Mini Normal 2242 | Opossum Mafia | Game Over!

[TheZenMan]

I'm at work doing this when I really should be working haha. You guys are really active, most people jumping in within 8 hours. I used to play mafia at teamliquid but the TL mafia scene is basically dead so I moved here. I'm a little rusty though but hopefully I'll be fine.

[TheZenMan]

wow scummy
VOTE: House

Serious vote?
also ahhhhhh it's 4:11 am and i have a physics exam today
what am i doing

Guess it's scummy to spam a pagetop out of boredom during rvs when nobody else is around.

Who knew?

You voted Bogdan.

Who is bogdan?

The guy that controls all of crypto, and always makes it dump for me

[TheZenMan]

Been away for a while and skimmed the thread. Gut feeling for me is that Cool's insistence on still lynching someone like redtea after the claim is flimsy to me at best. Read the claim and redtea was basically forced to claim, and seems weird to claim complex vig then. Also find it weird that cool is insistent that because redtea is complex vig he can't be of use. Why are you so sure of that?

[TheZenMan]

TBH, I am very suspicous about the redtea lynching wagon happening so fast and quick. Definetly wasn't a pure wagon and probably some scum bandwagoning there. If redtea really is vig then there are ways to confirm that (2 nks maybe). The only ones I'm seeing that could benefit of redtea dying at this point is probably scum.

[TheZenMan]

In case it isn't clear, I don't think scum actively try to do scummy things Day 1. This is the only Day where you can feasibly get somebody voted out for looking at you weird, so why the hell would scum blatantly try to look scummy right now?

Does any scum ever try to look scummy? You kind of just look for the ones that do the most scum things and hope for the best. Besides, if it was one of their own being a lynch target I could see them trying to save him and in the process acting scummy.

[TheZenMan]

Peace treaties and truces in mafia games are weird

Agree with this, to me it makes it seem like it was a fake fight just to not make town think they have any connection. Have seen scum do this before.

[TheZenMan]

VOTE: Almost50
A50 no post = ???

Lol, at this point you should have voted me since I had said nothing for days. A50 just got subbed in basically.

[TheZenMan]

Mech talk bores me because scum and town can do it equally well so it's harder to get a read on it

Exactly this, it's a bad way to scumhunt by only talking mech. You can just argue facts back and forth but have no idea about alignment. As scum I would love to talk about mechanics though, it makes you seem really active and engaged with a really low chance of exsposing yourself.

[TheZenMan]

Imo, readtea should shootsomeone n1 then tell us who he shot after deadline for n1 actions has passed. That way we can confirm his claim and also get rid of a potential scum.

[TheZenMan]

Imo, readtea should shootsomeone n1 then tell us who he shot after deadline for n1 actions has passed. That way we can confirm his claim and also get rid of a potential scum.

You mean on D2? This is post is confusing.

I meant in the last 30 min before d2 begins, where night actions can't be changed by anyone. If he does that we can know who he shot and who scum shot. Basically a way for us to confirm he is a vig.

[TheZenMan]

Imo, readtea should shootsomeone n1 then tell us who he shot after deadline for n1 actions has passed. That way we can confirm his claim and also get rid of a potential scum.

You mean on D2? This is post is confusing.

I meant in the last 30 min before d2 begins, where night actions can't be changed by anyone. If he does that we can know who he shot and who scum shot. Basically a way for us to confirm he is a vig.

You can’t talk at night.

Oh... Did not know this, usually play with Nighttalk allowed.

[TheZenMan]

who in my poe do i vote next

I think you should OMGUS.

VOTE: Jacket

His ISO is a nothing-burger, and I don't like his push on one of our only players who are actually up in here trying to solve.

You think T3 is legitimately trying to solve? Because it looks to me like he's just spewing a lot of nonsense. The post I quoted of his was a huge reach and looked like scum trying to bury a townie.

And if you think my posting is a "nothing-burger", you're not paying attention. Just because I'm not incessantly spamming doesn't mean I have nothing to say.

My reads are always genuine, even if I'm scum. You can look at my past games to see.
So this reason is bs

What do you mean "genuine"? As in good? Had trouble understanding what you meant here.

[TheZenMan]

Oh, so I just misunderstood, then. I thought you were referring to Three when you said ‘if he is scum’.

Oh he was jacket

VOTE: Almost50
A50 no post = ???

VOTE: Dwlee
dude

Hello?

UNVOTE: dwlee
hi
I voted you because bad reasons
I unvoted you because you voted someone else

It wasn't an awful reason. A50 must have confirmed to be announced which I thought meant he should be around.

Like A50 said, takes time to read through the thread.

And like I said before, you should have voted for me since I was someone that had atleast commented in thread before, then basically vanished. That would have been a kind of easy push, but still a legitimate one. Going after A50 seemed like you just picked someone without any comment as an easy/safe elim target to push, but without much reprucussions.

[TheZenMan]

Do you think my vote on a50 there could have led even close to an elimination unless he lurked out for the next 3 days?

Not saying it could have led to an elim, I'm saying it's a very easy push to give yourself some towncred. And imo it was also the wrong push, since I was a better target for it.

[TheZenMan]

Imo, readtea should shootsomeone n1 then tell us who he shot after deadline for n1 actions has passed. That way we can confirm his claim and also get rid of a potential scum.

Tell us how? Did you have thread open during the night wherever you played before?

Yeah, we used to have the thread open during the night, and a lot of PR would use this to claim just before the deadline. This would prevent mafia from targeting them for that night, and also gave us some good info.

[TheZenMan]

Btw, is anyone else failing to connect to FACEBOOK? I even used a test site and couldn't complete the query

Yep, all their services seems down. Insta, Whatsapp and messenger not working either.

[TheZenMan]

Dwele, feels like most of your argument of Three being scum is that he townread you? Assuming that new people scumread you naturally is a bad take and way to general to apply to everyone. Some people can think that playstyle is town indicative. Feels at this point you are just tunneling three because you are afraid to move off him or for the sake of having someone to push.

[TheZenMan]

I think for me Cool cookie is the most scumread right now. Hence my vote on him. But Dwele is a scumread for me as well.

VOTE: cool cookie

[TheZenMan]

I would say my 3 big scumreads right now are Cool, George and Dwele in that order. Just went through George's ISO and he has nothing of substance at all. I couldn't even find him scum or town reading anyone. He comes in with the most useless comments when he could just as easily just give us some of his thoughts about who he thinks is scum. For example:

why the fuck am i being lumped in with zen and wake/a50.

He comes back after 2 days immedietly after being called out as scum and lumped in with other inactive players (myself included). Could be a coincidence that he chooses to come in right after being called out but it's still a bad look. Plus he is outraged about being called out when it was very reasonable given his inactivity. Yet he still dosen't give us anything, his only contribution is saying "good question" then being gone for hours again. When he comes back he posts this:

What if it’s just 2 PRs and the traitor? No goons abound.

Very possible since there's multi tasking.

This was rightly called out by Jacket, since he chooses to comment on this when there is so much else better he could have taken a stance on. No scumreading, just a useless comment that dosen't say much to us. No mentioning about the stuff going down with redtea and cool at all.

Then he goes on to write this:

What if it’s just 2 PRs and the traitor? No goons abound.

Very possible since there's multi tasking.

This is the thing you decide to jump in and comment on?

I was MIA during the weekend and I'm posting on break. Idk. Just trying to get a grip on the game right now. I'm gonna post more in depth stuff after work.

Where he promises to give more in depth stuff after work. Obviously he never did that so we still have zero clue on who George thinks is scum or his read on anyone really. Now, I can understand IRL stuff happening and getting in the way. But the thing with George is, even when he is here he gives us nothing at all about who he thinks is scum. Instead he gives us short comments or fluff stuffs that dosen't really take a stance on anything and basically seems to be comments for the sake of comments. All in all he seems very scummy to me.

[TheZenMan]

Alright I give up on Hawaiian.


Unranked:
redtea


Town:
Jacket
House
Dwlee
fua
Almost50


Null:

T3
Three
Save The Dragons
cool cookie

HawaiianPizza

Scum:

TheZenMan



-RedTea. While I agree with Jacket 370 that RedTea's claimed felt very convenient, I think it's best to give it one night to see what happens. I also think RedTea acted pretty good under pressure

-Cookie being leading wagon is pretty interesting. Informed holding off info isn't really that scummy if it's info on another PR or something that could harm town. So I don't scumread cookie. Nothing faer have posted seems townie though. If Cookie flips green, scum is 100% on this wagon.

- Jacket and Fua gave me early townread vibes. I find myself agreeing to a lot of Jacket's reads. Still trying to find a way to make a "literally me" joke. Fua from their interactions with DwLee.

- Dwlee gave me lax town vibes early. Although the activity reads against a50 that are reachy which is why they're my weakest townread. And offering the hammer to other people for RedTea felt kinda scummy too.

- Almost50's catch up posts were pretty good. Although I really don't see the Jacket scumread. The defense against Dwlee in 929 was towny. His claim also feels the most believable, as I think it's riskier for scum to claim after 2 claims already.

-T3 has sooo much content and stuff feels towny but I don't feel comfortable townleaning him.. 417 Gives me townie vibes but the push on Jacket makes no sense to me.

- House is an epic top town read. Idk if he's in my pocket, or he just reads naturally townie. But I haven't been pinged by any of his posts.

- STD is Null. A lot of naked votes with not a lot of elaboration.

-Zen's recent shade on me feels like a misrep. Like, I was mad at being lumped in with both of you cause you/a50 had 2 and 0 posts. I also said I was scumreading three and townreading Jacket early on.

- I don't understand the townread on Hawaiian.

- Three: at the time I voted three he had three posts. Which was pretty cool. I was secretly hoping it was a gimmick account that made 3 posts a day or something. I initially scumread him because of the lack of anything +, bringing redtea to e-2. But I think his defense has been pretty solid recently, and my vote on him has very much overstayed it's welcome.


VOTE: Zenman

If Zen flips scum then the other scum was on the redtea wagon. I feel like scum would hop on a potential mis-elim wagon with their scum partner MIA for the first day or so.

Vote Count 1.02

redtea (6):

HawaiianPizza, cool cookie, House, redtea, Three, fua

(E-1)

So just one scumread and the other are all null/town? No one sees anything suspicious about this? The guy he goes for is also someone already scumreading him, so he loses nothing by putting me at the bottom there. I feel George is trying to stay on as many peoples good sides as possible.

[TheZenMan]

What is the wagon on three for?

[TheZenMan]

Feels like both George and Cool are going after me for the simple reason that I went after them. That's not really a good reason in my mind, and I can't really find either of them making a good case on me.

[TheZenMan]

I could go zenman maybe

Okay, because?

[TheZenMan]

I don't know what that puts me at, but I assume we're wagoning me despite there being no legitimate case at this point. Real fun wasting my week on this game just to get miseliminated but whatever.

I'm VT.

alas that's often the way in mafia - the games where you put most effort in are the ones you get limmed early. that said, maybe a slightly premature claim at like 4 votes with emotional appeal to boot.

Yeah yeah AtE whatever, getting annoyed at getting eliminated Day 1 when you effort is NAI either way. I genuinely thought I was closer than E-3 though since last I checked I had three votes and I thought I saw three more come my way.

I would offer to just get shot by redtea to prove I'm VT, but I understand it could just mean I'm the BP Traitor, and even though I think redtea is telling the truth I understand that not everyone believes them either.

I think you are getting a bit too emotionally invested in the game. Remember it's just a game at the end of the day.

I looked for a bit but still didn't see a case made on you. Your reaction however for me reads as town.

[TheZenMan]

I could go zenman maybe

Okay, because?

You're in my poe and George said a lot of words

George one argument for me is that he didn't like my push on him. Feels more like a reaction to me accusing him rather than actual scumhunting.

[TheZenMan]

Did people read the post I made below about George? Feels like people are sleeping on how scummy he really has been this whole game.



viewtopic.php?p=13038212#p13038212

[TheZenMan]

I wouldn't say I'm emotionally invested, I'm just annoyed that I think I've defended myself well but it seems to keep getting ignored. A lot of naked votes keep coming my way, so I'm not exactly sure what I can do here, because if I argue against those naked votes it's just going to look like shade/OMGUS even though they're pretty objectively bad votes.

Yeah, I get it. And I agree it's not really good to throw out OMGUS, it's just reactionary. Remember, scum could always influence the wagons and try to get you elimmed.

[TheZenMan]

Feels like both George and Cool are going after me for the simple reason that I went after them. That's not really a good reason in my mind, and I can't really find either of them making a good case on me.

no there were several people voting for me. i'm voting you because you joined a wagon on me literally because it was the biggest wagon but didn't give any other reason. i did already say that of course, so you didn't look too hard apparently.

That's just a blatant lie, I gave my impression from you right at the start. Jumping on you had nothing with you being the most votes. Am I not supposed to go after you because you have too many votes? Obv you don't wanna get elimmed but come on, you can't gatekeep me from voting you. Also you said yourself you were salty and clearly that was a big factor for you in going after me.

[TheZenMan]

We have 24 hours until the deadline.

I think Zenman’s reaction to the suspicion placed upon him is really shady on top of trying to pin the blame on an easy target like George (who is a mostly passive and easy ‘lim’ anyways). I feel like if he flips scum then that’ll be telling regarding the alignments of multiple people— specifically George, Three, and Cookie.

VOTE: Zenman

You went from reading me as town to reading me as scum way too fast IMO. Also have to say that the neighbour prodding against A50 was also shady, felt like both you and Dwele were trying to find out who the other guy was even when it was clear that A50 didn't want to come forward with that.

[TheZenMan]

I don't really understand Fua's town read on T3 but I'm assuming it's meta that I don't know about. Being Neighbors with A50 doesn't even mean either are conftown unless there were Night 0 Loyal Neighborizer shenanigans, which I seriously doubt happened.

It's not even confirmed that they are neighbours.

[TheZenMan]

I think it's best I just do this now. I am a

Town Neighbor

. A50 is my neighbour and can confirm that for you.

[TheZenMan]

VOTE: george

I guess we're back to this.

VOTE: George

Is there a case on him?

Yeah I made a case on him around 2 days ago about his scummy behaviour.

[TheZenMan]

WTF finally people are picking up on George. I'm very down with that.

VOTE: George

[TheZenMan]

VOTE: GeorgeBailey

[TheZenMan]

Not sure if T3 withholding his check last night is town or scum. I'd think scum would just bring up some bullshit easy read that won't draw up suspicions but won't help town either. Not giving the info, however, not sure what to make of it.

[TheZenMan]

The first thing I thought was that maybe T3 found a mason pairing and cookie is a part of it. But that would make no sense since odd nights he is traffic analyst, so he won't know if the secret chat is scum, mason or neighbour.

[TheZenMan]

I do not understand what T3 could know that cookie somehow can confirm. But it does seem like an incredibly risky move to do this from a scum perspective.

[TheZenMan]

TBH, I think it was a bad choice to shoot three by redtea. And announcing it beforehand was even worse. I also missed that redtea had wanted to shoot him, thought he would keep it to himself and tell us D2.

Now, we waste 2 shots of a vig just to confirm that three isn't a BP or a PR, but still don't know if he's scum or town. From a town-perspective, I'd rather he shot one of the ones that hadn't claimed that he was suspicous off. That would be a lot more useful for town.

[TheZenMan]

It's also significant that scum didn't shoot T3. If A50 hadn't claimed Neighbourhood right off the bat I would understand why scum would think they could let T3 live one night. It might even benefit them, since if T3 finds a private chat they could just claim to be a neighbourhood and kill T3 N2 before he could confirm that with his even days neighbour finder power. But with the A50 claim there is a much higher chance that if he finds a private chat(outside of me and A50) in N1 they will be scum. So I would think he would have been priority target for killing N1.

[TheZenMan]

Isn't a cookie lim more informative to town? T3 being scum implicates cookie, so limming him would give us more info. If he is scum we can assume T3 is scum too. If he really is informed townie we could revisit some stuff and also potentially saving an investigative PR role. Plus, apparently T3 will only give us the info if we kill cookie, so there is also that.

[TheZenMan]

Or rather, T3 will only give us the info if cookie dies. That's what I understood he said anyway, but T3

[TheZenMan]

Or rather, T3 will only give us the info if cookie dies. That's what I understood he said anyway, but T3 should clarify this.

[TheZenMan]

Isn't a cookie lim more informative to town? T3 being scum implicates cookie, so limming him would give us more info. If he is scum we can assume T3 is scum too. If he really is informed townie we could revisit some stuff and also potentially saving an investigative PR role. Plus, apparently T3 will only give us the info if we kill cookie, so there is also that.

If cookie is a mailman that sent T3 info on how to crumb to him, that doesn't make cookie scum...

No ACTUAL investigative refuses to give results unless you kill someone not related TO those results first.

I'm always voting T3 over cookie, here.

But dosen't cookie also hold the information from us now? He apparently knows or atlest knows more than us about what T3 found N1.

The thing about no actual investigative refusing to give results, I agree with you. But it's just so blatantly scummy to me that it's almost too much. I also would think that if T3 was scum he could just make up a bullshit check for N1. If his objective is to confuse town however he has succeded but also produced a big target on himself.

[TheZenMan]

T3 claimed under duress a role that should have had him catching a bullet.

He not only lived through the night, he refuses to out results.

My guess is, he doesn't want to wind up getting it wrong and having his "results" countered.

Yeah, I said this before too that it was weird that T3 survived N1. Make no mistake he is very scummy to me right now and I could go for D2 elim of him.

About the second point, shouldn't it be easy to fake result since the neighbourhood is outed?

[TheZenMan]

Isn't a cookie lim more informative to town? T3 being scum implicates cookie, so limming him would give us more info. If he is scum we can assume T3 is scum too. If he really is informed townie we could revisit some stuff and also potentially saving an investigative PR role. Plus, apparently T3 will only give us the info if we kill cookie, so there is also that.

NO. A T3 red flip confirms Cookie as TOWN. T3 has just called faer that. cookie is also the one who said fae can't confirm T3's alignment.

Sorry still not used to all abbreviations. What's fae and faer?

[TheZenMan]

And by hard, I mean impossible.

Yeah probably, but I meant more that since the neighbourhood is outed already it is easy for T3 to make a fake check. Unless you think there is a second neighbourhood?

[TheZenMan]

And by hard, I mean impossible.

Yeah probably, but I meant more that since the neighbourhood is outed already it is easy for T3 to make a fake check. Unless you think there is a second neighbourhood?

I highly doubt there is, which is why a positive result outside of the claimed hood would be damning.

When that "positive result" flipped green, T3 would die the next day.

If that "negative result" claimed a way to communicate, T3 would die the same day.

Ahh, I forgot that mailman also comes up as can communicate for traffic analyst. Yeah I see what you mean then.

VOTE: T3

[TheZenMan]

Just read up, also just found out that private players alone in private topics also show up for traffic analyst. Guess I should have read the fine print instead of scimming it

[TheZenMan]

It IS TMI. T3 had just slipped real hard. Let's review the facts:

TRAITOR IS ENDGAMED IF THE MAIN TEAM IS ELIMINATED
2 players are outed as Neighbors
1 is now also outed as Mailman

A "can communicate" result is an outright guilty. WHy not claim it?
A "can't communicate" is enough evidence the target is not MAIN SCUM, so why keep it undercover?

T3 is PLAYING FOR TIME. H;s TAKING SU ALL FOR A RIDE. And if you add this to how long it took him to claim yesterday you get: T3 is OUTED SCUM.

I TARGETED JACKET AND GOT NO RESULT

Why would you keep this a secret? And what is the connection to cookie? Did he ask you to crumb your result to him? If so, show us where you did that.

[TheZenMan]

@House: If I'm wrong I ESPECIALLY apologize to you. I know I'm being "unfriendly" to you with this accusation, and I should probably stop trying to read you in furture games.

You really should.

Aside from that, what do you think of the rest of my solve? Why did you volunteer to be shot instead of STD? Why prefer a second shot on three? (Which coincidentally is what zen suggested in the hood too, after having had been alright with a shot on STD)[/quote

Wait what? I never said I was okay with a second shot on three, I said the complete opposite.

And I said I was fine with std shot but directly after I wrote I would rather have T3 shot and elim someone else D2.

[TheZenMan]

I don't think it's worth requesting a PT of my own, so I'll just vent it all out here:

Me thinks House is a Goon. Me thinks he thinks I'm their Traitor. STD is actually a Scum PR, and T3 is what he says he is, but is Scum aligned. Zen is the BP Traitor.

T3's role was designed for Scum to identify their Traitor in at least 2 steps, and the Mailman is their "Miller" (gives them a false +ve)

If I', wrong I'm wrong. If I'm right though... call me a monkey.

@House: If I'm wrong I ESPECIALLY apologize to you. I know I'm being "unfriendly" to you with this accusation, and I should probably stop trying to read you in furture games.

@Zen: I really did TR you hard before. I just had a different perspective to look at things the way T3 has claimed his role yesterday, and then his result today. I know you have voiced your suspicion of him in the PT, so -by play- you should still be a TR, but the mechanical solution necessitates that you are the Traitor. Also SORRY if I'm wrong

@STD: Your "I don't want to lim T3" was the final nail. I already started thinking of the situation when House volunteered to be shot instead of you, and again when he asserted redtea should shoot three again. It looked like a blatant attempt to deter the shot off you (and confirmed the team doesn't have a RB), but if you had voted T3 I probably would have thought it was too crazy to be true.

@T3: I don't know what to say, but your scum play is so much different than your Town play. Also..



OK.. watch me be disgraced by having only 0-1 Scum in my proposed solve. If that's the case.. it's just a game.. and I'm still a crazy old monkey.

Wow you just dropped a bomb casually out of nowhere. Np mate it's all a game in the end so no need to say sorry.

The truth is I started to suspect you were the traitor actually, gonna write up why in my next post here.

[TheZenMan]

Okay, so here is why I suspected A50 was the traitor. Now, first of all I just like to say that I was never VT like I claimed but actually BP VT neighbour. I claimed VT in hopes of drawing a night kill to me. A50 at that point agreed this was a good strat in the PT. But here is the comment he made that made me think he was the traitor:

Here's what I suspect is going on: Regardless of cookie's alignment, T3 claims to have checked Dwlee (I assume whoever he responds to first is the target). He sleeps on it and checks Dwlee on N2 and comes back with a GUILTY on D3 (Dwlee can communicate but is not a neighbor). By the time we realize we have been fooled we're already in E-Lo it's GAME OVER with 3 mis-eliminatiosn and 2 Nks (assuming a 9 v 4 distribution). Meamwhile, Redtea is preoccupied and the Scum PRs are safe for the 2 nights it takes them to achieve this.

If this is true, three is more likely truly claiming VANILLA, because if he is a Traitor his death prevents the Scum win on D3 (although they can still achieve it on N3). Whether he's VT or a Goon though is up in the air (but I would slightly lean Goon since he wanted to draw the Vig to himself)

In hindsight I should not have claimed my BP. That would have been risky because of the Complex Vig thing, but it would have been beneficial to draw the NK and take Scum by surprise.

Based on the above, I don't think Scum would ALSO have a RB. We don't have that much strength in our roles as Town collectively. So..

IF T3 IS NOT ELIMINATED TODAY I BEG FOR readtea TO SHOOT HIM TONIGHT

Notice the breadcrumb he left about he should have claimed BP. That was a very unnecessary sentence to make, and to me seemed like he was signalling his teammates that I was actually a BP.

And now coupled with the fact that he outright lied that I said redtea should shoot three again, when I in fact said the complete opposite. There is no way to interpret these actions as anything else but the traitor. Therefore I vote him.

VOTE: Almost50

[TheZenMan]

T3's role was designed for Scum to identify their Traitor in at least 2 steps, and the Mailman is their "Miller" (gives them a false +ve)

This is actually close to what I was thinking. Except it makes more sense for cool cookie to be the traitor, since mailman returns a positive to a traffic analyst but a negative to a neighbor finder.

Well.. I could lowkey see your point, with both BP neighbors designed to be -ve utilities for both sides. Scum get failed NKs and Town gets falls +ve (Via COMPLEX VIG though, NOT the TA/Neighbor Finder)

You don't see the problem with TWO players claiming identical roles AS TOWN?

That... completely flies over your head?

No. Just fucking no.

If you were town, you'd be screaming CC at Zen all day long.

This is the part that actually made me trust A50 the most in the beginning. He had the same role as me, and disclosed his before I did. That's what made me trust him because I figured we have the exact same role. But I gues BP traitor neighbour would claim to be a BP neighbour. I also found it weird that A50 went straight to claiming BP instead of trying to bait a shot with claiming Vanlilla. Then later he regrets it...

[TheZenMan]

You don't see the problem with TWO players claiming identical roles AS TOWN?

As a designer, I find it absolutely plausible.

The thing is I only claimed BP (not 1-shot BP), and zen immediately claimed ONE-SHOT in the hood. I thought he wouldn't have if he was Scum, and even if he was the Traitor (hypothetically I was considering it, but in practice I really thought h was Town) I thought keeping him alive and talking to me in the hood was best because he probably can give me some pointers as to who the scums are.

True, you claimed only BP and then said in the alley that you were also 1-shot BP after I said it first. I can accept you misunderstanding me about T3 shot, but why leave that strange breadcrumb for me actually being BP?

[TheZenMan]

T3's role was designed for Scum to identify their Traitor in at least 2 steps, and the Mailman is their "Miller" (gives them a false +ve)

This is actually close to what I was thinking. Except it makes more sense for cool cookie to be the traitor, since mailman returns a positive to a traffic analyst but a negative to a neighbor finder.

Well.. I could lowkey see your point, with both BP neighbors designed to be -ve utilities for both sides. Scum get failed NKs and Town gets falls +ve (Via COMPLEX VIG though, NOT the TA/Neighbor Finder)

You don't see the problem with TWO players claiming identical roles AS TOWN?

That... completely flies over your head?

No. Just fucking no.

If you were town, you'd be screaming CC at Zen all day long.

This is the part that actually made me trust A50 the most in the beginning. He had the same role as me, and disclosed his before I did. That's what made me trust him because I figured we have the exact same role. But I gues BP traitor neighbour would claim to be a BP neighbour. I also found it weird that A50 went straight to claiming BP instead of trying to bait a shot with claiming Vanlilla. Then later he regrets it...

Can you link to a (completed) game that has 2 of the same roles where both are town-aligned that gives you that belief?

Last I knew, that doesn't happen BECAUSE it leads to town cc'ing town.

I actually thought it was more likely we were both town because we had the same role. Like some strange mind games the designers were playing. I am not that familiar with setups here to know how plausible it was.

[TheZenMan]

Just wanna say that me voting for A50 is not a reactionary OMGUS to him saying I'm traitor. If not for that breadcrumb about me being BP he left and then outing me I would instead sit here trying to convince A50 he is wrong.

[TheZenMan]

Just wanna say that me voting for A50 is not a reactionary OMGUS to him saying I'm traitor. If not for that breadcrumb about me being BP he left and then outing me I would instead sit here trying to convince A50 he is wrong.

Isn't calling you a Traitor already saying you're BP; given the "info" cookie gave us on D1?

Ah true, I guess you are guilty of only leaving a breadcrumb for scum to find out I'm actually BP. That is the main reason I think you are a traitor anyway.

[TheZenMan]

Considering that revelation never came to you...

Let's take a look back:

1- Who outed the hood? I did.
2- Who claimed his BP in public? I did
3- Who accused the other of being the Traitor (after more info was available)? I DID

So.. if you're going to claim the Traitor is in the hood was the one and only conclusion I should've had right off the gate, you're still voting the wrong person.

But considering you're SCUM in my solve, I don't find you voting me strange at all. At least once I flip the Town will reconsider and "maybe" someone will decide to tackle the idea that I am correct, and IF your theory of an investigative is in the unclaimed slots is true then all the better.

The thing i find most odd about you is not only are you voting me, but you also claim to believe there might be some yet another unclaimed PR in addition to a Complex Vig (effectively half-Investigative) and a TA/Neighbor Finder (an Investigative).

So, tell me: is it a 3rd investigative you suspect there might exist, or a protective (that has no function because the VTs/Goons are immune to the Vig and we have 2 BP claims)?

Is claiming BP in public right off the bat a plus? I'd say it's rather a negative since better to try and tank a shot. You just went straight into claiming, didn't even try to feel me out in the hood before doing that.

Right now you are scumreading me solely because of mechanics. Plus you still haven't answered why you put out a breadcrumb for scum to know I was not vanilla but actually BP. You did this when you knew that I was trying to bait a shot as BP.

[TheZenMan]

i don't know what's happening in the neighbourhood, but as i'm rereading, A50 claimed the BP and zen did nothing about it? shrug

I thought it actually made sense we both had the same role in the neighbourhood. It was just too big of a coincidence too. He started off saying he was BP, I then said I was 1-shot BP and he said he was actually also a 1-shot BP. So I believed him because I had a strong townread on him and because I actually thought of our roles being the same as a big town indicator.

[TheZenMan]

Considering that revelation never came to you...

Let's take a look back:

1- Who outed the hood? I did.
2- Who claimed his BP in public? I did
3- Who accused the other of being the Traitor (after more info was available)? I DID

So.. if you're going to claim the Traitor is in the hood was the one and only conclusion I should've had right off the gate, you're still voting the wrong person.

But considering you're SCUM in my solve, I don't find you voting me strange at all. At least once I flip the Town will reconsider and "maybe" someone will decide to tackle the idea that I am correct, and IF your theory of an investigative is in the unclaimed slots is true then all the better.

The thing i find most odd about you is not only are you voting me, but you also claim to believe there might be some yet another unclaimed PR in addition to a Complex Vig (effectively half-Investigative) and a TA/Neighbor Finder (an Investigative).

So, tell me: is it a 3rd investigative you suspect there might exist, or a protective (that has no function because the VTs/Goons are immune to the Vig and we have 2 BP claims)?

Is claiming BP in public right off the bat a plus? I'd say it's rather a negative since better to try and tank a shot. You just went straight into claiming, didn't even try to feel me out in the hood before doing that.

Right now you are scumreading me solely because of mechanics. Plus you still haven't answered why you put out a breadcrumb for scum to know I was not vanilla but actually BP. You did this when you knew that I was trying to bait a shot as BP.

no, claiming BP in a game with a bullet-proof traitor is never a good look, so agree claiming it first is a negative on Almost50. The problem is, you were so reckless Day 1 with no real care about who you voted for, you read as worse in a way. in an ordinary game, you are both scum and both get elimmed.

Yeah, I will agree I was reckless D1 voting. I honestly should have gone after Geroge fully from the start. It was partly influenced by A50 who was by biggest town-read then and wanted to go after you D1, but also because I had an initial scumread on you. You being the mailman changes things obviously, and also I think A50 is the traitor now. Both of us being scum however is unlikely given us going after each other so hard, especially since now at least one of us is probably going to be limmed.

[TheZenMan]

Honestly the more I think about it, the more sure I am that A50 is the traitor. Just look at his actions:

1. Claimed BP right off the bat without even trying to talk to me first and feel me out.
2. Claimed BP first but then changed that to 1-shot BP after I did.
3. Agreed that I should claim VT in order to bait scum NK, but then left them a breadcrumb that I might be BP.

Although this is mostly in hindsight and there was a lot of things A50 did that made me see him as town. But I wasn't ever even slightly suspicious of him until he did that 3rd scummy thing, which in my mind an experienced player like him wouldn't really make.

[TheZenMan]

I think Almost50 was kidding, but if not the answer is that you keep the results secret so scum don't know who to NK - otherwise all your clears get killed.

Seriously? They kill the clears and not the slot that declares them as clears? That's a new one.

= Oh, shit! He's a Cop. Should we kill him?
- Nope. We wait to see who he checks and then we shoot that person

Makes perfect sense, except... HE DIDN'T EVEN GET A CLEAR! He got a NO RESULT!

They either kill him or roleblock him. In this case he was roleblocked, since he got no result.

[TheZenMan]

the only reason i'm not on A50 right now is because i think he's the traitor and i want to find scum

hmm i made the point earlier that there is little reason to believe Almost50 couldn't simply be group-scum as opposed to traitor. Group-scum claiming bulletproof to get 'off the hook' is a predictable play for Almost50 here.

I think it's way more likely that A50 is BP traitor. He claimed BP neighbor right away, which would just be his role minus the traitor part. He did this before even talking to me, so he didn't yet know I was a 1-shot BP neighbor.

Plus, I believe he tried to leave a breadcrumb for his scum partners that I was also BP when I had claimed VT and was trying to draw scum shot to me.

[TheZenMan]

Plus, I believe he tried to leave a breadcrumb for his scum partners that I was also BP when I had claimed VT and was trying to draw scum shot to me.

Where did this happen?

It's in this post:

Here's what I suspect is going on: Regardless of cookie's alignment, T3 claims to have checked Dwlee (I assume whoever he responds to first is the target). He sleeps on it and checks Dwlee on N2 and comes back with a GUILTY on D3 (Dwlee can communicate but is not a neighbor). By the time we realize we have been fooled we're already in E-Lo it's GAME OVER with 3 mis-eliminatiosn and 2 Nks (assuming a 9 v 4 distribution). Meamwhile, Redtea is preoccupied and the Scum PRs are safe for the 2 nights it takes them to achieve this.

If this is true, three is more likely truly claiming VANILLA, because if he is a Traitor his death prevents the Scum win on D3 (although they can still achieve it on N3). Whether he's VT or a Goon though is up in the air (but I would slightly lean Goon since he wanted to draw the Vig to himself)

In hindsight I should not have claimed my BP. That would have been risky because of the Complex Vig thing, but it would have been beneficial to draw the NK and take Scum by surprise.

Based on the above, I don't think Scum would ALSO have a RB. We don't have that much strength in our roles as Town collectively. So..

IF T3 IS NOT ELIMINATED TODAY I BEG FOR readtea TO SHOOT HIM TONIGHT

Where he says "In hindsight I should not have claimed my BP. That would have been risky because of the Complex Vig thing, but it would have been beneficial to draw the NK and take Scum by surprise." This was when he knew I was actually BP but was claiming VT in order to draw night shot from scum. To me it's a completely unnecessary comment, and only serves as a breadcrumb from a traitor to scum about me being BP. This is what started making me suspicious in the first place.

[TheZenMan]

the only reason i'm not on A50 right now is because i think he's the traitor and i want to find scum

hmm i made the point earlier that there is little reason to believe Almost50 couldn't simply be group-scum as opposed to traitor. Group-scum claiming bulletproof to get 'off the hook' is a predictable play for Almost50 here.

I think it's way more likely that A50 is BP traitor. He claimed BP neighbor right away, which would just be his role minus the traitor part. He did this before even talking to me, so he didn't yet know I was a 1-shot BP neighbor.

Plus, I believe he tried to leave a breadcrumb for his scum partners that I was also BP when I had claimed VT and was trying to draw scum shot to me.

ok that's interesting! are you sure he claimed BP before I outted the BP traitor publically?

No he claimed BP after you had already outted the BP traitor. I meant that if he were BP traitor Neighbour, claiming BP neighbour is the closes town aligned equivalent. He did however claim BP before I told him I was also BP.

[TheZenMan]

did they claim bulletproof after the vig was revealed or before?

I claimed it AFTER. I mean people get pissed when I ask about things that has already been mentioned in the game, but the same people refuse to go back and read for themselves. (Not specifically STD. It's a general statement)

here's where I claimed:

i'm ambivalent about the claim. an outted traitor doesn't serve much purpose for mafia, so there isn't anything we particularly lose by giving redtea a night to prove the claim. gut is i don't buy it though

Townie to Townie.. the claim is very likely true. Don't tell anyone I said that though.

In fact, why not NOW:

I am a Town BP Neighbour. At first, I though being a Neighbour was to make me a Miller to a TA/PT Cop (as is the fad), but with that claim it makes more sense for me to be the Miller for the Complex Vig. I mean, without the Neighborhood I could just claim VT if redtea claims to have shot me. However, if I do get shot in this case; my Neighbour will out me as their Neighbour and thus a PR who should have been dead.

@Dwlee: happy now?? Now Scum won't try to shoot me on N1 (or any other night). THAT IS WHY I don't feel the need to out everything I know upon "someone's request".

People were pushing redtea and piling up on him. I said his claim was believable to me and some people didn't get the hint. I had to full claim to save redtea from being massacred on D1. Whether you like my play or not is up to you, but that's what happened and that's what I'd do every single time

At that point no one was after Redtea anymore, he had claimed and most people had already moved off him. You didn't have to full claim at all to save him, and you full claiming had no impact on his wagon. Plus you only waited 11 minutes between those 2 posts, that's hardly enough time for people to even see that first post let alone realise what you were trying to say.

Frankly, this is just a big misrep on what went down with your claim.

[TheZenMan]

wait
mods wouldnt put bp traitor and bp townie in the same neighborhood would they

This is exactly what I think has happened, easier for bp traitor to blend in with a bp townie imo.

[TheZenMan]

I've just had a thought. If redtea really is vig why wasn't he killed N1? Why let him live and instead kill fua who only soft claimed an unknown role? If we assume T3 is telling the truth about being role blocked then the logical conclusion must be that scum kill redtea. But that didn't happen.

Plus him wasting two nights on three seems very bad for town because it's essentially wasting two shots to prove he is vanilla.

[TheZenMan]

UNVOTE

This wagon is happening way too fast and some people haven't even commented it. I still highly suspect A50 is traitor but his last posts plus Redteas wanting to hammer him has put me off.

[TheZenMan]

I distrust people wanting to rush an elim. Redtea seemed way to eager to want rush to hammer A50. And also doing this despite, in his own words, still not having read anything.

[TheZenMan]

EBWOP: Everything*

[TheZenMan]

We can't afford even one mis elim anymore, so anyone that haven't claimed or have some more info town dosen't know now would be the time to come forward.

[TheZenMan]

I'm just gonna post my reads on people now, and on who I think the scumteam might be:

Reads:

Town:
TheZenMan
Hawaiian Pizza
Three

Null:
Jacket
House
Dwele

Scum:
T3
Save the Dragons

T3 is probably scum. He did an extremely bad forced fakeclaim, and with the revelation of Redtea it's not very likely that he is an investigative PR. Honestly see him as the best elim candidate. I already suspected before Redtea was killed that one of Redtea or T3 was fakeclaiming. Obv not RedTea so that leaves T3. He is probably gonna come back and say he investigated jacket again and claim he was roleblocked again.

Save the Dragon has been flip flopping the whole game. He has very weird reasonings, didn't want to elim A50 even when he thought he was the traitor and then ended up voting him anyway. He is definetly scum also. Also voted T3 then just unvoted him a few hours later with no explanation. I feel he has been coasting by because he says almost nothing of substance either.

[TheZenMan]

Also isn't Zen a confirmed liar? He claimed A50 was lying about stuff that was said in their hood PT. But A50 flipped green. What motive would A50 have to lie and make Zen look bad? Granted, A50 never denied lying, but I feel like it got brushed over when I was reading over what happened yesterday and it's possible he just never thought to address it.

I assume you are talking about the quote below. A50 himself said he misread that, so he did lie just not purposefully.

Wait what? I never said I was okay with a second shot on three, I said the complete opposite.

And I said I was fine with std shot but directly after I wrote I would rather have T3 shot and elim someone else D2.

True that. I misread. You wanted to lim someone else today and shoot T3. Still a weird proposition given T3 is almost confirmed Scum either way.

But let me entertain the idea: Who do you want to lim in T3's stead?

Also, now that A50 has been flipped 1-shot town that should be big proof that I am town. I claimed 1-shot bp to him first (he only claimed bp). You can go back and check that yourself, people actually thought A50 was scum because they were thinking he adopted my modifier to being bp. It's way too big of a coincidence that I claim a role first and he happens to also have it.

[TheZenMan]

Ok, that's true. It came up a few times but it looks like he just addressed it there. I can't say that's big proof that you're town though, all you did was claim 1-shot BP and we know the Traitor is exactly that. It would mean the set up puts two pseudo Millers in a hood and I just don't see the point of it.

If T3 is a mafia Traffic Analyst/Neighbor Finder, it could be to point the scum team in their direction, fire the bullet, and realize they hit their Traitor. The twist being they don't know which BP Neighbor is their Traitor and which is just town.

I don't know who is the final scum in this scenario but I'm going to be looking into vote counts.

We only know that there is a BP traitor here, not that he is a 1-shot BP traitor. Else Cool cookie would surely have specified that.

[TheZenMan]

zenman what makes three town

He seems like he is actively scum hunting, unlike for example you who I see as posting mostly fluff. I also like that he offered himself up as a target for vigshot (although think it was a waste of a shot). To me that speaks as townactions.

[TheZenMan]

t3/dwlee is such a good pair and dwlee's votes on t3 feel like busses omfg im either extremely smart or super dumb

let's go

T3 is a possibility. Claiming investigative as scum weirds me out, though. If he's scum, he's not playing the long game.

dwlee, I'm not seeing. Lend me your eyeballs and show me what you see.

He was forced to claim and claiming investigative might have been him trying to claim something that's useful for town.

[TheZenMan]

My tinfoil is that there will be no NK tonight if Zen is town because scum can't afford to go into endgame with a townie they can't kill.

This would be true if everyone realised I was town, but not everyone do.

[TheZenMan]

lol osetr getting people to dislike him, classic

gtg

remember: hawaiian pizza, a cool cookie, and red tea.
one of us do not quite fit and it's obviously the red tea

This might also be a crumb cause it's saying one of cookie/redtea/HP is different for some reason

This is really reaching, since we know both red tea and cool cokkie are town. And he said it was red tea. I guess scum Jacket could be signalling that he thinks red tea is the traitor.

[TheZenMan]

VOTE: No Elimination

I think this is the best choice for us actually, a miselim here means we lose.

[TheZenMan]

Crumbs typically are reaching a little bit

But the point is who is saying one is different + saying "I'm gay (mafia)" in addition to it. I don't think I can convince you to vote yourself or your buddy though

Yeah but if anything people would think that Redtea is scum here. I was actually thinking of him as prime elim for D3 before he got killed.

Also, why exactly do you think I'm scum? It seems it's basically just by trying to shoehorn me in along with Jacket and HP. And how do you explain me knowing A50 modifier and having the same modifier as him without knowing it?

[TheZenMan]

My tinfoil is that there will be no NK tonight if Zen is town because scum can't afford to go into endgame with a townie they can't kill.

This would be true if everyone realised I was town, but not everyone do.

I mean, it's just common knowledge that scum can't afford to leave a 1-shot bp intact and have any hope of surviving long-term because they never know when that bp might just up and make themselves impossible to be eliminated.

Ngl, I'd

prefer

they do that if you're town instead of the alternative.

I would prefer being shot too, that's why I claimed town initially so I could tank a shot from scum.

[TheZenMan]

Setup

Mafia Mailman
Mafia Combined Rolecop Voyeur
Mafia Bulletproof Ascetic
Town Novice Traffic Analyst
Town One-shot Cop
Town Simple Jailkeeper Neighbor
Town Neighbor
Town Compulsive JOAT (Neighborize, Complex Rolecop, Lazy Roleblock)
Vanilla Townie
Vanilla Townie
Vanilla Townie
Vanilla Townie
Vanilla Townie

I just ran this setup. I think this is a balanced game. Here if all 5 pr claims are town we have an informed mailman, two 1-shot bp neighbors, a complex vigilante, and an odd-night invest even-night useless.

Depending on scum power I think this is pretty balanced. Scum seem to have a roleblocker to deal with investigative claims, and a vigilante is functionally a conftown here. So why would this not be balanced compared to the game I ran, depending on how much power scum gets.

Wasn't cool cookie informed mailman town? Did you miswrite that?

[TheZenMan]

Honestly don't lim me solely based on mechanics. It's easily possible that 2 neighbours have the exact same role. It actually makes more sense given that it's probably mind games from the mods.

[TheZenMan]

In the words of T3, please don't lime me.

[TheZenMan]

T3 still hasn't said why he was withholding N1 info. He withheld being roleblocked and messaged by mailman for no reason. Why exactly was that?

[TheZenMan]

In the words of T3, please don't lime me.

Who would you lim instead?

Save the dragon is the best choice IMO. Has mostly flip flopped and basically been coasting by because he never says anything of substance. Refer you to my post #1742.

viewtopic.php?p=13057317#p13057317

[TheZenMan]

T3 still hasn't said why he was withholding N1 info. He withheld being roleblocked and messaged by mailman for no reason. Why exactly was that?

Not sure what you’re getting at here. The mailman flipped town. Iirc T3 said no result or am I mixing stuff up?

He got roleblocked (or so he claims) N1, but then he choose to withhold that information for some reason. Not sure why he would want to even crumb that to cookie, it's way more beneficial for town to know there is a roleblocker rather than try to crumb it to cookie.

[TheZenMan]

T3 still hasn't said why he was withholding N1 info. He withheld being roleblocked and messaged by mailman for no reason. Why exactly was that?

i literally did


so i wanted to crumb my result to cookie
so that scum could live in fear of my result and i wouldn't have to out it

So, you want to make scum live in fear of your results, despite them having roleblocked you? What would they fear from that?

And what would scum fearing your result do to help town? Scum would just kill you N2, and we would lose an investigative role and wouldn't even know the result of N1.

[TheZenMan]

I think Zen is just scum here. The more I look over things the more it looks like Zen is pushing T3 for being mechanically bad vs a scumread. I don’t think if T3 is scum that he would have done that.

I also don’t like how when I asked who the top scumread was he dropped a single mention of StD then went back to picking on T3

*Fake vote T3*

Unofficial fake vote count
Zen (1) — Math

It takes 3 to hammer to force them to drop a vote in 24 hours.

You asked about T3 and I answered. Why ask then shoehorn me into "picking on T3"? I made my reasons clear D3 and referred you to my post about it.

Pushing someone who plays bad mechanically = scummy?

Also why fake vote me? Vote for me if you think I'm scum, why would you be afraid of the hammer then?

[TheZenMan]

I already said this before but prob would vote std. I also scumread T3 and lately also thinking Hawaiian pizza might be scum. He has been coasting by for so long and getting away with not contributing at all and just popping in and out jumping on whatever bandwagon.

[TheZenMan]

Also, Math you do realise that when I flip town we lose right? So you aren't gonna get any info from that. Idk, was confused when you wrote all scenarios and you wrote about the info you could gain from my voting.

[TheZenMan]

At the very least People here should take one hard look at both std and Hawaiian before they vote me.

[TheZenMan]

have to go now, but zen u had me as town at SoD if im not mistaken

mind explaining ur read change?

Yeah I townread you because you were pretty open about being away for so long and suprised people didn't push you, which I townread. However recently have had some posts of yours that made me think you are scum. For example this post below:

Well at least one of you and pizza is scum pushing zen right now but probably not both

And so I think STD makes sense as scum here

and i do not like this post, "there has to be a scum in the people pushing zen"
and the whole associations thing you're doing
perhaps i'm biased, but like
i'm struggling to be convinced you're town with all this

This put up some red flags in my mind. I think it's fairly reasonable to assume that if there are 3 people pushing me one of them is scum, at the very least is probably. Jumping on Dwele for saying that was just needlessly aggressive and defensive.

Also, you say you have a list of votes explained but you never posted it. You said the same thing before. Seems just shady to keep alluding to it but never posting it.

[TheZenMan]

I already said this before but prob would vote std. I also scumread T3 and lately also thinking Hawaiian pizza might be scum. He has been coasting by for so long and getting away with not contributing at all and just popping in and out jumping on whatever bandwagon.

You're supposed to be placing a vote now, according to Math.

Not sure about the system math has brought in, just seems very arbitrary. But anyway here is my vote. Also, I know math had a deadline but I think that since we can't afford even one miselim I suggest we take our time and not rush into a hammer.

VOTE: Save the Dragons

[TheZenMan]

UNVOTE

Just realised that there are 3 scum left so they could easily flashhamer with just one town vote. So actually fake voting is probably best.

Fake vote STD

[TheZenMan]

Even more important with 2 votes, since that makes a group mafia even more likely.

[TheZenMan]

I already said this before but prob would vote std. I also scumread T3 and lately also thinking Hawaiian pizza might be scum. He has been coasting by for so long and getting away with not contributing at all and just popping in and out jumping on whatever bandwagon.

You're supposed to be placing a vote now, according to Math.

Not sure about the system math has brought in, just seems very arbitrary. But anyway here is my vote. Also, I know math had a deadline but I think that since we can't afford even one miselim I suggest we take our time and not rush into a hammer.

VOTE: Save the Dragons

This post is as useless as your supposed pr role has been to town.

[TheZenMan]

???
What is the problem? Do you not agree that scum could potentielly flash hammer the first town that has one townie vote?

[TheZenMan]

VOTE: Save the Dragons
It was just a thought about being avoiding a flash miselim but whatever.

[TheZenMan]

Pretty sure that scum would just drop 3 votes on me as soon as even one townie voted me.

[TheZenMan]

Realistically, from your POV, if you and STD are t/t, then any team that includes 2 of Math/T3/me could have hammered and ended the game.

True, but only if STD is town. Maybe the fact that he wasn't flashammered speaks to him being scum?

[TheZenMan]

How many of your are newbies? Lemme just ask that. Because this page feels like very newbie queue ish.

This is actually my first game on this site, but played mafia on a different forum about 2 years ago. The biggest difference was that cycle lengths were set, they didn't end early if someone got hammered. Also you could talk during the night as well.

[TheZenMan]

I'm here on mobile. Catching up now.

So, you have been lurking but decide to pop in just 1 hour before you are replaced? A little bit too coincidental imo.

[TheZenMan]

GG

[TheZenMan]

I feel like the neighbourhood could have been the best chance for town to win. That's on me for having this crazy theory that A50 was trying to crumb as traitor. We both could have been good red herrings for scum trying to find their traitor.

[TheZenMan]

Where is the scumthread?

Also, can scumteam or T3 show where T3 crumbed he was traitor to you?