Mini Normal 2271 - Game Over

[ItalianoVD]

I usually get scumread for this but eh who cares.

1. How long have you played the game of mafia, not just on this site, but ever?
2. Do you like playing the role of town or mafia better?
3. Are you an active poster or a lurker?
4. Do you find it hard to lie or it something you have no issues with?

[ItalianoVD]

I usually get scumread for this but eh who cares.

1. How long have you played the game of mafia, not just on this site, but ever?
2. Do you like playing the role of town or mafia better?
3. Are you an active poster or a lurker?
4. Do you find it hard to lie or it something you have no issues with?

- Since 2006
- Town. Like finding the solution to the problem not being the solution.
- Don’t think I’ve ever lurked. Pretty active overall.
- I do find it hard to lie and have issues with it.

[ItalianoVD]

'Soup, fools

You have a wolf guide? What can you teach me thay I don't already know

that you can always create better gambits

Hah, the riskier the strategy the less villagerd are interested in uncovering it. I like it.

Are you guys friends?

[ItalianoVD]

Love the responses. Keep ‘em coming.

[ItalianoVD]

JV I JUST WANNA LET YOU KNOW IM TOWN IN THIS GAME

I KNOW ITS GONNA BE HARD TO EARN YOUR TRUST

BUT I GOTCHU BB

VOTE: flavorleaf

Hi

Sounds like you guys had a tough time together.

[ItalianoVD]

Spiritual vote on Malakittens

So is it a real vote then?

[ItalianoVD]

Malashell

[ItalianoVD]

i can already tell you're gonna be charming

Of course that’s what people tell me. But with a name like humaneatingmonkey you’ll give me a run for my money.

[ItalianoVD]

Mala villagery tho, why do you want to vote only villagers mr monkey?

You got villagers vibes off of that? Why are they screaming, we can hear them.

'Soup, fools

You have a wolf guide? What can you teach me thay I don't already know

that you can always create better gambits

Hah, the riskier the strategy the less villagerd are interested in uncovering it. I like it.

Are you guys friends?

Nope. Never heard of em.

Your interaction was kinda weird.

[ItalianoVD]

Your interaction was kinda weird.

It felt kinda forced, but maybe it’s just me.

[ItalianoVD]

im not seeing what you're seeing when you mean both kitty's posts are fairly pure tonally that i can dismiss them as town, and i think scum would be more trigger happy to give that assessment.
so now i'm asking you how you reached that judgment.

i also think malakittens is addressing JV as if they already know JV is town and is trying to get their trust. that's a very weak read tho, and it seems like there's background there.

Great point +1

[ItalianoVD]

I am very generous with villa reads early in the game, and tend to raise my bar as the game goes on. It is generally easier to sort that way and catch wolves in PoE first and foremost. I understand most people try to be conservative with stronger reads, but I find that playstyle boring and I like to pressure wolves by strongly townreading people that may be potential miseliminations. It's a style that works well for the most part.

Okay so I can get with this because that’s how I play for the most part. I gotta say though you giving out town reads like Oprah has got me keeping my eye on you.

[ItalianoVD]

That Flavor Leaf/koopa interaction on pg 3 is pinging my antennas.

[ItalianoVD]

Catching up a bit…

Koopa's gonna be hard to read

Don’t think so.

I have played with JV twice so far; both times I have been scum. So there's the potential that he might vote me right off the bat which is fair considering that I been scum twice so far now against him.

Why does that matter? So what if he votes you? Do you always do that for people you’ve played with?

You know HEM made a good point when he said it sounded like you were addressing JV almost like you knew he was already town and didn’t want the smoke.

I’ve never played with you (that I can remember) but I would assume town!you maybe wouldn’t care that much.

tbh if i was self conscious i prob wouldnt have posted my first post
just saying

And this is a contradiction.

73 and 74 ping me. Like the questions are kinda meh. Like almost like once they answer then what? They don’t seem like sorting questions. Feels like busywork.

I’m gonna place 77 82 and 83 in the townbin pile for now.

Geez 108 is screaming at me dude.

VOTE: koopa

[ItalianoVD]

Ftr, I’m kinda in between JV and Roden when it comes to Mala. Like I feel the towny frustration with the posts, but can also see how the self consciousness can be attributed to a scum!mala.

[ItalianoVD]

That Flavor Leaf/koopa interaction on pg 3 is pinging my antennas.

What happens when two antennas get married?

Ahh yes, the ceremony sucks, but the reception is amazing!

[ItalianoVD]

Anyway for now my hot take fresh off the press…

Scum team: koopa, Roden, Scorpious.

Honestly if I wasn’t leaning toward Flavor Leaf being town I’d think he and koopa were partners.

I think Mala is the LHF for today.

Well off to bed y’all everyone have a great night!

[ItalianoVD]

That Flavor Leaf/koopa interaction on pg 3 is pinging my antennas.

What happens when two antennas get married?

I know I was being funny with my response but what were you actually trying to say here?

[ItalianoVD]

Again, appreciate the responses to the questions. I like getting to know the people I play with with whom I’m not familiar. If I was giving out prizes, it’d be a tie for 1st place between Flavor Leaf and JV for best response.

[ItalianoVD]

I don't particularly agree with players making big detailed lists of who they think is town/mafia early on like Koopa - it often feels a bit forced in a way that feels unnatural, ultimately none of our reads are going to be that bulletproof at this point in the game.

This.

[ItalianoVD]

What did you find wolfy about it?

The

tone

of the post mainly. I felt like the way you were asking her to post a readslist was kinda iffy. A readslist that early is 1) not gonna do anything as far as being able to read the slot and 2) a waste of time that early. And yes I do think it could possibly be alignment indicative.

[ItalianoVD]

VOTE: Malakittens
This one is pretty obvious.

I missed this one. What’s obvious?

[ItalianoVD]

I don't particularly agree with players making big detailed lists of who they think is town/mafia early on like Koopa - it often feels a bit forced in a way that feels unnatural, ultimately none of our reads are going to be that bulletproof at this point in the game. But by the same token I can see the value in sometimes just throwing something out there to see if it sticks early on to force some interactions, so I'm not particularly reading Koopa as overly mafia right now.

Agreed that Mala's interactions feel very caged so far and the "lighten up, it's day one" type stuff feels like a major deflection which wants to make others players feel wary about going in too heavily without addressing the substance of any accusatory posts. But I also get how that frustration could be genuine, so a slot to keep an eye on for now.

My main reason why I disagree with Koopa in placing pressure on me in order to give reads is I know if I try to do a readlist it's forced upon me in order to "produce content/reads". It's very unnatural for me to post a read list this early esp on page 4 when we don't have a lot of solid content. Now if I wasn't town or if he was doing this to another player I'd maybe go for a scumbuddy coaching another scumbuddy, but he's doing it to my slot.

I'm not really deflecting. I'm trying to move the game forward, but everyone keep harping on the current subject is just giving either one of two oppurnities for scum to either "lurk" or jump in order to look like they are being productive.

Also I don't think roden is scum for what's happening right now. I think him and I are at a T v T fight.

Ahh dang it Mala. I’ve done this as scum/wolf. Townread your attacker to try and soften the attack since people live to be townread. Ugh. Tell me I’m wrong.

Anyway I gotta go. I know I missed some things, but I’ll be back later. Ciao.

[ItalianoVD]

I'm here. Let me catchup before I go live.

[ItalianoVD]

Spoiler:

141 - Don't have a problem with this. Makes sense.
144 - I like this from Malcolm. It's a reasonable response I feel scum don't need to make.
145 - Somewhat agree. Although I can see why some may felt the way they did/do. BTW Malakittens got to 4 votes right? Roden, HEM, koopa, NK15? I'd assume HEM is fairly town up to this point. Not too sure about NK15, not enough to feel comfortable reading there yet.

Italiano, where's that Scorpious read coming from?

I'll tell you soon.

149 - I actually don't think this is a bad unvote.
151 - Interesting.
152 - Another good post from Malcolm. I agree.
153, 154, 155, 158, 159 - Yeah I think it's safe to say Malcolm and NK15 are town. That exchange was fair. Add on the unvote and the responses.
156 - Uhh no.
157 - Okay good response.
160 - Ooh, good catch. Nice on Bones. I didn't see that.
161 - Nai. I tried it but, no.

I was reading 162 and was about to say hey why are you answering but NK15 was already on that plane.

164 - I'm kinda lost, what were you trying to highlight here?
168 - Yeah I agree on this. I just keep thinking it's weird the way koopa has played up to this point.
173 - Hmm. I wonder if you're someone I know. I played with someone who would vote for pressure and kinda throw their vote all over instead of just asking questions to the players. To some it looks scummy, but I got it after playing with them for a while. Hmm.
174 - I can see Facebones as townie, although I wouldn't go there just yet as they don't have enough posts. I guess I can answer it and it'll answer NK as well. It's mainly gut. I can't really go more into depth without breaking the site rules.
175 - Yeah. Very true. Gotta let it ride.
179 - Dang, I missed that.
181 - Okay, kinda spicy.

I think I'm pretty much caught up to where I was earlier.

[ItalianoVD]

Italiano, you should know that doesn't make it wolf indicative.
Perhaps consider this motivation, which is the truth:
I want to advance the game to the fun part asap(solving)
The most effective way to get there is to take stances and note reactions to said stances.
I have not even once stated any of my reads were set in stone - in fact mala has been fairly volatile here in view.
Tl;dr forcing reads advances the gamestate and you should consider people have diffrent opinions on how to play Mafia.

I ask kindly that you leave that point alone and evaluate me based on the content of my posts rather than how you think villagers should play the game.

This is fair.

[ItalianoVD]

What did you find wolfy about it?

The

tone

of the post mainly. I felt like the way you were asking her to post a readslist was kinda iffy. A readslist that early is 1) not gonna do anything as far as being able to read the slot and 2) a waste of time that early. And yes I do think it could possibly be alignment indicative.

I already explained it creates a baseline to trace from.
Again, you and I likely see the way to solve the game in a different light. I asked for something that helps me, perhaps it doesnt help *you* but it does help me.
Talk to me about Scorpious, please.

You know what. Also fair. I may have just been looking at my experience. I'm not particularly against the way you are trying to solve, but I've played this game (well the wolf game variation) for a long time and I have seen this style from wolves/scum. I can admit, however, that villagers/town have done it as well. Given the context of this game, though, I was okay with where I was regarding you. And like I said in my previous post, if you are who I think you are then I'll back off and let you do your thing.

[ItalianoVD]

I don't particularly agree with players making big detailed lists of who they think is town/mafia early on like Koopa - it often feels a bit forced in a way that feels unnatural, ultimately none of our reads are going to be that bulletproof at this point in the game. But by the same token I can see the value in sometimes just throwing something out there to see if it sticks early on to force some interactions, so I'm not particularly reading Koopa as overly mafia right now.

Agreed that Mala's interactions feel very caged so far and the "lighten up, it's day one" type stuff feels like a major deflection which wants to make others players feel wary about going in too heavily without addressing the substance of any accusatory posts. But I also get how that frustration could be genuine, so a slot to keep an eye on for now.

My main reason why I disagree with Koopa in placing pressure on me in order to give reads is I know if I try to do a readlist it's forced upon me in order to "produce content/reads". It's very unnatural for me to post a read list this early esp on page 4 when we don't have a lot of solid content. Now if I wasn't town or if he was doing this to another player I'd maybe go for a scumbuddy coaching another scumbuddy, but he's doing it to my slot.

I'm not really deflecting. I'm trying to move the game forward, but everyone keep harping on the current subject is just giving either one of two oppurnities for scum to either "lurk" or jump in order to look like they are being productive.

Also I don't think roden is scum for what's happening right now. I think him and I are at a T v T fight.

Ahh dang it Mala. I’ve done this as scum/wolf. Townread your attacker to try and soften the attack since people live to be townread. Ugh. Tell me I’m wrong.

Anyway I gotta go. I know I missed some things, but I’ll be back later. Ciao.

Granted it's early game and I'm not going to judge anyone not taking completely firm reads at this point too harshly, but do find it interesting Mala feels reluctant to particularly take on anyone at the moment. A clear reluctance which like you say could be wary mafia concerned any strong reads they make of townies will come across as fake and/or manufactured if they can't push said read properly and with good evidence.

Yeah. And to be honest the way I worded that is kinda impossible for her to answer. I guess it's just more of my thought process with Mala.

[ItalianoVD]

Italiano, where's that Scorpious read coming from?

This has not been answered.

It has now.

[ItalianoVD]

Italiano, you should know that doesn't make it wolf indicative.
Perhaps consider this motivation, which is the truth:
I want to advance the game to the fun part asap(solving)
The most effective way to get there is to take stances and note reactions to said stances.
I have not even once stated any of my reads were set in stone - in fact mala has been fairly volatile here in view.
Tl;dr forcing reads advances the gamestate and you should consider people have diffrent opinions on how to play Mafia.

I ask kindly that you leave that point alone and evaluate me based on the content of my posts rather than how you think villagers should play the game.

This post needs to be pinned somewhere.

So tired of “you don’t play like me.. you’re scum”.

My playstyle changes from game to game as I will not subscribe to the alt process.

Okay. So what are

your

thoughts on the game so far.

[ItalianoVD]

Roden and Italian are the two that I've sniffed some scum energy on thus far. Too early to tell if that's accurate or not, because at least with Italian I've seen a few townie energy auras coming off of em.

And here I thought my takes were spicy.

[ItalianoVD]

Roden and Italian are the two that I've sniffed some scum energy on thus far. Too early to tell if that's accurate or not, because at least with Italian I've seen a few townie energy auras coming off of em.

And here I thought my takes were spicy.

[ItalianoVD]

With Italians, it’s mostly been a lot of their stuff looks like it’s been said just to be said rather than them thinking it, almost like a “make the townie convince me they’re town” kinda strategy.

This is interesting. And I would say you're right. I wouldn't totally frame it that way, but yeah. You don't see that coming from a town mindset?

[ItalianoVD]

The antenna line also made a Koopa-FL an in game connection, like it was then trying to put us on some type of stage to either be scum read together, or cause a TvS.

Again yeah. Reading that early interaction between you too pinged me. Even though it was sorta RVS, it just didn't seem like anything. And it was more koopa than you.

[ItalianoVD]

I gotta say I like 221 and 222. Not just for the tone but for letting us in a little bit to the mind of koopa.
+1

[ItalianoVD]

I guess I don’t see Italiano’s reasoning as complex. Looks pretty weak reasoning for the most part.

Almost looks like they wanted you to feel that ease off of them so you’ll town read them.

Wait what? I was trying to get koopa to townread me?

[ItalianoVD]

Ugh, just when I start feeling better about you, you go and post 224.

[ItalianoVD]

Also Mala has not once reacted to Italiano's shade against her, but has replied to mostly everyone pushing her otherwise.

This is my issue. I've given her plenty of things to respond to and I only get a joke. I think?

[ItalianoVD]

I thought I was caught up, guess not. Been reading pg 11 and I'm not that comfortable with HEM seemingly coming to bat for me. Like it's cool in a sense, but I always feel icky when people do it and 265 is just goofy. Like I don't think it makes him scum, but I just never like it.

[ItalianoVD]

I'd assume HEM is fairly town up to this point

Let's get into this since this a bit more.

HEM's early posting when I was feeling out the game was null, you know, when we were going back and forth about charm and whatnot, but I think his positioning around Mala was fair given the context and I didn't think it was scummy. At the time koopa's was more scummy and to a degree NK's, but I didn't see anything wrong with HEM's push.

[ItalianoVD]

I'd assume HEM is fairly town up to this point

Let's get into this since this a bit more.

HEM's early posting when I was feeling out the game was null, you know, when we were going back and forth about charm and whatnot, but I think his positioning around Mala was fair given the context and I didn't think it was scummy. At the time koopa's vote was more scummy and to a degree NK's, but I didn't see anything wrong with HEM's push.

[ItalianoVD]

If you're town, you werent.

Gotcha.

[ItalianoVD]

The Italiano scumread relied on you pulling a strong scum move, and i dont necessarily think that's the case.

I use that tactic a lot as scum, so it kinda like triggered something, but seeing you post more in real time while I'm here's kind of let me feel your personality more, and I don't think that's what you were doing at all.

I also kinda used the wagon on you to ingrain myself into this game more.

Cool. Happy to help.

[ItalianoVD]

I gotta say your case on HEM is pretty dang solid., especially given the responses in 276 and 280. I do wanna think that he is just a townie not thinking, but I don't think so now.

VOTE: humaneatingmonkey

[ItalianoVD]

What's bad about it? In your own words - No vagueness.

It's kinda interesting that you'd think I'd be vague about it or that I would not use my own words.

Anyway, while I was catching up and even before I had to leave, you were saying that you kinda townread me for how I was scumreading you. You also said you vote to provide pressure. Well I didn't think I needed to be pressured as I was pretty open and responsive all game, so the vote was very suspicious to me. Flavor Leaf comes in and says he kinda scumreads me and after no real fight from you, given your previous read on me, you just kinda jumped in headfirst. I gotta say, you feel very malleable as a player, like wherever the wind takes you, you'll just blow with it. It was like that with Mala, you didn't really start pushing her until the rest of us did. You also voted for Scorpious

after

I mentioned it as a hot take solve. I know you said you had him in your solve, but you didn't really expand on it until after the fact iirc. I don't know, like I wanna townread you, but you keep making it hard with these posts and actions man.

[ItalianoVD]

This is also Human's interpretation of what my push was on you, and sure, I understand when he thought I was calling you fluffy, but after clearing it up, he decided to vote me, which is inherently scummy and then went into immediate dismissal mode that was different than his initial posts.

I believe he came into that with the angle of getting into a 1v1 with me to break up Koopa/FL from developing.

I didn't think you were calling me fluffy, so there's that.

[ItalianoVD]

consider: when people post about people, it brings that person to the forefront of their mind, and they go into more depth on them -> what you call "wind blowing", I call natural human psychology. I am willing to listen to others.

I guess we can agree to disagree if you so choose.

Should I explicitly find you a wolf for suddenly pushing HEM

after it's become clear that no one else finds me wolfy

and FL stated a strong read on HEM as well as myself?

Bolded: I've been coming to that conclusion myself. Well I already stated that FL's case on HEM is solid in the midst of me catching up with the live posts. If it seemed like we were crossing in the wind then it wasn't intentional.

[ItalianoVD]

If it seemed like we were crossing in the wind then it wasn't intentional.

If you are town that is.

[ItalianoVD]

Bolded: I've been coming to that conclusion myself.

That's not really clear. What I mean to say is I've been coming to a conclusion that you may be town myself, not jumping on anyone's read.

[ItalianoVD]

I gotta say, you feel very malleable as a player, like wherever the wind takes you, you'll just blow with it.

I agree with this, and I don't think it comes from scum in this situation. they've fought me with my push on you, and then my push on Human, but then ended up coming to agreement after discussion, which I think is townie.

That type of playstyle is very hard to pull off successfully as scum, and I don't think it's happening here, i think they're genuinely analyzing the game atm.

Yeah I get that and I've given that a thought, it's just koopa keeps pinging me as both scum and town.

[ItalianoVD]

I believe that Human is attempting a White Knight pocket attempt on Italiano to lower my presence in the game as scum.

It isn't a chainsaw.

What's a chainsaw? I saw that mentioned twice now

I believe that Human is attempting a White Knight pocket attempt on Italiano to lower my presence in the game as scum.

It isn't a chainsaw.

What's a chainsaw? I saw that mentioned twice now

Player A (Town) pushes Player B (Scum).

Player C (Scum) pushes Player A. <--- that's the chainsaw. They defend their partner by attacking the one thats pushing their partner.

Thanks for explaining this .

You guys seriously don’t know what chainsaw is?

[ItalianoVD]

I’m skimming.

[ItalianoVD]

I also think I feel comfortable parking here now: VOTE: Salad

What kind of pressure do you expect to give on a slot that has done nothing. I’ve seen scum do this countless times. I’ve done it myself. As scum, you don’t want to ruffle too many feathers and most times you feel fine going after players that won’t put up a fight or appear to not be able to put up a fight. This is scum 101.

[ItalianoVD]

If Italiano ever flips wolf that can be fulfilled but that was a joke combined with my confidence in my own play. I think wolves are playing very well and/or there is an uninformed aspect in the mix - which is why the traitor thing was noted - I feel trouble finding a viable trio.

This is cheeky and I don’t think you actually believe I am scum, but you want to throw it out there. Funnily enough only

after

I voted you and FL scumread me. It’s not looking good for you in my eyes. Like I said, I’m trying, but you’re making it very difficult.

[ItalianoVD]

As a matter of fact. I feel way more comfortable here.

VOTE: koopa

Leaf, really look at Joppa again and tell me you don’t see it. I know you are on HEM, but I’m way more set on loops.

[ItalianoVD]

Italiano

talk to me about FL

Can’t talk long. But if FL is scum than he is doing a good job. Don’t care what type of strategy you are using, scum don’t

want

to clear townies. I can maybe if you squint your eyes see some type of benefit to it in the long term, but the way FL has done has not been a great move if scum.

[ItalianoVD]

Wow autocorrected koopa to loops

[ItalianoVD]

Why would us not knowing what a term means even worth bringing up?

Your account has been here since 2015. It’s not a big deal it’s just I scratch my head when older accounts ask about things they should know already. To be fair maybe some of these terms are very very new and you’ve been gone for a while so I’ll digress.

[ItalianoVD]

you dont seriously believe scum won't clear townies

I’m not saying that they won’t, I’m saying they don’t want to. Scum can clear townies and form a block and go after their partner and get major towncred and then ride that block to victory. Their’s a world where that could be Leaf’s plan and him going after you is something you’ve both agreed to, but for right now I’m gonna deal in what’s more probable.

[ItalianoVD]

Early solve attempt is Koopa, HEM, and most likely one of the quiet ones..

Could be as simple Facebones.. but that’s reachy this early.

Italiano, why is scorpious villagery to you? Remove the fact that they are voting me - that is wrong + you should consider thought processes over ego.

When did I say Scorpious was villagery?

[ItalianoVD]

It's implicit in how youre acting.

How and when was it implied? I’d like you to give me examples.

[ItalianoVD]

maybe you're just scum Italiano

Yup, that’s it.

[ItalianoVD]

Italiano's telling me right now that not only he finds FL's flip on his slot believable (which I don't see), he's telling me that he believes FL clearing him there is town-indicative.

Is this an accurate representation, Mr. Sir ItalianoVD MD?

Why yes it is my good monkey sir.

[ItalianoVD]

maybe you're just scum Italiano

So HEM is annoyed with me not scumreading Leaf with him and instead of seeing the possibility of Leaf just being town he comes to the conclusion that I am scum. I have that right?

[ItalianoVD]

I have a do set traps as town and if I’m to believe what Leaf said then I see him as town. I have no issue with it. Where are you know re: Leaf? Same? Changed, etc.?

[ItalianoVD]

@koopa: What was your case on Scorpious? I don’t wanna tell you mine and possibly give scum!you ammo.

[ItalianoVD]

@NK15 why did you wanna know about Scorpious and not Roden or koopa when I threw out my hot take solve?

[ItalianoVD]

So take in that thought of me playing this way with a playerlist who isn't that familiar with me.

So did you join this game so that no one would be able to catch you as scum. Clever boy!

[ItalianoVD]

So take in that thought of me playing this way with a playerlist who isn't that familiar with me.

So did you join this game so that no one would be able to catch you as scum. Clever boy!

Any updated thoughts?

If by updated you mean different then no, if you mean more then yes. I’m sorry but I think it’s amusing to see players trying to sort Leaf. I say just stop, lol. Nobody’s gonna do it. I assume Leaf plays the game similarly regardless of alignment and he is laughing either way at players trying to do so. If Leaf is scum then I assume his partner(s) have already voted him or currently are and he has voted them or currently are. If he is town then scum has voted him or currently are and he has more than likely voted scum or currently is. Again I’m assuming he is town because I’ve had enough content and interactions and reactions from him with me and other slots to come to that conclusion. If I’m wrong, at this point I wouldn’t even be mad losing to scum!Leaf. Leaf you better not be scum though!

[ItalianoVD]

Oh really, I had no idea April was Leaf. Interesting. I remember I played a couple games with April, I think. I remember scumreading her early because of tone and interactions, but she eventually ended up in my townbin over the course of the game and I ended up being right.

Even though it’s an alt, I’m assuming the underlying foundation of how Leaf plays is the same. Correct me if I’m wrong, but that’s interesting to me.

[ItalianoVD]

Incredibly - I went through some meta on Scorpious.. and I am shocked to find that their WOLFPLAY has more depth than their villager play somehow.
When comparing:
This wolf game from a game called Internal Affairs:
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=88949&user_select[]=26244
and this Villager game from a game called Polish Rap:
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=88570&user_select[]=26244

Also interesting tidbit I found in the wolf chat:
Subject: Infernal Affairs Mafia PT

Oh, yeah. You should know that.

I’ll be scum read by page 4. I just come off as scum all the time. I usually get out of it but. There will be a push on me. I’m just not that good at this, but I like the game so much.

Since you’re in the spirit of doing meta dives, why not do mine and let me know what you come up with.

[ItalianoVD]

And I also want you to tell me how you feel about Scorpious

They barely have any content, so it's hard to have any kind of feeling towards them. I do think activity is alignment indicative for them though.

So then you

do

know how to feel about them.

Just checked the timer and we still have an entire week to go. Just chill and let people push and prod naturally instead of chainsawing our efforts to case anyone who isn't your current top priority. If we near EoD and somehow nobody has had anything to say about Scorpius and they're still not playing, then yeah let's hard pressure them because the game state would imply they're just scum at that point.

But you already said activity is alignment indicative for them so the lack thereof should signify scum even right now right? Also how full proof is that strategy for you?

[ItalianoVD]

VOTE: Malakittens
Unless there's a hidden dimension of play that I'm not really interested in talking about just yet

VOTE: Malakittens

VOTE: Malakittens

Choo choo.

Yeah. I am reading through and Scorpious is 10x more lost as a villager than as a wolf

That really is an unfortunate meta to have. Let me switch it up to what I have noticed lately from the others: VOTE: Mala

So we’re really back here huh?

[ItalianoVD]

826 is a massive overreaction to what I assume is in response to 825.

[ItalianoVD]

I think Jackson's reaction to me finding Scorpious as town is incredibly wolfy.

How do you know that’s what's it for?

[ItalianoVD]

Hello all. I wanted to play this game so badly with you all that I replaced in. I need to read a bit so bear with me.

Yoo Andres! Good to have you bro! This is gonna be good!

[ItalianoVD]

VOTE: Roden

[ItalianoVD]

I do see a world where my Italiano town read is incorrect based on my judgement being clouded by their town reading on me, but again, a paranoia piece.

Well then we’re in the same boat. I’m only townreading you on your play thus far and the tone to most of your posts, but I don’t know what you’re capable of. I assume it’s within your ability to fake tone and wording as scum and also paranoia. You are not a full freak read, more like yellowish green or yellow.

[ItalianoVD]

At this point I’m thinking Scorpious and koopa or just emotional town battling for ego. @koopa: I’m getting a better understanding of how you play and why you do what you do.

Town: Malcolm, Scorpious
Townlean: Leaf, koopa, mala, nk15
Neutral: HEM, Andres, Math
Scumlean: Roden, kitty, jacksonvirgo

[ItalianoVD]

I do see a world where my Italiano town read is incorrect based on my judgement being clouded by their town reading on me, but again, a paranoia piece.

Well then we’re in the same boat. I’m only townreading you on your play thus far and the tone to most of your posts, but I don’t know what you’re capable of. I assume it’s within your ability to fake tone and wording as scum and also paranoia. You are not a full

freak

read, more like yellowish green or yellow.

Posting on the phone is so frustrating. “Green” NOT Freak.

[ItalianoVD]

Uh oh a list, make sure you dont show Scorpious

Lol. I figured it’s time I give at least where my head is. It’s not extensive yet because it’s only Day 1.

[ItalianoVD]

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=86642
Did a meta dive on italiano to see if I could eliminate them from my PoE - looks like this game, is similar to this one in terms of play.
There are low intensity wolf and town games too I saw - but this stood out. I read their ISO and thought similar things I did here. They pushed players in a similar way.

In contrast look at this scum game.
viewtopic.php?f=23&t=84138

This town game
viewtopic.php?f=54&t=86606&user_select%5B%5D=34384

vs.

This one
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=84025&user_select%5B%5D=34384

[ItalianoVD]

I’ve been getting the idea like others have said that I’m scumreading townies and townreading scum. I also like to point out that a pr claim is not a free pass to get townread. I’m not throwing shade koopa, but I don’t think anybody should townread you based on that claim. They should townread you on your play and how you’ve formulated your reads and such.

I think JV's energy shift and sudden cooperativeness is wolf indicative when called out as HEM's partner, as current thread consensus is HEM wolf and thus tying to HEM is an awkward spot right now
I do not support a chain elimination on a wolf HEM flip but should be considered as a push on day 2.
I find the responses from JV here to be fairly wrong in terms of the fact it doesn't remove any viability for partner equity, and the way they speak feels a bit like they know HEM will flip wolf and are covering up for the fact.

I’ve actually gotten the opposite feeling reading his posts. I think he genuinely believes HEM is town, but he is keeping in mind what HEM is capable of as scum, which I think is a townie mindset.

Overall I also feel there is a lack of genuineness to the HEM/JV interactions in the sense they are interacting with eachother a lot but JV isnt worried about HEM's place in the gamestate as a townread of theirs? Essentially I'm accusing them of theatering

I mean let’s be serious, what type of reaction would you want him to have for HEM at 2-3 votes. No wagon has been threatened to be pushed over and there is still time. I think this would have more merit if the wagon had gotten close to elimination (i.e. E2/E1)

Even that exchange between him and HEM about HEM’s scumgame makes me kinda think they’re both town. I mean if they’re both scum doing theater than they got me. Naturally though I just feel that the more probable answer is that they’re both town.

[ItalianoVD]

Personally, I think Roden's the best fade today.

Gives loads of information, good chance of scum, most of the game doesn't get their point, and theyre just pushing like I flipped a narrative, when I really didn't.

Everyone else I can make a bigger case for being town, such as HEM, such as Mala, even NK15 has a stronger town case than Roden.

But there is a lot of good discussion to have on all those other slots that we likely can come to better conclusions with extra flips and a Night Kill + PR actions.

I think Roden's just the overall best fade today.

Let's kill HEM (:

Yeah let’s not.

[ItalianoVD]

Personally, I think Roden's the best fade today.

Gives loads of information, good chance of scum, most of the game doesn't get their point, and theyre just pushing like I flipped a narrative, when I really didn't.

Everyone else I can make a bigger case for being town, such as HEM, such as Mala, even NK15 has a stronger town case than Roden.

But there is a lot of good discussion to have on all those other slots that we likely can come to better conclusions with extra flips and a Night Kill + PR actions.

I think Roden's just the overall best fade today.

Let's kill HEM (:

Yeah let’s not.

Why?

I think he’s town.

[ItalianoVD]

disregard the kopopa quote above

Ahh kopopa that’s a new one. Joppa and loops wasn’t enough for the autocorrect I see.

[ItalianoVD]

disregard the kopopa quote above

Ahh kopopa that’s a new one. Joppa and loops wasn’t enough for the autocorrect I see.

the really sad part.. I typed that on a keyboard

Oh...

[ItalianoVD]

You still have much to learn, young koopaling. Especially if Mala is actually scum here.

Truer words have never been spoken.

[ItalianoVD]

Roden is transparently town here. The suggestion to eliminate them is laughable at best.

It’s not because he agrees with you is it?

[ItalianoVD]

If no one sees Roden is scum here you’re not trying. Koopa what are you on brother?

Do me a favor and vote Roden. Okay?

[ItalianoVD]

Why do you townread mala?

Can you stop asking the same questions expecting a different answer? Mala is townread period. Not universally, but enough that she shouldn’t be the lim today. We are going for Roden today.

[ItalianoVD]

We’ve let you run rampant koopa, but it’s to reign it in. Yes we all know you think you’re an amazing mafia player but it’s time for you to

[ItalianoVD]

Why do you townread mala?

Can you stop asking the same questions expecting a different answer? Mala is townread period. Not universally, but enough that she shouldn’t be the lim today. We are going for Roden today.

Why is roden wolf?

Don’t ask questions. Just follow. Vote Roden.

[ItalianoVD]

VOTE: italiano

Stop. Don’t get emotional. We are not going for Mala if I have anything to say about it.

[ItalianoVD]

You cannot discredit me by calling me emotional.

This is the only thing I’m gonna say about it because I’m not gonna do the back and forth with you.

I am not discrediting in the least, so I’ll say this. Your “actions” have been emotional. The things you have done have been emotional. You also have said on many occasions how experienced you are, which I am not denying, but geez dude you are making it hard for people to sift through what needs to be sifted through because you have taken over everything.

[ItalianoVD]

I’m not telling you how to play, but I’m telling you how to play.

[ItalianoVD]

@Italiano - Kitty is the most likely Roden scum partner for you as well? I might be willing to move there. Nobody else sees the RodenScum like we do, which is just wild, but yeah.

Yeah. I’ve been feeling Kitty for a while, but wanted to see if more people would get in and not enough have imo. Maybe though?

VOTE: Kitty

[ItalianoVD]

What is your read on me koopa?

[ItalianoVD]

Then we both had that paranoia of each other.

And still probably do honestly.

[ItalianoVD]

JV, what has made you iffy about me? What would like to know?

[ItalianoVD]

what would *you* like to know

[ItalianoVD]

JV, what has made you iffy about me? What would like to know?

Did I say that specifically? I just have you in the PoE.

No you didn’t. Just wanted to know if there was a specific reason to be in the poe?

[ItalianoVD]

Nah, I just don't have a strong read on you either way.

My gifs haven’t convinced you yet?



I gotta do better.

[ItalianoVD]

Kitty is genuinely parsing the game. The final quote - shows that Kitty is questioning Italiano for something they said before that they believe is contradictory to what they are saying in the moment.

Go read 224 and tell me what it says?

[ItalianoVD]

Kitty is genuinely parsing the game. The final quote - shows that Kitty is questioning Italiano for something they said before that they believe is contradictory to what they are saying in the moment.

Go read 224 and tell me what it says?

It says I thought you were a wolf trying to distance? tf are you trying to say.

Now go read 368. Now I want you to tell me what Kitty is talking about and who he is talking to.

[ItalianoVD]

Italiano, what do you think of the progression slip I caught?

So are you saying that Leaf fake progresses from scumreading Roden to townreading Roden to scumreading him again?

[ItalianoVD]

Koopa, what is the gamestate?

[ItalianoVD]

Koopa, what is the gamestate?

[ItalianoVD]

No answer my question. What is your interpretation of the gamestate?

[ItalianoVD]

I do not understand your question.

Did Flavor Leaf hack your account?

Bruh.



How can you argue a point and you don’t even understand what you’re arguing.

The game state encompasses the entirety of the game. Interactions, reactions, posts, votes, etc. It is not specific to any one player or one thing.

I think what

you’re

saying is Leaf didn’t specifically say

why

he scumread Roden with actual posts, a point both Roden and NK drove into the ground, so that makes him scum. But as I pointed out it’s not just posts, it actions and reactions. I myself thought Roden was scum and still do for how he positioned himself around Mala. The second time as well. I just don’t see what you see. Maybe you’ll have to explain like I’m 5. Cause I don’t get it.

[ItalianoVD]

Replacing flavor leaf

Dude. Seriously?

[ItalianoVD]

So, I’m gonna need someone else to deal with koopa and his nonsense. I’m stepping away from the game for a while.

[ItalianoVD]

I had to step away because I didn’t want to say anything harmful to you koopa. You took me there.

You are pretty unbearable, but I believe you are town (which makes it even more frustrating). Although you are and have been playing like someone who is informed, which could be a reason you are playing the way you are.

To save myself some stress and frustration and out of respect for you and the game. I won’t be addressing you for now. Thanks.

[ItalianoVD]

I lost a Leaf, but I gained a Gamma.

Happy to see you brother.

[ItalianoVD]

Bruh, why does this game feel like we’re reading the scumchat.

[ItalianoVD]

What are your thoughts right now Scorpius?

[ItalianoVD]

Common procedure is to let the investigative claim live a day because if they get limmed, wow you hanged a crucial role.[/quote]
I would assume common procedure is not to claim in the first place, especially within the context of this game. And look at what you said: “live a day”. Scum want to bide time because of the very fact that

“Common procedure is to let the investigative claim live a day”

Now I know the action is really nai, but as I said earlier claiming pr, at least in my mind, does not and should not clear you as town. If I found you scummy before the claim, I’m gonna still find you scummy after the claim, more or less based on the context and why you did it, to be fair.

All claims in this game have been pointless and stupid. This game is about deduction and strategy, not which pr can lead us to victory. I won’t be budging from within my limpool. And please don’t ask what it is, if you wanna know go find it within my iso please. I’m kinda done with this day.

[ItalianoVD]

Let’s try that again…

Common procedure is to let the investigative claim live a day because if they get limmed, wow you hanged a crucial role.

I would assume common procedure is not to claim in the first place, especially within the context of this game. And look at what you said: “live a day”. Scum want to bide time because of the very fact that

“Common procedure is to let the investigative claim live a day”

Now I know the action is really nai, but as I said earlier claiming pr, at least in my mind, does not and should not clear you as town. If I found you scummy before the claim, I’m gonna still find you scummy after the claim, more or less based on the context and why you did it, to be fair.

All claims in this game have been pointless and stupid. This game is about deduction and strategy, not which pr can lead us to victory. I won’t be budging from within my limpool. So if anybody wants to know who I’ll be voting for today

[ItalianoVD]

To me they've been playing a very careful game so far for the most part which could see them end up landing on either side. Clever mafia play if they're scum but it's certainly possible.

Careful? I haven’t heard that one before. How so?

[ItalianoVD]

Eh, I'd say Koopa's claim was premature and unnecessary, but Jackson's felt reasonable given the gamestate and their concerns over how Koopa was using their role to read the game, and NK15 was in danger of being eliminated. I agree with your fundamental point that it's quite possible somebody here could be lying though.

Okay yeah, I’ll admit Jackson’s claim was fair since he’s pretty much a miller and millers wanna claim early, but was NK15 really in danger of getting eliminated, maybe with ghost votes, but not actual votes. What was he at 3 votes? So was Mala and HEM and there was a general stalling to the game at that point in time, especially with Leaf repping out.

[ItalianoVD]

To me they've been playing a very careful game so far for the most part which could see them end up landing on either side. Clever mafia play if they're scum but it's certainly possible.

Careful? I haven’t heard that one before. How so?

I mean it (mostly) as a compliment! I don't really think you've been scummy so far, but your play has had a nice balance of being active enough to be noticed and engaged, while not being too involved in certain major conflicts or disagreements. Given how bogged down the game got during the protracted FL/Koopa arguments, I think a (presumably) clever player like yourself could easily blend into the town as mafia. I'm more approaching this from a POV where one of my main suspects will probably end up being wrong, and someone I don't necessarily think looks too mafia will end up being scum. You're certainly not on my elimination pool for D1 though.

Oh no, I didn’t take it as an insult, I’ve just never been called a careful player and I’ve been called a lot of things lol.

[ItalianoVD]

This game has been draining and I’m trying to imagine if it’s a scum tactic (which it could very well be.) But that would mean mostly all my town reads are scum and to be honest it wouldn’t even surprise me.

[ItalianoVD]

What is your limpool? I am sorry I know it’s probably obvious but with the amount of posts it’s all confused in my head.

Sorry just found this.

Limpool: Kitty, Roden, HEM

[ItalianoVD]

Scorpious have you pocketed me?

Surely Scorpious cannot be the wagon for today.

Who’s here?

[ItalianoVD]

Let’s compromise people.

[ItalianoVD]

Agreed

[ItalianoVD]

I’m not liking that wagon.

[ItalianoVD]

Okay let’s try this.

VOTE: NK15

[ItalianoVD]

That was such an unnecessary hammer.

[ItalianoVD]

im not sure scorp flips green

Well then you’re partners if so.

[ItalianoVD]

Is Andre/Kitty/HEM a possible mafia team here?

I think team is Andre+Math+Malcolm/Kitty if NK15 is not faking.

ironic.

What are you thinking?

[ItalianoVD]

Also I think this kill confirms that scum don't have a Roleblocker.

It would've been easy to get Koopa mis-elim'd by just blocking them every night and letting them cause chaos with their day play.

Though maybe they didn't think Koopa was actually all that chaotic, potentially because their reads were actually accurate or someone on the scum team got spooked once they revealed they were Koba all along.

This legit sounds like a post in the scumchat. Also, why block a pr when you can just kill it, hence why koopa is dead.

And yeah I’m doing this.

VOTE: Nk15

[ItalianoVD]

Read koopa’s iso on pg 4 and you’ll get an idea of where they’re head was.

[ItalianoVD]

I think I’m the Towniest Town that ever Towned. Not sure what there is to discuss here.

VOTE: Andresvmb

Guilty!

Like why is this being just blindly trusted?

VOTE: NK15

I hope you don’t think this clears you Andres, it’s just I think it’s better NK15 go first.

[ItalianoVD]

Gamma, you think NK15 and Andres are laying a scum gambit or should I let it go and just vote Andres?

[ItalianoVD]

It doesn’t make sense which is why they would do it.

[ItalianoVD]

It doesn’t make sense which is why they would do it.

Responding to 2947 & 2948

[ItalianoVD]

Okay I have a ghost vote on Andres.

[ItalianoVD]

Get to E-1 and I’ll hammer.

[ItalianoVD]

It doesn’t make sense which is why they would do it.

Responding to 2947 & 2948

Pls respond to 2951/2970

Okay cool. I just wanted to know what NK was capable of, I haven’t played with him since my very first game on site.

[ItalianoVD]

It doesn’t make sense which is why they would do it.

Responding to 2947 & 2948

Pls respond to 2951/2970

Okay cool. I just wanted to know what NK was capable of, I haven’t played with him since my very first game on site.

I was also thinking of heavy WIFOM in my head and it seemed like the right move.

[ItalianoVD]

UNVOTE: NK15

[ItalianoVD]

Alright let's go.

VOTE: HEM

[ItalianoVD]

And here you said I was charming. I should've known you were trying to butter me up.

[ItalianoVD]

If HEM is mafia then we're all good and we eliminate Jackson surely?

Is this a slip?

[ItalianoVD]

If HEM is mafia then we're all good and we eliminate Jackson surely?

Is this a slip?

Nah that was a typo. Meant if Jackson isn't.

If Jackson isn't? That doesn't really make sense to me. That's very interesting wording in 3088

[ItalianoVD]

What happened?

[ItalianoVD]

Oh I voted NK15 thinking he was pulling a scum gambit on his partner? A vote I rescinded and a point I clarified with someone who is used to playing with scum!NK? That?

[ItalianoVD]

And sure if you wanna frame it like I was ‘defending’ the slot you can. My actual point was, it was a waste of a vote because there was a high chance nothing would come of it. Nice shade by the way.

I’d still like to go for Roden and/or Kitty once we figure out what’s going on with HEM.

[ItalianoVD]

Spoiler:

Anyway for now my hot take fresh off the press…

Scum team: koopa, Roden, Scorpious.

Honestly if I wasn’t leaning toward Flavor Leaf being town I’d think he and koopa were partners.

I think Mala is the LHF for today.

Well off to bed y’all everyone have a great night!

If no one sees Roden is scum here you’re not trying. Koopa what are you on brother?

Do me a favor and vote Roden. Okay?

Why do you townread mala?

Can you stop asking the same questions expecting a different answer? Mala is townread period. Not universally, but enough that she shouldn’t be the lim today. We are going for Roden today.

Why is roden wolf?

Don’t ask questions. Just follow. Vote Roden.

Like this has been ad nauseam. Your reads have been wrong and you aren't bothering to explain them.

Personally, I think Roden's the best fade today.

Gives loads of information, good chance of scum, most of the game doesn't get their point, and theyre just pushing like I flipped a narrative, when I really didn't.

Everyone else I can make a bigger case for being town, such as HEM, such as Mala, even NK15 has a stronger town case than Roden.

But there is a lot of good discussion to have on all those other slots that we likely can come to better conclusions with extra flips and a Night Kill + PR actions.

I think Roden's just the overall best fade today.

Let's kill HEM (:

Yeah let’s not.

Why?

I think he’s town.

This one also needs to be explained. It sounds like your read may have changed here, and if it has it would be good to know why.

Listen, frankly I’ve been trying to keep up since midday Day 1 and I’m failing immensely. I’ve basically given up trying to truly catchup and decided to just follow the events live.

Early on I thought HEM’s initial take on Mala was in good faith. I don’t agree with Gamma here regarding that it wasn’t. I could see why Mala was getting the heat she was and I wasn’t totally against it. I did start to feel some townie frustration from Mala though, so when I saw you jump on, it made me suspicious and then koopa and then Kitty. I really started to feel like her wagon was scum driven and you and Kitty jumped out to me. It was not who you were voting for, but how you did it. And I know both or all scum weren’t likely on the wagon but that’s where my head was.

Also at the time it felt like a possible pocket attempt on HEM with 69 coupled with 119. And the overall way you were positioning yourself around the two slots (HEM/Mala) was highly suspicious to me. From what I can remember you’ve been kinda following HEM around this whole game. And if he is town, then imo it can point to you being scum.

What has changed that should make me think otherwise? I mean if I’m wrong about you, then show me why. If I’ve missed something somewhere, which I probably did, then point me to it. You just saying I’m wrong means nothing to me.

[ItalianoVD]

It’s been hard for me to get a solid read on HEM, which is why it feels inconsistent. I use tone as one of the tools I use to read people and some of the tones of his posts sound townie and others sound scummy. I really wouldn’t be surprised with whatever he flips at this point as I could believe both. I didn’t truly believe Leaf’s entire case. Independently HEM feels town, but because I felt sorta strong that Leaf was town maybe he was seeing something I didn’t which is why I placed HEM right in the middle of my reads.

[ItalianoVD]

Spoiler:

Oh I voted NK15 thinking he was pulling a scum gambit on his partner? A vote I rescinded and a point I clarified with someone who is used to playing with scum!NK? That?

It's a weird order of events.

NK15: "I have a guilty on Andres" *votes Andres*
Italiano: "Roden scum slipped" *votes NK15*
Andres: "I'm town" *votes NK15*

It doesn't even make sense to vote NK15 here first. You only considered two worlds here: it was either a scum gambit and they were both scum, or Andres was just caught and NK15 was town. Andres is scum in both worlds, so why did you vote NK15? If you thought he could've been bussing, why not just...let him bus?

And sure if you wanna frame it like I was ‘defending’ the slot you can. My actual point was, it was a waste of a vote because there was a high chance nothing would come of it. Nice shade by the way.

I’d still like to go for Roden and/or Kitty once we figure out what’s going on with HEM.

I'm not framing anything. You blatantly defended flipped scum after they got hit with a guilty. You didn't say anything about your suspicions of a scum gambit until later on, you just shaded me then voted NK15 without addressing the guilty, or really even accusing NK15 of anything.

Feel free to scum case me though. I've been waiting for one, but all you've done all game is call me scum and complain that everyone is bad if they don't vote me.

Don’t @ me, if you read all my Day 2 posts, everyone can see where my head was. Why are you even asking these questions expecting a different answer? Come on bruh.

[ItalianoVD]

UNVOTE: HEM

[ItalianoVD]

@JV can you explain your Malcolm case again? I don’t get that.

I never made a case, in fact I was pretty heavily town-reading them up until recently when I realised that they seemed to bounce around and avoid direct arguments against them.

I don’t follow. Can you elaborate?

I have a feeling there’s a deep wolf stuff doesn’t add up here.

I just don't feel HEM is scum anymore, or at least I am less confident that I am willing for them to re-read and give thoughts, and Malcom is who I think is probably the best bet otherwise. I don't see how scum!italiano would be so obvious when their partner has been red-checked.

Actually, when you put it that way I think Italiano’s play around the guilty was rather textbook scumplay. The Roden “scum slip” push is an attempt to create an additional escape route.
VOTE: ItalianoVD

Oh? Could you explain further? I don't see why scum!italiano would make it painfully obvious and vote the tracker which guiltied their partner, given the partner was also just a Goon.

@JV can you explain your Malcolm case again? I don’t get that.

I never made a case, in fact I was pretty heavily town-reading them up until recently when I realised that they seemed to bounce around and avoid direct arguments against them.

I don’t follow. Can you elaborate?

I have a feeling there’s a deep wolf stuff doesn’t add up here.

I just don't feel HEM is scum anymore, or at least I am less confident that I am willing for them to re-read and give thoughts, and Malcom is who I think is probably the best bet otherwise. I don't see how scum!italiano would be so obvious when their partner has been red-checked.

Actually, when you put it that way I think Italiano’s play around the guilty was rather textbook scumplay. The Roden “scum slip” push is an attempt to create an additional escape route.
VOTE: ItalianoVD

Oh? Could you explain further? I don't see why scum!italiano would make it painfully obvious and vote the tracker which guiltied their partner, given the partner was also just a Goon.

If not braced properly, a guilty can rattle a scum player to make moves that be plainly seen as covering for their buddy. I’ve actually blown my game up in the past by doing that.

Think like JV Gamma. And you’ve played scum with me before. This ain’t it.

[ItalianoVD]

My bad. Meant to condense those quotes.

[ItalianoVD]

I felt Math’s 2929 helped me along. I didn’t feel alone in my big brain thinking lol. I would do it again if I had to do it again.

Anyway in the mean time, anyone up for a Kitty wagon.

VOTE: Kitty

[ItalianoVD]

I felt Math’s 2929 helped me along. I didn’t feel alone in my big brain thinking lol. I would do it again if I had to do it again.

Anyway in the mean time, anyone up for a Kitty wagon.

VOTE: Kitty

Uhm what? How exactly did I help? How does that connect to Kitty?

I am more confused so I want to see what others are doing.

I am resetting so I am not going to veto anything and just sort of listening.

I want to solve the contradictions and see what scum are doing so the best way to do that is see what happens

Sorry yeah these two events aren’t correlated. I’m not trying to shade you or anything, I’m simply saying I didn’t trust what was happening when NK15 came out with the guilty. When I read your post it was a mind-meld, even though it wasn’t actually a solid thought and was more of a passing possibility, I still was like “oh okay someone else is thinking too.” That’s all I meant by it helped me. I know I didn’t say it per se, but I’m not gonna always say what’s on my mind, especially not in this game.

[ItalianoVD]

And yeah, I get you on the reset and I kinda feel the same, but I’m not trying to read. I don’t generally see anything in the gamestate other then flipped scum and two dead town prs that has changed my mind on my early thoughts. I guess I’ll wait for Roden to respond to me and see what’s up there.

[ItalianoVD]

Sorry I was asleep.

I think JV is still town in this situation. I don’t like HEM, but then again haven’t liked him for a while.
Malcom is still prob town
Math/Gamma is prob town.
Roden could be prob town

So my Poe is {HEM, Kitty & IVD}

Silly question: Where is Mala?

I hope she is alright IRL, I'm hesitant to turbo push her for lurking again since it's known she is lurking for IRL reasons.

I hope so too. I only asked where she was and did not suggest a turbo push. This is sus.

I think there’s a scum in Kitty/Italiano/Malcolm

You think I’m scum and that I’m partners with Kitty, so fypovs why not help me bus.

[ItalianoVD]

That’s not at all what I said?

I found a suspicious post from Kitty.

Based on that and how the votes are, I suspect a scum in you/Kitty/Malcolm.

Where did you get partners from that?

I assumed that’s what you meant because I read Mala’s post first, but yeah the wording is different with yours. Apologies.

[ItalianoVD]

That sounds fake.

VOTE: Italiano

What sounds fake? My explanation? Lol smh. Are you scum?

[ItalianoVD]

I wanted to get to the Scorpious wagon, but Day 2 was Day 2 and now Day 3 is on me, but I’m at least content in knowing that this a direction Malcolm is going. It was a bad wagon period.

[ItalianoVD]

Scorpious have you pocketed me?

Surely Scorpious cannot be the wagon for today.

Who’s here?

Let’s compromise people.

I’m not liking that wagon.

Okay let’s try this.

VOTE: NK15

That was such an unnecessary hammer.

Italiano has seemed suss for some of today but this was their reaction to the Scorpious wagon at the time. I'm not sure how beneficial it would have been for mafia to continue going for a claimed role player when a town wagon was right there...Scorpious was a bit of a rubbish wagon but it seemed reasonable enough at time to plenty that Italiano could have had cover joining it if they are mafia.

The other option is mafia deliberately chose to keep someone off the wagon as a misdirect on D2, before we obviously went for Andre. But if Italiano is faking and staying off the Scorpious wagon, knowing it could give them town-cred, why target NK15 instead? Plenty of other players they could vote for who hadn't claimed at all.

Whether this was for show or not depends on people’s perception. Me saying it wasn’t means absolutely nothing if people already see me as scum because it’s only fmpov. But for you to bring this up makes me feel even stronger about you as town, unless you are white knighting me which isn’t impossible, but this is a good point to bring up.

[ItalianoVD]

Also, Roden’s push on me is quite skewed given the arguments.

Roden’s case against me is:

1) I defended Andres’ slot.
2) I voted for NK15 over Andres’ slot.
3) I voted for HEM even though I said I townread him.

784 is where Roden defends Andres’ slot and elaborated in 790

HEM, Kitty myself and Roden ‘defended’ Andres’ slot. But why were we saying it? It’s poor play in general and not alignment indicative.

[ItalianoVD]

That sounds fake.

VOTE: Italiano

What sounds fake? My explanation? Lol smh. Are you scum?

The apology. I was in a hurry as I was getting ready for work.

Okay, so don’t apologize. Like what?

[ItalianoVD]

I wanted to get to the Scorpious wagon, but Day 2 was Day 2 and now Day 3 is on me, but I’m at least content in knowing that this a direction Malcolm is going. It was a bad wagon period.

I think this is a stretch. I thought Scorpious was scum when I voted them.

Just because a wagon flips town doesn’t mean the wagon is bad as a whole.

I disagree. Scorpious was a fatigue elimination. For me that’s a poor excuse given we had time to not vote there. I’m convinced the other wagons didn’t push through because of scum interference. I wanna give you the benefit doubt here given that you’ve been working and whatnot, I know that can be stressful, but your responses to questions and comments have been less than ideal when I’m reading.

You were responding pretty flippantly when discussing said Scorpious wagon with Malcolm. Like if your town you should wanna cover every area of the gamestate. I’m trying to find a good reason why you’d wanna look elsewhere than vca on a major wagon in this game and I can’t find one.

[ItalianoVD]

Also, Roden’s push on me is quite skewed given the arguments.

Roden’s case against me is:

1) I defended Andres’ slot.
2) I voted for NK15 over Andres’ slot.
3) I voted for HEM even though I said I townread him.

784 is where Roden defends Andres’ slot and elaborated in 790

HEM, Kitty myself and Roden ‘defended’ Andres’ slot. But why were we saying it? It’s poor play in general and not alignment indicative.

Let me make this clearer. What I mean to say is koopa’s vote on a basically empty slot wasn’t helping anything. Calling it out is nai. If I’m scum for doing that, then you’re all scum. You good with that?

Furthermore, I think you trying to use that as a case on me is very poor and you must have forgot your actions. Anyway I’ll wait for you to respond before rendering final judgment read wise.

[ItalianoVD]

@Tucker: I was not trying to shade you with my questioning of your post. I didn't understand what you were saying. That was all.

@JV: Are you following up on Malcolm? Or just throwing another Gambit.

[ItalianoVD]

Prodding humaneatingmonkey and ItalianoVD

Dang I didn't even know I was gone that long.

[ItalianoVD]

Prodding humaneatingmonkey and ItalianoVD

Also, don't read into this. It's coincidental.

[ItalianoVD]

I'm not sure how you could think my positioning on the Mala wagon was suspicious if that's your only reason. I voted all the way back on page 3 during RVS, essentially starting the wagon, and I questioned her further and made some follow up posts when she was around to talk.

Scum can’t do that? That’s my point.

it's more for getting warned by the mod thing.

I actually enjoy mafia sometimes and i really dont want to be banned

esp

for something so stupid of "oh she's being self conscious" lets vote her!!!

Ok but we're in the RVS stage/trying to leave RVS, there isn't a whole lot to go off of so we're voting for whatever reason makes at least some sense and then seeing how others/the game state reacts. I feel like you've experienced enough to know this.

But to say "just vote me out so I don't get banned" instead of picking literally any other option is just ???

Like, if you're town this just fucks us over because you're essentially just making yourself a policy elim that provides no info upon your flip. Everybody who votes you in this scenario can essentially do it for free because they can just say "she asked to die so I voted for her". Though obviously if you're scum then this is just AtE to get people to back off.

Another layer to this is that, in that game you were scum in that I've been referencing, Toogeloo did the exact same thing you're currently doing, got town read for it, and did end up being town. I feel like that has to be at the back of your mind here, and that you're trying to get town read by emulating that same behavior.

^^^^^^

I feel like this post in particular shows that I was genuinely trying to solve her alignment, and that I had a more complex reason for voting her then just "jumping on". And when it got to a point that I reconsidered my read, I backed off and gave my reasoning when questioned by HEM.

Then why did you jump back on Mala in 804? After HEM did. Don’t remember anything changing at that point. And you didn’t actually talk about Mala until 2533.

WRT posts 69 and 119: could you explain what exactly makes you think they're pockety? 69 is just a town read, and 119 is me saying that HEM and I were making the same argument. I also heavily disagree with the notion that I'm following HEM around, we mind melded early on but we've also disagreed on a few reads.

I felt like there had been enough content for you to comment on at the time you posted 69 and yet you picked a random quote from HEM, say it’s town and add a non-game advancing follow up. It was fluffy. 119 just adds on to what I felt with 69. Not to mention 804 1078 1089 1114. To say you weren’t or haven’t been following HEM around is pretty false.

I also wanted to point out 981. It seemed like you were trying to get everyone to look away from you and HEM as partners, but it did nothing for the T/S scenario and because you were saying it, you were the scum and HEM was the town in my mind. Malcolm’s 969 somewhat alluded to this thought as well.

Another thing not related to HEM that kinda raised my eyebrows was this.

As heavily as you read Flavor as scum it was an issue imo with you townreading Gamma so easily. Why couldn’t Gamma still be scum knowing your history and changing it up so that you would “townread” him.

"What has changed that should make me think otherwise?" is a really weird thought process to have here because you only referenced posts from the literal beginning of the game. You're basing your scum read on me from something I said on Day 1 page 5, like has your read not evolved at all in the span of 125 pages and two in game days? And now you want me to dig through all of those pages to prove to you that I'm town? You can case me and I'll respond, that's fine, but I'm not going to dig through my ISO to quote posts that I think are townie without context.

Yes the burden of proof is on you and no, I’m basing my scumread on the entirety of the game and from moments that I remember from you that stand out to me. Like I said, nothing has changed that has made me think otherwise and if I had to choose between you and Kitty to be town, I’d choose Kitty.

[ItalianoVD]

Spoiler:

Oh I voted NK15 thinking he was pulling a scum gambit on his partner? A vote I rescinded and a point I clarified with someone who is used to playing with scum!NK? That?

It's a weird order of events.

NK15: "I have a guilty on Andres" *votes Andres*
Italiano: "Roden scum slipped" *votes NK15*
Andres: "I'm town" *votes NK15*

It doesn't even make sense to vote NK15 here first. You only considered two worlds here: it was either a scum gambit and they were both scum, or Andres was just caught and NK15 was town. Andres is scum in both worlds, so why did you vote NK15? If you thought he could've been bussing, why not just...let him bus?

And sure if you wanna frame it like I was ‘defending’ the slot you can. My actual point was, it was a waste of a vote because there was a high chance nothing would come of it. Nice shade by the way.

I’d still like to go for Roden and/or Kitty once we figure out what’s going on with HEM.

I'm not framing anything. You blatantly defended flipped scum after they got hit with a guilty. You didn't say anything about your suspicions of a scum gambit until later on, you just shaded me then voted NK15 without addressing the guilty, or really even accusing NK15 of anything.

Feel free to scum case me though. I've been waiting for one, but all you've done all game is call me scum and complain that everyone is bad if they don't vote me.

Don’t @ me, if you read all my Day 2 posts, everyone can see where my head was. Why are you even asking these questions expecting a different answer? Come on bruh.

I don't think your reason for voting NK15 makes sense and I'm trying to understand it. If it was a 50/50 chance on whether or not NK15 was scum, and a 100% chance that Andres was scum, voting NK15 doesn't make sense to me. And this doesn't really address the rest of what I said.

To be fair, it really doesn’t matter if it doesn’t make sense to you, especially after saying

why

I did it and

what

was on my mind. I’ve already explained it and that’s it.

Also, Roden’s push on me is quite skewed given the arguments.

Roden’s case against me is:

1) I defended Andres’ slot.
2) I voted for NK15 over Andres’ slot.
3) I voted for HEM even though I said I townread him.

784 is where Roden defends Andres’ slot and elaborated in 790

HEM, Kitty myself and Roden ‘defended’ Andres’ slot. But why were we saying it? It’s poor play in general and not alignment indicative.

Did you link the wrong posts? Those posts are about Leaf and Scorpius, I don't mention Andres at all there. In fact, Andres hadn't even replaced into the game yet, not until post 848.

Andresvmb replaces Saladman27

Mathblade replaces Facebones

Please welcome them!

I never defended him anyway, and it's pretty easy to prove by just going into my ISO and using Ctrl + F to search his name.

I pointed out those quotes from you because of what you were saying about voting for non active slots. My mistake, I thought you were talking about Salad. The premise remains the same however, calling me out for “defending” the Salad/Andres slot was poor because of the sentiment you pointed out for Scorpious.

[ItalianoVD]

btw im going to hammer italiano at E-1 so i dont have to be the elim just gonna put that out there

Got no problem with it. This game has been draining.

[ItalianoVD]

100% unadulterated vanilla town here baby. Do your worst.

[ItalianoVD]

If I’m wrong about Roden then my bad, I don’t think so though. And maybe it was Leaf all along because I’m questioning Gamma’s alignment.

[ItalianoVD]

VOTE: IVD

I HARDCLAIM VIGILANTE

Nice kill Roden or Gamma

[ItalianoVD]

VOTE: IVD

I HARDCLAIM VIGILANTE

Nice kill Roden or Gamma

Neither. Malcom

You know what…sure, why not.

[ItalianoVD]

You sly dogs you.

Great game by scum. Ya pretty much had this in the bag because HEM and Math would have been able to push anyone but each other and most of us if not all of us wouldn’t have been the wiser. Very smooth performance. I had lots of fun; thanks for running it cat.

[ItalianoVD]

Andres/MathBlade/NK15
For stats

sadge i tunneled on nk15 but hem was in that poe right above ):

Well played Koba. So glad no one listened to you when you died. Kinda going all over the place hurt your case.

If we didn’t get Scorpious I was just going to ignore you and paint you as the enby who claimed wolf. I was really hoping it didn’t come to that.

Lol, this was the reason I went for NK15 then I got lazy and didn't really want to solve anymore, which is terrible on my part. My bad, but I should have kept at it after you died.

[ItalianoVD]

Mafia played this town like a fiddle. I never suspected Math. Also that D1 was something else.

I'm sorry for kinda ruining this game, it's just that those two townies felt outrageously scummy to me.

Nah, you didn't ruin game man, it was concerted effort by all of us and the scum capitalized.

[ItalianoVD]

Both sides of the argument made great points imo, but being informed is a power all itself that imo town always needs more help than scum do. Giving scum any other type of power (investigative, manipulative, or protective, etc) swings it even more in their favor.

I’d actually like to know if nerfing town power would make town players better. I’d say the town gets better in today’s meta when they study different setup scenarios and understand what balance is and how to balance it. Dkkoba said they can solve the game simply off of setup spec. That’s what

they

do, but how common is that amongst town players? Imo if you want to be an elite town player you need to understand and know how the setup and balance works. You need to know the different roles and what they do and why they do what they do and what counteracts what, etc, but most town players are trying to solve the game in the normal traditional way, which is fine if you’re playing against average to mediocre scum. Trying to do that against elite competition will not work and like koba said you need to extra oomph in your arsenal.

[ItalianoVD]

you need to have that extra oomph in your arsenal.