Mini Normal 2283 - Game Over!

[Aisa]

Hi everyone. I'm looking forward to playing with you all!

VOTE: Solway Firth
Sounds like a chemicals company tbh.

[Aisa]

...and we cannot trust dem chemicals companies not to poison us all in our sleep.

[Aisa]

Il tuo italiano is flawless and you totally get me. Keep sheeping what I do and I think we'll get along great this game.

[Aisa]

I like Eira and Frog for early page 2 townreads.

god i got town. this game is going to be boring

seeing the playerlist this game probably wouldn't be amazingly fun in anyways.
[...]

I was going to say you're towny, too, but scratch that, I guess ;3

[Aisa]

Ooh ok, alright, fine, so:

I like Eira and Frog for early page 2 townreads.

god i got town. this game is going to be boring

seeing the playerlist this game probably wouldn't be amazingly fun in anyways.
[...]

I was going to say you're towny, too, but scratch that, I guess ;3

If the reads are logical based can you explain them, and if it's intuition based can you quote where it started and describe the feeling?

I had similar reasoning for both you and Eira. I liked both these posts because I thought they were uncontrived:

oki >.>

RVS VOTE: Aisa because Aisa-what-she-did-there.[...]

Both have a sort of playfulness and "unseriousness" while not seeming particularly designed to come across as towny to me. Contrast with my personal experience of playing scum, which is to spend lots and lots of time ruminating over the tone of a post. Not much evidence, but I added the "early page 2" qualifier for a reason.

Based on the overnight posting I think I will stand by these early TRs. I tend to townread lots of quick posting, Frog meets that description, and I don't see where the scum agenda is. Hoping for a textbook case of "guy who appears to be scumhunting is, in fact, scumhunting". Eira's latest post is also consistent with what I know of their townplay, and my best guess is that the stream-of-consciousness style post would be kind of hard to fake as scum. Did I pocket them or did they pocket me?

Spoiler: For firebringer

I woudl like to hear more from aisa. Where did that rabbit run of to

I want to hear from aisa, she has to tell me how her day was and give me list of favorite foods.
this will help me sort her

anyone seen a certain bunny around?

Aw, you've missed me? Don't worry, bunny wasn't running away from you. There's this certain physical process that bunnies have to go through every day... it's sort of complex, but I hope you can understand and forgive me for abandoning you for a few hours. This article explains it: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sleep

My sleep was lovely thank you, and my favourite foods are hay and carrots.

[Aisa]

Grib is also a townlean. The reason is that they seem curious and they don't seem like they are trying to convince anyone of anything. I think FB might be town too, but I need some time and space to detach from the attention they've heaped on me overnight.

Above the Line
Firebringer
Frog
Grib
Bellaphant
The Line-------Eiralox, NM, Enchant, Firth, TSQ, BBT
HighPrincess
Aisa
Below the Line

@Elements

, why is Bella above null?

[...]difficulty in trying to keep up because sifting through what is already five pages of posts.[...]

@Erynis

, I know it's easier said than done, but fun fact, you don't have to read everything. If you prefer working with two pages of content you could just read two pages and see what reads you get from that.
Sorry if I'm stating the obvious, but figured it might be helpful for someone in the game to address you directly.

[Aisa]

Aw, you've missed me?

yes,
and im still happy with where my vote is.

Oh no, were hay and carrots a bad choice of favourite foods?

[Aisa]

Ok, maybe you could explain why?

[Aisa]

Aisa is fine and I've found them fairly easy to read as both alignments.

This is intriguing. Where did you see me as scum and what gave me away?

Also, just for fun...

Spoiler: Will you analyse me, Frog?

"Get angry easily" = 1

"Take charge" = 3?

"Make people feel welcome" = 4?

"Like music" = 4

"Like to tidy up" = 2

"Like to visit new places" = 3

"Feel comfortable around people" = 3

"Interested in many things" = 4

"Love order and regularity" = 4

"Am afraid to draw attention to myself" = 2

"Enjoy being part of a large crowd" = 2

"Cheer people up" = 2

"Lose my temper" = 1

"Enjoy the beauty of nature" = 4

"Enjoy thinking about things" = 4? They're all generic qs but this is the most generic of them all

"Cheat to get ahead" = 1??

"Feel desperate" = 2

"Rarely overindulge" = 2

"Easily resist temptations" = 2

"Have a high opinion of myself" = 3

"Waste my time" = 4

"Need a push to get started" = 4

"Have little to contribute" = 1

"Keep my cool" = 5

"Avoid crowds" = 3

"Turn my back on others" = 3?

[Aisa]

[...]
Also what is this

Eira's latest post is also consistent with what I know of their townplay, and my best guess is that the stream-of-consciousness style post would be kind of hard to fake as scum. Did I pocket them or did they pocket me?

Low key buddying. And what even from Eira stream of consciousness couldn't be faked? Do I need to pull it up, because I don't know Eira but i agree that is a "stream of consciousness" I also think it means exactly nothing because their thoughts weren't deep enough to get me to think they were actively engaged high enough for it to be unlikely to come from scum. How couldn't a scum person read the thread and have that stream of consciousness. I don't see it at all. This is saying nothing while trying to say something.

Only thing i like about Aisa is her question to elements on why is bella above null.

why even are ya'll on Asia? Solway Firth is a sagacious wagon, like they havent even posted yet. Element coming in putting Asia under some line, and fire being like..... ultra focused on finding 'the bunny'......

while Asia has felt pretty much wholly green to me after a few one-liners exchanged.

this whole frogster/fire thing is cluttering up this early imo, it all seemed mostly to be i nterpersonal meta and as eira dont meta eira dont read.... much at least. I mean of the two i'd say i'd ay i feel worse on fire..... pretty much for abhorrent mood page 1. then again fire adores n_m so there's hope i gues >.>

SO meh today is a lazy day for me imma play monster train and endless legend. I think my vote's in a pretty good spot tbh........ firth's gotta pitch at least, and enchant. I'll trust Asia for now, no strong feelings on others buuut maybe..... Grib doees feel a bit more green than the mass? Like viewing things with an open yet uninformed mind. So yeah like way later gators

Like this is the "stream of consciousness" aisa says would be hard faked from scum.
And I read it and thought "this person skimmed and didn't think that intensely on posts" that was my take away from the stream of thought I got from reading the internal mindof Eira.

What I'm doing is *high-key buddying, you growlie.

You yourself say you read that post and thought it was low effort. Will you humour me and let me assume it was a low-effort post for a second?
I think the combination of low-effort post + Eira still throws out two or three reads is more consistent with town that scum. Town has nothing to lose by saying "I think X, Y, Z look green". I think it's a scary thing for scum to come into the game and take position so decisively.

Hence, I think your impression that Eira "skimmed and didn't think that intensely on posts" would actually support Eira being town.
Agree/disagree?

Also UNVOTE: from RVS.

[Aisa]

I would appreciate it if you could back that up with words Enchy did you roll scum?

[Aisa]

[...]

I tend to townread lots of quick posting, Frog meets that description, and I don't see where the scum agenda is. Hoping for a textbook case of "guy who appears to be scumhunting is, in fact, scumhunting"

Again. This is superficial and lazy and if you go with your reasoning one first as this person isn't trying to look town, this person is been doing that.

Admitted he wanted to be seen as town in later posts when I questioned him on it

, and you ignore it because "ohh he is scum hunting so he is scumhunting" I am not expecting in depth analysis but I don't expect it to be this basic for aisa from what I remember of you. This is just like let me throw out townreads and justify them later.
[...]

there is a gut feeling i have that ur doing things right now to try to get townread that feels out of character frog.
are u really that interested in getting the game going or what

feels like ur doing and saying stuff to generate conversation rather than believing it in any of it

Yeah I feel like this is all accurate. I think you can probably read me pretty well.

I did miss this the first time around, you're right. I think it's ambiguous though, is Frog admitting he is trying to look town or is he saying he is trying to generate conversation? Frog?

Realistically I probably need to reread Frog (already, sigh haha) to have a stronger argument here if I want to be cooperative, but I'm also wary of overthinking it. Frog is clearly the kind of player who understands vying to get townread, that was probably not fully taken into account in my assessment, but I also don't think that's massively +scum for Frog.

If the people demand it I will say more, otherwise I will leave this discussion here for now.

[...] As for HPE, I scumread her to reasons previously stated. I also don’t like how she voted BBT, and her tone is very off. [...]

What do you dislike about Erynis's vote on BBT? What about its tone is off?

[Aisa]

no u

Grrr. This is not the last you hear from me xx

[Aisa]

I'm reading though and can't think of anything useful to say.

@Elements

, why is Bella above null?

*shrug*

Aah :O
Not townpoints. BBT has also asked you to talk to them about your reads.
VOTE: Elements

I am also officially Confuzzled on Frog and think it would be good to see them address some of the points / questions people have brought up.

[Aisa]

I was going to say you're towny, too, but scratch that, I guess ;3

This is probably the real point to towneead them though because they're trying to sort you here I think

I read that as a joke from Aisa? Aisa, can you confirm?

The sentiment of a page 1 townlean was real, but yes, it was a joke. Not really any solving intent in that quote.

[Aisa]

I did register that Frog's interpretation was incorrect, but townies get stuff wrong all the time, no? If anything it made me want to TR him because it seemed like the kind of slightly odd reasoning that townies sometimes have.

I've since done a quick Frog meta check and I agree they are more LAMISTy than their completed town game I checked, and I think that's concerning. Also from their scum game I clearly haven't given them enough credit and they are capable of looking like they're doing things. PLUS now that I reread Grib's post and Frog's ISO I agree the amount of posts he has without a logical process seemingly backing them is also worrying, so, yeah, back in the nullbin.

Frog scum game: viewtopic.php?f=2&t=88987
Frog town game: viewtopic.php?f=2&t=89682

I should note I haven't done any in-depth study or anything, I just looked at the amount of words and vaguely skimmed a few posts from each game.

[Aisa]

Ah, fair enough. I think I've done before that as both alignments - bigger fights to fight than correcting a true read based on a false premise - but wouldn't blame you for thinking that's scummy and I should probably have corrected it.

[Aisa]

Hahaha. Dat ^, folks, is how you do commitment!!

Now, my reads are not particularly good, so you might wanna not sheep me eventually. We'll still get along, I promise

[Aisa]

[...] @aisa, can I have a link to a scum game?

It's hot off the press!
Public thread: viewtopic.php?f=83&t=89811
PT: viewtopic.php?f=90&t=89813

[Aisa]

I think I'd like to see this actually addressed:

Ok, can you answer me this then. If you're not saying that its alignment indicative, what is your point in pointing it out using a buzz word like "overdefensive" which is frequently associated with scumminess? If you're not saying its scummy it seems an awful lot like well poisoning to me.

What are you trying to accomplish in your questions with Eirolox? Because it seems to me a lot like you're grandstanding with no particular purpose towards discerning alignment.

Even though I get that TSQ is the one who brought up the point first so why wouldn't BBT reply to it etc.

[Aisa]

Thanks BBT ^^
I think TSQ comes out of this looking towny. Tbh I feel them getting a bit of a point. I can also see this reaction from Town!BBT, but I think it's a little scum indicative overall, sorry.

[Aisa]

Thanks BBT ^^
I think TSQ comes out of this looking towny. Tbh I feel them getting a bit of a point. I can also see this reaction from Town!BBT, but I think it's a little scum indicative overall, sorry.

What part of it seems town to you, and what part of his reaction moves the needle closer to scum?

Are you asking why BBT's reaction could be town?

I think Town!BBT, like you, wouldn't necessarily give somebody the benefit of the doubt when pushed for a reason he thinks is bad. I think he'd jump right back onto whoever was pushing him, just like he did here.

And although BBT's initial reaction to TSQ's post looks a bit scummy, I don't think there's any point in trying to divine alignment from the fact he continued not to address TSQ's questions for about a page: I think that's something he would do as either alignment. Basically I don't think what he has posted is wholly inconsistent with him being town, there isn't a "part" of his posting that seems towny specifically.

I think you have your answer.

I didn't even say the defensiveness was AI and anyone who has played games with me will know that I don't think defensiveness is a scum tell whatsoever. I was just surprised that the whole tone of the post was as defensive as it was.

As for what moves the needle towards scum for me, this post is worrying because I also interpreted his earlier "defensive much?" as "I think it is suspicious that Eira is so defensive".

[Aisa]

Oh no scratch that maybe it was TvT. Game hard.

[Aisa]

Ha
haha
Gotta love that what seemingly unites 80% of the game is a scumread on me. I don't know if I should panic, laugh, shrug it off, or all three. Anyway, let me try to explain.

Also, while I would still like to receive my Personality Reading (TM) from Frog, I would like it to be in a spoiler so everyone else can skip it if they are not interested.

Spoiler: BBT's post

i mean I don't know who made you the grand arbiter of post rating, like is that some sorta accolade comes with a crown? and joking? about what? Fire liking NM? And when did frogster TR me for sorting..... i didn't really sort jack skwat thus far, only got my Asia feel, said i feel greenish on grib, and then later the iffy vibes i got from bella and elements, which isn't much tbh, i think bella is a ghost so meh and elements.... tbh hard to read for me atm.

And then you go on to say i said Elements i chasing the bunny?> after I said, in the post you kwouted, that Fire said that?
And fire did say that, and by that allusion i meant fire's numerous callouts and early focus on Asia.... which pinged me tbh, this early it's just weird, some actions perk me up like a gopher out a hole and that's one of 'em. I mentioned elements having Asia beneath the line, which again, pinged me cos what did Asia do that's scummy when elements posted that list?

So i mean i don't mind if u think my post is bad, whatever, i wasn't amalgamated to impress u, Asia feels town and that's that. This early I like to trust my gut, so i'm a happy sheep >.>

Defensive much?

I can give my opinion on whether a post is bad or not and your post was pretty bad. I did misread some of the post though, I missed where you mentioned Fire being focused on Aisa right after you spoke about Elements. This wasn't as much a defence of Elements as it was an accusation of you not reading the game closely (ironically)

Despite all those words you just posted, you also still haven't explained why you feel so strongly that Aisa is town.

The PEdit was not a reference to you, it was a reference to the post that popped up before I posted. That's pretty clear.

I read this again and on what was the 3rd? 4th? reread I finally wasn't trying to write a post, didn't have 5 different tabs open, and could concentrate on taking in the ~vibes~ of the post. And I sort of buy that BBT was just trying to express confusion rather than trying to shade Eira.

It's a close call and I'm unsure but also hey, at least I got that Shea was town out of the whole exchange so at least that's progress in my book.

[Aisa]

Oh no scratch that maybe it was TvT. Game hard.

what?

(This is what I'm responding to with my previous post).

[Aisa]

[case on Aisa]

This case makes a lot of sense. I admit, I skimmed past several of Asia’s posts on the earlier pages and didn’t take the time to properly verify and analyze Aisa’s points.

Maybe you might like to vote me or to ask me some questions?

[Aisa]

Link to FB's whole case on me because that is the subject of this post. This has turned out to be a big rant - sorry. However, I also feel like I'm saying stuff that no-one else has said, so I'm still hitting that submit button.

Spoiler:

I think the combination of low-effort post + Eira still throws out two or three reads is more consistent with town that scum. Town has nothing to lose by saying "I think X, Y, Z look green". I think it's a scary thing for scum to come into the game and take position so decisively.

don't think it wasn't such a decisive stance it couldn't be moved easily without anyone even bothering questioning it. So no, disagree.

I agree it could have been moved easily, "decisively" was probably the wrong word. I don't think this undermines my point that it can be a scary thing to do for many players. Or, to be more precise, maybe it does undermine my point slightly, and maybe my logic is broken, maybe I can't explain my judgment in a way that looks reasonable retroactively, but it is still a real judgment.

I see no sign of you being interested in understanding if this is a read I actually *feel* and *believe in*. I feel like you're more interested in nitpicking my argument and holding me to a higher standard than you are holding yourself. If you're town, I would like to ask you to please stop and consider this.

You criticised my page 1-2 read for being "surface level". What else do you expect? It's not like I presented it as anything different.

You said my argument was shallow and did the "I expected better quality from you" thing. Hey, I mean, maybe you're right and there's some sort of difference from my usual play that I cannot perceive. But I actually feel like I am the same Aisa as ever, and behind the quick-and-dirty "I tend to townread lots of quick posting" I did stop, reassess, and decide that I still wanted to stand by that tell.

This is just like let me throw out townreads and justify them later.

Note how the tone is shading, but, even assuming I did what I am accused of, is that scum indicative? If so what am I trying to accomplish?

This is saying nothing while trying to say something.

Hard disagree (with love). I stated reads and stated reasons for having those reads, that gives people plenty to work with.

Also uh, in before this becomes a problem:

[...]
fully expected u to double down in this read.[...]

im chill voting frogster

I actually can't tell if Fire is still sring me from these posts. But it doesn't matter, because I am the one scumcasing Fire now. In Soviet Russia, etc etc

[Aisa]

[...]
I'm also not crazy about the voteswap to TSQ, since it came pretty closely after BBT was leaning into a soft townread on that slot, but that feeling is pretty weak.

I think that's fairly standard for BBT, I wouldn't read much into it.

I can see what bbt was saying though? Tsq kinda jumped on a thing and then was like 'haha you did a thing' when he responded. It felt like siblings more than s v s or s v t. I don't think tsq is scummy for what they did and I feel they believe in it, I still think it's lame and weird.

This is kind of a unique post and I want to townread it.

I realize I'm townreading most of the active posters.

Problem.
[...]

Same and same!

[Aisa]

Did someone say my name? ^^

Either way i am not sure, but pushing Aisa is still my priority

I'm so scared! :c
What can I do to prove my towniness to you?

You criticised my page 1-2 read for being "surface level". What else do you expect? It's not like I presented it as anything different.

You said my argument was shallow and did the "I expected better quality from you" thing. Hey, I mean, maybe you're right and there's some sort of difference from my usual play that I cannot perceive. But I actually feel like I am the same Aisa as ever, and behind the quick-and-dirty "I tend to townread lots of quick posting" I did stop, reassess, and decide that I still wanted to stand by that tell.

it wasn't just surface level. it made no sense and when you later justified it. You self contradicted yourself, which isn't scummy itself. It just looks like ur trying to justify a read that made no sense which frankly why as scum do u need to do and u just go with this route of saying its just early feelings.

also theres lots of stuff shea is throwing out about BBT and i skimmed and should address it but tbh im just not that into it.

I don't think I contradicted myself. I genuinely did not notice or remember reading that Frog admitted to trying to look towny (remember it's arguable he said something else, but let's move on) and for you not to acknowledge that feels like you are misrepresenting me a bit.

hawt

Hawtter than Fire though?

[Aisa]

Ok, let me try, maybe I'm a non-self aware innocent child

Reveal myself as innocent child

Also how do you think having your vote on me helps sort me?

[Aisa]

Can someone talk to me about Fire? I think I've seen some townreads thrown around, but I'm not sure I've seen them explained and I feel like that would be helpful. Alternatively, what do people think of my case?

VOTE: Aisa

Talk about this?

5 and 228 both ping me. The meta on Frog is eh at best and comes to a conclusion I disagree with. I wanted to have my vote on someone.

What part of my meta on Frog did you disagree with?

[Aisa]

@Not_Mafia

I'm vengeful, I promise not to venge you if you vote me

Yeah let's just vote me off

Who will you venge after we vote you off?

[Aisa]

[...]
I'm also not crazy about the voteswap to TSQ, since it came pretty closely after BBT was leaning into a soft townread on that slot, but that feeling is pretty weak.

I think that's fairly standard for BBT, I wouldn't read much into it.

This makes me uncomfortable, I'm not sure we've played together enough for you to be able to say that?

IIRC I looked at a couple of your past games while we were playing together in C9++, so I think the impression I have of your play may be from meta'ing you then?

I acknowledge I probably came off like we've played together more than we actually have, though. Apologies.

Can someone talk to me about Fire?

I think Fire is very likely to be town.

Sure, but why?

[Aisa]

Oh no, I also think the firebreather may be town after that round of posting.

Spoiler:

I actually can't tell if Fire is still sring me from these posts. But it doesn't matter, because I am the one scumcasing Fire now. In Soviet Russia, etc etc

Can someone talk to me about Fire? I think I've seen some townreads thrown around, but I'm not sure I've seen them explained and I feel like that would be helpful. Alternatively, what do people think of my case?

if post 420 is a case i fail to see u call me scum in it. It was more of an appeal to me to stop doing what i was doing than calling me scum with inserts of things like i don't understand what your doing or i am not trying to understand.

Ah right, rereading my own post you're right and it didn't come across as much of a scumcase. In its first draft I think it would have been more obviously a case. Then I was like "oh no why am I treating Fire like confirmed scum". So I changed it in an effort to be cooperative.

I don't think I will reply to the rest of your points in gory detail unless someone else wants me to, as I have a feeling we could go back and forth the whole Day. I appreciate you engaging with me though.

Fire's first 3 posts feel extrenely genuine and I have a hard time seeing them coming from scum.

I think this is an understandable thing to townread and I do similar things sometimes, but I disagree those specific posts would have been difficult to make as scum.

[Aisa]

I want to put HPE in my towncore. I agreed with whoever said it was "blowing with the wind" and in some sense it still feels like an apt description in that often Erinys goes with a point someone else brought up first. However, even when all it is doing is arguably sheeping someone else's read it explains its thought process in a way that feels pretty reasonable. The explanations are really helpful and make it sound like its reads are real.

Beyond that, I feel a bit lost. There is a world in which the scumteam is something like Not_Mafia, Enchant, and Solway Firth, and if we are in that world I am still doing alright. If we are not in that world, however, then I am fast running out of people to scumread. Even Elements feels kinda like good vibes, although obviously my brain is telling me I'd be a fool to townlock her for, uh, being generally unable to explain her read on me.

I guess it could be some of BBT/Bella/Frog, and who knows what alignment Fire is, but ugh.

Maybe I'll just chill on the Frog wagon for a while. VOTE: Frogsterking

[Aisa]

BBT: Urrggghhhh this moment probably had to come sooner or later but I was hoping it would be later.

I still think Eiralox is probably town. It did cross my mind yesterday that if they're not then I'm making an absolute fool of myself. I tried looking for a scum game but didn't find any.

Things that might make me think they're scum eventually: admittedly they could be hiding and looking like they're doing things by sheeping a lot of the things I say. However, I feel that this is mitigated by the fact they've produced some independent content e.g. by talking to you by now.

Evidence that makes me think they're town that I haven't commented on yet: the promising to elaborate on a read and then needing at least a couple of real-life days to do is something I've seen them do before as town.

I still feel their play is more consistent with them being town than them being scum.

[Aisa]

Why do you think Enchant is Town, Frogster?

ill throw Elements and Solway townreads too. Why not

You're such an agent of chaos xx

aisa lets have a power session next time ur on. Since no one wants to engage me on my points on you, might as well sort it out and fight. Lets clog up this thread so no one can ignore my gr8 points

lol u wish

[Aisa]

I'd also be interested in Solway's readslist. It doesn't have to be long or thought-out, it doesn't even have to include everyone, it can literally just be a list of gutreads.

Why do you think Enchant is Town, Frogster?

I'm shamelessly and fearlessly abusing meta

What is this meta?

[Aisa]

We seem a bit thinly spread and there are 4 days left. May I suggest we start thinking of a Compromise Wagon? Frogster is my favourite of the existing ones. I'm not really in the mood to do analysis atm, but I promise words tomorrow.

[Aisa]

We seem a bit thinly spread and there are 4 days left. May I suggest we start thinking of a Compromise Wagon? Frogster is my favourite of the existing ones. I'm not really in the mood to do analysis atm, but I promise words tomorrow.

[Aisa]

BBT I'm willing to consider, though I'd probably want to do a reread and maybe find a case that is not your existing case. But I suppose doing all that is my problem, not yours.

[Aisa]

Do you think that means BBT is faking the read on Bella?

[Aisa]

That's a very good explanation of why you're confused.

If we were 1 hour from the deadline I would be willing to wagon, hammer, double-hammer, triple-nuke-hammer anyone including myself. If we were 2 days from the deadline I'd look at like, the top two wagons and pick my favourite. We're 4 days from the deadline which means that realistically we're actually not in *that* much danger, but I wanted to start ramping up the rhetoric around finding a consensus because hopefully, by the time we are at the deadline, we will actually have a decent elimination rather than whatever poor soul we felt like panic-flash-wagoning at the time.

There's also the fact that your pick just happened to be unfortunate because I'd feel bad about voting BBT *right now* specifically because, aside from your case, which I've been over, I couldn't tell you something I find scummy about him, I just find him hard to read and would be scared of townreading him without a lot of evidence. But also maybe I'm still being unfair because if you poke around you'll find that I have more townreads-I'm-not-willing-to-wagon than average this game.

But also, uh, you're right, maybe I'm being a bit too conservative. I don't know if this does anything since maybe I have killed any pretense of pressure with this post and my previous one, but have this as a show of good faith:
VOTE: BBT

I guess BBT said he'll be looking at the game soon, so let's say that I will commit to seeing what he comes up with and decide whether to leave my vote here or not based on what he says ^^

P-edit: oh dear you guys are prolific

[Aisa]

Town game: viewtopic.php?f=51&t=89712

Scum game: viewtopic.php?f=83&t=89811
PT: viewtopic.php?f=90&t=89813

[Aisa]

Solway sorry but can you try to answer any of my questions / invitations to comment on something? ISO me and ctrl+f "Solway" and it should bring up two or three things.

I'm finding it hard to read you as you're usually posting about things that happened quite a while ago, which isn't necessarily your fault, but also yeah

[Aisa]

Oh god I can't read
I'm so sorry

[Aisa]

You were answering my question, I don't know why my brain registered it as something else I will read it now, thank you

[Aisa]

Okay, Solway, it turns out you weren't

actually

answering any of my questions in 576. I was correct about that in 577. Then I went and made a mess of everything with 579 and 580.

But you've since been answering my questions, so we're good!

Also, maybe I'm underestimating how much mafia experience you have, but way to town it up in the space of about 10 minutes.

I will now exile myself from the thread for the night before I make 30 more posts. Bye~

[Aisa]

It's six and that makes E-1

[Aisa]

UNVOTE:

[Aisa]

I am in good mood, so i will answer on one question, before i go to sleep

:heart-eyes:

Life as Enchant sure sounds nice. Can we switch accounts for 24 hours?

State one scumread with at least one sentence of justification?

[Aisa]

...Why would you sheep BBT's read on Bella if they're your top scumread?
VOTE: Solway Firth

[Aisa]

...Why would you sheep BBT's read on Bella if they're your top scumread?
VOTE: Solway Firth

Why is that even remotely scummy

BBT says he has a meta read on Bella

Idc if BBT is my top scumread, if he presents a good case as to why someone is town or scum and I agree with it I’ll sheep it

It’s not like if scum is townreading someone that means their townread is automatically scum

Yes, but I'm not sure why you would think that's a good case?

It may be good from BBT's perspective, but I don't understand how you could form a judgment on the words "Bella was to the point with early reads and that is more likely coming from town!Bella" without being familiar with Bella.

I am in good mood, so i will answer on one question, before i go to sleep

:heart-eyes:

Life as Enchant sure sounds nice. Can we switch accounts for 24 hours?

State one scumread with at least one sentence of justification?

Yes, why not.

I don't think anyone have "practical reason" to scumread someone, as it's day 1. Go prove to me how you have "analysed scum percentages", but i for example don't know how to play d1.

I push you only because i can and want to see how it ends up. And partly because you stole my hammer. And because of unvoting. Don't do it again, or i will not forgive you next time (unless i forget)

Fab.

This feels a bit deflective, it's not an actual answer to my question. I'm not asking for you to have solved the game on Day 1, I just wanna see where your head's at.

I know I stole your hammer and broke your heart, darling, but unfortunately I'm not playing this game to make you happy. Well, I partly am, but I also have other objectives

[Aisa]

I don't really know what to say anymore. I've done the staring at BBT's words and still have no idea what I'm looking at. Maybe solway is trolling, maybe not. It seems like a fine wagon to stay on for a night X_X

I'm going to degrade HPE and Grib to only slight townleans as I've been calling a lot of people town and think I could use a few more options in my PoE to play with.

i mean i like enchant, from the little we've interacted so : P I want an answer for why Enchant is on Asia, but i'm ok if folk aren't as active day ones..... the one doesn't cancel the other, and me liking enchant doesn't mean i'm not holding open the possibility that they're scum.... they're pretty much null to me, but i want them to peek in and change my mind >.>

I ask simply because my understanding of enchant's meta is that when they're not doing anything they're way more likely to be scum.

So it seemed a curious person to say that about in particular.

Not sure this is super important or anything but if you're town something to be aware of.

I do want to point out that I agree with this meta of Enchant and I think they haven't been doing that much. I get the feeling they're trying to give off "haha I'm so fluffy and goofy" vibes, but if you ISO them there really isn't much to indicate they are engaged with the game at all. Wouldn't mind an Enchant wagon. If someone wants one let me know and I will happily join.

[Aisa]

Yeah Grib hasn't actually explained why they "don't want" to vote BBT, just said that TSQ's catch is not strong. Though that's pretty similar to the reason I feel bad voting BBT, so ??? maybe Grib is still town.

Given the little-to-no interest for an Enchant wagon I will abandon that idea for now. By the way, I agree Ench is not necessarily the easiest to read, but I wouldn't have suggested a wagon there if I didn't seriously feel they could be scum. I have no interest in starting a N_M wagon right now, for example.

Coming up next on this ISO: why YOU should consider putting your vote on Solway.

[Aisa]

Why

you

should be voting Solway Firth if you are not doing so already! Great timing, Grib.

Spoiler:

I am fully caught up. My most confident scumread right now is BBT.

Then why aren't you voting there? Why are you ignoring my questions?

I’m pretty sure I responded to your questions, unless I’m missing something. I’m not voting BBT because I don’t scumread BBT enough to vote him.

You said they're you're highest scum read????

Yes. And I’m not voting him. What is wrong with that?

I don’t understand BBT strong townread on Bella. Bella’s ISO is some posts complaining about the game state and a bit fairly good content. I don’t see anything that jumps out as a shining beacon of towniness, Bella’s tone seems neither towny nor scummy and her analysis isn’t very deep.

My town read on Bella comes from playing with Bella an awful lot. She was to the point with early reads and I think this is much more likely to come from town!Bella.

Understood. I’ll sheep this read with low certainty.

1. This apparent contradiction between his scumreading BBT and deciding to sheep the read on Bella. This is an instant classic, a must-include in any Solway case between now and the end of this game.

Spoiler:

I am fully caught up. My most confident scumread right now is BBT.

Then why aren't you voting there? Why are you ignoring my questions?

I’m pretty sure I responded to your questions, unless I’m missing something. I’m not voting BBT because I don’t scumread BBT enough to vote him.

You said they're you're highest scum read????

Yes. And I’m not voting him. What is wrong with that?

...Why would you sheep BBT's read on Bella if they're your top scumread?
VOTE: Solway Firth

Why is that even remotely scummy

BBT says he has a meta read on Bella

Idc if BBT is my top scumread, if he presents a good case as to why someone is town or scum and I agree with it I’ll sheep it

It’s not like if scum is townreading someone that means their townread is automatically scum

2. This "what's scummy about this?" reaction seems scum-indicative to me. If Solway is Town, there is some chance he has an actual thought process behind the questioned posts and that he decides the make that thought process explicit when asked about it. We're not in that universe, so, yeah.

Spoiler:

I am fully caught up. My most confident scumread right now is BBT.

3. He seems focused on stating and commenting on scumreads. ISO him and you'll see what I mean. I think there may exist a certain brand of not-very-experienced scum player who feels the need to Fake Scumreads and Achieve Miseliminations. This possibility may be supported by his tone in posts such as the quoted one: his tone feels quite controlled, as opposed, to, say, "I think BBT might be scum". ...I feel like I'm reaching a bit here, YMMV.

Spoiler:

I can see what bbt was saying though? Tsq kinda jumped on a thing and then was like 'haha you did a thing' when he responded. It felt like siblings more than s v s or s v t. I don't think tsq is scummy for what they did and I feel they believe in it, I still think it's lame and weird.

If you're scum, consider me pocketed. Again.

I don’t understand BBT strong townread on Bella. Bella’s ISO is some posts complaining about the game state and a bit fairly good content. I don’t see anything that jumps out as a shining beacon of towniness, Bella’s tone seems neither towny nor scummy and her analysis isn’t very deep.

Do you think that means BBT is faking the read on Bella?

Yes, I think that is possible. To elaborate more, when I disagree with someone’s read, that doesn’t make them scum. But here it looks as if BBT is trying to draw a townread on Bella despite her lack of real content.

The posts leading up to his stated sread of BBT seem somewhat uncharitable. I agree there's nothing BBT couldn't have made up in his read on Bella, but a more usual town reaction might be "huh? what is this?" imo. BBT's post specifically reads "consider me pocketed

again

", so I think it would be fairly clear even to someone not familiar with site culture that what's happening here is that two players are familiar with each other. The progression from "BBT is faking this read" to "oh I will sheep this with low certainty" feels, uh, possibly disingenuous.

I could be wrong if this is just Solway's personality, but, uh, that's always how it is I guess. I also think that if Solway is scum they've shown some skill in responding to pressure and answering questions, but this is true of almost everyone in this game, so the bar for what is a convincing, towny response is raised.

Finally, let me drive my point home with a good old meme ^^

Spoiler: Meme

[Aisa]

I'll jump onto aisa though because thats a thing we agree on.

VOTE: Aisa

You should probably consider claiming because if we put you to L-1 enchant will just hammer, so this is L-2 but functionally L-1.

You've failed to consider that both Enchant and Not Mafia (who is another player who likes to hammer things, for those out of the loop) are already on my wagon I'll claim if and when I get to E-1.

I don't want to go down gently. Is there anything you'd like me to comment on?

P-edit: I fully support your Firebringer enemies-to-lovers arc though

The number of times I keep typing Asia and backspacing to fix it smh

I'd pick a different username if I could do it all over again. I'm also cool with being called Asia for the record.

[Aisa]

@TSQ, I think I'll go for these three. Bear in mind POE is the main reason; everyone else has just felt townier to me:

1. Solway. I've written a whole case about him and his responses since don't make me feel like changing my mind, really. To me they feel consistent with scum who just thinks they're caught and is making a token last attempt at explaining a contradiction away.
2. Frog. I guess I've come around to this after half the playerlist has been pointing out that Frog is not necessarily town. I haven't really thought about this slot much because the wagon fizzled out (partly because I moved my vote, rip), but like, he's on my list for tomorrow. I get the feeling he might be lying low.
3. Enchant. He just doesn't seem that engaged in the game. IIRC the most deep analysis he's had today is criticising someone's logic for asking him to explain something. idk, I feel like town!Chant could be doing a bit more even if it's just Day 1.

Maybe swap in BBT or one of the other lower content slots?

@Grib, no, it all works out because I'm also half Chinese

[Aisa]

[...]
What do you think of the following people in addition:

HPE, Grib, Eiralox.

HPE: wouldn't be shocked if it were scum but probably slight townlean. Still for a similar reason to what I stated. They seem kinda focused on explaining their reasoning and thought process and I'm not sure a newer scum player would bother doing all that?

Grib: wouldn't be shocked if they were scum but probably slight townlean. They seem sort of reasonable and level headed, but nothing that would be impossible to fake, I guess. There's also the fact we keep mindmelding, but both times I've previously thought I mindmelded with someone that someone turned out to be scum, so uh, not sure what to do about it

Eira: this still is one of my most confident townreads. Reasoning hasn't really changed. It's kind of a meta read - sorry. The tone fits with what I've seen. Call it *vibes*. I don't think they have much of an agenda, why would they sheep me for most of the day otherwise?
Although this is a good moment to point out that Eira, I don't think continuing to say you'll elaborating on me and then not elaborating is helping either of us, so if you could spare a few moments to do that quick explanation it would be appreciated

You've failed to consider that both Enchant and Not Mafia (who is another player who likes to hammer things, for those out of the loop) are already on my wagon I'll claim if and when I get to E-1.

That's because he's more interested in sussing out your role rather than your alignment.

That did cross my mind, but I remember being really sure that he was town after that discussion with BBT. A read worth reconsidering tomorrow if I live until then, but for now I will just sheep past!Aisa and assume TSQ is town.

[Aisa]

Aisa is town because Eira is scum if anyone is interested

Thanks, BBT. I love this and I hate this xx

Random catch up stuff:

I've looked back at hpe and some of the wishy washyness I fel about its reads might be because of its posting style. Im not seeing what I was. I'm not loving the throwing around of votes but again it might be a style thing.

Re: bbt and lost - I was saying that in that game you collected scum reads for some fairly poor reasons, and you were town. A consensus scum read on you is a really easy place for scum to hide. I personally think you get more readable as either alingment the further we go in the game. You played with klick recently as town and he thought you were scum but by mid game I was like 'no, town'.

Re: enchant, nm and eir
I've never read nm as scum when he's town. I'm not getting that here.
Enchant is a slot I wouldn't want to elim today.
Eir I was scum reading because their posts didn't leave an impact on me, but now they've reached out I feel better.

I think you tr every wagon other than Solway at the moment, is that right? Want to talk to me about why you're not voting Solway yet? Or anything else, for that matter?

[Aisa]

Ah sorry Bella, forgot N_M is in this game and that giving people the opportunity to claim is a thing.

Solway also hasn't really acknowledged the fact that I wrote a whole wall about him. Which may not necessarily be a problem in its own, but something something body of evidence

[Aisa]

Tbf like I have a pool of 'my read changes every time they post ', which does include you, hpe and Eir, (I don't like how's recent posting, you were really pushy about your elims in that scum game, etc) but yeah. I think voting soleay gives us a good shot at some info though, if nothing else.

.I feel like I should be getting more out of hpe's posts in particular.

Fair, I don't really know what to say to that

[Aisa]

Enchant seems a bit townier after that hammer. Crossing my fingers for a scum flip, and frankly pretty excited for a death after the night phase so it's one less person to read.

[Aisa]

Enchant seems a bit townier after that hammer. Crossing my fingers for a scum flip, and frankly pretty excited for a death after the night phase so it's one less person to read.

[Aisa]

Sorry Solway!

HBD to our resident purple orb of horror!

[Aisa]

I don't know if I should panic, laugh, shrug it off, or all three.

These are evergreen words.

Enchant seems a bit townier after that hammer. Crossing my fingers for a scum flip, and frankly pretty excited for a death after the night phase so it's one less person to read.

This aged poorly, too. I suppose at least we don't have to have the "is HPE town?" conversation?

[Aisa]

I remember thinking that Grib vs TSQ at the end of Day 1 was TvT.

[Aisa]

BBT, can you tell me why you think Eira is scum?

[Aisa]

Did you notice they were masons? Is that what this means?

Welp, was vaguely hoping the scum read on TSQ would dissuade a shot there. That sucks.

[Aisa]

Enchant is mech posting, townlocked

[Aisa]

Well done everyone way to be subtle
I was trying to be all suave and sneak in a teeny tiny question worded nicely to avoid arousing BBT's suspicions
Then you two go in and with the FINESSE of a SLEDGEHAMMER vote him, batter him and grill him so much I cannot distinguish him from a piece of zucchini forgotten on the barbecue

*for legal reasons this is a joke

[Aisa]

Not much bandwidth for the game today, so you get these miscellaneous points.

1. Power skimmed over most of Eira/Firebringer.
2. Firebringer looks townier by the day. I don't know that he would be this motivated to power solve the game if he were scum and he keeps showing some depth with his posts.
3. I was so jealous that Shea finally shook FB out of his tunnel on me from the grave when I couldn't do it all of Day 1. But FB is tunnelling me again so it's all good hehe <3
4.

@Frog

could you ISO me and answer my question about what meta you had on Enchant that made you townread him at the time we had that discussion?

[Aisa]

Thanks for the reply Frog.

I'm not really loving Frog and I think this is kind of an underrated wagon atm, so VOTE: frogsterking.

Does anyone wanna talk to me about Enchant?

@bella

, what's your approach towards the game rn? I understand this is a pretty generic question, interpret it as you will

[Aisa]

Maybe I'm overreacting, but if that case on me is the best Tadpole can muster, then I don't feel especially inclined to change my mind. It seems like a really easy shot for scum to take. Frog, do you think you could talk me through a bit? How is making "pockety" posts scum-indicative? How else does my overarching play reflect a scum agenda? Who are my partners?

[...]

No, i am my only townread but i won't kill myself because killing self is wrong guys don't do it

I feel like this is kind of edgy for scum!Enchant. I think if scum Enchant wrote #513 it would just say "No, i am my only townread"

I actually think this is a really sharp observation, but it makes me feel all the more inclined to say Frog is TMIing X_X

[...]
I can talk about Enchant

Also you still alive?

When you want to state a read with justification I'm here

Also, course I'm still alive. You left my wagon, remember? Shall we see who outlives the other just for fun? xx

[Aisa]

I'm here

All hail the holy Miltank
Do you think I'm right to TR Enchant?

[Aisa]

Potentially misremembering because I don't feel like reviewing everyone's posts right now, but I can often be pretty hedgy too, no? What makes my hedging different from Eira's hedging?

[Aisa]

I'm getting a sinking feeling that BBT is town but it's accompanied by a crippling doubt that I cannot read and never will be able to read BBT so uh, fun times

[Aisa]

Yeah, I understand that. I don't think the push on you is very well justified. I think I need to take a closer at your discussion from Day 1 as I've tuned it out a little, maybe I'll do that this evening

[Aisa]

Actually, I'll stop blagging after this, but it seems worth pointing out that

Can you talk about why you so strongly town read Aisa in the early game as opposed to posts that literally came hundreds of posts after you stated your read?

BBT posted this and I don't think you addressed it?

What I mean by "I don't think the push on you is very well justified" is that I personally don't care whether you justify your early town read of me for the purposes of reading you. I'm already pretty far gone down the path of town reading you.

It's possible though that BBT is town and that from his POV you actually keep dodging his original question.

[Aisa]

Well, I don't know, maybe BBT's push on Eira is not very well justified in general either.

I clearly need to stop overthinking things, so bye

[Aisa]

Can you tell me what your reads are aside from BBT when you next get on, Elements?

[Aisa]

Spoiler:

I guess I actually have to do this...

why even are ya'll on Asia?

while Asia has felt pretty much wholly green to me after a few one-liners exchanged.

Early defence of Aisa, strong enough town read to question the wagon and go to bat for her. 'Wholly green' further implies this is a somewhat of a strong read.

I guess this is more or less fair, but I don't think people need strong townreads to question early Day 1 wagons

Spoiler:

I question this in 246 and from there we have;

only got my Asia feel

Asia feels town and that's that. This early I like to trust my gut, so i'm a happy sheep >.>

No explanation. Gut read, a gut read that was so strong you were willing to question her wagon and defend her. Why is this read so strong? Where did it come from?

Early Day 1 wagons are not that difficult to question
usually they're extremely tenuous because, well, early day 1
I think "lmao this wagon is silly" is a completely normal reaction to an early wagon and is not a comment that requires a strong tr on the wagoned person

Spoiler:

i don't care what you think about my posts. when i got reads i wanna expand on, ill expand on 'em, and i'll do so for Asia as a start.

This is you not explaining the Aisa read.

In my last scumgame I definitely made comments like these to beef up my fake cases.

Spoiler:

447 - Somehow messed the quote up so linked the post. Here you say that you don't think you defended Aisa that hard which I kind of agree with. But you did defend her, against a sizeable wagon and that seems too strong for that point of the game for a simple gut read. You then continue to go on and say that, actually, your Aisa read is a strong read despite only being gut and that you understand me questioning the read so you will try to expand further. Note: read still not explained.

It's an early Day 1 wagon, it may be sizeable but it is as fickle as sunny weather in England

From the posts you've quoted so far:
- Eira stated tr on me in 192
- Eira justified early tr in 192 as gut
- In post 447 (~10 pages after their initial read on me) they promise to explain more about why they tr me. I think this is reasonably interpreted as: "I tr Aisa (partly based on evidence I have gathered since that early read), I will explain why later". Eira makes no claim anywhere that their read 192 was anything other than gut.

Spoiler:

as i said earlier, i get that i haven't really yet posted aboout why i feel Asia is town.

but i'll try to go over their latest posts after i've gotten to expanding bout Asia.

Still not explained it.

Eira, you still haven't explained your Aisa read

yeah i said i'll go over it. i don;t rush these things so don;t rush me, anyway, i'll be trying to get into it tonight cos like with enchant's recent stunner of a post, your sus and fire camping on Asia i definitely will substantiate my feels, but right now imma take a break.

Same again. You're so reluctant to explain what is apparently a strong read of yours.

I get you've asked me to explain on Asia, i'm coming to that

We're now up to post 760 and still no explanation. I questioned you in 246. Why is this read taking so long?

More of BBT complaining about Eira not explaining the read

Then comes 879, the explanation for the Aisa read but there is a major, major problem with this. I questioned your town read in 246, which means that you cannot use posts 499, 504 and 587 to explain this read because these posts did not exist at the time of questioning.

I want to know why you were so strongly town reading Aisa that you were willing to defend them against a wagon and question the validity of it. You did this defence in 192 which means I need posts from before 192 to explain the read.

I'll wait.

VOTE: Eira

So it feels like your whole case in this post is that
- Eira justified the read they stated in 192 it as "gut", but the read was strong enough that a wordier explanation was warranted
- Eira later "promised" to say more about their read on me. This promise specifically is saying more about their read on me at the time of post 192

Isn't this
a bit of a stretch

[Aisa]

Yeah im tired discussing my feel on you with toffee, what I said d1 still stands so where at first I humored them, now im just going to flat out ignore them if they keep tunneling into me like this.

Theyve been like hyper focused on it d1 and now going all out with the manure barrage that im faking it. In general if someone wants to talk in circles with me I wont oblige them, if bbt isnt satisfied that im sticking with my gutread, too bad. I just havent felt you approaching things with any ulterior motive at all, so idk if this is scum toffee or town toffee pushing me and pushing me on this but imo i've already said my say.

I feel pretty close to locktowning you, so the only reason I see for me to be talking bout my read is if it changes and I really don't feel like thats gonna happen.

I think you can say I'm tunneling you atm, sure. But to say I was 'hyper-focused' on it D1 is a huge stretch. I was, and still am, discussing and engaging multiple things with multiple players so you spewing 'omg stop tunneling me' is absolutely not a thing.

You said yourself you would answer it. Why the change of heart? If people can't see the repositioning from Eira here then I don't know what else I can say.

Describing it as a "change of heart" is kind of inaccurate no matter what world you believe we are in. Eira claims they have already answered your question. Either
- Eira has already answered, in which case BBT is clearly shading; or
- Eira claims they have answered, but is being misleading, in which case Eira is "being misleading", not "having a change of heart about answering"

What if Aisa just
sheeped Grib
and we
speed limmed BBT

[Aisa]

I'm definitely not actually advocating a speed lim here, just being loudmouthed. If we miselim we might end up in melo or elo tomorrow, and 4:3 elo / 5:3 melo sounds Very Bad for town so we uh, kinda need to eliminate scum today

[Aisa]

[...]
The posts quoted are not just showing Eira not explaining the read, but the fact he keeps saying that he will explain the read and doesn't do it. Constant dodging. He also says he understands the suspicion (appeasement?) so I'm a little confused as to how you're not seeing it.
[...]

Oh, it's even worse than you think!
I

townread

Eira partly for refusing to explain the read!

This is a game I modded with Eira in it where they spend Day 2 essentially promising that they will post analysis. The game ends before they get the chance to post much analysis :3
viewtopic.php?t=89796&f=2&st=0&sk=t&sd= ... er_sort=Go

So the "constant dodging" does not inspire me to change my read at all, sorry

Also I need sleep but I will get back to you tomorrow about the rest =)

[Aisa]

Maybe I'm overreacting, but if that case on me is the best Tadpole can muster, then I don't feel especially inclined to change my mind. It seems like a really easy shot for scum to take. Frog, do you think you could talk me through a bit? How is making "pockety" posts scum-indicative? How else does my overarching play reflect a scum agenda? Who are my partners?
[...]

Bonus question @Frog: do you have any

medium

or

high

certainty reads?

[Aisa]

I suppose it has
It's kinda hard to tell what's normal and what's not with a Not Mafia and an Enchant (<3)
What do you think it means?

[Aisa]

I got excited because I saw the "first unread post" pop up and I thought you were Elements replying to my question : (

[Aisa]

Always happy to see you, it's just Elements can provide something you cannot right now

[Aisa]

All of my thoughts feel stupid or useless, but I'm going to force myself to say them in case they are of some use to someone.

--
My current readslist is:

Me - towniest of town
Eira, Grib, Fire - really trust them

Elements, Enchant, Bella - gave me town vibes at some point, but I don't really trust them
Not Mafia - nullness wasteland. While I am on topic, may I humbly suggest a vig shot here if we elim scum today?
BBT, Frog - not inclined to trust them, but "scumleans" would be sending the wrong message
--

So my current townblock is myself, Eira, Grib, and Firebringer. That leaves 6 other players, of which I'm assuming 3 are scum, which isn't bad at all, but I'm having real trouble picking out the 3 scum.

I haven't really tried to sort Bella yet, she may be tractable and being able to tr her would be a huge win, so I might look into her soon.

I like Element's readslist and think it's mildly +town. It's still possibly consistent with Elements bussing her partners fmpov.

Bella and BBT have a lot of partner equity. BBT and Frog also have a lot of partner equity. I was gonna say it could also be Elements + someone, but on closer inspection / consideration she doesn't have very partnery vibes with anyone in my PoE, a good sign.

The way she's just gone back on her read on Frog in the post above, for example - I don't think El is the kind of player who would fake a lot of hedgey reads as scum, so I'm guessing no more than one of [Frog, Elements] is scum.

[Aisa]

[...]
My case is this;

Eira town reads you based on gut (and says the read is strong)
I ask him to explain this read
He refuses to explain it but says he will get to it eventually before continually dodging
When he does finally get around to it he tries to use later posts that didn't exist to justify an early read and that's not how it works
Then he finally gives up because he can't explain it and refuses to engage

I promised a response to this.
That kinda makes sense. Point #3 is the one I have an issue with - "says he will get to it eventually" - I get that it's a stretch to assume Eira didn't promise he would explain the gut read specifically, but *shrug* I believe it.

I don't know if we will ever see eye to eye on this if you are town, so it may be best to leave this discussion there.

[Aisa]

[...]
Aisa, can you talk about those partner equities?

Sure.

Assume you and Frog are scum: you're both in an iffy spot today, it's fairly likely the elim will be between the two of you. In a situation like this I think it's quite natural for scum to bus, your jump onto Frog is perfectly timed to be just that. You were both on the Solway wagon.

You and Bella: if Bella is scum I think she is softly" trying to mess with that townblock I was talking about by saying she feels iffy about me, Grib, Eira, etc. and you're "enabling" her big time. Also, you are kind of a meme and it would be neat if you two were the same alignment.

Also, why doesn't Scum!Elements back track a scum read on Scum!Frog when a wagon picks up

Wait, you're right, that actually doesn't make any sense, I messed up the chain of logic somewhere

[Aisa]

I don't think El is the kind of player who would fake a lot of hedgey reads as scum, so I'm guessing no more than one of [Frog, Elements] is scum.

Change that to "Elements is only scum if Frog is scum", I guess.

[Aisa]

On the subject of Eira, if anyone can tell me a single stance he has this game outside of his town read on Aisa I'll be impressed.

Sure.

Assume you and Frog are scum: you're both in an iffy spot today, it's fairly likely the elim will be between the two of you. In a situation like this I think it's quite natural for scum to bus, your jump onto Frog is perfectly timed to be just that. You were both on the Solway wagon.

You and Bella: if Bella is scum I think she is softly" trying to mess with that townblock I was talking about by saying she feels iffy about me, Grib, Eira, etc. and you're "enabling" her big time. Also, you are kind of a meme and it would be neat if you two were the same alignment.

I disagree that Frog and myself were/are in iffy spots today. I think Frog is *now* in an iffy spot and my vote is a good part of the reason for that. Can you tell me how the timing of my vote is more likely to be a bus?

Who do you think would have been a likely elim had you not voted Frog? I can't see any other wagon as likely to go through, but I suppose I may be biased.

Assuming you and Frog were in an iffy spot, the timing for your vote would have been a typical bus because you would have tested a couple other wagons (me, Eira) first, seen they weren't gaining traction, then resigned yourself to bussing for the towncred.

Can you also tell me how both of us being on the Solway wagon makes us have higher scum equity as well? You're saying a lot of things that don't really make sense here.

That may just be a me thing, whenever I think about Solway I get this vision of you and Frog plotting the mislim in the scum PT, can't explain it better than that.

I can't even make sense of the Bella stuff - how am I enabling her? I'm kind of a meme?

You talk to each other and ask each other for opinions, which makes it look like you may be giving each other a platform and working together to achieve miselims.

*You two* are kind of a meme because you often talk about each other. This isn't a serious point, it would be wholesome if you were scum together, but the RNG speaketh not in those terms.

On the subject of Eira, if anyone can tell me a single stance he has this game outside of his town read on Aisa I'll be impressed.

They supported the Solway wagon.

[Aisa]

Who do you think would have been a likely elim had you not voted Frog? I can't see any other wagon as likely to go through, but I suppose I may be biased.

Assuming you and Frog were in an iffy spot, the timing for your vote would have been a typical bus because you would have tested a couple other wagons (me, Eira) first, seen they weren't gaining traction, then resigned yourself to bussing for the towncred.

The Day is still young, I think it's a bit premature to say the Day was destined to go this way or that.

I tested your wagon? I'm pretty sure I was town reading you and fairly heavily at that as well so that's just not true? Do you think the Frog wagon was inevitable when he had two votes alongside both myself and Bella? Because that's when I voted him.
[...]

I mean that Frog tested my wagon.

I admit I see Bella possibly going through as the elimination and that Frog became a lot more likely as a result of you and Bella voting there. I almost want to reflexively push back that you could still be bussing for a reason or another.

Also, the whole point of post 1140 is to float some random ideas I had and maybe have a discussion, I won't be able to defend all of the ideas in that post to a high standard.

They supported the Solway wagon.

VOTE: Solway

** This is -1 **

Yeah I'm not feeling this VT claim, something major is off in Sol's tone these past few posts. I'll be trying my best to be back in 5 hours, hectic morning here.

Can you show me his support before he joined the wagon with this post?

No, because admittedly I don't remember them offering much prior support. You wondered about any stances Eira had except their town read of me and I told you about one, that's all. I'm not going to argue it's not an

opportunistic

stance, because it could be.

[Aisa]

UNVOTE:
Just want the floaty purple orb to have had a good birthday celebration, come back from V/LA, and figure out who is scum so I can sheep them tbh.

This is probably a bad idea, but I just skimmed Bella's ISO and remembered she asked for a scum game of mine to read and I kinda want to town read her for that >.<

[...]

No, because admittedly I don't remember them offering much prior support. You wondered about any stances Eira had except their town read of me and I told you about one, that's all. I'm not going to argue it's not an opportunistic stance, because it could be.

Because they didn't. They opportunistically hopped on a wagon with almost 0 reasoning until the actual post that they voted and prior to that didn't have much of an opinion on Solway at all. You don't see a problem with that?

It is possible to townread people despite them making scummy looking plays.

[Aisa]

I should have done that like 24 hours ago.
There is no change in my read of Frog, I just don't want to risk waking up to a hammer tomorrow.

I don't think the rest of Bella's ISO looks amazing, actually. I remember BBT saying she is more straightforward about her reads as town but she seems really waffly in the ISO.

[Aisa]

[quote="In post 1184, Grib”]
[…]
Since when am I sheep-worthy? By all accounts my Day 1 was terrible in terms of reads. It's hard to be more wrong than "hey what if the scumteam is this VT and two Masons"[/quote]
Haha when you put it that way sheeping you may not be such a good idea after all. It’s just that you said something that implied you were going to look at more slots at some point and I figured I might as well see what you say.

I like Bella for scum too

@aisa, can you throw some more questions at me?

Will that help you read me, or?
Let me see if I find anything else to ask about in your ISO

[Aisa]

Welp, that was a fail, phone posting so I have no faith I will get it right with a second attempt.

@aisa again I was really confused by your scum game, it felt more buddying and hype-y than I expected but then you did something really similar this game And I was back to blank on you. I'm very conscious that I town read 'nice', so I don't want to give you a free pass!

I suppose that’s a recognisable enough description of my play that Bella has probably truly looked at my game!

[Aisa]

I think grib knows the solve is a bit lame? Like I don't massively town read any of those three but that team just screams 'convenient'. I don't think it's sunny for him to suggest it though.

Like, I kinda think there's a scum in the lurker pile, a scum in the big ego posters and a scum in my middle pile. But again, life is never that easy.

@tsq, do you mean the push for solway is a 'lim all lurkers' push generally or just for grib?

This caught my eye when I reread, because it didn’t really match my perception of the game at the time. I’m struggling to explain exactly why, because when I think back I also had doubts on players of all activity levels.

Anyway, tell me a bit more about that? Tell me what parts of Day 2 have been town/scum driven? Who’s your top scum read?

[Aisa]

Current mood is that I just want to vote Frog

[Aisa]

I'm reading, but I'm in no condition to provide critical thinking. I can make vague agreement noises if helpful. I like that Eira post you quoted about Bella for example, good thing to keep in mind.

[Aisa]

I think that's not a real claim...

This is purely an assumption on my part, that NM and Enchant wouldn't play like this if they were on a scumteam together.

Why not? I don't think they're doing awful if they're on a team together!

This said, all roads to me keep leading back to the choice of "Frog or BBT?"

[Aisa]

I think that's not a real claim...

This is purely an assumption on my part, that NM and Enchant wouldn't play like this if they were on a scumteam together.

Why not? I don't think they're doing awful if they're on a team together!

This said, all roads to me keep leading back to the choice of "Frog or BBT?"

I mean, teams like that tend to get chain-limmed after a couple of phases when the other villagers find each other and don't tinfoil too much. I could see them doing it for meme-y reasons but that's about it.

If only we had a town vigilante :V :V :V

Maybe you're not quite appreciating that Enchant and NM play about 90% of their games like this. There are exceptions, but like, if you're expecting them to post a ton of analysis as scum that ain't it.

I think I'll do something with my vote tomorrow morning after I've had some sleep.

[Aisa]

6 hours oh god oh fuck

It’s ok, I will solve this now

@Frogsterking, please claim. I intend to put you at E-1.

Bella, ok, maybe tomorrow then.
Tie-dye growlithe, we can have a small fight tomorrow if that would make you feel better

[Aisa]

Frog already on E-1.

?
6 to eliminate. 2 votes on Frog as of last VC. FB and Grib have voted him since.

[Aisa]

Why is Frog not scum?

[Aisa]

Uhh I guess I’ll hammer whoever, so whoever gets into hammer range should claim
I guess I still vaguely prefer Frog but that seems kind of secondary

[Aisa]

I’ll still move etc
VOTE: Frogsterking

[Aisa]

Did you switch votes for a reason other than Elements asking you to, or?

[Aisa]

Ok
BBT claim I guess
No time like the present

[Aisa]

Tbf Enchant is right
Elements, I’m torn between being annoyed and respecting your play

[Aisa]

VOTE: BBT
Barf

[Aisa]

Yeah that was probably not the way to get what I wanted but oh well

[Aisa]

Frog
BBT is fine, too, I guess I have no right to complain
But I’m in a frogster mood today

[Aisa]

Ahhh I think the vig should shoot for the highest probability of shooting scum

[Aisa]

As opposed to just shooting a lurker or something

[Aisa]

Didn’t you say I and BBT were not partnered yesterday?

[Aisa]

So what’s the reason for thinking I may be scum in the first place?

[Aisa]

Bella, responses to my questions yesterday when you can?

Huh, that’s actually a great shot. Now I don’t have to tinfoil him.

Exactly! I don’t have to worry that Eira’s solve was correct + I don’t have a little daimon following me around whispering that I am scum all the time.

[Aisa]

Thanks BBT ^^
I think TSQ comes out of this looking towny. Tbh I feel them getting a bit of a point. I can also see this reaction from Town!BBT, but I think it's a little scum indicative overall, sorry.

ISO'd you and I suppose that's at least vaguely consistent with the timing of when you first started to say I was scum.
How does that post mean I'm partnered with BBT, though?

[Aisa]

Eira town unless frog scum then I'm not sure

Can you also explain why that is?

[Aisa]

I suggest we not lose sight of the BBT wagon. That was our (my) mistake D1. We should have the numbers to push it through if the Bella and BBT wagons consolidate. I'm pretty sure my wagon is just intended as a distraction to keep BBT alive.

This feels a bit halfhearted tbh. If I sense I'm in genuine danger of going under, I think I usually put up a bit more resistance. My model of Frog is that he'd also put up resistance. Thoughts?

[Aisa]

Thanks BBT ^^
I think TSQ comes out of this looking towny. Tbh I feel them getting a bit of a point. I can also see this reaction from Town!BBT, but I think it's a little scum indicative overall, sorry.

ISO'd you and I suppose that's at least vaguely consistent with the timing of when you first started to say I was scum.
How does that post mean I'm partnered with BBT, though?

I don’t think you’ve answered this.

I don't have the attention span for meta

Eira town unless frog scum then I'm not sure

Can you also explain why that is?

Eira!scum could have easily pushed through a frog!town lim yesterday to give BBT another day

Re: the meta thing, that’s fine, but I’m not sure what you’re quoting it again in relation to.
Re: Eira, sure

[Aisa]

People who think Bella is town, why?

I don’t necessarily think that she is town, but the fact she tried to meta me gives me pause, and I probably shouldn’t be saying this but her soft defense of BBT looks so incriminating in hindsight that I wonder if she would have allowed that as scum.

[Aisa]

I suggest a deal
You unvote Eira
Eira stops calling you elf

[Aisa]

I'll bite, participation may be intermittent

[Aisa]

Misc thoughts:
- Bella is goood at fake townspew if she's scum.
- I'm still thinking about the game in terms of ensuring my townreads don't get eliminated first of all. This is partly because I'm still having difficulty fleshing out the bottom of my PoE and trust this approach to be more robustly good than other approaches. This means that I inherently look at anyone who tries to attack me, Eira, or Grib with suspicion.
- With this in mind, I find Bella's response to me reassuring.
- With this in mind, I feel uneasy about Elements voting me and Grib, but I think there are other reasons to lightly townread her, maybe more on this later.
- Thoughts on NM: I don't think it's a good idea to treat the content of any of their posts as AI. The only things that may be AI about that slot are 1. the frequency of their posts, 2. the interactions with other slots. I want to say that the frequency of their posts is lightly town indicative, but it's not a good idea to trust the slot based on this alone. I haven't thought much about 2.
- Elements, how is Enchant your strongest townread?

VOTE: Elements

Go boil your head

Regardless of your alignment I love this. I completely support this trend of using creative insults if you must insult a slot that is tilting you. Eff off is so out, "go boil your head" is so much funnier and friendlier.

[Aisa]

Yeah, "they got miseliminated in a previous game", while understandable, is ultimately a bad reason to not push someone and I regret not poking it more to see what would happen

Also, "fun fact"
My housemate has come home and he'll want to chat, which means that to avoid an unexplained disappearance for 30 minutes I'm considering not going out of my room. But I'm thirsty, which means that to accomplish the mission I must sneak off to the sink as quietly as possible to get water. I will set off on the quest now, wish me luck

[Aisa]

Earlier today I tried to meta Elements. I was leaning towards a townread and kind of looking for information to support that, but couldn't really find anything super solid.

Elem town games:
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=85772
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=85877

Elem scum games:
viewtopic.php?f=54&t=80648
viewtopic.php?f=54&t=83059

The one thing I've noticed is that she seemed slightly more "solvey" overall as town, and loves mech spec as scum. She's also been more solvey tonight than I've noticed in any of the games I skimmed. I'm not super sure on this one, but I think she may be town.

(Housemate situation: I decided to be a responsible adult and say hi)

[Aisa]

BTW, this volume of posting is fun for one evening but if you guys start doing this every night I will start grumbling ^^

Elements, how is Enchant your strongest townread?

Very relaxed tone and despite being a self declared "idiot as both alignemts" still manages to have strong opinions that I think have made an impact on the game.

Even without Firebringer, I’d say you still aren’t really anyone’s first elim choice.

You have a pretty easygoing vibe that makes it hard to scumread you, imo.

I think that there are certain players who can pull off an easygoing vibe as scum, but I think that the specific kind of spontaneous interaction and gamesolving that Elements has shown tonight is town indicative for a lot of players plain and simple.

Earlier today I tried to meta Elements. I was leaning towards a townread and kind of looking for information to support that, but couldn't really find anything super solid.

Elem town games:
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=85772
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=85877

Elem scum games:
viewtopic.php?f=54&t=80648
viewtopic.php?f=54&t=83059

The one thing I've noticed is that she seemed slightly more "solvey" overall as town, and loves mech spec as scum. She's also been more solvey tonight than I've noticed in any of the games I skimmed. I'm not super sure on this one, but I think she may be town.

(Housemate situation: I decided to be a responsible adult and say hi)

I also haven't played for a couple of years if you want to factor that into it. I've got some off site games including a recent scum one if you want me to link you to that

Yeah, that's one of the reasons I ended up thinking the meta check was a bit of a fool's errand. Feel free to link the games if you want to do the work, but don't expect me to do the reading today, I've had enough of meta for one day haha.

[Aisa]

Elements, how is Enchant your strongest townread?

Very relaxed tone and despite being a self declared "idiot as both alignemts" still manages to have strong opinions that I think have made an impact on the game.

What I meant to say about this was: I think you may be onto something with the tone, but the way I see it he has spent 90% of the game memeing and 10% making sure he puts in a token contribution.

I'm not engaging with the Bella discussion rn because I feel like that's content that's easier to take in on a calm reread with a nice cup of tea.

[Aisa]

This is the first time I’ve seen someone towntell so massively and obviously on Day 3, at least imo. I guess miracles can happen!

[Aisa]

Today is not a good day for big contributions, sorry. I'm guessing with a lower degree of certainty that Enchant is town, still haven't looked into Bella but can do tomorrow.

[Aisa]

This is the first time I’ve seen someone towntell so massively and obviously on Day 3, at least imo. I guess miracles can happen!

?

I’m talking about Elements. I think their recent posting makes them Town.

[Aisa]

[…]
Now with that said, what about you, Grib? What is your playstyle like in the early, mid and late game, and do you often get scum read for your tone as Town?

I’m trying to reread the game
I told myself I would be As Unbiased As Possible, it turns out that is “not very unbiased”.
I can’t help but read this as “How do you do, esteemed fellow townie? Nothing to see here, I am just towning like townies town”.

More once I get to page 10.

[Aisa]

Above the Line
Firebringer
Frog
Grib
Bellaphant
The Line-------Eiralox, NM, Enchant, Firth, TSQ, BBT
HighPrincess
Aisa
Below the Line

I was going to scum case Elements but I think they're reads are tracking. It's interesting that they chose to put Bella above null. I was feeling that earlier but I couldn't really rationalize it.

Town leans:
Fire
Grib
Aisa
Elements

Huh, the nice thing about rereading is that there’s actually lots of skippable stuff. I’m up to page 20, not because I read every single word but because a lot of it is people I believe to be town talking to each other.

Anyway, he “felt” Bella was above null? Don’t know if I buy that.

There’s also some stuff in his iso that gives me pause though, definitely a strong day 1 showing if he’s scum.

[Aisa]

If we elim Frog and he flips scum, have a look at the sequence of posts here, I kinda want to say he is not partners with Enchant
viewtopic.php?p=13531561#p13531561

[Aisa]

VOTE: Frogsterking
I think this is E-2 but I haven’t checked very carefully.
I read to page, like, 45.

- Some of Frog’s posting is pretty ok, but none of it makes me sure that Frog must be town.
- The recent push on Elements… I don’t know. The justification he gives isn’t bad, but for some reason I don’t believe that he believes that elements is scum. Some of his recent reads, like when he’s suspected me and Elements, have felt like he’s a leaf in the wind. He sees one or two scummy posts and immediately convinces himself the author is scum. That doesn’t really track with the general direction this game is taking.

I still wouldn’t put Bella at anything above a slight townlean actually, but her reads and reactions are a lot more like what I would expect from a random villager throughout the game.

Is it to early to ask frog to claim?

I don’t think it is too early to be explicit about him being pretty likely to die today. Now he knows and there’s no excuse for not showing up and claiming when the time comes.

There’s also the fact we may not believe him, as Grib says, but I think there may still be some value to a claim.

[Aisa]

Why i have bad feeling

Talk!

[Aisa]

Ah oops sorry.
I get the spookies sometimes, too, but I think I won't let your spookies make me second guess my read this time.

[Aisa]

In the meantime, I kind of wish Bella/Aisa/Eira would contribute a little bit more this phase. Especially on who they want to eliminate. I know it seems like Frog is a done deal but I think it’s still worth discussing.

I am here now
What are the ok points you think Frog made?

I think Frog is pushing a very specific narrative and I find that scummy.

Spoiler:

Firebringer died last night. He was a

Vanilla Townie

@everyone townreading Elements for D3

I'm assuming that the Fire kill was a failed TPR hunt. If anyone wants to challenge me on that claim then come at me.

Fire was a TPR hunt. I think this is like, a valid theory, but, NKA is inherently WIFOMy. Whoever you think the NK implicates, there is a chance scum made that NK exactly to implicate that person, so when we're assuming the NK was a TPR hunt we're already on shaky foundation, only considering one universe out of several.

Spoiler:

With that in mind, what do you think Elements is trying to accomplish on page 61 with this series of questions:

@Frog, where are your reads at with Aisa and Bella after the last couple of flips?

I had some things to say that are better left unsaid.

Is it time for you to say them yet?

any reason for NM over Frog?

Once we kill the second mafia I’m not opposed to kicking NM out of the game next.

Are you opposed to kicking nm out the game before the second mafia and if so why?

Is it to early to ask frog to claim?

I'm not saying that any of you are stupid for not noticing this because IIRC I was one of the first to trust Elements on D1. I didn't find much reason to suspect Elements on D1 but I'm

high

certainty that Elements is scum based on their D2 and D3 play. On D2 Elements is the best candidate to be a/the busser on BBT and on D3 Elements is trying to narrow down an investigative TPR. For example, in 1518 Elements is trying to figure out whether Grib specifically has an

inno

on NM. That is like...the only point to that question and I don't think that it can be Town motivated.

I can also say that I'm pretty sure (maybe

moderate

certainty) there is a scum roleblocker and I'm

low

certainty that Elements is the scum roleblocker.

Ok, so now we're arguing scum is so desperate to work out if there is an investigative that Elements spent five posts probing for power roles. An investigative which may or may not exist.

Spoiler:

[...]

Frog's entire 'case' on me is that I'm TPR hunting because I've been asking people about their reads. That is literally all you do in mafia. Ask people about their reads. That's ALL there is to do. Frog is trying to push me on the basis of me playing the game.

This is straw manning my argument because

1) that's not my entire point on Elements (Elements BBT bus vote)
2) the questions Elements asked are clearly useful for narrowing down who may have

living

inno reports (1518) and I don't see any solving purpose behind. Also like 1520? I'm pretty sure I'm like lucid and I think Elements is phishing?[...]

2) Personally I see solving intent behind all of Elements's posts.
1) Given this, I don't see "Elements bussed BBT" + "Elements is role phishing" as a very strong case against Elements.

Spoiler:

Disclaimer: I'm going to treat myself as town for this analysis because that takes out a variable and makes this easier for me.

Okay here is what I was looking for earlier. The problem with the VCA Elements has presented is that it doesn't include the impact of their own vote on the wagon movements. I think this disclaimer is an example of lampshading which is NAI (I think?) What's scummy in Elements ISO is the use of VCA to explain their reads because it helps to project the image of being reasonable while not requiring any descriptions for how they feel about given players.

A point which is completely undermined by the fact I actually give reads in separate posts unlike you

...says the active posting scum player to the lurking town slot who accuses them

Look at dat goalpost moving.
Frog: "The post Elements made is LAMISTy. It makes them look busy and gets them out of explaining their reads with actual words."
Elements: "But I give reasons in my other posts. Unlike you."
Frog: "Why are you accusing me of not posting? I am busy"

[Aisa]

I did some Enchant meta research a few days ago, but never got around to writing it up until now.

It turns out during Days 1-2 I was misremembering the Enchant meta tell that I was told about. I thought the meta tell was that Enchant posts less as scum. It turns out that the meta tell is that Enchant sounds kinda lifeless and more dry as scum, a bit like the text equivalent of an empty laugh.

Some Enchy scum games:
viewtopic.php?f=51&t=89712
viewtopic.php?f=51&t=89536
viewtopic.php?f=51&t=89510

Some Enchy town games:
viewtopic.php?f=23&t=89608
viewtopic.php?f=83&t=89965

I should probably acknowledge that Gamma is the one who noticed the tell.

Which meta do people think Enchant's tone is closer to in this game?

[Aisa]

I thought his point that townreading Enchant so strongly is something scum mostly do was pretty funny.

I also thought that "yes because the Fire kill was a TPR hunt. This is a misdirection because at the time the kill was made there was no reason for Elements to believe they would be pushed hard today or that they would need a pocket alive to defend them" was, in all fairness, a logical point.

It is a logical point that demonstrates at least some awareness of the gamestate, but it doesn’t mean that he did not smoke Fire himself. If you’re scum and need to decide the NK, what’s the first thing you do? Consider the pros and cons of killing each slot.

[Aisa]

Yeah uhh it turns out I didn’t read the point before making my post so I thought you were talking about a different post. I wish I could say this is the first time this happened to me.

[Aisa]

Yeah just went and actually read the post and you have a point.
The thing I would say is, it’s not that obvious that Elements would not have been in danger today. Before the flurry of posting today she only had some weak townreads.

Then again, if Elements + Frog decided to kill FB Elements would need to make a hard attempt to town it up, exactly consistent with what’s happened today, so yeah, there is a universe in which they are partners

[Aisa]

I’m a bit iffy about Bella. I reread a bit yesterday, and all the soft defending BBT is really a horrible look, there just isn’t anything to really justify a solid townread.

[Aisa]

I need to go button I’ll read your responses, if any, in a few hours

[Aisa]

nooooooo
Th- the… cognitive dissonance!!
Help

[Aisa]

Ok, just to state the obvious, if someone else has a protective role, they need to counterclaim. There’s also a really cursed universe in which the setup is deliberately misleading and Frog somehow planned for a misleading Doctor claim from Day 1, but I think we just have to cross our fingers and hope we are not in that universe.

UNVOTE:

I need to work, see you guys laterrrr

[Aisa]

Enchant isny claiming vig, are they?

I really don't like aisa's position on me today, btw

No, Frog just Made Assumptions.

Why not?

[Aisa]

;-;
My reads this game
My fragile ego

[Aisa]

Massclaim?

Somebody should figure out if this is a good idea.

I gave it like five minutes of thought and I don't see it hurting massively (I doubt there's like, that much left for Town to claim anyway), so I would be pro massclaim. Let's say I'll demand a popcorn massclaim in 12 hours or so, unless someone tells me not to do it?

Also, summary of current claims:
Frog - Doctor - protected TSQ N1, protected ??? N2.
Bella - Vig (not a full claim) - vigged HPE N1, did not act N2.
Not Mafia - "Mason"

[Aisa]

I'm V/LA for this weekend watching my mets lose to the padres but I think we'd be better off not voting N_M and just letting him do his normal lurk forever and never post anything of relevance shtick for a while, just for old times sakes.

I see I have picked a good avatar for fighting N_M.

Unfortunately I do not want to do that.

Uhhhh what do we reckon of this?

I also have Thoughts balance wise - don't expect them to be anything revolutionary, they're only slightly novel - but probably best hold off until we do massclaim, since it seems like that's happening.

Eira

/NM anyone?

No
No
Nooooo
(As in, I do not want this to be true, but I recognise that given the Hard Realities of today I probably need to reevaluate at some point).

[...]
Aisa’s reaction here is good I think.

What is good about it?

[Aisa]

It was the same as my internal monologue.

Omg stop
I also had the thought that you were still probably town for the same reason
Although I also thought that if anything in this game is in my scumrange, it is those reaction posts, so logically I shouldn't be taking your reaction as AI.

Prodding not_mafia and Frogsterking

Third Prod of Doom for NM. Oof.

This is HPE's only mention of NM.

Ehhhhhhhhhh

Yeah actually I had already checked TSQ and probably HPE's ISOs back when NM claimed mason the first time around, lol. I remember that something at the time led me to conclude that NM probably wasn't Mason, but couldn't remember what it was, and I think you've just found the post.

[Aisa]

Eiraaaa omg to cite Bella, if you are scum I will be sad face. Anyway, I'm taking that post to mean you don't CC any of the claims?

[Aisa]

Wait how does it make him less likely? Because HPE didn’t really mention him at all?

Yes, I would guess that if HPE and NM were masons together, HPE would have talked about that slot a bit more. Although ISOing HPE, it doesn't talk about TSQ that much either, except when it agrees with some of TSQ's point. And maybe the fact that HPE felt the need to say "third prod of doom" means something?

Ugh

[Aisa]

Updated current claims:
Frog - Doctor - protected TSQ N1, protected Enchant N2.
Bella - Vig (not a full claim) - vigged HPE N1, did not act N2.
Not Mafia - Mason

[Aisa]

It's been more than 12 hours and I don't think anyone has complained, so I'm going to start that massclaim. I think it will be useful to force everyone to lock in a claim, even if everyone ends up claiming VT.

I am a

Vanilla Townie

.

@Eira

, please claim next.

Yet to claim:
Eira
Grib
Elements
Enchant

Claimed (or "claimed"):
Frog - Doctor - protected TSQ N1, protected Enchant N2.
Bella - Vig (not a full claim) - vigged HPE N1, did not act N2.
Not Mafia - Mason
Aisa - Vanilla Townie

[Aisa]

I promise more thinking after work, I think I needed a full day to recover from Frog's claim yesterday

[Aisa]

It is just Enchant to claim.

Sorry if this has been answered - Elements, how do you propose that Frog is scum if no one else is claiming doctor and the Masons were Macho?

[Aisa]

Claims (or "claims"):
Frog - Doctor - protected TSQ N1, protected Enchant N2.
Bella - Complex Vig - vigged HPE N1, did not act N2.
Not Mafia - Mason
Aisa - Vanilla Townie
Elements - Vanilla Townie
Grib - Vanilla Townie
Enchant
Eira

I'm catching up now, will be on and off for a couple hours.

First thought:

I'm a complex vig. I should be able to shoot in the VT claims and have what is basically an inno? Or am I wrong?

This doesn't quite work for the reasons others have pointed out - you could get roleblocked, you could accidentally target the same person Frog is protecting, you could target a Mafia Goon.

However, you should still be able to shoot a VT, and you won't be able to kill them if they are truly a VT. So if your target doesn't die, this doesn't prove their innocence, but if they are a VT, they definitely won't die.

So that people don't have to look it up:

Complex is a role modifier that modifies the way in which an active action is used; it causes the action to fail, as though it were roleblocked, when used against a player who is vanilla. In other words, only power roles will be affected by a Complex action; other players are too simple to be worth your while.

Actually, would you even be able to tell the difference between a roleblocked result and a vanilla result?

Bella would not be able to tell the difference between being roleblocked and her action failing because she targeted a Vanilla.

[Aisa]

Aww look at him, he can't resist not making a serious claim xxx

Also, I just hope everyone is doing ok and I'm sorry to read several of you are kind of having a bad time.

I got a chai latte earlier

Good choice!

[Aisa]

I'm assuming Bella and Frog are Town.

Spoiler: Aisa's Bad Setup Spec

I'm working off the assumption that the open setup Friends and Enemies is balanced (13 players, of which 3 Mafia Goons, 3 Masons, 7 VTs).

Is running Friends and Enemies as a closed setup more or less townsided? Unclear, but I'd say maybe it makes it a smidge more townsided.

Ok, so is (3 Goons) vs (2 Macho Masons, Doc, Complex Vig) more or less townsided? Unclear, but probably around the same ballpark? The Vig can do damage, but if it does it's a confirmable role. The Doctor's existence is also strongly implied by the Macho modifier, lending credence to Doctor claims. The thing is, if there are no Mafia PRs, Complex Vig is kind of an evil role.

What about (2 Goons, Roleblocker) vs (2 Macho Masons, Doc, Complex Vig)? This probably isn't that much more scumsided than the above, given the RB doesn't have much to roleblock.

(2 Goons, Roleblocker) vs (3 Macho Masons, Doc, Complex Vig) seems a bit townsided since it's essentially Friends and Enemies but with extra power for Town?

[Aisa]

I don't really know what to say. It would kinda fit for Eira and NM to be the two scum but if they are not, then I am once again in trouble land. I'll go and reread Eira because I haven't reevaluated that slot in uh, a while.

All of elements / grib / enchant seem towny in some ways, although my brain has just decided to cook up that Elements and Grib could be scum together
;

CSF the true joker, cackling maniacally between VCs.

[Aisa]

I need to at least attempt to push someone before I can sleep, or we'll have a repeat of Day 2, won't we?

I know I said I would look at Eira's posts, but I actually went and looked at that recent scumgame Elements linked. (Why oh why does this Warwick Mafia place have a way to share a thread on MySpace, but not a way to ISO someone?)

Also,

[Aisa]

Sorry about the accidental submit.

This is the Elements scum game I was reading
https://warwick-mafia.freeforums.net/th ... eater-idea

I didn't know what I was going to say about the game yet and I still don't know

[Aisa]

I mean, I guess that if you squint Elements looks a bit less lamisty in this game than in that game, but overall what I got out of it is that Elements is a menace and could still be scum.

Ok, seriously onto Eira now.

Also, WATCH ME CHAINPOST

[Aisa]

Ok, seriously onto Eira now.

Update: Oh no
Oh NO

[Aisa]

...but then the ISO gets exponentially better??

[Aisa]

UNVOTE:

anyway i'mma sleep. i'm still not too sure how i feel on grib, theyve felt green to me most of the game so rn i can't keep my vote here without a case no matter how dodgy i feel theyve been rn, especially with how fast things might move while im away

have fun ya'll ; )

Let's hear the case, if you have it

I still don't know if Eira's posting in this game can be scum, I guess I'm more willing to entertain it than before.

Boi, at least one of you is scum but sure looks towny.

[Aisa]

Bella, do you just think everyone else is towny or?

[Aisa]

In any case, I don't think I'm going to be able to convince you I'm a villager and vice versa. People have complained about how much we post, so I'm going to drop it here. And I do hear you on the HPE thing, so I can drop that too for the time being.

Ah.

The difference is I've been making an active attempt, whereas I personally don't think HPE has. Also nobody has complained about the number of HPE's posts.

And what I meant was, you might not be able to convince me, but your future actions might, or your past actions might after some flips or role reveals. Or someone else's read of you will resonate with me. But you arguing for your own alignment probably isn't going to work. Same thing with me trying to show you that I'm town.

Oh
If Grib is scum this is genius

[Aisa]

Not Mafia is a fine wagon, I guess
VOTE: Not Mafia

I'm just asking Bella about her reads because conftown can sanity check things and all that.

[Aisa]

Can you explain what you mean by “the scumminess from different slots originated from Grib?”

[Aisa]

Hmmm... ideally this (the Grib case) is the kind of stuff that I would have 5 days, not 6 hours to mull over. But I think I'd like to stay on NM.

Difference being.

NM can be shot.
Grib no.

You specifically think I’m a mafia goon then? If you think I’m scum, why can’t I be a lying power role?

Might be a TMI slip but I’ll let other people evaluate.

I agree the post doesn't really make complete sense, not really inclined to read too much into it, though.

[Aisa]

Like if he isn’t going to claim and Bella knows something, the least she could do is chime in about what NM might be. If she still wants to kill him, then I will take it to mean she doesn’t think he can actually be a Mason.

What makes you think Bella knows something?

[Aisa]

Like if he isn’t going to claim and Bella knows something, the least she could do is chime in about what NM might be. If she still wants to kill him, then I will take it to mean she doesn’t think he can actually be a Mason.

@grib, I got cold feet.

I kicked myself for not just shooting nm..that's the elim I think I want today anyway, honestly

?

Yeah, I guess at least I have to have slightly positive utility in that I don't shoot a claimed pr and at least then I can't kill? I would assume scum only have pr now.

I am so confused as to what's happening, but this post is a thing.

[Aisa]

This is CSF's previous mini normal, somebody go figure out something clever with mod meta
viewtopic.php?p=13331277#p13331277

[Aisa]

Bella, I don't think the reviewer is information we're given.
Accepting your premises, I feel like the only way this game is even remotely balanced with three masons is if some of the Town PRs interfere with each other. Idk

[Aisa]

I don't think they should be exempt, I just can't think of a strategy that would work for getting a claim that someone hasn't already tried.

[Aisa]

Misc points:
1. I appreciate Eira's analysis of NM, however, I don't think it's a good idea to read much into NM's activity level. I (too?) am scared of NM flipping town, but there's not much that concretely indicates they cannot be scum.
2. I don't think Grib voting Enchant right now is particularly useful.
3. I was gonna say something about how many Masons we have, but I don't know anymore

VOTE GRIB

I don't understand why I would do this. Grib can be shot, but so can NM, and if either is scum it's not like we have much info to indicate which of them is/isn't a PR, and as Elements says, roleblocker.

[Aisa]

Threat of death usually works.

If a TPR lets themselves be eliminated instead of claiming, that is called gamethrowing. Maybe he thinks his role is vital to breaking the game, but how can it if Bella isn’t even sure?

I don’t mean to be harsh but from a vanilla perspective, this is completely nonsensical.

It only works if there's actually a willingness to hammer if a claim is not given. You can't just say to me "let's pretend that we're willing to hammer Eira" and I go "ok" out loud in the thread. But gosh, upon consideration, let's try it.

VOTE: Eira

I'm gonna go for a 30 minute walk now.

[Aisa]

There was a longer argument in my head, which was:

I feel very confused right now. I feel like I can't assess whether or not there is likely to be a third Mason. My best judgment is that there isn't, but the two people (Eira and Bella) who are making vague sounds like they know more than they are letting on can't even seem to agree on whether we should elim NM, so who am I to judge the validity of NM's claim?

I don't know what you role is, and maybe after you claim / flip I will regret this, but I think that this general confusion is a bit anti-town, and at this point it may be worth claiming just to stop this confusion, even if you have really valid reasons to not want to claim.

There's also the fact that like, I gave everyone time to object a massclaim and I don't think you did during that time? I get that not everyone is always reading every single post or thinking about the game 24/7, so I didn't want to hold that against you to much, but also fmpov there was a time when you could have said "I don't want to claim, *trust me*" and you didn't, and I think that s town that lets these things slide too often is pretty exploitable and -EV.

Then again, Not Mafia's whole existence is -EV, so maybe that undermines my whole point

[Aisa]

I was going to say: and I guess the simple fact is that I have townread almost everyone in this game at one point or another, so I am forced to re-evaluate *somewhere*.

But maybe I'm taking a shortcut and voting Eira because I like I am "justified" voting there and my brain is taking a shortcut in terms of "who do I feel ok voting rn?" rather than "who is likely to be scum?", like, that is possible.

(In case anyone was wondering, I have had to postpone my walk due to a housemate situation.)

[Aisa]

I'm not not considering it, but I think you're gonna have to cite reasons this time, Elem.

UNVOTE:
If I'm gonna take this position, though, I think I at least owe Eira an unvote.

[Aisa]

Chaos

I think I'm gonna do an unofficial VC then I'm gonna do a wall about Grib.

[Aisa]

Unofficial

VC

Grib [2]: Frogsterking, Enchant
Eiralox [1]: Grib
NM [1]: Elements

Not voting [5]: Bellaphant, Not_Mafia, Eiralox, Frogsterking, Aisa

Please please please shout if this is wrong

[Aisa]

Unofficial

VC

Grib [2]: Frogsterking, Enchant
Eiralox [1]: Grib
NM [1]: Elements

Not voting [4]: Bellaphant, Not_Mafia, Eiralox, Aisa

Good spot

[Aisa]

Housemate situation resolved, so I'm gonna go on a walk instead of writing a wall about Grib. But final thoughts before I disappear for 30 minutes:

- I don't know what is up with Bella, but given Bella's behaviour maybe we can resolve Eira tomorrow?
- NM seems like a decent elim? The best cases we have for them being a Mason are still not great, and if we can't work out NM's alignment today, imagine trying to do it in elo / melo tomorrow.
- But I still don't know if we should go for NM or for an even better wagon, and who the even better wagon would be.

[Aisa]

LET COMPLEX VIG DEAL WITH IT.

THAT'S NOT A BAD IDEA

Roleblocker?

[Aisa]

What if NM is a Mafia Goon? Am I going mad?

[Aisa]

1. We elim today
a) Bella kills town!Not_Mafia, scum kills someone -> 3v2 after 2 town-driven yeets, 1 scum-driven yeet
b) Bella kills scum!Not_Mafia, scum kills someone -> 4v1 happiness
c) Bella doesn't kill Not_Mafia, scum kills someone -> 4v2 after 1 town-driven yeet, 1 scum-driven yeet

2. We no elim today
a) Bella kills town!Not_Mafia, scum kills someone, -> 4v2 after 1 scum-driven yeet, 1 scum-driven yeet
b) Bella kills scum!Not_Mafia, scum kills someone -> 5v1 happiness
c) Bella doesn't kills Not_Mafia, scum kills someone, we elim N_M, scum kills someone -> 3v2 after 1 town-driven yeet, 2 scum-driven yeets

I hope this is correct, brain hurts

[Aisa]

Gosh, that ^ analysis sucks and doesn't help at all

[Aisa]

Also, from the way it sounds, we’re trying to use the vig shot in place of an elim.

Yeah, the thing is, if the outcomes are either that N_M dies to the vig shot, or we elim him tomorrow, then why not just elim him today?

[Aisa]

Also, from the way it sounds, we’re trying to use the vig shot in place of an elim.

Yeah, the thing is, if the outcomes

(of no elimming)

are either that N_M dies to the vig shot, or we elim him tomorrow, then why not just elim him today?

EBWOP

Which is why I think we should eliminate someone today. It might be a bad, random elimination, but (random elimination + Bella's vig shot to place us back into odd numbers) > (no-elimming and letting scum pick off a confirmed townie to get us back into odd numbers), no?

[Aisa]

VOTE: Grib
I'm so sorry if you're town, we live in a mad world
-----

[quote="In post 2007, Aisa"]Unofficial VC

Grib [3]: Frogsterking, Enchant, Aisa
Eiralox [1]: Grib

Not voting [4]: Bellaphant, Not_Mafia, Eiralox, Elements

[Aisa]

Full reasoning:

(Elim someone else, Bella vigs Not_Mafia) > (Elim Not_Mafia, Bella vigs someone else) > (No elim)

- Cannot elim Bella, Frog, N_M
- Maybe we shouldn't elim Eira because of *strange handwaving*
- I'm not gonna elim myself (Aisa)
- Enchant seems town

--> I could do Grib or Elements, Grib has more votes right now

------

Unofficial VC

Grib [3]: Frogsterking, Enchant, Aisa
Eiralox [1]: Grib

Not voting [4]: Bellaphant, Not_Mafia, Eiralox, Elements

[Aisa]

Cannot comprehend that.

Do you disagree with my mech spec?

[Aisa]

It's not that I am happy to kill you off or have any confidence that you flip scum, it's just that I think eliminating is optimal

Ah, I suppose I said that Enchant is townier than you