Mini Normal 2238 | Game Over

[Andresvmb]

You guys post too damn much.

I’m Town. I’ll catch up when I can, but probably tonight.

[Andresvmb]

I have to say - I’m a little astounded as to how bad the first 9 pages read (I didn’t stop to analyze the players but I wanted to get a feel for how the game is progressing).

Nero pushing a player in MathBlade with a PR crumb and subsequent claim aren’t necessarily coming from Scum. And both Mathblade and House just read constantly pissed off to me. I’m not here trying to put my foot down and say that I strongly TR Nero or anything, but he does seems invested and could have just been wrong. The level of animosity is too much. The game just started. No one I’ve seen has fully formed accurate reads this early - calling other players bad is a way too aggressive. I don’t hunt for crumbs for example (not as Town).

Anyway, this is probably one of those games where I’ll voice my opinion, but I’m not going to lead anyone anywhere - there’s clearly stronger personalities than me. I’m not all that interested in getting involved in a pissing contest.

I guess I’ll assume {DGB, Mathblade} are Town for now.

[Andresvmb]

Am I the only one that finds it utterly ridiculous that these 3 think scum would shoot at claimed hoodies/masons?

Masons always get shot in the absence of another PR claim or strong player. Neighbors yeah no.

[Andresvmb]

Hardclaiming Mason could have drawn a counterclaim, and not just from Masons.

Maybe but since this is a mini and we're neighbors, I assumed a low probability of masons.

Weren’t you in that 3-Mason game? Maybe not. This is a bad assumption anyway.

[Andresvmb]

The more I think about it, the more I want to

VOTE: Nero

for rightfully pointing out that DGB looked sus for scumreading him when they both agree that MB is scum and that he's actively pursuing a MB wagon, yet maintaining that MathBlade is scummier than DGB when directly questioned.

From his perspective, DGB *should* be scummier for pushing him when he's voting and pushing a wagon on a shared scumread.

Nero red flip suggests the hood is clean.

Can’t say I love this vote.

[Andresvmb]

VOTE: Gamma

I’ll be back later.

[Andresvmb]

Apologies - I am VLA until tonight.

[Andresvmb]

Alright let’s see what’s happened since I’ve been away.

[Andresvmb]

VOTE: Nero Cain

[Andresvmb]

Just because I don’t play on command (and I’ve been busy IRL - sorry), doesn’t make me Scum. You should know this by now.

[Andresvmb]

I will catch up - I got distracted while reading and I’ve had stuff come up.

[Andresvmb]

Also there’s 4 days left. I don’t always feel like I have to be here every day nitpicking everything. I’ll give you my view of the game not before long.

[Andresvmb]

Ugh I have to consolidate and pick one.

VOTE: Almost50

I am torn by this but I think this makes the most sense then if A50 flips town

I learn a lot

and if scum I learn a lot whereas with the Wake wagon he’s had like no interactions.

Pedit: lmao

Maybe we will see

Sorry, but you actually

never learn

. We've been playing with each other for what? Six years? And you still suck at reading me.

A50 is town.

Going back to voting real scum.

VOTE: Andres

It’s funny to me how we always somehow end up here, and you are always wrong.

[Andresvmb]

@House, how many games have you, Titus, and Nero all played together you think?

[Andresvmb]

I have some time tonight - I’ll provide some more real thoughts when I’m done reading. Nero can then also stop complaining about me being a lurksack. Which btw, isn’t really true. I have fallen behind in games before because I just got busy IRL, but since I have yet to rand Scum in this forum at all (16 games in a row now, not including this one), he knows (i) it doesn’t mean anything, and (ii) that when I actually read and contribute, I read carefully even when I make mistakes. Which is why I’m suspicious of them trying to push me a bit quietly when I’m not truly here.

[Andresvmb]

@House, how many games have you, Titus, and Nero all played together you think?

Titus and I?

Several.

Me and Nero? Like, one that I am aware of, that was years ago.

I ask because you made an argument against Nero (I skimmed, so give me some rope here), where you were bashing Nero about them SR’ing you despite Titus TR’ing you, but if you all haven’t played multiple games together, then your argument I would argue seems in bad faith and irrelevant (it would be based on at best anecdotal evidence anyway). Does that make sense?

[Andresvmb]

I guess what I’m saying is - if you had argued that Titus has a good handle on your meta, and thus Nero’s SR is bad or irrelevant because Titus can figure you out better than anyone else, I think that would make sense. Maybe I care a bit too much about how the argument was structured, but I would think that would be an important distinction to make. Anyway, it doesn’t matter all that much I don’t think, but I did want to at least get that out.

I don’t really know where I stand with you two anyway, but I’ll give that unfiltered opinion first, and then I’ll try and see whether it says anything about your respective alignments.

[Andresvmb]

If this is the first time I’m executed D1 as Town because people have no chill, so be it. I am in the middle of reading but if I’m just wasting my time please let me know now and I can stop.

[Andresvmb]

…I don’t see anyone posting content as a waste of time?

I have had decent reads D1 in other games, but I also know I can more strongly impact the game later. And besides, around these parts, reads from most players that are executed or NK’ed are usually discarded. What I’ve found is that most people just don’t read carefully. So no, I’m not going to read and analyze ~2,000 posts just to get executed and ignored afterwards. I’m still reading and the wagon (like so many others in this game) has already moved elsewhere, so I intend to keep going. I just don’t like to skim, and I don’t like to settle on votes or views of the game if I’m totally uninformed. So it becomes harder for me to contribute when I fall behind.

You can read any game of mine at all to confirm I’m not bullshitting.

[Andresvmb]

Why the hell is House the leading wagon?!

[Andresvmb]

I don’t have to read past Page 20 to know that’s a bad idea.

[Andresvmb]

Anyone wanna flashwagon Ythan because Gamma was scum?

This is most certainly wrong.

[Andresvmb]

@A50 I’ll finish reading at some point but you’re obvTown and I’m actually cleared funny enough so I’ll just sheep you until I can finish my catch up.

[Andresvmb]

VOTE: A50

A50 strikes me as the old school type that needs some incentive to drop trou.

This is a pretty horrendous vote.

[Andresvmb]

I don’t know, being a simpleton, I would simply scavenge around for whoever was looking for alternative wagons at the end of D1 that wasn’t all out in front making themselves look like an ass. Kyouko springs to mind. I would say House probably wouldn’t be as obvious as Scum, but there’s some bold players out there.

I’ll buy DGB’s ATE and say they’re Town. If you’re caught mechanically, I don’t know that you resort to this sort of nonsense. It seems almost too anti-competitive.

[Andresvmb]

Look I’ve mostly skimmed, read the first half of D1, and all of what’s been posted today. I have a lot of blanks.

[Andresvmb]

A50 never buries their PR buddy like that, so they’re cleared in my mind. Like hard. And I think Wake was throwing A50 and me as options while voting me hard throughout, so this isn’t really that hard. I’m guessing A50 was probably shot because I would have shot there myself.

[Andresvmb]

The Scum are also hard demotivated right now I would imagine, having a reasonable strong PR on their side dead and their NK blocked (no reasonable Team doesn’t shoot there, and I would have quit in disgust if we had tried to No Kill for WIFOM down a member D1).

[Andresvmb]

Anyone wanna flashwagon Ythan because Gamma was scum?

Like I specifically recall this sort of stuff that I felt was wrong.

[Andresvmb]

My scumdar is in the crapper I might as well vote for a townread. I don't have to worry about being scumread for it because I'm always scumread.

VOTE: Wake88

This also feels like a key vote - not sure why this is being ignored.

[Andresvmb]

I feel like mechanically Math and House will sort themselves out. There's no way this is theatre so I'mma big dip on this
VOTE: Wake
Still down for Titus, Ythan, A50, but Wake actually has a wagon. Less down for A50 because of the Watcher softs. Now that we have 2 claims out I think it's good to voice this now rather than waiting until toMorrow which was originally what I'd planned. I think making sure that town!Math and town!House and the scumteam aware of the softs is good now because if all 3 are town it's going to make it difficult for scum to choose correctly.

Didn't anybody teach you that highlighting PR crumbs was bad??

VOTE: Kyo

Flash wagon anyone?

And oh look who is proposing an alternative after Wake becomes the leading wagon?

[Andresvmb]

I don’t know. This is what I would spend some time doing. The Scum could bus a PR in their Team if they need to distance, but who doesn’t at the very least try and avert that situation at first? It’s what I would be looking around for.

[Andresvmb]

I'm not all that sure that Wake is scum. like yeah him not catching up past Sunday is sorta bad but the circumstances seem reasonable.

Nero is clearly not out of the woods, and them trying to bury DGB today seemed kind of off.

[Andresvmb]

Are you still focused on an Andre lynch or no?

Yea

And at some point purge this with fire.

[Andresvmb]

hot take

Save for Wake himself his wagon was all town and the remaining scum is in

Ythan
Kerset
DrippingGoofball
Andresvmb
House
Cat Scratch Fever

Cool. I'd say Andres is clear because of how hard Scum pushed him all over D1. (NOT saying EVERYONE who pushed him is Scum).
CSF is also likely Town because of 1456 (DGB pointed that out too).
Kerset "may be" Town for 1784. Depending on House's alignment this could be a stronger read.

That leaves me with House, DGB & Ythan, but I'm willing to listen still.

Btw A50, Nero’s “POE” is extremely self-serving when their vote came WAY late and only after it was obvious you had strong reasons to push for Wake and they looked as good as dead.

[Andresvmb]

hot take

Save for Wake himself his wagon was all town and the remaining scum is in

Ythan
Kerset
DrippingGoofball
Andresvmb
House
Cat Scratch Fever

Cool. I'd say Andres is clear because of how hard Scum pushed him all over D1. (NOT saying EVERYONE who pushed him is Scum).
CSF is also likely Town because of 1456 (DGB pointed that out too).
Kerset "may be" Town for 1784. Depending on House's alignment this could be a stronger read.

That leaves me with House, DGB & Ythan, but I'm willing to listen still.

Btw A50, Nero’s “POE” is extremely self-serving when their vote came WAY late and only after it was obvious you had strong reasons to push for Wake and they looked as good as dead.

[Andresvmb]

@Mod can you delete one of the posts above? I hate double-posting.

[Andresvmb]

Anyway I’ll be back tonight after I’m done actually catching up.

[Andresvmb]

VOTE: Kerset

[Andresvmb]

@House, Math just lost a game due to, partially, his partner not killing anyone. He doesn't no kill here.

Even Math agrees DGB's summary was accuraye. He's just assuming incorrectly that Math is scum for it.

He does have an agenda to be conftown but his accuracy is likely correct unless DGB flips scum.

UNVOTE:

Before I go...

VOTE: Andresvmb

VOTE: Andresvmb

Everyone else is heroing and I can’t stop that from happening

DGB is doing good amount of AtE.

DGB scumreads me despite literally not being able to if town.

So like you tell me Titus, who’s really the “heroing” here?

You. We went over this repeatedly.

Your mechanics aren't sound.

Your vocal, inaccurate push that drowns the thread is getting you scumread.

If everyone else is wrong in your opinion, have a guilty or step back and listen.

I hear humankind is a fun game.

So. Much. This.

I’m curious - how bad at Mafia do you have to be to think that I’m a reasonable vote today?

[Andresvmb]

Thanks for the recipies.

Let's lim Andres.

You keep calling me a lurker - as if you didn’t fall behind in games yourself.

So you think my Partner Wake wanted to get me executed desperately while I was having trouble catching up in the game because?

[Andresvmb]

Bullshit - you’re not this bad at Mafia. I am a terrible choice regardless of whether you dislike me complaining about people’s bad reads of my slot.

[Andresvmb]

You’re basically pretending that Wake first started pushing me after they voted me, which is quite obviously untrue. And you’re no so lazy not to go back and check just the very many times that Wake suggested I should get executed.

[Andresvmb]

I can’t put out detailed content yet because I haven’t finished reading. That’s it. You can either accept the explanation or continue bashing me for it. It’s not going to change my alignment. My suggestions earlier in the day haven’t changed - you all (mainly House and Mathblade really) just talk too much about irrelevant stuff and you crowd out other opinions.

[Andresvmb]

How is Wake’s behavior bussing? I mean seriously, again, ridiculous.

Scum don’t just constantly try and get wagons against their buddies started unless they don’t have a choice or there’s a real strategic element to it. Are you suggesting A50 (obvTown) and I were the only possibilities that Wake could think of for an alternative to their slot? The two players that if I recall correctly Nero was most loudly complaining weren’t posting much?

C’mon now you can do better.

[Andresvmb]

You’re basically pretending that Wake first started pushing me after they voted me, which is quite obviously untrue. And you’re no so lazy not to go back and check just the very many times that Wake suggested I should get executed.

Not denying he did.

He had a FoS buddy, vote town thing going on.

Rather than whine, tell me who is scum. There's always a chance I am wrong yet you're not going to convince me by Wake's ISO.

I finished Situation Room where the whole scumteam was FoSed universally, leaving no choice not to bus. Bussing happens. So does distancing.

Also, I was the vote. If anything, I would be the Town, and A50 would be the buddy. But that doesn’t fit because A50 really buried Wake at the end there didn’t they?

[Andresvmb]

You know why some players came into today assuming I was just Town right? Because they’re not insane. Instead, they’re dealing in the most likely. Which is that Scum was trying to find a Town player that wasn’t super active and wasn’t going to fight back too much and could get executed instead of them. But no, that seems too far fetched to you?

[Andresvmb]

Who came in assuming you were town?

Are you stating A50 is scum?

Constantly insulting my "bad" or "insane" play is not going to change my mind.

And you’re saying I’m the one who hasn’t read? If I find more than one player doing so, will you drop this nonsense?

[Andresvmb]

Take a look at 2377, 2466, and 2633. Different posters arriving at the same conclusion in different ways without directly talking to eh other, and I’m going to guess with all of them having different progressions around my slot D1. They can’t all be Scum with me, obviously, so you know there’s a Towny thought process in there somewhere. Why do you think that happened?

[Andresvmb]

^each other*

[Andresvmb]

Say you think my perspective is totally worthless because I don’t have much in the form of content and you would never believe stuff I say about my own slot. You’re still faced with the rather tall burden of fighting all of the players that have (correctly) articulated why I’m Town. For someone who clearly pays attention to voting patterns, the fact that you haven’t paid more attention to DGB’s argument for instance is baffling to me - someone you are saying you wouldn’t vote.

[Andresvmb]

@Math you’ll notice my vote has been on Kerset for a while. The slot can’t possibly be left alive for that much longer this game and they probably know that too.

[Andresvmb]

I just think they’re activity around end of day 1 is indicative of possible Scum. I wanted to read the end of D1 carefully (I haven’t had the chance yet) because clearly after the Claims and when Wake is gathering momentum, that’s when you should expect at least 1 Scum to make themselves obvious. Either by not posting, by committing hard to the execution of Wake (a bus, say like what Nero did), or by trying to suggest alternatives. Kerset falls into the last category. And they wanted me dead (just like Wake) - I highlighted the post already.

[Andresvmb]

Take a look at 2377, 2466, and 2633. Different posters arriving at the same conclusion in different ways without directly talking to eh other, and I’m going to guess with all of them having different progressions around my slot D1. They can’t all be Scum with me, obviously, so you know there’s a Towny thought process in there somewhere. Why do you think that happened?

^each other*

Let's break these down one at a time.

I don't get DGB's assertion in 1.30. Wake voting you when he was the counterwagon doesn't make you townie at all.

A50 is arguing that you're town because of how hard Wake pushed you. Based on the timing of your vote, I feel like it's distancing.

DotW mentioned you might be a goon or weaker slot Wake was distancing from. That's my theory.

Good to know you're at 2633. Who are your current reads and tell us where you are please?

@Titus you seem to be assuming that the collective read of multiple players in the Town (some of which theoretically could be my Partners I guess) is wrong because “distancing”? If there had been a plan to distance, where’s my Scum Read of Wake? You know distancing involves both parties trying to make it unlikely that they’ll be paired together right? I wasn’t inactive enough that I couldn’t have manufactured a Scum Lean of Wake. So why didn’t I? Particularly since you know I posted not too far before the end of the day.

[Andresvmb]

I have a vote on Kerset and think the slot is Scum. I don’t have a full solve yet. I have a few strong TL’s, which I’ve already named.

[Andresvmb]

Well Titus if you don’t want to accept logic then sit on an island and look foolish. I was trying to help but if you won’t help yourself then by all means.

[Andresvmb]

Oh look, I decided to argue in favor of my own survival so that has to be AtE. You guys call everything that carries a hint of emotion or frustration AtE. I’m not a robot. And it’s spectacularly unlikely to be indicative of my Scum play since this accusation has been levied against me I don’t know how many times around here and I’ve been nothing but Town. It’s incredible some folks here think that it really is a consistent indicator of Scum.

[Andresvmb]

Also, I don’t think I’ve said I think DotW is Town. They could be Scum - I don’t know. Their read is a mirror image of A50 for example, which maybe is convenient. But are you saying A50 is Scum? Or DGB?

[Andresvmb]

VOTE: Titus

[Andresvmb]

VOTE: Titus

Lolno.

I don’t recall asking for your opinion.

[Andresvmb]

Mathblade maybe you’re not reading all that much, but Ythan is going to flip Town, and Titus’ push there is Scummy as all shit. It would help if you stopped trying to listen to Scum.

[Andresvmb]

You cannot claim to be conf town without calling A50 conf town.

Sure I can.

It’s possible A50 scum goon who tried to kill.

It’s not probable but possible.

A50 is literally never Scum. It’s almost like you’re intentionally trying to be bad.

[Andresvmb]

Why are there so many votes on Ythan? Can somebody catch me up quick? @A50 what the hell are you doing?

[Andresvmb]

Here’s why I’m saying it - we need to stop indulging shit takes. There’s some really bad ones in this game. It just pollutes the thread and makes this game somewhat unreadable.

[Andresvmb]

It’s WAY to early to try and resolve PR claims by arguing there’s too many of them instead of focusing on Scummy behavior. Once we actually get to a point where it’s obvious some claims don’t fit, we can really start to focus on the mechanics. And I can help with that if I’m still around. What I’m not understanding is why Titus isn’t drawing more scrutiny. Who in their right mind wants a Cop executed now that hasn’t claim a restriction as Town? Can you answer that?

[Andresvmb]

^hasn’t claimed*

[Andresvmb]

Like we’re on Day 2 with a Scum flipped. Has anyone really spent time reading through associations yet? Because they definitely point away from Ythan for instance. Do you want an example? Read the exchange around 1103, and some posts thereafter, and tell me that reads like SvS.

[Andresvmb]

This is the problem with overactive posters - it obscures really subtle exchanges or important moments because there’s so much garbage. You guys have been going on and on about how to sort through the mechanics and indulging House’s temper tantrum or earlier in the game calling Nero toxic and just random garbage like that.

[Andresvmb]

I’m not blaming you specifically - but this game is too fucking long for 2 days and a Mini. It’s driving some real apathy on my part.

[Andresvmb]

Anyway I’m going to spend several more hours trying to sift through the nonsense and actually make a better push. But I would be mighty skeptical of Titus trying to eliminate a claimed Cop. That’s a claim that’ll sort itself out if I’ve ever seen one. It isn’t even gated which could easily indicate Scum which maybe I would believe. And it’s backed up by a crumb and a check on a player that makes sense. For fucks sake some of you should wake up.

[Andresvmb]

I’m not blaming you specifically - but this game is too fucking long for 2 days and a Mini. It’s driving some real apathy on my part.

Okay…So let’s assume Titus is scum here with House and with Kerset my fave theory.

What can I do differently?

I don’t think House is Scum. Most of the really obnoxious players never are. Scum love to hide behind them. I had a game with a player that was posting way too much to be Scum and I sort of knew it but they were screaming at everything that moved and rubbing everyone the wrong way. They made themselves impossible to defend. And Scum made them the last mis-execution despite me screaming not to do it.

I’m not saying House is either irrational or bad btw. But I’m referencing the underlying behavior. Making yourself really hard to like in a game is an awful idea as Scum. It gets you executed far more often than not. People just don’t feel sympathy for you and if anyone makes a convincing sounding case you’re more often than not dead.

[Andresvmb]

And I say most because I can think of two examples of players that love to play up the toxicity when they’re Scum, using this knowledge to their advantage. I won’t name them for obvious reasons.

[Andresvmb]

I haven’t read everything, so I am not sure how I read House yet. They could be Scum doing the same thing as Titus. But just think strategically - how silly is that? You think the rest of the Scum Team that’s alive is doing the exact same thing? What if Ythan is Town and flips Cop. Which of course the Scum would know is the case btw - terrible idea to fake claim in this way as Town with a check and all that. They’re both going to look horrendous. Would you do it? I know I wouldn’t.

[Andresvmb]

Placing yourself permanently in the POE by making a crappy mechanical argument that my buddy is also making seems absurd to me.

[Andresvmb]

Yes I’m assuming 3 Scum. But no, the Team left isn’t behaving loudly, pushing a potential Cop, making themselves the suspects the rest of the game. It would be more believable if you argued that Ythan and Titus are Scum and hard distancing. Think about how much more powerful that is, and effective long-term.

[Andresvmb]

Which is why I’m trying to find associations with Wake. One of the two teammates at the very least interacted in a funny way with Wake at some point. I’m certain of it. We should be looking for

that

.

[Andresvmb]

what if that means titus and House isn't a thing? And I do think "scum wouldn't do that" is a valid form of scum play. My q is is asking why you consider 1 to be scummy for it but not the other or do you think that House is scummy if Titus is town?

I think if Titus flips Town, House should be hard scrutinized, yes. I do really think that they’re not both Scum - I think that’s poor strategic gameplay and most Scum have a sense for that. It’s natural to not want to give the entire Team away unless it’s absolutely necessary for their survival. And here it isn’t - not entirely. Not with a claimed PR that’s going rogue and a limitation on the claimed JK so that they can’t defend PRs.

[Andresvmb]

and why can't that be House? dude made some silly request asking Wake to read part of his ISO.

I read that exchange - it just didn’t come across as SvS to me.

[Andresvmb]

I’m not saying Ythan / Titus is the Team. I don’t think Ythan is Scum at all. But that would be more persuasive to me as an argument than Titus / House are both pushing the Town Cop who has crumbed their check and revealed it later. Just seems plainly stupid. If they succeed, the next execution is literally between the two and they know it.

[Andresvmb]

Vote Count 1.29

Wake88 (4)

- House, Titus, Almost50, MathBlade

House (3)

- Dragon of the West, Nero Cain, ssbm_Kyouko

Almost50 (2)

- Wake88, DrippingGoofball

MathBlade (1)

- Ythan

Nero Cain (1)

- Andresvmb

Andresvmb (1)

- Kerset

Kerset (1)

- Cat Scratch Fever

Not voting (0)

:

It takes

7

votes to eliminate.

Mod Notes:

House, Titus, and Math are VLA through the 20th of September.

Deadline

: (expired on 2021-09-23 17:06:41)

Vote Count 1.30

Andresvmb (4)

- Kerset, House, DrippingGoofball, Wake88

Wake88 (3)

- Titus, Almost50, MathBlade

House (3)

- Dragon of the West, Nero Cain, ssbm_Kyouko

MathBlade (1)

- Ythan

Nero Cain (1)

- Andresvmb

Kerset (1)

- Cat Scratch Fever

Not voting (0)

:

It takes

7

votes to eliminate.

Mod Notes:

Deadline

: (expired on 2021-09-23 17:06:41)

Assuming you’re town and this isn’t an SvS wagon then our answer is probably here.

House is probably scum abandoning the bus and why your wagon started would be a good question.

Kinda points back to my Kerset / House PoE.

If you’re both scum probably a sideliner

I absolutely think Kerset needs to get nuked this game. I wouldn’t complain about that. I just want to read slowly so I can really be a bit more confident we aren’t going to flip Town with poor reads for example.

[Andresvmb]

Wake, House and I aren’t all the Team yeah? I mean maybe if we were all bad maybe that’s what you think. But Scum doesn’t move away from their buddy to another buddy who is building up as a wagon and also Scum. That would REALLY be idiotic.

[Andresvmb]

if he had a choice between a pr buddy and a goon buddy

And not one of the very many other Town players in the game? C’mon man this is not smart.

[Andresvmb]

Nero, I didn't legit FoS you yet. Why did you change your vote?

(It's a joking tone but the question is serious.)

We're likely looking at DotW, Kyouko and Wake.

I don’t think so on wake.
Kyouko maybe but she’d have a plan swapping from DGB to you so if she is one of the two of you would be scum with her.

DoTW is a good compromise same with A50

Math I’m not going to lie - you’ve had some terrible reads in hindsight.

[Andresvmb]

I have had one wrong read in Wake.

Most of my time was spent surviving and just trying not to have people be antitown people and open my crumbs every where. So I was angry and not thinking clearly. My read was wrong but I helped secure the elim.

It’s a huge error though.

Town accuses other Town and gets it wrong all the time. Somewhat less common but also happens quite a bit is that Town hard defends Scum consistently. It’s quite indicative of Scum though to wrongly defend a Scum player (particularly early, and a PR) and then turn on them when momentum is gathering against them. I know you know this. It’s really hard to keep a straight face and later look like a complete fool while hard defending your Partners, or hard charging against a Town player as Scum. Too much scrutiny and all the rest. But turning against a slot as they’re getting executed isn’t a good look.

I don’t have the context - I need to keep reading. But I just wanted to point that out.

[Andresvmb]

I think meta is relevant. It helps me read players. But I have to be in the games - like I have to feel the posts and the emotion and all that. I have learned from trying to read Noraa through meta that I’m just not good at it. I’m much better at thinking within the confines of a game and then using my lived past experiences to fill in some of the gaps.

[Andresvmb]

Good luck figuring that out. I play different and wild all the time.

In general that makes it more difficult to Scumread you, but also Townread you.

Not a huge fan of Wakes's entrance. Like this is just saying something to say nothing

DotW, Kyouko, and Ythan are Town. I don’t know I’m that confident in these reads, I’ve had some weak spots, but I like those slots for Town almost always.

Since Ythan has supposedly checked Nero Cain, let’s assume Nero is Town. I’m going to have to re-read A50 just to make sure it’s not a well executed bus, but it just didn’t seem like it to me at the time. And I’ll take a leap and say DGB and CSF are Town for now (DGB I have explained in part, but I’m not seeing it, and CSF is an educated guess). That leaves… {Titus, Kerset, Mathblade, House} as my POE.

[Andresvmb]

I don’t explain all my reads because I don’t have to. It’s a summary basically for my own benefit. Most reasons for reads tend to be bad - I just go with my feeling based on what I’m seeing on the page.

Some of DotW’s shading of Wake, like the post I quoted, is too subtle for it to be SvS in my view. Kyouko has well thought out views, even when wrong sometimes. I’ve liked their nuance and confidence, and can’t seem to find them Scum.

[Andresvmb]

Hey I could be all wrong. Maybe my view of the game is upside down. It’s happened. It’s Day 2.

[Andresvmb]

UNVOTE:

[Andresvmb]

I would argue that {Titus, Ythan} is almost certainly a 1v1 that we will probably have to sort through at some point. Executing Titus right now is not a good idea.

[Andresvmb]

Sorry Titus - for what it’s worth, I believe your claim.

[Andresvmb]

Sigh, back to reading I guess.

[Andresvmb]

On page 9.

Two things:

1) I can't read Titus.

2) Mathblade, could you stop being coy?

You guys have each other in your signatures, aren't you friends? Weird energy in here tonight.

Why even post if you're not gonna say anything?

Wake has said nothing of substance up until this point. He's literally just "argued" with House for a few pages and then made random statements that don't have any really bearing on the game

The interesting thing about the context of these statements is that they’re coming out when DotW is near execution, which could be distancing in a way though risky if they are too convincing. The vote ending on House is an interesting clue as well.

[Andresvmb]

Okay Titus so basically, you’ve narrowed the game so that Math is wrong, and the solution here is {Ythan, Kyouko} yeah?

[Andresvmb]

Okay Titus so basically, you’ve narrowed the game so that Math is wrong, and the solution here is {Ythan, Kyouko} yeah?

I was basically taking Kyouko’s side and SR’ing you (Kyouko went to great lengths to highlight the posts where you were shading them, so I would absolutely argue you two are not SvS). But I can see how I have that one wrong.

[Andresvmb]

So Kerset is just… playing poorly? What’s the rationale there?

[Andresvmb]

Doesn’t help our collective odds of making the right decision, but I’m a VT.

[Andresvmb]

I can’t deal with the amount of posting in this game.

[Andresvmb]

I can’t deal with the amount of posting in this game.

Okay.

What's your claim, again?

I don’t have an absurd amount of posts - you can ISO me and find it.

[Andresvmb]

I just finished reading all of D1 finally. And it almost made my eyes bleed.

[Andresvmb]

Frankly if you just read D1, the progression around Wake, and the early part of D2, it just makes me think House is Scum. And I hate that I’ve arrived at that conclusion and I honestly haven’t hated being a VT this hard in this long.

[Andresvmb]

I’m never going to die in this game, I’m going to have to re-read this garbage at some point again, and I don’t have time for this.

[Andresvmb]

Like I tried thinking about this rationally - why does House really want to veto the elimination of Wake that hard? And their claim put against Wake’s flipped role is an excellent reason for it and it just keeps nagging at me as if it was quite obvious but I don’t want to have to fight this fight and I’m just so tired of some of the arguments.

[Andresvmb]

House doesn’t have any incentive to full claim the entire role though and I don’t have any clear reads that I truly, truly trust. Kerset had every right to push me I think, so that argument from Titus is valid, but Kerset’s ISO isn’t the most inspirational thing either.

A50 I maintain is Town, and I really don’t see DotW as Scum. How could they? House shaded them HARD when they came out with a vote on Wake, saying they were fence sitting and all that.

[Andresvmb]

The only reason (and I mean this) that Nero is Town is because Ythan isn’t coming out saying Nero is Town and they’re the Team - way too risky and idiotic.

[Andresvmb]

CSF is the Backup Vig Claim right?

[Andresvmb]

VOTE: CSF

[Andresvmb]

The fact that I also hate your progression around Wake Math, only to then see the importance of your vote and subsequent ask for consolidation around 1822 is so aggravating to me. Literally up until then, I was thinking that you had given yourself up as Scum. And then you do that and sink Wake. I will say though - you were the alternative. If Wake has given up, and you want to continue fighting in the game because you’ve earned a foothold and think you can muddle through, then maybe you sink your buddy there PR be damned. But I don’t know, it just isn’t solid.

[Andresvmb]

The only reason (and I mean this) that Nero is Town is because Ythan isn’t coming out saying Nero is Town and they’re the Team - way too risky and idiotic.

You should get back to reading.

Ythan claimed cop and called Nero Inno.

Yes that’s what I mean. Nero’s posting D1 SUCKS. But Ythan and Nero aren’t Scum and so there are really two choices for me - either Ythan is Scum and clearing Nero for the credibility, or they’re Cop and Nero is Town. That’s exactly the point. From posting, I fucking hate Nero’s slot based purely on D1.

[Andresvmb]

The only reason (and I mean this) that Nero is Town is because Ythan isn’t coming out saying Nero is Town and they’re the Team - way too risky and idiotic.

shut up andre. I may have not been very accurate early game but my play hasn't been "scummy" or bad.

Yeah whatever. The arguments against you for toxicity and all that nonsense sucked too so I’m saying the whole of D1 feels like a clusterfuck. Like I feel dirty after having read all of that.

[Andresvmb]

I also cannot see why Kyouko is being thought of as Scum this game. I need Titus to break that out for me like I’m 12 but the constant sniping back and forth could really just be TvT and that would be embarrassing. For the 2 of you.

[Andresvmb]

Anyway I’m done with this game for now. I’m VLA for the next 3 days, but I will be coming back to hammer whoever makes sense except for {A50, Nero Cain, DotW, Titus, Ythan (mostly because it self-resolves)}.

[Andresvmb]

If I’m just speaking from my gut, based on what I purely feel, I would say DGB is Town, and Kyouko is Town. I almost feel like one of House or Mathblade has to be Scum, but I really don’t know. I do think House is sophisticated enough to pull this grumpy, aggressive, hard-headed style as Scum, but there’s just a side of me that’s screaming that I can’t read them for shit, and that if I wouldn’t claim as a multi-part Role my Partner’s Role, why in the hell would House do that? And I meant it when I said that based on the first 20 pages, House really strongly felt like Town and some of my early takes sometimes aren’t horrendous.

[Andresvmb]

If they’re both Town, then nuke Ythan.

[Andresvmb]

We’re 12 - it should be 7.

[Andresvmb]

If I’m just speaking from my gut, based on what I purely feel, I would say DGB is Town, and Kyouko is Town. I almost feel like one of House or Mathblade has to be Scum, but I really don’t know. I do think House is sophisticated enough to pull this grumpy, aggressive, hard-headed style as Scum, but there’s just a side of me that’s screaming that I can’t read them for shit, and that if I wouldn’t claim as a multi-part Role my Partner’s Role, why in the hell would House do that? And I meant it when I said that based on the first 20 pages, House really strongly felt like Town and some of my early takes sometimes aren’t horrendous.

I'd rather you vote me than sit on that fencepost.

Oh fuck you - I don’t have a definitive read of your slot so I’m Scum. Grow up. You want everyone to express ultimate confidence or they’re Scum. Is this really what you think Scum do? Just never express any reads with confidence?

[Andresvmb]

It’s literally the same accusation you’ve leveled at DotW for instance. That continues to age like shit btw.

[Andresvmb]

I can’t commit to a read of your slot because I just don’t know. I am uncertain. Live with it.

[Andresvmb]

VOTE: Mathblade

House is cleared btw. The Scum were trying to set him up. They’re Town.

[Andresvmb]

Mathblade is literally my best guess for what makes sense.

[Andresvmb]

Dragon is Town though. I say we go for the GOON. I mean, I agree with your first part that it's got to be a goon left because otherwise Math's role was designed to protect VTs and nothing more, and with a 1-shot Cop & 1-shot Rolecop I believe naming Math a Jailkeeper and not straight up Simple Doctor is very odd. I thus believe we lim in the VTs and Math goes on searching for that Goon if we miss.

VOTE: Kerset

Kerset is Town. Don’t be a derp.

[Andresvmb]

My weakest Town Read is Kyouko and I think they’re Town. The answer is literally either Math, maybe Titus (but I TR them quite strongly). DGB is almost always Town. DotW is Town. House is Town. A50 is practically cleared.

[Andresvmb]

Math needs to die here literally every time. If you guys don’t execute there at some point, we deserve to lose.

[Andresvmb]

VOTE: Mathblade

House is cleared btw. The Scum were trying to set him up. They’re Town.

What?

The check was supposed to be on the Ascetic, or you forget? That was a setup. House called it in fact. They don’t do that against a buddy, unless you think that’s TMI.

[Andresvmb]

Math is also voting me which is completely absurd. They’re not a bad player - they’re just acting like they are this game. And it’s a tactic.

[Andresvmb]

VOTE: Mathblade

House is cleared btw. The Scum were trying to set him up. They’re Town.

You’re better than this and it reeks of OMGUS.

Explain no kill N1.

OMGUS is a horrendous predictor of Scum, even if that was what I was doing (which it isn’t). And since I am not Scum, I don’t have to explain the lack of an NK. In fact I don’t care. Your play has been Scummy as all shit. That’s what I care about.

[Andresvmb]

VOTE: Mathblade

House is cleared btw. The Scum were trying to set him up. They’re Town.

Furthermore I can’t be setting up House here

I literally said if House checked CSF and got nothing it’s a guilty on CSF.

So if we did what I said we still get CSF.

House is Town. They don’t resist the check as Scum. That’s dumb. You would have to assume their Claim is fake then yeah? They would have then actually claimed that they were RB’ed, and if CSF is flipped they show up Ascetic and their Claim is confirmed and they’re never executed. Just no.

[Andresvmb]

Later in the game genius. They check CSF, CSF doesn’t get executed that day, and then later in the game if they are, House is practically set.

[Andresvmb]

I’m not voting for Town. Kerset is Town.

[Andresvmb]

Actually maybe DGB was the subject of some distancing votes? But I don’t know, seems like a stretch. That would have been some really strong distancing, so I’m not seeing that. CSF just kept pushing in that direction if I remember correctly.

[Andresvmb]

I’m really almost certain it’s just Math. That slot cannot survive to the end, and if it does, I am seriously going to be screaming at some of you. It’s fine if you don’t want to execute them immediately because of the lack of an NK N1. That’s fine. But I’m telling you - it would be completely idiotic not to execute them at some point. They can defend their play as having consistently shit reads, but you have to call it out every now and then.

[Andresvmb]

Also I had no input into the plan for House to check CSF. What kind of shitty Partner doesn’t even try and direct that to give my Partner one day more to live and burn part of a Claim?

C’mon some of you need to start thinking about what makes sense. The Scum D1 at some point clearly figured bussing Wake was the way to go. CSF and Math practically traded positions on that wagon. Math’s reads have been too consistently garbage for me to believe there isn’t at least some potential for them to be Scum.

[Andresvmb]

Since Math is obviously not going to out the truth, I will.

He's a Jailkeeper.

No modifier.

VOTE: Mathblade

GG

What about Neighbor?

[Andresvmb]

Told you he no-killed.

VOTE: MathBlade

This is a town reaction.

Since Math is obviously not going to out the truth, I will.

He's a Jailkeeper.

No modifier.

VOTE: Mathblade

GG

What about Neighbor?

This is not.

VOTE: Andresvmb

I copped DGB, who returned only Neighbor.

What. This is extremely dumb.

[Andresvmb]

We're 2/2 on scum kills.

Town isn't going to sit there and overanalyze a guilty result. Town will vote that shit out and then lim the one that claimed the guilty if they lied.

Andres was WAY too worried about sheeping my guilty claim.

My vote was already there. What are you talking about.

[Andresvmb]

I’m completely fine getting executed so that you can learn a fucking lesson. Absolutely. Kerset is Town and there will be an NK. And Math will keep harping about the lack of an NK. And we’re going to listen to some bad play and that’ll be that because that’s what happens.

I’m literally never mis-executed for a reason. This will actually be the first time in 18 games as Town if that happens.

[Andresvmb]

I mean I am simple JK your funeral.

Protown for me to flip

This is why I don't scheme with you.

You can't recognize my town shenanigans.

It worked didnt it?

You got something to say or are you going to keep voting me over a failed reaction test?

[Andresvmb]

I mean I am simple JK your funeral.

Protown for me to flip

This is why I don't scheme with you.

You can't recognize my town shenanigans.

It worked didnt it?

You got something to say or are you going to keep voting me over a failed reaction test?

Nah I scumread you before it and after.

So why didn’t I claim Vig? You thought you had caught some crumbs from me yeah? Why didn’t I help my Partner with their Claim when I was one of the last few people to Claim and I can get away with it if I claim gated and there’s a Jailkeeper (if I’m Scum, then your claim is accurate), which could explain more limited deaths?

[Andresvmb]

There’s lots of possible reasons why not.

Fear of counter claim
Fear of having to prove it
Fear of rolecop
Fear of linking yourself to CSF

There’s a lot of reasons

I am pretty much thinking you or Kerset if I am wrong Kyo proves herself scum with a death

I really want to see how you weasel out of getting executed when all these options fade or prove wrong.

[Andresvmb]

There’s lots of possible reasons why not.

Fear of counter claim
Fear of having to prove it
Fear of rolecop
Fear of linking yourself to CSF

There’s a lot of reasons

I am pretty much thinking you or Kerset if I am wrong Kyo proves herself scum with a death

And fear of having to prove it? I could have claimed 1-Shot Vig and I would have the factional NK. I don’t shoot N1 probably, so that’s not even that hard.

I could have also easily made the argument that I don’t myself to my Partner like that. Honestly you’re making it sound harder than it is.

[Andresvmb]

^link myself*

[Andresvmb]

If anything you’ve displayed a real fear of being Rolecopped by insisting on directing the check as hard as you have.

[Andresvmb]

Whatever I could be wrong and you’ve really had some crap reads and mostly defended Scum, but if the lack of an NK is all you have to hang your hat on, you should get executed.

[Andresvmb]

Yeah maybe I suck and it’s Kerset. Their D1 is not great. So sure, it’s possible. I’ll take another look at the ISO, but I don’t know why I’m so convinced it’s you Math. Sorry. The lack of an NK doesn’t confirm shit. Only a Cop check does.

[Andresvmb]

But I mean I don’t know that I don’t actually shoot there so there’s some validity to the argument. I just think you’re vastly underselling your Town skills, and that’s what I’m really worried about.

[Andresvmb]

@Mod I’m VLA until tonight. Was on vacation for a few days. Sorry.

[Andresvmb]

Okay I finally have some time. I’ll catch up and be back with some thoughts. I don’t know that my mind is that changed, but I suppose no one feels the same as me so, I have little choice.

[Andresvmb]

How much you want to bet that Kerset flips Town?

[Andresvmb]

Also House was obviously Town, that was pretty obvious.

[Andresvmb]

I am like almost certain it’s just Math and we’re going to lose because no one will have the balls to do it. But whatever.

[Andresvmb]

How much you want to bet that Kerset flips Town?

I am kinda like if Kerset does we still autowin I think?

At most one person is lying about claims.

We know scum shot A50 so prob not Kyo

I mean we have conf town Nero and conf town me and prob town you. I mean like scum are gonna either flip or be PoE’d.

You should be dead my dude. The fact you weren’t directly shot is completely unbelievable.

[Andresvmb]

The Scum isn’t stupid enough to see that they’re not going to be Jailkept and not shoot you. They will find themselves in a 1v1 with you at this rate if they don’t react, or they don’t care because they have a power and cannot be stopped. But then the Mod created your role for the lols so that you could what, slowly clear Town that doesn’t have a power? Seems idiotic.

[Andresvmb]

Also now we know for sure that CSF was baiting rolecop to protect Math from House check. Flips are clear now.

Explain pls

CSF claimed backup vig. It is a role, which can be confirmed as town by rolecop. CSF is scum, House the rolecop town. CSF wanted to bait rolecop to prevent him from checking someone.

Not only did House call this when it was happening, I called it yesterday too. Which is why I said House was cleared. Not being active is a real pain - dumb things happen.

[Andresvmb]

Frankly, this game has turned absolutely boring. I’m basically waiting to get shot here.

And when I do, execute Math.

[Andresvmb]

This whole exercise in confirming players and trying to play it out mechanically is just not real mafia.

[Andresvmb]

Can somebody try to explain to me what makes Kerset Scum outside of this need to try and sort through either the PRs or the VTs?

[Andresvmb]

Well at least we won. Hooray?

[Andresvmb]

good job Dre

Honestly I feel I played pretty poorly. I had a good grasp for a lot of the Town. But that’s the easy part. I couldn’t quite catch CSF though I voted there. And I would have eventually figured out DotW from an inescapable POE but I was killed because of my poor read.

As a tactic from Scum’s perspective, I wouldn’t have done that. I really do feel players around here do not pay sufficient attention to dead players. You’re better off as Scum keeping those TR’ing you around.

[Andresvmb]

At my least my W/L record is up to 40% as Town. Once I hit 50% I’ll celebrate. Gotta win 4 more in a row.

[Andresvmb]

Thanks Mod! Overall Town played okay despite the constant bickering. Math being Town is amazing hahaha