Mini Normal 2304: Conway's Game Of Life [GAME OVER!]

[Roden]

Managed to read the whole game. I gotta go take care of a couple errands but I'll leave some shotgun reads.

Spoiler: STD

i feel like town sheep is more present

I think this is factually incorrect

can you link a recent town game?

wouldnt a mafia game where I was very present be what ur looking for here lol

viewtopic.php?t=91038 - last game we played together, town, I think I was very apathetic
viewtopic.php?t=91019 - town, apathetic

https://www.mafiauniverse.com/forums/th ... ur-Power-1 - mafia game, completely different site context, but I was in the top couple posters each day

I just think it's weird to suggest that my uninvolvement is alignment-related for me. I just find this game deeply unappetizing

it's not necessarily whether you're apathetic or not, it's more of a vibe where i expect you to do more. i dunno it's possible uninvolvement isn't alignment indicative. i just felt like you made some nothing posts and i guess i'm trying to see where it comes from.

i didn't really pay much attention to the game we just played together but i wanted town games to compare your town to this, i remember some of your recent scum games we've played together in.

let me think about it some, it doesn't seem like anyone else agrees so i'm gonna UNVOTE: for now.

Complaining about a player not doing much/feeling that they should do more is classic town!STD.

Spoiler: STD

Bellaphant

Doctor Drew

Random Nurse

bob3141

Dunnstral

Peregrine

Espeonage

Quiet Owl

Not_Mafia

sheepsaysmeep

Hu Tao

humaneatingmonkey

Bellaphant

Doctor Drew

Random Nurse

bob3141

Dunnstral

Peregrine

Espeonage

Quiet Owl

Not_Mafia

sheepsaysmeep

Hu Tao

humaneatingmonkey

Bellaphant - no change. nothing to really go off of.

Dr Drew - went from scum to lean scum. I guess it's just a vibe i was fooled by Dr. Drew in Boons ahoy and i want to be wary of the slot so i'm leaning scum more than i normally would but it's not really predicated on anything other than i'd like to see more from him.

Random Nurse - no change. just seems townie i've liked their pushes they're hunting.

bob3141 - went from scum to null. I'm a little worried about their seeming obsession with me and would like more from them on other slots. i think my scumread was preliminary and some posts pinged me a certain way but i don't remember exactly what so i'm comfortable putting bob in the null area

Dunnstral - went from town to null. my townread was premature. i think dunnstral being engaged is something that could be town indicative but dunnstral's kind of fell off so i don't really know.

Peregrine - went from null to lean town. I think this one is entirely a vibe thing, peregrine barely posted when i made the initial list (I think) and so i put them as null. seeing their posts since then makes me not want to strike there.

Espeonage - I've already discussed.

Quiet Owl - changed from lean town to lean scum. i don't remember exactly why i town read them. their recent posting has not been great. too defensive, too little.

Not_Mafia - no change, i think i can sometimes read not mafia but i'm not there yet.

sheepsaysmeep - went from null to scum. i've gone in depth on this.

hu tao - null to lean town. Went from little posts to more posts. i'm not sold but i'm feeling okay with hu tao, seems a lot like how they behaved in the past two games i played with them where they were town.

humaneatingmonkey - null to lean town. i guess i wasn't really sure where i felt in the first list but by the second list i felt more comfortable with the slot, i believe that hem believes in their conviction. i think they're wrong about espe but i believe they are uninformed towards espe's alignment.

This is the only post of his that gives me pause since it's giving me war flashbacks to Fuzzy Friends Coalition. I don't have a substantial reason for feeling this besides a sinking feeling in my gut; I don't think it's even based on tone, it's just a vibe. But everything else I've seen from his ISO pings townie so idk, it's not really something I want to pursue.

Spoiler: Hu Tao

VOTE: Hu Tao

would like to see more from them. perhaps their thoughts on drew?

VOTE: owl

I've barely posted in the past 3 or 4 days and still have more posts than you but your reasoning for voting me is 'wanting to see more' sure. This seems like you just noticed me saying I'd catch up later and wanted a reason to vote someone

I don't see how people are reading Hu Tao's recent posts as town. Basically all they did is defend themselves against suspicion and vote the person who voted them. I mean, maybe that doesn't make them mafia, but how are people going from null to town?

Suspicious post. Reads as someone that is upset that someone they know is town is being townread unrighteously. How about instead of saying why I'm not town for those posts, explain why I'm mafia?

I don't see how people are reading Hu Tao's recent posts as town. Basically all they did is defend themselves against suspicion and vote the person who voted them. I mean, maybe that doesn't make them mafia, but how are people going from null to town?

because this is exactly how they behaved in previous games with them when they were town

So you're saying that you think I'd be uncapable of doing this as scum? If so, what would be hard to replicate?

i feel you'd be different in a noticeable way

How do you think I'd act then if it would be noticeable

Is vig this common on this site? I swear every game I've been in has one good work though

I felt meh about Hu Tao early on but these posts won me over. They feel like they come from an overtly townie perspective that would be hard to make as scum, not because they're particularly hard posts to fake but because I don't think scum is likely to think of faking this perspective. Though, the last quote in particular is admittedly very easy to fake but I think the emotion there is genuine.

Spoiler: Owl

hi hello

why

do we have a wagon forming this early

Do you think page 1 *wagons* are serious?

What I do wonder is why you appear concerned for humaneatingmonkey.

the man-eater is fine. it is odd to see a wagon form on page one though, and particularly odd that you took that so personally so quickly. why is your immediate response an attempt to discredit me and then deflect my point by misinterpreting it?

Guess I'm trying to parse through what you mean by he's "fine."

Doesn't sound like you've been playing that long if you think three same votes on page 1 is odd, tbf.

What does kind of ping my radar is you saying it was taken personally—could you share where, because this does sound like you're adding something that isn't there.

Again, it seems like you're adding things by saying I'm attempting to discredit you. Three same votes on page 1 does not a wagon make, and they are rarely if ever serious.

And what I said to you, Sir, is that it appears to me that you are concerned over HEM's safety. That's just how it seems to me so if you react defensively I can't help that.

oh that's a good logical post, this'll be a fun game. was getting really tired of having to read through walls of fluff in other ones.

"what you mean by he's "fine."" my lawyer has advised me not to comment further. he's me in a suit. he's demanding a raise. our budget doesn't allow for this. he may go on strike halfway through the game
"taken personally, you're adding something that isn't there" that's true actually. mostly, my original post wasn't directly addressed at anyone, so i wasn't expecting it to get jumped on that fast. pleasant surprise that it did

"attempting to discredit you" did not like the tone of "Do you think page 1 *wagons* are serious?". seemed more like "hey this post is 100% definitely silly and irrelevant, trust me and ignore it immediately" to me rather than "this is a flawed and suspicious assumption". the first is a lot more scum-typical.

"concerned over HEM's safety" more focused on poking people over votes at the moment. way more interesting. occasionally things explode!

So, reading this, I'm interpreting this as a deflection, because you didn't actually respond to my question about what you meant by him being "fine." I'd like you to simply explain what you meant instead of not actually answering me.

Just so we're on the same page, I was responding to you saying that I had taken something personally, where nothing of the sort was in any of my prior four posts. When you ascribe things to me in your opinion that didn't actually happen, it does make me stop and question why you would add things that weren't there.

Could you please clarify the part in yellow so I don't misunderstand you?

As I see it, I saw it more as being concerned that someone had 3 votes on page 1, and that Scum tend to be more concerned with self-preservation. 3 votes for the same person on page 1 isn't uncommon, and I don't think it's worth worrying about an immediate lynch at the very start of the game over that. The apparent concern (at least as I saw it) worried me a bit more, because it smelt a bit like trying to protect someone else.

After Nurse's flip I think this spewed Owl as town. I also liked how they tried to parse Espeon VS HEM, it felt unbiased and like they were genuinely trying to figure out whatever the hell was going on between those two. Norwe has also been super townie immediately after replacing in and I feel comfortable locking in this slot as town. With the Strongman dead, one of the Bodyguards should be on this slot at all times.

[Roden]

Spoiler: Massive quote wall involving HEM

The vibes in this thread are gnarly in a bad way!!

I will catch up tonight or tomorrow (it shouldn’t take long!) but as a sneak peek I see Espeonage as mafia still, and they are coming across poorly in their interaction with HEM!

I’m unsure if it is personality or not at this point, if I am honest but Espe keeps choosing to take the worst faith interpretations and assumptions!

I take umbrage with this because I feel like I am giving back what I am getting from the thread. I think why I am so frustrated by this game right now is that there is so much rhetoric for the sake of posting, and it is so stagnating.

So I don't think I am taking worst faith, I am taking logical subtext. Like contrast the iso of someone like sheep vs someone like monkey and tell me with a straight face that you think monkey isnt being obtuse on purpose.

If you're town, you might be tunneled. Imagine I'm town and re-read the game.

I understand you scumread me. But just imagine the two worlds beside each other co-existing. Like Schrodinger's humaneatingmonkey. If you're town, that's what you're supposed to be doing anyway.

We're the top two posters by far, we can chill for a bit as well.

Agree. I've been doing this. You have no idea how chill I am by the standard of how pushy I really am.

Like the chance that one or more scum are literally unreadable because of how fresh the game is and the number of disengaged slots is so high that not going after you monkey is the bit that wouldn't doing my job as town.

The first part of your sentence is why you should be reconsidering if you have the right perspective. You've been going after me. You scumread me. Fine. Go after the other slots as well because they're disengaged and unreadable.

I.. I. What?!?

Would you mind if we speak in a more civil manner from now on? I feel like the frustration isn't even warranted when I'm extending a lot of goodwill toward you. If I am not clear in my speech, ask for a clarification.

Would you mind if we speak in a more civil manner from now on? I feel like the frustration isn't even warranted when I'm extending a lot of goodwill toward you. If I am not clear in my speech, ask for a clarification.

This is textbook narcissistic gaslighting, and I really hope you are scum and this is not a personal trait.

@Mod: Please replace me, all goodwill is gone.

Okay then, sir. Post-game, please enlighten me on how that's "textbook narcissistic gaslighting". Maybe if you really feel that I harmed you in anyway, you should report me to the mods. I mean it.

I maintain that I do not believe that I ever escalated my language to verbal abuse or anything that might be described as "going at someone's throat". Suspicion, interrogation, and pressure are a natural part of this game. I'm willing for an outside arbiter to judge the situation accordingly and make their sanctions, but otherwise, I suggest we move on from this.

I'm on like page 15 but I think Espeonage is town from this recent interactions like

If you're town, you might be tunneled. Imagine I'm town and re-read the game.

Like the chance that one or more scum are literally unreadable because of how fresh the game is and the number of disengaged slots is so high that not going after you monkey is the bit that wouldn't doing my job as town.

The first part of your sentence is why you should be reconsidering if you have the right perspective. You've been going after me. You scumread me. Fine. Go after the other slots as well because they're disengaged and unreadable.

this feels like weird undermining stuff? HEM is saying things in a way that seems like they're suggestions when they're really just hollow refutations

Would you mind if we speak in a more civil manner from now on? I feel like the frustration isn't even warranted when I'm extending a lot of goodwill toward you. If I am not clear in my speech, ask for a clarification.

I do not see the goodwill and this feels very manipulative. Like, using the fact that Espeon is upset in a situation that I quite understand why he would be frustrated in and trying to use it to paint him as being unreasonable. Also Espeon is being described as "uncivil" when I think it's more like "peeved" which makes 375 scummy cuz HEM is painting themself as the rational party while Espeon is being coocoo for cocoa puffs.

I thought Espe's read that HEM was trying to control the game was weird, but it feels like he was being toyed with(? idk if that's the right term) here and it's very scummy

I don't appreciate your defensiveness. Your recent posts come off as frustrated, short, and lashing out.

You weren't like this earlier.

Question is whether or not this behavior is a Scumtell of yours or not.

Anyone else here have experience playing with Scum!Espeonage?

in the same vein it makes these posts kinda scummy too

Also Espeon is being described as "uncivil" when I think it's more like "peeved" which makes 375 scummy cuz HEM is painting themself as the rational party while Espeon is being coocoo for cocoa puffs

It's frustrating being treated like that when you're trying to have a sincere conversation and you get things like "What?!?"

I never described anyone as "uncivil" and "coocoo". Stop this.

That's cool buddy. Just don't put words in my mouth that makes me sound like an abusive jerk. That's beyond this game.

I see nothing in that exchange that suggests an attempt at a sincere conversation. You're mostly just being "hoohoo but what if I am a townie??" (which isn't all the groundbreaking) and trying to compare your mannerly ways with Espeon's frustration

pedit: ok soz the Vizzy pizazz is an unstoppable razzmatazz but my intent wasn't to make you sound like a jerk. I don't think I'm wrong about the way you're trying to present yourself in comparison to Espeon though. You did ask Espeon to speak in a more civil manner though and I don't think Espeon was really being that unreasonable. I smell optics shenanigans

Okay nice dude, your portrayal is definitely fair and not a total misrepresentation of me. I know because your quotes include "hoohoo" in them, which usually found when you're portraying someone fairly.

my intent wasn't to make you sound like a jerk

we're cool. don't do it again. i know what you're doing, but sometimes lines can be crossed.

I'm not "comparing" my "mannerly ways" with Espeon's frustration. I was asking Espeon to speak with less attitude. If Espeon is frustrated, then so am I.

I feel like the frustration isn't even warranted when I'm extending a lot of goodwill toward you.

you're painting Espeon as irrational in comparison to your goodwill. But there wasn't much to respond to, and I don't see your goodwill.

i get it. you need to undermine me. have at it.

tally ho!
how do you think my word choice here reflects on my alignment?

i think one of you is about to be eliminated, and you're in a bad spot so you're extra desperate to regain control of the narrative - which starts by undermining me. so desperate that you're willing to paint me as a huge jerk because... what other alternatives do you have?

I'm confident that this is scum!HEM. HEM was feigning civility to tilt Espeon, who was very clearly not in a good mood and was an easy target. Invisibility caught onto it and called it out, which HEM responded to by making an emotional outburst and trying to reframe the situation as Espeon and Invisibilty making personal attacks against him and his character. This is blatant sea lioning, and HEM

loves

doing that as scum.

Spoiler: HEM/Nurse interactions

VOTE: sheepsaysmeep

projection. this guy is the real wolf among sheep.

But how would you know?

VOTE: humaneatingmonkey

hi hello

why

do we have a wagon forming this early

Do you think page 1 *wagons* are serious?

What I do wonder is why you appear concerned for humaneatingmonkey.

the man-eater is fine. it is odd to see a wagon form on page one though, and particularly odd that you took that so personally so quickly. why is your immediate response an attempt to discredit me and then deflect my point by misinterpreting it?

Guess I'm trying to parse through what you mean by he's "fine."

Doesn't sound like you've been playing that long if you think three same votes on page 1 is odd, tbf.

What does kind of ping my radar is you saying it was taken personally—could you share where, because this does sound like you're adding something that isn't there.

Again, it seems like you're adding things by saying I'm attempting to discredit you. Three same votes on page 1 does not a wagon make, and they are rarely if ever serious.

And what I said to you, Sir, is that it appears to me that you are concerned over HEM's safety. That's just how it seems to me so if you react defensively I can't help that.

Monkey's eagerness to control the game feels scum-motivated. And this is only exacerbated by the fact that they have really gone hard on the proverbial low hanging fruit.

The lining up of lynches is also always something I am watchful of. In both cases, if owl is town, monkey is just being negligent if town, and if owl is scum it's a very aggressive theater strat. The common thread being that monkey lining up lynches is poo poo.

vote: humaneatingmonkey

IIRC HEM had 3 votes at this time.

Could it be reaching for low-hanging fruit adding a fourth vote at this time?

HEM, how do you read Invisibility currently?

The obvious agenda to undermine me was enough to call them scum. There was no inch of fair assessment of my alignment - he immediately went after me to discredit me.

He doesnt even bother doing anything else. It's a 13-p he just replaced into. Where are his other reads?

Hm..

VOTE: Invisibility

These posts on a surface level feel like scum trying to lead on a townie with bad reads. But I think these are actually planned distancing interactions, since if they're both scum and one of them flips, it makes the other look good and a third person (Owl and Espeon) look worse. Furthermore, in 220 HEM already injected the idea that scum were setting him up to push townie wagons before anyone even flipped or was close to flipping, yet instead of doing anything to reassess he just...kept pushing those slots. Like as if he only wanted to mention that to help set up a narrative.

VOTE: HEM

[Roden]

roden did you have a read on me from your catchup

I think you tonally sound town. Your frustration with Day 1 was palpable, the say the least, but you notably became re-invested in the game whenever things turned in your favor. I think that kind of energy tends to come from town. Though, I understand that you tend to lean towards apathy as town, so it does stand out that you haven't really felt apathetic this game IMO. And according your own self meta in 337, you're displaying a scum tell by being so active; you're currently the third most active player in the game. Then again, I have to think "why would scum!Sheep tell everyone one of his scum tells and then enact that exact tell?"

So, I overall read you as town, but your meta feels funky.

[Roden]

im a town bodyguard finder. i visited someone but they're not a bodyguard. unfortunately it's not peregrine.

There's zero reason not to claim results here btw. Outting a player as "not Bodyguard" doesn't give scum useful information.

[Roden]

I don't know. Maybe he is. Really have no way of saying. He doesn't look like he's town, either. Think I'll park my vote here. VOTE: Not_Mafia

Tbh i'm not that eager voting N_M because they're not gonna react to the push or become more readable, they don't usually seem townie when town, nor scummy when scum. They're just a blank spot. A joker card in a game of mafia to make it harder because they could be anything and you'd never know.

I'm thinking a wagon on him will make the slot more readable.

Who anti-spews?

N_M. There's no event in the game where he'll ever be readable. It's so easy to just flip him and make the game easier. And there's a lot to be gained with that wagon. If it flips scum, it's gonna reveal I'm town... first of all. And if it flips town, there's a wagon everyone can see and read.

Just keep me for a day more. I like playing the game.

Hmmmmm

[Roden]

Scum!HEM probably just fake claims Bodyguard Finder here. It's Cop-adjacent, so it's theoretically good enough to buy him an extra day and better than having to actually claim Cop and risk getting counter claimed.

[Roden]

I would be ok with following my plan.

VOTE: N_M

What's the benefit to voting out NM over HEM today when HEM is only asking for one extra day to live? He already seems to plan on dying to tomorrow's vote, so what's the point?

[Roden]

I would be ok with following my plan.

VOTE: N_M

What's the benefit to voting out NM over HEM today when HEM is only asking for one extra day to live? He already seems to plan on dying to tomorrow's vote, so what's the point?

There are benefits to both sides.
If HEM's role was confirmed to be real do you think it would more likely be town than scum?

Honestly? I think it's useless for both alignments. Scum have multitasking, so they can be a Bodyguard and still use the factional kill. So a town Bodyguard Finder could get a positive result and I still wouldn't town lock them. On the other hand, it sounds useful for scum but how useful is it really? Cool, they can learn if someone is a Bodyguard...then what? If an investigative role exists, they want to find that, so I guess they know a Bodyguard isn't investigative (unless they're a combined role), so maybe they aim somewhere else with their NK. But five million Bodyguards stop them from making the kill they want to make anyway, and they apparently only had a single Strongman shot, who is now dead.

So idk, it just feels too convoluted to even exist.

[Roden]

I feel like I worded that in a confusing way

Basically I don't see the point of the role's existence, and trying to figure out what alignment it belongs to if it does exist feels too much like "outguess the mod" to me

PE: Yeah, he needs to claim results.

[Roden]

Going back a bit, I'm confused on why HEM is bargaining for an extra day because he isn't offering anything. If he wanted to prove his role, he could've just given his N1 results instead of waiting to get more results on N2. He isn't making any serious pushes, and even after he admitted that scum could be using him as a battering ram to vote out townies due to bad reads, he didn't reassess even after being wrong on Espeon and Nurse. He

still

only wants to flip the same slots he scum read on Day 1.

[Roden]

He still only wants to flip the same slots he scum read on Day 1.

this isn't true

???

i really think this game is solved. everyone else is townie except Roden's slot probably and Norwee. i don't want post mortem reads but I think last scum is in {n_m, Roden, Norwee}.

thing is, you really can't rule out half of scenarios in this game without flipping n_m. it's the hardest thing to do yet it's supposed to be easy.

this game is probably Quiet Owl, T3, and Doctor Drew/Invisibility - gun to head

Town!T3 just votes and sees what happens, imo

If quiet owl flips scum then we're in a reality where the scum team is absolutely shit at controlling the narrative.

VOTE: Not_Mafia

We should do this. Why haven't we done this?

[Roden]

i want an extra day because if we flip n_m and he flips mafia, I'm spewed town. i can also do norwee's test and confirm my role.

hey, I'm goners anyway if I'm scum. and you're all gonna need to flip n_m anyway.

You still haven't claimed your N1 results. Also you told everyone to kill you today if you were wrong yesterday, so what changed?

alterantively, if Quiet Owl flips town then the gamestate is scum sheeping or hiding behind my dumbass to carry a goat to endgame for them to slaughter. immediately eliminate or investigate me night 1 or day 2 to confirm this and avoid this situation.

Or does this not count since you were wrong about Espeon instead? If so, what's the difference here?

[Roden]

HEM's posts and responses aren't doing anything for me, it's all just fear mongering and AtE. And now he's just making excuses so he doesn't have to give his results.

[Roden]

I think the arguments to vote HEM are compelling but there’s still that doubt gnawing on my mind dunno.

HEM how would you describe your own scumplay? And why wait with posting result? Seems a bit fishy how ur stalling.

Pretty sure he's stalling so that there's time for people to get cold feet and just settle for voting NM.

[Roden]

there's a rush to fulfill my elimination.

i would like to remind everyone that my role is pro-town and confirmable

do not pee your pants in the excitement that you have caught scum. I'm still town. and i will flip town. the narrative against me is completely warped to have a one-sided interpretation where I'm only scum and there's not world where i am town. that's a case made by scum who just wishes to eliminate me and not sort my slot.

so if you're town. chill and really assess if the things i claim, the actions i make, are really gonna come from scum exclusively. and if it even make sense for scum!me to be saying it.

This is cool and all, but you're not doing anything. You're not scum hunting, and even more egregiously you aren't analyzing Day 1's wagons even though you believe scum hyped you up into voting townies.

[Roden]

there's a rush to fulfill my elimination.

i would like to remind everyone that my role is pro-town and confirmable

do not pee your pants in the excitement that you have caught scum. I'm still town. and i will flip town. the narrative against me is completely warped to have a one-sided interpretation where I'm only scum and there's not world where i am town. that's a case made by scum who just wishes to eliminate me and not sort my slot.

so if you're town. chill and really assess if the things i claim, the actions i make, are really gonna come from scum exclusively. and if it even make sense for scum!me to be saying it.

This is cool and all, but you're not doing anything. You're not scum hunting, and even more egregiously you aren't analyzing Day 1's wagons even though you believe scum hyped you up into voting townies.

Also, there is no "rush". This set up is using plurality for elims, so even if you don't have 50% of the votes by Day end, you'll still be voted out as long as you hold the majority. Which you currently do.

[Roden]

even more egregiously you aren't analyzing Day 1's wagons even though you believe scum hyped you up into voting townies.

my iso is very clear on what i think about day 1 and what i want to do in this game, thank you very much

The ISO in question:

I am willing to explore other people's POVs because mine is obviously flawed.

I have no problem Norwegian speaking what he thinks the narrative should be.
If you do not want Norwee to dominate the conversation, you need to speak more often and tell us what the narrative should be.

I have not re-read. I plan to distance from the game and read it again, empty cup style. I also think N_M could be scum. Would you be open to eliminating him?

[Roden]

I visited Save The Dragon and he's not a bodyguard

Why STD?

[Roden]

i think hem is town though. i think the way he posts isn't really calculated and seems more off the cuff

hem who do you townread that you want to hear from regarding claiming your result? for me, i don't know if you need to but you might to appease people, i'm not certain that scum knowing someone is or isn't a bodyguard is really tipping the scales; either the scum want the bg dead now or they're going to avoid that person and probably kill a bg anyway if the bgs are paying attention

Who do you want to vote then? And do you have an updated read on my slot?

[Roden]

Which posts from STD gave you Bodyguard vibes

[Roden]

That doesn't answer my question

[Roden]

[Roden]

I'm town

Who do you want to vote?

[Roden]

How should I know? I'm not reading the game

You mocked HEM earlier, we know you're reading

[Roden]

Just let the Vig deal with him

[Roden]

Shooting me over NM when I was talking and he wasn't was kinda wack