Mini Normal 2275: Roguelikes - Day 3: Endgame!

[MalcolmTucker]

Hello.

[MalcolmTucker]

For reference can we get some general info from everyone like:
- Timezone
- General Experience
- Prefer playing scum or town, and why

My answers:
+2 - I'm generally very active during the "day" which for me runs from about 2 hours ago as of this post and goes for about 10-12 hours.
I'm fairly experience, and have played 10+ games on this site and play mafia IRL quite often, I haven't played in a while so I might miss a few meta terms.
Prefer playing town, in general the "figuring things out" aspect of the game appeals a lot more than the "being good at deception" part.

UK-based so whatever timezone that is. Generally not at my most active during weekends, more active during the week unless particularly busy.

Not mega-experienced but a decent number of games on the site now.

I won as scum for the first time in the last game I finished and actually probably enjoyed it more than town. I think my enjoyment as town depends on the quality of the game although I do my best to remain properly invested no matter what I'm playing as.

[MalcolmTucker]

Alright, busy weekend, just caught up with the game so far. I think the early back and forth's between Confidently Wrong and Toffee are probably TvT.

Confidently Wrong's approach early on seemed like a harmless comedy bit, and I don't think it's suspicious that they weren't particularly phased about the votes placed on them - not as if they were going to be in any danger of getting eliminated three or four pages into the game. The comedy approach could of course be a useful way to try and avoid suspicion but, of course, FancyPants correctly pointed out they already had the username before they started playing (simple but effective point), and it's likely they were going to do this anyway. Their responses under pressure felt reasonable.

I didn't like the aggressiveness of Toffee's push but said push and their later follow-up vote on CSF makes me feel like they're eager town at the moment trying to make things happen, their approach feels a bit bold for scum so far.

Based on the above FancyPants is my strongest TR so far, well-thought out posts that have been helpful to town.

[MalcolmTucker]

I know I shouldn't have confidence in this, but Malcolm feels super scummy. Does anyone disagree?

Kenny is town.

More votes on Malcolm, please.

I'm not really sure how you deduced I seemed "super scummy" after a grand total of two posts - one of which was me just saying hello, which I pretty much always do regardless of my alignment, and another of which was me giving some helpful info on how I like playing the game/when I tend to be online.

If it was coming from a more active player I'd perhaps be more understanding and forgiving of an early gut-read - but so far you've made a total of six posts, three of which involve you honing in on a player who hadn't done much so far. If you're scum this would be a nice, easy early cop-out approach to the game early on where you're able to appear as if you have a conviction read without having to particularly back it up or face a major challenge for it. Out of interest, what about my early posts made you suspect me?

[MalcolmTucker]

Kenny is town.

More votes on Malcolm, please.

And here is another "X is town" post without any reason. This time it is Shoshin on the giving and not the receiving end.

Mind to share, why you think I am town?

And why voteing Malcolm (except maybe for not posting much)?

I actually kind of like this post. Now Kenny is under pressure the easiest thing for them to do would be to easily accept the town-cred from anyone willing to give it out. Instead they're willing to put some pressure on someone who is backing them.

I thought post 178 was generally reasonable - it's a little bit defensive but town can be defensive as well as mafia, and I've definitely been guilty as town early on of not really having well-formed thoughts and appearing to be very on the fence. What gives me a second pause there is the vote on FancyPants, which feels too defensive for me, but maybe that's because I TR the slot.

[MalcolmTucker]

Hi Shoshin are you town? I'll have much more fun if so

Also Shoshin is probably town but I’ll be able to say for sure after she posts a dozen more times

Realizing CSF is V/LA this weekend takes some of the wind out of my sails. I don’t have any read on Malcolm yet.

I could do VOTE: Lowell

Shoshin is a she, and I’ve played with her a lot. I’m not ready to defend her as definitely town but I see similarities to her town game already. I’ll need a few more posts to get a more confident read

Shoshin is Kenny scum or is that just me

Shoshin why isn’t Kenny’s over-explaining-himself a scumread for you

I don’t see it but I’ll VOTE: Malcolm anyway

If Shoshin is town then I feel like Irrelephant could potentially be scum trying to pocket them a bit going forward.

There's several posts here repeatedly indicating Irrelephant thinks Shoshin is town, based on their past experience together, but we're never given a sense as to why this is beyond what must presumably be a gut-read. But Irrelephant appears to be viewing Shoshin's slot completely uncritically - it's more like they desperately want them to be town more than anything else.

The eventual vote on me is weird in that regard, Irrelephant doesn't particularly suspect me, and doesn't actually see me as scum but...votes for me anyway? This just seems really odd. Why waste time voting for a slot you don't think is mafia purely on the gut-read of a player who has made six posts so far?

[MalcolmTucker]

Here's something we could all do. Give any three reads on any three players you are willing to make public. The consequences of not doing so will be determined by everyone that participates.

I'll start

Cat Scratch Fever - Town (145)
FancyPants - Town (25)
Eiralox - Town (Not answering questions)

I don't particularly have any reads.

post 156 in spoiler below

Spoiler:

Here's something we could all do. Give any three reads on any three players you are willing to make public. The consequences of not doing so will be determined by everyone that participates.

I'll start

Cat Scratch Fever - Town (145)
FancyPants - Town (25)
Eiralox - Town (Not answering questions)

I don't particularly have any reads.

Seen everyone's post? Select a few posts that are most alignment indicative for you now and get yourself a few.

I have read the entire game, and nothing is particularly notable.

I do think that CSF and BBT show a genuine interest in pushing the game forward, rather than a fabricated reason to go after their respective targets.

Now that you mention it, kenny hasn't said anything of substance despite saying many things.

VOTE: kennyk

UNVOTE: Kennyk

I like their recent posting, it feels a lot better than before.

@ Fancy Pants - you've suspected Kenny for being a bit too on the fence/not having any notable reads, do you find it suspect at all that Loftwing is pretty much taking an identical approach, just much more openly?

I guess the fact they're happy to admit they don't have much to say at the moment isn't something self-conscious scum would do, but I disagree with the idea there isn't much to comment on at the moment...there's plenty of content, even if it's early on.

I also think the vote/unvote for Kenny could read as quite opportunistic potentially once Loftwing saw pressure on the slot was starting to die down a bit.

[MalcolmTucker]

But what you posted wasn't relevant. You posted a bunch of stuff but didn't actually give any reads, so the question is this; why post it at all?

I never claimed it to be reads. Just my impressions about things that were relevant in my eyes. Like Irrelephant believing Shoshin is town without giving a reason why.

It was just things that I think are noteworthy. They were and are not enough to make it a read in my eyes.

And btw.: the quoted post doesn't contain a read either. Why did you post it at all?

Kenny is town.

More votes on Malcolm, please.

And here is another "X is town" post without any reason. This time it is Shoshin on the giving and not the receiving end.

Mind to share, why you think I am town?

And why voteing Malcolm (except maybe for not posting much)?

My post wasn't intended to look like I was doing stuff.

Your post is posted under the guise of actually contributing.

No it was not. FancyPants asked me about my thoughts. And I did post those thoughts. They aren't much in regard of reads, but those were the thoughts I have about this game.

it definitely wasn't the fact that he cited kenny's post that happened between then and there that you can freely read, malcom, right.

I'm aware of why they've changed their mind on Kenny, and I don't disagree with what they're necessarily saying since I also don't particularly suspect Kenny right now, but then one of the jobs is scum to convincingly make town believe they're on their side, and this felt like a very easy and convenient switch for Loftwing to make after a few other players had either backed off or offered up a defence of Kenny. The fact they've done this while admitting they have no other reads of note is interesting to me.

[MalcolmTucker]

[a bunch of Irrelephant11 quotes]

If Shoshin is town then I feel like Irrelephant could potentially be scum trying to pocket them a bit going forward.

There's several posts here repeatedly indicating Irrelephant thinks Shoshin is town, based on their past experience together, but we're never given a sense as to why this is beyond what must presumably be a gut-read. But Irrelephant appears to be viewing Shoshin's slot completely uncritically - it's more like they desperately want them to be town more than anything else.

The eventual vote on me is weird in that regard, Irrelephant doesn't particularly suspect me, and doesn't actually see me as scum but...votes for me anyway? This just seems really odd. Why waste time voting for a slot you don't think is mafia purely on the gut-read of a player who has made six posts so far?

I will probably explain better at a later date. For now, I'll say that because of past experience, I treat Shoshin pretty differently than I treat the rest of the playerlist (because I don't think I've played with anyone else).

So if you think I'm playing weirdly when it comes to Shoshin, probably I am

I'm not even sure it's that you're playing "weirdly" though, it's just that you're incredibly willing to hand out a free townread early on without much of a reason for doing so. I understand meta will often come into games and that's fine, but your posts could easily read as an opportunistic attempt to cosy up to Shoshin and get on her side early on if she's town and you're not. Your townblock, for what it's worth, gives me a similar fear...we're not that long into the game, I'm wary to put too much faith and trust in anyone at this stage.

[MalcolmTucker]

I'm caught up. Kenny, Cats, malcolm fine for lynch. fancy begrudgingly town, mala town, irrelephant town, toffee town I guess.

Do you, uh, have any actual reasons for your thoughts?

[MalcolmTucker]

I'm not even sure it's that you're playing "weirdly" though, it's just that you're incredibly willing to hand out a free townread early on without much of a reason for doing so. I understand meta will often come into games and that's fine, but your posts could easily read as an opportunistic attempt to cosy up to Shoshin and get on her side early on if she's town and you're not.

I will probably explain better at a later date.

Your townblock, for what it's worth, gives me a similar fear...we're not that long into the game, I'm wary to put too much faith and trust in anyone at this stage.

This is fair. Does it make you think I'm scum trying to prop up a partner? Or just town who's likely to be wrong? Because, if the latter, it's only dangerous if you think one of my three townreads is scum. Let me know if you think so at any point.
Realistically I don't think we'll manage a consensus 5-6 person townblock with 0 scum. But I do think we can make one with, at most, 1 scum. And that's a pretty valuable potential town tool.

Like I get your paranoia but do you disagree with the concept of a townblock or just that i've picked three names already?

I don't disagree with the idea of a townblock in general, I'm just not too keen on ruling out certain players as mafia early on in D1. I don't particularly scum-read anyone you've put in there so far but we're only a couple of days into the game, ideally nobody should be completely free from pressure.

My gut-feeling right now is one of you/Shoshin could be mafia. Shoshin's push on me was weak and opportunistic, but if they're town and you know they're wrong could be a useful pocket for you, as I've stated. I'm liking your engagement a lot more this page though.

[MalcolmTucker]

I'm just not too keen on ruling out certain players as mafia early on in D1

Oh, well this is a playstyle difference. Ideally I like to mentally have half the playerlist in a townbin pretty early D1, so I can focus on the scummier players. If someone I assume is town suddenly scums it up, I change my reads accordingly, but generally I try to kill paranoia because otherwise D1 you just spin in paranoia circles all day. Then on D2 I re-evaluate based on flips

Nevertheless, I can accommodate you wanting to wait to make a townblock. I'll wait 48 hours and then (spoilers) will probably pick the same names, but this time you'll feel better about it. Sound good?

Oh you can fire ahead and form your own townblock if you wish! Not stopping you, I'm just always inherently wary D1. Like to keep an open mind both on who I suspect and whose play I'm liking. My main reasoning for the latter is good scum want to convince you they're town and so can often do a good job of that early on.

[MalcolmTucker]

good scum want to convince you they're town and so can often do a good job of that early on.

this is true but in my experience the best way to handle this situation is to make reads, use them, and change them later when new information arises (as opposed to not making reads, keeping people in a nebulous nullzone, and being too openminded)

The more I explain my method of play the less confident I feel that I even 100% stand by it.

Also it's not really moving the game forward other than letting me understand you a bit.

Do you have a readslist, yet, Malcolm? we're past page 10 I don't think it's a crazy thing to ask for

I don't think this is a bad thing. As a rule I'm generally a cautious player but try to be fairly analytical and look out for contradictions and changes in people's play, both individually and with others in the game. If I'm struggling to get into it I can sometimes appear like I'm fence-sitting a bit, probably more so when I'm town than scum.

I tend not to do full reads lists in every game because they can sometimes feel quite forced, but if you reckon it'll help can work one up later on tonight.

[MalcolmTucker]

Post 35. Weird virtue-signaling plus scummy wording ("actually probably" isn't how I picture town describing their alignment preferences).

This is a bit of a desperate reach. Unsure if you're scum just honing in on a read without a solid basis for doing so, or tunnelled town.

I was responded to a legit question from another player in the game, as one or two others did as well.

If you look through any of my previous games or my posts in general I can often sit on the fence a bit and use kinda hedgy language. I get deciphering language and how players use it is a key component of mafia but basing a scum read on someone saying "actually probably" is really weak.

[MalcolmTucker]

Why are people voting Lowell? I don't see them being scum here. They haven't left much to be desired.

They've not really done much so far and they're throwing a lot of names out there as possible mafia with some pretty weak reasoning. Kinda feels like a scattergun approach a bit at the moment, but could be honest town just feeling their way into the game.

[MalcolmTucker]

Anyway, a reads list so far.

Confidently Wrong - I think they're probably town. Their reaction to getting some votes early on felt genuine and there wasn't much panic at all. While I've not necessarily agreed with all their reads since then I feel like they're coming from a genuine place. Doesn't feel like a player opportunistically picking sides or trying to force the game in a particular direction to suit their own direction.

Irrelephant - As stated I feel like their interactions with Shoshin so far could be an attempt to pocket. The vote on me despite no suspicion followed by backing off right away didn't sit well. Feel like there's a lot of mechanical posts about what scum would/wouldn't do that can seem helpful but aren't necessarily advancing the game or giving us content.

BBT - Disagreed with their push on Confidently Wrong but felt like overzealous town. Their switch to voting CSF felt a bit bold if they are scum. Think BBT is town just trying to get the game going and feel players out.

FancyPants - Main town-read so far. Well-thought out posts. Solid job at interrogating other players without necessarily tunnelling them.

Frederick - Fairly neutral on this slot so far, boring though that is. No particularly unreasonable pushes, nothing that convinces me they are town yet either though.

Eiralox - Bit of a lack of genuine content here so far. Hard slot to read, kinda jokey, no meta on them to tell whether this is consistent.

CSF - I often find CSF hard to read for some reason and this game is no different. Nothing to make me think they're scum yet but aware they're a very capable player, the type of slot that can blend in well on D1 if scum.

Loftwing - Not sure I like the "I don't have reads" approach. Could quite easily be lazy scum trying to coast by. Especially given the sudden vote and unvote on Kenny. Felt opportunistic, as if they were aware coasting by wasn't going to work.

Lowell - A bit like Loftwing, not much genuine content so far and their reasoning for their suspects felt pretty weak to me.

Kenny - I'm gut-reading Kenny as town at the moment. The wagon on them felt quick and opportunistic. Their response to being suspected felt like townie frustration, albeit the vote on FancyPants gave me pause. I liked them suspecting Shoshin when being given a TR themselves, I'd expect scum under pressure to accept that TR without question.

Shoshin - Their read on me is really poor and feels like they're twisting evidence to suit a conclusion they want more than one that's genuine. Either one of Shoshin/Irrelephant is scum for me, but not together.

Malakittens - Reminds me of the lack game we played together where they were town. Hard player to read. Do need more from them though.

[MalcolmTucker]

Post 35. Weird virtue-signaling plus scummy wording ("actually probably" isn't how I picture town describing their alignment preferences).

What's the virtue signaling? Is it the last sentence?

The whole post.

I really don't get what is "virtue-signally" about it, other than the fact you decided I was scum after two posts, one of which was "hello", and have latched onto that. It's a pretty simple post where I give other players some details I've been asked for with the intention of being helpful.

[MalcolmTucker]

So here are my thoughts about the game so far.

There is Eiralox who voted and changed votes twice very early in the game.

I made a (in my eyes) fun comment about this. I know it is RVS, so those vote changes are very likely a thing of trying to beating around the bush in hope of someone reacting to being voted.

FancyPants tries to push me for this comment. This feels wierd. But maybe it is because they are torn pants (thanks Irrelephant for that pun).

The most fascinating thing about Irrelephant is, that Shoshin is probably town. Not that I think Shoshin is scum, but I don't see how he should have gained the towncred.

ConfidentlyWrongs selfvote in the early RVS is NAI for me. As mentioned by someone else earlier (too lazy to look it up again) this seems to be a humoristic approach (haha).

BlueBloodedToffee pushing CW for the selfvote and then, when the waggon didn't get on track too well, hopping on the CSF waggon seems fishy.

I don't see why CSF deserves the waggon that's now going on.

Everyone else is just a blank card for me right now.

This is a window into what Kenny was thinking, and it shows that they wish to contribute to the gamestate even if they have little to no reads. It highlights what they consider to be important events up to this point, and it would be wise to study it in depth to catch a glimpse of Kenny's pov

Aware it'll feel like we're picking on you Loftwing, and I'm guilty of plenty hedgy, obvious posts myself...but this post from you really feels like it's saying nothing at all. It reads like an attempt to be helpful to town but basically tells us that Kenny is giving us their thoughts with an earlier post...which seems self-explanatory to me.

[MalcolmTucker]

To add - it's also a post that's received plenty of attention, so it's not as if we missed it or anything.

[MalcolmTucker]

Post 35. Weird virtue-signaling plus scummy wording ("actually probably" isn't how I picture town describing their alignment preferences).

What's the virtue signaling? Is it the last sentence?

The whole post.

I really don't get what is "virtue-signally" about it, other than the fact you decided I was scum after two posts, one of which was "hello", and have latched onto that. It's a pretty simple post where I give other players some details I've been asked for with the intention of being helpful.

Didn't you call this post "helpful"? Yet you said nothing helpful at all. To me it looks like you were trying to appear helpful while offering confusing unclear information about your alignment preferences.

It's helpful in that it states when I am available, and also states that I enjoy playing scum. That's useful info potentially because some players, when scum, are less invested and don't enjoy it as much. I'm also clear that if I'm playing a game I'm not enjoying or that I'm not invested in then I tend to disconnect a bit more and I'm typically less active. I really do not understand what your gripe with me here is over this.

[MalcolmTucker]

Anyway, a reads list so far.

Confidently Wrong - I think they're probably town. Their reaction to getting some votes early on felt genuine and there wasn't much panic at all. While I've not necessarily agreed with all their reads since then I feel like they're coming from a genuine place. Doesn't feel like a player opportunistically picking sides or trying to force the game in a particular direction to suit their own direction.

Irrelephant - As stated I feel like their interactions with Shoshin so far could be an attempt to pocket. The vote on me despite no suspicion followed by backing off right away didn't sit well. Feel like there's a lot of mechanical posts about what scum would/wouldn't do that can seem helpful but aren't necessarily advancing the game or giving us content.

BBT - Disagreed with their push on Confidently Wrong but felt like overzealous town. Their switch to voting CSF felt a bit bold if they are scum. Think BBT is town just trying to get the game going and feel players out.

FancyPants - Main town-read so far. Well-thought out posts. Solid job at interrogating other players without necessarily tunnelling them.

Frederick - Fairly neutral on this slot so far, boring though that is. No particularly unreasonable pushes, nothing that convinces me they are town yet either though.

Eiralox - Bit of a lack of genuine content here so far. Hard slot to read, kinda jokey, no meta on them to tell whether this is consistent.

CSF - I often find CSF hard to read for some reason and this game is no different. Nothing to make me think they're scum yet but aware they're a very capable player, the type of slot that can blend in well on D1 if scum.

Loftwing - Not sure I like the "I don't have reads" approach. Could quite easily be lazy scum trying to coast by. Especially given the sudden vote and unvote on Kenny. Felt opportunistic, as if they were aware coasting by wasn't going to work.

Lowell - A bit like Loftwing, not much genuine content so far and their reasoning for their suspects felt pretty weak to me.

Kenny - I'm gut-reading Kenny as town at the moment. The wagon on them felt quick and opportunistic. Their response to being suspected felt like townie frustration, albeit the vote on FancyPants gave me pause. I liked them suspecting Shoshin when being given a TR themselves, I'd expect scum under pressure to accept that TR without question.

Shoshin - Their read on me is really poor and feels like they're twisting evidence to suit a conclusion they want more than one that's genuine. Either one of Shoshin/Irrelephant is scum for me, but not together.

Malakittens - Reminds me of the lack game we played together where they were town. Hard player to read. Do need more from them though.

"Irrelephant - scumlean but not with shoshin
BBT - town
FancyPants - town
Frederick - null
Eiralox - null
CSF - null
Loftwing - null/scumlean?
Lowell - null/scumlean?
Kenny - town (?????)
Shoshin - scumlean but not with irrelephant
Mala - null"

This is a lot of words to say very little. I know I asked for a readslist, but this was p disappointing, especially since I think "Irrelephant is townleaning Shoshin based on meta --> he's definitely pocketing her" doesn't feel like a real read fmpov, though I'm biased

See this is why I'm sometimes wary of readlists. If you're scum I've basically just walked into a trap where you were going to intentionally try to discredit me no matter what I said.

How does it say "very little"? Loftwing is clearly closer to a scum-read than null given any generous interpretation of this. Having three players you think are scum with at least four town-reads in there is not saying nothing at all, especially when I've given reasons for why some players are null. You've also conveniently excluded Confidently Wrong in your own reply list, who I've stated I think is town.

We're a few days into the game, I think everyone should have formed plenty of opinions by now but anyone who says they have a confident read of basically every player participating. I'd much rather be honest and admit areas where I'm blank instead of lying and making up a false read out of nowhere.

[MalcolmTucker]

As an example on the above readslist, Mala has made a total of five posts so far, most of which were incredibly brief. Anyone claiming they have a completely confident read on that slot so far is bluffing or lying. I'm not going to pretend I have a confident view on whether Mala is town/scum just for some cred from a player who might be scum anyway.

[MalcolmTucker]

I'll go first then

FancyPants
BBT, Frederick, Malcolm
Shoshin, Malakittens, Lowell, Eiralox
Confidently Wrong, Cat Scratch Fever --- null
Loftwing
kenny

Hmmm I have too many townreads probably

Looking back at Irrelephant's read-list as well, it's a bizarre criticism to get at me for having null-reads when they're in the exact same boat, with one of those nulls being completely identical. He also admits he probably has too many town-reads as well, which might as well be an admission some of those supposed town-reads should probably be moved down to the null slot.

[MalcolmTucker]

As an example on the above readslist, Mala has made a total of five posts so far, most of which were incredibly brief. Anyone claiming they have a completely confident read on that slot so far is bluffing or lying. I'm not going to pretend I have a confident view on whether Mala is town/scum just for some cred from a player who might be scum anyway.

believe it or not people can make reads on people with under 10 posts that are confident and accurate. i know you have little confidence but if you actually committed to reads more you'd put better pressure on scum with your play. that is to say i find your play matching your town play more than anything.

I have a tendency to be wrong as town though. In the past I've twice been the player with what was essentially the casting vote in a final three and on both occasions I got it wrong. Town get it wrong all the time. I'd rather acknowledge that in my play rather than pretend I'm completely confident at this early stage as to where I am.

I'd also disagree I'm not putting much pressure on anyone either. I'm applying pressure to Irrelephant with some of the above posts and have done so beforehand as well. You can see me questioning Loftwing on the past couple of pages.

[MalcolmTucker]

Not trying to out your alt CW, and you don't have to answer, but have we played before, and would you say your usual style matches how you're approaching this game?

[MalcolmTucker]

*played together, that is

[MalcolmTucker]

I am not trying to antagonize you, MT. You're right, I missed that you townread CW. That does make me feel a bit better. It was not a trap, I'm not suddenly voting you or trying to get you elimmed. If you didn't have many strong reads, though, you could have said as much, or at the very least written a whole lot less. It struck me at first as scum trying to gain townpoints by complying with a townie's request and writing lots of words, though perhaps the fact that we're now arguing means that wasn't really your intent, seeing as I'd be the townie most likely to townread you off complying

When I said I had too many townreads I meant scum has probably slipped into my townpool, btw

I'd rather elaborate on why I null-read someone, even if it's rather basic, instead of just making a basic list. I personally find it much easier for scum to come up with a basic list that makes them look more decisive - in this case I'd have potentially been less likely to attract a negative response had I just groped, say, Frederick and Cat into my townpool, for example, but that would've been dishonest because I don't have a confident read on them yet. Ultimately I only null-read 4/12 players, with the rest either scum/town reads or leans. I don't think that's unreasonable.

[MalcolmTucker]

*grouped, not, err, groped, typos galore tonight

[MalcolmTucker]

lol I grope you as townlean still so don't get your panties in a bunch. You're wrong that me/shoshin as a scum, though. Her push on you that bewildered you is a hallmark of her town game. I'm not at 100% she's town because maybe she got better in the long amount of time since we last played but so far she doesn't seem as uncomfy as I'd expect scum!her to be

Plus, what, her only 5 posts as scum are making an enemy of a townie with a case nobody would listen to?

My concern at the moment is less the rubbish push (I feel like mafia would typically try to build a solid case here generally) and more the fact that it's basically Shoshin's only proper push so far, aside from a little bit of pressure on Loftwing maybe. My suspicion will probably go down a bit if they start considering other options, but if no scum are under threat of elimination at the moment it's not necessarily an awful strategy for one of them to park their vote on a vanity wagon that's going nowhere.

[MalcolmTucker]

Anyway, I'll likely be inactive all of tomorrow, but will be back online on Wednesday.

[MalcolmTucker]

Right, obviously if kenny is scum then it's not true. But if you're right that he's town, etc etc

On the other hand the way kenny's wagon dissipated so fast could mean he's scum and his partners are trying to get a counterwagon going. Both of these theories require work to see if anyone's actions match them. Maybe I'll have time for that in a bit

Kenny's wagon disappeared quickly but it was also formed quite immediately as well. I think it was more just a case that Kenny's responses to suspicion seemed townie enough that people were willing to drop it.

[MalcolmTucker]

Loftwing is town, unvote them and vote scumclaimed lowell

Why Lowell and not Loftwing? Feel like either of them could be scum at the moment, nothing in the past couple of days to change my view on that based on how they have been playing.

[MalcolmTucker]

Interesting Discovery, Frederick.

VOTE: Malakittens
Mala, what are your current thread related ideas? Where is your headspace's location at?

I can't figure out if posts like this from Loftwing are opportunistic or just their playstyle because they've very suddenly hopped onto wagons on a couple of occasions now. I don't disagree with Fredrick giving Mala a bit of a push given their lack of content but their post was hardly what you'd constitute a "discovery" since it's been pointed out several times that Mala hasn't particularly engaged a lot so far.

[MalcolmTucker]

Also to update my reads - was previously null on Fredrick but some pretty solid townplay I'd argue when around. Solid townlean for me at the moment.

[MalcolmTucker]

Kenny's responses to suspicion seemed townie enough that people were willing to drop it.

yeah except nothing he posted was towny so that's where I'm thinking something is off.

Yes, kenny could be town who seems scummy, that's my take-away from fancy's meta case on him. But none of his posts so far ring towny to me. Not a single one.

Even his most recent readslist, his read of me sounds like he copy/pasted your reasoning and then put "townlean" at the end so he wouldn't make an enemy out of me, a talkative townie

My top townread is his one of his top scumreads. He townreads you while I still suspect you as possible scum. He's null on BBT whereas I've still got that slot as town. I'm not sure scum Kenny pushes Fancy Pants at all either because it's clearly not happening and so isn't necessarily a useful way for Kenny to alleviate pressure. I think he's misguided townie in that read.

Again this is where I'm finding you a bit off - you ask for reads lists, people give you fairly detailed lists while admitting areas where you're unsure, and you perceive that as suspect. Part of it feels like scum potentially both mining for useful info and trying to muddy the waters and cast doubt on townies they reckon they can catch up.

[MalcolmTucker]

unvote, vote loftwing

Fine with this. No particular read on loft one way or the other but I’ve done dumber things with less reason.

This again feels quite opportunistic given CW's post earlier on the page where he reckons you're scum and Loftwing is town. Why would you vote for someone you don't have a read on?

[MalcolmTucker]

You should vote someone Malcom.

I'm a very sparse voter but will vote someone soon. Torn between Lowell/Loftwing as obvious choices, both look scummy for similar reasons, Shoshin/Irrelephant my other main scumreads at the moment albeit neither of them seem likely to get voted out at the moment.

[MalcolmTucker]

Should be an obvious point but we do need to be careful with votes over the next couple of days. Kitty won't be around till July 1 and if we lose track it'd be easy for scum to potentially eliminate a townie who racks up some votes by accident while claiming they knew no better.

[MalcolmTucker]

VOTE: Loftwing

Subject to change but time to cast a vote somewhere. Not confident their opportunistic jumping around from wagon to wagon is townie. The vote on Mala felt particularly opportunistic as I said earlier on.

[MalcolmTucker]

I think Eiralox is town from the past couple of pages.

[MalcolmTucker]

Lowell was mad bc he thought malcom would be an easy mislim

Not sure I follow with this. I'd gotten a little bit of attention but the only player who's tried to put any sustained pressure on me has made, like, 13 posts or something. Irrelephant pushed a bit but was clearly on the fence. Lowell could be scum based on their general play but the change of their read on me felt like it could come from town who's read had evolved.

[MalcolmTucker]

I worry some people are confusing Eiralox's abrassive posting style for scum. Not sure scum gets into such a deliberate dogfight with CW here, it's clearly not helped Eiralox and unless they're on a mission to eliminate themselves I fail to see why scum would take such an approach.

Loftwing's vote above is, again, incredibly opportunistic.

[MalcolmTucker]

I

did

say that if you are town I don't mind eliminating you anyway, because I find your posts too confusing, and your thought process impenetrable - so we're never going to be able to effectively work together.

yeah again i'm right "Fancy is confused so want Eira dead." what a farce. In what world do you wanna elim an active player who's forming reads and getting things going over Mala, whose done jack squat, or Loft, who's vapid air?

I'm not feeling good about your reasoning here Pants. You're nearing my scumleans.

Just catching up but I don't like this post at all. Inactive/quiet players should not be given a free ride but simply being active and posting a lot is not a valid argument for avoiding suspicion: good mafia players can win by being active and either choking the gamestate or trying to drive it in a direction beneficial to them.

[MalcolmTucker]

I worry some people are confusing Eiralox's abrassive posting style for scum. Not sure scum gets into such a deliberate dogfight with CW here, it's clearly not helped Eiralox and unless they're on a mission to eliminate themselves I fail to see why scum would take such an approach.

Loftwing's vote above is, again, incredibly opportunistic.

My quarrel with Eiralox isn't an emotional one, but a logical one.

My opportunism is due in part because this is the most effective use of my time here. If I am unable to extract information from Mala because most players do not wish to go that way, then is it not in vain to turn the tides of destiny away from where they wish to go? Is it not more reasonable to instead follow them as far as I am willing to go?

I believe you are missing why I am being opportunistic, and are instead calling it out as if it is a bad thing in it of itself.

This isn't a bad post but feels very, very carefully thought-out as a justification for the vote.

Your options here surely aren't just Eiralox/Mala? You could focus on someone else if you wanted to. My concern is you appear to be seeing potentially viable wagons forming and almost instantly jump on them. I don't feel like you're thinking particularly independently here, which is one of my main issues.

[MalcolmTucker]

Fred I seldom townread ppl. I lean. I feel. Later in game once I have data and a feel for whats what im more likely to put trust in others. Im not going to adress ur posts at all. If yall wanna mob me at this point go for it. Im on mobile when power comes back ill offer deeper insight.on loftwing. As a start ; )

Didn't mind the start of this post, I get not TR'ing players too strongly early on, I'm often the same, but the bit about not addressing Fredrick's posts is incredibly scummy. It's the height of scumminess to the point where it just doubly makes me doubt Eiralox actually being scum, because I'm not sure scum approach the game in a way like this.

[MalcolmTucker]

Fred I seldom townread ppl. I lean. I feel. Later in game once I have data and a feel for whats what im more likely to put trust in others. Im not going to adress ur posts at all. If yall wanna mob me at this point go for it. Im on mobile when power comes back ill offer deeper insight.on loftwing. As a start ; )

Didn't mind the start of this post, I get not TR'ing players too strongly early on, I'm often the same, but the bit about not addressing Fredrick's posts is incredibly scummy. It's the height of scumminess to the point where it just doubly makes me doubt Eiralox actually being scum, because I'm not sure scum approach the game in a way like this.

i was tired bandying words about with people to little effect, i think ive since adressed fred's points, you can ascertain what they think about my response.

Fair, I was very much posting thoughts out loud as I caught up. I'll maintain my stance from before - despite some heavy doubts in the past few pages - that you are likely town.

[MalcolmTucker]

Mala played a bit like this last time I was in a game with them but at least had a flurry of activity at the start. Wouldn't be averse to running up some votes on the slot though to see how they respond, presuming they don't intend to replace-out.

[MalcolmTucker]

They were town last time, I should add, hence why I don't think their play so far is inherently scummy.

[MalcolmTucker]

Struggling for reads a bit at the moment. Feel like the CW/Eiralox stuff is choking the game and probably letting other scum players hide.

CW is almost certainly still town given their play but has gotten a bit fixated on this push and is way too confident in their reads for D1.

Shoshin's posting is more townie than before. Mala strikes me as disinterested town but I'm wary of the slot because they've pretty much said openly they don't plan to engage which could allow them to try and coast by as scum as a legitimate strategy.

Don't feel any better re Loftwing. Feel like the slot is playing a bit more carefully but hasn't reversed my earlier reasons for suspecting scum.

[MalcolmTucker]

I feel like there's ~5 slots whose posting makes little sense to me and are regularly using bad reasons to scumread other slots
And I doubt all three scum are in there, just based on how mafia games usually go
But at least 1, probably 2?

I guess I should figure out who I'm talking about, in full:

loftwing
lowell
kenny
eiralox
~frederick, sorta

I think I also mixed up a couple fred and malcolm posts at one point so those reads feel a little muddled. Only noticing how different they are when ISOing them

What's got you interested in Fredrick? It's a slot I've largely TR'd but he's gotten minimal attention so far and could be scum playing well early doors.

[MalcolmTucker]

Sorry been really busy, going to read the last few pages and catch up.

[MalcolmTucker]

CW could be scum trying to power a miselim through. I think loftwing is a pretty good flip

We should consider making a flip happen sooner rather than later because this weekend is a holiday weekend for everyone in the US and we have about 2.5 days left in this game day, during which the American players might barely post (e.g. me, I'll be hanging with family)

What signs do you see me being scum?

And why is Loftwing a good flip? Over Eira even?

I'm not confident Eiralox is scum, and you seem surprisingly confident. Could be posturing to get a miselim. It's not my #1 theory, but I know you're pretty good at mafia so I can't rule it out. I have no interest in flipping you in the near future though

I'm posting as I catch up and this may have been addressed - but CW (or their various assorted alts) tends to be a player who is very confident and determined once they hone in on a slot. Last time we played together they were saying I had "scumclaimed" and were determined I was scum when that ended up not turning out to be the case.

Of bigger concern to me would be that CW started the game is a very jokey way which largely saw them TR'd, but they've shifted into a style I'd much more typically associate them with as the game gone on. Whether that's just CW dropping their alt gimmick now the game is in full-flow because they sense they can eliminate a townie or not I'm unsure.

[MalcolmTucker]

UNVOTE: Loftwing

Loftwing has offered us nothing. they've been.... openly non-committal. Seeing as it's at -1 im unvoting to give Loft time, some1 might go on and hammer anyway at this point and i don't see the value in that. at least.... try.



but in a twisted way loftwing can still flip town so idk..... will i vote there again? lowell wagon... no. fred? i can totally see scum fred, but the fact that they thoroughly asked me to share my viewpoint then shifted to mala is.... something which makes me wary of mobbing fred 2day.

So loftwing idk i mean i guess my vote can shift back to u at this point, i'm not having options atm. but i wann at least give you time... if u do nothing impressive in the interim well meh.

Unless Eiralox is gambling on Loftwing going out anyway/can rely on the wagon being pushed through by fellow scum, this is an incredibly townie post given Eiralox has been under pressure themselves and has been a possible elimination for the latter half of day one. Even if they don't feel they can vote Loftwing if the slot is town, I don't think there would be any benefit for scum actively leaving the wagon at the moment.

[MalcolmTucker]

Also, can you explain your fascination with Eiralox not voting someone?

And why this fascination was not also applied to Malcolm?

I am generally a very sparse voter in most games, especially early on where I prefer to see how other players react to pushes and analyse the game based on that. Granted, this is obviously something I could do if I were scum, and I doubt I'd change that approach here by voting constantly, but it's consistent with my townplay not to vote a lot.

[MalcolmTucker]

VOTE: Loftwing

welp at least now vc is accu. I see no solving from loftwing. I see no relish for the hunt. The fact that kenny and loft are now voting together should be noted.

Dont expect much more from me today.

This is accurate. I am not currently solving the game, instead riding the waves and seeing where it takes me.

I am not currently solving the game, instead riding the waves and seeing where it takes me.

Behold, a scum.

Is there a problem with not trying too hard, because I am too busy for this game?

Scum are the ones who don't try to solve the game.

Scum are the ones who try to hide this fact, yet here I am, flaying this fact open for all to see.

These posts aren't really making me feel any better about Loftwing to be honest. I don't like the reasoning of "I'm not scum because I'm not pushing very hard", because it looks like said posts are designed to obscure the fact Loftwing is very much trying to convince other posters to leave their wagon by implying it's a bad read to see they're scum. Loftwing says they're too busy to solve at the moment but still ultimately makes a whole bunch of posts anyway. You don't need to have the whole game figured out to make some reads.

[MalcolmTucker]

Malcolm, that was more a question towards Fred than yourself.

What do you make of Lowell saying Eira's unvote was a 'terrible' post?

I think that was more just frustration from Lowell.

Lowell clearly thinks Loftwing is scum given their vote, and Eiralox's post is basically indicating they think Loftwing has been too non-committal and scummy to actually come back as scum, which is logic I often agree with but not in this case. If Lowell's town I think it's genuine annoyance that a slot they reckon is scum could still potentially escape elimination by virtue of being too scummy.

If Loftwing comes back town though it's very much worth revisiting.

[MalcolmTucker]

Malcolm dont get me wrong I can still totally see scum loftwing. Just might be me bein loony but you feel way to certain about alignments in above post. Ur still a townlean for me, just need to voice my instincts I guess.

I'm probably not as certain as that post conveys. I'm never certain about anything, there's always a nagging doubt. I'm usually wary to go for the "easy" elimination in most games D1, and there's an argument that this is an easy lim here, but Loftwing's tone has been indicating scum to me.

[MalcolmTucker]

UNVOTE: Loftwing

Loftwing has offered us nothing. they've been.... openly non-committal. Seeing as it's at -1 im unvoting to give Loft time, some1 might go on and hammer anyway at this point and i don't see the value in that. at least.... try.



but in a twisted way loftwing can still flip town so idk..... will i vote there again? lowell wagon... no. fred? i can totally see scum fred, but the fact that they thoroughly asked me to share my viewpoint then shifted to mala is.... something which makes me wary of mobbing fred 2day.

So loftwing idk i mean i guess my vote can shift back to u at this point, i'm not having options atm. but i wann at least give you time... if u do nothing impressive in the interim well meh.

Unless Eiralox is gambling on Loftwing going out anyway/can rely on the wagon being pushed through by fellow scum, this is an incredibly townie post given Eiralox has been under pressure themselves and has been a possible elimination for the latter half of day one. Even if they don't feel they can vote Loftwing if the slot is town, I don't think there would be any benefit for scum actively leaving the wagon at the moment.

This post seems to exclusively assume loftwing will flip town - why?

It's not, I'm explaining why I don't think Eiralox is scum by reasoning why they wouldn't back off Loftwing if they were.

[MalcolmTucker]

Is there anyone openly opposing the Loftwing wagon except for myself? Lack of counter wagon should also be a concern if true.

There also does seem to be some resistance to forcing the wagon through though as well. Definitely some hesitancy there. Although if Loftwing is town, suppose that could be interesting if scum are perhaps wary to hammer because they feel it's too obvious.

[MalcolmTucker]

UNVOTE: Loftwing

Loftwing has offered us nothing. they've been.... openly non-committal. Seeing as it's at -1 im unvoting to give Loft time, some1 might go on and hammer anyway at this point and i don't see the value in that. at least.... try.



but in a twisted way loftwing can still flip town so idk..... will i vote there again? lowell wagon... no. fred? i can totally see scum fred, but the fact that they thoroughly asked me to share my viewpoint then shifted to mala is.... something which makes me wary of mobbing fred 2day.

So loftwing idk i mean i guess my vote can shift back to u at this point, i'm not having options atm. but i wann at least give you time... if u do nothing impressive in the interim well meh.

Unless Eiralox is gambling on Loftwing going out anyway/can rely on the wagon being pushed through by fellow scum, this is an incredibly townie post given Eiralox has been under pressure themselves and has been a possible elimination for the latter half of day one. Even if they don't feel they can vote Loftwing if the slot is town, I don't think there would be any benefit for scum actively leaving the wagon at the moment.

This post seems to exclusively assume loftwing will flip town - why?

It's not, I'm explaining why I don't think Eiralox is scum by reasoning why they wouldn't back off Loftwing if they were.

You didn’t consider that Eiralox and loftwing were svs

If loftwing flipped scum (which you should be considering giving you’re voting for them), what would you conclude about Eiralox’s alignment

Catching up, but my reasoning here is scum Eiralox wouldn't have voted Loftwing in the first place and would surely try to deflect attention onto another counterwagon altogether.

[MalcolmTucker]

UNVOTE: Loftwing

Trusting this claim.

[MalcolmTucker]

I've not particularly SR'd Fredrick for most of the game (found the slot hard to read initially), but I think BBT is very much town, going to take a proper look at their case on Fredrick and see where I stand.

Lowell's posting hasn't screamed townie at me, but some of their recent responses don't indicate a scum player trying to stay on the good side of town either.

[MalcolmTucker]

I've not particularly SR'd Fredrick for most of the game (found the slot hard to read initially), but I think BBT is very much town, going to take a proper look at their case on Fredrick and see where I stand.

Lowell's posting hasn't screamed townie at me, but some of their recent responses don't indicate a scum player trying to stay on the good side of town either.

Fredrick is town, probably PR, we are NOT voting there.

he has clearly played in a non agenda way do not fucking counterwagon them last second.,

Sorry but I don't like that you're continually saying this, I spotted it on the previous page and didn't mention it there in case it got pulled up by anyone else, but why are you casually indicating that you think someone is a PR here? If you're town then this is surely a terrible strategy if scum haven't clocked on at all yet when Fredrick's not necessarily on the verge of definitely being eliminated.

I think BBT's reasoning for why Fredrick couldn't be scum is pretty solid to be honest - their posting so far hadn't necessarily struck me as such but scum like to hide and trying to blend in with the town is obviously a common strategy. Of Lowell/Fredrick at the moment, I'd prefer a Fredrick elimination personally because I'm not convinced Lowell's posting at the moment is coming from scum. Are there any posts convincing you Fredrick is town here?

[MalcolmTucker]

fuck it
VOTE: Fredrick

I see it now.

If Fredrick comes back scum this could end up looking like a mafia tactic to distance yourself from fellow scum. Not sure how you've gone from accusing me of being indecisive and non-committal to now jumping on the bandwagon yourself in the space of a couple of posts.

[MalcolmTucker]

What's Fred at vote wise? Keen to put my vote there but they should obviously have a chance to respond before we hammer at all.

[MalcolmTucker]

Wow, so Loftwing was scum all along. Instincts were right. That should give us a lot of helpful info, those who properly defended Loftwing will need to be looked at.

[MalcolmTucker]

loftwing/kenny/lowell feels way too easy, but I would also be shocked if it had 0 mafia in it

VOTE: loftwing

all that said, I think loftwing looks great as a scum partner for kenny so I don't mind following fancypants there

I think there's 1, maybe even 2 though that's less likely, in kenny/loftwing/malcolm. So I don't think you've got the whole team

I'm re-reading the interaction between lowell and malcolm and like really don't know what you're referring to as a scumclaim

575 has good points. But on the other hand sometimes scum get defensive and flustered when pressured. Loftwing’s vote is the worst on the wagon so far, for sure, if Eira is town.


@malakittens @shoshin, thoughts on Eiralox ISO?

VOTE: loftwing

CW could be scum trying to power a miselim through. I think loftwing is a pretty good flip

We should consider making a flip happen sooner rather than later because this weekend is a holiday weekend for everyone in the US and we have about 2.5 days left in this game day, during which the American players might barely post (e.g. me, I'll be hanging with family)

I have no time to read the game but will hammer anything. Loftwing is my preference but I’ll help almost any wagon go through.

Idk I’m just checking in and skimming for votes. It’s a holiday weekend. I think loftwing is probscum regardless of PR claim but I haven’t read like 5 pages or so. Just waiting to be told to switch or for people to finish off loftwing

I'd been very wary of Irrelephant D1 but there's strong and constant suspicion of Loftwing here. Pretty much confirmed town now I'd say.

[MalcolmTucker]

Wait i was trolling, loftwing is town

Loftwing is town, unvote them and vote scumclaimed lowell

VOTE: Loftwing

Subject to change but time to cast a vote somewhere. Not confident their opportunistic jumping around from wagon to wagon is townie. The vote on Mala felt particularly opportunistic as I said earlier on.

I think fundamentally the reasons you are presenting for reading people is flawed and not consistent(results wise) in any way.

So I envision it shall be difficult to convince you similarly to the last time we played together.


Jumping around wagon to wagon is not a scum behavior.

post 156 in spoiler below

Spoiler:

Here's something we could all do. Give any three reads on any three players you are willing to make public. The consequences of not doing so will be determined by everyone that participates.

I'll start

Cat Scratch Fever - Town (145)
FancyPants - Town (25)
Eiralox - Town (Not answering questions)

I don't particularly have any reads.

Seen everyone's post? Select a few posts that are most alignment indicative for you now and get yourself a few.

I have read the entire game, and nothing is particularly notable.

I do think that CSF and BBT show a genuine interest in pushing the game forward, rather than a fabricated reason to go after their respective targets.

this for example is genuine, organic, vs proclaiming "I HAVE 12 PEOPLE NULL" and then force out reads to appear towny.

I have Eira basically locked in as mafia and there is nothing that can happen that will cause me to stray from this course. The evidence is there. It is reasonable and it should prove that Eira is mafia. I'm going to be passive about the Mala and Lowell wagons as I like info but I'm actively against the current loftwing wagon.

Good morning i slept all day

The people tunneling on loftwing need to stop when scum eira is right there.

I also am untownlocking irrelephant until they can explain where their mind went from Eira to Loftwing - I did not feel good about the last few pages and how they treated certain slots suddenly.

Hi , loftwing is obvtown, lets vote out either lowell or eira please

Im not frankly surprises that loftwing ended up being PR
I also believe Fredrick is a PR so they're off the fucking table

They'll fight tooth and nail against this for the entire day but I think we'd have a very good chance of CW flipping scum. It's quite possible that as a team they both planned it out for Loftwing to claim a role when they were under pressure and didn't expect Loftwing to then be eliminated from the game overnight.

CW's shift on Fredrick also feels more opportunistic now in retrospect, they clearly identified that Fredrick had a role but were willing to get on the wagon as it became a viable alternative to Loftwing.

[MalcolmTucker]

I'm so far behind in this game, only read properly up to page 11.

Loftwing wagon seems bad though, likely scum on that push. Gonna try my best to catch up today

Is there anyone openly opposing the Loftwing wagon except for myself? Lack of counter wagon should also be a concern if true.

The justification for voting Loft from him was kind of a lurker thing which he has shown interest in chasing.

Loftwing has more posts than Lowell, Malcolm, Cat, Kenny and Shoshin. I'm not sure a 'lurker' push is sufficient reason I'm afraid.

BBT was pretty defensive of Loftwing and could have been a teammate, especially given they very much engineered the push of Fredrick as an elimination. But, saying that, I do feel like their read on Fredrick felt quite organic and they may not have had any idea the push on Fredrick would actually result in an elimination. Less likely to be scum than CW but worth keeping an eye on.

[MalcolmTucker]

So post 899 is the final vote count before Loftwing then claimed. I'd say everyone here looks like a pretty solid townblock now.

[MalcolmTucker]

Everyone voting on Loftwing that is.

[MalcolmTucker]

My concern with CW is amplified by the fact they voted Fredrick when they had been claiming (correctly!) Fredrick had a role shortly beforehand. Feels incredibly opportunistic.

[MalcolmTucker]

I feel like "meta" could be a perfectly good scum tactic to justify a TR on someone without having to go into any depth about why they are actually town based on their play.

[MalcolmTucker]

OK found the relevant interactions.

I start pushing the loftwing slot, I dislike his vote and then jump off of Kenny, when I ask CW why he TR's Loft he says:

305
(vibes and meta are his reason for townreading loft).

Later I make a big case on loft based on my meta read and the original kenny vote/unvote
394

CW reaffirms Loft is Town:
402

I do ask for a clarification here:
406

I don't believe he clarifies further and at this point starts a long back and forth between Eira.


For what it's worth I'm going to find it hard to come to terms with CW-scum but I do see the case, it's just a bit too

obvious

.

Does town CW defend his scum buddy like this?

IDK,

I think it's perfectly possible presuming CW was banking on Loftwing not being eliminated.

[MalcolmTucker]

I tend to agree with two of Malcolm`s four recent conclusions.

Although there is always the possibility that it was an expertly orchestrated scum thing, I for now agree, that Irrelephant`s constant push on Loft makes him townie.

CWs defence of Loft feels scummy. But I have to say, that it also feels like the previous game I had with their alt account. They were defending my slot from day 1 on in the same way and I was scum and they town. so with this meta info involved it could very well be within their town range. But it is definitely something to look at.

I don't think that BBT's defence of Loft is in any way scummy. Especially the "nearly half of the players were more lurking than Loft" feels very natural for a townie. Yes, BBT really started the Fred wagon, but I don't think, that anybody at that point felt like it could really get us to a (mis-)elim.

I have to totally disagree with the proposed townblock. And this is not due to the fact, that I am missing in it. I am far beyond the point of believing I could be a part of a townblock soon. I just can't believe that there isn`t at least one scum on that wagon. And the coincident, that Malcolm himself is in his proposed townblock. This lets me raise an eyebrow.

So Malcolm, why do you think, this is the townblockl we should go with (apart from the fact, that they were on a scum wagon)? I guess there`s no need to explain why you think Irrelephant should be a part of it.

I just fundamentally don't think it's very likely that scum were on the Loftwing wagon to be honest.

The slot was in that middle-ground where Loftwing wasn't quite at the point of being the only definite elimination for most of the day, however there was constant pressure all the same.

I don't think his elimination was obvious to the point where scum would want to vote for Loftwing to gain towncred; by the same token there was enough heat there that it couldn't be a throwaway vote from mafia to create some distance, if that makes sense.

Lowell could potentially work to a degree and Gamma/Shoshin was absent for most of D1, but I don't see how scum benefits from either slot voting Loftwing. There's misdirects and then there's actively harming your chances as scum for minimal self-gain.

Remember, scum didn't think Loftwing was getting eliminated. They hoped to push through two townie eliminations with all three of them still in the game today.

[MalcolmTucker]

Leaning town on Kenny. His early scrap with Loftwing could be manufactured but seems fairly unlikely.

[MalcolmTucker]

Lowell was confident on Loftwing wagon and was on it reasonably early. Very much town I think. Only slot on that wagon I'd have any doubts about at the moment is Gamma given Shoshin didn't say much but again I feel like it's unlikely scum would place a vote there, so Gamma is likely town too.

[MalcolmTucker]

Eira was also pretty up front about their suspicion for Loftwing and seems unlikely to be scum.

I know Mala didn't post a lot but there's not a single mention of Loftwing in their ISO. Loftwing-Mala-CW seems like a palpable scumteam at the moment.

[MalcolmTucker]

Funnily enough CW not pushing BBT at all does slightly soften my scumread a bit from very confident to relatively confident - I do feel like that'd be a useful slot for CW to be pushing given they TR'd Loftwing quite strong. Although, of course, there's not necessarily anything ruling out the two of them being scum together, much as I don't see it.

[MalcolmTucker]

Once i look at how wagons are i honestly feel i still have a vastly similar PoE? A game recently finished where i thought bbt was scum during night phase and i had BBT in poe because of that game but now that I know they were town there i have flipped my read there because of that.

The main thing i ask is people keep an open mind about this and allow me to do my work(trust me once i have evidence i can really case things well)

I have no doubt of this, my issue is if you're scum (which is quite probable) you could use that to try and wriggle out of being eliminated. We have a relatively strong townpool at this point, so for scum it's going to basically be a desperate scrap to throw anyone they can who's feasible onto the scrapheap. But intrigued to see what you come up with, even if only to give me a better feel on my read of you.

[MalcolmTucker]

Funnily enough CW not pushing BBT at all does slightly soften my scumread a bit from very confident to relatively confident - I do feel like that'd be a useful slot for CW to be pushing given they TR'd Loftwing quite strong. Although, of course, there's not necessarily anything ruling out the two of them being scum together, much as I don't see it.

I think its fair to see bbt and I as partnered but from my point of view, and bbts thats obviously... not possible so keep in mind that as town id be seeing things in a different POV adnd have a different view than most, notably being forced to consider slots others think are clear for (what i believe ) are weak distancing reasons.

From where i sit, if the team is lowell loftwing eira - they were in deep shit all day and the fredrick wagon was a godsend.

I don't see this at all, Lowell/Eira both went in on Loftwing at various points in the game. One scum going after Loftwing due to pressure against them, two strikes me as incredibly unviable and I worry you're already desperately trying to shift the game away from suspecting players who defended scum instead of those who correctly called out said player as scum.

[MalcolmTucker]

Nevermind I've figured it out.

vote gamma

Welcome

My initial D2 thoughts based on what I can remember:

Towns: Irrel, Fancy, Kenny
Nulls: BBT, Malcolm, Eira
Scums: Gamma, Mala, CW

Lowell's suspicion of Gamma is townie in my opinion. I doubt Gamma is going to get eliminated today, the slot is not widely scumread at all, and personally I reckon if Lowell were scum they'd be better going after someone who defended Loftwing. I don't see this approach from scum at all at the moment.

[MalcolmTucker]

Like wagons d1 were lowell/loftwing

When lowell was getting wagoned, lowell unexplained jumped on loft. Viable bus, and what i believe was what happened at this point(pending deeper reread, mobile gaming har

Same thing happened with eira

What i need lowell to do is explain their progression and how they reached a vote on loftwing.

At this point they both had two votes each before Lowell went onto Loftwing. Neither of them were particularly under absolute threat of imminent elimination at this point. Scum did not need to vote for scum here, which adds to my case that Lowell is likely town.

[MalcolmTucker]

Malcom youre doing the 1 dimensional analysis thing again

Jesus christ malcom did you even read a single post from any other player before the vote

I'm not doing one-dimensional analysis at all, this just feels like a deliberate attempt to make me doubt my reads and feel silly about them. Your entire appeal feels a bit like this at the moment - you have skills as a scum-hunter so we need to keep you alive, I get that, but it also means if you are scum you're a dangerous player and from that POV I'm wary of you continuing on. I fundamentally really don't trust that your main scumcase around Lowell/Eira here basically involves trying to deflect blame onto players who either suspected or voted in favour of eliminating confirmed scum.

I'll listen to what you have to say. I'm open to being swayed, I just do not see a case for scum Lowell at the moment and it feels incredibly disingenuous to me.

[MalcolmTucker]

CW could be scum trying to power a miselim through. I think loftwing is a pretty good flip

We should consider making a flip happen sooner rather than later because this weekend is a holiday weekend for everyone in the US and we have about 2.5 days left in this game day, during which the American players might barely post (e.g. me, I'll be hanging with family)

I agree with this, especially as one of the folks who will be more out than in this weekend.

And the way the loftwing wagon just seems to be floating there with no one wanting to hammer makes me feel good about it.

The last vote is always the hardest--come on folks, someone be a hero.

This is solid town analysis, for example, I reckon. Lowell wasn't just reluctantly voting Loftwing but actively wanted to push the wagon through. There's not even a slight attempt to float an alternative, despite the fact we literally ended up voting out someone else entirely.

[MalcolmTucker]

Yeah Lowell seems like pretty obvious town here.

[MalcolmTucker]

VOTE: Confidently Wrong

Giving it a good go but I'm struggling to see this slot coming back as town.

[MalcolmTucker]

Naturally no reason to doubt Fancy's claim and it'd be a major coincidence if Gamma came back town given what we know.

My general feeling this turn has been we're best to eliminate the person who's most likely to come back as scum based on what happened D1. That's clearly been superseded by the evidence we've now got on Gamma. I'll hold off voting to see what they have to say though.

[MalcolmTucker]

Looking forward - my general view here is that if there was one scum either accusing Loftwing of being scum or voting for them, the other scum team member was likely being more defensive.

Remember, scum didn't know Loftwing was going to die N1 and was the claim came in, they would have felt quite bold about their position going forward presuming Gamma could avoid elimination along with the third scum. From that reasoning I still believe it's probably going to be CW, with BBT being a contender if I'm wrong on that even though I very much TR the slot at the moment.

[MalcolmTucker]

If we're not going to hear back from Gamma then I'm also content to hammer and get this moving.

[MalcolmTucker]

Cool. May as well not waste anymore time. I'll give any other posters an hour or two to put in any last thoughts to the thread they wish to share in case they get eliminated overnight. Especially Fancypants given their role reveal.

[MalcolmTucker]

Cool. On we go then.

VOTE: Gamma Emerald

[MalcolmTucker]

Also, we clearly weren't voting elsewhere this turn. Gamma had time, as did others to give further input. Probably not much point in prolonging the inevitable.

[MalcolmTucker]

I wish I could have your undeserved confidence that scum must be targeting me with everything they've got at all times, CW.

I stand by my read that a scumteam with CW would be doing better than this

, I'll reevaluate later if needed. BBT seems more likely scum than CW, at this point. I don't see the case for Lowell very much, but mainly because I just think kenny is so scummy, and was treated in such a s/s way by loftwing

The scumteam haven't done much wrong though. It's been good townplay that's gotten us here. Loftwing survived the elimination but got caught by the vig and FancyPants managed to catch out Gamma. I think CW is a good player but their deliberate strategy here is partially to convince us that they are too valuable to eliminate, and along similar lines to then convince us a win can't be this easy. But sometimes things just go well for one of the teams.

That being said, I don't want to just tunnel CW and will keep options open. Lowell I'm ruling out but Kenny is very much worthy of consideration. Yourself, me and FancyPants are all town. I reckon BBT is town but they could feasibly be scum still.

[MalcolmTucker]

Town to scum:

Eira
Fancy
Kenny
Malcolm
Cat
CW
Irrel
BBT
Fred
Mala
Lowell
Loftwing

Had lowell stated as a bottom read - when loftwing wagon dissolves, a lowell one popped out. Shoshin voted fred instead

Distancing happened but literally putting your two teammates as your two main scumreads just doesn't strike me as a wise approach at all. Even one works - you don't want to implicate both. Shoshin could've just believed Fred was a better possible elimination, no? Considering that's what happened.

[MalcolmTucker]

Town to scum:

Eira
Fancy
Kenny
Malcolm
Cat
CW
Irrel
BBT
Fred
Mala
Lowell
Loftwing

Had lowell stated as a bottom read - when loftwing wagon dissolves, a lowell one popped out. Shoshin voted fred instead

Distancing happened but literally putting your two teammates as your two main scumreads just doesn't strike me as a wise approach at all. Even one works - you don't want to implicate both. Shoshin could've just believed Fred was a better possible elimination, no? Considering that's what happened.

You will learn one day

Trying to figure out if you are deliberately being this condescending to make me doubt my read or out of townie frustration.

[MalcolmTucker]

You dont care why lowell wasnt the counterwagon after loftwing wagon dissolved at all and it shows. Lowell town because reasons!!!! No tmi here no sireee

Just has to be the easily findable town CW who is definitely not spewed by scum.

I've said I would consider Kenny as well. I literally said above I am open to alternative ideas and will not simply tunnel you. Go and read my post.

[MalcolmTucker]

Sorry i forgot townies dont try to get read as town ever. They judt accept the shitty arguments and lie down.. thats the real townie way right malcom

You could actually try and engage with my reads on you and why I think you could be scum instead of dismissing every single argument ever made implying you could be scum as that of someone who is not as enlightened and as skilled as you are. I've admitted I could be wrong and I will consider other options. I personally do not think Lowell is scum - you thought the same way about Loftwing D1. I disagree with your read re Lowell and barring a major change won't be voting there today, but will consider Kenny as a possible elimination at the moment.

[MalcolmTucker]

You dont care why lowell wasnt the counterwagon after loftwing wagon dissolved at all and it shows. Lowell town because reasons!!!! No tmi here no sireee

Just has to be the easily findable town CW who is definitely not spewed by scum.

I've said I would consider Kenny as well. I literally said above I am open to alternative ideas and will not simply tunnel you. Go and read my post.

No. You are not open to lowell. That is who i want. I have found reasons for kenny town . I have found reasons for fancy town. I have found reasons for you town. I have found reasons for BBT town. I have found reasons for Irrelephant11 town. I have reasons for eira town.

Bbt is the *only* person who plausibly could be fooling me here.

My only reason for lowell town is that he voted right on mafia.

Thats it.
We ignore the really absurd pushes he tried to make against myself, mala, and CSF(WHO WAS TOWNREADING ME BTW)

Well yeah, that's a pretty good reason to townread someone.

[MalcolmTucker]

Lowell's suspicion of Loftwing was consistently and he was actively encouraging others to hammer the slot. That's more than just distancing.

[MalcolmTucker]

CW could be scum trying to power a miselim through. I think loftwing is a pretty good flip

We should consider making a flip happen sooner rather than later because this weekend is a holiday weekend for everyone in the US and we have about 2.5 days left in this game day, during which the American players might barely post (e.g. me, I'll be hanging with family)

I agree with this, especially as one of the folks who will be more out than in this weekend. And the way the loftwing wagon just seems to be floating there with no one wanting to hammer makes me feel good about it. The last vote is always the hardest--come on folks, someone be a hero.

Lowell's actively arguing for Loftwing to be hammered here. Given neither of them ended up being eliminated there was clearly room for escape. I feel like Lowell being scum rests on incredibly bad scumplay here, which is possible, but I'm not really seeing it.

[MalcolmTucker]

Now i see how ive been able to win off busses so easily in the past rofl

Thing is, without wanting to sound too complacent, feels like we're in a good place here because odds are overwhelmingly in favour of town. We have scope to get it wrong for a turn probably. My worry re you being scum is that there's a complete desperation to get rid of Lowell here against all other targets which doesn't necessarily feel like town trying to win the game, it feels like scum fighting for any escape they can find.

[MalcolmTucker]

That was when it was lowell vs loft

And neither of them went out. The entire argument for this basically rests on the idea all three scum were basically constantly pushing each other D1. There's bussing and distance, and then there's active self-sabotage.

[MalcolmTucker]

See i would self vote here but i know that no one will listen to me abojt lowell so i want to thunderdome lowell here and now and no one contribute arguments for lowell. Let him make his case. I will SHOW YOU he is scum.

To be fair, by your reckoning, we could vote for you and then Lowell, and we'd still win the game comfortably. I'm happy to let Lowell make the towncase for themselves though and analyse it based on that. I could go more in-depth but I see the point that on the very small chance Lowell is scum it's maybe best to let them formulate an argument for their town status without giving them too much of a case to make if they're scum.

[MalcolmTucker]

I think we can use this dayphase to our advantage, see what all the suspects have to say.

[MalcolmTucker]

We really should probably hear from Kenny. Struggling to see scum being outside CW or Kenny.

[MalcolmTucker]

I still don't like CW's sudden shift on Fredrick D1 either, went from thinking correctly he had a role to scum within about two posts, which doesn't feel like CW given current/recent play.

[MalcolmTucker]

I find it hard to believe that before I joined the wagon that saved loftwing, 4 townies were on it

Yeah get what you mean. CW's sudden switch to that wagon could be read as quite opportunistic.

[MalcolmTucker]

Will Kenny not be at prodding point soon? Granted we had the night phase but they've not interacted with the game is nearly a week. I'd hope scum would at least put in minimal effort even if just to confirm we're voting in the right place through some bad responses. Makes me wonder if he's disengaged town.

[MalcolmTucker]

When's the deadline? Not been too engaged but might try to do a proper scumcase of various players later and see where we sit after that.

[MalcolmTucker]

I'm replacing out unfortunately a serious life situation has come up - the mod just hasn't got to it yet.

I'm sorry everyone.

No need to apologise - stay safe.

[MalcolmTucker]

Sorry been busy, will catch up on recent posts.

[MalcolmTucker]

Sorry been busy, will catch up on recent posts.

lovely hope to hear from u soon

I think your case on CW a few pages back is pretty solid to be honest, it's given me more confidence in where I was before after some doubts.

I don't think Lowell's responses have been pretty great - I'd have liked to have seen a more proactive effort from them to towncase themselves, but I also feel like scum Lowell would perhaps be more pushed to make said towncase if they were scum given I'd likely be on their side.

I also appreciate the risk of getting too actively involved in an argument with CW where it ends up just taking up pages and pages without the game progressing and nothing happening expect lots of doubt being sowed.

VOTE: Confidently Wrong

[MalcolmTucker]

Eira im going to be brutally honest. you are not a player who as far as I can tell is some sort of mafia prodigy who has way better reads than other people.

If you're along on your island you are probably wrong. Just like how I was wrong alone on my island on Loftwing. You won't listen to that because it's coming from your super duper confident scumread of yours but its the fucking truth lmao and its extremely frustrating to argue with you because like i mentioned before you are both confbiasing your conclusion and working backwards and also refusing to acknowledge logic that opposes your view.

Posts like this are a massive red flag for me, for example. Note that none of this is actually an evidence-based attempt to change Eira's mind based on the state of the game - it's solely an attempt from CW at making themselves look like the only player who can confidently read the game so that other townies are either wary to scumread them as a result, or feel silly for doing so in the first place.

I think with a larger scum team still remaining CW would perhaps be more conciliatory in an attempt to genuinely get townies onside, but some of these posts reek of frustration in what has undoubtedly been a very frustrating game for scum, and a forceful last ditch effort to stay in the game at all costs is perhaps now a more viable approach for CW than playing a more methodical game.

[MalcolmTucker]

I'm going to do an exercise and try to go through lowell's ISO and find reasons to townread them and make a list. I ask people who are townreading the slot to do a similar exercise and look for reasons to scumread them. Its an exercise called "trustfalls" and "distrustfallls" I've learned from my home site of epicmafia that has helped reeval. I'm also rechecking malcom because we haven't heard from them in a while and their posts this phase were .. unimpressive.

I am like 90% sure that I did this earlier and found them spewed town but I'm going to dig deeper and see if it was definitely the case because I am seeing some town things peeking thru on Lowell but I want to be .. sure.

Dunns kinda not doing work I'm asking them to properly is not helping because I wanted them to narrow down the PoE as much as possible and show what they thought about people, like explain what they saw that spews X person townie, etc. rather than just whatever it is they did. I'm still confident on BBT town though I think theyre kinda obvtown in a way that is hard to explain this day phase and I lowkey think theyre one of the townier slots despite their anti town plays in the game.

I've had a busy few days and been a bit disengaged so apologies for that, I appreciate I've not contributed as much as I'd have hoped to on this turn.

I'm not sure how you'd be able to read my ISOs/interactions and come back with anything other than solid town. I was the first player Shoshin pushed. I then pushed back at Shoshin and hinted they might be scum because it was a lazy and incoherent push. I then later pushed Loftwing. We know Gamma/Shoshin bussed on Loftwing's slot when it came to the vote. A scumteam of Loftwing/Gamma+Shoshin/myself would basically rely on all three scumteam members regularly pushing each other.

[MalcolmTucker]

Lowell definitely continued to push loft’s elimination *even though* momentum was shifting away from loft/the wagon was stalling. Like at one point on D1 scum!Lowell had to think “I’m bussing no matter what! I WILL kill my teammate even if an easy alternative exists!!”

You were completely right here before switching onto the vote for Lowell. Lowell not only wanted to vote for Loftwing but actively encouraged us to finalise the hammer at one point. That moves from bussing to active self-sabotage for me given the clear, eventual scum plan was for Lowell to claim a role. Lowell's play as scum only makes sense if there'd been a fairly weak vote which either remained there without much comment, or a vote that was quickly removed.

[MalcolmTucker]

Sorry been busy, will catch up on recent posts.

lovely hope to hear from u soon

I think your case on CW a few pages back is pretty solid to be honest, it's given me more confidence in where I was before after some doubts.

I don't think Lowell's responses have been pretty great - I'd have liked to have seen a more proactive effort from them to towncase themselves, but I also feel like scum Lowell would perhaps be more pushed to make said towncase if they were scum given I'd likely be on their side.

I also appreciate the risk of getting too actively involved in an argument with CW where it ends up just taking up pages and pages without the game progressing and nothing happening expect lots of doubt being sowed.

VOTE: Confidently Wrong

Youre afraid of being proven wrong because you care about your ego more than being right on me
You dont give. A shit if im town or scum.

Again these are baseless appeals to emotion aimed at making me doubt my reads without actually outlining why you are not scum. Literally any player could reply to my posts with this if I was suspecting them - someone has to be scum and by process of elimination I think the third one is likely to be you given how play has gone so far.

Again the frantic nature of these posts isn't convincing me either. I don't want to get complacent but the game is currently heavily balanced in favour of the town. The town stands a strong chance of winning now. If I am wrong on you, I would be willing to reconsider Lowell - as it stands I think it's just genuinely a bit stupid to eliminate someone who was delightfully pleading for us to hammer scum on D1 on the off-chance it's some sort of 4D chess. Who knows, I might be wrong - I don't think I am and I'd rather eliminate the player I believe is most likely to be scum first before then revisiting someone else.

[MalcolmTucker]

I'm unsure I like SCP floating Bnuuy on the basis it has to be an alternative to Nashville when we still seem to have plenty of time and could explore various different options.

Here's a recent example of malcom being blatantly.wrong on me while im pushing actual.scum in a diffrent game btw

He refuses to learn how to read me bc basing a read on feelings.is easier than reconsidering logic lmao

What feelings? I don't claim to be a great player but I'm typically try to follow a more logical approach instead of an emotional one - I'm generally not the most confrontational player and certainly aim not to have any lasting beef with someone going from one game to another. Again, under this logic you are suggesting there is simply no way I can feasibly scumread you, because any scumread is inherently going to be portrayed as wrong by you since it is the job of scum to convince others they are town.

[MalcolmTucker]

I pushed your mislim.im that game malcom and i used it to improve.

If im scum i just push you as scum this game because its easy to copy recency.

Solve from your own slots pov.

God how the fuck am i supposed to argue against incorrect logic this is impossible. And my top scumread getting cleared for what can easily be a bus when both scum kills were actually
Wagon context too fucking hard amirite.

Not a fucking fan of BBT just sheeping the most consensus wagon available though.

I get fucking extra scrutiny because im loud but lowell just changes a read with 0 progression for no reason and people sleep.

WHY DOES LOWELL INSTANT PUSH KENNY AFTER CALLING THEM TOWN THE DAY BEFORE. Nothing changed at all.

Not really though. I've been pretty obvious town since D1 when I consistently pushed Loftwing because I genuinely believed they were scum and by the time we became aware Gamma was scum I looked even more townie because Shoshin and I pushed each other D1. Again - constant attemps to defer to meta here because you evidently feel it's your most viable way to make players doubt a scumread on you.

[MalcolmTucker]

VOTE: Loftwing

Subject to change but time to cast a vote somewhere. Not confident their opportunistic jumping around from wagon to wagon is townie. The vote on Mala felt particularly opportunistic as I said earlier on.

I think fundamentally the reasons you are presenting for reading people is flawed and not consistent(results wise) in any way.

So I envision it shall be difficult to convince you similarly to the last time we played together.


Jumping around wagon to wagon is not a scum behavior.

Again here's a perfect example of a post where you're trying to argue I'm using flawed logic to find scum when said player genuinely ended up coming back as scum. In the end I'd argue my logic was pretty sound - I'm generally very hit or miss at identifying scum but this was an alright effort for D1. Instead of convincing me why Loftwing was not scum, you insist their play was not "scum behaviour", something which I'd argue is inherently flawed in itself - you know all players are different in how they play as scum and good players can indeed switch up their game to appear more townie.

[MalcolmTucker]

I have Eira basically locked in as mafia and there is nothing that can happen that will cause me to stray from this course. The evidence is there. It is reasonable and it should prove that Eira is mafia. I'm going to be passive about the Mala and Lowell wagons as I like info but I'm actively against the current loftwing wagon.

I'd argue that posts like this generally reflect a pretty major change in your play once the Loftwing wagon came about.

Early on you were very memey and jokey and had a more playful posting style. Obviously that's common for most of us early game but you pretty much alluded to playing with a fun gimmick.

Once scum was under pressure that went away. It'd make sense if you realised a teammate was in trouble and you started to try to exert greater force over the town so other players would come under pressure. And it sort of worked - Loftwing claimed, you jumped onto the Fred wagon (like, three posts after correctly identifying them as a RP) and Fred got eliminated.

[MalcolmTucker]

Ok. If you dont wanna find me town whatever. My fucking concern is people like you misclearing lowell and

are gonna push like irrelephant in 3 way over him

and lose us the game. You make me this promise - after i flip(and it will be town) you shove your "lowell pushed scum to flip" and listen to the arguments ive presented rather than stubbornly cling to what clearly led you the wrong way aside and put lowell in that PoE like i am asking.

I've said like multiple times Irrelephant is absolute confirmed town. Fancypants was too so that slot is in the clear.

I think BBT is town based on play but if you fail as an elimination I'd be interested in going back there. I fundamentally think Lowell is town here but would want them put under heavy pressure and potentially eliminated if you are town if their responses to pressure don't stack up.

[MalcolmTucker]

Literally why the fuck do i hard defend shoshin after seeing them flake my game in a recent game and thus would assume they hate beint scum AND also seeing CSF fumble setting up thus not wanting to trust teammates to carry by bussing me. I would bus shoshin here. Its fucking logical..

But nah its not YOUR logic. It makes too much sense and it would mean changing your read. Changing your read badddddd. Cant do that lmao.

Would be terrible to be wrong on me now that ive said mean words.

Again, just baseless appeals to emotion. I really don't care what tone you use even if I'd rather players were reasonable and decent with each other. The problem here, again, is going by your logic there's essentially no way I can scumcase you or regard you as scum. You expect to be treated as a confirmed and reliable townie here when your play indicates there is a strong chance you are scum.

[MalcolmTucker]

fred and shosh lean scum, CW lean town, and no opinion on the others

unvote, vote loftwing

Fine with this. No particular read on loft one way or the other but I’ve done dumber things with less reason.

@eira, loft/kenny/CW would be a hilariously clumsy scumteam so I doubt it. But loft with one of those two seems possible, with the third person being the duped town player along for the ride.

Dudes loft posted 8 times in the last day and a half, listing all his suspects, what exactly you want from him? Vote him or don’t. BBT is scum, eira is probably town, I have this read in my head and can’t shake it now.

Fine. I’ll be white-knighting scumBBTs errand boy if it gets us a vote.

vote Fred

I guess this ship has sailed, but man does that ever seem like a fake-claim. Never heard of a neighborizer—why would it exist in a mini.

Just far too many posts like this on D1 for Lowell to be scum. Under this logic they push both teammates and, again, the idea here is the scum team were basically all constantly pushing each other.

CW will say "but apart from that there isn't much to towncase them on" - but that's silly because the fundamental argument here is Lowell just pushes the two confirmed way too much for it to make sense as scum. The entire scumcase just doesn't work for me because it involves ignoring this.

[MalcolmTucker]

Malcom the issue is you refuse to consider a world where im town and look outside me at all.

Its lazy. Its frustrating to be on the receiving end. And constantly calling me scummy for bringing up facts about what youre doing or trying to prove myself town or expressing my frustration with a frustrating situation is downright unpleasant for me. Im not one to talk sure, but perhaps consider how you'd feel in my place as a townie.

You're doing the exact same with Lowell, no?

I am willing to look outside a world where you're not scum. I have acknowledged multiple times I might be wrong. I think BBT could potentially be scum, for example, given the way the game has gone so far and if you come back town, I think that well-presented (but ultimately faulty) case on Fred will require a lot more scrutiny.

My view is though that you are most likely to be scum and I struggle to see that changing before the day is out given we're not going to obtain any new info that goes beyond theorising on what we know so far.

Also - on the latter part, it's happened to me multiple times. It's frustrating but it happens. Someone has to be eliminated. Someone has to be read as scum. It probably sucked for Fred on D1 but even by being wrong we got a lot of info.

[MalcolmTucker]

Everything i do is scummy.

Trying to solve for townies in POe and push who i think is scum with analytical logic ? Scummy, because trying to look townie
Trying to self towncase with logic that shows that it is ridiculous for me to be scum based on actions this game? Scummy
Trying to show that im town based on spew from scum? Scummy because im trying to show myself town(lol?)

Paranoia tinfoiling someone because theyve been absent for several days and im feeling unsure in the moment on the current POe? Scummy because somehow trying to widen poe before i even do it and present arguments.

This is what i see from people pushing me when i try to fight back.
Doesnt matter how much thought process and work i show, i cant fucking win because the conclusion is being worked from BACKWARDS. there is an assumption i am scum purely based on who i pushed and then no thought put into it further. Thats it.

This is not how you play town effectively. This is how you miseliminate a townie easily.

I think its just rich you're accusing me of illogical arguments malcom when yours aren't even rooted in logic beyond "wrong = scum" and just trying to make up points that make no sense to link me to scum.

You know perfectly well that scum would attempt to do all these things from their POV if they are trying to stay in the game. It's the literal objective of mafia. Good scum try to control the game and - especially when in a disadvantaged position - try to manipulate other players in a way which will get them onside.

I have literally made multiple posts outlining reasons with previous posts of yours detailing why I think you are scum.

[MalcolmTucker]

fred and shosh lean scum, CW lean town, and no opinion on the others

unvote, vote loftwing

Fine with this. No particular read on loft one way or the other but I’ve done dumber things with less reason.

@eira, loft/kenny/CW would be a hilariously clumsy scumteam so I doubt it. But loft with one of those two seems possible, with the third person being the duped town player along for the ride.

Dudes loft posted 8 times in the last day and a half, listing all his suspects, what exactly you want from him? Vote him or don’t. BBT is scum, eira is probably town, I have this read in my head and can’t shake it now.

Fine. I’ll be white-knighting scumBBTs errand boy if it gets us a vote.

vote Fred

I guess this ship has sailed, but man does that ever seem like a fake-claim. Never heard of a neighborizer—why would it exist in a mini.

Just far too many posts like this on D1 for Lowell to be scum. Under this logic they push both teammates and, again, the idea here is the scum team were basically all constantly pushing each other.

CW will say "but apart from that there isn't much to towncase them on" - but that's silly because the fundamental argument here is Lowell just pushes the two confirmed way too much for it to make sense as scum. The entire scumcase just doesn't work for me because it involves ignoring this.

Distancing doesnt exist... you miss the part where they push csf completely. And then the fact they double down on loft while theres a counterwagon on them

This is what im talking about. You think 1 dimensionally.

Distancing exists, being the cheerleader for hammering your teammate on D1 is not "distancing", it is active self-sabotage.

I have also stated multiple times that Lowell's suspicion of Shoshin D1 has contributed to my thinking because if Lowell is scum, it means they were actively putting pressure on both teammates. Just feels unnecessary for D1 at a point where Shoshin was quiet and not doing much. An easy teammate to let breeze by when Irrelephant was TR'ing Shoshin anyway.

[MalcolmTucker]

Town to scum:

Eira
Fancy
Kenny
Malcolm
Cat
CW
Irrel
BBT
Fred
Mala
Lowell
Loftwing

Under Lowell scum scenario, Shoshin is calling both teammates the two scummiest players here. Again just seems like bad strategy.

[MalcolmTucker]

What're your reads, Lowell?

Why is CW town, Cat?

Hmmm, this does give me slight pause though, more than anything I've cased so far, hadn't noticed it before. But Shoshin does eventually flit back to Fred anyway.

[MalcolmTucker]

Everything i do is scummy.

Trying to solve for townies in POe and push who i think is scum with analytical logic ? Scummy, because trying to look townie
Trying to self towncase with logic that shows that it is ridiculous for me to be scum based on actions this game? Scummy
Trying to show that im town based on spew from scum? Scummy because im trying to show myself town(lol?)

Paranoia tinfoiling someone because theyve been absent for several days and im feeling unsure in the moment on the current POe? Scummy because somehow trying to widen poe before i even do it and present arguments.

This is what i see from people pushing me when i try to fight back.
Doesnt matter how much thought process and work i show, i cant fucking win because the conclusion is being worked from BACKWARDS. there is an assumption i am scum purely based on who i pushed and then no thought put into it further. Thats it.

This is not how you play town effectively. This is how you miseliminate a townie easily.

I think its just rich you're accusing me of illogical arguments malcom when yours aren't even rooted in logic beyond "wrong = scum" and just trying to make up points that make no sense to link me to scum.

You know perfectly well that scum would attempt to do all these things from their POV if they are trying to stay in the game. It's the literal objective of mafia. Good scum try to control the game and - especially when in a disadvantaged position - try to manipulate other players in a way which will get them onside.

I have literally made multiple posts outlining reasons with previous posts of yours detailing why I think you are scum.

Fear of manipulation to avoid logical arguments. Awesome logic.

You know all scum try to manipulate town. My point is I'm not going to be easily convinced by appeals to emotion when there is evidence someone is likely to be scum.

[MalcolmTucker]

What're your reads, Lowell?

Why is CW town, Cat?

Hmmm, this does give me slight pause though, more than anything I've cased so far, hadn't noticed it before. But Shoshin does eventually flit back to Fred anyway.

Quoted the wrong post here - meant to quote the one where Shoshin votes CW.

[MalcolmTucker]

Youve already admitted you are cherrypicking my meta arguments as invalid solely on the basis im using them to show myself as town. When in fact meta is a very useful tool and would make me look obvious town.

As BBT likes to say, scum can manipulate meta. Good scum do. I take it into account but try not to rely on it too much unless there's a solid argument for doing so.

[MalcolmTucker]

I want to know what BBT thought of Shoshin/later Gamma slot early on. There's not that much about Shoshin in BBT's ISO (understandable if town given minimal content) but still, the teaming potentially works a bit better than CW/Gamma, which is giving me slight pause more than any of CW's repetitive appeals to emotion.

[MalcolmTucker]

Why is Fred so low? Lower than BBT and Irrel?

Don't like Fred's gimmick or 554 & 556.

Could this have been a bit of a preface for a Fred push from scum later?

[MalcolmTucker]

OK, but Irrelephant was also super confident in being able to read Shoshin based off meta

I think this was just a bit of a blind spot early on from Irrelephant. Clearly a bit of past history between them - if they were teammates, I reckon Irrelephant would maybe be less likely to emphasise that instead of going for the bold/immediate TR early on?

[MalcolmTucker]

One of my fundamental contentions, above all else, is I struggle to believe no scum came to Loftwing's defence on D1 at all. Gamma/Lowell revolves around all the scum basically scumreading each other in a way that was pretty much quite disastrous early on given we'd have basically had two scum as competing wagons for a while. This remains the primary reason I think one of CW/BBT is likely to be scum at this point. I know scum can distance and bus but if anything I'd argue that makes one of those two more likely to be scum in light of Gamma's flip - a team where there's a lot of distancing going on makes sense if there's also a proactive scum team member ardently trying to clear their buddy too.

[MalcolmTucker]

I think cw has posted so much that they have 300 extremely scummy posts. But also 500 very towny ones (don’t @ me about the math)

BBT before today’s Kenny elim fell apart had about 3 very towny posts and is the main reason loftwing didn’t die.

I too read BBT’s tone as town, it seems we all do (and who townreads cw’s tone? Not me, it’s so unpleasant sometimes) - but what has BBT accomplished? Getting Fred elimmed with the singular post of depth in his entire ISO (the Fred case) and avoiding saying anything of note D2 when Gamma was outed by a PR

Yeah the case on Fred was good (I bought it!) but also could come from a good scum player who's cased someone's ISO and found some posts they find incriminating. BBT/Shoshin potentially works a bit better than CW/Shoshin as well.

At first I sort of ruled out BBT on the basis their Fred case felt legit and it went through so had the risk of making them scummy - but BBT may not have initially expected the Fred case to work and once it did that was a happy bonus. And if it hadn't worked they'd have at least looked as if they were showing some extra original thought in their reads.

[MalcolmTucker]

I've seen it happen before and we lost bc 2 townies were hellbent tunneled on that logic.

It can work but only occasionally and carries major risk. Even if you bus well and town-clear yourself there's always the risk an investigate player manages to out you. I just don't see the benefit of scum playing the way they played D1. Loftwing was scummy but not a lost cause - no reason for all scum to pressure him or for Lowell to actively call for his hammering.

[MalcolmTucker]

How does the vig thing work here? If it's still in play that is? I feel like BBT/CW ultimately solves the game and if there's a way we can eliminate them both I would potentially advocate for that.

[MalcolmTucker]

Yes. Early bussing is less likely in 13p normal than in an open setup, mountainous, or a 9p normal. Too many unknown TPRs

Yeah I could be wrong here but 13-player setup feels like it's potentially around the least conductive for bussing? The game is big enough that you can actively avoid your teammates with more regularity without it being as noticeable, but it's not so big that losing a scum teammate early on isn't potentially terminal to your chances of winning.

[MalcolmTucker]

In a few rare scenarios, you could lose mechanically if you kill your own scum team too fast

Agreed, there's bold, 4D-type player and then there's just self-sabotage. Lowell scum here feels too close to self-sabotage for me.

[MalcolmTucker]

On the one hand CW's sudden push of BBT could be seen as very opportunistic given it's likely their most viable route to escape elimination.

On the other hand, I feel like CW would have known this a while back and the push on Lowell had rather evidently been going nowhere for a while. Shfiting onto BBT - or at least away from Lowell - at an earlier opportunity should have surely been a more advantageous move for scum.

[MalcolmTucker]

Still fundamentally reckon last scum is in one of the two. Personally I'm relatively keen on vigging one and voting out the other.

[MalcolmTucker]

The point about avoiding accidental PR hunting is a good one, though I’m currently leaning BBT scum more, mainly for how D1 went down

I think we're currently in a strong enough position that it's unlikely to be an issue if we know more players with roles - if anything helps us info-wise.

[MalcolmTucker]

Starting to think similarly to Irrelephant.

I want to eliminate BBT and I think vig should hit CW to cover both bases. I'd also be happy to do in reverse if preferred.

UNVOTE: till we decide on preference.

[MalcolmTucker]

I'm only voting for one of CW/BBT and I believe the one who is not eliminated should be vigged. If that fails Dunn is tomorrow's kill as a backup. We are 8v1 here I believe, BBT/CW have both confidently scumread each other at various points, both can't be scum, but should be more than comfortable with this approach unless they have entirely revoked their read on the other, which I would regard as suspicious if they are trying to push Dunn together.

[MalcolmTucker]

VOTE: dunn

a) I suck ass at reading kenny. I cannot distinguish town kenny from scum kenny. his reads were in retrospect somewhat soft.
b) shoshin/loft were doing weird ass distancing that looked genuine. it makes sense
c) I really dont doc read anyone here. I have a VT read on everyone except Enchant and Eira. Backup and bulletproof both act as protectives too, so adding a 3rd is ??

d) BBT's last string of posts made me feel a lot better about the slot and also reminded myself that BBT likes to gut OMGUS people generally

To be honest this just feels like a complete copout after some of us softened our scumreads on you yesterday given your posting. As Irrelephant mentioned further up the thread, it would be possible for you to attempt to manipulate the gamestate in this way to suit your own ends.

[MalcolmTucker]

again i must bring up that the duality of me being both the worst and the best scumplayer is being applied to me when people make up these batshit theories about how I'm playing the game.

I'm not making any judgement on your scumgame at all via my read. I do think you're obviously capable of playing well and while the game is slanted heavily in favour of town now I don't think you're the type of player (thankfully, as it's in the spirit of the game) who would back down and just give up easily. But generally I like to afford respect to any scumplayers where I can and assume they're going to work hard and do all they can to convince everyone else they are town.

[MalcolmTucker]

I should start compiling when people try to desperately keep scumreads on me by making up insane theories and saying "this COULD BE TRUE SO IT MEANS KOBA STILL SCUM". its a really stale joke at this point and I'm tired of seeing people use that logic when time and time again it doesn't work and I just flip green.

My scumread on you compared to before is still softer than it was, for reasons stated beforehand I still fundamentally believe the scum must be in either you or BBT, and with the vig there is a surefire way we can eliminate you both within this turn.

That's not due to mindless tunnelling - I'm town, Irrelephant is town, Enchant is town, and I think Lowell is town. So far as I can see only Dunn works there and I do not think Dunn is scum. If you both come back town, I apologise and I will push for Dunn's elimination in the next turn. But you see why this approach is viable, right? Your read on Lowell has softened, and you don't think the rest of us are scum, so we have an incredibly limited number of avenues to pursue.

[MalcolmTucker]

malcom forgive me for not believing you when you have consistently taken the worst faith conclusion possible from anything I say, so frankly, once my alignment is confirmed, whether it be now or in post game, do not ever try to make these kinds of theories at me, or at other players.

look for townreads, not scumreads.

you'll find more success.

I really like you trying to make this weirdly personal at all - the literal reason I think either you or BBT should be eliminated is because I essentially TR everyone else in the game. The only one I don't strongly TR is Dunn and if you both come back town Dunn can be eliminated tomorrow.

[MalcolmTucker]

I believe in the fact I'm the most findable player right now and it is lack of effort or want to find me town that is preventing people from doing so. If anyone bothered examining me by thought process it would be obvious. I can't mimic this thought process by this point in the game. No one can. This is a fact of mafia. You can mask it, you can't fake it.

You are once again entirely ignoring every single point I make. I'm about 50/50 on you and BBT. Earlier I was leaning 60/40 BBT, yesterday I was much more convinced you were scum, it's evolved and changed. But I fundamentally believe the last scum is one of you two and I think that is the quickest way to solve the game given we have a vig.

[MalcolmTucker]

"this is a copout" no its called reevaulation, something I can actually do.

But I literally have done this - I previously TR'd BBT, upon reflection there is a decent chance they are scum.

[MalcolmTucker]

I take it personally when I try my heart out and have shown proof and get the axe over people who haven't

You realise you are playing mafia, right? Literally any scum player could make this post because, again, the goal of scum is to appear as town. Do you think you should be invulnerable to elimination? Would you not try to make precisely these arguments to me right now if you were indeed scum?

I've been eliminated as town plenty while putting in effort - it's annoying, but it happens. A while back I was in a game where I was wrongly eliminated but I understood why it happened because we were down to three possible scum and the best way for town to win the game was for the three of us to be eliminated in order. The elimination after me we won the game - would have been nice to be around for the win, but it ultimately doesn't matter because the goal is for the team to win.

[MalcolmTucker]

I think you know I'm town and you're just trying to teach me a lesson but w/e lmfao

This is genuinely getting a little bit weird, your obsession with this idea I am personally pursuing you for some reason is just a little bit odd and feels borderline gamebreaking because it becomes impossible for anyone to actually assert you are scum without you suggesting they are trying I've said all I have to say for now and will step back from the thread for now, feel like these personal sort of posts just shouldn't really be allowed though, I try to generally avoid them. If you're scum it's just not a very good approach either. I've said I'll vote BBT - I just think you should both be eliminated because I think that solves the game. Like...what else am I meant to do? How am I actually able to genuinely assert I think you are mafia without it devolving into this sort of petty crap?

[MalcolmTucker]

Oh wait you're talking about a win./

you literally lost to being wrongly eliminated as PR so i dont really think you understand the mindset of me right now and have the ability to find me town unless you try to actually think of how I think.

That's not the game I'm talking about, but again, you clearly don't care about reading any of my posts or the content of them. Clever if it's mafia I guess, anti-town if not. Speak later.

To everyone else - shall vote either CW/BBT based on reasoning I've repeatedly given. Happy to compromise on either this turn.

[MalcolmTucker]

Imagine scum is Irrelephant or Malcolm.

What a wild game this would be. I really want to town read CW and I'm not sure if that's just because of effort.

But like, if he is town, who is scum?

Again I'm 50/50 on you both. See the arguments for either side. But your last point is the prescient one for me. I can't see beyond you or CW for scum. I therefore think best way to winning the game is eliminating both of you. Sorry for clogging up the thread. Genuinely logging off now, busy day tomorrow.

[MalcolmTucker]

I need to sleep for 8 and I'll be in work for the other 8.

Fuck.

I claim Vig

Cool. If you're not telling the truth guess we'll find out quite quickly.

VOTE: Confidently Wrong

If the vig is someone else please eliminate BBT for obvious reasons.

[MalcolmTucker]

Not gonna lie, probably shooting Irrelephant

Please don't do that.

[MalcolmTucker]

Good game, hadn't been convinced by Dunn scum but well done to those who nailed it.