Mini Normal 2296: Pictures of my cat, sometimes | GAME OVER

[Mitillos]

VOTE: Flippy for lack of random vote and for saying "1st".

Hey, DeasVail, Dessew, Malakittens. Which of you should I be sheeping?

[Mitillos]

Ah, a newbie on the site. The "Mafia Scum" and "Townie" titles are just indicators for amount of posts made.

[Mitillos]

Alright. How about you? I believe you've been absent from the site for some time.

[Mitillos]

I deduce Im obv town, obviously. DEB is as well, tchill is chilling, coasting.
collegegoer obvscum

That’s where I’m at so far. Gut vibes, don’t question

So, I get having gutreads on tchill and collegegoer. But how, precisely, did you get a gutread on DEB, who hasn't posted yet?

@Dessew: Good to hear.

[Mitillos]

It's the fact t3 joke voted then vla'd.

so why is this scummy behavior

It's an easy in on day 1. You post something funny then take off for a bit. Hopefully avoiding the entire day.

He gave an irl reason for why he'd be absent, the V/LA was only for about a day and a half, and then he came back as promised, when over half the players had made fewer than 5 posts. Hardly looks like lurking behaviour intended to avoid 10 days of posting. Do you still consider it scummy? Do you have any reason to doubt he was actually at Model UN?

@Mala: I went through a bunch of your (non-newbie) games since August and every time you were town you started with a random vote not on the mod, whereas as mafia you generally didn't vote at start (except once, I think). What's with the Shea vote?

[Mitillos]

@bri: Except that's not what Tchill did; he has gone out of his way to explain why his behaviour is categorically different (albeit in a very weak way) from T3's. Ultimately, Tchill is simply objecting to T3's politeness, of all things. Also, whom would you have expected college to switch to, instead?

@Mala:

@Mala: I went through a bunch of your (non-newbie) games since August and every time you were town you started with a random vote not on the mod, whereas as mafia you generally didn't vote at start (except once, I think). What's with the Shea vote?

[Mitillos]

@bri: No, Tchill's stated issue with T3 was the silly vote with the intent to be absent, as he keeps returning to that (see his posts in isolation). As for collegegoer continuing to sheep tchill, that'd be silly if they determined that there was nothing there, wouldn't it? And DEB's entrance happened between the sheeping and this realisation, so I don't see why collegegoer couldn't have simply decided not to sheep, if they saw someone with scum potential.

So far, I've only done that with Mala, but I will eventually probably check others too. It's still early, though, so I'm in no rush.

[Mitillos]

@Mala: Splendid! That's all in order, so you can be leanTown, for now.

@Dessew: Whom are you asking about redFF and bristep? Because it looks like you're asking redFF.

[Mitillos]

@Mala: Splendid! That's all in order, so you can be leanTown, for now.

@Dessew: Whom are you asking about redFF and bristep? Because it looks like you're asking redFF.

Sorry, I meant to ask you (and to quote #105).
I'm on my phone, and it seems it got a little too crowded on my screen to notice the mistake, my bad!

Nothing from them has pinged me negatively, thus far. I think bri may be jumping to conclusions, but we'll see how that goes. As for redFF, I get where he's coming from, even if I'm agnostic on Tchill's alignment at this time. I'd say bri is still at null, redFF maybe leaning slightly town.

How about you? Any reads you'd like to share?

@DV: Why is Mala scum? Is there anyone else who is, as well?

[Mitillos]

Ahaha, Dessew, you're so full of shit. DEB was town but CCGeek was scum when neither had even picked up their role PMs yet?

VOTE: Dessew

[Mitillos]

I raised it now, because I didn't pay attention to your list before. I assumed it was a joke, given that you were going on about it being either in ascending or descending order and you were going to keep which a secret, as well as saying that you shouldn't give reads on page 3, while giving a full list on page 3. I ignored it then, but now you're saying it was serious, of course I'm going to look into it. But hey, I'll give you a chance to convince me I'm wrong. Answer the following questions for me (and I'll even be nice enough to not touch the reads you said you don't want to go into):

1) How was CCGeek distinct enough to be your biggest scumread by post 51, when he hadn't even picked up his role PM?
2) In addition to the above, why was KK in the middle of the readlist by post 51, without any posts?
3) Why does KK make no sense as mafia now, with a total of two posts thus far?
4) What did T3 do to be scummy by post 51?

And here's a bonus question that I don't actually care about, but others should:
5) How am I between bri and redFF in terms of suspicion, when you gave specific scummy behaviour spelled out for them, but not for me?

[Mitillos]

Uh. I have definitely made an accusation. I'm accusing you of being mafia and making your reads up with little actual reference to the gamestate (i.e. "full of shit").

You're the one who brought distinctness up. You said everyone was distinct by the time you made post 51, and that meant you could put CCGeek, KK, and for that matter DEB at vastly different positions of your reads, despite them having no posts at the time. You claim that this is based on whether these players were being mentioned by others, but the only player to mention CCGeek before post 51 was bri placing a (seemingly random) vote on him. You had bri on the top half of your list, so by your stated reasoning, a neutral or lean-scum player was trying to associate themselves with a missing player, and this somehow made the latter's flakiness a scumtell. This is all labyrinthine nonsense.

Your responses are disjointed and incomprehensible at best. I'm very happy with my vote, yet my happiness is tempered by you rolling scum, meaning we can't be on the same side.

[Mitillos]

3 players, with one smack right in the middle of the list.

Anyway, I don't know if they'd have predicted it, but either way, the response of "well why didn't you point it out earlier" is weak, so...

Also, feel free to ignore my supposed confidence. I am, in fact, always perfectly happy to be proven wrong and look elsewhere, if someone has a good case opposing a scumread I make.

And, to be clear, Mala isn't *actually* getting a free pass. I just think I can totally see her doing everything she's done as a joke (especially post 133) so I don't think it's anything to be worried about, at this time. She's a slight town-lean for post 96, and because she didn't try to waffle about my question regarding her meta. It's possible that I'm slightly biased in her favour, here, but I'm also perfectly happy to see cases against my town-reads, as long as they're cogent.

p-edit: I'll read Dessew's post later, I'm taking a break now.

[Mitillos]

@Dessew: I voted you, I don't think an accusation can be more stark than that. Anyway, my point is that you are claiming there was a difference between CCGeek, KK, and DEB, but have actually failed to provide any such difference, since your only attempt to do so was effectively "people were/weren't talking about them". There was zero discussion around both CCGeek and KK, so you can't honestly claim the discussion around them was different.

Sure, that's not what you said, word for word, but if we accept your reasoning, that's what comes out. It's not a misrepresentation at all, it's an explanation as to why your position is completely untenable without some kind of cognitive dissonance (e.g. because your reads are fake).

And yes, I was being a bit silly with the dramatic stuff, but thanks for tacitly admitting you're mafia. Also, I'm not a very huggy person.

@DEB: I don't think either Dessew or I were particularly heated...

@redFF: Thoughts on Dessew?

@T3: Thoughts on Dessew?

[Mitillos]

So, I'm not sure why so many of you are ignoring the issue with Dessew's reads not making any sense, but let's add something new to the case against them:

College's role is a hot topic

College's (now Enchant's) role could be something that might be discussed in a certain PT somewhere, but as far as I can tell, it hasn't been directly discussed in the thread (except by Dessew) for several pages. It was briefly mentioned by DEB and DV in passing, and technically implied as a topic by KK's vote, but that's about it.

Also, I'd like to point out the following interesting bit of strange behaviour:
- Post 145: Dessew claims that anyone who votes for College, DEB, or Flippy, needs an absolutely unassailable case. Fails to question bri and college about their votes on college and DEB respectively. The former is supposedly a scumread, so that can be explained away, but why is the latter not being questioned?
- Post 166: T3 votes DEB. Dessew does not question this.
- Post 171: KK votes Enchant (college). Dessew does not question this.
Where are the demands for unassailable cases?

[Mitillos]

Oh by the way do you have questions to me

Who is scum? Why?
Who is town? Why?

[Mitillos]

You'll note that I said "might", because in fact, I don't know if this particular setup has daytalk (although I hear it's become more the norm nowadays than e.g. 5 years ago). Nice try, though.

Still doesn't explain why you didn't ask college about his vote on DEB. Also, what pressure? KK just said "I am [happy to see Enchant]" and voted second.

[Mitillos]

You'll note that I said "might", because in fact, I don't know if this particular setup has daytalk

This is a brazen lie. Let's take a look at the original quote:

College's (now Enchant's) role could be something that might be discussed in a certain PT somewhere

Does anyone actually believe that here Mitillos is wondering if there's daytalk in this game? Come on, no, he isn't. He wanted to be snarky, but slipped up in the process.

Massive misrep. I didn't say I was wondering, I said I used the word "might" because I didn't know whether daytalk existed. Calling something like that a slip is incredibly disingenuous and a huge reach. Anyway, I will remind everyone how this whole argument came about: because Dessew was claiming that somehow college's role was a hot topic, when it clearly wasn't. So, either this was in Dessew's imagination, or it was happening elsewhere. And yes, I was being snarky, but that doesn't mean I was joking about that.

----
Regarding the lurking thing, if Dessew hadn't pinged my radar, I'd have been going after lurkers. Lurking is anti-town.

----
@T3: I think Dessew is saying that we are mafia together, that you voted for DEB at a time when Dessew was too busy to demand an explanation from you, and that you did this specifically so I could then push Dessew on the fact he wouldn't demand an explanation from you. I'll be honest, I like this, because it's a massive Batman gambit, and I am a Batman enjoyer. As it happens, it's complete poppycock, because there would have been no reason to assume Dessew would say nothing about the vote to begin with, so all this would have done is get more scrutiny onto T3 unnecessarily.

[Mitillos]

EBWOP: Sorry, not DEB. Whomever the vote in post 166 was on.

[Mitillos]

T3 is someone I just wasn't thinking about at all before his name got brought into the mix, and that might be saying something. Looking over his posts, they are mostly about himself, and the others do not provide convincing evidence of T3 trying to progress his reads. Where's the follow-up on 208, for example? And in a gamestate where one of T3's townreads (Dessew) was looking in danger of elimination, why stay on the "placeholder" DEB vote?

Yeah, this is good analysis. Consider my vote as being on both Dessew and T3, as of now.

[Mitillos]

@T3: I'm not switching my vote, just in case someone hammers accidentally or on purpose before you can respond, but let's pretend that I have switched it and that you are one vote away from being eliminated. You should probably claim and also give your reads now.

@Flippy: Any chance you can avoid making multiple individual posts in a row? You can just put responses to multiple things in the same post.

[Mitillos]

I dont really like that t3 claim? Gives him until day 4 before we get any sort of confirmation. The claim makes me feel he is more likely to be scum

VOTE: t3

This is e-1 I believe?

No, tchill13 moved away from T3, before redFF voted.

Not sure I like T3's claim. Too long to pay off as a PR, and a very swingy action, as it depends on the player's reads. Speaking of which, I'm not liking the absence of reads (which I specifically requested from T3). He mentions issues with Tchill and DV, yet votes for Mala, without elaboration.

I'm going to stay on Dessew, for now. I'll be back in about 7-8 hours, I think.

[Mitillos]

I'm not as happy with an Enchant elimination as with a Dessew one, because to me Enchant looks like a shitposter in the style of Not_Mafia, so their posts look NAI to me. Either way, Enchant, someone claimed intent to hammer, you should probably claim now.

Not a fan of directing T3. Either he dies and then we learn stuff, or he survives the night and we see what he says tomorrow. Directing him will almost definitely lead us to some ambiguous situation, where we learn less, e.g. only one person dies, and we can't be sure what happened.

p-edit: Well, never mind, that works too.

[Mitillos]

What I'm interested in is the fact that Enchant moved onto me, after T3's claim. A Dessew vote would have been far more viable, as it had reached L-2 before people switched to T3. So, why did Enchant not move there but decided to join Dessew and vote for me, instead?

VOTE: Dessew

[Mitillos]

I checked normal guidelines and there's no SK in mini normal games. So im willing to take t3s word for it on his vig claim. T3 who did u shoot.

Can you link the guidelines, so we can all confirm?

[Mitillos]

Splendid. What do you think of Enchant skipping Dessew and voting me?

[Mitillos]

Not to speak for Drew, but I can tell you why I think you're wrong. Dessew clearly believed that Flippy, by coming in and pretty much immediately saying that DEB was confTown, was basically claiming mason (as seen in post 258). Given that Dessew believed this (and presumably that everyone else believed it as well), it would make sense that as scum he would want to kill both Flippy and DEB, since this means he believed they would never be voted out. Imagine getting to LyLo and having to deal with 2 confTown. No mafia would want that.

It makes perfect sense for Dessew to kill his townreads, if he expects them to be treated as confTown by everyone.

[Mitillos]

Not to speak for Drew, but I can tell you why I think you're wrong. Dessew clearly believed that Flippy, by coming in and pretty much immediately saying that DEB was confTown, was basically claiming mason (as seen in post 258). Given that Dessew believed this (and presumably that everyone else believed it as well), it would make sense that as scum he would want to kill both Flippy and DEB, since this means he believed they would never be voted out. Imagine getting to LyLo and having to deal with 2 confTown. No mafia would want that.

It makes perfect sense for Dessew to kill his townreads, if he expects them to be treated as confTown by everyone.

How much of this is influenced by our knowledge now that DEB was a mason, which scum wouldn’t have known at the time of deciding their kill?

@DV: This was to explain to bristep why scumDessew killing DEB made sense. Since it is based pretty much on the fact that Dessew believed that Flippy crumbed masons with DEB (And that everyone else believed it too), whether DEB (and for that matter Flippy) was actually a mason is irrelevant.

@bri: There's (at least?) two masons. Gotta start somewhere, gotta start sometime.

[Mitillos]

I think she means facetious.

[Mitillos]

If we keep going with like half the player base not trying to solve or giving thoughts then town could snatch defeat from the jaws of victory.

Seems like I lose more than I win when scum is yeeted day 1. Very annoying.

Sounds like you're scum too often, then. :þ

[Mitillos]

Sorry for not talking for so long, was concentrating on other stuff. However, I figured I'd respond to a few things by Dessew, mostly for the benefit of everyone else, and add a few more comments.

@Dessew: Enchant voting me was not important, in and of itself. The reason being that they gave zero reads. It's been said that "it looks like distancing", implying we're scum together, but given our low interaction that would only pay off if one of us got eliminated, which Enchant couldn't have expected, as neither of us had a lot of votes at the time. As for the hammer, I was obviously on the site at the time of the hammer. Do you really think I wouldn't have asked my scumpartner to give me the opportunity to gain townie points by letting me have the hammer? Especially with 4 hours left.

You ask why Enchant would move to me instead of stay on T3. T3's claim, while made in a way that made it inadequate for some of us, was still a PR claim. Enchant probably believed that the wagon was about to die and moved on. You claim that somehow the fact that they moved to me (a less viable wagon) is more significant than the fact that they didn't move to you (a more viable wagon). This is not the case, but let's pretend that it is. What does it tell us? Well, Enchant probably believed that the second largest wagon would be the one to be eliminated. But at the time, the second largest wagon was yours. Can't move there (for some reason). So where to go? Well, the only place that makes sense is an extant wagon that can hopefully be given steam. At the time, there were two. One on me and one on Mala, each with one person on them. Enchant picked mine, for whatever reason and that was that. So, if the vote on me was significant (I don't think it was), it should in fact make me more of a townread than a scumread.

Also, you're saying that my points are sloppy, gibberish, and so on, but you haven't really given any examples of this. The most you do is say I refused to address the fact that Enchant voted for me, but there was nothing to address. I can't really speak to what another person was thinking (I can only try to surmise some of it, as I did above) and, ultimately, it doesn't matter to me. What does matter to me is the thing I identified as far more important: Enchant not voting you, when you had a large wagon on you. Also, aw, thanks for calling me fairly intelligent. You are, as well.

------------------

Dr. Drew: Yeah, I can suffer from a bit of tunnel-vision at times, but I'm pretty certain I found scum, so can you blame me? Also, the Enchant thing wasn't guidance, it was a request for their claim, that's all.

------------------

Regarding Mala, I think she's just been alternately lurking and low-effort trolling. I think this is NAI. (Then again, I thought something similar about Enchant, so obviously take this with a grain of salt.)

------------------

Kop: T3's point is that killing him on N1 and on N2 doesn't change anything for mafia. Either he hits one of them on N1 or he doesn't. He claimed odd-night, so he can't shoot anyone on N2. The only reasons mafia would have to kill T3 on N1 would be if they didn't believe his odd-night claim, or didn't have someone better to shoot (e.g. the people they believed to be masons, i.e. Flippy with DEB). But given that he tried to weaken his claim by making it "novice", it might seem strange for him to be doing a two-layer thing, where he has a full vig role, claims novice odd, then just odd. So, yeah, there's no reason to assume that mafia would feel any real need to kill T3, whether they saw the novice claim or not.

[Mitillos]

@DV: I think we are at Dessew 4, Mala 2, Bri 2, Drew 1, with Kop not voting.

@Dessew: Of course it's nomnomnom on you. You've done zero townie things and any number of scummy things both yesterday and today. No, I didn't hammer Enchant, because they had not claimed at that time and because I thought you were a better elimination, as I wasn't scumreading Enchant. If we got closer to deadline, I'd hammer to avoid ending the day without an elimination, but that's neither here nor there.

You say I refuse to consider the fact that Enchant moved their vote to me. I already have considered it. From what I can tell, there was no deep meaning to it, other than going for the largest wagon that wasn't on scum. I have already said as much, so I'm not sure what more one would need here.

@Kop: you're still not engaging with the fact that the second shot would be on N3, so there is no difference from scum's POV between killing T3 on N1 and killing him on N2.

[Mitillos]

I mostly agree with red's reads (with him instead of me in the list, obviously), except for Dessew being all the way down (and maybe DV and red swapped? Maybe Drew and mala too?). bri, Drew, and potentially mala if absolutely necessary, are eliminations I wouldn't necessarily oppose, except in the sense that I have a clear preference for a Dessew elimination. The cases against those three don't exactly sway me, but there are question marks there.

[Mitillos]

Hooray, I win the "everyone else got prodded" contest!

OK, joking aside, Mala's early game seemed like alternating between low-effort trolling and waiting on other people to generate content to think about and comment on. Now, it's less that and more bored lurking with slightly more content than would make it prod-dodging thrown in. Starting to become more in favour of a wagon there.

I'm going to have another look at bristep's ISO along with the cases on them, in case there's anything there, but I will reiterate that Dessew is by far the scummiest player as far as I can tell.

[Mitillos]

Sounds about right. Any reason you didn't announce that, DV?

[Mitillos]

My reads were terrible. And would probably have continued to be, had I survived to D3. Mafia should have just gone for the players they knew to be PRs, then they'd have skated into victory.

Great job by redFF and the townies left at the end. Thanks for saving it.

[Mitillos]

Look at it from this perspective too: Town made only one miselimination but managed to be in a 3v1 situation on D4. Had there been just two miseliminations in the first three days, town would have lost. This is usually absurd in a 13-player game.

The vig only became as powerful as he did because 1) you didn't kill him and 2) town did its job.

I do agree that the setup was incredibly swingy, though.