Mini Normal 2285: GM [game over]

[skitter30]

Wait actually i misread what you meant ignore that last posf

[skitter30]

math is unwnd
if you'd like to help me wagon him i wouldn't mind

pedit math
pooky pushed scol
and then scol lurked
not the other way around

you're drawing causality backwards

[skitter30]

math i'm also gonna point out that you have a history of misreading me
the last game i vividly remember playing with you you misflipped me

[skitter30]

math wants to flip pooky and not kitty

[skitter30]

[tweet][/tweet]you had a read on pooky before interacting with him, upon which you're basing your POV of the rest of teh game, so not sure how that logic really holds for kitty or scol

[skitter30]

all of your logic is circular

and that's not how the notion of 'conftown' works, nor does it make scol town, nor does it make pooky scum

you're voting for pooky because you think he's scum
he's scum because you {iv/toto} are voting for him

[skitter30]

vote count 2.04

with 12 votes in play, it takes 7 to make a decision. day 2 ends in (expired on 2022-12-15 15:00:00).

yeet

Scoliosis [6]:

KittyTacky, PookyTheMagicalBear, innocentvillager,

Toto

, Ydrasse, unwnd

Herta [2]:

Val89, skitter30

PookyTheMagicalBear [1]:

Scoliosis

skitter30 [1]:

Herta

not voting [2]:

Freedom, Dannflor

mod notes

~ skitter30 v/la fridays/saturdays
~ freedom v/la 7.12. and 9.12.
~ this is a mod note

flavour

all of unwnd iv and toto are voting scol
scol must be confscum

that's literally your argument

[skitter30]

per vc 2.04 why is scol town?

[skitter30]

that's literally the argument you're making tho
and what you're using to base the rest of your conclusions
why is that different than using that to show that pooky is scum?

[skitter30]

It’s more nuanced than that

You’re doing a straw man and it’s pissing me off

If I was a vig I would shoot you right now

ok you're making up stuff to vote who you want
and i want to flip you now

[skitter30]

per vc 2.04 why is scol town?

Because Scol wasn’t hammered.

that points to scum-scol, not town-scol?

[skitter30]

It’s more nuanced than that

You’re doing a straw man and it’s pissing me off

If I was a vig I would shoot you right now

ok you're making up stuff to vote who you want
and i want to flip you now

You did soon as I posted.

What’s new?

You don’t want to shoot me tonight.

You’re never elimming me.

Push this and I get the Skitter elim I want.

VOTE: math

[skitter30]

i mean it would help if your arguments were based in something

[skitter30]

a little of both

pedit iv who you're saying is conftown is saying just as much as me that he doesn't follow any of your arguments soooooooo
you can't argue that it makes me scummy but not iv

[skitter30]

right my point is that you're applying selective reasoning based on what's convenient

i'm doing the same thing as iv, but different reads
literally same 3 people voting scol and pooky but the former is town, the latter is scum

[skitter30]

idk what you mean abt your opening but i changed my mind when you started saying nonsense

[skitter30]

and i will point out, again, that i've been saying there's scum in {you/pooky} for like over a thousand posts at this point, none of tis is a new conclusion

[skitter30]

idk what you mean abt your opening but i changed my mind when you started saying nonsense

So why am I scum saying nonsense versus town saying nonsense

You argue I am hard to understand but what is scummy about it?

the fact that it seems agenda-driven

[skitter30]

and i will point out, again, that i've been saying there's scum in {you/pooky} for like over a thousand posts at this point, none of tis is a new conclusion

I know youve been saying this can you remind me of why specifically

posts ~450-460 - i dont' think it was a tvt convo

[skitter30]

you're trying to flip pooky, you came into the game trying to do that

and you have an agenda, the logic you're using to support it is quite poor
you're drawing conclusions as convenient

[skitter30]

12 -> 10 kill a conf
10 -> 8 kill a conf
8 -> 7 (no elim here as it is MELO if 3 scum)

So there’s still a conf town in elo

Which is why I am making a big deal of it.

Me, IV, Toto all conf town because 12 alive, not 11. Look at my opening.

You're not conftown
Repeating it doesnt make it so

[skitter30]

12 -> 10 kill a conf
10 -> 8 kill a conf
8 -> 7 (no elim here as it is MELO if 3 scum)

So there’s still a conf town in elo

Which is why I am making a big deal of it.

Me, IV, Toto all conf town because 12 alive, not 11. Look at my opening.

You're not conftown
Repeating it doesnt make it so

Keep scumclaiming. Go for it.

You realize more people than scum-slots have said the same thing, right?

[skitter30]

12 -> 10 kill a conf
10 -> 8 kill a conf
8 -> 7 (no elim here as it is MELO if 3 scum)

So there’s still a conf town in elo

Which is why I am making a big deal of it.

Me, IV, Toto all conf town because 12 alive, not 11. Look at my opening.

You're not conftown
Repeating it doesnt make it so

Keep scumclaiming. Go for it.

You realize more people than scum-slots have said the same thing, right?

Nope.

Only you Kitty and Val have outright refused it.

I thought iv did too, but i am mistaken

Either way are all 3 of us scumclaiming?

[skitter30]

I believe Skitter is scum for the reaction. Even if you don’t believe what I am “selling” it will be proven true. I am not selling I am stating. It’s fact.

I dont believe in putting faith in things that will be 'proven true' in the future, i've been burned too many times. Especially mechanical things

You're making a statement. Why should i believe it now? Why should i believe it now to the point that there's three conftowns day2? That's a wild statement, and *you're not backing it up*

[skitter30]

Cool, should i selfhammer then?

No

[skitter30]

I believe Skitter is scum for the reaction. Even if you don’t believe what I am “selling” it will be proven true. I am not selling I am stating. It’s fact.

I dont believe in putting faith in things that will be 'proven true' in the future, i've been burned too many times. Especially mechanical things

You're making a statement. Why should i believe it now? Why should i believe it now to the point that there's three conftowns day2? That's a wild statement, and *you're not backing it up*

I already did *back it up*

You’re just not town :)

Cool, should i selfhammer then?

But if you'd like to join me on math i wouldnt be opposed

[skitter30]

math that doesn't conftown you and i think it's anti-town at best that you're claiming it does

[skitter30]

and how do you even know you're the reason the kill didn't go through anyways

[skitter30]

and if your'e town what's the point of claiming this today also?
like why did you even enter the game claiming this?

pedit good to know

[skitter30]

* i claimed this today because ___
* i know that my action saved IV because ___
* this makes me conftown because ___

[skitter30]

do you know how many games i've seen where scum claimed that they were mechanically town from a missing nk ?

you are *not* mechanically town
you do not know where the nk went
you do not know that you saved iv

saying these things repeatedly does not make them true, and there's a whole lotta leaps of logic here that do not hold

you didn't need to claim here

you're using this as the basis of your entire game and using it to decide who you should flip, and who's town, but the logic *does not make sense*

and i (and val and enchant and kitty) are not scum for being skeptical

[skitter30]

I don’t think it was necessary for math to claim

Did you guys push him into claiming?

no, he just decided that was a thing he's doing

[skitter30]

you're using a claim that can't be verified that didn't need to be made to create a townbloc that is mechanically baseless
and using that to flip people
while claiming that apparently everyone who doubts you is scummy

pedit and you're scum to me so we're even!
pedit cuz i'm doubting him so i'm bad and scum obv

[skitter30]

and claiming makes me more bad obv

[skitter30]

why am i threatned by you claiming doctor

there's literally nothing proving that you are

why am i desperate? why do i pick a fight with you? if i'm scum why don't i just go 'great, there's a doc!' and kill you tonight
like am i scum with exactly scol/pooky and felt like a i needed a third option? what's my motivation even

and i was literally on pooky ...

and three conftowns don't exist (again as pointed out by me, val, kitty, enchant ...)
pedit not everyone crumbs, i don't as a general rule
and there could be one that you didn't see ?

[skitter30]

yeah good point has unwnd crumbed anything?

[skitter30]

that's not a crumb ...

[skitter30]

2) IV at the end wasn't really splitting hairs but 'only doing this for policy reasons' felt a bit stilted. Felt more like something he feel like he could justify which makes me question my read on him a bit

like

[skitter30]

it's also like - why did he protect iv if that was his read on him?

[skitter30]

no, you're not

[skitter30]

we can agree to stop bickering with each other, sure

[skitter30]

why would i think that
why would i do that

it's p clear that i do not think this conftowns you so why is scum-me threatened by it again?

[skitter30]

i mean he's expecting people to follow him on the basis of being 'conftown', i thought that was p obvious

pedit yeah i'm having a hard time with that

[skitter30]

ok i'm gonna take a deep breath and try not to respond to math posts abt me
as they're inane and i think we're going to continue to go around in circles

[skitter30]

If not believed and you get elimmed that’s horrible.

this wasn't happening
your motivation for anything that you did, or that i'm doing, makes no sense

i am willing to admit that there is a possibility that i'm a little ~annoyed~ about how this went down
and that in the event there is no cc he's probably not scum
but i'm not happy about it

pedit why on earth do i do that as scum again?

[skitter30]

there's no need to be rude
he wasn't getting limmed today (or any time in the near future)

i disagree with your premises and don't feel like i 'had' to do any of the things you're accusing me of so

[skitter30]

very begrudgingly
we should go back to pooky or herta

i don't think scum-enchant volunteers to hammer himself

[skitter30]

i still don't believe the leadup to the scol votes on p19 was a tvt interaction
VOTE: pooky

[skitter30]

Skitter + Enchant? And a scum pulled the town block away? Would have to be a deep wolf. I mean it’s unlikely but it’s possible with your suggestion .

... you're the one who moved the wagon off of scol-slot ...

[skitter30]

i still don't believe the leadup to the scol votes on p19 was a tvt interaction
VOTE: pooky

I read that interaction again and like, I can kinda of see how it looks like one of them is pocketing the other/trying to get them to vote Scol in an agenda-y way

But at the same time like, it’s not clear to me why they can’t both be town? Now that we’re pretty sure unwnd was town, why can’t Pooky just be town there trying to convince someone else to get on his wagon?

Your previous issue iirc seemed to be that unwnd voted for Scol “too easily” but now we think he’s town

you're not going to like this answer but that whole interaction just doesn't *feel* tvt to me
it just feels like one of those convos that's slimy and has scum in it

skitter is there anything you thjnk you’ve done this game that should make us think you’re town here/that you’re not capable of as scum?

i certainly don't think scum-me chooses to pick a fight with someone that's claiming a pr who's misflipped me in the past
scum-me is scared of arguments i dont' think i can win and tries to avoid them

also just fyi while this has been a ton of fun while i've been convalescing i'm going back to work tom, won't be as around as i was today/yesterday during the day

[skitter30]

1/3 is on enchant
i'm on pooky and enchant's on me

[skitter30]

well, i don't feel like i've got a ton of great options otherwise given who else is getting wagoned

i oddly feel like my herta wagon is not gonna take off rn

[skitter30]

Kitty has been obvtown the entire game. That enchant hasn't read anything isn't anything you or anyone else can be expected to know.

And if you look at the specific post from enchant he says there's a pattern of adding nothing to the conversation by kitty and that kitty is giving the impression that he's doing something. For someone who hasn't read the game or at least kitty's iso, that's a fairly disingenuous thing to say. It's a bald accusation with really no basis in fact. This past Day or so I haven't really thought Scoiosis or enchant were particularly scummy, but that post is a damn scummy post. Why make that claim if you don't know what kitty has been doing the game? Near as I can tell it's only to discredit kitty in an effort to distract from something.

Hey random post telegraphing an enchant hammer!

[skitter30]

I don't think we should but it's p clearly inevitable at this point

[skitter30]

@skitter why do you think it’s inevitable we kill Enchant/why didn’t you try to rally the troops for Pooky who is totally a viable wagon?

I dont think pooky is viable at this point at all, where do you think the votes are coming from rn ?
I'm a lot more viable than pooky is, but i'm not gonna vote for myself ...

[skitter30]

Her insistence about there being scum between Pooky and unwnd with little to zero reasoning seems like it would be out of character for scum!skitter, for example

It's a very strong gut vibe, and i tend to be right on those ...
Sometimes there's just a moment in the game that's very pivotal that sticks out and is very illuminating
And i think this is one of them

But i would agree i tend to make sure i have good reasons/trajectory/stuff i can point to as scum

[skitter30]

Reminder that herta trajectory here is p awful
(And if anything thinks *that's* viable lmk)

[skitter30]

Yeah you didn’t vote him sorry I should be more specific

You were clearly gearing up to vote for him is what I mean

So what do you think now? Are you gonna switch to Enchant or do you want Pooky to die more?

I've been voting for pooly for a while, not sure what you mean by the first half

And i'm not going to vote someone i think is flipping town, unless the alternative is literally me

[skitter30]

Part of me wants to lolbrutally murder Herta I feel like that would be irresponsible

I mean hey i think this is a great idea

[skitter30]

it kind of feels like herta is using the kitty townreads as a bludgeon on enchant if that makes sense

What do you mean by this? Kitty has been obvtown.

Why do you say that? I don’t feel “obvTown” vibes from them.

They're one of the towniest players in the game

[skitter30]

Reminder that herta trajectory here is p awful
(And if anything thinks *that's* viable lmk)

You should go through that trajectory. I'm curious as to what my agenda is here.

Why are u voting enchant exactly

[skitter30]

Indeed, gl

[skitter30]

it kind of feels like herta is using the kitty townreads as a bludgeon on enchant if that makes sense

What do you mean by this? Kitty has been obvtown.

Why do you say that? I don’t feel “obvTown” vibes from them.

They're one of the towniest players in the game

Because ….

They're very earnest and i don't see their desire to flip enchant coming from scum trying to misflip someone. They seem to geninely believe the read and it carries through in their whole POV to the game

Just really hard for me to see scum playing the way they are

[skitter30]

Spoiler:

Sorry I'm just pissed that someone I think is town is being pushed for no reason when there's a literally useless slot who scummed it up for 1.5 days whose wagon stalled. And still lingering rage at gera's throw.

Im kind of shocked at how easy it was to start the Pooky wagon

unwnd/math might be scum trying to lolpush a wagon started by wrong town imo.

Why the fuck are we voting Pooky when Scol is lurking it up. This is what scum wants.

Are you sure that you're not getting confbiased now?

Yes. Why are we voting an active player when someone who is scummy as balls is literally frozen?

Why the fuck are we voting Pooky when Scol is lurking it up. This is what scum wants.

It's not Pooky. I can't see Pooky. I am willing to concede Pooky may be scum if Scol is town but I want Scol first.

I originated the push, not Pooky, I'd have kept pushing and someone else would have probably joined in. Maybe I'm overestimating myself.

Alright.

I believe Pooky when he says he tries harder aa town.

Scol is scum = Scol wouldn't be under so much pressure if not for Pooky and could have lived-- I don't even think he would be so demoralized if he didn't have 2 people heavily pushing on him so I don't think it's a bus. Would have been easy to dismiss it as "KT tunneling as usual".

Scol is town = seems too aggressive to be a scum push on town imo. Scum is usually a bit more careful with pushing town. Recklessness is town.

I can't fully ignore Scol per se since so much of Pooky's content revolved around him, but his alignment doesn't matter here.

I just don't "feel" Pooky scum at all. I try to look at his actions from a scum perspective whether Scol is scum or town and it doesn't make much sense? I don't see it.

@math posts like these feel very townie to me
It's also about how there's this consistent pov thru which he's viewing the rest of the game (scol is scum -> this is how i therefore view pooky) and things like that

[skitter30]

Yeah you didn’t vote him sorry I should be more specific

You were clearly gearing up to vote for him is what I mean

So what do you think now? Are you gonna switch to Enchant or do you want Pooky to die more?

I've been voting for pooly for a while, not sure what you mean by the first half

And i'm not going to vote someone i think is flipping town, unless the alternative is literally me

I don’t know how you thought this was directed at you but it was at Herta

I'm not sure but yeah i was confused lol

[skitter30]

Reminder that herta trajectory here is p awful
(And if anything thinks *that's* viable lmk)

You should go through that trajectory. I'm curious as to what my agenda is here.

Why are u voting enchant exactly

He isn’t (I need to clarify this before he gets mad again)

But i really thjnk he should explain his stance on Pooky vs Enchant rn bc it is not very clear at all atm

Apologies, i could have sworn there was an actual vote
But my point is the same, it's unclear exactly why he wants to

[skitter30]

VOTE: skitter

>.>

[skitter30]

I would like to finally flip herta now
VOTE: herta

[skitter30]

you think she was just whiteknighting scol?

I'm more leaning Pooky today personally

I could do pooky too but my prefernce is herta

[skitter30]

All three scum on enchants wagon? If not at least one in skitter/herta

All three scum on enchants wagon? If not at least one in skitter/herta

Told you Enchant was town.

I am MathBlade though so my wordy words no work good.

I mean so did i ...

[skitter30]

I feel KT needs to be reevaluated after yesterday's flip.

I’d also consider Pooky Skitter Val.

Val bussing Skitter to look better later.

That is actually like lol but ok

[skitter30]

And kt is p obviously town still

[skitter30]

I'm fine with putting pooky at e1 as well but i stll prefer herta and if we do pooky today i want herta tomorrow

[skitter30]

Val bussing me

And not in a funny sense, in a 'how can you even think that makes sense' sense

[skitter30]

the sun rises. everyone is alive to see it.

it is now day 4.

Lol

[skitter30]

Are we gonna see like 5 people die tomorrow because mafia are planning on chaining nightkills

I assume that isn’t possible in a normal game but Datisi did say it was complex…?

Yeah i really dont think this is a thing

Can we plz vote herta now?

VOTE: herta

Agreed that val looks worse

[skitter30]

Arsonist is not normal

[skitter30]

Idk why scum would purposefully no kill tbh
But there is obv something a little screwy with the nks

[skitter30]

Idk what those words mean

[skitter30]

Lol
But id someone can actually translate that statement I would appreciate it

[skitter30]

It's a chatbot, it isnt meant to solve a mafia game

[skitter30]

Although i think you can probably build something
That wouldn't necessarily be able to solve it fully
But can give you an edge

[skitter30]

i kinda think the tiger is inno

Because ...

[skitter30]

Herta >.>

[skitter30]

No, this is just the one that i think is scum

[skitter30]

I think there has to be scum in the pr claims at this point, this doesnt make sense otherwise

[skitter30]

i jailkept Skitter last night.
So either scum shot at me while math was healing me (at least i think math healed me)
Shot into skitter.
No killed hoping my JK was frame

Or scum is just skitter who tried to kill.

Pick ur theory

Well i would be quite surprised if scum tried to kill me
And scum shooting at you is a little ???? given math indicated he was gonna be on you
And i know i didnt try to kill anyone last night

So ... i'm left with a nk frame or you being scum

[skitter30]

Kinda?

Fire/ydra > math at this point

[skitter30]

Idk why scum-ydra claims to check me tho here

[skitter30]

So ... i'm left with a nk frame or you being scum

do u think scum had good idea i would jailkeep u

Let me reread your eod

[skitter30]

So ... i'm left with a nk frame or you being scum

do u think scum had good idea i would jailkeep u

Not from your iso yesterday, no

[skitter30]

I think there has to be scum in the pr claims at this point, this doesnt make sense otherwise

You could be right.
It's weird if scum decided to NK you over Toto.
That would be the same for Firebringer who Math said that he was going to protect.

There's like a negative 4000% chance scum tried to nk me last night
And trying to shoot fire when math said he was was fonna be on him is, uh, questionable at best

[skitter30]

???

disloyal checker go through on wolf not town
i got no result

you got roleblocked by me tho?

I thought you JKed skitter not Ydra.

Jailkeeps stop all actions from hitting the target including kills

No, that's ascetic / alien
Jk just prevents kills (and rbs)

[skitter30]

???

disloyal checker go through on wolf not town
i got no result

you got roleblocked by me tho?

I thought you JKed skitter not Ydra.

Jailkeeps stop all actions from hitting the target including kills

No, that's ascetic / alien
Jk just prevents kills (and rbs)

We need massclaim

Vt

[skitter30]

I also think it's fire fwiw

And yeah i got ascetic mixed up with rolestopper, sorry

[skitter30]

I also think it's fire fwiw

so my dastardly plan was to no kill 2 nights. back up mathblade doc claim with a fake claim.
Then say someone is trying to frame u.

Got it.

I am a genius

I am eminently frameable here, i agree
I'm still working through the implications of all of this

[skitter30]

So n1 math blocked the kill -> no other claimed explanation for the lack of nk
N2 fire is claiming he jk'd math -> no other claimed explanation for the lack of nk
N3 math docced fire, and fire jk'd me -> too many possible explanations for the nk

And scum apparently never tried to kill toto
Ydra is claiming disloyal something with an inno on me

Is that where we're at?

[skitter30]

I also think it's fire fwiw

so my dastardly plan was to no kill 2 nights. back up mathblade doc claim with a fake claim.
Then say someone is trying to frame u.

Got it.

I am a genius

I think your scum kill failed the first night.

The second night was a no kill to frame whoever you jailkept meaning that we would look at a Kitty or a Val. It’s only a matter of if you’re scum or not.

By hypothesizing I can get reactions

What happened last night then?

[skitter30]

Scum not killing n2 is a little ???? to me as well
I can see it n3 after missing twice tho

[skitter30]

Actually sorry for 1) most likely is skitter scum.

Fwiw given that i was basically the most sus person in the game yesterday, i would be quite surprised if scum-me did the kill

[skitter30]

Something is weird here and not adding up

[skitter30]

I think there's one scum in each of {pr claims} and {vt claims}

[skitter30]

Herta in vt
And ydra in pr

[skitter30]

Herta in vt
And ydra in pr

I see.
Why Ydra?

doesn't seem to match the rest of the setup, and idk why she waits until n3
but tbh the whole pr mess doesn't add up much to me, even if ydra is scum i'm still kinda confused what happened to the nk last night tho ...

[skitter30]

i don't think scum no-killed n1/n2
but i could see it happening n3

also at this point in the vt's i feel like i've given freedom a pass they probably don't really deserve

[skitter30]

Toto
math
Kitty
Fire
Ydra

---
Iv
Val, freedom
Herta

This is where i'm at in each section

[skitter30]

Were you on iv twice?

[skitter30]

And i think i can do freedom as well

[skitter30]

Freedom is kind of a hero shot. He has no interactions with anyone really at least none that mean anything I don't think. So his flip is wasted if green bc no associations. I don't it but I'd rather someone who gives us an idea of rest of team.

@skitter this is the sort of comment I don’t really see coming from scum. Idk I don’t feel like scum talk about slots in this way.

I'm kinda at a loss where scum is rn tbh

[skitter30]

And i think i can do freedom as well

Can you explain?

I'm realizing i don't have a reason to tr u

[skitter30]

Think freedom might need to be looked at later too. Not sure.

What if we are making this too hard and scum shot IV twice?

VOTE: Freedom

Wym?

I doctored IV N1 and N2 and Fire N3.

We assume scum shot me. But if fire claimed to block me and is scum Fire Freedom works too.

Because then IV would be the threat. That was his last D2 post.

I'm confused, werent you townreading fire yesterday for you not dying n2?

[skitter30]

*she
Well fire and ydra are both claiming they think i'm town after their actions last night, which is kinda ??? to me

Like i certainly don't mind but something feels off here

[skitter30]

Think freedom might need to be looked at later too. Not sure.

What if we are making this too hard and scum shot IV twice?

VOTE: Freedom

Wym?

I doctored IV N1 and N2 and Fire N3.

We assume scum shot me. But if fire claimed to block me and is scum Fire Freedom works too.

Because then IV would be the threat. That was his last D2 post.

I'm confused, werent you townreading fire yesterday for you not dying n2?

I was. But then I started looking at simpler answers since I don’t see how with the premises I had things added up.

Why would you think fire blocked an nk on you if you had acted that night
I thought you were saying you didnt have a shot that night

[skitter30]

*she
Well fire and ydra are both claiming they think i'm town after their actions last night, which is kinda ??? to me

Like i certainly don't mind but something feels off here

Agreed.
I think that there's at least 1 scum in {you, Fire, Ydra}.

I mean i think fire/ydra, but agreed

[skitter30]

Why would you think fire blocked an nk on you if you had acted that night

This doesnt make sense at all to me

[skitter30]

Herta most likely imo, then fire

[skitter30]

are we like 98%+ sure on Kt being town by mech? The all mafia ninja public info shit makes zero sense without there being a real town watcher right? Also scum wouldn’t claim a major non gated role like that I assume

I think he's town on play but tbh i'm getting wary of clearing anyone based on mech at this point

[skitter30]

I think we should focus reading people in dayplay instead of mech at this point l, because something doesn't add up and with the information we have i don't thibj it's fully possible to solve the mech puzzle

[skitter30]

i'm here i'm here
my interest in mafia just kinda fell by the wayside last week, i'm going to try to get back into it

[skitter30]

the only explanation for the lost nk n1 is that math docced iv, right? fire didn't act that night so that's where the kill had to have gone?

[skitter30]

and all scum are ninjas
i think that points to kitty being town
(it doesn't fit with anything else and this is a really random claim for scum to come up with)

and i think math is town because:
* no other explanation for n1
* i don't think pooky looks aligned with math given their argment when math repped in

so let's start there

pedit mafia not shooting n1 is wild
like i've never even seen such a thing wild

[skitter30]

that is also p wild
but i just can't wrap my mind around choosing to no kill n1, that makes no sense at all
so i'm going to ignore that possibility and go with math doccing the nk of iv, occam's razor and all that

(tbh the whole game is kinda wild, there's been no nks so far and the macho ic is still alive. tbh toto that kinda points to your reads being wrong imo, why are you still here, even?)

[skitter30]

why didn't you die last night tho?

also i was right r.e. there being scum in unwnd/pooky, which is nice
i think pooky's iso looks aligned with herta, he was trying to protect the slot for ? reasons most of the game

[skitter30]

idk what that would be
the simplest explanation is that they don't feel particularly threatened by your reads, otherwise you'd presumably be a v dead kitty cat

[skitter30]

well yea I wanted to murder Scol

and me and enchant apparently
so yeah that makes sense

[skitter30]

and all scum are ninjas
i think that points to kitty being town
(it doesn't fit with anything else and this is a really random claim for scum to come up with)

and i think math is town because:
* no other explanation for n1
* i don't think pooky looks aligned with math given their argment when math repped in

so let's start there

pedit mafia not shooting n1 is wild
like i've never even seen such a thing wild

I think it points towards Kitty scum mechanically. (It’s at odds with my playread)

Kitty’s role is to find the TPRs.

1. aren't you ninja? that sort of contradicts the notion of 'his role is to find the tprs' from your pov, no?
2. why would he, like, claim watcher here as scum
3. reads > mechanics and i think he's town on play

i won't vote him today

[skitter30]

i don't think tere's a dichotomy between kitty and fire at all

[skitter30]

so out of all the prs, i want to put math, kitty in the town-for-now bucket

leaving ydra and fire as potential scum in the prs

ydra: i've no idea why she decides to inno me as scum here
fire: his play overall is a little too 'wacky' to come from scum imo? he was p hard on pooky, he would have had to not nk2 as well, and he's not really pursuing his soft guilty on me (well until the last couple of pages but fair enuf)

my gut is that the scum is in these 2 but idk which and i think this where i need to do some more work

[skitter30]

are we trying to untangle the pr mess today or vote in the vts?

[skitter30]

Ok that is actually wild
If scum actually nokilled it would indeed incriminate ydra there
+ i would be less confident in math and you

But, like, there would have to be a reason to no kill, like what would they be getting out of it? Trying to conf math's slot is maybe the only thing i can think of

[skitter30]

I think it's technically possible
But unless there's a v strong motive not very likely

the only thing i can think of is trying to make math conf'd
And i don't even think he was in the game that night iirc

So maybe like just trying to make the unwnd slot confed
And i can see unwnd going along with it
But overall it's just, like, very ????? and not a super likely explanation for what happened that night

And actually i'm not sure it really incriminates ydra, i don't really see any motivation for her being part of this

Pedit i think that's fair, i've been somewhat lower motivation this game than i usually am

[skitter30]

Spoiler:

Herta's very stilted as scum - here the flow feels natural

Why are you townreading all of:me, herta, freedom, and unwnd

you just feel pretty townie to me

like peta says you're just kind of an easy read

the way I read you is mostly looking at your posts - comparing to thread and seeing if you're keeping up and generally how much you want to be here. if you feel like you want to be here/engage I slot you as town. You have issues keeping up with the thread this starts looking worse. Granted this isn't the fastest moving game so its not like foolproof way to slot you rn it still feels to me like you are engaged in the game and actually enjoying playing. I know I am biased because your last two scum games you kind of flaked out and those were larges moving at p fast speed but I think this is closer to how you looked in the coalition run than either of those scum games.

herta is very stilted as mafia, he doesn't really flow into the thread, it's like the guy at the party who has a drink in his hand but isn't involved in any of the conversations.

freedom is town because when he's scum, his questions are agenda-y and you can sort of see where he's trying to push something - here he's just kind of asking random things and popping in to say things.

unwnd is town because his play is completely perpendicular to his scum play - it is unstructured and freeflowing in a way that I don't think he really enjoys doing in general and especially as scum because chaos is the enemy of making plans.

I don't see Herta's vote on Scoli as scummy because I would kind of expect Town!Herta to just sheep me atp in the game because I don't see anything more compelling to do for him - you're saying its oppurtunistic/scum motivated but I don't see why Herta!Town would be compelled by my reasoning and decide to sheep me.

are my points against scoli unreasonable for him to believe in?

i remain wholly unconvinced by your herta push but I am willing to switch just for you if you ask nicely because I am trying to be a nicer person. how much confidence do you actually have that he flips mafia here

UNVOTE:

herta can you share some more of your thoughts with us please

Herta wall feels v town to me.

He could be just replicating what he did last time we were t/t but I have doubts he remembers.

skitter30, Herta

p wild that these two have been tunneled on each other as scum but think its cool to work together

this is where my reads are after full reread:

town:
ydra, iv, herta, freedom, unwnd, skitter, toto

neutral:
val, gera, kt

scum:
scol, dann


i'm willing to kill scol or dann today what do you think

VOTE: dannflor

pooky came into the game hard townreading herta, and basically never reconsidered that read
it's flimsy and looks baseless imo, it looks like he wants to be townreading herta and if herta is town idk why this is the one flip-bait-y slot he never seemed interested in voting

[skitter30]

Scoliosis [4]: KittyTacky, Dannflor, unwnd, Ydrasse

Squad

(Which one of you two is scum)

This is day2?

[skitter30]

Math repped in day2
And p immediately started softing doc

So for pooky/ydra/math to make sense
1. Scum choose to no kill n1 to set up a doc claim
2. Ydra hints at that
3. Math as soon as he reps in starts softing doc?
(In conflict to ydra? Why didnt unwnd soft?)

[skitter30]

I'm not sure what your pointis then, i feel like that scenario is not super likely?

[skitter30]

So scum-math reps in
Claims doc which his pred wasnt and his partner was angling towards
Clears a townie
And gets into a massive fight with his partner
And flips him
?

[skitter30]

Because there was no reason to think iv was conftown/no way to know if unwnd was the source of the nk

Now that there's no other claims that might explain it
It looks more likely
But i still wouldnt call it conftown

[skitter30]

ydra can be scum but i think no-killing n1 is wild
but if that happened math has to be scum with her here

[skitter30]

that doesn't even make sense

[skitter30]

?

[skitter30]

And actually i'm not sure it really incriminates ydra, i don't really see any motivation for her being part of this

mmmmmmMMMMMMMMMmmmmmMMMMmmmm
sHe also said this after

Was this to me or ydra?

[skitter30]

He apparently thinks i'm scum with fire and that fire actually jk'd ydra while claiming a soft guilty on me, which is just
..

[skitter30]

Val what do u think abt pooky/math interactions the day math repped in?
How do they align with this theory?

[skitter30]

Oh I did read that.

I mean sure that does help a bit (it’s easy to theorize about association stuff I guess?) but id like to know what she thinks about herta by himself now ig

still scummy + makes sense as a pooky partner

[skitter30]

Val what do u think abt pooky/math interactions the day math repped in?
How do they align with this theory?

@val

[skitter30]

Freedom is kind of a hero shot. He has no interactions with anyone really at least none that mean anything I don't think. So his flip is wasted if green bc no associations. I don't it but I'd rather someone who gives us an idea of rest of team.

@skitter this is the sort of comment I don’t really see coming from scum. Idk I don’t feel like scum talk about slots in this way.

I'm okay with doing but this is one of the more interesting games I've been in.

Herta is town scum dont say shit like this lol

Bro idk why but when I read (and even now just on reread) these two posts of Herta I just can’t for the life of me figure out why scum would say something like this

It sounds so dumb but my gut is saying town for these posts alone, especially the second one

i don't think either of these are particularly townie, and i don't get any townie vibes when i read them

i feel like i've been trying to get herta for most of this game and instead we've taken a series of detours on a whole bunch of other people that i thought were town, which was annoyign and somewhat frustrating. i want herta. i think they're scummy, and i think they look aligned with pooky. none of that has changed at any point in the last eighty pages or whatever you cited, and i still want to flip them.

Pooky could’ve just had TMI on Herta and saw things in his town game than uninformed players wouldn’t?

i dont' know why pooky lol-defends herta but goes after scol and gera - from his pov if herta is town they should be in the same sort of bucket as scol and gera and the same sort of misflip. he repeatedly chose not to take that option. that makes a lot of sense to me if they're aligned, and idk why he played this way if they aren't

So in order for this to work out, Pooky needs to make the decision in a few minutes to rush Herta on his catch-up notes and give him an opportunity to towntell. Which like, fine, it could happen, but a) why didn’t Herta check in with the scum PT before just doing it? The other wagon was Scoliosis who is also town, so there was no rush to E1 gera and b) why does scum Herta have all those notes basically done if he’s not planning on theatering with Pooky?

i don't find this interaction particularly unlikely at all, and idk why it needs to have been part of the 'plan' or why you think pooky/herta would necessarily be checking in a scum PT for a plan here - we know at this point that both gera and scol were town and that it looks like one or the other would be the flip that day - this wasn't a particularly critical or sensitive juncture for scum, i'm not sure why you think they would need to coordinate this and predicating the rest of the analysis on that assumption

like i'm not sure why you think scum are 'rushing' or need to 'plan' here or why this interaction needs to have been prepared theater

The Occam’s razor of what’s going on there is Herta is an E1 happy person and

Pooky saw an opportunity to posture/pretend he was helping town by slowing down the leading wagon when all the wagons were on town anyway.

He didn’t expect Herta to actually come up with a townish looking wall so he felt like with his trajectory he had to called Herta town later, even if he had TMId him at the beginning

like i agree with the bolded but i dont' think it has townie-implications for herta in the way you're reading it

One thing that gives me pause is Pooky is 100% capable of hard defending a partner, I saw it once in Team Mafia 2021 where he literally defended his partner Kanna and yelled at the town about how bad they were during her twilight, lol. So Pooky could’ve felt that he was good enough to bullshit some vibe townread on his scum partner Herta.

yes, that's my point

~
assorted other thoughts:

i would flip freedom as well
i disagree with most of val's analysis but end of the day i don't think they're scum unless it's with exactly, like, fire and i think there's scummy enough slots elsewhere that this isn't where i'm willing to start

~

i'm finding the mechanics mess somewhat difficult to sort through, and there's enough missing information that i don't think it's really possible to understand scum's motivations or draw significant conclusions out of many of the night actions as we don't actually know where the kills went or where they were trying to target - we're living in a world where we're seriously considering possibilities of scum no-killing multiple nights

like yes a rolestopper could have been used on me, sure. there's no evidence of that existing but it's abt as good as a theory as anything else at this point

[skitter30]

It was important for us to know 0 that there were ninjas. Otherwise the game is unbalanced??? Or is the ninja thing a red herring? It doesn't feel like it is. I mean what is it distracting us from?

i am at the point where we should ignore mechanics and focus on play tbh

[skitter30]

I think some of the Freedom townread was really just liking his playstyle of poking around and seeming uninformed. In retrospect a lot of that feels fakeable and past that I don’t really think I have another amazing reason to TR him. And given the state of the PoE it’s where I feel the least anxiety about flipping I guess

yeah agreed, my tr there from way back when has basically eroded

[skitter30]

Skitter I feel like you answered everything except for the main question: why is Herta scum, other than Pooky’s supposed weird favoritism of him?

1. i don't think they're really solving
2. i feel like many of their votes are opportunistic and do not imply or bely a trajectory that i can follow
3. i don't know why this flip is like impossible to get if they're town here - why is it so hard to flip them ?
4. i think they look aligned with pooky

i can come up with reasons to townread a whole lot of other people but i'm still struggling here
and don't see a good reason to change my mind tbh

[skitter30]

Skitter why am I scummy as opposed to freedom?

tbh we're getting to the point where i can vote freedom too

[skitter30]

i would prefer to flip in the vts than in the prs because i think the prs are more likely to get resolved via nks and i don't think that's going to happen with most of the vts

i also really don't think val is scum here and wouldn't vote him
my preference is for herta and then freedom

[skitter30]

If fire is scum he just went in blind and did this without consulting team

fwiw i think you give a lot more weight to this sort of thing than you should, i don't think scum consult with their partners as often as you seem to think they do

pedit well this is why i think you're scum now

[skitter30]

Her Herta push seems too flimsy and weirdly tunneled if she’s scum

I’m left going very ??? At a lot of it and not in a scum struggling to come up with reasons way

i like to imagine i can come up with better pushes as scum than whatever i'm doing now

[skitter30]

i mean fair
but also like if anybody's dying it's not the vts

[skitter30]

Can we do this now plz
VOTE: herta

Val - i think math would now be a regular doctor who lost his ninjaness

[skitter30]

Fuck, I'm fine with Freedom too if Herta isn't going anywhere.

VOTE: Freedom

I don't think it matters.

VOTE: Freedom

VOTE: Freedom

I think there's scum here
(Cough herta cough)

@val i agree with you, i don't thinj all of the prs can be town
And that there's probably a scum in kitty/math

[skitter30]

i dont' think val is scum tbh

[skitter30]

The thing with math scum is that i'm still not sure he reps in, claims doc, and decides to tunnel on pooky. Their interactions that day don't really seem faked to me

Maybe i need to revisit my kitty read

[skitter30]

The thing with math scum is that i'm still not sure he reps in, claims doc, and decides to tunnel on pooky. Their interactions that day don't really seem faked to me

Val can u address this bit plz

[skitter30]

Val can u address this bit plz

The bit where pooky was offering up Sco + yourself + Unwnd as the team, all while Unwnd was expressing doubts on the town IV he had just saved, then Math reps in, starts softing all kinds of PRs and then settles on a doc claim who saved IV and who knows Pooky is scum while suddenly pooky decides, actually this new rep is absolutely town, all while they are been pushed, and then goes into anti-spew mode and self-hammers the next day?

I'm not sure what you think the issue is, really. The point of a N1 no kill was to enable a fake doc claim to go deep, and busing what is essentially a goon who is catching heat from the legit town you've cleared for the towncred seems perfectly in keeping with that plan.

I find it a bit of a stretch that scum-math reps in and within minutes is up to date on such a plan to fake a pr and to bus pooky

That being said i don't think scum-val votes himself here either

[skitter30]

Nobody visited Val. Get Fire, I have an indirect guilty.

VOTE: Firebringer

There's like seventeen indirect guilties at this point, i'm not sure i would give this one that much weight tbh

[skitter30]

VOTE: Unvote

I am not convinced on the guilty claim but am willing to hear it out and see where people fall.

But i'm also confused why you would drop this here

[skitter30]

I actually really don't like 3570

[skitter30]

interesting theory.
Scum no kill night one. Maybe they forgot to submit or something?
Then math comes in gives an explanation of the no kill to pocket IC.

Then goes to kill skitter who is on to him. I stop it.
Scum would still be herta/math in this world right?

Idk if i believe scum just no kill night 1 or forget to put in action. It was definitely not a pre arranged plan of claiming doc imo. What if math is a scum ninja doctor?

Tbh i think the simplest explanation is scum running into math's doc protect

I don't think scum forgetting to kill n1 is plausible, nor do i really like the 'purposefully didnt kill to set up the doc' theory

I don't really want a gladiate between math and val. I strongly think val is town on play and while i kinda hate how math is playing this occam's razor is just that his slot docced the target n1.

Can we plzzzzz vote herta

Pedit hey fire
I think the above post is kinda abrasive and icky

[skitter30]

I think the way that Kitty has handled this day is very ++town and if he is scum my mouth is on the floor

Yes agreed

I'm at: yoy/val/kitty are town by play
Math is probably town
Fire ydra
Herta

[skitter30]

I know my one of my vibe reads is off

Herta ...

[skitter30]

I don't honestly know how even 3570 could be alignment indicative to begin with.
unless ur going with the tone or aggressiveness being scummy in itself in which case i go.....when do i as scum play in aggressive manner to get my point accross I guess?

idk the tone is just ... really off

[skitter30]

I think the way that Kitty has handled this day is very ++town and if he is scum my mouth is on the floor

Yes agreed

I'm at: yoy/val/kitty are town by play
Math is probably town
Fire ydra
Herta

I feel like we have identical reads except flip ydra and herta and slot you in the fire/herta tier

sure so if herta is that far down let's flip him!

[skitter30]

i'm kinda becoming less confident on math tbh

[skitter30]

Well i'm not voting val amd i'm not convinced it's fire so who should i vote ?

[skitter30]

Kinda having a hard time seeing why scum-her decides to lolfake that result on me

Pedit indeed

[skitter30]

Be very sad and rethink my entire existance, but i don't think we live in that universe

I don't know who the third is rn
But i think it's in {fire math ydra}

I'm not following the point abt town her faking a guilty ?

[skitter30]

Kinda having a hard time seeing why scum-her decides to lolfake that result on me

Pedit indeed

I don’t get why town her fakes a guilty.

And she did whether she says that’s what it is or not.

Was this abt kitty or ydra ?

[skitter30]

Also he wasnf trying to fake a guilty on fire, he was trying to get an actionable clear on him, so i've no idea what you're talking abt

[skitter30]

So apparently I am not on the same page as math, sorry for the confusion skit.

But I don’t see why scum Ydra can’t say she checked you. What was she supposed to do?

As scum idk why she claims a check on anybody at all

[skitter30]

it doesn't make sense to me that someone would think that is like... a rational plan and believe it?

Yes but it's also wild for scum to make this up, no?

[skitter30]

I don't understand how math is approaching this anymore

[skitter30]

it doesn't make sense to me that someone would think that is like... a rational plan and believe it?

Yes but it's also wild for scum to make this up, no?

Like i agree with you that his reasoning doesnt make so much sense, but idk how that makes him scum and i dont think scum bluster abt getting voted and then self vote today

It's hard for me to see his actions today coming from scum even if i disagree with his solve the

[skitter30]

VOTE: Firebringer

I'm actually leaning math/ydra over fire in the prs rn

[skitter30]

No I don’t have anyone willing to vote you.

Literally everyone is defending you.

And no I don’t think Ydrasse is viable.

- you arent trying to get val flipped at all
- ydra seems kinda viable to me, no?

Like what's your solve rn ?

[skitter30]

i mean at this point im pretty sure scum want to save herta either because he is scum or they think it looks bad to lim town him for....reasons i guess

Indeed

[skitter30]

I want herta
I am possibly willing to be convinced on math or ydra at this point

[skitter30]

Surprisingly i'm not sure how i feel abt that vote

[skitter30]

i mean at this point im pretty sure scum want to save herta either because he is scum or they think it looks bad to lim town him for....reasons i guess

Indeed

who are the scum trying to save Herta? (@ both Fire and skitter) Math and me...?

I'm starting to doubt math a bit

[skitter30]

Sorry i'm dealing with some ~stuff irl

I dont really like how ydra is bouncing around in the last few pages, i am willing to vote there

I will note tho that i still think math is scummy today too

[skitter30]

I'm going to vote ydra. We good ending the day?

[skitter30]

Hey sorry busy day

VOTE: fire
I think you're scum with herta at this point

[skitter30]

I'm at a thing but i will have a lot to say later
Gg town, you played well
Thanks dats for modding

[skitter30]

I've had several writeups abt the setup in the scum PT, but in short, this was very Not Fun to play, and we knew we were going to get mechanically poe'd since ~day3, which zapped basically all of my motivation

[skitter30]

skitter the only critique i have of ur play is ur tunnel on herta became more unbelievable as time went on. especially today but other than that u got POEd scum and there wasn't much u can do. I think u played extremely well despite that and u handled my semi-guilty well enough that it made me question and reconsider it.

Idk what u and ydra were thinking though on that inno on u.

Yeah, i kinda knew it was, but i didnt feel like i had a lot of options either

You/math were *maybe* misflippable yesterday but at that point i didnt have enuf motivation to try to make it happen

I will admit readily that this was not my 'cleanest' game, i actually don't think i played this that well so i appreciate you saying it

The inno was basically: we're screwed and not winning this so lol why not

[skitter30]

if this was mountainous u guys win this 10/10 times.
I do think this was town sided but i do think once u knew me and math roles u could have chosen better targets or better people to perform the kill.

The issue with the setup is basically that we had no way to deal with layers of protectives, and the protectives that did exist forced us to kill specific players in a specific order (if we even managed to get the kill off)

By dayplay we absolutely made the right choices n1/n2, we had no reason to think a doc or jk existed

N3 was a mistake - neither of us realized math was goijg to be on fire. I didnt actually make the kill that night

I basically wrote this in the scum pt like a month ago, but:

- we were told the ic ninja enable existed, and that the watcher existed
- we were therefore strictly disincentivized to target the ic before targeting the watcher
- n1 we didnt know who the watcher was and tried to tatget iv for dayplay reasons
- he got docced, fine that happens
- at that point we knew the doc existed (i picked up on math crumbs within like two posts, we knew it was him *well* before he fully claimed)
- so n2 we go to kill the doc so we can later go and kill the watcher so we can later go kill the ic
- he doesnt die. We find out there's a loljk
- so to kill the ic we need to kill the watcher (who we need to find) and there'd a jk/doc running around with infinite shots that we 'd need a lot of luck to kill and we can't do anything abt the ic/watcher until we handle the jk/doc
- at that point motivation is zapped and we're basically forced to kill slots in very specific orders, and we were p sure that depending on how many shots you had we could get poe'd mechanically
- we basically had no agency in who to kill, and weren't even sure we *could* on a given night
- it felt a lot like we were punisged for making the right nk choices

The path to vicyory was not flipping ydra yesterday, killing you last night, being in elo today with val/math and having val vote math in 6way elo

And neither of us had the motivation yestersay to really prevent her flip

[skitter30]

It also felt like we were playing to what we all knew was a loss for a very long time irl and it was v hard to keep motivation when we all knew this was likely mechanically unwinnable
It just kinda took town a while to realize that

[skitter30]

Yeah that's why i felt ok conceding even tho i don't really like to do that, we had kinda wanted to a while avo anyways

[skitter30]

Yeah i do want to give a lot of credit to town, you made a lot of good choices and had very good nightplay

I don't think killing iv n1 was a mistake (and even if it was, it should not have sunk the rest of the game as much as it did)

Rn i am still a little frustrated but i am sure i will get to where pooky is in a bit, sorry if i'm complaining a lot lol

[skitter30]

And agreed, iv u played super well in the beginning (that's why i wanted to kill you!)

And math/fire you did very well taking this to the end

Val, you're not a clown at all, i agreed with most of your setup based arguments, and you had totally caught me in the beginning. I think you played v well and i would love to play with you in the future

[skitter30]

i think you played well too, esp. capturing pooky very early on, as well as being obvtown enuf to not get flipped

i would not have claimed doc here (like i said even with just the crumbs i got it within something like two posts), and i think you could have been a little more focused on trying to read people on play vs mechanics (i.e. we could have exploited you wanting to flip val/fire yesterday)

[skitter30]

i think i stretched my range in picking that fight with you about being doc, i don't think i've ever done that before

[skitter30]

it wasn't inherently the IC, it was the watcher/doc/jk combo that was the issue
(+ you being ninja enabler)

[skitter30]

>.>
it's not even named after me lol

[skitter30]

i'm not mafia anymore >.>