Mini Normal 2257: Polish Rap | Game Over

[butterchurn]

Hi, pretty new to this site but not to forum mafia in general, although I've just recently come back to it after 8 years or so. Excited to get started here, I've listened to Polish rap before so I feel ready.

VOTE: Ahri
because I recently lost to one.

[butterchurn]

Hi, pretty new to this site but not to forum mafia in general, although I've just recently come back to it after 8 years or so. Excited to get started here, I've listened to Polish rap before so I feel ready.

VOTE: Ahri
because I recently lost to one.

Town

Do you always call people town over nothing? I'm pretty sure that would be a very easy post for me to make as mafia.

[butterchurn]

Personally, I know that I tend to be a bit more cavalier with my townreads as mafia, because everything that a confirmed town does looks towny, and you can easily just hand them out like candy. As town I'm more hesitant and paranoid. But I've seen that a lot of people on this site tend to have a... looser approach than what I'm used to, so I dunno. Still weirds me out, though.

[butterchurn]

I find the RVS vote without any other intro or explanation to be pretty useless, at best. Making it a self-vote on top of that? That just feels like deliberately adding no information to the thread.

VOTE: Greeting

Why the switch?

[butterchurn]

"Discussion"? Can you clarify what you mean by that? Because surely you're not saying it's too early to... discuss things. And, you know, play the game. Why wait? Slow/content-lacking game starts are scum-favored.

[butterchurn]

Personally, I think the goal of every game should be to transition from RVS to legit discussion as soon as possible, and RVS only exists in the first place as a vehicle for getting the game into the stages of legit discussion.

[butterchurn]

I feel like you're using your interactions + vote with Capo to stall

To stall? This strikes me as a strange choice of phrasing to apply to the current situation, I don't think I follow. Can you expand on what you mean by this?

[butterchurn]

I don't like the self-vote in RVS with no other content either, but that reaction seems a little extreme to me. I'd like to hear more (or, well, anything) from them, but I don't see reason to believe yet that won't happen.

what champion were you playing?

Trundle jungle. Pillar doesn't help much when trying to gank an Ahri who has ult up.

[butterchurn]

VOTE: bababooey

I’d almost advocate a replacement as this is an obvious troll.

This seemed off to me at first but after musing on it a bit, I think it's more likely to come from perhaps overzealous town.

I just thought since everyone will be voting random so it would be pretty funny to vote for myself. It's not like I couldn't change my vote afterward, so didn't seem like that big of a deal.

Well, it got some responses at least, which is better than some random votes out there.



VOTE: Andante, come play with us.

[butterchurn]

and meta reading that should have been a natural consequence to an honest read

I can't quite parse what this is saying. Are you saying "If he had meta read this, there is an honest read that should be a natural consequence"? If so, what read do you think that is? Or are you saying "if he was reading honestly, as a natural consequence of that he should have done a meta read"? I think it's the latter now that I've read it a few times, but on first read I interpreted it as the former.

gerry? definitely not newb town. most definitely. he's null rn. the only thing he's done different so far as I know is he hasn't voted according to his usual entry method.

I was reading his recent games earlier, and I mostly agree (on a quick look, I don't see a recent scumgame where he took this approach, but it's a clear enough attitude that I would assume him to be capable of imitating it), but to me it looks like he did use his usual entry vote method. I assumed scorpious was asking you about Greeting, though. (preview edit: maybe he wasn't)

Also, for what it's worth, I disagree with the philosophy, since I think the information gained from the content and organic voting/wagon forming is beneficial enough to town for it to be worth the unlikelihood that the lim is successful.

[butterchurn]

VOTE: Greeting

Real vote? Expand on this, please.

[butterchurn]

I don't really buy it. I've read all of Greeting's past games (he's the only one in this game that I've played with before) and he picks up votes for things like this as town very often, and his behavior seems pretty in character for how he is as town. I agree that his wording in that post is strange, but his wording is often strange, I don't think it's AI for him here. He has no scum games onsite, so I don't know how he'd play if that were the case, but to me this seems like much lower hanging fruit than geraintm. Your vote seems significantly more opportunistic than his.

[butterchurn]

Alright.

VOTE: fua

[butterchurn]

I don’t buy that you read all of Greeting’s past games just because you played with him before.

The game that I played with him is still in progress, so I can't discuss that one yet. You're free to read his past games yourself and see that what I said is true.

It’s also funny that you jumped in to defend Greeting both times I voted him. But what do I know?

I've questioned 100% of times where people made a vote (excluding their first one) without a reason given, because I find that behavior questionable, and because town gets significantly less information if people don't give reasons for their votes. It just so happens that both of those cases were you.

[butterchurn]

VOTE: greeting

Ok, really now?

bumping my response to you here, i didn't see an answer
52
is his stalling a behavior that doesn't deviate from his towngames?
(also, what games are you using? this is probably more important than anything else)

I didn't see a question. The stalling seemed fairly insignificant to me, or perhaps it's just nuanced enough that it's not something I pick up on. So on that point specifically, I don't recall it occurring previously, but if I didn't pick up on what you're talking about here I think I'd be unlikely to pick up on it elsewhere.

As for other games, it's bits and pieces from all of them, but to pick some out, I think Newbie 2078 (viewtopic.php?f=11&t=87518) feels similar to what people are picking on here -- some things with tone, attitude, weird phrasing, a somewhat questionable vote. That one's a pretty quick read, I think just from the first 150 posts or so you get the picture. In Newbie 2082 (viewtopic.php?f=11&t=88098) there's some other similar stuff, and around posts 140-185ish there's a "defensive tunnel". All this to say that his behavior here seems relatively in line with his past town behavior. I'm not townreading him for it, but I don't particularly agree with the suspicion, and the way in which everyone piled onto it looks extremely questionable to me.

This is not fua's scum game

I noticed while reading games earlier that you were just recently scum with them in 2252, I'm guessing that's where this opinion is coming from. Can you elaborate?

[butterchurn]

VOTE: butterchurn

I pocketed greeting once with posts like 134.

I was explaining why I think the case on him is bad, and the wagon suspicious. You called out low hanging fruit earlier, do you really not think that this was a case of that?

[butterchurn]

This is E-2 btw and one of the worst wagons I've ever seen...

VOTE: Greeting
E-1

You've already vioted for him...


Oh god I hate this f'n game..

i was got when i read it too. i was got like that in a previous game too, assuming when someone voted when someone was 1 vote off it was an elimination.
I have no logical reason to beleive Greeting is more likely to be scum than anyone else in this game. why their wagon is so high baffles me

I have no idea what this first line means, or what the point of saying it was. Anyone help me out? Am I dumb?
As for the second line -- keeping your RVS vote while also saying the wagon doesn't make sense and is too high is... something.

and gerain, see, my issue is like, yes you're fully aware you're doing exactly what you did as maf, but why is this an ok way to play? I don't feel like giving someone a free pass when all they're planning on doing is "omg day 1 sucks!!" like, no thanks. when we were maf even you knew people would TR you for it, cause "that's how you play" I don't see anything significantly towny here, so I'm fine with my vote on you gerain

This feels like a different attitude to your earlier "I'm pretty confident he's mafia". Here it almost feels like you're wanting more of a policy lim due to his playstyle being unhelpful and his approach not giving anything to read, or am I misunderstanding? Are you still pretty confident he's mafia?

Holding geraint hostage until they do something that isnt backed up by years of games isn't a bad idea
i feel terrible making this comparison but they remind me of Not_Mafia and that man is absolutely not readable w time

Seems like a net positive, we get something actually useful out of him, and for him Day 1 actually starts mattering. win-win, everyone's happy.

There's also plenty more people in this game who haven't provided much of anything useful yet. QuietOwl, bababooey, dwlee. ahri gave a few reads at least but nothing else. Would like to hear more from all of them.

[butterchurn]

Some thoughts on the Greeting wagon.

• - fua voted Greeting first due to "meta usage", then switched away.
  - Galron was the first to call out Greeting for the low hanging fruit, but didn't vote until later.
  - Hella Jeff was next, explained his thought process around the stalling and voted. I thought his reasoning was questionable at first, but his further explanation of it seemed okay to me. His later interactions with Andante at the end of the Day felt kinda weird, but I assume they know each other and there's a history there.
  - Quiet Owl comes in next, voting for "the weird defensive tunnel". I still don't really know what this is referring to. He didn't tunnel on fua. He didn't even acknowledge Galron. Closest I can see is that he responds to Hella Jeff's questions a few times, but I don't really see how that's tunneling. I assume that must be what they're talking about, and that it's coming from 49 and 54, but it seems like a stretch to me. Greeting never even expressed suspicion of Hella Jeff, and 54 was a response to a direct question. Quiet Owl shows up again for a second post in 221 and it's a nitpicky wording thing that is also super weak and I have a hard time seeing town genuinely think it's a reason for suspicion. Feels like showing up just enough to keep active while still slipping under the radar.
  - geriantm votes next, from his rvs 11th post thing. The vote is whatever, but it's super weird how later he criticizes the wagon while keeping his vote there. Then again, I guess maybe that's consistent with his wanting to skip Day 1? He posts some more later, acknowledging the current state of things without actually saying much.
  - fua switches back to Greeting. They had a case, but the timing of it felt very questionable to me. They copy the "defensive tunneling" reason from Quiet Owl among other reasons, I think that one is very weak though and it's strange they mentioned it. Felt kind of like they had to go search for reasons after I asked why they voted, and just grabbed one from a previous person's vote.
  - dwlee's vote came without reasoning, I almost read it as a joke at first but they ended up keeping it. They don't have much content yet, so it's hard to read more into it. The actions felt scummy but the loose and not-really-caring attitude feels somewhat more town, I'll have to look at past games to see if that holds up.
  - Galron then makes it E-1 and says "just hold on", and then doesn't post again. Dunno what that was about, and I had some suspicion here, but I guess he was town, so that's that.
  - Andante's posts feel pretty stream of consciousness and natural. Coming in, reading Greeting as town initially, and then deciding to hammer anyway also feels kinda unlikely as scum. Could be wrong, I've been fooled in the past by scum doing something that obviously looks bad, but my gut reads that flipping back and forth more as town.

I'd say in order of suspicion I'd put it at Quiet Owl > fua > geriantm > dwlee > Hella Jeff > Andante. I'd say highly likely that there's scum in the top 3 or 4 of those. Likely there's at least one scum not on the wagon, too. Quiet Owl having their only posts be two questionable points on Greeting, with the vote coming just as it looked like a wagon started forming, means I'm voting there for now. I don't want to let scum slip under the radar while everyone is busy pushing dumb wagons.

VOTE: Quiet Owl

[butterchurn]

Annnd now that I'm done typing, why are y'all like this.

This isn’t mafia. This is random vote newbie garbage.

Agreed with this. Can we play mafia?

[butterchurn]

I was only talking about people on the wagon, to be clear. I don't at all see a good reason to vote Scorpious.

[butterchurn]

Google normal roles

Holy hell!

161660 elo player spotted

[butterchurn]

UNVOTE:

Interesting... but... assuming that what Quiet Owl said is true, then they were told they were a complex gunsmith, and got a result of no gun. In most cases that should imply the target was a PR without a gun. If they were VT, should be no result. If they were mafia in most cases, result should be gun. The only other possibility is they are a mafia doctor. And Quiet Owl thought that possibility was

more likely

than dwlee being any non-gun PR, enough that they were willing to gamble outing two roles (themself and dwlee) on that chance? Seems... weird to me. I feel like that's a pretty small chance to be worth gambling on.

[butterchurn]

Mafia is Scorp/Butter/Dwlee. If Owl is lying we just lim him tomorrow. Town should realize a 1 for 1 trade is a good thing, especially if it’s a VT.

What? This is not a 1 for 1 situation, and both can easily be telling the truth here. Town should realize that most likely scenario here is that dwlee and Owl are both town. Be logical. I think Owl was overzealous in their attempt at a gambit, and that combined with my prior suspicion means I'm not going to rule out the possibility of them being scum (because I find it hard to see the town thought process there, despite the evidence), but I think the way this all went down means most likely both are town. I think if dwlee was mafia doctor here they wouldn't have been insistent on claiming VT, because Owl clearly had some information. The only way dwlee's response here makes sense to me is if they are telling the truth. Everything fits the narrative of them both being town alongside a mod error. I don't think it's confirmed, but it does seem to be most likely. I think it would be a strange play for Owl to go for as town, but it's just as strange of one if they were scum.

And if they are both town, scum would probably try to get a free miselim out of the confusion here. In fact, it looks like you're trying to get two. Are you just missing or ignoring the indications that there was clearly a mistake in either Owl's role or result, and they were therefore working based on incorrect assumptions?

[butterchurn]

I know that most of the playerlist is treating this like it's chat mafia, but that doesn't mean the few people actually trying to play the game are scum.

VOTE: Fua

[butterchurn]

If you lack the basic logic and reasoning skills necessary to come to the same conclusions, don't blame me. What I said should be immediately obvious to anyone that is paying attention. I wasn't even the first to say it, see 307 and 311. The fact that you don't seem to recognize that means that you are either not thinking critically about the situation (even after having it explained), or you misjudged what information was available to town, because you are scum and are not working with the same information as the rest of us. And you're probably frustrated that your attempt to take advantage of the current state of affairs failed.

[butterchurn]

The last 2 votes were so bad....bit would scum make them????

The second to last vote was Galron, who was town, so apparently not that one. Do you have any suspicions? State them, please.

mmmmm i'm shit at scumhunting but in my opinion fua's scumteam seems legit

fua's scumteam is, at absolute best, based on a misunderstanding of the quiet owl/dwlee situation, and sure looks like it's just composed of the three people who unvoted after the mod action shortly before fua's post. What about that is compelling to you?

[butterchurn]

Scum team is Ahri. Ger, and Pretty sure fua.

you think me and ahri would pile on you like this if we were scum and you were VT as claimed?

what would you be doing in this situation if another player said they had a guilty? you'd be voting too.

She didn't say she had a guilty, she said "if I said I had investigative with a sussy result, would that change your mind?". I think that merits further explanation. Based on her V/LA end time, she should be back soon, so hopefully things will be clearer.

I think the first point is a fair one, though. Although I don't particularly trust any of the people gunning for scorp right now, I don't think it's likely that ALL of them are mafia.

[butterchurn]

...okay, uh. Ahri, are you actually claiming anything investigative or not? Claiming mason on its own tells us nothing about Scorpious. How exactly is that "important information" you needed to share with town?

[butterchurn]

I have no idea. There's way too many people behaving in frankly a bizarre way for them all to be scum, which is making this game much harder than it needs to be.

[butterchurn]

fua and geriant both seemed to be trying to take advantage of the Scorpious wagon, and gave the "investigative claim" wayyyy more credit than it deserved. I have a hard time seeing their behavior come from town. For geriant, to be frank, I have a hard time understanding what he's saying most of the time or following his reasoning at all. I've been reading some of his old games today to see if that's meaningful at all, and it looks like that's just kind of his style of posting as both alignments. Not really sure how to read him.

[butterchurn]

Alright, I think I gave yeezys too much of a pass. I townread Andante for her Day 1 feeling like a natural thought process, and because it seemed like too obvious of a move to go for the early hammer like that. That townread has mostly carried over to yeezys' slot, and there were more pressing things to care about. But in my previous game onsite (which is over now, so I can talk about it -- we won, yay), I was nearly fooled by scum going for an obviously scummy-looking hammer and me thinking "there's no way scum would go for that, it's too obvious", and I was also consistently distracted by the higher volume posters and didn't give enough thought to the lurkers. With that in mind, I gave the yeezys/Andante slot another look over.

Not gonna focus too much on Andante since she isn't here to defend herself, but I did read over a few of her past games and see that she is extremely capable of replicating that natural thought process stream of consciousness feel when she's scum. Her tone in scum games doesn't feel particularly artificial to me, so I may have made a mistake in judging her alignment here based on tone. I did also agree with her on the dwlee/quiet owl thing, but I think the logic she had could come from either alignment.

yeezys only has 8 posts since joining, so there's not much to look at. They were the 2nd highest postcount in their only other game onsite (as town), despite getting killed Night 2 in a 4-Day game, so a much lurkier game here is interesting. Not scum-indicative on its own since they don't have any scumgames onsite to compare to, but it's a noticeable change from their town game. Their posts consist of:

• - 3 catchup posts after replacing in, listing a few reads. Me town, geriant town (later revised to null), looking (greeting, I assume) scummy, scorpious weird vibes, andante towny (lol), hella jeff null.
  - In 360, says they're bad at scumhunting, then says fua's scumteam (Scorp/Butter/Dwlee from 323) looks legit. I questioned on this at the time, since fua's reasoning for the team seemed extremely flimsy (especially because I thought she was scum, but either way). I didn't get a response. Which, fine, whatever. But this post is relevant later.
  - 387, 388, and 390. Votes scorpious and says it would be funny if they were scum, and then says that ahri's claim was potentially true so people should vote scorpious. Then (presumably jokingly, since they say nevermind after) calls for a massclaim. I have a hard time telling if they actually think scorpious is scum here, although it seems like they do. Also, not particularly significant, but I'll note that Andante voted scorpious right before replacing out, so the slot was already voting scorpious at this point.
  - 451 puts fua at E-1 because it would "give us the most information". Prior to this, as best I can judge, they seemed to be solidly on the fua side of the fua vs scorpious debate, considering like 80% of their content so far was agreeing with fua's scumteam and then voting for scorpious. At the time, I didn't mind the switch, since I thought they were right to do so. But looking back now, there was exactly ONE fua post between 390 and 451 (415). I don't see how yeezys' mind could have been changed so quickly, and I don't see why as town they would put someone they're not suspicious of at E-1 when there were still at least 4 days left to deadline. This just looks like scum trying to push in the current wagon, while saying that they're doing it "for information", so the next Day they can easily say "oh hey, I was right, looks like scorpious must be scum after all".

Conclusion: lurky, following whatever the current trend is, and an extremely opportunistic vote on fua which goes counter to any of their previous reads. At the very least, I would like to see more content, reasoning, and thought process from them. But I think most likely they're just scum who thought they could get away with a cheap vote.

VOTE: yeezys

[butterchurn]

I also don't want to forget about geraintm. YesterDay I was thinking it was likely that fua and geraint were scum together. With fua flipped town, that obviously wasn't the case, but my suspicion of geraint hasn't gone away that much, as I don't think they were especially tied together. I don't really get much out of Nero Cain's argument that geraint should have voted for him yesterDay (he gave "naughty points" to several people without voting for them, and seems to do that regularly based on my reads of past games, and the unvote came in twilight so I wouldn't really expect him to vote again there), but I do agree that geraint's posts feel a little over-explainy at times and somewhat artificial. Keeping the vote on Greeting despite complaining about the wagon still seems suspicious to me, and I still find it hard to see the strong belief (and sticking to that belief) in ahri's "claim" as genuinely coming from town, since ahri seemed to be wink-wink-ing pretty hard that she wasn't being entirely honest, but fua did the same and they ended up flipping town, so I dunno, maybe I misjudged how clear ahri's intentions were to others (Nero Cain seems to agree with me, at least, so I'm not completely crazy).

geraintm's early posts toDay do feel like he is at least putting in an effort to find scum, though, and I actually think that re-assessing based on new information and looking at wagons is more of a town approach than it would be if he had just lazily carried over his previous suspicions and voted Nero Cain. I believe it was Galron that said that geraint is low hanging fruit early, and he'll sort himself out later. From looking at past games, it seems like he is generally hard to read and not particularly useful early in the game both as town and scum, and tends to do more later, so I guess that's what Galron was talking about. Willing to give that theory a chance, but still watching closely.

[butterchurn]

This just looks like scum trying to push in the current wagon, while saying that they're doing it "for information", so the next Day they can easily say "oh hey, I was right, looks like scorpious must be scum after all".

VOTE: Scorpious dont have time to read thru the thread right now but last time i checked fua was town so i was right

lmao

[butterchurn]

That... seems like a very random role to make up, but it also makes no sense. Why would you be both a vigilante and a doctor? I don't understand what the point of that would be. Has anyone heard of a role combination like that before?

[butterchurn]

I mean, if you want to argue that the "masons" are a fakeclaimed scum team then sure I guess

The possibility occurred to me, yes, but I may have just been being paranoid due to my prior suspicion. Took a nap and feeling less so, but I still think it's worth keeping that in mind. The role as described seems much less useful than a CPR doctor, since they said that they both kill and protect at the same time, and so they cancel out and essentially do nothing. My initial thought was that it seemed like a convenient way to explain showing up as having a gun to a gunsmith (which Quiet Owl has claimed) while also not needing to have a useful role, and without much thought for the likelihood of such a role combination existing. But I guess ascetic makes that irrelevant anyway.

UNVOTE:

[butterchurn]

I've been here 10 years and I've seen scum fakeclaim masons once. I agree that its not impossible and I think someone could go "ah an Arhi/yeezy/??? scum team makes sense." but they are not for today. Who do you think is scum?

Fair, I guess. I just see their behavior as looking incredibly scummy and it was hard to imagine a world where they're town, even if logically it makes the most sense. I'm having a hard time with this game, it feels like there's not much to work with, and people keep just stating who they're suspicious of or voting them with no reasoning behind it and that makes it extremely hard to determine if their reasoning is scum-motivated or not. Looking at that reasoning is how I tend to hunt scum, and I'm not sure if people just aren't caring about this game or if it's a playstyle thing, but I think it's making it much easier for scum to hide. And hey, maybe it doesn't matter anyway if there are 3 masons and they just vote whoever they want. I feel generally skeptical about the prospect of just handing the reins of the game over to them, though.

Roughly in order of willingness to vote at the moment:

Scorpious

- Townread off early agreement about greeting and off what I thought was scum (fua, geriant, later yeezys) taking advantage of a questionable wagon. Has been coasting/active lurking extremely hard, I think the "boo hoo this game is bad everyone's reasoning is bad get me out of here" approach has outlasted what I would expect from town and has entered into the territory of looking like scum trying to milk it. I agree with the general sentiment, but I think the town response to that is to actually put some effort in and find scum. He has one of the higher post counts but so many of them lack any actual content.

geriantm

- Discussed recently already, still feel pretty much the same. Could be partners with scorpious, actually, now that I think about it, because that would make the belief that ahri did actually have something investigative make more sense -- if he knew the result was true, he wouldn't have much reason to doubt it.

Enchant

- Has done literally nothing yet. Don't know what to make of that. Brazen in a way that I tend to associate with town, but if they play like this often, then it's not very meaningful. Did some research, and attitude looks generally similar in past games, but they tend to actually have content as both alignments. So I dunno.

Hella Jeff

- Seemed towny at first to me, lately seems to be coasting. Similar to scorpious but the coasting is less extreme. Probably should be looking closer.

Nero Cain

- First instinct is seems logical and reasonable in a level-headed towny way, but I should probably also be looking closer here.

Quiet Owl

- The dwlee incident still makes me think town (especially with dwlee confirmed as VT, although I think that was fairly obvious already), but general behavior isn't very towny.

yeezys

- Mason, apparently, despite scummy behavior.

Ahri

- Mason, apparently

[butterchurn]

You say that I am desperate despite scum winning this game so far. I mean just look at this game, Greeting was pushed then Fua was pushed and now Scorp was pushed all with little to no resistance. What this says to me is that scum are nice and comfortable in this gamestate. Maybe its time to shake things up and explore elsewhere.

I had a similar line of thought. Makes me somewhat uneasy when nearly everyone seems to be willing to vote Scorp. I think it's only you and Owl who haven't expressed willingness. Could be that if he's scum, his partners see it as a foregone conclusion that he's going out and decide to commit to the bus, but I'm not sure. What made you start thinking it's Jeff instead of geriant, among those left from the Greeting wagon? I'm of the opposite opinion, and I don't see any explanation of your switch.

[butterchurn]

First point about his response to enchant wagon, eh, I don't really see it. I read his previous game earlier (where he was town) and he seemed similarly meme-y and joking. I agree with the point about going with the flow, though, both on yeezys and on Scorpious.

[butterchurn]

and a mason not dying (though that could be explained away by scum not wanting to lose day chat)

Uh, hold on. What?

[butterchurn]

I didn't know that had any effect on the mafia team. Am I misunderstanding the wiki/rules? I looked this up when Ahri claimed it, and that's not the understanding I came away with.

Any private topics containing an Encryptor have daytalk.

Global Daytalk is OFF. Only private chats with an alive encryptor will be able to talk during the day.

Wouldn't scum only lose day chat from Ahri dying if Ahri were in their private chat? My reading of these rules is that either mafia does not have day chat, or they have their own encryptor. Unless there's more going on here that I don't know about.

[butterchurn]

Alright, finally had a chance to sit down and work through this gamestate. Instead of just throwing out potential solves with no reasoning that get us nowhere, I want to actually reason my way through this.

- If I assume for now that Ahri and yeezys are indeed masons, and that there are 3 mafia, they must be among the following: Scorpious, Hella Jeff, geraintm, Quiet Owl, Enchant, and Nero Cain. Going to ignore the possibilities of who is 3rd mason for now, since it's obviously not beneficial to hunt for them.
- yesterDay, as of 397, there were 4 votes on Scorpious (Ahri, fua, geraintm, and yeezys), and 3 on fua (Dwlee, butterchurn, Scorpious). Nero Cain comes in, votes geriant, and says he will likely switch to fua after we burn some deadline. He votes fua 12 hours later. Dwlee expresses willingness to hammer Scorpious if another vote comes in (432). Shortly after, Ahri unvotes scorpious, then yeezys votes fua, and then fua self-hammers.

• - Let's look at this from both perspectives.
  - If Scorpious is town, then the two main wagons are both town. The likely third one would be on geraint -- several people had expressed suspicion or willingness to vote there. Scum would be unlikely to be in any sort of rush here, either fua or Scorpious elim is fine for them. Note the people who were not voting at the end of Day: Hella Jeff, geraintm (although his unvote was after the hammer), Enchant, Quiet Owl, Ahri. I doubt all three are there, but would expect 1 or 2. Nero Cain voting fua relatively quickly doesn't really make sense if he were scum with town Scorpious, unless he was worried about the wagons stalling out and a switch being made to geraint.
  - If Scorpious is scum, then scum would obviously want to push in the fua wagon. This points to Nero Cain. Third partner would likely be Jeff, Owl, or Enchant. Possibly geraint as well, as he genuinely may have believed the ahri claim. Which is... everyone, so that doesn't narrow things down that much.
  -
  Conclusion:
  If Scorpious town, one possibility is 2 scum among Hella Jeff, Enchant, Quiet Owl with the third being geraint, alternatively, Nero Cain is likely only scum if he's partners with geraint. If Scorpious scum, most likely with Nero Cain.

- Dwlee gets nightkilled. I'm going to assume this was not a rolehunt kill, because I think Dwlee was fairly obvious in being VT from the response to Quiet Owl. Earlier I thought it was strange they didn't kill Ahri, and suspected the mason claim may be fake, but I'll set that aside for now, because I think that is probably too far into conspiracy theory territory. Another possible reason I could see would be Dwlee's willingness to vote Scorpious. Ahri had also seemingly started to soften on Scorpious and look towards geraint instead at the end of Day 2 (449).

• - I could see a Scorpious scumteam preferring a Dwlee kill to an Ahri kill, in the hopes that Ahri's suspicions would continue to lessen, and that her approach would continue to not do a whole lot to convince people.
  - I guess a scumteam without Scorpious could avoid a kill on Ahri in hopes that she stays focused on Scorpious, but then why kill Dwlee of all people, since it takes out a potential Scorpious vote and isn't someone who's been doing a whole lot? And I think that's generally just the objectively worse play compared to taking out a mason -- I only see it being worth it if it saves a mafia from being elimmed.
  - That's now been 2 nightkills that were on the Greeting wagon, and not particularly useful-to-mafia ones at that. I think it would be very dumb for the scumteam to narrow down the wagon that much for no good reason if 2 or 3 of them were on it (and the only especially good reason I can see for a Dwlee kill is protecting Scorpious). The ones remaining alive are Hella Jeff, geraintm, Quiet Owl, and yeezys.
  -
  Conclusion:
  Dwlee kill more likely to come from a Scorpious scumteam. Jeff/geraint/Owl team highly unlikely. If exactly 2 of those 3 are scum, I think it's likely to be with Scorpious, although that's a weaker belief.

- Scorpious is currently at E-2, and has been for a while now. The ones voting him are Ahri, yeezys (claimed masons), and Enchant. The ones who have expressed willingness to vote him or significant suspicion but are not voting yet are butterchurn and Hella Jeff. geraint voted Scorpious yesterDay, I think mostly because of the Ahri claim, and he seems to still be making up his mind toDay. Quiet Owl seems to be ignoring the wagon completely and came in with a vote on Enchant. Nero Cain does not seem to like the Scorpious wagon, and has pushed in almost every other possible direction toDay, starting with Enchant and geraint, then Jeff and me, with some Owl thrown in occasionally.

• - If Scorpious is town, scum would likely want to push this wagon in to prevent another from forming, like they did the first two Days. If Enchant is scum, which seems like the current 2nd wagon, they'd probably want to push the Scorpious one even faster. The fact that they aren't makes me think that if he's town, scum is most likely to be among those who would have a harder time believably switching to Scorpious. That would be Nero Cain and geraint, possibly Quiet Owl, and makes me lean away from Jeff. I only see Scorp town and Jeff scum if the team is Jeff/Nero/geraint, and they're just really taking their time switching their votes over to Scorpious.
  - If Scorpious is scum, the other scum would either try to bus or try to find another viable wagon, possibly one of each, although if they are bussing I don't know why they wouldn't just both go for it. Nero Cain alongside either Owl or geraint makes a lot of sense here to me, as all three of those are trying to look into or push alternative wagons. Jeff is also a possibility -- he expressed willingness to vote Scorpious, but has also been looking elsewhere, and joined the yeezys wagon pretty quickly.
  -
  Conclusion:
  Current behavior of all the potential scum suspects makes me think scum Scorpious is more likely, and his partners are trying to work out alternative wagons. I think the possibility of town Scorpious generally makes less sense with the events of the last few Days, but if he is town, geraint seems to appear in most possible scumteams.

The previous two Days ended way early and I think that was a mistake and generally hurt town. I'm not planning to vote yet because I don't want someone to hammer and end the Day, and I think there's still more worth discussing. I would currently lean towards voting Scorpious, though.

[butterchurn]

My guess would be that Scorpious likely wants to avoid giving any information regarding associations with his partners, so it makes sense that he would attack the masons here. Basically a scumclaim, I think he's given up.

I don't at all think it's guaranteed that you're his partner, but surely you can understand how signs would point that way from my perspective? I could definitely see other possibilities, though. Scorp/Jeff/Owl, for example, would probably be my next most likely. What do you think of Owl?

[butterchurn]

sure but I've been "defending" Scorp for a while now and you are just NOW calling me scum with him the only thing that changed is that I started calling you scum or am I mistaken?

Because, minus a few weird things you've done/said, my gut says you look like the only other person actually putting in effort to solve the game, and that makes me think you're town. I know you're a very experienced player, though, and I expect you to be able to do that as mafia as well (and my gut isn't particularly accurate), so I decided to look at things from more of a POE/analyzing associations lens to see what possibilities make sense to me. I also wasn't particularly convinced of Scorpious being scum until I worked things out in that post. I don't think I was saying anything new or revolutionary by saying that if he's scum, you're a likely partner, I think everyone can see that.

Also, you are pushing me, jeff, scorp team. Why do I push my other buddy and not just bus for town cred? It makes no sense and I know that you know that you aren't being honest.

What? Where did you get that? No, I'm not at all. It's a possibility, but not a particularly strong one, and I don't think I ever said it was. You/scorp/owl seems most likely to me from that analysis.

[butterchurn]

My thought process here is that if you are in fact town, we probably will lose if we aren't able to work together. Unless someone is confirmed scum, I'm willing to talk to them as if they're town and hear their side of things. Maybe you don't see it the same way, maybe you just would rather lock in your suspicions and say "gg go next hope I'm right" like everyone else in this game, and honestly, I can see the appeal. But I know that either you're scum or you're town who is wrong, and I'm willing to keep trying in case it's the latter.

[butterchurn]

I guess the good news is that masons are confirmed to exist, so there's no need to be paranoid about that anymore. 3 scum hiding among 4 people. As of now, I would lean towards voting geraintm, but I want to take a more in depth look at the thread knowing Scorpious and Enchant's alignments.

Please don't vote anyone right away -- if town votes town here we probably lose immediately. This game is definitely winnable still.

[butterchurn]

Well, okay, guess we're not voting Ger then. What changed to make you want to vote so quickly, Nero?

[butterchurn]

why me? i dont see why you are picking out on me?

Doesn't matter much at the moment since it looks like I won't be voting you toDay anymore, but a few reasons:
- I think if Nero is scum, you likely are too. From his behavior both of the last two Days, when looking at possible partners for him (you/Owl, you/Jeff, or Owl/Jeff), I think the first two make by far the most sense. On Day 2, he came in and voted you when you weren't really at any risk, but that suspicion seems to have tapered off gradually. He switched onto fua faster than he indicated, which previously I thought may have been due to him being partners with Scorpious, but I think it's also possible that he didn't want a third wagon to start forming on you since there were multiple people expressing suspicion. Then yesterDay, he starts out on Enchant and somewhat weakly on you, and then shifted over to me/you/Jeff, and then shifted again to me/Jeff/Scorp and then me/Jeff/Owl. All of that to me looks like partner behavior from his side. From your side too, really, since it doesn't look like you've ever genuinely considered the possibility of him being scum, just engaged with him weakly. And on the other hand, if he's town, then that only leaves you/Jeff/Owl. So in one scenario you are guaranteed scum, and in the other one I think it's by far the most likely.
- On top of that, I think your behavior has just been fairly scummy all game. Your posts feel artificial, your actions seem opportunistic, and all the things I've already talked about.

In order of most to least likely:

Players:
- geraint (See above.)
- Owl (Just has done absolutely nothing pro-town. Their Day 1 still looks extremely scummy to me. Really the only thing in their favor is the claim, but I also still can't really see why they did what they did from a town POV.)
- Jeff (Doesn't really seem to be scumhunting lately, but neither are the masons and they're pretty much conftown, so I dunno how telling that really is. If he's scum, I kinda would have expected him to vote Scorpious yesterDay. Has had some fairly weak defenses when pushed.)
- Nero (Actually is putting in effort to find scum. Is definitely capable of doing that as mafia too, though, and has had some strange behavior, so I can't rule him out.)

Teams:
- Nero/Owl/geraint (Nero's push on Jeff despite having more reasons to think that Owl is scummy makes me think this team is more likely than a Nero/Jeff/geraint team. Nero has been behaving oddly around Owl for a while.)
- Jeff/Owl/geraint (Seems unlikely that all 3 would be on the Greeting wagon, and they'd then also kill galron/dwlee to narrow that down. Just have a really hard time seeing that happening, but besides that these are the three that look the most scummy to me. Maybe it's all a big WIFOM and they're hoping people will think it wasn't possible for all of them to be on it?)
- Jeff/Nero/geraint (The Jeff/Nero bus is possible, and would explain why Jeff hasn't done much, if he already had planned to go down. Feel relatively neutral about this one but it's possible.)
- Nero/Jeff/Owl (I just don't really see Nero as scum here without geraint. If this is the team, well played Nero, I guess.)

These are somewhat at odds with each other -- my top 3 scum I have a hard time seeing together. The most logical way to reconcile that for me is that I'm misreading Nero, but I'm not feeling particularly willing to put my faith in that. In isolation Jeff definitely looks more scummy to me than Nero does. The alternative is that I'm misjudging what a Jeff/Owl/geraint team would choose to do.

---

Seems like everyone is waiting for someone else to start the massclaim, which feels like scum wanting to figure out what they can safely fakeclaim, but whatever. I'm VT.

Jeff, who do you think is scum?

[butterchurn]

Ah, I see I somehow missed that sentence in 599, sorry about that. I guess that would explain the odd behavior. So you still thought Owl was mason up until the Enchant flip?

[butterchurn]

Also, is there a reason that you're calling for a massclaim while not claiming yourself?

[butterchurn]

If Ger is still your top scum read why do you keep saying that you won't vote him today?

If I'm the least likely to be scum per the middle of your post then why am I at the top of your most likely team and who you want to vote? or are the teams section not ordered?

I assumed that we wouldn't be eliminating outside the cross toDay, since that's how ELo usually goes down, am I wrong in assuming that? I would obviously prefer to vote ger if that's on the table, I just didn't think it was.

The teams list is in order of which I think is most likely, primarily based on associations, and the player list is in order of who I think looks scummiest individually, mostly disregarding associations. As I said, the two unfortunately don't line up. I wish they did, because it would make things easier for me, but that's how it shakes out sometimes. One of the two lists is wrong and I know that, that's why I'm trying to work out which one. You are not at the top of who I want to vote, I'm not sure where you got that. I would prefer voting ger over both you and Jeff, and I would like to hear more from Jeff before coming to any sort of decision between you two.

---

I find it somewhat hard to believe that you thought Owl was mason up until the Enchant flip. Posts 293 and 412 both seemed to clearly point to the capo/enchant slot over Owl. I think everyone else was much less likely than those two -- me and Jeff voted yeezys, you and geraint had interactions with Ahri that seemed very un-mason-like. I thought Enchant was likely already at that point, but could understand seeing things differently. But then yeezys posts 572 where they say that capo was outed as the third mason. It could have been an elaborate ploy to pretend the third mason was someone else, I guess, but I feel like all of this points very strongly to Enchant being mason. I would expect town, especially town who is engaged with the game and reading and trying to solve -- i.e., I would expect it from you if you're town, maybe not ger or Owl -- to be reading those posts to help narrow the POE (privately, not in thread, of course), and it's strange that you apparently weren't doing that. Of course, you would be doing that as scum too. But scum has a motivation to appear surprised by the night kill, and act as if they didn't know.

[butterchurn]

Oh. I didn't understand that you meant that was the order in which people should claim, I thought that was the order in which you wanted to vote. My bad for going out of order then, I guess.

[butterchurn]

There's no way you seriously think that I meant you were wrong about every individual read. I was saying that your solve, which included me at the time, was wrong, because I'm town. Having one wrong person in your solve makes the solve wrong.

[butterchurn]

Where did I say that? What? Are you just making things up now?

[butterchurn]

Obviously, yes, that's true for any two people chosen out of you/geraint/jeff/owl, because only one of those 4 is town. Where are you getting that I'm not willing to vote for Jeff or Owl? I never said or implied that. You're either confused or lying. You are really making a habit out of misrepresenting and twisting my positions and it's pushing past the line of where I can give the benefit of the doubt that you are doing it with integrity. If you are town, I think you should take a step away and re-read and re-assess. If you're scum, just keep doing what you're doing because it's making it obvious.

[butterchurn]

It's not even internally consistent, either.

If Ger is still your top scum read why do you keep saying that you won't vote him today?

I assumed that we wouldn't be eliminating outside the cross toDay, since that's how ELo usually goes down, am I wrong in assuming that? I would obviously prefer to vote ger if that's on the table, I just didn't think it was.
[snip]
You are not at the top of who I want to vote, I'm not sure where you got that. I would prefer voting ger over both you and Jeff, and I would like to hear more from Jeff before coming to any sort of decision between you two.

So if you were the only wrong read why are you against voting Jeff or Owl?

Where did I say that? What? Are you just making things up now?

I am voting Jeff and I think he's scum but I told the masons to pick one or the other.

@Yeezy and Arhi-I won't be sheeping you on Ger. Pick one of Owl or Jeff (ideally Jeff but it doesn't matter)

Jeff or Owl has to be scum in any team you are pushing and you know it. Why are you against this today?

How can you possibly think that I'm unwilling to vote all of ger, jeff, and owl? Are you just convinced that I've locked my vote on you despite me just saying that you were my lowest individual scumread (although now that is certainly changing)? How does this chain of posts come from town Nero? I cannot figure out a line of reasoning that he would be using here or how this thought process comes from town, it just looks like a string of wild accusations and misrepresentations that don't even make sense when you put them together.

[butterchurn]

Okay, at the risk of giving him an out if he is scum, after rereading it a bunch of times, maybe when he says "why are you against voting Jeff or Owl?" he means to say "why are you against choosing between Jeff and Owl for your vote today?", when I interpreted it as "why are you against voting Jeff, and against voting Owl?". I can kind of see how he might make those posts as town if that's what he intended to say. That's still a misrepresentation, though, because I never said anything that would indicate I was against choosing between those two, and I don't know how he came up with the idea that I did. As I said earlier, I assumed that once Nero and Jeff voted each other, we would be elimming within the cross toDay, because that's the usual procedure in ELo to my understanding. I would be more than happy to vote outside of that if possible, as I have stated already, but I didn't think that was going to happen. I'm open to the possibility of choosing between Jeff and Owl instead, but it seems weird to me to make that switch after a cross has already been established -- why does Nero get to choose two people for the masons to decide between? There's nothing special about Jeff and Owl as a pair besides that he thinks they're suspicious; there's at least one scum between any pair of two out of jeff/nero/geraint/owl.

[butterchurn]

You said that I had said that I would not vote Jeff or Owl. That was false. I get annoyed when someone misrepresents my posts consistently, regardless of their potential alignment. Saying that I'm annoyed that you're "forcing me to bus" is laughable. You have been strawmanning constantly and I do not have endless patience for that.

To answer your question, obviously yes and as I have said before I still have no idea where you came up with the idea that I wouldn't.

[butterchurn]

look how dishonest this is. Of course, you are willing to vote Ger, no one ever said you weren't.

You literally did

[butterchurn]

Yes, a cross is when two people vote each other in ELo. In my experience (mostly offsite, to be fair, but I've seen it here too), when there is a cross in ELo, general practice is to eliminate there. Both of the people voting, from a town perspective, would have the person they are voting be confirmed as scum by virtue of the game not being over, so it is usually rare that someone would be willing to switch away from voting who is in their eyes confirmed scum. I don't really care if we follow that practice or not, but I thought that was generally understood to be how things worked. Ger thought the same, I'm not alone in this:

we are clearly voting between 2 today. but no one should do anything until everyone checks in. and no one should have done anything

[butterchurn]

????

If Ger is still your top scum read why do you keep saying that you won't vote him today?

If Ger is still your top scum read why do you keep saying that you won't vote him today?

If Ger is still your top scum read why do you keep saying that you won't vote him today?

[butterchurn]

I don't think this is productive anymore. You just keep saying over and over again "You said X, but I KNOW you actually think Y. Why do you think Y, you scum?". It's useless.

I think there's some chance you're just ridiculously tunnel visioned town who can't even see what's in front of him anymore, but it's hard to believe at this point that this level of strawmanning doesn't come from scum.

[butterchurn]

Yes, I did say that it looked like I wasn't going to vote Ger. I responded to that point earlier. That is irrelevant to the fact that these statements were false:

Of course, you are willing to vote Ger, no one ever said you weren't.

nowhere did I mention that you were unwilling to vote Ger

[butterchurn]

if you were town you'd be willing to work with me to vote whichever of Owl/Jeff you think is scum but you don't seem very willing to do that.

Why doesn't that go both ways? If you were town you'd be willing to work with me. I was willing. I still am, despite you testing my patience to its limits. You were the one who voted Jeff without any discussion (which was objectively selfish and anti-town, regardless of how suspicious you were). You are the one who is so convinced that I'm scum that you refuse to even consider the town perspective behind my posts, and repeatedly go off about things that I never said. Nothing I say has any meaning to you because you are just choosing to interpret it in wildly different ways in order to suit your narrative. If you're scum, this is just a pointless distraction, and if you're town, you're making it impossible to work with you.

[butterchurn]

I would like to hear what Jeff and Owl have to say and be able to ask them some questions. I don't plan on voting until I've heard from them (and like you said, it probably doesn't really matter who I vote since the masons control things at the moment). There are no mathematically confirmed scum from my perspective and I don't know why you're saying that there are.

Just to be clear where I stand, I previously thought that scum was most likely to be geraint, Owl, and then one of you/Jeff. I think from that alone it should have been clear to you that I would prefer to vote either of geraint or owl over either of you or Jeff -- they're my top 2 individual scumreads and they're both in the 2 teams that I think are most likely. I still think those two teams are the most likely, but the way that you're trying to get out of the cross and switch to a choice between Owl/Jeff instead makes me think that you/geraint/Jeff is more likely than I previously thought, and that you/jeff/owl is even less likely.

[butterchurn]

maybe if you voted scum with me I wouldn't scum read you. Did you ever think of that?

This is where my frustration is coming from. You keep insisting that I am unwilling to vote who you think is scum, and that therefore I am scum, when I have never said or implied that and have repeatedly said that the assertion is not true.

[butterchurn]

I would prefer a vote on geraint because I think he's scum, yes. I don't expect that to happen, though, so I'm willing to vote elsewhere. I'm not pushing for your wagon, you've just been acting more scummy lately than you were previously.

[butterchurn]

Yes, of course (at least) 1 of Owl or Jeff is scum. I've never disputed that. It's just not a particularly useful statement to make. At least 1 of you or Ger is scum. At least 1 of you or Jeff is scum. At least 1 of you or Owl is scum. At least 1 of Ger or Jeff is scum. And at least 1 of Ger or Owl is scum. The same logic applies to all of them. There's nothing mathematically confirmed about Jeff or Owl that is any different from any other pair of two. I know things look different from your perspective, but it isn't very meaningful from mine.

Agreed though, we can just wait.

[butterchurn]

lylo votes are not locked, as far as I know.

[butterchurn]

unrelated but i just skimmed the day-long bickering, all i took from it is that 'if you have a singular townread in the non-masons then any 2 of the remainder contains scum'

Incorrect. There's 2 masons, and 5 others. 3 of the 5 are scum. For any town among that 5, it should be immediately obvious to them that 3 of the remaining 4 are scum, and therefore that 1 of any 2 out of that 4 is scum (because there's only 1 town in the group). If you have a townread, then you know the remaining 3 are the scumteam. What you said is true only if from your perspective, the remaining 4 is actually composed of 2 town and 2 scum, and I can think of exactly one reason why that might be the case. I feel like you should know this already if you're town, but it seems like Nero didn't really get it either, and you're not both town, so maybe I'm overestimating how much other people think about this sort of thing.

You didn't get a response from geraint to 169 or 171. Why did you choose not to follow up on them? I thought it was a good idea. I remember in 120 you prodded me for a response to your post when it didn't even have a direct question (which I thought was a bit odd at the time). You asked geraint a much more direct question and then didn't prod at all. Explain? Additionally, in 148 you also said you had your own piece about this (geraint) and dug deeper, but never followed up on that either. What was your own piece?

[butterchurn]

The fact that I mentioned you bussing Jeff as a possibility does not mean I think it is the most likely option. In fact, I very specifically said that I thought it was less likely than the two possibilities of you/Owl/geraint and Jeff/Owl/geraint. I'm well aware that from your perspective if you're town, Jeff is basically confscum. And from Jeff's perspective if he's town, you're basically confscum. That's how a cross in ELo works. Neither of those do anything to change my own perspective and it's bizarre that you think it should.

[butterchurn]

Personally, I don't see any need to push forward with anything before Owl and yeezys check in. If you've made your decision on where to vote and don't see it changing, though, that's fine, I suppose. I'm still concerned about the possibility of a Nero/Owl/geraint team but I guess we'll find out shortly if that's it or not.

[butterchurn]

I don't really see any reason for the lim today to be anything but Jeff -- if he's town, NM and ger will end the game as soon as ger shows up, and if they don't then he's scum and we can vote him out. I'm willing to vote there once the replacements have caught up and are ready to move forward.

But a quick ISO of butterchurn in this game compared to his other completed game on-site makes me feel pretty odd about him. The general impression I get from his posts in this game is that he's trying to *present* information, to *persuade* in what he writes. Where in his other game everything felt more like *analysis*.

Pretty vague general observation but it's my initial impression. We'll see if it holds up when I read more in-depth.

I could see this being accurate to some extent, at least in regards to how I interact with others and how I'm approaching scumhunting. My previous game I was new to the site, rusty, and generally felt less confident and comfortable engaging with others, and focused more on (imo weaker) isolated analysis and meta reads, and was somewhat careful and second-guessing in a way that I think was detrimental to my play. By endgame though I think I fell more into what is my more natural playstyle, and after having one game under my belt I felt more willing to approach this game in a similar way.

[butterchurn]

I was thinking butter was the third b/c he was light pushing Ger and I get the vibe that he really doesn't want to vote in OWL and Jeff and he has the weird circular logic Jeff is scum and he's pushing a me/owl team but then when I offered to vote Owl then he says I'm trying to get out of my 1v1 against Jeff. dammed if I do dammed if I don't. Also him and Jeff cheerleading a Scorp wagon but not voting there was really bad.

I was open to voting Owl, as I said at the time, but it was still worth noting that you trying to get out of the 1v1 had an effect on my opinion of which teams were more likely. You have consistently had an incorrect understanding (or you're misrepresenting them intentionally) of where my suspicions were despite me being very clear about them. I thought Ger was most likely to be mafia, followed by Owl. Those two were who I saw as most likely partners, and I was trying to figure out which was more likely to be the 3rd between you and Jeff. You/Jeff/Ger was a possible but less likely option (as I noted, I started seeing it as more likely after you offered to switch off Jeff, but it still seemed less likely to me than the teams of Owl/Ger and you or Jeff). You/Owl/Jeff was very unlikely, and only got less likely in my eyes as the Day progressed.

You think it would have been more pro-town for me to vote Scorp? The first 2 Days ended way early. I think that significantly hurt town. Why would I as town want to push the wagon faster and end the Day early again? It's just going to reduce discussion and analysis and dayplay even further. I was clearly willing to vote him, it's not like the fact that I wasn't on the wagon looks any better (in fact I think it looks worse), so what exactly is my scum motivation to not vote?

[butterchurn]

You're clearly a much more impatient player than I am (I genuinely do not mean to be insulting here, apologies if it comes off that way, I think it's just a different approach to the game). You voted fua 12 hours after you said that it was better to wait and burn some deadline. You hammered Scorp and ended the Day early. You voted Jeff toDay right away before there was time for any discussion. I don't play like that, and I don't particularly think it helps town to do so. I value dayplay and discussion much higher, and in general prefer to wait unless there's a good reason not to. It's possible that a lot of this just comes down to a playstyle difference.

[butterchurn]

To give a specific example in the case of Scorp -- I think it's more valuable to see how people respond to my stated suspicion and willingness to vote than it is to vote right away. I'll learn the alignment of whoever is being limmed either way, but this way I get to learn more about everyone else and there's more information in the thread to work with. Shoving the wagons in and ending the Days early has cut off a lot of that information that we would otherwise have to work with in a more typical game, and it's made it harder to hunt scum.

[butterchurn]

I hammered Jeff after 4 days, we had all discussed and everyone had checked in. No one said anything about your not voting Scorp.

but I wasn't voting to get reactions

don't really buy it

If you mean hammering Scorp, not Jeff, there was plenty of discussion that still could have been had, but I don't think it was a bad hammer, just not a choice that I would have made. And what? You just said something about me not voting Scorp in 693, which I was responding to. Do you mean prior to that, and if so, what's the relevance of that?

[butterchurn]

but is that true? You and Jeff voted Yeezy 24 hours and you didn't wait. What's the difference?

The difference between pushing in a wagon/hammering and being the first vote on a wagon should be obvious to you. One brings us closer to the end of the Day or directly brings it about, and the other does not. Voting early in ELo is also significantly different, because if you're town and vote town, the game ends.

I voted Jeff at day start b/c he's obvious scum (and why you don't think that makes me think you are scum with him.) You expressed interest in voting Owl b/c thats who you think is scum (b/c he is!) I said I'd join you and then you blasted me for trying to leave this 1v1. Like you can't have it both ways. I mean now you are saying lets do Jeff but earlier you didn't

I didn't blast you at all, I thought it was odd behavior from you, and mentioned how my perceived likelihood of teams had changed as a result, but was still open to a switch. And no, earlier I was also willing to vote Jeff, and expected that I would be voting either Jeff or you. I thought Jeff was more suspicious than you (and said so), but wanted to wait to see how he responded to some questions I had for him. He mostly ignored them.

[butterchurn]

yes, I meant that I hammed Scorp. Deadline only lasts a week, day 3 had gone on for 4 days, and practically everyone wanted scorp dead. It was just stalling and avoiding the inevitable . Yes disscussion is good but when a day drags it can cause apathy.

I think that's a reasonable and understandable position to have. Personally I think more discussion could have been valuable and that's why I didn't vote yet, but like I said, I think that could just be a difference in playstyle and priorities.

[butterchurn]

Owl is now Not_Mafia, so I'm guessing he won't know the thought process.

[butterchurn]

VOTE: Not_Mafia

[butterchurn]

Nice read Klick. Was scary to have you just show up in the thread and zero in on the full team.

Sorry it had to end that way, Nero, the effort you put in deserved at least 1 or 2 mafia kills out of that.

Our nightkills were rather poor, probably didn't deserve to win that one.