Mini 698 - Georgetown Mafia - Game over

[Jazzmyn]

Hello, all.

I'm replacing in, and while I did read a bit of the thread before volunteering, I think I only looked at the last couple of pages at the time. Now that I've looked at the

first

few pages, I plead inebriation and/or insanity for having volunteered to sub in at all.

Okay, all kidding aside, I will read the entire thread and catch up as soon as possible. It may take a couple of real life days before I can offer anything of substance, in light of the length of the thread and some of the posts and in light of my work schedule, but I am happy to be aboard.

Regards,
Jazz

[Jazzmyn]

Hello, all

I'm just checking in to let you know that it has taken longer than I expected for me to be able to catch up on this game from the beginning (boy, there are a lot of 'wall of text' posts!) but I have read it all and should be able to put together something of substance no later than Sunday.

In the meantime, I noticed that my predecessor had a vote still standing, so for now, I will:

Unvote

Regards,
Jazz

[Jazzmyn]

Okay, after reading the entire thread a few times now, including the numerous Walls of Words and Quote Wars, I’m going to start posting my initial thoughts. This is quite long so I will have to break it up into a few posts and then finish the rest tomorrow.

Apoth

:
Apoth seems to be flailing about somewhat, and some of his actions are hypocritical. For instance, on page 17, he is still going on about Ceph being suspicious because he "tried to quicklynch Evil" and didn't give reasons for his vote back on page 3. Apoth says he thinks that's "a little stupid" and believes "

when you're past the random voting stage

that you that you have to give your reasons to vote on someone" and that keeping them concealed "might be a scum at work, trying to scrape a quick kill." He criticizes Ceph, saying that Ceph was hiding behind a shield by saying he did it to get reactions and get out of the random stage. However, when Ceph did that, it was way back on page 3 during the random voting stage. This is hypocritical of Apoth because Apoth cast a random vote without explanation long after page 3, and long after the RVS had ended: in his post 134 (page 6), he asked if it was past RVS yet and was told in the very next post 135 that it was indeed past the RV stage, but then on page 7 in his post 150, he makes a random vote against Corv with no reasoning, no case, "just to get discussion moving" and confirms that it just a random vote on page 8 in his post 176.

Then he still continued to accuse Corv of being scum, but never with any actual reasoning, just bald allegations such as in his post 227: "I think that Corvuus now is either scum trying to rile up people against townies who don't post much, or an extremist townie” before eventually unvoting him in his post 296 on page 12 when he says he thinks Corv is town.

Apoth is flip-floppy as has been pointed out by others, and as is apparent by his voting/unvoting and his scum/not scum posts about other players, and he seems to back off pretty quickly when challenged. I noticed that he seemed to be lurking but would always show up pretty quickly when he was named or questioned by another player (I noticed this before I got to the part of the thread where Llama pointed it out) and I thought it rather suspicious, too.

As for the whole issue of his mentioning that he thought SC might be a townie fake claiming doc, I think that has been blown way out of proportion. It is a fact that some townies do fake-claim doc when their neck is in the noose. It's a very bad thing to do, but some players do it. It happened in the first game I ever played here, in fact. So, I don’t think his suggesting that as a possibility was suspicious, but his follow-up sure has been dismal, what with him flip-flopping all over the place about it. So, in this case, it isn’t the “initial sin” that rankled, but the follow up.

Some of his posts scream out "newb" more than "scum", such as asking YT if his call for more votes on Atlas was a call for pressure votes or lynching, and his post saying he's confused about whether there is a doc because the rules don't specifically say so. On the other hand, some of his actions seem downright scummy, such as cherrypicking SC's earlier quote to mangle it and allege that SC said "claiming vanilla townie is suicide" and that it was scummy because it indicated that SC was faking a power role, when it is apparent, in context, that that is not what SC said at all.

So, overall, Apoth gets a 5 on my scum scale at present.

Atlas

:
Atlas strikes me as town. While he has continued some arguments too long and become repetitious over them when it was neither necessary nor desirable to keep beating a dead horse, I think he’s town. He did a very good job defending himself against YT’s attacks, and has been actively scum hunting and contributing meaningfully to the game.

Ceph

Ceph seems mostly town to me. I don’t find his page 3 vote without explanation to be scummy as it was in the RVS, after all and there was not going to be a lynch at that point in time. When he later voted without explanation, he said he would explain later, and he did so when it was appropriate to do so. Although he hasn’t been contributing much to the game for the past week and a half, I don’t think he’s scum, at this point. But his fall off in meaningful participation looks like it coincides with the SC roleclaim so I’ll reserve judgment and give him a 1 on my scum scale.

Part 2 to follow.
Regards,
Jazz

[Jazzmyn]

Part 2

Corv

:
Corv strikes me as town. Perhaps over-exuberant town, but town. I don’t find fault with his position on Primate as I, too, found the posting-in-pictures to be anti-town at best, and possibly scummy , but either way entirely unhelpful to the town. In my view, Corv explained himself well about that, particularly with his post #152. I also think that his case against SC was pretty solid (but see below).

I liked his post 320 asking about the problem with pair-hunting instead of scum hunting because I think he nails some of the real issues with doing so on Day 1. That post struck me as quite thoughtful and genuine, as he acknowledged that he had erred in focusing only on scum-pair Primate & SC at the time, rather than scum-hunting singularly.

I think Corv has taken some of his arguments too far, though, and become overly repetitious when it is unnecessary. I think he went a bit over the top with his multiple posts about Macavity “withholding thoughts” for posting one post to avoid a prod, since Macavity has been reasonably active in the game, scumhunting, etc. It may have been different if Macavity was not participating at all, but that wasn’t the case.

As I said above, I think he made a pretty good case against SC, but I wish he would have stopped repeating it over and over again later in the thread when it was no longer necessary. There are only so many WoWs on the same subject that others can take, especially a replacement trying to absorb all 19 pages at once and especially WoWs with broken quote tags. It’s exhausting, and I agree with YT when he said in his post 419 that at that point it was distracting from scumhunting and increasing the noise:signal ratio since it was clear at this point that SC was not going to be lynched today. Similarly, repeating the same question and quotes to Apoth over and over again about why he changed from thinking SC was scummy to thinking he was townie fake claiming doc. Apoth’s answered and his answers aren’t likely to get any better by repetition.

Still, I’m currently of the view that Corv is town.

Elmo

:
Elmo is a bit difficult for me to get a solid read on at present. He seems lazy but I’m not certain whether that translates into scummy or not. By this, I mean that he has not contributed much but tends to ask others to do his scumhunting for him. E.g. His first post is 265, “Hi. Who’s scum?” It would be more useful to give others his own take on who the scum might be than to ask others who the scum are. Also, his post 283, in which he asks what the case is against MM. It would be more useful for him to read the thread to see what it is, and this indicates that he didn’t read Macavity’s case against MM. Similarly, his post 465, in which he says that he “feels like maybe he should be looking closer at Ythill-Llama” and asks for someone to sum it up for him in a paragraph. Again, this indicates laziness as he wants others to summarize things for him, without putting in much effort himself.

Some of his posts seem hypocritical, too. For example, he says that he thinks zeppo looks scummy, without explaining himself, and yet says to Ceph, “Apoth is fine. Explain yourself.” Similarly, he said that SC seemed to “be a human echo” but then in post 414, he parrots Macavity wrt asking Apoth why he thought SC was scum.

Overall, Elmo is a 2.5 on my scum scale at present.

And to respond to Elmo’s posts in which he addressed me directly or mentioned me specifically,

Hi, Jazz! You’re scum, right?

Wrong.

I also feel the rumblings of a Jazzmyn wagon deep in my stomach.

Knock yourself out. Just don't forget to bring evidence.


Part 3 to follow.
Regards,
Jazz

[Jazzmyn]

Part 3

Llama

:
Llama strikes me as town. He posted excellent and thorough reviews of the thread when he replaced in, with lots of insights and good scumhunting, and has posted lots of good analysis since then, too. His case against YT makes sense to me, and YT’s defence to it thusfar is not convincing.

Macavity

:
Macavity mostly strikes me as town. While he flip flopped around a bit over the Primate/picture posting thing (particularly when he purported to give Primate an ultimatum but then backed away from it), he’s been reasonably active and scum-hunting for the most part. I don’t find his case against MM compelling, though, and he went after Corv for saying that if a townie is attacked, he should attack back, when that wasn’t what Corv had said at all.

As I mentioned in my review of Corv above, I agree with Macavity that Corv was overplaying the “withholding thoughts” bit, but I also think that Macavity overplayed the “omgus” bit wrt MM.

I agree with Macavity that zeppo naming MM as a suspect because of SC’s actions towards MM makes little sense. I can only surmise that zeppo had to mean that was so only if the two of them were a scum pair, and I can only surmise that zeppo’s inexperience (in light of his join date) was the cause of his failure to articulate that. But, I’m just guessing, obviously, since I cannot possibly know what he was thinking.

I disagree with Macavity when he says that he thought YT was winning the YT/Atlas argument, since I think that Atlas certainly made the stronger arguments and that YT’s case against Atlas seemed somewhat contrived.

Oh, and I fully concur with quoting as often as possible from the late, great Freddy Mercury.

Overall, Macavity is a 1.5 on my scum scale at present.


As you can probably tell, these are listed in alphabetical order. I will finish the last three tomorrow (or as soon thereafter as possible). I initially collected the posts in sort of PBP fashion during my reviews of the thread and today has been taken up with cutting those down to the most salient points and writing things in paragraph form rather than longs lists, for the past several hours and now I have to get some laundry done, so I can't finish this tonight.

Regards,
Jazz

[Jazzmyn]

I am posting this in all of my games.

Mod: I will have no access from tonight until December 7 or 8.

Players: Due to a sudden death in the family, I have to leave tonight for the west coast and will not return until Sunday, December 7 or Monday, December 8. If you feel that the length of my absence will be unduly detrimental to the game in light of the stage of the game, etc., please do not hesitate to seek my replacement, as you see fit. I do not want my absence to hold things up or kill the momentum of a game, so I will take no offence at all if you think it's best to replace me.

So, I will either see you back here next week or I will see you in another game in the very near future.

Regards,
Jazz

[Jazzmyn]

Hello, all.

I am back from the west coast, and I thank you all for your patience and understanding, and for not replacing me in my absence. I have a lot to catch up on (both in real life and in my 5 ongoing games) after nearly a week away, but I will do so as quickly as possible. I think that in this game, it makes most sense for me to scan the posts since my last post prior to my departure for questions directed to me specifically and respond to those first, and then do a more detailed catch-up and more thorough analysis after that. I believe that my analysis of a few more players from my initial review when I subbed in is also outstanding, so I will finish that as well as soon as possible.

Regards,
Jazz

[Jazzmyn]

I apologize, folks. It has been a lot more difficult for me to catch up on things this week than I anticipated after my week away, but I am working hard on it, and will be able to contribute more very soon, and definitely before the deadline.

Regards,
Jazz

[Jazzmyn]

Jazz - Hows catching up going? We are close to deadline.

I am nearly finished. I've tried to update on the players whose profiles I still have outstanding as I go along, which has made it more complicated, but one way or another, I will post what I have on Wednesday.

Regards,
Jazz

[Jazzmyn]

At long last,

Part 4

Mitey:

I’m not sure what to make of MiteyMouse. While it’s true that her vote against Macavity looked like an omgus vote, she did say that her vote was because she had read somewhere that the third vote on a person was a scum vote. It’s an extremely silly reason to vote for someone, certainly, but she did say that was the reason for her vote before she voted, which tends to indicate naivete rather than scumminess. More strange to me is MM’s focus on Ceph to the exclusion of nearly everything and everyone else, for reasons that are very weak. Most of her posts are either to say that she’s been busy and will post later or to repeat the same weak claims against Ceph over and over again. She did, however, say that she read the YT-Llama WoWs and thinks that they are both townies. Then, she returned today (ETA: okay, it was ‘today’ when I started writing this) to say that all of her notes are gone and that she’ll re-read and assemble them, only to ask to be replaced shortly thereafter. So, I don’t have a very good read on her, for those reasons.

In the result, MM is a 2.5 on my scum scale at present. (ETA: I haven’t incorporated her replacement’s posts into this yet)

SCoug:

Where to begin? Early on, SC voted Corv for making a simple error about Primate not voting even though it was difficult to see Primate’s vote down in the lower right hand corner of one of his picture posts. He defended Primate and his use of pictures without words, claimed that they were fine and went after Corv for asking Primate why Primate suspected SC, without ever questioning Primate himself about why Primate thought that SC was scum. He still didn’t until defend himself against Primate’s accusations at all until he was pressed hard by Corv. His responses to Corv were not at all convincing, and finally in his post 189, he came around to realizing that yeah, he should have perhaps responded to being Primate’s accusations and yeah, maybe Corv had a point. No kidding. Also, in the midst of his post 189, he says, “I am not saying Primate has no evidence of my being scum” – what on earth? - while simultaneously doing some kind of quasi-role-dropping by saying that he “has reason to believe” that Primate’s claimed posting restriction is real. Then he backs off entirely in his next post, #239, saying that he agrees that Corv seems to be exuberant town rather than scummy.

He also voted zeppo for “rolefishing” when it seems apparent that zeppo wasn’t doing any such thing. About the Macavity/SC clash about SC answering for MiteyMouse, I didn’t think there was anything really wrong with SC answering Macavity’s post about MM’s alleged omgus vote, but I did find it odd that SC went on to elaborate on it further in his next post even after Macavity made it clear that he wanted MM to answer for herself. It looked a bit like scum-coaching by SC if MM is also scum, or buddying if MM is town.

Then, there’s his wishy washy voting – he’s all over the map, voting on what appear to be whims and then unvoting when his vote is criticized by someone else.

Then comes his doc claim. Personally, I don’t believe it, but he appears to be off limits for today in light of the claim.

Then he votes for Apothecary because Apoth said that he thinks SC is town false claiming doc to avoid being lynched (parroting Macavity while doing so, and followed closely by another vote by YT). In my very first game here, a townie false claimed as doc so I know that it happens and it is not a scum-tell to suggest that it happens. Yet, SC continues this tack, saying in later posts that “suggesting that a vanilla is fakeclaiming to shield from his or her lynch is a good way to bankrupt your credibility” and that he can’t think of any other situation other than Kokusho’s Gambit (which is not at all the same circumstances) in which a townie would claim doc. He comes back to this over and over again, saying that townies wouldn’t fake claim doc, but this is bogus because townies do, in fact, falseclaim doc to try to shield themselves from being lynched.

Some of the WoWs between Corv and SC were painful to read (especially the ones where SC messed up the quotes) and I don’t want to go through them all again at this point, but I’m pretty sure that I followed them all during my prior read-through and they left me with serious concerns about SC as a result. SC was right in his post #463 when he said that Apoth misrepresented him, though. Apoth did.

SC goes on to say in his post #476 that he’s “been driven to claim doc on day one before (Newbie 630), and I really was the doc in that game. The Mafia had a roleblocker, and they opted to block instead of kill me, but even though I ended up losing I managed to avoid getting lynched. “ Why the word, “really”? If you were the doc in this game and in that game, wouldn’t you be more likely to say, “I was driven to claim my doc role on day one in another game, as well” or something like that, rather than “I was really was the doc in that game” ? Perhaps it’s semantics, but perhaps it’s a genuine slip-up.

Then, there are those odd exchanges between SC and Apoth, in which SC tells Apoth not to be pessimistic and to fight back, hinting that Apoth is town, insinuating that he doesn’t think Apoth is scummy any more (around 550, 551) and yet, when asked to name his top two suspects, SC says in his #561 that they are Apoth and Llama, and shortly thereafter, he pretty much handwaves away all of Apoth’s explanations – even though it was SC who had encouraged him to fight back – and calls him scummy, seemingly following YT’s lead. Shortly after that, he posts to say, “Let’s get to lynching Apothecary, guys.”

Nothing about SC sits well with me, I’m afraid, and hasn’t the entire game. He gets an 8 on my scum scale at present.

Ythill

By virtue of the alphabet, this leaves YTHill. My notes on him are quite lengthy as well, and transposing them into paragraphs will take a bit of time. Since there is a deadline looming, I am going to skip the detailed post on him for now, so that I can get back into the game, add my views on the newer posts, and cast a vote before the deadline. That said, I am suspicious of Ythill, and he is probably sitting around a 5 on my scum scale at present.

Regards,
Jazz

[Jazzmyn]

Holy cow. Look at what the last couple of pages have brought. The turn of events on the lynching block is quite staggering, but not unwelcome.

SC is highest on my suspicion list and I don't believe his claim, so I guess I should put my money where my mouth is. I understand the alternate argument that he should be spared for now because he has claimed doc, but I have to say that I also agree with dispensing with the notion that just because someone claims a power role on Day 1, they should be automatically given a pass. It's that notion that makes a fake power role claim on Day 1 such a favourite of scum, after all.

I'll wait a bit in case SC has anything more to say, but I am willing to hammer him before the deadline.

Regards,
Jazz

[Jazzmyn]

Well, hmph. I spent quite a lot of time dissecting Ythill's posts (and even doing some meta on him) during the night phase and I had pretty much convinced myself that he was scum. I fully expected to start this day with my lengthy analysis on him and a vote, and now I see that it was all for naught.

So, back to the drawing board.

Rereading some of the others and knowing now that SC was, in fact, scum I'm leaning towards Macavity or MM(OGML) at present. I'm not seeing an Apoth/SC scum team, and a late-replacement bussing by OGML would be a brilliant play, but I'm going to have to read again after I get back from Christmas shopping, which I really must go and start now.

I'll be back later tonight, though.

Regards,
Jazz

[Jazzmyn]

If there was more than one mafia group, they would have a family identifier, like "Russian Mafia Roleblocker" or something. I'd take this as pretty much confirming we only have a single mafia group. Not sure how more than that is going to work in a mini normal of 11 players, anyway.

Those are good points, Elmo, and when taken as a whole along with what happened overnight and along with SC's odd posts about possible setups, possible factions and such, I am inclined to think that there is just one mafia group.

I really doubt there's a second scumgroup, but SC's paranoid setup speculation about the possibilities of two scumgroups makes me think there's a good chance that only one scummo is left alive.

This is a good point, too, and it makes eminent sense to me. Now, the trick, of course, is to determine who that remaining scum is.

I came back last night after Christmas shopping and wrapping presents, and started to re-read the thread very carefully from the beginning. I got through the first 17 pages and then, literally, fell asleep at my desk exhausted, only to wake up in the middle of the night to toddle off to bed before continuing my shopping and wrapping today. So, I still have pages 18-29 to re-read, and I hope to find something previously overlooked that might shed some light on the identity of SC's scum partner, but so far, I haven't found a whole lot of substantive evidence, but lots in the way of "gut" reactions to a couple of players in particular. *Sigh* Oh well, I'll continue my re-read and my notes tomorrow and then see what patterns emerge that might be helpful.

Regards,
Jazz

[Jazzmyn]

Something else just twigged (but it won't make any sense to anyone who wasn't personally involved in a specific previous game, and it would take far too long to explain to anyone who wasn't) so I'm just going to go ahead and:

Vote: Cephrir

Regards,
Jazz

[Jazzmyn]

I honestly don't know.

Colour me skeptical, but when someone feels the need to say, "honestly," in response to a perfectly reasonable and legitimate question, I tend to suspect that they are lying.

Because of this.

It takes four votes to lynch at deadline, so anyone who would actually prefer MM being lynched and isn't currently voting Apoth should feel free to vote her. For example, Cephrir.

So, you, an IC, refrained from voting for the player you purportedly believed to be most scummy until someone else prompted you to do so long after the time for you to cast your vote arose? That strikes me as very odd, indeed.

My vote is staying where it is.

Regards,
Jazz

[Jazzmyn]

Apologies if I can't be motivated to try very hard with my lynch blatantly imminent.

Is there some

better

time to be motivated to try?

Regards,
Jazz

[Jazzmyn]

Sorry, all. This weekend has been far busier than I expected so I haven't been able to re-read, and I have to go out to a family birthday dinner tonight. But I will re-read and catch up no later than tomorrow.

Regards,
Jazz

[Jazzmyn]

Hi, all

The timing of the site going down was unfortunate for me as it was down by the time I got home from work on Monday, and while I had lots of time to play early in the week, I had next to no time to play in the latter part of the week. However, I have all weekend now, so I will definitely catch up soon.

Regards,
Jazz

[Jazzmyn]

No need to prod me... I am here but I have been re-reading from the very beginning of the game and trying to look at all of the posts with as critical an eye as I can, knowing what we know now, and I am taking new notes (since the old ones may no longer be valid in light of what we now know for sure), and real life has interfered a bit as well, so I am only up to page 22 so far.

Regards,
Jazz

[Jazzmyn]

@mod - prod jazz

, she is intentionally ignoring this game at this point it would seem

No, I'm not ignoring it at all. I have finished re-reading all 34 pages and now have twelve and a half pages of new notes that I have to analyze/summarize. I'm trying to find connections or lack of connections between players that may not have seemed significant prior to SC flipping scum and Ythill flipping town, so it's taking me a while.

Regards,
Jazz

[Jazzmyn]

What I did was I went through the entire thread, noting posts that included suspicions or criticisms of others, and posts that included agreement with or possibly defences of others. Then I created a spreadsheet to plot out the information, hoping that by studying the spreadsheet, some patterns might emerge that would give further insight to SC's possible scum partners.

I have spent an inordinate amount of time on this - more hours than I care to count - but unfortunately, I don't seem to be able to pick out very many useful patterns from the results. At least not yet. Perhaps more will emerge as I add to it. Or maybe I've just wasted an inordinate amount of my time on this, and should just go back to trusting my reads and instincts instead of trying to use math, too.

On the up side, though, some observations at least: while looking at which players interacted with other players, whether negatively or positively, those who pointed their suspicions/criticisms against the highest number of other players on Day 1 are StrangerCougar and MacavityLock. SC pointed at everyone except MacavityLock, and he voted or FoS'd everyone but MacavityLock and MiteyMouse (although his vote against Atlas was a random vote at the very beginning of the game).

Both Cephrir and MacavityLock seem to have avoided SC's scumminess for the most part, although early in the game, SC voted for Cephrir briefly before unvoting him and voting for Corvuus because Corvuus voted for Primate, and FoS'd Cephrir for also voting for Primate. Now that we know that SC was scum and Primate/Ythill was town, it is obvious that SC was buddying, but with the sheer number of people he was voting and later unvoting and claiming to find them more townie, etc., it is difficult to tell which player(s) he was trying to protect and which ones he was buddying up to in order to throw as much confusion into the mix as possible.

Still, the relative paucity of input from Macavity on SC, and vice versa, and what appears to be avoidance of SC on Cephrir's part, stand out.

While MM was suspicious to some wrt her interaction with SC, I just don't see OGML as an SC scum partner given the way OGML came in upon replacement and led the late wagon against SC when there was a very viable wagon on Apothecary at the time.

I still think that OGML's case on Cephrir stands up, and I currently still think that Corvuus, OGML, LlamaFluff, Elmo, and Atlas/Qwints are town. The other thing that I noticed was that back in the beginning of the game, Cephrir made a comment about recognizing MacavityLock's name, which is not a big deal of course, but it seemed a bit odd when I later checked out Cephrir's previous games and saw that he had played a couple of games with StrangerCougar in the past as well. Maybe he just forgot, or maybe he didn't want to draw attention to SC? Also, he took an inordinately long time to come around to voting for SC, remaining focused on MM/OGML and yet was willing to hammer Apothecary without really having said much about him at the time.

I have a hard time seeing Apothecary as a scumbuddy to SC because of the way SC went after him on Day 1, but I can see that it is at least possible that SC was trying to bus him, since it is at least possible that the two most viable wagons were between two scum, as unlikely as the odds would have that.

On Atlas/Qwints, the one thing that struck me was that Atlas defended Cephrir and agreed with Cephrir on Day 1 (before Qwintz replaced in and voted Cephrir) and I think the only time SC commented on Atlas was to random vote him in his first post and to vote against Ythill for asking for more Atlas votes. But I got a town read on Atlas, and also, SC was praising Primate for his useless posts, and it was Atlas and Corvuus who were going hard after Primate for his fake posting restriction, so that tends to reinforce Atlas and Corv as town in my mind. So, I'm just throwing out this additional observation, for what it's worth.

Anyway, that is all I have for now. I do apologize for the length of time it took me to get this all together, but it was an arduous process, and in retrospect, I see that it was not the best way to try to put my data together. I need to streamline the process and/or abandon it for a better process, I think, but I didn't want to give up on it until I could see whether I could actually tease out patterns that might be useful.

Regards,
Jazz

[Jazzmyn]

Jazzmyn has been prodded.

My apologies. It looks like I accidentally deleted this thread from my 'watched topics' list when I was doing some clean up, but I've restored it now. I will catch up and post more very soon.

Regards,
Jazz

[Jazzmyn]

I am not convinced of the case on qwints, so I will not be hammering him at this time.

I have a bunch more to say, but it will have to wait until tomorrow, as I was off ill with some kind of stomach bug Thursday and Friday and just back into things today, and now I've gone and had a couple of glasses of wine tonight (okay, more than a couple) so I'd best leave my detailed thoughts to tomorrow.

Regards,
Jazz

[Jazzmyn]

I am uncertain about the Qwints doc claim. At first, I thought it made very good sense that Qwints would jump to the SC wagon as soon as OGML started it if he was the real doc, because I can see why he wouldn't want to have counterclaimed on D1, and why a real doc would be quick to jump on a late wagon started by someone else in those circumstances.

But I've gone through all of Atlas' posts and all of Qwints posts quite closely, and some things just aren't quite gelling for me.

Looking back, Atlas pointed suspicion at a lot of players (Zeppo, MM, SC, Apoth, Sminty, Primate, Ythill), but the ones he focused on mostly were SC and MM, and yet he never voted for, or even FoSed SC (or MM, for that matter) not once. He repeatedly said how scummy he thought SC was, but he still didn't vote for him when SC's first wagon formed and it got up to L-1 before SC claimed. That wagon, by the way, consisted of Zeppo, Corvuus, Elmo, Llama, and Ceph). And then when SC fake-claimed doctor, Atlas' only comment was that he was "not 100% sold" on the claim but that we should avoid lynching SC. That seems rather off to me. I would not expect a 'real doc' to counterclaim on D1, of course, but in that situation, if Atlas was the 'real doc', and given that he had repeatedly expressed the view that SC was scummy, he would then know without a doubt that SC was scum for fake-claiming doctor, and I would think that the response from a real doctor would be a bit more than saying he's "not 100% sold" on the claim, but let's not lynch him today.

Another thing is that Qwints says he didn't breadcrumb, which is fine and I have to believe that since it would not be in his best interests to say he didn't if he did, for obvious reasons. However, when I read the thread, I actually thought he

had

(before I read his post in which he said he hadn't), so something that I first read as a post in Qwints' favour now also makes me doubt the claim.

Qwints replaced in and voted for Apoth, said that he didn't like SC's claim but that it should be tabled for now, that Apoth was the most likely lynch and he was okay with that, then voted Apoth, and then pushed for an Apoth lynch repeatedly. But in Qwints' post #6, in support of his case against Apoth, he said that Apoth's suggestion that SC was a townie faking doctor "seems to be trying to inoculate SC against the counter-claim that (I believe) is coming eventually".

The quoted part looked like a breadcrumb to me. I.e. Qwints trying to hint that he knew there was a counter-claim coming eventually because he was actually the real doctor, and even throwing in the word "inoculate" which is, of course, a medical term. But Qwints says that he did not breadcrumb. So, that makes this post, which I initially viewed as being in favour of his claim, look instead like it goes against his claim.

Plus, there is the adamant nature of his post #28 in which he responds to Ythill's question asking if people suspect that SC is lying scum, why let Apoth hang when SC is voting for him and pushing for his lynch, by saying: "Because you don't lynch a claimed doc on D1 w/o a damn good reason." Followed by his post #29, "It's simply not worth the risk of a mislynch" (which others have mentioned) before he switched in his #30 following OGML's renewed wagon attempt on SC.

In his #32, he said that he thought SC scummy since he replaced in, but he hadn't actually even mentioned SC except in his post #2 when he said he didn't really like SC's claim but it should be tabled for now.

So, despite the fact that I got a town read off of Atlas and Qwints previously, I am not comfortable with the claim. It just doesn't seem like either Atlas or Qwints responded to the fake-claim in a manner that is consistent with a real doctor. Like I said, I would have been more convinced of it if Qwints had said he had, in fact, breadcrumbed with his post #6, but he says he didn't, and reading the thread

in situ

, it appears that he was just using that to bolster his case against Apoth.

Regards,
Jazz

P.S. More thoughts on other things tomorrow as I took my game notes to work with me today in order to ponder things over lunch, and accidentally left them at my office when I came home tonight.

[Jazzmyn]

Jazz, who do you think is scum?

I am still suspicious of MacavityLock, primarily because of the complete lack of interaction between him and StrangerCougar on Day 1. I still don't know what to make of you, Apothecary, since I cannot tell whether StrangerCougar was bussing you to save himself or not. I am leaning towards 'not', though, because MacavityLock was also pressing pretty hard to lynch you, so if he is scum, I really can't see both SC and ML going at you so hard.

As I mentioned above, I am not comfortable with qwints' doctor claim, which means that I am suspicious of it. And I am getting a bit of a bad vibe from LlamaFluff, as re-reading his posts gives me a sense of him sort of buddying up to me.

Regards,
Jazz

[Jazzmyn]

I have misgivings about qwints' claim (as I've set out above) and I don't think that my posts in this regard have been adequately addressed.

But MacavityLock is also suspicious to me and he is, apparently, away due to illness, so I am not going to advocate a qwints lynch while MacavityLock potentially enjoys immunity as a result of his own absence.

Regards,
Jazz

[Jazzmyn]

Qwints: Please address my post #906. I'd prefer that you address all of it, but at the very least, please address this part:

Another thing is that Qwints says he didn't breadcrumb, which is fine and I have to believe that since it would not be in his best interests to say he didn't if he did, for obvious reasons. However, when I read the thread, I actually thought he

had

(before I read his post in which he said he hadn't), so something that I first read as a post in Qwints' favour now also makes me doubt the claim.

Qwints replaced in and voted for Apoth, said that he didn't like SC's claim but that it should be tabled for now, that Apoth was the most likely lynch and he was okay with that, then voted Apoth, and then pushed for an Apoth lynch repeatedly. But in Qwints' post #6, in support of his case against Apoth, he said that Apoth's suggestion that SC was a townie faking doctor "seems to be trying to inoculate SC against the counter-claim that (I believe) is coming eventually".

The quoted part looked like a breadcrumb to me. I.e. Qwints trying to hint that he knew there was a counter-claim coming eventually because he was actually the real doctor, and even throwing in the word "inoculate" which is, of course, a medical term. But Qwints says that he did not breadcrumb. So, that makes this post, which I initially viewed as being in favour of his claim, look instead like it goes against his claim.

Regards,
Jazz

[Jazzmyn]

Jazz, are ML and I the only players you find suspicious right now?

No. See my #913. I am also somewhat suspicious of Apothecary and LlamaFluff at present.

More tomorrow.

Regards,
Jazz

[Jazzmyn]

I still have a hard time believing qwints' doctor claim in light of Atlas' posts when the claim was initially made and qwints' posts after he substituted in while SC's claim was still on the table. I also have a hard time believing that a doctor would choose to protect me rather than OGML on Night 2. OGML was the obvious choice for protection as a very strong and very experienced player who had done a fabulous job on Day 1 in leading the StrangerCougar lynch, etc.

I've read all of qwints' explanations in regard to his claim and his allegedly protecting me instead of OGML on Night 2, and while some of them do indeed sound reasonable and plausible, I am just not getting that 'ring of truth' feeling from them that I would have preferred. It probably doesn't help that qwints never did address directly my posts to him about his claim, despite being asked to do so.

Then, he recently voted for MacavityLock, apparently on the basis that he would rather ML be lynched than him even though he isn't convinced that ML is scum, but because ML is a potentially viable alternative lynch today.

Then, as soon as Elmo voted for Llama, qwints unvoted MacavityLock and voted Llama, apparently on the basis that he would rather Llama be lynched than him even though he isn't convinced that Llama is scum, but because Llama is a potentially viable alternative lynch today.

While I certainly understand the emotional aspect and frustration that would lead a real doctor to try to save himself by jumping on to another viable wagon, it is not pro-town to do so if you don't actually think the person whose wagon you're jumping on to is scum, just to save yourself.

Regarding LlamaFluff, I keep getting this nagging feeling about him, primarily because of how often he has mentioned me in his posts, how often he has claimed to be waiting for me to post before he takes action because I'm town, etc. If he mentioned me once or twice, no biggie, but mention me repeatedly and it begins to feel like scum trying to buddy up to me (in this case, perhaps because I was of the view that Llama got the better of the argument between him and Ythill on Day 1, because I was strongly of the view that Atlas was town, and because I thought Ythill was scummy). Llama's posts at the end of Day 2 calling upon me to post before he would cast his vote, to the point where he even delivered an ultimatum of sorts, saying that if I didn't post with a specific time at which I would present my most recent thoughts on my then-current re-read and analysis, he would hammer Cehphir, was particularly troubling as the underlying message seemed to be something like, "I am going to hammer Cephrir but if he flips town, blame Jazzmyn because she didn't post in accordance with the deadline that I arbitrarily set for her". Subsequently came his further comments that I am obv-town, which are being used by qwints (along with other posts by others re my townieness, not Llama's exclusively) as part of his justification for allegedly protecting me on Night 2 instead of OGML.

Here's something I don't understand:

I just cant ignore the ammount of WIFOM behind scum claiming the same role and not just countering each other.

I don't understand this. Why would a second scum counter StrangerCougar's doctor claim on Day 1 unless there was a second scum with his butt on the lynching block? The two players who were at risk of being lynched were SC and Apoth, not SC and Atlas/qwints, and Llama keeps saying that Apoth is town, "def town", etc. Please explain this, Llama.

In any event, my suspects remain MacavityLock, qwints, Llama and Apoth. So, as I see things at present, the most likely scum group possibilities are among these four players, which means one of these combinations:
SC/ML/Llama
SC/ML/qwints
SC/ML/Apoth
SC/Llama/qwints
SC/Llama/Apoth
SC/qwints/Apoth

The problem is that I don't know which is the most likely to be scum among the four, or which is the most likely grouping. I will think some more and read some more (and I will also answer some specific posts in the interim) and will definitely vote before the deadline, as should everyone.

Regards,
Jazz

[Jazzmyn]

I am strongly opposed to a MacavityLock lynch, he's playing markedly differently from when I saw him as scum

I am not opposed to a MacavityLock lynch, as he remains one of my top suspects, and he is playing very similarly to how he played in the game I was in when he was scum.

This is probably why meta isn't a reliable indicator of things most of the time.

Regards,
Jazz

[Jazzmyn]

No response to my point that your case on me is based on a fallacy?

My case on you is not at all based on a fallacy, as much as you would like it to be so. Remove the single word "complete" from a single post of mine (which is the entire basis of your claim that the case on you is based on a fallacy) and the case remains exactly what I have previously said it is. The fact that you are grasping desperately on to a single word out of all of my posts, in an effort to pretend that there is no case against you is quite ridiculous. Your post about that is one of the ones to which I referred in the last paragraph of my post 963, but again, your taking a single word out of all of my posts while simultaneously ignoring all the rest of my words and posts doesn't really need much of a rebuttal.

Regards,
Jazz

[Jazzmyn]

I, too, support the request for a deadline extension.

Regards,
Jazz

[Jazzmyn]

@MacavityLock

The interaction (and lack thereof) between you and StrangerCougar is very suspicious to me. A review of your posts on Day 1 show a remarkable lack on interest on your part regarding StrangerCougar, who was hands down the scummiest player in the game. A review of your posts also shows that when you did mention him, you usually did so either peripherally or in a way that excused or pooh poohed away his scumminess, and sometimes even in a manner that looks like efforts to draw suspicion away from him.

Let's review.
On October 28, the vote count was:

Evilgorrilaz 3 - (MacavityLock, Primate, StrangerCoug)
Primate 1 - (Atlas)
Atlas 1 - (SmintyLost23)
Apothecary 1 - (MiteyMouse)
Corvuus 2 - (Zeppo007, Evilgorrilaz)
MacavityLock 1 - (Cephrir)
MiteyMouse 1 - (Corvuus)
Not voting 1 - (Apothecary)

Then Cephrir dropped a 4th vote on EG without providing any reasons, and SC unvoted EG and voted Cephrir for 'mindless bandwagoning'.
Then you posted:

I approve of Ceph's bandwagoning. Hey everybody, let's quicklynch!

Nobody else voted for either EG or Cephrir in the meantime, so Cephrir had all of one vote, at which time you posted:

In fact, I think that people who don't see that are

jumping on the easier Ceph-bandwagon

. The first semi-suspicious thing that happens in this game, and you don't want to reason it through? Also, I'm not following on Gorillaz-scum at all. So, yeah, I'm going to unvote him.

FoS: StrangerCoug and MiteyMouse

. In fact,

Vote: MiteyMouse.

StrangerCoug at least is saying original things. MM is just following the trail SC is blazing.

And that is the entirety of "suspicion" you point at SC up until the point where he is at L-1. You FoSed him for casting a single vote on Cephrir, by couching it in language that suggests he's "jumping on the Ceph-bandwagon" when no such wagon existed. In the same post, you immediately voted for MM, who had not voted for Cephrir at that point either, and then you quasi-compliment SC in the process, by saying that he is saying original things.

No wagon on Cephrir ever materialized, and SC unvoted him a page later.

A while later, a wagon started on SC. You were nowhere near it. You never commented on it, and you never voiced any actual suspicion of him. All you did was mention vague references to some past voiced suspicion, but the only voiced suspicion you ever made of him was for that vote of his for Cephrir noted above.

On November 1, SC was up to 3 votes, with no comment about SC from you at all. SC voted for Corvuus on that day and you followed with a FoS on Corvuus on November 2, ostensibly for not noticing that Primate had voted for SC at the end of one of his stupid picture posts and you thought that Corvuus should have noticed. That is a ridiculous reason to cast suspicion on someone, and it looks like you were trying to divert attention from SC to Corvuus. On November 5, Apoth jumped on with a vote against Corvuus. You returned on November 6 and 7, saying nothing about SC or his wagon at all, then on November 8, you

FoSed Corvuus again, for "jumping all over SC"

and by hinting at Primate and SC being two townies going after each other.

You wrote that despite the fact that on November 7, SC himself agreed with Corvuus that he had been ignoring Primate's accusations against him for too long, and despite the fact that SC wrote some questions to Primate regarding the basis for his suspicions, etc. You didn't mention that at all, and just went after Corvuus for questioning SC, misrepresenting him the process. You went further and sort of defended SC by asking how anyone can attack Primate for his logic and reasoning while Primate is only posting in pictures (which you supported and previously said you were able to comprehend) and you suggested that if Primate thinks that SC is scum, it is up to him to convince the town that SC is scum. This looks like you are completely disinterested in SC's scumminess, while simultaneously wanting to keep Primate around as an utterly useless townie.

On November 10, you answered a question that SC asked of Apoth by saying that just because Primate hasn't said what his reason for voting SC was doesn't mean he doesn't have a reason. No comment about anything that you think might be scummy about SC, no questioning to try to see what it is that others find scummy about SC; it almost looks like you thought you may have gone too far in your last post trying to paint SC as town, and decided to at least comment on the possibility that someone might have some reason to think SC might be scum, without actually offering up any suggestion of suspicion yourself.

On November 12, you posted solely to avoid a prod, saying you have nothing new to add. When called on that, with regard to SC, you said:

SC, I mentioned early on as having suspicions of. He has not done anything to remove those suspicions. Nothing new to add.

But, in fact, the only suspicion you had voiced of SC by that time was your FoS of him back in October for allegedly jumping on a non-existent Ceph-wagon. Then you added, to Corvuus:

You, I recently mentioned that your attacks of SC are full of flawed logic. I saw your explanations and wasn't particularly convinced. Nothing new to add.

In fact, you had misrepresented Corvuus' posts about SC by claiming that he said that townies should attack other townies if they are attacked, when that wasn't what Corvuus was saying, but rather that he thought SC should have been defending himself from Primate's attacks, etc. (See your November 8 post referenced above in which you hinted at SC being a townie). You added that MiteyMouse and SC were your top targets at the moment, but still you had not voiced any basis for your alleged suspicion of SC other than that post from October.

Then SC asked you what your case on MiteyMouse was and you responded:

Like I said, I called MiteyMouse out early for his blindly following you in your bad logic.

The problem is that you never previously directed any accusation at SC for his alleged "bad logic" so why direct an accusation to someone else who you claim was agreeing with it? I don't see a single post in which you cast suspicion at SC for his "bad logic". Perhaps you can point one out.

Then, despite having just said that MM and SC are your "top suspects", in your next post on the same day, you said that

MM is still at the top of my scum-list, but you're [Corvuus] 1A.

And just like that, SC is down your list again. It seems as though when you found yourself in a position of having to actually refer to SC, you made sure to add suspicion of others so as to direct attention away from SC.

On November 15, SC answered a question that you directed to MM and you asked SC why he answered for her. You said that you wanted her to answer but then you went on to to invite SC to elaborate on his answer anyway. Hardly consistent with claiming not to want him to answer it. Then, when he elaborated as you requested, you went on to say that wasn't what you were looking for and then you went back to MM. In hindsight, this exchange looks forced, particularly in light of the fact that you had previously answered a question that SC had directed to Apothecary, without there being any reason for you to do so (back on November 10). It almost looks like the two of you were aware of your serious lack of interaction and wanted to get some in, on safe grounds, in order to later to try to avoid the accusation that you were too distant from each other on Day 1... as now, for instance.

Then you immediately went back to your bogus case on MM, started in on Apoth, FoSed Zeppo, and you said nothing at all further about or to SC while he continued to attract votes, until he got up to L-1 at which time you immediately quoted Ceph's post that put him at L-1, in which Ceph said, "That SC wagon looks better every minute", by saying you "tend to agree" and call for SC to claim.

I found it kind of humorous that you wrote in one of your posts previously that you had called for SC to claim as though it was somehow a point in your favour. It is just as likely that you were watching the votes without casting any suspicion at him but ready to jump in to request a claim to prevent anyone from hammering your scumbuddy before he had the opportunity to fake-claim.

Up to the fake claim, it seems that any interaction you had with SC had someone else as the main focus and him only peripherally. You didn't voice any specific suspicions about him, just vague things that you didn't elaborate on or follow up on.

After SC's fake claim, you went back to attacking Apoth, then SC started a bandwagon on him, which you were, of course, happy to jump on. You mentioned SC a few times in your posts after his fake claim, but only addressed him directly a couple of times (once on a semantics point and once to say, "sorry, I'm a bit confused" about something he said about his suspicions on Ythill and Zeppo being minor any more, which seemed a very odd post at the time, and even stranger in hindsight), and any other references you made to him seemed peripheral in nature. That is, when you mentioned him, you mentioned that others were more suspicious to you. You even went after Corvuus again after the fake-claim, criticizing Corvuus for continuing to attack SC and for continuing to say that he didn't believe SC's claim.

Anyway, to continue the chronology, on November 22, you started with a FoS on Apoth, which SC quickly followed with a vote and the beginning of the Apoth wagon, and after Ythill jumped on, you added your own vote that same day. That wagon eventually got Apoth up to L-1 and when Ythill suggested on December 15 backing off of the Apoth lynch to go for an Atlas lynch, you were opposed and said:

Bandwagons that don't start until this close to deadline are dangerous, and if we do end up lynching Apoth and he flips scum, I'll be looking very closely at you. Conversely, if Apoth flips town, I think that your points on qwintz and his presupposing Apoth-town aren't bad ones, and I'll be looking at him. Yay for day 2 targets!

,
So, although you were one of the prime instigators of the Apoth wagon, you had your Day 2 targets all lined up no matter which way Apoth flipped. That smells funny.

Then, of course, there was a last minute wagon against SC which resulted in lynching scum. Those who voted to lynch SC were OGML/MM, Qwints/Atlas, LLamaFluff, Cephrir, and Elmo. Right after I said I would hammer, SC self-hammered. You weren't anywhere near either one of SC's wagons, ML. I realize that you later said you were busy with school for his second wagon, which is fair enough, but still, your lack of suspicion and lack of interaction with SC overall over the course of events between October and December 18 look like the actions of a scumbuddy to me.

Throughout the entirety of Day 1, SC never voted for or FoSed you once, although he did every other player in the game except for MM, who was your main target on Day 1 prior to SC's fake claim. You FoSed SC only once, back in October, and never again, and you never voted for him. This, despite the fact that you FoSed or voted the second largest number of players in the game (after SC). But the hands down scummiest guy in the entire game, you virtually ignored, in relative terms.

Regards,
Jazz

[Jazzmyn]

LF, please translate 978 when you get the chance.

I second this request.

Regards,
Jazz

[Jazzmyn]

i just finished re-reading Llama.

I thought he was town-ish from day 1 comments and interactions (the Wall of posts between him and Ythill, i thought both were town just duking it out) and he does make points on ML that I agree with.

I don't quite understand why it seems like the Llama player on day 1 and the one we currently have are completely different now. The posts seem to drop in quality/quantity and I can understand why people think he is less townie now then compared to before and i don't know if alcohol is the only explanation. I'd still consider Llama more town than not though.

I agree with this.

What does PoE mean?

I would also like people to seriously reexamine their view of Apoth. I have not heard any real explanation of why SC was definitely not bussing him, and yet everyone seems to have taken it for granted. My position was never that he should be cleared permanently, but should live a bit longer than he otherwise might. If you remove SC's interactions with him, you're left with someone who actually looks pretty freaking scummy, for example his mysterious turnaround on whether SC was suspicious.

I agree with this. I have not dismissed the possibility of both Apoth and SC being scum, and I am pretty sure that I mentioned previously that it could have been a matter of two scum both happening to be on the lynching block on Day 1 that caused SC to go after Apoth as he did. It is not as statistically likely for 2 scum to both be on the lynching block rather than one town and one scum on Day 1, but certainly not impossible.

Regarding your other post, as you can see, I was composing a lengthy post while you were posting yours.

Regards,
Jazz

[Jazzmyn]

I am posting this from a neighbour's house as I have been having a problem with my home Internet service since Monday and I am not supposed to post from work so I have not been able to post for the past few days as I have had only horribly sporadic to non-existent access. I am told that the problem is with the outside portion of the Bell line, and that it should be repaired by Friday. If it isn't, I will snag a laptop from work and use some random wi-fi in the neighbourhood to post throughout the weekend.

I have been able to read along from work but posting from work is a major no-no, so I'm pretty much up to date on things but just not able to actually post (except I think for once when a post went through before timing out). It's very frustrating, but it should all be sorted out by Friday when I get home from work.

I see that Apothecary is being replaced and that an extension is possible as a result but I will definitely find a way to post and vote before Saturday in any event, come hell or high water.

Regards,
Jazz

[Jazzmyn]

I am realizing that between

Like it wasn't already obvious how town Jazz is or something.

Always good to have more information from the obv-towns

and qwintz's claim of protecting Jazz last night, qwintz and LF would make for really good scumbuddies.

I have long thought that there is a connection between qwints and Llama, but I don't know if it's town/town, town/scum, or scum/scum. Both Atlas and Llama struck me as town on Day 1; Ythill went after Atlas, Atlas more than held his own in that skirmish, and Llama went after Ythill in defence of Atlas. I would have pegged Ythill as scum at that time, (in fact, I did, and had a lengthy analysis of him written when Day 2 started, only to find that he was a NKed townie so my read on him was wrong as it turns out). Also, I pointed out a long time ago that the only time SC voted or FoSed Atlas/qwints was a random vote early on Day 1 (before you did, MacavityLock, even though you mentioned it later as if you had just discovered it for the first time). I have also previously said that I didn't like the way Llama seemed to be buddying up to me so much on Day 2 (see my iso post 28) and that still bothers me.

As I said before, I can see a SC/Llama/qwints scum team as plausible, but I can also see several other combinations, including a SC/ML/qwints team (see my iso post 28 in which I said that I could see any of the following combinations: SC/ML/Llama, SC/ML/qwints , SC/ML/Apoth, SC/Llama/qwints, SC/Llama/Apoth, SC/qwints/Apoth).

I'm still having trouble buying the current doc claim for the reasons set out in my iso posts 23 and 28.

LF, what makes you think that there are two killing factions? - Is it just SC talking about there being two scum?

Thats the biggest reason, there is one other big reason, but that one really is convoluted and I want to see if I can clear away the dust before I make it known.

Llama, have you cleared away the dust on this sufficiently to elaborate?

---
Reading yet again, one of the biggest problems I am having is with Llamafluff's drunken post which seems to fly in the face of what he had posted prior to that

viz a viz

qwints. Bearing in mind the old saying that "a drunk man's words are a sober man's thoughts," I'm having a hard time reconciling Llama's earlier steadfast defence of qwints' doc claim (and steadfast defence of qwints' predecessor, Atlas) with this one post, which sounds like Llama didn't believe qwints' claim after all. Or maybe I just don't understand Llama's explanation of the drunken post. Llama, will you please clarify whether you do or do not believe qwints' doc claim and what this drunken post was all about?

---
And then there is this:

Vote Count
Qwints 2 - (Apothecary, MacavityLock)
MacavityLock 2 - (LLamaFluff, Corvuus)
LLamaFluff 2 - (Elmo, Qwints)

Just

look

at that. Apothecary and MacavityLock on the same wagon. Who would have ever thunk that? Llama and Corvuus together on another wagon, while Llama simultaneously suspects Corvuus and Corvuus simultaneously suspects Llama. Elmo and Qwints on the Llama wagon while Qwints and Llama seem to have a connection of one sort or another all game.

Sheesh, no wonder I’m confused.

Regards,
Jazz

[Jazzmyn]

Btw, I'm caught up now. >>

I'd like to go in favor of a deadline extension, too, so we can take the time we need. This could be a lylo situation if we have 3 mafia, if I'm not mistaken.

It is good of you to sub in at this late stage, Illumina, so thank you.

Curious what you think of Macavity.

Good question, that, but I am also curious what s/he (no gender indicated in the profile) thinks of everyone else, too.

Regards,
Jazz

[Jazzmyn]

Sorry, I confused this game with another one that did not permit a "bah" post after death, thus my delay in saying...

BAH! Go, town!

Regards,
Jazz

[Jazzmyn]

Good game, all, and congrats to Llama and Macavity.

It was a bit frustrating not to be able to get online in time after I had decided that I believed qwints' claim and was going to go after a Llama lynch...by the time I got home to post, the deed was done and qwints was dead. *sigh*

I agree with Ythill about Corvuus' SK claim, too. I would certainly have been hard pressed not to go for his lynch after that. And it's unfortunate that it came down to a deadline lynch, but real life happens.

Glad to see I had Macavity pegged, though.

Many thanks to the game mod for being attentive and way cool, too.

Regards,
Jazz