667: Random C9 (Game Over!)

[Scheherazade]

Hello, I'm replacing Moospiker.

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[Moospiker's replacement] we have already massclaimed, everyone has claimed townie, can you confirm Moospiker's claim that you are indeed a townie? Please answer immediately.

Yay, thanks... I inherited a cop role. I dunno what to say about the 'bread-crumbing' but I'd probably point to the lack of counter-claim.

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This is, like, one of the few games I'm in that no longer has any utter n00bs in it, so it should be reasonably worthwhile as far as games to replace into go.

o.o

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On my first read-through, I think eldarad looks scummy. I think he misrepresents people when asking questions and when called on it. I think he has a rather cavalier attitude about who gets lynched: I especially don't like the sudden suggestion that he'd agree to a JDodge lynch after eldarad has already claimed vanilla. I don't like the timing of his votes (or his reaction when called on them).

I think all that's pretty straightforward. I can post a more comprehensive analysis of his posts if that's called for, but I think it would involve a lot of pointing out the obvious.

That said, I'm rather in favour of his lynch. He's the most consistently scummy player here in my eyes. His methods and attitude are unhelpful. As he's already claimed vanilla, he's either scum lying, town lying or a vanilla townie who just prioritised survival over protection of potentially concealed power-roles. If he's town and lied earlier about being vanilla, he should probably claim now.

I do think that Machiavellian-Mafia and Vi haven't gotten the attention they deserve: most of it's been focused on afatchic/Kuribo, eldarad, charter and, to some extent, JDodge, who comes and goes...

I'm not a fan of Machiavellian-Mafia's nominated lynchees, so reading more into him and hearing more from him, once I know what I'm looking for, will be nice.

I'm neither here nor there when reading Vi. I'm not sure "most town-tells" is how I'd describe Vi, nor do Kuribo's points make much of an impact on me. I'm inclined to think my problems with Vi's predecessor were ultimately personality issues and not strong scum tells, but again, closer reading and questioning is called for from me.

[Scheherazade]

@eldarad: I do think that it's most likely the case that you're lying as mafia both because you appear scummy to me and because your values seem skewed for a town player. However, the chances that you are a power-role, which I think exist because there's a >5/7 chance that we have two pro-town power roles, keep me from wanting to quicklynch you.

Though I'm uneasy about calling for a claim from somebody who might be a power-role, I think you're close enough to a lynch to warrant it.

You were questioned for the timing of your votes but responded to only half the accusation. It was:

In addition to actions of his predecessor, I find the timing of elderad's votes on afatchic and charter to be troubling, more so for afatchic. In both cases it seemed like he tries to get his feet wet in expressing suspicions and then pounces with votes when the suspicion for both had increased to levels that make his votes look better.

You responded by saying that you helped to create the suspicion surrounding those two players, but I think you dodged the point. If you're trying to create suspicion, what prevents you from casting your vote with your initial line of attack?

I don't like the "so if I don't vote" part. Why didn't you vote? That seems to be the more important question.

It may be a premature judgement, but I was talking about a couple times when it felt like you were asking obvious questions or were restating things poorly. Two examples are:

1) You charge afatchic to reconcile two statements. I think the posts you quoted contained the answer to your question. afatchic made himself clear: he thought Moospiker was a newb, but still didn't approve of him playing the "excuse me, I'm a newb" card. I think that this question, and your perseverance with it, was unnecessary and perhaps calculated to add more suspicion to afatchic than his posts actually warranted.

2) Vi accuses you of misrepresenting people, i.e. Machiavellian-Mafia. You ask how you've misrepresented Vi. Either it was unintentional and wasteful or it was intentional redirection.

Last, I'm sorry that I was unclear. I meant "I don't like how Machiavellian-Mafia has chosen targets." By that, I mean he verges on a lynch all lurkers policy. I'm still not sure how to interpret it, but I think it's something noteworthy.

[Scheherazade]

With the current state 3 out of 7 players essentially non-existent (afatchic, JDodge, Moospiker), this game going won't go anywhere.

Plus JDodge has now broken his promise of analysis on afatchic. I'm now equally willing to lynch JDodge as elderad.

The only one of these three he didn't at some point advocate lynching was Moospiker, because of his claim.

Another week of absense from JDodge is the last straw for me. I'd say theres at least a 90% chance he's scum. Plus it's better to have an active player alive (i.e. elderad).

Unvote, Vote: JDodge

I now consider afatchic's offenses to be even greater than JDodge's.

Unvote, vote: afatchic

@charter and elderad and Vi: what do three make of afatchic's continuous trend of delaying his promises and not delivering them?

I don't mean to say the only reason he wants afatchic and JDodge lynched because they're not very active. But a combination of inactivity and unfulfilled promises seem to be most of his case against either. At one point he even mentioned afatchic as the least scummy person in the game save for Moospiker, due to his claim. Things changed, yes, but inactivity looks like the biggest one.

But I don't know yet. I only meant to mention it in passing.

[Scheherazade]

@Machiavellian-Mafia: Okay, fair enough. One more time, please, you view a lack of motivation to post as scummy because posting would involve scum-hunting, which is not in the scum's best interest?

I suppose I'm nervous about a few posts, including your individual post #32, where you list your top three suspects but don't include afatchic, for whom you were voting and your assertion that afatchic may have given up in this game because he was scum being attacked from too many directions.

The first makes me think that afatchic had your vote in spite of the fact that you didn't find him scummy. The second makes me nervous simply because I've seen afatchic ignore games where he is town due to high scrutiny.

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@Vi: I didn't mean to misrepresent eldarad: my objection was that eldarad hadn't really expressed any suspicion of JDodge at that point. By cavalier, I meant that he says he would agree to lynch somebody that he didn't think was scummy rather than allow himself to be lynched after his value as a town player had eroded due to the suspicion against him and his vanilla claim.

As for the second issue, I know that I'm not clear but I don't know what you don't understand so I'll try to restate the whole thing:

My gut feeling is that he lied about the vanilla claim. I don't quite know what it is about the claim: it's probably that it reads like an attempt to turn back the momentum against him, when read in context of Machiavellian-Mafia's preceding post and the vote on afatchic following it.

If he lied, he was either scum and should be lynched or town.

If he lied as town, then he should say that he lied, which is why I called for that claim.

Perhaps it was a silly thing to ask him: I just didn't want to accidentally lynch a power-role after my predecessor already outed our role.

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I forgot this ealier:

Unvote

.

I admit that I'm getting itchy for eldarad's reply. It's approaching forty-eight hours since his promise for a longer reply.

[Scheherazade]

Uh, long post.

In response to your second worry, kuribo = afatchic's replacement.

I took a long nap and I'm back. Sorry about that.

I have the same issues that kuribo raised with the first and third link in the chain between lack of motivation to post and scum behaviour.

I think denying information to the town by not posting is a strategy that scum can employ or a personality issue with town. Putting myself in your position, given that I/you find afatchic generally town, I'd lean towards finding his behaviour a personality issue.

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I disagree with your premise that suspicion can only be generated by placing a vote, and that therefore if I am not voting for someone I am not questioning them and/or being suspicious of them.

The issue was town suspicion. You voted after the town had become suspicious of afatchic and charter, correct? When drew attention to that behaviour, you said that you helped generate that suspicion.

Was it your goal to generate suspicion of afatchic and charter? If so, I must assume that as town you found them worthy of a lynch at the point when you thought they were worth lynching and therefore worth your vote. That's my confusion.

With regards to the afatchic questions, the quoted posts were:

im still

unsure about him

but in the opposite way, his remarks just

sound like

an agrevated newb

scum

to me.

charter i agree, i don't like it when people use the excuse that im new and im just now learning. while it may be true, its a terrible excuse because it can't be proven or countered.

my suspicion is def. on moospiker

, and if his play doesn't start acting more like a townie to me then

i may very well put him at L-1.

You misread his statements. I bolded words to help. Was that intentional? I sort of think it is, especially because you maintain the initial read instead of rereading it. The correct read is:

"He sounds like aggravated newb scum to me."
"I suspect him and may put him at L-1."

They are consistent.

I think my perseverance was totally necessary and afatchic's posts should be considered far more suspicious than most other players have attached to them.
...
I don't even remember this, and the fact that no-one else brought it up suggests to me that it wasn't significant to anyone.

First, you seem to think something can be significant regardless of the attention it gets from the town. I agree.

Second, I will have to ask Vi, but it appears that making the point you tried to dodge was more important to Vi than noting you were dodging in that instance.

To answer your other questions, it's counter-productive--wasteful--to ask somebody to back up a statement that wasn't made. I think it's a scummy dodge, but I can't prove that, which is why I left open the possibility that it was unintentional. Regardless of the intent, the effect was the same.

The claim wasn't necessarily scummy, other than the fact that vanilla is probably the safest claim for scum to make now. I just wasn't sure it it was true. I was explaining to Vi why I said "you should claim now if you lied earlier" to you.

Lastly, scrutinising players of the game is pro-town, I agree. However, it's exactly that the scum must do to get townies lynched. Therefore, I don't consider it a town tell per se. If you helped lynch scum that wouldn't otherwise have been lynched, my view of it might change. Does that answer your question?

[Scheherazade]

The issue was the timing of my vote. If you want to discuss "town suspicion" then we can do so. But that is a seperate question to the one you asked.
I still don't agree that voting is the only way of expressing suspicion - which is the basis of your question, even after the re-phrasing.

Elderad - In addition to actions of his predecessor, I find the timing of elderad's votes on afatchic and charter to be troubling, more so for afatchic. In both cases it seemed like he tries to get his feet wet in expressing suspicions and

then pounces with votes when the suspicion for both had increased

to levels that make his votes look better.

Now, a little critical reading exercise here. Did Machiavellian-Mafia mean your suspicion levels? If he did, then your increased suspicion makes your vote look better to the town.

Test: T/F? Saying "I think X is scummier now than before, so I'm going to vote for X" will make the town like your vote for X more.

Did he mean the town's suspicion? If he did, then your vote looks better when the town suspects the player you vote for.

Test: T/F? The town saying "we think X is scummy" will make the town like your vote for X better.

When you responded, you also said that you helped create the suspicion surrounding those players. Did you mean you helped create your own suspicion surrounding those players? If so, you admit to voting based on delusion. Did you mean the town's suspicion? If so, you're now being disingenuous, which is one of the reasons I think you're scummy.

So...you think that I have intentionally lied about a fact that can be easily verified? Right...

Exactly so! Why do I think you would do that? See the bottom of the page.

The shift between those two posts is pretty dramatic, and IMO the catalyst for the change was charter's expression of suspicion in #85. Even so, I don't see anything in the intervening posts that would change afatchic's opinion from "unsure" to "I may put him at L-1."

Okay. You're right. They're two completely different expressions of uncertainty and afatchic should have to justify why he clarified his position after another player voted for his top suspect.

Reading Vi's reply in #467, it really does look like you're the only person who knows what the hell you're talking about here...

Responding to this will require another post. I'm now ninety percent sure you're saying things to waste town time. Therefore, I'll drop the point completely. I don't think that invalidates my case.

This appeal to emotion does help validate it, though.

So, I've been a L-1 or thereabouts for ages now, and I haven't been hammered yet. What do you all think that means?

I think it means I waited too long.

Vote: eldarad

Gratuitious observation of scummy behaviour! Looking at posts 291, 292 and 299. Summary: eldarad fabricates a quote; charter points out that the quote was blatant falsification; eldarad responds: prove it!

What does this show? eldarad will lie, hoping that no dumb sap will actually go through the game and laboriously show that he's lied. As I'm becoming that sap, I've hammered.

[Scheherazade]

My first move isn't going to be that impressive, I'm afraid.

As my predecessor already claimed cop, I'm happy revealing that kuribo did turn up town.

I also need to note that my internet connection's acting up. Fixing it's going to be a bit delayed by the holiday, I must admit. I'll try to keep my posts up, but please consider me V/LA until Monday.