Mini Normal 2285: GM [game over]

[Freedom]

I dont get, or like, the church wagon
I think we should be wagoning herta or kittytacky

Can you expand on this?

[Freedom]

I dont get, or like, the church wagon
I think we should be wagoning herta or kittytacky

Can you expand on this?

Idk why people think church is scummy
I think herta is scummy
I don't like kittytacky's scoliosis push - i don't get how he lost the initial townread so fast, especially since it partially seems based on scoliosis 'not ressponding to kittytacky's question' when he hasnt posted at all since 20, it's not like scoliosis is avoiding kittytacky in particular

Like ig i'm kinda confused how kittytacky can start off liking 20 and then move to disliking it when other people find it scummy without scoliosis posting anything in between

I see.

[Freedom]

Though, I feel like Kitty could've liked 20 when he first read it and changed his mind on a reread.
It's probably NAI imo.

[Freedom]

I think that skitter was probably commenting on the tone rather than the content.
I find that interacting with your wagon is NAI but your tone is AI.

[Freedom]

I don't think her gripes were tone-related at all?

I guess I might have misinterpreted, then.

[Freedom]

I think skitter is towny and I think her opinion on herta makes sense from the position of being on the other side of the aggression

I don't feel super committed to either of these reads but those are my vibes atm

Can you explain your TR on skitter?

[Freedom]

At this point I'm ok with Val/Ger/Ydra as the Elimination target today.

I think it is fair to infer unwind is claiming voteless at least for D1. Voteless is generally a town role but they are scummy as hell to so don't mind Eliminating them either.

Voteless isn't Normal though.

[Freedom]

Skimming through, the last two pages, I think that Val and Sco are Town.

[Freedom]

Can you explain?

[Freedom]

By the way, why are you specifically targeting unwnd?
He's not the only one who hasn't expressed a SR.

[Freedom]

Your posts don't seem like they're going anywhere

That is my fundamental problem with you, you're just sorta involved with various things at surface level

I agree with this.

[Freedom]

vote testa w me

?

What do you think of Skitter but actually? Also dann

not to be cryptic but read them both and i went “ok very cool” and came out feeling nothing but wisps of bad about both for reasons that i’m struggling to word right now but it’s like they’re both sort of loose and present but not normal versions of themselves

Don't mind me asking but what are they usually like?

[Freedom]

VOTE: pooky

I’m v sick rnow

I hope you feel better!

[Freedom]

vote testa w me

?

What do you think of Skitter but actually? Also dann

not to be cryptic but read them both and i went “ok very cool” and came out feeling nothing but wisps of bad about both for reasons that i’m struggling to word right now but it’s like they’re both sort of loose and present but not normal versions of themselves

Don't mind me asking but what are they usually like?

i expect more from them i guess

like digging deeper than they have so far

I see.

[Freedom]

like I'm giving him the oppurtunity to sort me and explain his read and he's like "nah you're scum I won't talk to you"

so it's not really a "he doesnt have time to engage" or real life time issue - it's just he is actively choosing to not sort or engage and instead just make declarative statements and lamist.

is this actually scummy?

I'm not Pooky but I feel like what Scol is doing is NAI.
I also don't feel like Pooky is scum because he feeis genuine.

[Freedom]

I feel like 534 catches my eye in terms of the observations made.
While Scol made a great point on Dann, I don't think that it's fair to call Pooky's wallpost scummy without explanation.
Pooky's post was pretty clearly supposed to be a scumcase on Dann.

[Freedom]

I feel like 534 catches my eye in terms of the observations made.
While Scol made a great point on Dann, I don't think that it's fair to call Pooky's wallpost scummy without explanation.
Pooky's post was pretty clearly supposed to be a scumcase on Dann.

Pookythebear's wallpost shows a fear to post in the thread and a need to be accepted which dannflor's wallpost does not. Pookythebear's wallpost is intended to confuse and bloat the discussion while dannflor's is adding to it. If you can't see it for yourself then there isn't a lot I can do to help.

Uh.
Thanks, I guess?
I'm still pretty sure that both are trying to contribute but Dann is just commenting on more.

[Freedom]

Shut the fuck up Flavor Leaf

Alt outting should be a crime.

Wait.
Are you actually FL?
I thought that you were TSE.

[Freedom]

Boy i am not a fan of Scolosis style of play for day 1. day 1 i think is worthless, and they are reading so, so much into everything.

I feel like it's NAI as town!Scol does it because they want to solve while scum!Scol does it to create content.
I'm leaning towards town!Scol because he does seem to be trying to do some solving.

[Freedom]

this is where my reads are after full reread:

town:
ydra, iv, herta, freedom, unwnd, skitter, toto

neutral:
val, gera, kt

scum:
scol, dann


i'm willing to kill scol or dann today what do you think

VOTE: dannflor

Elaborate your Dann read. So far Dann has just been... forgettable.

Pooky explained in 232.

[Freedom]

this is where my reads are after full reread:

town:
ydra, iv, herta, freedom, unwnd, skitter, toto

neutral:
val, gera, kt

scum:
scol, dann


i'm willing to kill scol or dann today what do you think

VOTE: dannflor

Elaborate your Dann read. So far Dann has just been... forgettable.

Pooky explained in 532.

EBWOP

[Freedom]

@Freedom; What is your read on skitter?

Nulltown.
She has made quite some in-depth posts but a lot of what she's done feels NAI.

[Freedom]

It would help if people not voting start voting someone, we need more drama to sort this out.

OK.
VOTE: gera

[Freedom]

but like if you don't agree with that there are also other issues you haven't really addressed

like I feel your summation of herta's scum meta matches perfectly with what they are doing here?

I'll read his scum game again I'm mostly just going off memory from when I played with him on his other account.

Me too.
From memory, as scum, he's pretty direct and openwolfy.
(This is based off a game where we both were on different accounts.)

[Freedom]

Yo, close your eyes, IMAGINE its day two:

Scenario A) 99.9%: we murdered Scol, he was scum. Poor Toto got shot.

Scenario B) 0.1% we murdered Scol, he was town. Poor Toto got shot.

Who is scum now?

I don't SR Scol though.
His confidence reads as Towny.

[Freedom]

Are you sure taking your foot off the gas is the best idea here?

I've been less than impressed with geraintm's play today but I do think they are perfectly capable of playing this "I hate D1 and refuse to participate in it" strategy as both alignments. Being both less cagey with the read on Sco and a quick claim might have pushed me to give them benefit-of-the-doubt and on to the Sco wagon since my vote isn't doing much on a vanity wagon presently, but this feels like wanting to take some time to confer.

I agree.
I feel like this sums up my concerns as well.

[Freedom]

Yo, close your eyes, IMAGINE its day two:

Scenario A) 99.9%: we murdered Scol, he was scum. Poor Toto got shot.

Scenario B) 0.1% we murdered Scol, he was town. Poor Toto got shot.

Who is scum now?

I don't SR Scol though.
His confidence reads as Towny.

Have you heard of the term "powerwolfing"?

I have not tbh.

[Freedom]

Is your claim really that bad?

[Freedom]

Sorry if I sound too harsh but I feel like what your claim is, chances are that it's NAI.

[Freedom]

I think that Scol should definitely claim ASAP.

[Freedom]

Where did Kitty white-knight again?

[Freedom]

If Gera is town he will become smarter come D2.

I refuse to vote Gera rn, he has consistently shown to play like this as town D1 and I don't do policy lims. He always gets run up for shit takes like clockwork. Get Scol instead.

Posts like these

I see.
I guess I can see why iv thinks that Kitty is whiteknighting.
It does look like Kitty is defending gera as Scol was the counterwagon.

[Freedom]

Kitty is defending gera, the question is whether that's coming from scum-kitty or town-kitty

I can see both, noticing that gera is the main wagon and Scol is the counter wagon.
As Town, Kitty hopes to extinguish the gera wagon so that his preferred wagon goes through.
As scum, Kitty hopes to get Scol eliminated while at the sametime, pocket gera.
Kitty did seem kind of invested in eliminating Scol so I guess that it could just be that he wants Scol eliminated.

[Freedom]

Are you townreading gera now, Freedom?

Not yet.
I feel like their refusal to claim feels a bit odd.
Though, I would consider them nullish.
UNVOTE:

[Freedom]

It just looked to me like that 1022 was written with a town!gera assumed.

I see.
I did assume a world where gera isn't scum with Kitty.

[Freedom]

Are you townreading gera now, Freedom?

Not yet.
I feel like their refusal to claim feels a bit odd.
Though, I would consider them nullish.
UNVOTE:

His refusal to claim is +scum.

Geraintm's scum strategy can be broken down into three layers of defense:

On the first layer he disappears whenever possible, hoping that others will forget he is present in the game. (His absence of meaningful thought and refusal to get involved with the content between 332 and 572, not to mention most of the discussion which he lurked actively through between his posts 18 and 330.)

On the second layer he pretends to be meek and humble, hoping that others will feel sorry for him and vote someone else. (330, 763, 767 -which is refuted by pookythebear in 836 and 838-, 854 which is unbelievable, 857, etc.)

On his third and final layer he creates intrigue and confusion about his role, hoping others will become uncomfortable with the ambiguity behind his refusal to claim and move on to someone else. (894)

I see.
I had thought that his refusal to claim was just a playstyle oddity.
Though, it does seem like maybe it isn't as I thought.
VOTE: gera again.

[Freedom]

also dont e-1 until after toto claims his info

Yes.

I think we need a claim from geraint asap

Which he hopefully gives.

[Freedom]

Are you townreading gera now, Freedom?

Not yet.
I feel like their refusal to claim feels a bit odd.
Though, I would consider them nullish.
UNVOTE:

His refusal to claim is +scum.

Geraintm's scum strategy can be broken down into three layers of defense:

On the first layer he disappears whenever possible, hoping that others will forget he is present in the game. (His absence of meaningful thought and refusal to get involved with the content between 332 and 572, not to mention most of the discussion which he lurked actively through between his posts 18 and 330.)

On the second layer he pretends to be meek and humble, hoping that others will feel sorry for him and vote someone else. (330, 763, 767 -which is refuted by pookythebear in 836 and 838-, 854 which is unbelievable, 857, etc.)

On his third and final layer he creates intrigue and confusion about his role, hoping others will become uncomfortable with the ambiguity behind his refusal to claim and move on to someone else. (894)

I see.
I had thought that his refusal to claim was just a playstyle oddity.
Though, it does seem like maybe it isn't as I thought.
VOTE: gera again.

I thjnk refusal/cryptic/drawn out claiming is on average quite towny in my empirical experience. Scol’s theory is like possible but it’s more of a hindsight/confbias narrative kind of read imo

I see.
Now, I'm confused though I am curious to hear gera's claim and work from there.

[Freedom]

I feel freedon is still getting some free passes.

Why?

[Freedom]

The slot is, I suspect, very happy with how things have gone this game

I am not.
I would be fine if you refused to claim the first time but you're still refusing to claim.
I'm starting to think that you have some role that is rare for Town to have.

[Freedom]

because i dont get the point of the execution of how its done versus just like being lazy and out of the spotlight d1

(i dont even remember why gera got ran up atp)

Scoliosis decided I was scum. They haven't moved off that all day even though I have responded to all their jabs at me they have just ignored.


Freedom literally had no reason.
Unwnd sheeped Iv
Pooky has ptsd
Dannflor just wanted a claim.

The wagon stank

That was for my initial vote and I unvoted you for that.
Then, you refuse to claim.
So, no. I have a reason.
I want you to claim.

[Freedom]

So freedom, any claim from me would be enough for you to unvote?
You are saying you are only voting for me because enough people voted for me that you think that should force a claim from a player?

No.
But I would like to know what role you have, that'd you prefer to keep secret when it's clear that this game isn't like usual and claiming might actually be good for Town.

[Freedom]

So, if my claim has no impact on if you vote for me or not, and i believe town roles should ntk be forced out of us in sequence by scum running up multiple wagons....you think I am going to give you anymore than I have done.

I still cannot understand why you are voting me. You agree you had no good reason yo vote for me, but you were happy to jump back on because I won't tell my role now? Do you think I am scum?

I feel like in this gamestate, scum is more likely than Town to withold their role.
However, you did say that you found claiming bad for Town which seems NAI.
So, I want to know if you have some rare PR like the newly approved ones that are uncommon for Town to have and thus, if you were to claim, it might not sound believable.
And no, I don't think that you're stalling to have time to think of a fakeclaim because it wouldn't take this long.
It just seems like you want to avoid both trueclaiming and fakeclaiming.

[Freedom]

Which reads to me as being unhelpful to Town in the long run.

[Freedom]

Can you explain?

[Freedom]

I see.
Who do you think are the scum, then?

[Freedom]

If Gera is scum shouldn't there be more pudding toward scoliosis and vv.

Who's vv?

[Freedom]

I see.
It does feel like there's been more of a push on gera than Scol.

[Freedom]

Do you think we should kill scolio then?

Not sure.
I would prefer gera claim, though.

[Freedom]

I think that nobody should hammer until Toto claims their info.

[Freedom]

I think that I trust iv.
It reads to me that he was being genuine when he said that he was policying gera.
I feel like scum!iv is more likely to try pocket gera than policy him.

[Freedom]

Here's a sneak peek of my reread of d1, in order from left = strong to right = weak

Town toto, iv, val,

Town lean unwnd, ydrasse, herta, freedom, dannflor,

Scum skitter, kt, pooky

I will vote whichever one of my scum reads will actually reach 7 votes. I think voting someone other than those three names might be a throw, unless I'm making another terrible mistake.

Sell me on scum!Kitty.
He seems all right to me.

[Freedom]

VOTE: val89

19 looks like a scum post to me.

I suspect Testarossa too for posting 17. By comparison, 6 doesn't include a vote so it isn't trying to blend.

1. How so?
2. It's not trying to blend... because it's by the IC.

IMO this kind of weird comment (2) is townish.

In my opinion, kt was free to go either way with his read on me as of this post. It wasn't until skitter got herta to elaborate what he townreads kt for in 93 that kt decided he would stick with his tunnel on me, since he realized that would get him townread and require little effort.

I see.
I think I get it now.

[Freedom]

I see.
I think I get it now.

Do you believe it though?

I'm conflicted.
That does feel scummy for Kitty in a vacuum but I could see him doing it as Town by coincidence.

[Freedom]

I’m obviously conflicted on who’s scum and it seems like you’re not. Saying I’ve come close to “solving the game” feels like you know more than me. If you’re town I don’t know why in your right mind you would tell ME to be the one carrying. I’m just very concerned about the way you’re handling this day

I agree.
Though, Scol could be overconfident and think that his solve is correct and people deviating from it makes them wrong.

[Freedom]

No that’s not really what I’m saying

If he’s an overconfident Townie that’s fine, that by itself isn’t necessarily sus?

I’m saying that the way he handled it by lol catting Pooky and then pandering to me with those posts is not the mindset that I think an overconfident Townie takes

I see.
I had missed those posts.

[Freedom]

Anyone can explain how to read herta again and why he is town/scum here?

I can see town!herta thinking he is a lhf and and easy target to come for, so the skitter tunnel scum case makes sense from that pov. At the same time he is not contributing much to resolving the game which is scummy, but that seems to be his approach to the game as both town and mafia from the few games I could look into.

Also herta, if you are town, can you town up?

I don't really have a reliable way for reading Herta but he can be pretty obvscum as scum.

[Freedom]

In other words, from what I know of scum!Herta, he tends to openwolf.

[Freedom]

In other words, from what I know of scum!Herta, he tends to openwolf.

Anyone can explain how to read herta again and why he is town/scum here?

I can see town!herta thinking he is a lhf and and easy target to come for, so the skitter tunnel scum case makes sense from that pov. At the same time he is not contributing much to resolving the game which is scummy, but that seems to be his approach to the game as both town and mafia from the few games I could look into.

Also herta, if you are town, can you town up?

I don't really have a reliable way for reading Herta but he can be pretty obvscum as scum.

You just said he’s obvscum when scum but you don’t have a reliable way for reading him

What are you saying here..?

Because I was asked to tell if he was town/scum and I can't remember if Herta was lhf as Town and thus invalidating my scumtell for him.

[Freedom]

I actually was shocked that the votes he's gathered hasn't got him kicking and screaming more

That was why I wanted to focus on Herta, just didn't want to be yelled at lol

That's a good observation.
Scol seems more focused on Kitty opposed to the others voting him.

[Freedom]

iv, what do you make of Scol's focus on Kitty?

[Freedom]

Why Pooky again?

[Freedom]

I thought that you had already explained.
If you hadn't, can you explain?

[Freedom]

Why Pooky again?

Do you have any reads freedom?

I think that Val is probably Town and because you don't seem openwolfy, you also might be town.

[Freedom]

Why Pooky again?

Do you have any reads freedom?

I think that Val is probably Town and because you don't seem openwolfy, you also might be town.

No scum reads? Scoliosis?

Scol seems a bit odd today.
I don't really like that his focus on Kitty.

[Freedom]

Why Pooky again?

Do you have any reads freedom?

I think that Val is probably Town and because you don't seem openwolfy, you also might be town.

No scum reads? Scoliosis?

Scol seems a bit odd today.
I don't really like that his focus on Kitty.

Does that mean you townread kittytacky?

Not really but I feel like Town would pay more attention to other slots.

[Freedom]

Yeah.
Sorry about that.

[Freedom]

Herta can be town if Skitter is not

This read is a bit out of the blue, but I've been slowly piecing things together

How about vice versa?

[Freedom]

Scol is focusing on me because I tend to be LHF town due to my weird playstyle.

Herta has also been described as lhf though.

[Freedom]

Spicy i get to play with the lovable bear for first time in like more than half a year.
@pooky should i do the hero solve.

How important is day 1 to read. Before i jumped in i skimmed like the first 5 pages of this game like 2 weeks ago because i was randomly looking at this game for some reason.

Hi Firebringer!
What is your read of Scol, the leading wagon?

[Freedom]

no opinion, what opinion should i have

He's the leading wagon so I think that you should form an opinion of him.
Especially since he's closest to elimination.

[Freedom]

I'm not Herta but I feel like what he's saying makes sense as we could look at how people interacted with Scol's wagon.

[Freedom]

ok is it just me or does scoli feel like scum who gave up

Probably just you so far but I can see you being correct.

[Freedom]

no i just read ur iso. But then i just clicked into that post and even in context i feel like it wasn't reaction testing? it seems more like it was in reaction to piss scoli off tbh.

Why is that scummy?

[Freedom]

I think most of his day2 posting is nai and 'i'm going to get flipped soon anyways so why am i even talking to you guys

I think that this can come from town qnd scum in general but in this case it's sort of overlaid with the vibes of 'ugh why doesnt everyone see what i see and i have no patience to explain things to these dullards while they're trying to wagon me' which feels more townie than scummy to me

Can you explain the last part?

[Freedom]

I think most of his day2 posting is nai and 'i'm going to get flipped soon anyways so why am i even talking to you guys

I think that this can come from town qnd scum in general but in this case it's

sort of overlaid with the vibes of 'ugh why doesnt everyone see what i see and i have no patience to explain things to these dullards while they're trying to wagon me' which feels more townie than scummy to me

Can you explain the last part?

Which part

The bolded.

[Freedom]

Why do you think that those are town-indicative?

[Freedom]

They exhibit the vibe i described above
I think scum would be trying more, and not checking out due to lack of patience or from getting annoyed

I see.
Personally, I'd expect Town to be efforting more under pressure to save themselves.

[Freedom]

They exhibit the vibe i described above
I think scum would be trying more, and not checking out due to lack of patience or from getting annoyed

I see.
Personally, I'd expect scum to be efforting more under pressure to save themselves.

EBWOP

[Freedom]

So I can see where you're going.
Though, that focus on Kitty still gives me doubt.

[Freedom]

I feel like Town would be nuanced while scum would be more nitpicky.

[Freedom]

That focus on Kitty feels nitpicky.

[Freedom]

I feel like Town would be nuanced while scum would be more nitpicky.

I'm not really sure i agree with this statement

What about it?

[Freedom]

That town are more likely to be nuanced
And that scum are more likely to be nitpicky

Or that you can draw conclusions abt someone's alignment with that statement

I didn't mean to give that impression but I would expect more nuance coming from Scol, if he was Town as it shows that he's more willing to solve.

[Freedom]

ive only read about 15 pages and i think so.
I have no clue how u got to townread to begin with on the slot. Its very fucking wild.

I think that skitter claimed it was Scol's vibes.

[Freedom]

Still don't think we should do this

It could be informative though.

[Freedom]

In that ...?
I dont believe in flipping slots because it might be informative

I'm not saying that we should eliminate Scol for informative reasons but the way people have interacted around his wagon provide a wealth of information.

[Freedom]

no opinion, what opinion should i have

I don't think scoliosis is particularly scummy but it would be a good flip because he's been in the thick of it the whole game. It would inform the alignments of some others.

Please elaborate on how it would inform the alignments of others

How much clarity do you gain on a Scol scumflip or townflip?

We're going to be able to better judge probably why there was resistance or not from particular players. To what degree I don't know, but if scoliosis flips red then we can pretty much lock kt as town, whoever had that brush with scoliosis at the beginning of the game val maybe as town. Probably others.

This post from Herta provides some examples.

[Freedom]

They exhibit the vibe i described above
I think scum would be trying more, and not checking out due to lack of patience or from getting annoyed

I see.
Personally, I'd expect Town to be efforting more under pressure to save themselves.

I mean at least I often just kinda deflate as scum when I'm sinking. As town I fight until my last breath.

I agree with this.
I feel like Scol seems to not really be fighting his wagon.

[Freedom]

I feel like Town will want to contribute some final reads but scum will try to dismantle their wagon.
Scol seems to be doing neither.
So I'm conflicted tbh.
Though, leaning scum for his focus on you.

[Freedom]

I feel like Town will want to contribute some final reads but scum will try to dismantle their wagon.
Scol seems to be doing neither.
So I'm conflicted tbh.
Though, leaning scum for his focus on you.

I don't understand why scoliosis focusing on kitty is scummy but kitty focusing on scoliosis is townie. And Is scoliosis really tunneling kitty?

Scol seemed to focus more on Kitty than others on his wagon.
It's true that Kitty has focused on Scol a lot, though.

[Freedom]

Though, I think that you're right in that Scol seems less tunnelled on Kitty that Kitty is on Scol.

[Freedom]

They exhibit the vibe i described above
I think scum would be trying more, and not checking out due to lack of patience or from getting annoyed

um do you even know who he is?

him not trying is very scum indicative.... town!him basically never shuts up

Who is he?

Apparently, FL.

[Freedom]

Idk I feel like for whatever reason you're scum this game and for some reason you decided to try

And if that's right I think your team has like at least one of your friends or something idk because why else would you randomly try so hard this game after a ton of scumflips

Which game are you talking about?

[Freedom]

Can we agree that giving up / lurking to avoid getting hammered is NAI and move on. Everything is freaking NAI.

OK.
Though, can you explain the Pooky vote?

[Freedom]

If we ignore Scol, does your TR still hold?

[Freedom]

I see.
Can you explain?

[Freedom]

I'm actually finding these posts a little scummy

Is this about Math?
He does seem more jokey than I usually remember him being.
Though, I'm not sure if this is a scumtell or not.

[Freedom]

Can you explain the Pooky SR again?
Pedit: @Math

[Freedom]

Why the fuck are we voting Pooky when Scol is lurking it up. This is what scum wants.

Are you sure that you're not getting confbiased now?

[Freedom]

Can you explain the Pooky SR again?
Pedit: @Math

Sure latest VC has wagon on inactive.

We have majority of game town blocked based on prior postings.

This means if prior suggestion true scum are desperate

My friend isn’t on the wagon and is on Pooky.

Pooky pushed inactive. Matches premise

So Pooky is a good vote IMHo.

Why not Kitty, then?
He's been more insistent than Pooky.

[Freedom]

Can you explain the Pooky SR again?
Pedit: @Math

Sure latest VC has wagon on inactive.

We have majority of game town blocked based on prior postings.

This means if prior suggestion true scum are desperate

My friend isn’t on the wagon and is on Pooky.

Pooky pushed inactive. Matches premise

So Pooky is a good vote IMHo.

Why not Kitty, then?
He's been more insistent than Pooky.

Haven’t interacted with Kitty so no read on Kitty.

I could be sold on Kitty but Pooky is way better than pushing a likely newbie.

I see.

[Freedom]

Going on a tangent but I feel like Pooky being tilted kinda feels Towny because I feel like scum!Pooky wouldn't act like this.

[Freedom]

For the record, I also do not accept the premise that there are 3 conf town here.

I think that Math was probably just acting as though iv, who he seemed to TR, as conftown.

[Freedom]

For the record, I also do not accept the premise that there are 3 conf town here.

I think that Math was probably just acting as though iv, who he seemed to TR, was conftown.

EBWOP

[Freedom]

@V/LA Friday to Monday

[Freedom]

Cool, should i selfhammer then?

Never.
Please don't gamethrow.

[Freedom]

will hammer in 8 hours

VOTE: Enchant

Sorry I was late.

Someone hammer.

Fine.
Enchant is informative, anyway.
VOTE: Enchant

E-1

[Freedom]

Maybe I'm just stupid but like. How is skitter scum for this.

Because of their pivot. I already explained why.

Soon as I did my jokey entrance

Skitter went I am sus for meme-ily claiming doctor.

That’s not a town reaction day after a missing kill.

Good point.
Though, maybe skitter was SRing you for claiming

ninja

doctor?

[Freedom]

It’s that Skitter went immediately sus without explanation then tried to turn the tables in a very antitown way. It’s about me proving myself when I already had and if she had a townie mindset she’d handle it differently.

I see.
I guess that skitter could be scum.

[Freedom]

Honestly makes me thing Kitty is actually town and you are whiteknighting them.

I agree.

[Freedom]

Herta, who do you SR?

[Freedom]

Herta, who do you SR?

Skitter is scum.

I see.
Is it for similar reasons to Math?

[Freedom]

I feel KT needs to be reevaluated after yesterday's flip.

Me too.
I'm still on vacation rn so don't expect much from me but I feel like Kitty was pretty focused on Scol.

[Freedom]

And kt is p obviously town still

Why do you say this instead of reevaluating after Enchant flip?

[Freedom]

VOTE: Pooky

i use my ninja grenade to escape out the back door

Why did you do this?

[Freedom]

I'm not feeling scum!Herta but then I ended up being wrong on Pooky.
On the other hand, Ydra seems to have an inno on skitter, if I read correctly.

[Freedom]

I think there has to be scum in the pr claims at this point, this doesnt make sense otherwise

You could be right.
It's weird if scum decided to NK you over Toto.
That would be the same for Firebringer who Math said that he was going to protect.

[Freedom]

???

disloyal checker go through on wolf not town
i got no result

you got roleblocked by me tho?

I thought you JKed skitter not Ydra.

[Freedom]

???

disloyal checker go through on wolf not town
i got no result

you got roleblocked by me tho?

I thought you JKed skitter not Ydra.

Jailkeeps stop all actions from hitting the target including kills

No.
That's a Rolestopper or Alien.

[Freedom]

We need massclaim

Cool.
I'm VT.

[Freedom]

???

disloyal checker go through on wolf not town
i got no result

you got roleblocked by me tho?

I thought you JKed skitter not Ydra.

Jailkeeps stop all actions from hitting the target including kills

No, that's ascetic / alien
Jk just prevents kills (and rbs)

Ascetic doesn't block kills.

[Freedom]

i am inclined to believe ydra and think that skitter got framed here.

Can you explain this?

[Freedom]

So n1 math blocked the kill -> no other claimed explanation for the lack of nk
N2 fire is claiming he jk'd math -> no other claimed explanation for the lack of nk
N3 math docced fire, and fire jk'd me -> too many possible explanations for the nk

And scum apparently never tried to kill toto
Ydra is claiming disloyal something with an inno on me

Is that where we're at?

I think so.

[Freedom]

i am inclined to believe ydra and think that skitter got framed here.

Can you explain this?

gut. i dont feel skitter reaction to my action indicates she is guilty
therefore believe ydra innocent. also i think ydra claim to specific to be faked? at leasto n surface level.

I see.

[Freedom]

@Ydra
Can you tell us a list of your targets and the results?

[Freedom]

If scum are ninjas would that confuse your result ydra?

I'm not Ydra but I doubt that it would as Ninja only affects roles that are Tracker/Watcher-like.

[Freedom]

Is everybody claiming VT?

[Freedom]

i one shot (smiles)

not use before for reason (less likely to be good at hitting i think) (also i parade around being all rah rah i important role trying to soak up any block before they realize it waste on me. and then i strike)

I see.
Did you target skitter because you wanted to use your shot as a pseudo-Cop then?
Also, did you consider the possibility of skitter being Mafia Ninja Ascetic?

[Freedom]

Firebringer, what is your opinion of half of everybody claiming VT?
I kinda doubt that everybody is trueclaiming.

[Freedom]

way i feel about role is that if all mafia ninja then i probably there to investigate in way that can get them
i think that mafia must have way to mitigate me or give pseudo innocent i dont know exactly how though
probably some kind of block to try and deal with doctor and jk if all town

I agree.

[Freedom]

MEEEHHHH

So you didn't think checking Scol on N1 was worth it. Or pooky/skitter on N2

This is a very unfortunate and convenient sequence of events.

Do you think that Ydra is scum?

[Freedom]

MEEEHHHH

So you didn't think checking Scol on N1 was worth it. Or pooky/skitter on N2

This is a very unfortunate and convenient sequence of events.

Do you think that Ydra is scum?

You town?

Yes.

[Freedom]

Should I be suspicious that Ydra didn't seem to consider Ascetic when clearing skitter.

[Freedom]

Should I be suspicious that Ydra didn't seem to consider Ascetic when clearing skitter?

EBWOP

[Freedom]

i think ascetic is less likely if we have many protect going on
it delves more into setup spec stuff but if you have things going on around you that can screw you over in multiple ways you should probably have the agency to like, deal with those things
also i think that a ninja-ascetic is kinda goofy lol

I see.

[Freedom]

VOTE: Kittytacky

I cast kitty summoning noises.

Give your thoughts.

Kitty did seem pretty against the Pooky wagon from memory.
He TRed Pooky for reasons that were mainly to do with scum!Scol or something like that.

[Freedom]

Nah. I think Kitty was just wrong, not scum.

I see.
Can you explain?

[Freedom]

TBH why did people SR Val again other than similar reasons to scum!Kitty?

[Freedom]

We should probably be responsible and murder the tiger.

Good idea.
VOTE: skitter

[Freedom]

I kinda want to hear ydrasse’s info. It could be scum didn’t think I had a shot and shot at FB?

Or FB is just lying and is scum in order to clear himself.

Yeah my eval of skitter depends on that info.

Ydra claimed Disloyal Checker and didn't get a result.
skitter claimed VT.
I asked Ydra if she considered Ascetic and she did, but thought that Ninja Ascetic is goofy.

[Freedom]

if you want to murder skitter, i feel like the actual decision is to flip Ydra to prove her role.
if she flips town, we know skitter got framed and is clear. (minus ascetic possibility i guess)
If flips scum then we have to flip skitter tomorrow.

She got no result because you presumably JK tiger. So flipping them doesn't tell us much imo.

I just find their claim super convinient. They are now useless to town. I also don't find the claimed lack of night actions believable given wagon pressures. Also some previous potential breadcrumbs were hinting different things imo.

my action doesn't stop ydrasse action. She wouldn't get no result, she would get skitter didn't visit anyone if skitter was scum

Actually, she would know that her action was successful, as she is a Checker. She checks if her action was successful or not.

[Freedom]

K if all claims are true then we are down to most likely two of Val/Herta/Freedom

Why?

[Freedom]

Could be ascetic scum tho. Maybe.

That is what I feel like could be true.

[Freedom]

I don't see scum!Ydra + town!skitter.

So either both scum, both town or town!Ydra + scum!skitter..

If we flip town!skitter ydra prob town.

I agree with this.

[Freedom]

So we lim Herta, if town we lim Skitter, if both town we NL, then ELO --- IDK but Val/Freedom atp? depends which claimed PRs are left I guess. If we lose we blame loss on herta/skitter for tunneling each other all game.

Why Val?

[Freedom]

Because I think Ydra+Skitter or Val+Freedom is where I am at.

Why is Val aligned with me?

[Freedom]

Okay so if Toto is truthtelling then

Ydrasse would receive a succeeded and checked [playername] on mafia.
And on town Ydrasse would receive a fail.

So either Ydrasse and Skitter share an alignment or scum no killed and FB blocked Ydrasse.

I'm not parsing this. I'm of course telling the truth about all mafias being ninjas, but what does my truthtelling have to do with this?


Why do they need to share alignment necessarily?

Assume Ydrasse town. Then it can be reasonably inferred that Ydrasse isn’t lying about the check and it’s result. The only way Ydrasse gets that result is Skitter town.

Assume Ydrasse scum. Ydrasse claimed one shot. Therefore in every possible world, we elim Ydrasse before Skitter. If Ydrasse scum Skitter town the fake claim was of no benefit as we probably elim Skitter. The fake claim only serves a benefit if we don’t elim either one which makes them the same alignment.

skitter could be Ascetic fakeclaiming VT.

[Freedom]

So here is another thing I'm wondering:

if watcher and jk target the same target, does the watcher see the JK?

They would because it's a JK not a Rolestopper or Alien.

[Freedom]

I still haven’t caught up with any mech discussions (idk if anyone wants to tldr for me but nw I’ll catch up later) but gth scum is somewhere in ydr/fire/val/like maybe Herta

Ydra claimed inno on skitter. When asked to clarify, she said that she was Disloyal Checker and got no result. She decided that skitter was not Ascetic because she found Ninja Ascetic, 'goofy'.
Math claimed Doc on Firebringer, who claimed JK on skitter.
Kitty claimed Ascetic Tracker with the results of nobody visiting. His targets were Pooky, Val and Toto for N1, N2 and N3 respectively.
Pretty everybody else (minus Toto) claimed VT.

[Freedom]

I distrust all the VT claims and think that at least one is fake.
(My guess is skitter.)

[Freedom]

I think there's one scum in each of {pr claims} and {vt claims}

Who are your guesses?

[Freedom]

Herta in vt
And ydra in pr

I see.
Why Ydra?

[Freedom]

I would not be opposed to killing Ydrasse

Why Ydra over skitter?

[Freedom]

do u do that even as town?

are you allowed to discuss ur modifiers - why do you only have a n3 result

Ydra already claimed One-Shot.

[Freedom]

has ur playstyle changed a lot over the past year or two? i remember you being fairly energetic and obvtown when town. My initial impression of your scumplay was very bland but i thought you grew the ability to blend and dodge and weave a little more over time even pulling off the occasional AtE gambit. Your play this game sorta feels like a reversion to ur 2020 esque scumplay where u felt very muddy but now u vibe with more people in thread so u get to vibe a little more now and be less stilted. idk if that makes any sense but it’s where my at with u rn is

This is @Ydra, right?
Just checking.

[Freedom]

Should we just sort Ydra today and skitter tommorow?

[Freedom]

Herta in vt
And ydra in pr

I see.
Why Ydra?

doesn't seem to match the rest of the setup, and idk why she waits until n3
but tbh the whole pr mess doesn't add up much to me, even if ydra is scum i'm still kinda confused what happened to the nk last night tho ...

I see.

[Freedom]

Toto claimed Macho remember.
If scum shot him and he survived, that would mean that they got blocked which would make scum in you and skitter.
P-Edit: @Math

[Freedom]

And i think i can do freedom as well

Can you explain?

[Freedom]

Freedom is kind of a hero shot. He has no interactions with anyone really at least none that mean anything I don't think. So his flip is wasted if green bc no associations. I don't it but I'd rather someone who gives us an idea of rest of team.

@skitter this is the sort of comment I don’t really see coming from scum. Idk I don’t feel like scum talk about slots in this way.

I agree.
I don't think scum would bother caring which Town players they get eliminated, especially when joining such a potential wagon won't draw attention.

[Freedom]

Wait.
Why am I scum with Firebringer, again?

[Freedom]

So if Freedom is town becaues of vibes.
And Herta is town because of one post.
And Skitter is conftown because Ydra said so.
And IV is town because scum would not NK on N1.

Then it is val 100% chance.

Because Datisi would not give us an informed IC and just two PRs, right?

I think that you're right that there should be more PRs.
Though, we have an IC, 4 claimed PRs and 6 claimed VTs alive rn.
Which would be reasonable if this game wasn't marked as Complex.

[Freedom]

On the other hand, the Mafia are all Ninja, Math claimed Ninja, Kitty claimed Ascetic and you're Informed.
So, maybe that's what is considered Complex?

[Freedom]

Yeah. I meant I don't think both scum are claimed PRs. Given that would leave town very weak.

So 1 or 2 of the VTs are scum.

That's also what I think and why I thought that skitter could be Mafia Ninja Ascetic.

[Freedom]

And i think i can do freedom as well

Can you explain?

I'm realizing i don't have a reason to tr u

I see.

[Freedom]

I think that Ydra prefers she.

[Freedom]

*she
Well fire and ydra are both claiming they think i'm town after their actions last night, which is kinda ??? to me

Like i certainly don't mind but something feels off here

Agreed.
I think that there's at least 1 scum in {you, Fire, Ydra}.

[Freedom]

Math, if I'm interpreting correctly your solves are Ydra/skitter or Firebringer/me.

[Freedom]

Math, if I'm interpreting correctly your solves are Ydra/skitter or Firebringer/me, right?

EBWOP

[Freedom]

Yeah or a Herta/Val or Herta/you (first list but it seems rare)

I see.
That explains your vote on me.

[Freedom]

I still haven’t caught up with any mech discussions (idk if anyone wants to tldr for me but nw I’ll catch up later) but gth scum is somewhere in ydr/fire/val/like maybe Herta

Ydra claimed inno on skitter. When asked to clarify, she said that she was Disloyal Checker and got no result. She decided that skitter was not Ascetic because she found Ninja Ascetic, 'goofy'.
Math claimed Doc on Firebringer, who claimed JK on skitter.
Kitty claimed Ascetic Tracker with the results of nobody visiting. His targets were Pooky, Val and Toto for N1, N2 and N3 respectively.
Pretty everybody else (minus Toto) claimed VT.

WATCHER!!!!!!!!!!!!! NOT TRACKER!

Oops.
I misremembered.

[Freedom]

*she
Well fire and ydra are both claiming they think i'm town after their actions last night, which is kinda ??? to me

Like i certainly don't mind but something feels off here

Agreed.
I think that there's at least 1 scum in {you, Fire, Ydra}.

I mean i think fire/ydra, but agreed

Then, should we sort Firebringer today?
VOTE: Firebringer

[Freedom]

why would u flip me when i can still stop kills?

You are generally agreed to be in the scumpool by skitter, me and Math to a degree.
If you want, we can do Ydra/skitter insteas as I want to sort between you three.

[Freedom]

i am literally dumb founded i can even be in a sorting pool.
for me to be scum the kind of logic twists you would have to pull to make the argument is nuts.
and i get everyone confused on how we have no kills and night actions making very little sense but

out of all the people in that pool i am the least possible to be scum. It would require me bussing and no killing for no reason whatsoever except i guess im doing deep wolf.

Who do you think is most likely, then?

[Freedom]

Because Math thinks that the 'least problematic' scenario is that we're scum together (because IV SRed me) and he thinks that you decided to not NK on N3 and targeted iv on N2.

[Freedom]

Math, when I flip Town, who would you think scum is?

[Freedom]

Freedom, who do you want to elim in that pool?

I'm not sure.
I know that I'm Town, so that's out of the deal.
I don't think scum!Herta makes 2817.
Val made some good points in 2891 and 2895.
So I'm not sure which one out of Herta and Val.

[Freedom]

I have a work fire. Maybe VLA for the rest of the day.

My sympathies.

[Freedom]

way i feel about role is that if all mafia ninja then i probably there to investigate in way that can get them
i think that mafia must have way to mitigate me or give pseudo innocent i dont know exactly how though
probably some kind of block to try and deal with doctor and jk if all town

I agree.

Why would mafia Need to have a block for a one shot?

I feel like then, it can provide false clears.
Though, on the other hand, I have good points that if skitter was Ascetic, she would've been the one making the kills.

[Freedom]

I don't see scum!Ydra + town!skitter.

So either both scum, both town or town!Ydra + scum!skitter..

If we flip town!skitter ydra prob town.

I agree with this.

what why can’t Ydrasse scum + town skitter

Actually, this is a good point.
I'm not sure really as I don't really see the point of scum!Ydra conftowning town!skitter.

[Freedom]

That’s the main reason I can’t drop the Firebringer world.

But I think it’s more likely Firebringer isn’t a protective at all and wanted to frame someone.

I think Firebringer came up with that idea when he said I should be on him.

I have been keeping my shots close to the vest (for obvious reasons) but I think Fire’s plan was to frame Skitter.

What makes you think that Firebringer isn't just scum JK?

[Freedom]

I'm on vacation until New Years.
Though, I'm unsure what to make of Firebringer's breakdown.

[Freedom]

It's also possible that mafia are informed of the other thing I'm informed and haven't said.

I guess this could be true.

[Freedom]

Can somebody give me a TLDR?

[Freedom]

freedom spent a game recently relying a lot on wolf team for assistance and them basically coaching his play a bit idk how that would impact this game

Is that a recent game for which the scum PT is public?

Might be helpful to see how scum!freedom thinks.

It's Warrior Cats.

[Freedom]

Can somebody give me a TLDR?

We don't know who is scum

But with a few hours left your slot may be yeeted.

IV no longer TR you and thinks you are the best option for today. Ydra thinks you are the least town. Herta thinks you are a hero shot. Skitter no longer TR you.

I see.

[Freedom]

Absolutely go ahead and lim me if you think I have 40 percent scum equity.

I know you think this is some sort of AtE, but I've been trying (and apparently failing) to appeal to cold logic here.

The non-skitter VT pool are absolutely not going to get resolved by night kill - the only way it happens is via lim. If you aren't sure one or any of us are town, sort it now before it's too late.

You're not even a leading wagon though.

[Freedom]

Let's chop Ydra. I'm not 100% sure but that's what seems most logical to me at this point.

OK.
VOTE: Ydra

[Freedom]

Sigh feels kinda bad that freedom popped in to vote Ydr but oh well

I still want to sort in Firebringer, Ydra and skitter.

[Freedom]

Freedom any other thoughts on the game. Who is town, who is scum. If we flip you what should we do tomorrow?

I think you should lim in my PoE minus skitter.
Ydra's reasoning on the inno felt a bit sketchy.

[Freedom]

Wouldn't be the first Normal I got mislimmed though.

[Freedom]

Freedom any other thoughts on the game. Who is town, who is scum. If we flip you what should we do tomorrow?

I think you should lim in my PoE minus skitter.
Ydra's reasoning on the inno felt a bit sketchy.

Remind me your PoE?

#lazyMath

Firebringer, Ydra and now Val and Herta.
Everybody else I feel OK about being Town except skitter who's null.

[Freedom]

Thanks for modding, Datisi!
I would say that now that I know the setup, I get why Pooky was upset about the balance.
I would agree with Ydra that 1-Shot Unstoppable might have helped counteract Town power.
On the other hand, we won.

[Freedom]

And you can release my PT.