Mini Normal 2280 | Music Hits of 2015-2019 | GAME OVER

[MalcolmTucker]

Hello.

[MalcolmTucker]

'Ello 'ello 'ello.....

God this game took ages to start, i was observing the Queue for ages waiting.

i think i recognise most of the people's names. i would suggest (from past experience) that if there is a cop type role in the game that Crescent gets checked night 1, they cannot be allowed as scum to get too far into the game.

Why? Are they deepwolf type player?

I'll check in during the day, as I can. Just expect more from me at night!

Vampire confirmed, gotcha
Anyways, here we have gone from the 2nd to a 3rd

If I remember right, vampire isn’t a normal role?

that pink is an awful colour to read.

i've only played with them as town, and so far they have been a competent player (i was scared of them when mafia) but their posting style tends to dominate the game if left unchecked, they post long posts that are usually well formed and if they are scum and they are not checked by night action they will be very hard to vote off late in the game. i cannot think of a time they were ever noticeably under pressure of being voted out, so if there is someone around who can check their alignment it would be one of the first places to go - certainly what i would be doing

Depends on the game and my mood entering the game. I was very much in the background for much of 2278. I didn't have it for that game and I knew I didn't have it.

It does nag at me a little that this is his first contribution. I've been shot by night 2 in my last three minis, and scum you would definitely prioritize shooting me. Scanning me in general can be a good thing since I don't particularly have "tells", but making a point of it this early doesn't really vibe right with me.

I actually think Ger's post is kinda townie, especially given your response which could have potentially been anticipated in advance. I think Ger's just pointing out you're a capable and skilled player who'd be good at blending in as scum. From the one game we've played together I'd argue that's an accurate assessment. But if Ger is scum then I don't think there's any reason for them to want to attract your ire or any suspicion at all.

[MalcolmTucker]

I used to do gutty townreads and scumreads page 1 and they were almost always wrong

I think a lot of players try to force/overstate early reads either to get the game going and to just see how other players react, or to just get in some townie credentials early on by showing they're willing to try and solve. Sometimes the former can be helpful to open up the game in a bit from more combative type players.

[MalcolmTucker]

I don’t know if it’s all that great. What if you are town reading scum, don’t you risk spreading that misconception to others? What if scum uses it as a way to plant town seeds on their members?

I'm reluctant to be too town-heavy on anyone early game but there can be clear benefits to at least starting to form townreads early on - sure, it's inevitable we'll sometimes get it wrong and regard someone who's scum as town but that can sometimes lead scum into making errors too, sometimes they pocket a bit too strongly, sometimes they hesitate to jump on a town wagon that's good from their POV because it seems too opportunistic. Early game is about pressing and prodding and seeing where it goes for me, and I say that as someone who's not particularly good at it.

[MalcolmTucker]

Nightmare scenario would be geraintm/crscent/malcom

This gets a vote
VOTE: galron

I don't particularly like that post either. It feels like it's intending to be solvey by putting a sort of grand, almost conspiratorial idea out there but it's also not saying much at the same time. I feel like I have a tendency to scumread Galron a lot early game though - maybe a style thing, but will keep an eye on their play.

[MalcolmTucker]

Nightmare scenario would be geraintm/crscent/malcom

This gets a vote
VOTE: galron

I don't particularly like that post either. It feels like it's intending to be solvey by putting a sort of grand, almost conspiratorial idea out there but it's also not saying much at the same time. I feel like I have a tendency to scumread Galron a lot early game though - maybe a style thing, but will keep an eye on their play.

Nah, it was a good post. If scum was me and Crescent and A N Other I think we would walk this game.

But you brown nosing my vote....VOTE: malcolm tucker

Don't understand your vote here, I like

Malcolm

's pov though...

i realise now i am not sure if Malcolm Tucker was saying "I don't like this post" about mine or Galron. when i first posted, i thought they were agreeing with me that Galron's was a poor post. I'm not so sure they meant that now.

so i voted Malcolm because i thought they were apparently joining me in saying Galron's post was poor.

I was saying I didn't particularly like Galron's post, you are correct there.

Sure, it'd be a nightmare scenario if the three of us were all scum together, but it seems very unlikely from early posting - certainly I feel like the way you/Crescent have played so far means you are unlikely to be aligned. "We should be careful of this player," without an actual scumread could hint at alignment but I don't think you'd be urging for a proper check if Crescent was a teammate.

I think you're town though. Your vote for me is misguided but it shows you're not just wanting to necessarily get town players onside when they're agreeing with you (or when they think they are at least).

[MalcolmTucker]

Porkens is probably town based on their posting so far. I can see scum occasionally opting for an "I'm clueless" type approach but they'd be overdoing it if scum here.

[MalcolmTucker]

I don’t know if it’s all that great. What if you are town reading scum, don’t you risk spreading that misconception to others? What if scum uses it as a way to plant town seeds on their members?

You are not a newbie, as far as I can tell, why do you keep asking questions about typical mechanics of the game?

You choose to enter the thread saying this?
Have anything else to add?
Rather then trying to pick on Porkens like that and not even in a good way.

Slight scumlean on Drapion for this and the posts which followed afterwards. This is a bit of a reach. I think it's perfectly valid when trying to suss out other players to ask/question why someone who's been on the site for a long time didn't appear to be clear about game mechanics as such. Porkens' reply was fine but it's useful info for us to have.

[MalcolmTucker]

Porkens is probably town based on their posting so far. I can see scum occasionally opting for an "I'm clueless" type approach but they'd be overdoing it if scum here.

If

Professor

flips scum then it'll clear

Porkens

imo, but if

Professor

is town and

Porkens

will continue to play like this then I think it’s not impossible to play dumb townie as scum for them.

Agreed it's possible but very much feel like they would be overdoing it. I've seen slots like that eliminated early on as a compromise when the town has been struggling to agree on a defined target. But still unlikely for me.

The one bit I do worry about is the "I'm just going to try and not get miseliminated", I'll expect scum hunting at some point from Porkens once we have more info otherwise that could be construed as coasting.

[MalcolmTucker]

I don’t really have one. I’m going to try and not get miseliminated. That’s really my only goal. Although I know that can’t win the game by itself, it’s my goal for the first couple days, at which point I hope to have gotten some idea who is scum er not.

The forthrightness is part of what made me trust you. It would help us all if you transition into taking stances on the current game.

NJAC's snippy, reactive posting style is one I tend to scumread early. I had a bad vibe from his post 7, where, in my gentle mind, he could have just voted Crescent for his rvs vote instead of double-posting a jab at Cres without follow-up. So I wanted to wait and see if he always posts in curt, questioning jabs. He does!! While it's easier to fake quick conversations where the posts are a minute apart (posts 86-90 with Pork) when it's about non-game-related topics, I like NJAC's tone towards Pork.

It's non-accusatory and doesn't resemble him angling for a vote switch onto Pork.

Agreed, and as I've pointed out the info gained was actually helpful and useful too.

[MalcolmTucker]

Early TR on Shiidaji too. Liking their approach.

[MalcolmTucker]

Alright, who has yet to wolf read the almighty Townie Drapion?

Let me sit nice in the PoE as I bring down wolves into it and get them out.

Don't like these posts. Feels like it's just an attempt to shade the scumreads being made without actually really refuting them at all, instead the goal appears to be an attempt to link together players who suspect Drapion as possible scum.

[MalcolmTucker]

Alright, who has yet to wolf read the almighty Townie Drapion?

Let me sit nice in the PoE as I bring down wolves into it and get them out.

Don't like these posts. Feels like it's just an attempt to shade the scumreads being made without actually really refuting them at all, instead the goal appears to be an attempt to link together players who suspect Drapion as possible scum.

I think mainly everyone wolf reads me?
Just trying to say I don’t really care about it tbh.

I'm not sure everyone does scumread you, though? A few of us do and in some cases it's relatively tentative early game scumreads or scumleans which could change. I don't see any particularly vocal defenders as such so far but I wouldn't say you're a consensus vote. I don't know, you're obviously not wanting to seem overly worked up about the votes in some posts but in others I get the impression you very much do care about being suspected at the same time, hence the posts I highlighted.

[MalcolmTucker]

Yeah very strong town vibes from Ger so far.

[MalcolmTucker]

Not quite at a full scumread as such but I'd like to see a bit more from Wayward Son. Feel like they're very much skirting around the edges/quite hedgy so far. I get feeling your way into a game early on can be difficult (I've often been in the same boat) but their posts so far feel like they could very much conceivably come from scum lying relatively low and not wanting to cause a stir.

[MalcolmTucker]

Alright, who has yet to wolf read the almighty Townie Drapion?

Let me sit nice in the PoE as I bring down wolves into it and get them out.

Don't like these posts. Feels like it's just an attempt to shade the scumreads being made without actually really refuting them at all, instead the goal appears to be an attempt to link together players who suspect Drapion as possible scum.

I think mainly everyone wolf reads me?
Just trying to say I don’t really care about it tbh.

I must admit, I was thinking you might be a wolf.

@ Crescent In Normal 240, post 150, you said Geraintm couldn't last the whole game as scum. He made it though. Any advice gleaned from that game on how to read him would be great.

If Drapion isn't scum for example, then this could very much be opportunistic scum angling to get on a potentially viable wagon. Wayward Son certainly positioning a possible vote going forward here.

Nevertheless, the second part of the post I kind of like - pretty basic but reasonable and understandable info for town to want.

[MalcolmTucker]

Alright, who has yet to wolf read the almighty Townie Drapion?

Let me sit nice in the PoE as I bring down wolves into it and get them out.

Don't like these posts. Feels like it's just an attempt to shade the scumreads being made without actually really refuting them at all, instead the goal appears to be an attempt to link together players who suspect Drapion as possible scum.

I think mainly everyone wolf reads me?
Just trying to say I don’t really care about it tbh.

I must admit, I was thinking you might be a wolf.

@ Crescent In Normal 240, post 150, you said Geraintm couldn't last the whole game as scum. He made it though. Any advice gleaned from that game on how to read him would be great.

I had him almost dead to rights on day 7 because he has very similar behavior when playing scum from behind across his games and I was bombarding him.

The problem was that FK was so insanely anti-town in everything he did that he replaced a virtual townlock of mine and still managed to effectively claim.scum to me. No excuse for any town to play as horrendously as FK did. It culminated in FK immediately attacking me (his townlock) after Enchant said it might be FK.

Gera didn't do a damn thing the last 4 days of that game. Pretty similar to the end of 2273. He doesn't last until the end.

Back to work

I think Ger is town here but I'd be wary of being too dependent on meta all the same. If you've had a scum game with Ger recently and you're somehow in identical town/scum roles here then I'd imagine Ger would be ultra-aware of that and would potentially alter their playing style as a result. Meta is useful but I feel it can have limitations in situations like this when you're dealing with a good player like Ger.

[MalcolmTucker]

On the one hand I'm not sure PD's current behaviour is exactly conductive to a scum approach - quite confrontational and not exactly easing the town's scumreads of them. I'd argue scum in this situation is more likely to be receptive to why town is scumreading them because they want to come across as reasonable and cooperative - plenty of townies get miseliminated because they dig down out of frustration when suspected and increasingly annoy the people scumreading them.

But on the other hand it could be this is just PD's natural style and they're not going to modify it in spite of getting scumread.

None of their responses in recent pages have been great. The idea "everyone" scumreads them is designed to make it look like we're all on the wrong tracks and this is too easy an elimination to be scum. But not everyone necessarily does think PD is scum and they themselves had to revise their statement to say it was everyone who had given reads, and I'm not even sure that's necessarily true anyway.

Their play indicates scum to me but it's not a subtle playstyle which gives me pause. I'd currently pick PD for elimination if it was final day but don't believe we should rush this through either.

[MalcolmTucker]

@salsa

I random voted someone

Malcolm comes in shortly after, not realising it was random, and start going "good point, I too found them sus"

Buddying up like that I don't like

The fact I didn't realise it was random is why I thought it was a good point - I didn't like the post from Galron and was simply agreeing with you.

[MalcolmTucker]

Kitty is another player who like Wayward Son I'd like to see more from going forward and if PD isn't scum they're a candidate for a possible opportunistic vote. Relatively quiet so far and PD is a relatively obvious target at the moment where the reasoning sort of presents itself.

[MalcolmTucker]

I have a tinfoil theory.

It's Professor and Porkens. (Assuming scum) Professor took a lot of time to defend Porkens. Porkens' "gut" vote on me is an attempt to start a different wagon.

It may be thin, but I see it.
VOTE: ProfessorDrapion

Something a bit weird about this post for me. For one - I'm not sure how it's necessarily a "tinfoil theory", the logic seems relatively simple, probably too simple, to the point where if PD is scum I think it's more likely Porkens is probably town - in that case PD would either be trying to pocket or would be going for a relatively easy TR to simply look more town. An added bonus for PD if they flip scum is there's a small chance we do turn on Porkens due to PD's defence of them.

But I don't really see the logic wherein this is being done to take the heat away from PD - if scum were going to try to start a genuine bandwagon on you then they'd probably put a bit more effort in to convince other players rather than simply going off gut. This reads a bit to me like you're potentially wanting to expand your pool of scumreads beyond PD because you're aware PD is perhaps too easy a target at the moment if the slot gets eliminated and does come back town.

[MalcolmTucker]

@ Malcolm I made that post after doing a dual ISO of Professor and Porkens. What makes you think Porkens can be Town? I'm not seeing anything.

Kitty is another player who like Wayward Son I'd like to see more from going forward and if PD isn't scum they're a candidate for a possible opportunistic vote. Relatively quiet so far and PD is a relatively obvious target at the moment where the reasoning sort of presents itself.

Personally I don't like these kinds of posts. You want to hear

more

from me? Do you have any questions?

@ Malcolm I get the feeling you know I'm wrong on PD, and are throwing shade at the wagon while slightly supporting it. Town read sliding south.

I'm not sure scum comes in and loudly advertises how hopeless they are so early on to be honest. Scum want to blend in typically and Porkens' approach doesn't indicate seamlessly blending in. If they have doubts as to the game and how they should approach things they have a scum thread where they can ask those questions. That they're not indicates they're probably thinking out loud to me. As a result your PD/Porkens solve felt a bit lazy to me, like you felt you needed to have reads beyond PD.

You've posted more now, fine, I was comparing Kitty to my initial read of you where neither player is overtly scummy but you're ISO reads like it could easily be early game cautious mafia trying to blend in without necessarily saying anything controversial.

I'm not trying to throw shade on you or necessarily move away from PD - I've said I think PD's play has been slightly scummy so far, it's just whether that play is actually coming from someone who is scum or if it is coming from someone who's just frustrated. My goal here is to think - would this player approach the game in this way if they were scum? I'm unsure that's the case with PD which is where my doubt is coming from, because their actual content so far has definitely been scummy, hence the initial read.

[MalcolmTucker]

Question to everyone, I see Porkens talking about how bad he is and throwing shade at the idea of Town blocs. His only game relevant post is his "gut" vote. Is it only Professor's defense of him that makes him Town?

“HAY EVERYONE LOOK AT THIS OTHER PERSON PLEASE”

I want to know a bit more about your read on Wayward beyond the gut-read itself. It's fine to go on gut initially but as someone who suspects Wayward, if I'm potentially wagoning there I want to be confident the other players on the wagon are doing so for legit reasons. Otherwise I'd fear you could be scum just sitting on what you think is a viable elimination without coming up with a justification for doing so. What particularly makes Wayward scummy to you?

[MalcolmTucker]

Erratic or unreliable scum partners do exist but I'm not sure what the benefit of looking so clueless and uncertain from a scum POV on D1 is here. I don't think it's a particularly strong argument for scum Porkens at the moment.

[MalcolmTucker]

@salsa

I random voted someone

Malcolm comes in shortly after, not realising it was random, and start going "good point, I too found them sus"

Buddying up like that I don't like

The fact I didn't realise it was random is why I thought it was a good point - I didn't like the post from Galron and was simply agreeing with you.

yeah, i aint chaning my opinion of you.

i think your joining me reeks

and framing it like this doesn't put you in any better light.
VOTE: malcolm

I was agreeing with you several posts in during an early phase of the game? It's hardly as if I was exhibiting a consistent pattern of pocketing or attempting to dodge existing suspicion on me by getting you onside. I feel like you've become hyperfocused on one particular post you didn't like and you're now building a scumcase around that.

[MalcolmTucker]

The fact I didn't realise it was random is why I thought it was a good point - I didn't like the post from Galron and was simply agreeing with you.

I know I touched on this earlier with Geraint, and in the one post where I misunderstood your point. What is wrong with expressing a nightmare scenario? You say you don't like it, can you express why?

i can't see a problem either, and i confess the team listed would be hard for town to beat.

I didn't like it because it felt like the sort of easy throwaway post scum can make that looks insightful at an initial glance but isn't actually saying anything at all of note. "X combo would be hard to beat," sort of expresses an opinion and a view but it's not actually saying anything on the existing gamestate when Galron presumably didn't believe that to be the likely scum combo. And as a result it was an early post that caught my interest.

[MalcolmTucker]

Do you think Galron clears Wayward upon wolf flip?
That would be handy.
Thoughts?

wo is this aimed at?
what is a wolf flip?

Werewolf is a variant of mafia so it's basically saying scum flip.

[MalcolmTucker]

Ok 2 1/2 days left and that war is finally over so my brain can start working ago. Votals don't feel like they've changed much. I noticed Shidaji moved onto Galron.

I then noticed Galron has... Exactly one post in the last 2 1/2 days, and it's questionable.

Oh yeah I'm here just haven't felt like playing.

UNVOTE: wayward was rvs. Probably voting Drap or maybe

Malcom

today.

Yeah but.. Why? Malcolm almost never appears in your ISO before this post, except for in #47 and #64, which aren't in any way calling him scum. It kind feels like you've played this game in "neutral".

There actually is

one thing that kinda does stick out to me a bit concerning Malcolm in comparison to the other game I played with him

, but I'm not going to feed you an answer soo~

Anyways I'll glance over the rest of the posts now.

Is this anything I can help with? I believe this is only our second game together but I'd argue my last game might be about the weakest I played on the site in terms of effort - I just couldn't find my way into the game at all and it showed based on my play. Not that I'm usually some 4D chessmaster who puts in brilliant contributions but I'd say I'm more focused and engaged this game and have more focused reads.

[MalcolmTucker]

Also I just remembered the last time I saw someone voice suspicion of scum Gera day 1 they immediately got shot sooo....

Based on my experience with Gera, the way he has been loosely pushing on Malcolm for most of the day as the only vote on him feels like something that is more likely to come from his scum game. He's also voted the guy twice without even unvoting between those votes, which puts on full display just how long he's truly been at it. Heals hasn't contributed much outside of it.

This goes double if Galron or Wayward is scum, and it goes triple if Malcolm is town on top of that.

Scum Gera's favorite place is be is on a splinter vote that shows no signs of going anywhere, where he can nestle himself away and avoid the trains that actually matter. I called him out on this in 240 when I was zoning in on him, too.

I TR'd Gera very early on and I felt my logic was solid in doing so but I'm increasingly baffled by the nature of their push on me - they seem to be completely sold on the idea of me as scum on the basis of one post where I believed I was agreeing with what they were saying. Gera's issue appears to be that I agreed with them at all but are they really suggesting anyone who agreed with their early game-reads or with what they were saying is scum? Surely not.

I get it as an early gut-vibe type read, but the consistency with which one post by me has been used for the basis of a relentless push for elimination, especially when that push is going nowhere, is a bit odd. And if Gera isn't perhaps too confident about looking elsewhere I can see a world where as scum they'd hone in on a player unlikely to get voted out at the moment to at least look like they're giving committed and dedicated reads.

[MalcolmTucker]

Also I just remembered the last time I saw someone voice suspicion of scum Gera day 1 they immediately got shot sooo....

Based on my experience with Gera, the way he has been loosely pushing on Malcolm for most of the day as the only vote on him feels like something that is more likely to come from his scum game. He's also voted the guy twice without even unvoting between those votes, which puts on full display just how long he's truly been at it. Heals hasn't contributed much outside of it.

This goes double if Galron or Wayward is scum, and it goes triple if Malcolm is town on top of that.

Scum Gera's favorite place is be is on a splinter vote that shows no signs of going anywhere, where he can nestle himself away and avoid the trains that actually matter. I called him out on this in 240 when I was zoning in on him, too.

have you played a game with me when i am not scum? what are my early game voting patterns like in those? i'd hazard they are awfully similar.
it is mid game where my scum votes come to the fore, not now

For what it's worth we've only played twice together and the first time round you were basically not wanting to participate D1 because you found it a bit useless. I can't remember much about last time albeit you were definitely a bit more engaged. Tonally I don't think you particularly stand out either way - your early posts were screaming townie but your continued push on me for the simple crime of (I thought at the time) agreeing with you is really odd.

[MalcolmTucker]

@geraintm I think your case on Malcolm is going nowhere, who else are you considering to vote?

does it matter if you dont think anyone else is going to join me?

It surely matters if you're going to sit on a wagon nobody else is interested in pursuing to make it look like a committed town read because as Crescent has suggested it's a way for scum to avoid having to make miseliminations. If your read on me was solid I'd at least understand it but your scumread is quite frankly not very good and I think it's right for other players to begin to wonder what angle you're pursuing it from if you have little interest in eliminating anyone else.

[MalcolmTucker]

Why Malcolm? I find them townie tbh.

Just that little spat we had. After reading their ISO, I doubt they're scum.

This caught my eye as a bit of an odd post - I believe Wayward TR'd me early on, they then hint I could be scum, but quickly back away from the possibility once they're asked to provide reasoning for it.

[MalcolmTucker]

Galron is an odd one - I don't think they've contributed much so far and their reasoning when they have made reads has been pretty poor or meh, but by the same token I feel like Galron's posting can generally be quite sparse and hard to read in a way which can make them an easy target for miselimination. I'm sort of undecided there at the moment.

[MalcolmTucker]

I do TR everyone on the Galron wagon though which makes me think it's less likely that said wagon is being scum-driven for the aforementioned possible miselimination.

[MalcolmTucker]

Oh yeah I'm here just haven't felt like playing.

UNVOTE: wayward was rvs. Probably voting Drap or maybe Malcom today.

Why Malcolm?

I'm not really seeing a process there. And there's a whole lot of "well you seem like you could be town or scum" and that doesn't really sit well. There was a post or two wrt geraintm where he had expressed a hard town read and then rolled it back the more he got into the post.

I've said openly I had an initial strong TR on Gera based on how they were playing but their continual weak push on me has increasingly been leading me to revise that TR. It's D1, I think that's fair, I've had a process behind both my reasons for TR'ing and doubting the slot.

[MalcolmTucker]

Ok 2 1/2 days left and that war is finally over so my brain can start working ago. Votals don't feel like they've changed much. I noticed Shidaji moved onto Galron.

I then noticed Galron has... Exactly one post in the last 2 1/2 days, and it's questionable.

Oh yeah I'm here just haven't felt like playing.

UNVOTE: wayward was rvs. Probably voting Drap or maybe

Malcom

today.

Yeah but.. Why? Malcolm almost never appears in your ISO before this post, except for in #47 and #64, which aren't in any way calling him scum. It kind feels like you've played this game in "neutral".

There actually is

one thing that kinda does stick out to me a bit concerning Malcolm in comparison to the other game I played with him

, but I'm not going to feed you an answer soo~

Anyways I'll glance over the rest of the posts now.

Is this anything I can help with? I believe this is only our second game together but I'd argue my last game might be about the weakest I played on the site in terms of effort - I just couldn't find my way into the game at all and it showed based on my play. Not that I'm usually some 4D chessmaster who puts in brilliant contributions but I'd say I'm more focused and engaged this game and have more focused reads.

Interesting.

'Cause it's exactly that: Your level of investment this game is markedly higher than that game. It's been sticking out to me for a little while now.

If you read back some of my other previous games (both as town and scum) this tends to be the case. I'm rarely the most active player as such but generally try to put in a solid amount of effort.

[MalcolmTucker]

Then 334 comes, and... This question doesn't seem to flow properly at all. He's calling Drapion and Porkens scum together, and he's already more or less doubled down on Porkens. The question is phrased as to have no good answer. Why would Drapion defending him make him town in the first place? This is made even more awkward by the fact that he's also openly claiming to scumread Drapion.

I think it's a good question. Am I to understand you Town lean Porkens? Why?

Porkens is directly reminding me of Goldfish, who was so flagrantly useless as town in 2273 that I actually pegged her as town because I didn't think scum would allow her to continue to be so useless. The feeling I have here isn't as strong as the feeling I had on her, but I also can't remember the last time I saw scum frontload their game with the ridiculous barrage of excuses that Porkens already has. I feel he needs time for further observation. I fully intend to keep needling at him.

And it's not a good question. Drapion defending Porkens early on shouldn't have any influence of whether someone town reads or scum reads Porkens now. The fact that you're calling them scum together already means you can attack almost any potential answer to the question, hence it having no "good" answer.

This is a pretty good summary of where I'm at with Porkens as well. I think scum would typically be a bit more self-conscious about having poorly constructed or bad reads and would work to improve them a bit.

I'm also not too worried about Porkens right now because I feel like if they're scum they won't be able to continue with this approach throughout the entire game and sway town onto their side. I think it's a slot that inevitably sorts itself with time.

[MalcolmTucker]

This caught my eye as a bit of an odd post - I believe Wayward TR'd me early on, they then hint I could be scum, but quickly back away from the possibility once they're asked to provide reasoning for it.

Beside that "spat", what should I be reading you scum from? Our earlier misunderstanding? No. I'm thinking you're Town.

Why did that spat make me look scummy at all though?

[MalcolmTucker]

Oh yeah I'm here just haven't felt like playing.

UNVOTE: wayward was rvs. Probably voting Drap or maybe Malcom today.

Why Malcolm?

I'm not really seeing a process there. And there's a whole lot of "well you seem like you could be town or scum" and that doesn't really sit well. There was a post or two wrt geraintm where he had expressed a hard town read and then rolled it back the more he got into the post.

That's kinda how Malcolm plays as town. A bit wishy-washy.

I feel like Galron's played with me often enough as well to know my approach here is fairly consistent with my town-game too.

[MalcolmTucker]

Also I just remembered the last time I saw someone voice suspicion of scum Gera day 1 they immediately got shot sooo....

Based on my experience with Gera, the way he has been loosely pushing on Malcolm for most of the day as the only vote on him feels like something that is more likely to come from his scum game. He's also voted the guy twice without even unvoting between those votes, which puts on full display just how long he's truly been at it. Heals hasn't contributed much outside of it.

This goes double if Galron or Wayward is scum, and it goes triple if Malcolm is town on top of that.

Scum Gera's favorite place is be is on a splinter vote that shows no signs of going anywhere, where he can nestle himself away and avoid the trains that actually matter. I called him out on this in 240 when I was zoning in on him, too.

I TR'd Gera very early on and I felt my logic was solid in doing so but I'm increasingly baffled by the nature of their push on me - they seem to be completely sold on the idea of me as scum on the basis of one post where I believed I was agreeing with what they were saying. Gera's issue appears to be that I agreed with them at all but are they really suggesting anyone who agreed with their early game-reads or with what they were saying is scum? Surely not.

I get it as an early gut-vibe type read, but the consistency with which one post by me has been used for the basis of a relentless push for elimination, especially when that push is going nowhere, is a bit odd. And if Gera isn't perhaps too confident about looking elsewhere I can see a world where as scum they'd hone in on a player unlikely to get voted out at the moment to at least look like they're giving committed and dedicated reads.

I'm thinking if scum!

geraintm

make it so obvious at this point.... Like if you flip green, they'll be the obvious target for elimination. There was one game with them where town!them continuously scumread town!me, so I'm not sure if they're scum here yet.

Agreed. Much as it's frustrating their unwillingness to move onto a more viable elimination because they don't mind a D1 no-elimination is also consistent with town Gera from past play.

[MalcolmTucker]

I am amused that people are assigning scum motivation to all my actions.

On day 1. Which I 99% think is useless. You arenjust lucky I didn't do "vote longest wagon" plan.
But I guess identifying people trying to push me out today will be useful later.

This is again actually consistent with town Gera I've seen before, even though it initially reads quite anti-town, but I shall point out Gera is doing the exact same thing with me!

[MalcolmTucker]

I don’t oppose to a Galron execution but I don’t think he’s a hit.
As I said I think there is wolf agenda in thread and Wayward can easily possess that with their partner.
Even if they are town, they are not seeing the wolf agenda and

for some reason think the thread is being town lead

which I quite honestly do not see.

Is that potentially a bit of a slip perhaps? There's only a handful of people who, after all, can definitively know whether town are dominating the thread or not.

[MalcolmTucker]

Then 334 comes, and... This question doesn't seem to flow properly at all. He's calling Drapion and Porkens scum together, and he's already more or less doubled down on Porkens. The question is phrased as to have no good answer. Why would Drapion defending him make him town in the first place? This is made even more awkward by the fact that he's also openly claiming to scumread Drapion.

I think it's a good question. Am I to understand you Town lean Porkens? Why?

Porkens is directly reminding me of Goldfish, who was so flagrantly useless as town in 2273 that I actually pegged her as town because I didn't think scum would allow her to continue to be so useless. The feeling I have here isn't as strong as the feeling I had on her, but I also can't remember the last time I saw scum frontload their game with the ridiculous barrage of excuses that Porkens already has. I feel he needs time for further observation. I fully intend to keep needling at him.

And it's not a good question. Drapion defending Porkens early on shouldn't have any influence of whether someone town reads or scum reads Porkens now. The fact that you're calling them scum together already means you can attack almost any potential answer to the question, hence it having no "good" answer.

This is a pretty good summary of where I'm at with Porkens as well. I think scum would typically be a bit more self-conscious about having poorly constructed or bad reads and would work to improve them a bit.

I'm also not too worried about Porkens right now because I feel like if they're scum they won't be able to continue with this approach throughout the entire game and sway town onto their side. I think it's a slot that inevitably sorts itself with time.

Hmm... if

Porkens

(and maybe

Kitty

) are really towns then I'm very wrong with my townreads [

Professor

is still in question but their alignment can also be solved later like

Porkens

]....

Wayward

is my least confident townread and

Galron

is my strongest scumread atm. If I have to compromise in D1, I can compromise with

Wayward

.
What is your read on

Galron

? Iirc, you didn't commit there? Also want to know about your

Wayward

stance.... you don't vote either.

I said before I was not too confident on Galron necessarily being town - they certainly haven't done anything I find particularly townie yet, but I feel like Galron's playstyle in general can be hard to read since their contributions can be relatively sparse and not overly detailed.

But I think I'm leaning more scum as time goes on. I don't think the wagon on them so far is overly suspect, and I think their reasoning for me possibly being mafia is really weak - Galron will have seen me play pretty much identically to this in the past as town. I'm at a point where I'd not be opposed to voting there if we want a consensus candidate.

[MalcolmTucker]

The previous post sums up exactly why I'm not against voting Porkens. Barring a full-on town confirmation. players like him almost always get voted off eventually. It's a matter of when, not if.

But here's a fun fact: Galron really has arguably done even

less

than Porkens has, he just hasn't been as obvious about it. He has given exactly one reason to suspect Drapion (#179), said he's voting him or Malcolm is #384, and given exactly one reason to suspect Malcolm (#472). That's... Really it.

Porkers may be doing next to nothing, but his approach to Wayward, as much as I had to pull teeth to get him to actually elaborate on anything, is more than we've gotten out of Galron. Porkens is failing, but Galron feels like he's totally lurking from commitment.

I feel like we have circled around this train while discussing trains to oppose it, while most people seem to agree everyone voting him is town, while the player the train is on hasn't given us any reason to look away him. I have yet to see anything that resembles true, game-solving thought process, and he's the lowest poster in the entire game, who has done effectively nothing since September 13th.

This may be a bit of a reach but if Galron is scum, and Gera is perhaps a teammate, could this maybe explain Gera's sudden scumread on me when I agreed with them?

Gera throws a casual, jokey vote at a teammate which may have the added effect of some scum distancing, but then begins to panic a bit once they realise their vote could be construed as being a serious push? Having TR'd Gera early on there's just been something really off about their sudden push since then for someone who admits they typically don't see much value in D1.

Gera doesn't believe they should be suspected because it's D1 and it's impossible to sort them confidently at this stage, but has also seemingly confidently sorted me as scum, thereby defying their own logic.

[MalcolmTucker]

I've seen Gera do this no elimination on D1 thing before but my issue at the moment is they weren't particularly bothered about it early on and appeared to be genuinely scumhunting, whereas now they seriously want to avoid us voting while we look to consolidate on Galron's wagon.

Given the short period of time we have left I think I'm content vote here. But town should obviously be careful as we'll be approaching hammer soon, think my vote is the 4th.

VOTE: Galron

[MalcolmTucker]

Yeah I'm not real sure what trap geraintm was trying to set but he seems to have had something in mind.

anyone who decided to pipe up after my vote on you and said they found you sus, well, i just have that down as weird sucking up and i dont like it. not one bit

Like this is really odd. Why is anyone who thinks Galron is scum after Gera votes for Galron therefore scummy? Especially when Gera otherwise believes it's hard to sort players on D1. The logic just isn't consistent.

[MalcolmTucker]

I've seen Gera do this no elimination on D1 thing before but my issue at the moment is they weren't particularly bothered about it early on and appeared to be genuinely scumhunting, whereas now they seriously want to avoid us voting while we look to consolidate on Galron's wagon.

Given the short period of time we have left I think I'm content vote here. But town should obviously be careful as we'll be approaching hammer soon, think my vote is the 4th.

VOTE: Galron

It could also be that they just really want you execution.

It could be and I believe Gera has approached the game this way as town before (certainly the no lim D1 thing has come from them as town), but their logic and read on me feels inconsistent and forced, and it came directly in response to me disliking Galron's post early on.

[MalcolmTucker]

I've seen Gera do this no elimination on D1 thing before but my issue at the moment is they weren't particularly bothered about it early on and appeared to be genuinely scumhunting, whereas now they seriously want to avoid us voting while we look to consolidate on Galron's wagon.

Given the short period of time we have left I think I'm content vote here. But town should obviously be careful as we'll be approaching hammer soon, think my vote is the 4th.

VOTE: Galron

i dont think you should consolodate on galron, i think it is going to end in a green flip.
i also think any sudden swing to another wagon right now is going to flail to another green flip.

it is kinda like i think any elimination today is just going to end up with us one down

Again, weird post, town is uninformed, there's only one alignment that can particularly confidently say this. There are multiple scum in the game, our job is to identify them.

[MalcolmTucker]

I think Crescent's case on Gera is solid. Their contradictions here do not make sense as town. Moving my vote before going to sleep.

VOTE: Geraintm

[MalcolmTucker]

Gera is always anti-town day 1 even if they're not scum.

I've pointed this out myself but it doesn't stop them from ultimately being scum.

[MalcolmTucker]

My view on Wayward is still similar to before - I don't think they've done much to convince me they're town.

I think Crescent is likely town here but I think the idea of Wayward/Crescent as a team is interesting and the theory itself probably comes from town and indicates efforts to solve outside the box.

Wayward's most recent post feels a bit more town though? I know scum might not flail but when they hit E-1 you'd expect a claim of some sort surely, especially at this point in the game. Makes sense to fight.

[MalcolmTucker]

Hey, I'm cool being launched. Hopefully I help (later) launching scum.

My claim is Town. That's ALL you get.

Maybe see some of you in the dead thread later. I'll be there.

If you are a PR and die while claiming "town" I will be very sad.

I don't see why Wayward wouldn't admit to their role if they're PR here? Likely they are either just vanilla town or scum.

[MalcolmTucker]

I strongly believe ger is town.

I strongly believe ger is town.

And I strongly believe the opposite.

If you think he's town, make an actual counterargument.

This is quickly reminding me of 2273 where I am one of the only people actually making an argument.

Read ger’s first post.

I think Crescent's case on Gera is solid. Their contradictions here do not make sense as town. Moving my vote before going to sleep.

VOTE: Geraintm

That’s a scummy fucking vote.

Not to say their can't be scum trying to manipulate the gamestate but my personal feeling is a lot of the moving around on forming and consolidating wagons has probably been coming from town to a degree - the thought processes feel organic and reasonable if not correct. Crescent's case on Gera is strong and I like it. I think Salsa's reaching with the Wayward/Crescent solve together but it's interesting and shows independent thought.

In situations like these I feel scum are often reluctant to move around if their teammate is in trouble or if it's all townies up for the chop - and Porkens' posts while the rest of us were changing our votes ping me as possible scum.

For one Porkens' tone is suddenly a lot more forceful here, it's like they're suddenly a lot more confident in their opinion. Suddenly my vote is scummy and there's no way Ger can be scum. That's out of tune with the player we saw from earlier in the game, and notably Porkens doesn't move their vote at all here. They sit on the earlier Wayward vote.

While a team of Porkens/Ger with a strong defence is possible I worry from these posts Porkens is scum slipping that they know too much and wanting town-cred if Ger doesn't come back scum.

I've TR'd Porkens till now but these posts really ping me as possible scum - probably too late for us to change wagons now but we should keep a close eye on Porkens tomorrow for me.

[MalcolmTucker]

*there, fs

[MalcolmTucker]

I agree a Porkens flip is unlikely today and so I'm happy to remain on one of the prime elimination candidates at the moment - just that Porkens has very much gone down in my mind from the TR I had before.

[MalcolmTucker]

If you are a PR and die while claiming "town" I will be very sad.

We'll see. I kinda, sorta think you're Town.

Are you hunting at something here or are you vanilla town?

[MalcolmTucker]

*hinting at something

[MalcolmTucker]

I thought scum would've been too self-conscious to admit to not knowing where to place their reads (given the join date not being recent) but I guess Porkens could just be trying to play a natural game.

[MalcolmTucker]

In fact, know what - going to try this wagon and see if anyone is interested. Happy to go back to someone else if it doesn't go anywhere.

VOTE: Porkens

[MalcolmTucker]

So, that was a lot of posts overnight.

Much of it feels like flailing.

Today isn't going to end in a red flip anyways.

I cannot be bothered to spend time against crescent-shaped case against me. One, Sunday so have less time. And two, arguing I am town against them when they are this sure is pointless, they will Bury me with walls of text that I cannot beat, because all I can do is say I'm town.

I confess, this is the oddest I've seen them play. They never stick their next out like this

Again posts like these almost feel like a scum-flip - there are 11 players in the game, if Gera is town they know there's still a chance of hitting scum. The only way someone can confidently say this is if they are informed and know for a fact we're not hitting scum.

I am again aware Gera's meta can be like this but I'm still reluctant to just let posts which read like blatant scum-slips pass so easily.

[MalcolmTucker]

Wayward's posts feel town to me at the moment.

They've not gone in with a big impassioned, fighting plea you'd perhaps expect from desperate scum.

By the same token they're not lying low as scum sometimes do when they're caught and on the verge of elimination to limit any further damage to teammates.

I don't really see the motivation for Wayward's current play as scum despite leaning scum on their slot early on.

[MalcolmTucker]

Seems nobody is interested in Porkens this turn so I'll move back.

VOTE: Geraintm

[MalcolmTucker]

I don't know how to win. I say that I think day 1s are useless because they are more elikely than not to end in a town flip, and people say doesn't matter, a town flip is better than no flip.

So I say I think the wagon is going to end up on town, and I get called as scum because only a scum will know that.

I don't know that, yes town has caught scum day 1, just the odds are just not worth it, but I strongly believe day 1 flips will be of town.

What do people want me to say?
You all want me to change my opinion just to confirm?

That's not why I think what you're saying is scummy. It's the fact you seem to think the wagon will be town no matter what - this is something none of us can know unless we are informed. Town is not informed. Scum is. So long as there are more town than scum you're often going to have a better chance of hitting town than scum early on, sometimes it needs to be done because it gives you info for down the line and it shows where players positioned themselves in various wagons. I get you disagree on this part but my issue beyond that is you didn't seem to be particularly strongly advocating no elimination early in D1, despite your apparent uncertainty you are scumreading me with conviction on the basis of one post where I agreed with you. This is contradictory and again I don't see why such contradictions should be perceived as town.

[MalcolmTucker]

I don't know how to win. I say that I think day 1s are useless because they are more elikely than not to end in a town flip, and people say doesn't matter, a town flip is better than no flip.

So I say I think the wagon is going to end up on town, and I get called as scum because only a scum will know that.

I don't know that, yes town has caught scum day 1, just the odds are just not worth it, but I strongly believe day 1 flips will be of town.

What do people want me to say?r
You all want me to change my opinion just to confirm?

I'd rather hear you give, even a simple case, on why any of your reads are scum. That is what might change my mind.

I know, I'm still up. My dog's fault.

Again Ger's main scumread is me, solely on the basis of one post where I thought I was agreeing with them. Since forming this one read early on they've increasingly avoided doing any scumhunting, instead reverting to not wanting an elimination because their own preferred choice isn't going to be eliminated. This is fundamentally anti-town and filled with contradictions.

[MalcolmTucker]

Wayward's drunk posting is a lot of AtE. It's hard to town read that.

It wasn't really that emotive though, was it? Seemed pretty calm about going out and posts since then haven't reeked of desperation at all.

[MalcolmTucker]

In fact, know what - going to try this wagon and see if anyone is interested. Happy to go back to someone else if it doesn't go anywhere.

VOTE: Porkens

Seems nobody is interested in Porkens this turn so I'll move back.

VOTE: Geraintm

What did you expect to happen in two hours and on the last day of the phase?

It's D1 in an 11-player game. One or two more votes and suddenly it's a viable elimination. Tried to gauge if anyone would be interested. Again, if nothing else, would have been useful info.

[MalcolmTucker]

When exactly is the deadline? I increasingly think Wayward is town but we do need to vote somewhere because no lim would be bad.

[MalcolmTucker]

Votecount 1.11

Foals - Mountain At My Gates

(2015)

Commentary: This is the first spherical music video I have ever seen.

Wayward Son

(5): Porkens, ProfessorDrapion, Galron, Salsabil Faria, Shiidaji (E-1)

geraintm

(3): Wayward Son, Crescent, NJAC

Galron

(1): KittyTacky

MalcolmTucker

(1): geraintm

Porkens

(1): MalcolmTucker

With 11 alive, it takes 6 to eliminate.

Day 1 ends in: (expired on 2022-09-19 10:24:00).

If you saw me randomly posting "Mine!" or "VC here" 1-2 hours ago, your eyes did not deceive you, it was me. I deleted these posts so I would do the VC here instead.

Most recent count.

[MalcolmTucker]

Granted it's just the way they play the game but Gera not particularly caring that their vanity wagon puts them at risk of going out does make them look a bit more town. Unless we've somehow landed on two scum here, which strikes me as unlikely.

[MalcolmTucker]

You're voting gera right malcom?

Yes. Hard slot to read but increasingly scummy throughout the day. I scumread Wayward earlier on but increasingly believe them to be town.

[MalcolmTucker]

Gera's strategy is odd too because they do actually lean scum on Wayward. Their wagon on me isn't going anywhere so it's a perfect place to place a vote. Guess the scum motive for not doing so would be they know Wayward is town, and a late switch looks opportunistic. Perhaps gambling on surviving and hoping the Wayward wagon is ultimately pushed over by someone else. Suppose for scum in such a position there's always the possible out of a late claim if things start to go south.

[MalcolmTucker]

I know there's some meta about geraintm, but he could easily be scum here. I'd prefer limming him over Wayward to be honest.

Indeed, his no lim approach is NAI because it's within his remit as town but the contradictions in his play are scummy.

[MalcolmTucker]

Unless Wayward has nerves of steel here we're not going to see a claim because Wayward is likely town. Their posts over the past day scream fairly relaxed town to me who's been invested enough in the game to not just duck out but not to a point where they're desperate to stay in if they believe their lim can be helpful down the line for us.

[MalcolmTucker]

I won't be around at deadline. I don't really think a no-lim is all that great, even my lim would be better, in my opinion. Scum are already probably on the wagon, so it might take a Townie to push it over, that's sad.

Yeah this seems really townie at this point. But I agree an elimination is better than a no lim for info.

If we're right up to the deadline and we need someone to hammer I will.

But would rather leave that job to someone who actually thinks Wayward is scum here, if another person in such a position is around. The fact this wagon hasn't been pushed over yet is quite interesting.

[MalcolmTucker]

I'm in the same position as Malcolm.

If necessary will hammer.

Are you planning to do so? I will be headed to bed soon so will do in next 15-20 mins if no reply. I'm fine for whoever wants to take it on.

[MalcolmTucker]

In fact, nothing is changing now, best to just go for it. Sorry Wayward, but if you're town should hopefully help us solve going forward.

VOTE: Wayward Son

[MalcolmTucker]

Agreed, should be informative D2 I think if Wayward is town.

[MalcolmTucker]

On the one hand killing someone vocally on your wagon is risky and implicates you, on the other hand it's maybe not the worst approach if you feel like Crescent is on the right path and you need them eliminated for the benefit of scum. Especially when Ger knew they'd be in trouble today, protecting their teammate may be the best approach here.

[MalcolmTucker]

Who do you think is scum, Ger? Willing to countenance a world where you're town given I've seen you come across as anti-town on D1 before but need some proper reads now that go beyond scumreading a widely townread player on the basis of one post you didn't like.

[MalcolmTucker]

Pretty sure team is NJAC and Shii

Why Shii?

[MalcolmTucker]

looking at the wagons from day 1, i can only see the 2 main ones on Galron and Wayward Son. There was a minor one later on on me that had 3 people on it - 2 of whom are dead and the other was NJAC

Galron (4): Salsabil Faria, NJAC, Shiidaji, MalcolmTucker
that was Galron's
Wayward Son (5): Porkens, ProfessorDrapion, Galron, Shiidaji, Salsabil Faria, MalcolmTucker (Hammer)
that was the hammer

All 4 on Galron either ended up on Watward Son - Town, or me - Also Town (yes yes, i knwo you lot don't know that but i do).

Those 4 would be where i would suggest there is a much higher chance of there being scum than not.

I've TR'd Salsa and Shii so far, so they're two I fear could be strong scum managing to conceal their alignment. Doubt both will be a team though.

[MalcolmTucker]

Malcolm can you reply to my 732 wrt Crescent's case on Ger I'd really like that

Gera's play has been contradictory and at times reads as someone less playing from a townie POV and more someone who is informed trying to mask their scum motives.

Towards the end of D1 you had Gera regularly saying we definitely wouldn't hit scum. This felt less like a prediction and more like an attempt to seem like a townie with foresight that was overdone - despite acknowledging Wayward was town Ger made no attempt to formulate a viable alternative. This is sort of a hallmark of Ger's D1 play but the issue is they'd have happily eliminated me, so it wasn't consistent here; basically Ger essentially refused to participate in the wagon unless it was the one wagon Ger wanted.

And their push on me was rubbish and fabricated from very little too, read more like scum forcing a read on someone they knew wouldn't be limmed.

[MalcolmTucker]

A quick skim of Shii's ISO has them as very townie for me. Struggling to see much scum motivation there at all.

[MalcolmTucker]

I strongly believe ger is town.

I think Crescent's case on Gera is solid. Their contradictions here do not make sense as town. Moving my vote before going to sleep.

VOTE: Geraintm

That’s a scummy fucking vote.

What do people think of these posts? On the one hand they feel a bit too obvious for Porkens and Gera to be teammates. Scum would typically be more subtle. But from Porkens' game so far I'm not exactly sure subtlety is something they really do. The second post here feels like an overreaction; why does Porkens, as someone who admitted themselves struggled with reads, have such a strong townread and visceral reaction to a vote on a player who is notoriously difficult to read confidently in D1?

[MalcolmTucker]

Yeah, I know but I'm not confirming anything.... when saw the flip, immediately 3 names came to mind who are in my town block atm, so the rests are in my POE.

Did

Crescent

townread

Shiidaji

?

Crescent didn't seem to have too many thoughts on Shii.

[MalcolmTucker]

My POE is

{

Professor

,

Porkens

,

Shiidaji

,

Galron

,

geraintm

}

(in no particular order) by creating the town-block including

{

NJAC

,

Malcolm

,

Kitty

}

#
you voted off a towie, you dont get to make town blocs

Famously scum never distance themselves from a town elimination for towncred.

[MalcolmTucker]

Ger, I get it's frustrating when you have a style and it maybe clashes with other players, but if you want people to townread you then you can't just automatically shade others for being on a town wagon (which clearly was not all scum) when you actively refused to leave a wagon on me you knew wasn't going to pass. It makes you look suspect and without meta I'd have my vote locked onto you here.

[MalcolmTucker]

Malcolm can you reply to my 732 wrt Crescent's case on Ger I'd really like that

Gera's play has been contradictory and at times reads as someone less playing from a townie POV and more someone who is informed trying to mask their scum motives.

Towards the end of D1 you had Gera regularly saying we definitely wouldn't hit scum. This felt less like a prediction and more like an attempt to seem like a townie with foresight that was overdone - despite acknowledging Wayward was town Ger made no attempt to formulate a viable alternative. This is sort of a hallmark of Ger's D1 play but the issue is they'd have happily eliminated me, so it wasn't consistent here; basically Ger essentially refused to participate in the wagon unless it was the one wagon Ger wanted.

And their push on me was rubbish and fabricated from very little too, read more like scum forcing a read on someone they knew wouldn't be limmed.

what is contradictory about me saying i wish we didn't eliminate anyone day 1

, me saying i think day 1 wagons are way more likely to end on a townie than not, and me saying i hate day 1 because there is literally no info to go on. that all seems pretty much self contained.

you complain that i didnt jump up and down and try and get an alternative to wayward son - but that would have just be based on "gut feelings" and would have been as wrong as anyone else's.

You did want an elimination D1 though, you wanted to eliminate me. That's my issue here. You dismissed the value of D1 when it suited you but pushed exclusively one vote at the same time, indeed you even voted for me twice without removing the first vote! You were clearly okay with an elimination provided it was exactly the one you wanted, lest you have to compromise at all. This is anti-town because it's a deliberate attempt from obscuring how others are able to read you D1, indeed your defence of your play here is that basically you don't like D1 when other players have repeatedly affirmed the value of it time and time again.

[MalcolmTucker]

My POE is

{

Professor

,

Porkens

,

Shiidaji

,

Galron

,

geraintm

}

(in no particular order) by creating the town-block including

{

NJAC

,

Malcolm

,

Kitty

}

#
you voted off a towie, you dont get to make town blocs

Famously scum never distance themselves from a town elimination for towncred.

i dont understand this post.

and @ njac - my style is what it is. calling me names isnt going to get me to change.

You are shading Salsa for making up their townblock because they voted out a townie. My argument here is town are uninformed and so will often accidentally eliminate town. Your stance here is unhelpful because you are using your meta-refusal to push on D1 (which you did anyway when it suited you) as an attempt to gain town-cred over players like Salsa. You are suggesting you are more townie for not eliminating Wayward which is blatantly untrue, unless your approach to mafia is that all scum automatically just vote out town and never attempt distancing. I don't think that's fair. Either you scumread Salsa or you townread them, or someone inbetween. If it's not the former, there should be value to you in Salsa presenting you with a townblock.

[MalcolmTucker]

Malcolm can you reply to my 732 wrt Crescent's case on Ger I'd really like that

Gera's play has been contradictory and at times reads as someone less playing from a townie POV and more someone who is informed trying to mask their scum motives.

Towards the end of D1 you had Gera regularly saying we definitely wouldn't hit scum. This felt less like a prediction and more like an attempt to seem like a townie with foresight that was overdone - despite acknowledging Wayward was town Ger made no attempt to formulate a viable alternative. This is sort of a hallmark of Ger's D1 play but the issue is they'd have happily eliminated me, so it wasn't consistent here; basically Ger essentially refused to participate in the wagon unless it was the one wagon Ger wanted.

And their push on me was rubbish and fabricated from very little too, read more like scum forcing a read on someone they knew wouldn't be limmed.

what is contradictory about me saying i wish we didn't eliminate anyone day 1

, me saying i think day 1 wagons are way more likely to end on a townie than not, and me saying i hate day 1 because there is literally no info to go on. that all seems pretty much self contained.

you complain that i didnt jump up and down and try and get an alternative to wayward son - but that would have just be based on "gut feelings" and would have been as wrong as anyone else's.

You did want an elimination D1 though, you wanted to eliminate me. That's my issue here. You dismissed the value of D1 when it suited you but pushed exclusively one vote at the same time, indeed you even voted for me twice without removing the first vote! You were clearly okay with an elimination provided it was exactly the one you wanted, lest you have to compromise at all. This is anti-town because it's a deliberate attempt from obscuring how others are able to read you D1, indeed your defence of your play here is that basically you don't like D1 when other players have repeatedly affirmed the value of it time and time again.

then i was in error yesterday for not just giving you a naughty point and actually placing a vote like i normally do

Okay, so why did you vote me? And why did your refusal to engage in the process of finding a player to eliminate only actually begin later in the turn? You were being much more helpful early in D1. How are we actually supposed to read you here when your stance is "I don't like D1 so anything I say then doesn't matter"? Do you not see the glaring contradiction here which makes players scumread you? If you are town, again, I am saying you can engage with these reasons and try to actually help us find scum. This current approach is not helping and is not conductive to town.

[MalcolmTucker]

I think whoever steered the wagon away from Galron is scum with Galron.
VOTE: Galron

I'd argue Salsa and Shii were the two key switches onto Wayward which essentially killed off Galron's wagon. But I don't particularly scumread either of them and their reasoning were solid.

Myself and NJAC voted for Ger around that time too, which was the third possible wagon, but again our votes were reasonable based on what went before. Who specifically do you think is implicating from the Galron wagon withering away?

[MalcolmTucker]

Well, drunk

Wayward

is very funny

@Malcolm

, we won't have much info if we flip

Porkens

today.... I think town's best choice is in between

Galron

&

Wayward

atm. And I don’t want to eliminate

geraintm

today.

@Wayward

, yes I agree with you about checking me, my life will be so much easier in later game.
One question though, why don’t you townread me anymore? Apart from I'm voting you?

Unless Salsa was bluffing here I don't see their switch to Wayward as particularly scum motivated with the defence of teammate Galron - they say quite openly they still considered Galron to be a good choice for elimination. I'm not sure the shakers and movers D1 were necessarily scum here - it's possible scum settled for slots they liked and wanted to push early on and then stuck there.

[MalcolmTucker]

I've seen Gera do this no elimination on D1 thing before but my issue at the moment is they weren't particularly bothered about it early on and appeared to be genuinely scumhunting, whereas now they seriously want to avoid us voting while we look to consolidate on Galron's wagon.

Given the short period of time we have left I think I'm content vote here. But town should obviously be careful as we'll be approaching hammer soon, think my vote is the 4th.

VOTE: Galron

VOTE: Galron

I veto gera, they play day 1 like this as town, they're at worst null, kill Galron today.

Gera is always anti-town day 1 even if they're not scum.

Is there any reason Ger/Kitty can't be a possible team here as well? Kitty's not gotten too much scrutiny so far but hasn't done much to convince me they're town.

Note the "veto" here - again part of the difficulty with Ger's approach is it's often hard to read D1 but when we were reaching a point where compromise was potentially necessary, why was Kitty so against Ger being eliminated? If they always play like this D1 then it has to be acknowledged that can encompass scum games.

Kitty's determination to push Galron has at least been consistent but also feels like the sort of single-minded logic scum can sometimes get into to ensure they look like they have a strong and driven push. It doesn't feel like Kitty is that open to alternatives to the point where they're basing their other solves almost exclusively on whoever is likely to be paired with Galron, without providing evidence (so far) for who that is likely to be.

[MalcolmTucker]

Yeah I should have mentioned that gera is weird, they don't give a damn about the game day 1 and basically become Not_Mafia until D2. That's why I'm hesitant to vote them.

I'd also argue Kitty's tone re Ger changed significantly once the wagon on the slot started to gain some momentum.

At first they were merely hesitant due to playstyle; then hesitancy turned into a hard veto. They compared Ger's early play to Not_Mafia but when stuck in previous games there have been occasions where NM has basically been treated like a policy lim.

Kitty stayed on Galron and clearly wasn't particularly confident about eliminating Wayward - but why not fight for that slot as well? Especially when they admitted their read on Ger was no more than "null".

[MalcolmTucker]

Professor, for when you're around, what do you think of Ger's slot?

[MalcolmTucker]

Okay. Professor, what was your claim yesterday? I can’t find it.

Any thoughts this turn? What do you make of my Ger/Kitty read? How does Wayward turning out to be town affect your read on the game?

[MalcolmTucker]

Ger, do you have any scumreads at all? You don't even seem to be pushing me this turn.

[MalcolmTucker]

I think whoever steered the wagon away from Galron is scum with Galron.
VOTE: Galron

I'd argue Salsa and Shii were the two key switches onto Wayward which essentially killed off Galron's wagon. But I don't particularly scumread either of them and their reasoning were solid.

Myself and NJAC voted for Ger around that time too, which was the third possible wagon, but again our votes were reasonable based on what went before. Who specifically do you think is implicating from the Galron wagon withering away?

you can scum read people for their actions, even if they don't sound scummy.
need to check their votes on wayward (and others) and what their reasoning was and how badly their stink

You can, but my point is I'm struggling to see the scum motivation for the move away from Galron to Wayward at the moment. Several of the players who eventually voted for Wayward (myself included, albeit I didn't like the wagon and only hammered) would have also accepted a vote on Galron had that been where we settled. Unless they were bluffing I'm not seeing the scum motive there at the moment.

[MalcolmTucker]

In fact, nothing is changing now, best to just go for it. Sorry Wayward, but if you're town should hopefully help us solve going forward.

VOTE: Wayward Son

Agreed, should be informative D2 I think if Wayward is town.

these are malcolm's hammer vote on wayward.
that is low, low effort. if this is scum then it has the reluctant "i suppose i need to hammer but i think they are scum" vibes to it.
they hinted at if it was a green flip, then Day 2 would be intersting, but they (to me) seem to have just focussed on me for my day 1 actions.

I said quite openly that I didn't like Wayward being eliminated because their responses in the aftermath of the wagon gaining momentum were townie.

I did not particularly want to hammer but did so because - despite your insistence otherwise - a mislim D1 provides us with more information for D2 than no elimination at all does. To suggest I was hammering out of opportunism is just blatantly incorrect from a quick read of what happened. A consensus had to be reached because some players were ardently refusing to move from wagons that were going nowhere, which is anti-town and just completely counterproductive to finding scum.

There is again a contradiction in your play here - you claim D1 miselimination's are useless and yet your vote for D2 here is clearly likely to be based off of the information we are gaining from that flip. If you are town I need you to understand this is just inherently contradictory; I suspect you are scum though on the basis of posts like this.

VOTE: Geraintm

[MalcolmTucker]

I'm trying not to just tunnel on Ger here because I'm aware I could be in the wrong but other players need to read the above posts and understand Ger is both criticising the D1 miselimination, a turn in which they basically refused to consider any viable wagon, while likely basing their vote this turn off of what ended up happening with that wagon. Their strategy here is to shade players who miseliminated a townie while seemingly using the fact they didn't join any wagon at all as town-cred.

For anyone in doubt, read through the sequence toward the end of D1. I tried to get a wagon going on Porkens. I wanted Ger eliminated. I'd initially scumread Wayward but doubted that read once they began to post more in light of the suspicion falling on them. I literally asked if anyone else wanted to hammer because I was uncomfortable with the wagon, but decided someone had to ensure there was at least an elimination of some sort before I went to bed. It's quite evidently not scummy behaviour.

[MalcolmTucker]

overall, i can see there being a high chance of scum in the grouping of Salsabil, shiidaji and malcolm, and GAlron potentially as the scum wagon that got derailed.
i dont think i'll be voting outside that group today

Cool, do you actually plan to mount a case on any of these players? Which posts/positioning on the wagon do you find suspect in regards to Shii/Salsa, for example? Who was protecting Galron with their vote, considering a number of us would have still been content with a Galron elimination anyway?

[MalcolmTucker]

@malcolm.

i dont want day 1 eliminations. i believe town is best served not killing anyone and starting the game only 1 player down and with whatever night info they have, rather than 2 down.
i think everyone's thoughts on day 1 are pointless.
but you can use the info gained from actual actions - votes - on day 1 during day 2.
i think during day 1 all but the few scum (and in there are townies with extra info) are just waffling out of their arses everytime they say someone is scummy (and yes, i include myself in that). during day 1 you can't do anything with what anyone says, it is just pointless. i sit there and give out naughty points as place holders for when i think someone has done something i dont like and want to make a note that later on they can be used as something to return to - (which is what i should have done with you instead of voting).

but once we have a flip then we can start to piece the game together.
and that is what i am trying to do.

you cannot use the defence of "i didnt really want to eliminate wayward, look i said it!" whilst then actually voting for them.

that is an action and i can make reads based off your actions.
you cannot say that you only voted them off because it provides more information, and then vote for me for using the very information you have provided for my reads!

Sorry but you continually ignore what the vast, vast majority of players who play mafia say on this one - D1 eliminations have value because they give us info. Without info we are shooting into the dark D2. With no elimination we'd have nothing because Crescent is a strong player and would have been an unsurprising night-kill no matter what.

Now we know Porkens consistently pushed town from the start. Now we know who voted out a townie - reasonably or otherwise - going forward. We know who actively avoided the wagon, perhaps for their own self-gain.

The majority of mafia for uninformed town involves shooting into the dark. Even now, on D2, our info remains somewhat limited, because if you are town you do not know who is scum, the literal point is to solve, whether it be based on intuition, votes, gut or links between players. Without eliminations and votes it is impossible to do that. Refusing to compromise on wagons or eliminate players is fundamentally anti-town. You have been told this over and over again, by players who are experienced and good at mafia, and you simply refuse to take this info on-board.

If you are town your suspicion of me for the hammer is just fundamentally a complete misreading of the game. I have said, multiple times now, we needed someone to be voted out D1 and nobody has hammered. My concern when going to bed was nobody would be around to do so and we would head into D2 without an elimination. What if Wayward had actually been scum? It would've been a wasted turn. I don't think you are town but if you are - without meaning to sound like a dick here, please engage with the actual realities of the game and how everyone else plays mafia instead of holding theories and reads based on your own obscure approach to the game nobody else actually agrees with or follows.

It is simply impossible to work alongside a townie who refuses to compromise on a wagon because they think they know better, then blames another player for hammering because too many players in the game are just outright refusing to compromise or consider an alternative elimination to whoever they want out.

And again - this is part of my issue with your approach here. You say D1 is useless but pushed me. When it suits you, you are evidently happy to eliminate, but then won't compromise on anyone else. That is just fundamentally anti-town, mafia involves compromise.

[MalcolmTucker]

Sorry for the rant but if Ger is not scum here and is town, then we are simply not going to win this game if people regard a last-minute hammer to ensure an elimination happens and to ensure we have info going into D2 as being scummy. I literally asked if anyone else planned to hammer. I didn't just jump for it. I tried to start alternative wagons, both on Ger and Porkens. To accuse me of hammering in a way that was cynical or scummy is just fucking lazy play and it's really annoying to have to deal with it because players won't either readjust their reads based on the circumstances of the game, or because players won't take responsibility for refusing to compromise on a wagon and instead remaining on players who had one vote with just hours to go, thereby risking us missing an elimination altogether. It is fundamentally, absolutely anti-town, it is unhelpful and it muddies the waters if it cannot be regarded as scummy because players wave it off as being how they always play.

[MalcolmTucker]

Not able to post yet but brief skim and Malcom looks pretty scum. Beating a dead horse in grandiose fashion.

What dead horse am I beating? My vote is for the player currently with the most votes. Do you plan to get back to any of the points I raised?

[MalcolmTucker]

I think whoever steered the wagon away from Galron is scum with Galron.
VOTE: Galron

Can you please summarize your case on Galron?

I'm sheeping Malcolm who sheeped Crescent.

The previous post sums up exactly why I'm not against voting Porkens. Barring a full-on town confirmation. players like him almost always get voted off eventually. It's a matter of when, not if.

But here's a fun fact: Galron really has arguably done even

less

than Porkens has, he just hasn't been as obvious about it. He has given exactly one reason to suspect Drapion (#179), said he's voting him or Malcolm is #384, and given exactly one reason to suspect Malcolm (#472). That's... Really it.

Porkers may be doing next to nothing, but his approach to Wayward, as much as I had to pull teeth to get him to actually elaborate on anything, is more than we've gotten out of Galron. Porkens is failing, but Galron feels like he's totally lurking from commitment.

I feel like we have circled around this train while discussing trains to oppose it, while most people seem to agree everyone voting him is town, while the player the train is on hasn't given us any reason to look away him. I have yet to see anything that resembles true, game-solving thought process, and he's the lowest poster in the entire game, who has done effectively nothing since September 13th.

IMO this makes sense, I played with town Galron and he's not this much of a contentless lurker.

I think Professor is town too, Galron just hid in the shadows while two townies were being run up.

BTW

@Mod the thread icon is still a moon and not a sun.

I feel like I've seen Galron generally play this way as either alignment? Sometimes they've been more active but never tends to be a dominant figure in games.

[MalcolmTucker]

That's what we were trying to convince Ger of D1. They are set on their bad playstyle. But it's a fact they do it as town. And I oppose policy lims on principle.

Yes but they employ that playstyle as town and scum. What do you think of their actual play so far? This isn't a policy lim for me, it's that Ger has reverted to their suited playstyle when convenient but pushes players when they think it's beneficial for them. Do you basically think Ger should get a free pass to the end of the game?

[MalcolmTucker]

Okay. Professor, what was your claim yesterday? I can’t find it.

Any thoughts this turn? What do you make of my Ger/Kitty read? How does Wayward turning out to be town affect your read on the game?

I think ger is town based on his soft claim. Kitty I’m unsure on.

Can you actually get back to the things I asked you?

[MalcolmTucker]

Reasonable questions, I’ll try to answer after work.

This is what I'm referring to. Porkens, can you respond please? How does Wayward's elimination affect your read of the game?

[MalcolmTucker]

@malcolm.

i dont want day 1 eliminations. i believe town is best served not killing anyone and starting the game only 1 player down and with whatever night info they have, rather than 2 down.
i think everyone's thoughts on day 1 are pointless.
but you can use the info gained from actual actions - votes - on day 1 during day 2.
i think during day 1 all but the few scum (and in there are townies with extra info) are just waffling out of their arses everytime they say someone is scummy (and yes, i include myself in that). during day 1 you can't do anything with what anyone says, it is just pointless. i sit there and give out naughty points as place holders for when i think someone has done something i dont like and want to make a note that later on they can be used as something to return to - (which is what i should have done with you instead of voting).

but once we have a flip then we can start to piece the game together.
and that is what i am trying to do.

you cannot use the defence of "i didnt really want to eliminate wayward, look i said it!" whilst then actually voting for them.

that is an action and i can make reads based off your actions.
you cannot say that you only voted them off because it provides more information, and then vote for me for using the very information you have provided for my reads!

Sorry but you continually ignore what the vast, vast majority of players who play mafia say on this one - D1 eliminations have value because they give us info. Without info we are shooting into the dark D2. With no elimination we'd have nothing because Crescent is a strong player and would have been an unsurprising night-kill no matter what.

Now we know Porkens consistently pushed town from the start. Now we know who voted out a townie - reasonably or otherwise - going forward. We know who actively avoided the wagon, perhaps for their own self-gain.

The majority of mafia for uninformed town involves shooting into the dark. Even now, on D2, our info remains somewhat limited, because if you are town you do not know who is scum, the literal point is to solve, whether it be based on intuition, votes, gut or links between players. Without eliminations and votes it is impossible to do that. Refusing to compromise on wagons or eliminate players is fundamentally anti-town. You have been told this over and over again, by players who are experienced and good at mafia, and you simply refuse to take this info on-board.

If you are town your suspicion of me for the hammer is just fundamentally a complete misreading of the game. I have said, multiple times now, we needed someone to be voted out D1 and nobody has hammered. My concern when going to bed was nobody would be around to do so and we would head into D2 without an elimination. What if Wayward had actually been scum? It would've been a wasted turn. I don't think you are town but if you are - without meaning to sound like a dick here, please engage with the actual realities of the game and how everyone else plays mafia instead of holding theories and reads based on your own obscure approach to the game nobody else actually agrees with or follows.

It is simply impossible to work alongside a townie who refuses to compromise on a wagon because they think they know better, then blames another player for hammering because too many players in the game are just outright refusing to compromise or consider an alternative elimination to whoever they want out.

And again - this is part of my issue with your approach here. You say D1 is useless but pushed me. When it suits you, you are evidently happy to eliminate, but then won't compromise on anyone else. That is just fundamentally anti-town, mafia involves compromise.

This is what i was talking about dead horses. There is just no reason to go one so verbosely about this issue. It clutters thread and is anti town

Anti-town from someone whose approach has basically been to vocally not have reads so far, cool. Go with this approach if you want but it's crap if town.

[MalcolmTucker]

I’m town and I think Galron is town so it’s kinda sad he thinks I’m wolf.

I don't see why town Galron pushes you. I have my inner doubts you're actually town too since you could be deceptive scum not caught out on a false claim but it's a useless area for scum to push here because I doubt you get eliminated this turn. It makes Galron look more townie to me.

[MalcolmTucker]

Malcom who does geraintm have partner equity with?

Ger/Kitty has potential but is limited for me due to them both sitting off the wagon. Feel like one of them would at least push for a main wagon once Galron faded.

Ger/Porkens has a shit-ton of equity but maybe too obvious.

[MalcolmTucker]

I’m town and I think Galron is town so it’s kinda sad he thinks I’m wolf.

I don't see why town Galron pushes you. I have my inner doubts you're actually town too since you could be deceptive scum not caught out on a false claim but it's a useless area for scum to push here because I doubt you get eliminated this turn. It makes Galron look more townie to me.

Sorry, I don't see why scum Galron pushes you sorry. Typo.

[MalcolmTucker]

How is that scummy?

[MalcolmTucker]

Like I suspect Kitty but that is completely NAI for me.

[MalcolmTucker]

Okay. Professor, what was your claim yesterday? I can’t find it.

Any thoughts this turn? What do you make of my Ger/Kitty read? How does Wayward turning out to be town affect your read on the game?

It really doesn’t do much, I’m bad at wagon analysis. I think kitty is more likely scum than ger given the soft. Galton I could see scum too.

Cool, give me a good analysis of why you're town. Because on play alone you look scummy.

I think you and Ger is too obvious though. Feel like you'd at least attempt distancing if you were paired.

[MalcolmTucker]

How is that scummy?

Because it’s exactly the kind of post scum makes when they want to appear active but don’t want to dó anything

It's the third par on a post which contains two pars of analysis above it. Your overreaction could be construed as equally scummy. My confusion with you is you seem to lack the ability to make reads until you suddenly latch onto something small out of nowhere.

[MalcolmTucker]

I’m not going to make a town analysis of myself, no.
You get my reads, analyze how you want.

You were the primary pusher on the D1 miselimination. This is an unnecessarily confrontational response.

What have you done so far that should make me trust you as fellow town?

[MalcolmTucker]

I generally hate colour coded list reads but I feel like I'm on the verge of asking for them because some players are just being so obscure and odd about how they actually read other players here.

[MalcolmTucker]

In fact, you know what, I'm invested in this one - if everyone can send in town/null/scum readlists I'll compile them together and see where we're at.

[MalcolmTucker]

You're around now Porkens - nine players, feel free to submit your list. Town/null/scum, easy to separate with nine players.

[MalcolmTucker]

No order within groups:

Ger
Salsa
Professor

Njak
Malcomb

Gal
Kitty
Birdy

Ish

Cool, so your list is town/town-lean/scum-lean/scummy?

[MalcolmTucker]

Those feel like townie posts from Shii.

Shii - you're correct my positioning moving off Wayward was solid. I scumread them early on but read back those posts and it's clear they had a town attitude, a solid mix of still involving themselves in the game but not caring too much if they got eliminated. I pointed this out and was happy to eliminate Ger or explore Porkens.

[MalcolmTucker]

town

Null

Scummy

But you have four categories?

[MalcolmTucker]

town

Null

Scummy

But you have four categories?

Wait is Ish meant to be blank or something? I get it now.

[MalcolmTucker]

Kitty's sheeping feels kinda townie to me despite my uncertainty on the slot. While it can vary I feel like players are sometimes more willing to openly sheep as town; it can sometimes look lazy and scum typically don't want to seem lazy.

[MalcolmTucker]

Porkens - do you plan to vote Kitty and is it a slot you'd like to see eliminated? I feel you're applying a bit of pressure here but not necessarily doing much with it. Do you think Kitty is scummy beyond the vote sheeping? I ask because I have a slight fear this could be some scum theatre between the two of you.

[MalcolmTucker]

I'm sorry I"m just not feeling like this right now but it did occur to me that kitty's lack of reassessment or I guess unwillingness to look anywhere else is anti-town. They suss Porkens as being a partner of mine but their read on me is a sheep read. There is no independent thought there. They're basing the entire game on me being scum as suspected by someone else. There is no thought of who could be scum outside of a scum!galron world.

That being said they say they hyperfocus on things and that it's nai. I've played just one game with kitty and they were scum reading me throughout that game, although it didn't seem as intense, and I was town there too. So I'm really on the fence as to whter this is scummy or just anti-town.

Their read on you definitely does feel lazy but it almost feels too lazy to be scummy if that makes sense - I feel like scum would want to perhaps make it less obvious they're sheeping and would at least keep another avenue open elsewhere on the off-chance you claim or something like that.

[MalcolmTucker]

@Salsa - I get Ger killing Crescent could seem a bit obvious but it was noted at the start of the game Crescent's a capable and skilled player, and I don't think anyone was shocked to see they were the NK. I think that cover would be enough for Ger to consider going for it and getting rid of Crescent anyway. If they're scum it hasn't worked out too badly here, they're not definitely going to be voted out and they've got rid of someone vocally scumreading them who was a bit of a town leader in the process.

[MalcolmTucker]

I'm still willing to compile everyone's town/scum lists by the way. Think I only have two thus far.

[MalcolmTucker]

On Galron, I dunno, I'm split. There's not too much effort from the slot just now and I can see the idea they're just lurking around and not doing much in the hope they'll avoid attention. But I've not found their actions during the game particularly scummy.

Kitty points out Galron isn't usually this low effort as town but I feel like I definitely have seen them coast a bit as town before.

And it concerns me that Kitty reads - beyond being sheeped - feel like they are all just primarily depending on meta. Galron is scum because they're posting too little; Ger is town because they always play this way. It's a useful way for scum to seem like they have opinions without having an actual view or opinion on the gamestate as it is. My stance on meta is it's useful but has limitations and I think it can look scummy when players use meta to hide behind a read.

[MalcolmTucker]

@Salsa - I get Ger killing Crescent could seem a bit obvious but it was noted at the start of the game Crescent's a capable and skilled player, and I don't think anyone was shocked to see they were the NK. I think that cover would be enough for Ger to consider going for it and getting rid of Crescent anyway. If they're scum it hasn't worked out too badly here, they're not definitely going to be voted out and they've got rid of someone vocally scumreading them who was a bit of a town leader in the process.

I know..... I'm going with my gut feeling on this.... I can't read

geraintm

tbh...

Btw, do you notice 1073?

I didn't notice a soft-claim but I am horrendous at spotting or dishing out crumbs.

[MalcolmTucker]

VOTE: ProfessorDrapion

I’m losing WiM for this game tbh.

We're not voting for you, your role may not be important but I doubt you're scum here.

[MalcolmTucker]

Malcom has a definite manipulative scum vibe though.

You keep saying stuff like this but don't really provide any evidence for what I'm doing that's manipulating the gamestate. Your read here feels forced, like you need to pick somebody to scumread and so might as well go for someone who'd potentially be okay with eliminating you. What am I doing that's manipulative?

[MalcolmTucker]

@Salsa - I get Ger killing Crescent could seem a bit obvious but it was noted at the start of the game Crescent's a capable and skilled player, and I don't think anyone was shocked to see they were the NK. I think that cover would be enough for Ger to consider going for it and getting rid of Crescent anyway. If they're scum it hasn't worked out too badly here, they're not definitely going to be voted out and they've got rid of someone vocally scumreading them who was a bit of a town leader in the process.

So, your thinking is, let me get this straight....for me to suggest that people check out Crescent, and then immediately night one either scum me or one of my partners go round their house. And risk someone else be there and spot us?

That is what you think my plan one. Days before Crescent suspect me, I was already setting them up to kill because I knew that it wouldn't come back on me because I knew from my first post that later kn Crescent was going to think me scum?

My reasoning for you potentially killing Crescent is much simpler - Crescent is a good player and was scumreading you. If you are scum then it's in your self-interest to have Crescent removed from the game ASAP. Same could be said even for someone who Crescent was TR'ing because Crescent is someone who plays vigilantly and if town will provide in-depth analysis which is useful for town.

You saying Crescent should be checked doesn't really matter to me because there's no guarantee anyone in an important role was going to take your advice, doubly so toward the end of D1 when most of us were TR'ing Crescent. Investigate roles as a rule want to check players who seem scummy, not players others think are town.

[MalcolmTucker]

Ever so slightly coming round to Galron as possible scum.

Does sort of feel like the slot is just floating along without doing much at the moment in a way which could be damage limitation for scum. Their play itself hasn't been hugely scummy but doesn't feel like they're doing a lot that feels overly townie either.

[MalcolmTucker]

Doing a bit of an ISO read and some of Galron's reads feel a bit opportunistic or underdeveloped at times as well.

There's some initial suspicion of Professor when that was the increasingly popular wagon but it feels very much like the type of read which could come from scum wanting to be on said popular wagon. I don't feel like Galron ever pushed there all that strongly.

Then there's a pretty late vote on Wayward which could have been construed as opportunistic as well. Again there's not really much of a push or a strongly developed read beyond the vote itself.

There'd also been an initial scumread on me largely based around my approach which was pretty weak and never went anywhere. Again in retrospect could have perhaps been quite forced in an attempt to look busy.

[MalcolmTucker]

I don't wantnto vote porkens
I think I want to VOTE: malcolm

Yeah this is just blatantly scummy given I'm not going to get eliminated here, going to stick with Ger. Not confident on Galron but more confident Ger ultimately comes back scum, think I'm second-guessing myself too much.

[MalcolmTucker]

On Galron, I dunno, I'm split. There's not too much effort from the slot just now and I can see the idea they're just lurking around and not doing much in the hope they'll avoid attention. But I've not found their actions during the game particularly scummy.

Kitty points out Galron isn't usually this low effort as town but I feel like I definitely have seen them coast a bit as town before.

And it concerns me that Kitty reads - beyond being sheeped - feel like they are all just primarily depending on meta. Galron is scum because they're posting too little; Ger is town because they always play this way. It's a useful way for scum to seem like they have opinions without having an actual view or opinion on the gamestate as it is. My stance on meta is it's useful but has limitations and I think it can look scummy when players use meta to hide behind a read.

It feels like you are tactically fence sitting and bidding your time.

How is putting forward a scumcase for someone fence sitting?

[MalcolmTucker]

To varying degrees I'd be happy with any of Ger, Galron or Porkens going today, roughly in that order. If the town consolidates on one of them I will change my vote if others are sticking to vanity wagons. That is not fence-sitting at all.

[MalcolmTucker]

To varying degrees I'd be happy with any of Ger, Galron or Porkens going today, roughly in that order. If the town consolidates on one of them I will change my vote if others are sticking to vanity wagons. That is not fence-sitting at all.

What happened with your case on Kitty? Did you change your mind on that slot?

Also, what do you think about Galron's softclaim?

Forgot about Kitty here but not opposed to an elimination on them. I think it's likely there's one scum in Kitty/Galron for sure. Doesn't seem to be a lot of pressure indicating anyone wants to vote out Kitty right now though.

Can you link me to the softclaim? I constantly miss crumbs when they're thrown.

[MalcolmTucker]

I don't wantnto vote porkens
I think I want to VOTE: malcolm

I don't like this vote. As others have said we don't need another vanity day from you.

Agreed, the only thing that's making me doubt my scumread on Ger is their play is so blatantly anti-town in its approach. They admit themselves the case isn't even that strong but refuse to budge. It also feels weird that they're saying they don't want to touch Porkens at all and yet won't actually move onto a viable counterwagon to save them.

It makes me pause on Porkens as possible scum a bit - if Ger is scum here then it feels like their MO is to basically sit off the most popular town wagon to try and gain cred as town for doing so by instead sitting on a wagon they know won't go through and doesn't have a chance of going through.

[MalcolmTucker]

To varying degrees I'd be happy with any of Ger, Galron or Porkens going today, roughly in that order. If the town consolidates on one of them I will change my vote if others are sticking to vanity wagons. That is not fence-sitting at all.

What happened with your case on Kitty? Did you change your mind on that slot?

Also, what do you think about Galron's softclaim?

Forgot about Kitty here but not opposed to an elimination on them. I think it's likely there's one scum in Kitty/Galron for sure. Doesn't seem to be a lot of pressure indicating anyone wants to vote out Kitty right now though.

Can you link me to the softclaim? I constantly miss crumbs when they're thrown.

680

Also, if you think Kitty deserves votes, even if there's not much pressure yet, you should insist. You could start the pressure.

I've said I have other preferred eliminations though, hence why I've not been as vocal about the slot. Been a lot of players looking scummy.

[MalcolmTucker]

Njac coming back at me a bit was kind of townie.

I've really soured on geraintm being town.

VOTE: gera

I'm increasingly feeling like Ger's slot needs resolved either way here.

Their approach from the start has been blatantly anti-town, they're sitting on a wagon that isn't going to pass and again refuse to compromise for the 2nd turn in a row, and they're basically doing nothing to actually solve while deciding which eliminations they'd rather veto anyway. This is all scummy and even if it's NAI for Ger, there's no reason it can't come from the slot as scum. None of their play here is inherently helpful for town.

[MalcolmTucker]

To varying degrees I'd be happy with any of Ger, Galron or Porkens going today, roughly in that order. If the town consolidates on one of them I will change my vote if others are sticking to vanity wagons. That is not fence-sitting at all.

What happened with your case on Kitty? Did you change your mind on that slot?

Also, what do you think about Galron's softclaim?

Forgot about Kitty here but not opposed to an elimination on them. I think it's likely there's one scum in Kitty/Galron for sure. Doesn't seem to be a lot of pressure indicating anyone wants to vote out Kitty right now though.

Can you link me to the softclaim? I constantly miss crumbs when they're thrown.

680

Also, if you think Kitty deserves votes, even if there's not much pressure yet, you should insist. You could start the pressure.

I've said I have other preferred eliminations though, hence why I've not been as vocal about the slot. Been a lot of players looking scummy.

I should add - if Ger comes back town then I think that'd solidify a scumread on Kitty. They've been protective of Ger's slot largely based on meta, conveniently allowing them to ignore Ger's actual play. I've seen Kitty in the past simply push players for looking scummy even if gameplay suggests they're more likely town which gives me a sense there's legs in a partnership here. But Ger is more likely to be eliminated this turn and I think is the better elimination.

[MalcolmTucker]

*if Ger comes back scum sorry

[MalcolmTucker]

being pushed by someone because i am focused on one slot and don't want to go elsehwere..well i can't really do much about that because the person pushing me is the person i have as scum when i know i would flip green.
they helpfully dont mention that the wagon i am sitting on is them

But your wagon on me is going nowhere. You've barely even pushed me or tried to get the wagon to do anything beyond sitting on it. Your case on me, again, is basically you didn't like me agreeing with you once early on in the game because you thought it was brownnosing. You decided I was scum about 4 posts in and haven't rethought that at all since.

Do you accept it's not in any way pro-town to sit on a wagon which won't pass for the 2nd day in a row unless you show a willingness to compromise? Who would you consider voting for that might actually be eliminated?

[MalcolmTucker]

Ger why are you not on NJAC?

i havent really looked at them much, they havent pinged me over the last few days so havent looked.

Do you intend to support a vote on somebody who actually has a chance of being eliminated here? NJAC is the counterwagon to you. If you are town it is fundamentally in your interest to be on this wagon unless you have on alternative because if you are not scum, then from your POV there is a stronger chance of NJAC being scum than you.

[MalcolmTucker]

NJACs ISO is basically 3 things:

1. Do you think XYZ is town? Why?
2. What is your case on XYZ?
3. You didn’t respond to 123, please go back and respond.

This is quintessential scum fluffing. It looks like activity, but it’s not. It looks like it contributes, but it doesn’t. It’s scum playing facilitator.

VOTE: NJAC

This is a huge misrep of my play, and I find it very hypocritical coming from a player

whose contribution has been almost null

, and their posts are basically: I'm bad at this and that, that's scummy, etc., without providing much reasoning.

In a very, very mild defence of Porkens, for all their uncertainty and meddling logic I'd argue they've absolutely had reads this turn. The actual logic behind them isn't particularly solid (their read on me has felt fake) but I feel like this post is a bit overly defensive.

[MalcolmTucker]

Ger not being on the NJAC gives me pause that they just still ultimately be obstructive town as opposed to scum because it's surely in their interest to be on the NJAC wagon at this point even for self-preservation if scum, unless they are confident in their bluffing. Or unless there's an extremely small chance we have nabbed two teammates, which would be impressive but I doubt.

[MalcolmTucker]

NJACs ISO is basically 3 things:

1. Do you think XYZ is town? Why?
2. What is your case on XYZ?
3. You didn’t respond to 123, please go back and respond.

This is quintessential scum fluffing. It looks like activity, but it’s not. It looks like it contributes, but it doesn’t. It’s scum playing facilitator.

VOTE: NJAC

This is a huge misrep of my play, and I find it very hypocritical coming from a player whose contribution has been almost null, and their posts are basically: I'm bad at this and that, that's scummy, etc., without providing much reasoning.

I agree with Porkens here, in terms of how I read your playstyle. When I play scum and I'm trying to fabricate content I feel compelled to just ask people quick questions in succession, and then keep track of people that don't respond to me to have something to post about later. I know town can do this too, it's a vibe I'm getting from your posting.

This is also definitely something I've done as scum when I'm struggling for content and want to look busy.

I think NJAC's gotten busier/more active in their reads but it was a slot I was very much null on before, in a way where they'd not done anything explicitly scummy but neither did they feel like a town player driving the game forward. The idea their increased activity has perhaps come from fears they could be eliminated isn't impossible.

[MalcolmTucker]

Point to 3 posts that aren’t one of the above.

You should do the job if you're genuinely interested in determining my alignment.

My posts in which I talk about the softclaim, my posts in which I state my reads,

even the very first posts in which I first interacted with you

, are examples of posts that don't fall in the categories you mentioned. And no, asking questions, advancing the game and forming reads on other players through interactions is not scummy, so stop misrepping me.

Your first interactions with Porkens are posts which could absolutely come from scum - they allow to appear helpful and communicative with Porkens without actually having to do anything to advance the game, while also looking as if you are concerned for a townie to make sure they know what they're doing, or to gently probe and hint someone could be scum if their responses don't look particularly great.

[MalcolmTucker]

NJACs ISO is basically 3 things:

1. Do you think XYZ is town? Why?
2. What is your case on XYZ?
3. You didn’t respond to 123, please go back and respond.

This is quintessential scum fluffing. It looks like activity, but it’s not. It looks like it contributes, but it doesn’t. It’s scum playing facilitator.

VOTE: NJAC

This is a huge misrep of my play, and I find it very hypocritical coming from a player

whose contribution has been almost null

, and their posts are basically: I'm bad at this and that, that's scummy, etc., without providing much reasoning.

In a very, very mild defence of Porkens, for all their uncertainty and meddling logic I'd argue they've absolutely had reads this turn. The actual logic behind them isn't particularly solid (their read on me has felt fake) but I feel like this post is a bit overly defensive.

Well, I don't have meta to rely on, so my point stands still. And it might sound defensive because we're running out of time and I see a high chance of the wagon on me ending up in another mislim, so I better defend from the case made on me.

On a very brief skim through your ISO there, Porkens is absolutely correct about point three - there's a lot of cases where you're constantly asking people to go back and address something you've asked them. This could be something you always do meta-wise (if you can help me on this one then great) but the defensiveness seems odd to me when one of the three things they've pointed out is a fair and accurate representation of your play. Constantly asking people to go back and address points/questions is something which could come from scum wanting to look meticulous and townie in their approach to the game. And my issue here is I don't think anything in your response to Porkens necessarily refutes what they are saying, but I'll need to take a slightly closer look.

[MalcolmTucker]

NJACs ISO is basically 3 things:

1. Do you think XYZ is town? Why?
2. What is your case on XYZ?
3. You didn’t respond to 123, please go back and respond.

This is quintessential scum fluffing. It looks like activity, but it’s not. It looks like it contributes, but it doesn’t. It’s scum playing facilitator.

VOTE: NJAC

This is a huge misrep of my play, and I find it very hypocritical coming from a player

whose contribution has been almost null

, and their posts are basically: I'm bad at this and that, that's scummy, etc., without providing much reasoning.

In a very, very mild defence of Porkens, for all their uncertainty and meddling logic I'd argue they've absolutely had reads this turn. The actual logic behind them isn't particularly solid (their read on me has felt fake) but I feel like this post is a bit overly defensive.

Well, I don't have meta to rely on, so my point stands still. And it might sound defensive because we're running out of time and I see a high chance of the wagon on me ending up in another mislim, so I better defend from the case made on me.

On a very brief skim through your ISO there, Porkens is absolutely correct about point three - there's a lot of cases where you're constantly asking people to go back and address something you've asked them. This could be something you always do meta-wise (if you can help me on this one then great) but the defensiveness seems odd to me when one of the three things they've pointed out is a fair and accurate representation of your play. Constantly asking people to go back and address points/questions is something which could come from scum wanting to look meticulous and townie in their approach to the game. And my issue here is I don't think anything in your response to Porkens necessarily refutes what they are saying, but I'll need to take a slightly closer look.

To add to this - another quick skim there shows point 1 from Porkens to be completely fair as well.

Again asking questions in itself is not necessarily scum-motivated, it can be useful for communication obviously, but can also be a perfectly useful way for scum to try and catch townies out or get a response before going all-in with a read they're ready to commit on.

[MalcolmTucker]

Where do you think you e advanced the game?

Through my posts: I ask others to explain their cases, to detail their reads, to take stances, etc., so I can try to determine if their intentions are genuine or not, and understand better why they post what they post. It's also useful for others. So that's how I help to advance the game.

My concern here though is that this is all absolutely stuff that can come from scum just as equally as helpful town though. Scum can try to look busy by regularly asking questions and obtaining the thoughts of other townies - after all, it can be a useful way for scum to gauge a town player's mindset. Overall the stuff you're listing there is just NAI to me.

I didn't really get Professor's early push on you for your questions directed at Porkens, for example, because I thought it was probably helpful town, but reading back and reading some of your posts since there's absolutely a pattern where it feels like you're asking a lot of questions and asking for a lot of clarifications without necessarily doing a whole lot.

Your scumread on Ger is one I've agreed with largely but also an easy scumcase for you to make because of Ger's approach, and your other main scumread recently has been Kitty, a slightly more original wagon. From a previous newbie game though I see you referred to Kitty's play as anti-town because of their tendency (a bit like Ger) to sometimes hyperfocus on one particular player and be quite stubborn when it comes to wagons.

My concern here if you're scum is you're building scumcases on players you perceive as anti-town because you see that as a much more viable approach for surviving as scum: after all, if Ger is eliminated then it's hard to blame someone for eliminating them because I see why they could be scum here. But beyond that my concern is I'm perhaps too tunnelled on those slots at the expense of someone like yourself who could be playing a smarter and more subtle scumgame.

[MalcolmTucker]

As a slight counterpoint to my own post above though - I will point of NJAC is still on Kitty's wagon when the best thing for them to do right now would be to move onto Ger's wagon and consolidate. They'd have cover as they already scumread Ger anyway. The fact they've not done this yet makes me wonder if they could be town, or if again there's a bluff here and they were confident town didn't have the numbers to vote them out.

[MalcolmTucker]

Point to 3 posts that aren’t one of the above.

You should do the job if you're genuinely interested in determining my alignment.

My posts in which I talk about the softclaim, my posts in which I state my reads,

even the very first posts in which I first interacted with you

, are examples of posts that don't fall in the categories you mentioned. And no, asking questions, advancing the game and forming reads on other players through interactions is not scummy, so stop misrepping me.

Your first interactions with Porkens are posts which could absolutely come from scum - they allow to appear helpful and communicative with Porkens without actually having to do anything to advance the game, while also looking as if you are concerned for a townie to make sure they know what they're doing, or to gently probe and hint someone could be scum if their responses don't look particularly great.

Yeah I think it could come from scum, I'm not saying the opposite, I was aswering Porkens' question, so what's your point here?

In fact I think it was you who said that those interactions were useful

, and at least for me they were, because I got an idea of what to expect from Porkens and the kind of player I was dealing with.

Yep I've addressed that above. It's not inherently unhelpful but it's an approach which can come from either alignment and it doesn't clear you. What's helpful for town can be useful for scum. I don't know, there was just a slight oddness to your reply to Porkens which pinged me; a bit like you'd settled on Porkens as being indecisive and useless as town because it suited your narrative if scum when - for as much as their pushes lack substance - I don't think they've not necessarily done all that much less than you or a couple of other players when it comes to having reads (and you've definitely had more reads than some players who for me have been blatantly anti-town).

[MalcolmTucker]

Are there any responses you found particularly valuable/useful in informing your eventual reads on players? I could see how you'd argue it's game-advancing in that regard but ultimately I'd argue sometimes a basic "X is scum" is more insightful and can have a bigger long-term impact on the game and where players place their loyalties than questions which don't get answered about - in some cases - relatively minor issues which are easy to miss when players are posting quite regularly. (I'm also aware of the irony of this given my tendency to make big detailed posts).

[MalcolmTucker]

What the fuck?

[MalcolmTucker]

Why the fuck have people even voted - nevermind actually hammer - someone who has claimed an investigative role?

[MalcolmTucker]

Ger refuses to vote all game until someone claims an investigative role. Either just open scum or some of the worst townplay I have seen.

[MalcolmTucker]

And Salsa will need to explain the hammer there after unvoting. Baffling.

[MalcolmTucker]

Salsa's hammer was still...bold, to say the least, but I'm not sure scum actually has to hammer there. Easier to try and ride out the claim (which I was ready to believe for the turn) since Salsa had some town-cred anyway.

It's probably Galron. Simplest solution here. Ger and Porkens look town now.

[MalcolmTucker]

Also to be clear.
I think if it’s 2 wolves alive and not one.
I definitely think Salsa/Gera can be a team and I definitely think Salsa would buss that later.


I don’t think Gera is directly wolfy but I see wolf equity with Salsa.

I'm just not sure Salsa hammers there as scum. Ger still had a decent number of votes and anyone who voted there could wave it off as arguing it was a better vote than someone who had claimed. The hammer was weird to say the least but probably town for me.

[MalcolmTucker]

And,

Malcolm

is gone MIA, like wtf! Both of the supposed!scums are lurking... lmao!

I had a busy Tuesday/Wednesday, catching up.

[MalcolmTucker]

Sorry it’s been a while, Malcolm, can you articulate your townread on Ger?

I mean it's possible Ger bussed on NJAC I guess but I'm not seeing it. I've likely just been wrong there and they're town.

[MalcolmTucker]

The way I'm seeing it, it’s a town win game for 2 scums (if we have 3 scums or 2 scums + 1 traitor, which I find unlikely, then I'm not sure about winning as a town yet).

But town can still loose this game because of & only for town!

Professor

, scum won't nk them. So either we eliminate

Galron

(high chance of flipping scum imo) or me (because I think scum won't kill me either & take me +

Professor

into elo which will lead into town losing) today.

I mean

Malcolm

's reaction towards my hammer is giving me pause to go against them today (+

Galron

has the higher chance to flip scum than them). Before claiming investigator,

NJAC

could discuss it in the scum pt & scum!

Malcolm

could see it... So even if they were frustrated, they didn’t have to show their frustration in the main thread, ig?

Yeah this is a good reason to TR you and makes me feel better about you probably just being town as well. Scum partners would have been frustrated at that point but didn't want to articulate it.

From my POV as town I'd seen a player who claimed a role and who was then shortly hammered afterwards without prior warning or discussion following said claim. Kitty was similarly aggrieved and was town. Obviously it worked out for us but had NJAC's claim been legit it'd have been a massive misfire.

I'd also argue you can just look at my interactions with NJAC beforehand. I was starting to lean scum there after a reassessment. Given the votes had been tight and I'd been on Ger, there's no need for me to start vigorously scumcasing NJAC if we're paired. Sure, bit of light pressure is fine, but no more than that. My push on Ger was reasonable at the time and if I were scum I'd have probably stood an okay chance at making it through D3 because the read looked (and given I'm town was) genuine.

[MalcolmTucker]

Like as I said look at the interactions.
NJAC spewed Galron town.

Not sure I really agree with you on this.

There's some pressure on Galron but it isn't necessarily all that sustained when you read back. It feels like the sort of light push one scum could make against another teammate. Certainly if you think Galron/NJAC can't be paired I'm not sure why you'd vote for me given I largely changed my mind on NJAC before they claimed.

[MalcolmTucker]

Galron-Malcolm ISO made me feel neutral about them being on a team, I see repeated posts and a constant shift in read on Galron from Malcolm's end. His E-2 Galron votepost in 603 feels very cautious.

On Malcolm's end of Malcolm-NJAC he never really committed to a read on NJAC, and had little dialogue with him until the very end of D2, where he started talking to him in a flurry. 1239 and 1232 specifically are all I can see that defends Malcolm when it comes to intent.

NJACs ISO is basically 3 things:

1. Do you think XYZ is town? Why?
2. What is your case on XYZ?
3. You didn’t respond to 123, please go back and respond.

This is quintessential scum fluffing. It looks like activity, but it’s not. It looks like it contributes, but it doesn’t. It’s scum playing facilitator.

VOTE: NJAC

This is a huge misrep of my play, and I find it very hypocritical coming from a player

whose contribution has been almost null

, and their posts are basically: I'm bad at this and that, that's scummy, etc., without providing much reasoning.

In a very, very mild defence of Porkens, for all their uncertainty and meddling logic I'd argue they've absolutely had reads this turn. The actual logic behind them isn't particularly solid (their read on me has felt fake) but I feel like this post is a bit overly defensive.

Scum malcolm is less likely to undermine their partner's push against porkens imo, they'd be more focused on either drawing more people to the ger wagon, while maybe getting some bussing in.

At this point in the convo VC was like:

NJAC (3): ProfessorDrapion, Shiidaji, Porkens
geraintm (3): MalcolmTucker, Galron, salsa
Kitty (1): NJAC
Porkens (1): , KittyTacky
MalcolmTucker (1): geraintm

Unlike EOD1 though, Malcolm never said anything like this wrt the competing NJAC wagon:

Spoiler: Day1

I won't be around at deadline. I don't really think a no-lim is all that great, even my lim would be better, in my opinion. Scum are already probably on the wagon, so it might take a Townie to push it over, that's sad.

Yeah this seems really townie at this point. But I agree an elimination is better than a no lim for info.

If we're right up to the deadline and we need someone to hammer I will.

But would rather leave that job to someone who actually thinks Wayward is scum here, if another person in such a position is around. The fact this wagon hasn't been pushed over yet is quite interesting.

I'm in the same position as Malcolm.

If necessary will hammer.

Are you planning to do so? I will be headed to bed soon so will do in next 15-20 mins if no reply. I'm fine for whoever wants to take it on.

He kind of just left some pro and anti-NJAC posts loose and then exited the thread with his vote on Ger on EOD2 without implying interest in an NJAC hammer if needed. There was still some time in the day left sure, but I feel like town Malcolm might have been more open to voting NJAC there like he was on a town wagon D1.

I'd argue I was pretty townie on NJAC early on - our interactions in D2 came because I was starting to reassess that read. Look at my progression - I increasingly felt NJAC's responses to Porkens were deflecting from the fact Porkens had called out that he'd not done much.

If I just made a general "NJAC could be scum" post then it'd be fair enough to see it as opportunistic, but I was taking a greater in-depth look at why specifically Porkens' case was actually quite good even though NJAC was trying to dismiss it, looking at NJAC's tendency to ask lots of questions and not really say much. There is no reason for me to do this as scum - I was pushing Ger and could have sat on that wagon. As town when I reevaluate someone I'm not just going to suddenly say they are scum, that changing of my mind is going to be gradual because I'm uninformed and will still be uncertain and have doubt.

[MalcolmTucker]

I'm all good if this passes but happy to hold off for Galron to make a final plea/for any final counterarguments.

[MalcolmTucker]

Yeah looking back Professor looks absolutely unaligned from NJAC on D1 there.

Their play here feels pretty townie as well. Salsa's probably not the easiest push for elimination right now but they're clearly going for it with conviction, I don't get the impression they're protecting any potential scum teammates at all.

[MalcolmTucker]

Salsa's play seems cagier this turn but that can potentially come from town under a bit of pressure too when they've had an easy ride most of the game. I still don't think Salsa hammers on teammate NJAC D2, nobody was really suspecting Salsa and I don't think they necessarily had to clutch at the town-cred they wanted, but which they were never really going to get from the hammer anyway due to the timing of it. I'm getting an impression of conviction town there who was willing to push for a risky elimination on the belief the claim was false.

[MalcolmTucker]

Salsa's play seems cagier this turn but that can potentially come from town under a bit of pressure too when they've had an easy ride most of the game. I still don't think Salsa hammers on teammate NJAC D2, nobody was really suspecting Salsa and I don't think they necessarily had to clutch at the town-cred they wanted, but which they were never really going to get from the hammer anyway due to the timing of it. I'm getting an impression of conviction town there who was willing to push for a risky elimination on the belief the claim was false.

I think it was more like they didn’t want anyone to wolf read them period so they voted NJAC cause if they didn’t at least 1 player would wolf read them but when I came into today slamming a hard wolf read on them they had a reaction like “omfg I didn’t want this” kinda feel.


That’s at least the impression I got.

I dunno though, I feel like a last-minute hammer from scum on a teammate is a classic way to end up just drawing suspicion to yourself? I've definitely seen that happen before. Salsa's clever enough to know the risks of hammering there so I don't think they'd have been shocked as scum to see some attention this turn.

[MalcolmTucker]

It looks more and more like Galron and I'm still happy to vote there.

[MalcolmTucker]

Oh wow, was away and come back to see this one is done, well done town.