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[Nathann]

VOTE: Dwlee99

Not a serious vote.

[Nathann]

VOTE: MargotRosa

VOTE: Kazyan

Why the self-vote?

Let me know what you eat for breakfast, as that will form the basis of my scumhunting.

What if I don't eat breakfast?

[Nathann]

It's not. I confess, I usually eat oatmeal.

[Nathann]

VOTE: Kazyan

Why the self-vote?

It's an RVS gag? Weird question.

But the sacred rules of RVS say that you must vote someone else to try to read their reaction and immediately start solving the game. It's not a weird question.

[Nathann]

anyone know if our mob does this sort of thing on a regular basis?

Who's the "our mob"?

[Nathann]

Is that was RVS is supposed to do? Huh. Fair, then. I haven't noticed reactions to RVS-voting someone being important, but apparently, voting for myself can get a response too.

In theory, at least. Debatable how well it accomplishes that in practice. Does the response tell you anything?

yes, moderator, sorry typed too quickly. like, i know what an innocent child is but a day zero one i've not seen before. it is unusual enough that i wondered if the moderator was known for weird roles

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=83755
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=82764

Skimming through our moderator's topics, I found his last two Normal games had a d1 Innocent Child. Though I'm sceptical on how much value we get from discussing this in depth right now.

[Nathann]

This is also a bad post. Arbitrary townread here is bad juju.

Says the person Townreading me for my breakfast choice.

I was about to type out the above question on why Alice didn't think I was distancing, so yeah, interested in that answer. Agreed that Kyouko is giving me Townie vibes, 69 is something similar to what I felt about Margot's entry.

I find Alice's 62 a bit weird. I don't think their Townread on me is objectively good (I don't think pulling out some links to the moderator's past games is outside what I would do as scum), but it seemed genuine enough. However, 62 feels weirdly defensive? I guess it strikes me as odd that they would be calling for being disproven by my meta when they've never played with me before, and when my account has one completed game.

[Nathann]

@Alice, no comment on the last paragraph of my 74?

@geraintm, why are you voting Kyouko?

[Nathann]

Kazyan hints at having... a role? In a game of mafia? Unbelievable.

geraintm, mind answering my 88?

[Nathann]

It was a random vote, done same way I do every game.

It didn't seem random, considering it was made after some discussion and after you quoted post from Kyouko.

Then game isn't balanced.kayzan has already said they have a PR

No, they said they have a role, not necessarily a power one. Learn to read.

I hate a lot of what geraintm has posted so far. However, it feels almost too blunt to be coming from Scum. It could be refuge in audacity, but I somehow feel it's more likely geraintm here genuinely thinks he's helping the Town by discussion the Innocent Child and keeping track of claims and whatnot. This play coming from scum would have to be some major playing dumb. Anyone have experience with Scum!geraintm and whether he's capable of this?

That said, please do the note taking about roles in private. Calling out potential power role softs to the whole thread (including Scum) is a horrible way to play Town.

[Nathann]

VOTE: Ythan

I'm not sure I like Ythan's entrance into the game. Most of his posting so far focuses on geraintm, and it feels like he's purposefully trying to paint his posts in a scummy manner. 131 seems to be doing that, and I'm not sure I'd expect 136 from Town. The explanation for geraintm's fixation on the Innocent Child seems reasonable to me, and Ythan plainly dismissing it makes me think Ythan might be Scum attacking the Townie that's doing silly things.

I am also getting scumpings on one other person, though I'd like to see them post more before I say something.

[Nathann]

though I'm still kinda in the phase where I only know anything about Jolyne's role and my role.

They said they had a role. That doesn't imply it's a power role.

[Nathann]

Okay, I will ask the obvious question: why are you voting for Alice when you have a stronger scumread in Dwlee?

[Nathann]

VOTE: Ythan

I'm not sure I like Ythan's entrance into the game. Most of his posting so far focuses on geraintm, and it feels like he's purposefully trying to paint his posts in a scummy manner. 131 seems to be doing that, and I'm not sure I'd expect 136 from Town. The explanation for geraintm's fixation on the Innocent Child seems reasonable to me, and Ythan plainly dismissing it makes me think Ythan might be Scum attacking the Townie that's doing silly things.

I am also getting scumpings on one other person, though I'd like to see them post more before I say something.

What purpose do you think his line questioning was intended to serve from a town perspective?

Nothing positive, and I've already made it clear that I dislike what he's doing. But just because someone's doing something that isn't pro-Town, doesn't mean that they themselves aren't Town, and geraintm strikes me as a Townie who would definitely be capable of doing something like this, especially coupled with the fact he was just a Day 3 IC in a game.

I'm sure you know that anti-Town behaviour =/= Scum, so I'm kind of raising an eyebrow at your response to me here.

[Nathann]

Thinking about recent interactions, though, I'm pretty sure the scumteam can't be Dwlee+Ythan, actually, since I have a hard time seeing this whole conversation as distancing. So if Dwlee were to flip red, I'd give Ythan a huge pile of towncred, or vice versa, but that's thinking so far ahead that it's not super helpful.

Do you have really low expectations for Scum's ability to do theatre? Their conversation seemed like boring meta blabber to me. Why does it give you the impression that it's difficult to fake, more than anything else we've seen in the game so far?

[Nathann]

I know anti town behavior isn't automatically scum you clown but it's the best thing I have to go on right now and it does stick out to me more than anything else going on.

Did I strike a nerve? Yes, I figured you know that, which is why your retort of "what's the purpose from a Town POV?" makes me wary. I get that he was sticking out, but it looked like sticking out in a Townie manner.

but if it's actually consistent with 'typical' scum theater, then that's more interesting.

I'm not saying I think they're Scum together, I was just pointing out that the interaction didn't seem like anything too difficult to fake.

Kazyan, I noticed that you were focusing a lot on potential team reads (202, 198, 165). Is this something that you usually do? Oh, regarding your Dwlee read, what gave you the feeling of opportunism regarding their interaction with Ythan?

[Nathann]

Anyway, I’m going to say Kazyan is Town. So perhaps let’s not execute there. Nathann is maybe Town but probably too early for that read and seems competent.

Ahaha, I love the paranoia when I haven't even done anything yet. Do you have a read on Kazyan outside of 64?

Writing down that a typo (which really is the simplest explanation since someone else immediately interpreted it that way before the clarification came) was actually a Traitor crumb is a

real

stretch.

I don't see the issue in both recognizing that a typo was made and what it was supposed to say, and theorizing that the typo was maybe done on purpose as a Traitor crumb. And I'm kind of weirded out at your question later that Dwlee should've made a distinction between the two paragraphs. Do you think Dwlee is scummy for not having done that?

[Nathann]

Do you have a read on Kazyan outside of 64?

Their readslist seemed fine, but I do agree with (I think it was) you when you pointed out that the vote didn’t match the strongest SR. That seemed interesting.

The readslist is as fine as a page 6 readslist can be. Interesting definitely, though I'd be lying if I said it makes me lean one alignment over the other.

Anyway, the reason I ask. Kazyan is the person I was getting scumpings on earlier. Things like responding with "good point" when there was no point made (46) or pointing out how there's not enough info for them to do anything

while

there was somewhat productive discussion happening around the (92) pinged me the wrong way. Readlist was okay, and I disliked the focus on teamreads rather than individual reads, as that feels like an easy way to stay busy while not actually helping. The explanation for that in 257 is okay, I guess.

The reason I out this now is because I realize I'm slowly getting tunnelled on that read, and could probably use a sanity check. And you were the only one (I think) to express a read on them earlier, and I'm gonna cheat slightly and sheep our IC's read on you for the time being, so. What do you think?

Of course, others' takes also welcome.

[Nathann]

I think it’s Scummy that DW called a whole post Towny thoughts, was challenged on the content of the post they said contained a Towny thought process (even though clearly they don’t think all of the content makes sense), and then narrowed the scope of their comment to the first paragraph when the second paragraph clearly follows from the first (and said the second paragraph was NAI). What I guess I’m saying is that we could be seeing fake reasoning for a read (that I think is correct, funny enough). It just seemed like a really superficial read to me.

Don't think I'm gonna agree. I can see where you're coming from, and if I think about it a bit more, I can see the backpedalling of "it was only the first paragraph" as Scum caught in a shallow read. But I think it's just as likely that that was Town!Dwlee who thought of the first paragraph as Townie, and didn't bother to specify which part of the post they were referring to. And having skimmed that part of their ISO and not seeing evidence of them calling the second paragraph Townie then backpedalling (and since I already had some Townie gutpings on Dwlee), I'm gonna go with the latter.

[Nathann]

Still, Dwlee is currently one of those cases where the evidence seems to point to scum, so that's where I should vote...but for whatever reason, my heart isn't in it.

I am kind of inclined to Townread this, considering this is something I often feel. Easily faked, but does Scum think to fake it...

I'm not accepting criticism.

Heh.

I'd be lying if I said I fully get why the reaction of "what if Traitor" is a Towntell while assuming three Scum isn't, but I don't plan on arguing about it for now.

[Nathann]

I get that he was sticking out, but it looked like sticking out in a Townie manner.

Don't see what you're seeing.

I skipped over this - I dunno, he just gives me the vibe of a Townie doing dumb things not caring how he looks. I assume Scum would probably be aware that openly speculating on the IC and listing claimed roles repeatedly will do nothing but potentially piss people off and bring heat his way. And considering geraintm said himself (or has it been mentioned by Andres? I don't care enough to go back to look) that he's not a strong player Day 1, doesn't that just unnecessarily increase the odds he gets yeeted?

Obviously it could be a bluff by Scum, but that requires a bit higher level of play that my gut tells me he's not playing on here. Which, again, if there's evidence to geraintm playing this way on Day 1 as Scum, I'm open to reconsideration. I am getting kind of worried about him being gone anyway, but I'm not sure if I should actually be expecting anything.

[Nathann]

Andres is scum.

Could you elaborate on why you think this?

I dislike 369 from GrandpaMo. Ythan's 354 is as bland of a reaction as it can be that shows no deeper thought process whatsoever. (No, I'm not calling Ythan scum because of it.) To then have GrandpaMo Townread it because the post was confusing and only Town would react with confusion on a confusing post is... No. I'd maybe understand if Ythan showed some nuanced thought about it, but he didn't, so GrandpaMo's Townread there feels really forced.

DGB/Jolyne spat feels more like personalities / playstyles clashing than anything I could draw alignment info out of. This is me explicitly

not

implying that I Townread DGB. Though I think it would be a good idea to chill out for a second, because I have a feeling it's likely the two of you argue regardless of DGB's alignment, and in... 9 out of 11 times, that's going to be strictly counter productive.

And geraintm's 434 and 435 make my head hurt. Is anyone gonna bother explaining how no-yeeting means we lose an elimination, and why that's a bad thing, especially in a game like this where Town power will likely be very low?

[Nathann]

Enchant, when can we expect something from you?

Kazyan, is there anyone your heart does want to vote?

[Nathann]

Alice gives me vague Townie pings, they seem genuine enough, I don't notice an obvious agenda, and they seem similar enough to another Town game I skimmed.

I will keep my vote where it is.

Do you have any updated thoughts on this?

@Jolyne, I don't want you to have to do my homework, but I'm not sure I see whatever you see with them. Would you be willing to help out?

[Nathann]

I'd want to vote in [GrandpaMo, Ythan]. Nullish pile that I wouldn't mind voting in is [Nixie, DGB, Enchant]. Not a scumread but wouldn't mind voting for other reasons is [geraintm]. Anyone else I would need to see some good arguments.

[Nathann]

Also surprised nobody has commented on his slip yet

I'm blind apparently, what was it?

[Nathann]

I'd want to vote in [GrandpaMo, Ythan]. Nullish pile that I wouldn't mind voting in is [Nixie, DGB, Enchant]. Not a scumread but wouldn't mind voting for other reasons is [geraintm]. Anyone else I would need to see some good arguments.

ok cool everyone wants to vote me but like only 2 ppl have gave a reason on why im scum. and one of that person had weak reasoning.

You could try presenting your view of the game and showing us a thought process instead of just crying about it?

[Nathann]

i have multiple times... just iso me dude.

I did skim through your ISO, I found a few reads scattered around that I felt weren't explained properly. I wouldn't have asked otherwise.

Also, re Kyouko's 462, wow. It's quite possible I was one of the views, because I'm often around to open the game when there's a new post, but I don't always feel like responding immediately. Which leads me to the next question - even if he was one of the views there without posting, what implication does that have on his alignment?

[Nathann]

VOTE: GrandpaMo

[Nathann]

It's not like you want to ask something from me, or so on.

Do you respond to those who do actually ask something of you?

[Nathann]

I realize now I missed 490, but uh. Don't think it invalidates my point

that

much.

[Nathann]

I asked about random-ass people to throw Enchant off-script, but the Nixie read seems genuine; if scum were just playing it cool and trying to give real responses, they wouldn't verbally shrug like that.

Judging by Andres's 485, it looks like Scum!Enchant does verbally shrug a lot.

[Nathann]

This question can be answered by actual play

Considering it's about ~3 days left on the clock in a relatively low active game with prod timers being 48 hours, you being in the game for about 18 hours now, actively posting but none of it being of any worth or substance... The answer to that question by your actual play is that you're not doing anything. So I'm gonna ask. Either you say right away you're not gonna do anything so we can kill you immediately, you make false promises and we kill you after a few days of prodging, or you actually do something.

[Nathann]

Andres, I believe 512 is aimed at me, considering the very creative jab at my avatar.

First, I'm not the Town leader, but I'm sure not going to sit by and wait for the IC to magically solve the game for us.

Second, I cannot tell between Scum lurksacks and Town lurksacks, that's the problem. You cannot be read if you're not doing anything. However, if you think that me not voting you at this time makes me Scum, go ahead and push me, see how well that ends for you.

Third, sure, I cannot force you to be active. Don't be surprised if you get yeeted as a consequence of being an unreadable mess, though.

This is where I will most likely stop engaging, both for my own peace and the thread's.

[Nathann]

Also, Andres, thanks for the ISO. From the time I asked till now, my read on Kazyan went to "don't want to murder them right now, but will keep an eye out" by itself, but I do appreciate the effort, especially as it makes me think you're Town further.

[Nathann]

its kinda impossible for me to "solve the game" for town if town doesn't act on their own accord/present their own opinions so.

Yes, that's the whole point. The "you're not the Townleader" line annoyed me.

[Nathann]

Okay, because I am somewhat bored and sleep is for the weak, I'm gonna look over GrandpaMo's ISO. I want to see every single instance of him actually giving a read, because the "lol I gave reads just ISO me dude" is annoying me and I want to see if I'm blind or not.

Spoiler: all of the reads he's given so far

Damn knowing that there is 2 maf alive -- this makes Nixie more town here due to townslipping.

i still kinda sacumread geraintm tho -- i feel like this slot has much scum equity that was overshadowed by other mafia focusing attention on other people.

wait forgot there was 2 maf -- that logic doesnt rlly make sense -- unless 1 mafia really motivated the pivot off geraintm and found a way to really fit in.

How do you TMI your Scum Partner this early? And how is a typo (“mob” instead of “mod”) actually a clue for a Traitor in any reasonable context? What is this thought process?

ok i think this line of reasoning / questioning comes from a town perspective +town

ssb is probably town here as well.

but all seriousness, if you are taljking bout gerantim -- im still reading that slot. its more null / scum lean and that is because of the fact that there could be mafia between dgb and gerantim.

[That Ythan post I talked about earlier]
ok i think ur town for having this reaction.

I'll ISO you, GMo, to see if that stuff is true.

This is also feels like scum resending here after pushed with facts. You will look at my iso and realize the shitpush you just made lol.

The contents of the spoiler:

- Nixie is Town for Townslipping.
- geraintm was declared Scummy because of thread movement, only to then walk back on that read due to remembering there's only 2 Scum.
- Andres is Townie because of 192.
- Kyouko is Townie because of 200.
- geraintm is null/Scum due to there possibly being Scum between him and DGB. (?)
- Ythan is Town because of 354.
- And Scumreading Kazyan for 540 (and their bad read on him).

So, Nixie/Andres/Kyouko are Town because of extremely simple reasoning, Ythan is Town for very bad reasoning (see my 436). I'm assuming the Scum between geraintm/DGB stems from 320, which is questionable. And the Scumread on Kazyan is fine, though again, nothing spectacular.

At 464, when I ask him to present his thought process for us to read, he claims done it multiple times. At that point, I couldn't remember him actually going into anything (other than the Ythan read, which I'm sure you get by now that I hated), I thought maybe I skipped over stuff. Now I don't think I have.

Anyway, I find it Scummy that GrandpaMo's first reaction to people scumreading him is to complain how people are Scumreading him for bad reasons, surface level logic, he's not efforting yet, etc, but when you look at what analysis GrandpaMo has actually done in this game, it's... next to nothing. And when he actually gets asked to present the thoughts, it's "I have them in my ISO". Where?

As I am typing this, I am getting a bad gut feeling that this is a Townie who actually thinks they're being super Townie and acting accordingly, but uh. I don't think I can be playing this game on unfounded gut feelings when his ISO gives me a strong vibe of Scum not doing anything and drowning the thread in bloat.

[Nathann]

Now, onto Part 2... What the hell is Kazyan doing.

Kazyan's mentions of GrandpaMo, prior to this little spat, are: 46 (having a good point), 149 (gut scumlean), 478 (willing to yeet, no explanation), 525 (badposting). A pretty much consistent scumread, never any elaborate explanation given for it.

Looking at their ISO of GrandpaMo (552) - Why is giving a simple read on Nixie Townie? (Yes, I know you wrote a comment how Scum probably lets a comment like that slide, so I guess my question then is, do you expect scum to be doing nothing? Or, what's the line between something Scum would or wouldn't let slide? There's probably no correct answer to this, but I wanna see some sorta thought process here.) Why is setup speculation Townie?

Regarding you Townreading his 369, could you give me your opinion on the second paragraph of my 436?

And, probably the question I care about the most - why were you consistently Scumreading GrandpaMo in the first place? I don't care if you changed your mind in the meantime or whatnot, because this shift feels extremely weird. Maybe I'm biased in thinking that GrandpaMo isn't Townie, I could be. But I don't know if I find your current thought process regarding him to make any sense whatsoever.

[Nathann]

I'll point out that I haven't technically read his ISO, I was just skimming for him giving reads and singling those instances out. I went over it two times, so I don't

think

I missed any, but I am working with some sleep deprivation so do yell at me if I'm wrong. I did not take in any of the other posts, but my post wasn't a commentary of his ISO as a whole anyway.

I wish I could present a definite answer, and I know hedging is generally frowned upon, but I'd be lying if I didn't point out that the thought did occur to me.

[Nathann]

Why were you consistently Scumreading GrandpaMo in the first place?

Fluffy posts. Short, snippy, "active lurking" without any particularly hot takes. Those are the kinds of things that make an impression on me when I'm not really paying attention.
---

Could you give me your opinion on the second paragraph of my 436?

I think it's circular, in describing the post as "confusing". You say the following: "

ecause the post was confusing and only Town would react with confusion on a confusing post is... No." This assumes that the confusingness of the post in question is self-evident, but GMo wouldn't think his own post was like that, because he's the one who made it and he understands his own thoughts.

So, if you're not paying attention, those posts make you scumread a person, but when you reread, you found them NAI, did I get that right? Why do you no longer find it Scummy then?

And I'm not sure if you got what I'm saying here. Or maybe I don't get your reply. I know GrandpaMo wouldn't think of his own post like that. However, my issue is that he uses someone else's confusion at his post to Townread them. Ythan's reaction was basically "wtf", and GrandpaMo declared that reaction as Townie because "only town would react in a way where they thought the way i said was weird." I get the feeling there's something off about thinking that only Town would react with confusion at a confusing post.

[Nathann]

And now the more I stare at 369, the more I think that maybe,

maybe

GrandpaMo's reaction makes sense from Town because he's calling on a mindmeld. But Ythan's reaction is so plain and that is such an obvious confusing post, anyone could've called it out... Yeah, I'm gonna stop thinking about this for the night. This has somehow made me wanna yeet Ythan again.

[Nathann]

@Nathann I read Ythan’s ISO (it’s short). I don’t know Ythan’s meta, but I’ll say this - I don’t see them as Scum here. It’s early, the takes are dry, but they seem unconcerned about how others perceive them and seem genuine to me. Not rock solid, can be faked, and I don’t trust all my early reads. But at a gut level, seems like Town.

My main issue was that his scumread of geraintm felt opportunistic to me. I got a strong gut feeling that geraintm was a Townie who was tripping over his own words, and that made me see Ythan as scum that's trying to take advantage of anti-Town behaviour.

I know that's not foolproof, but /shrug. I don't have much else, as the rest of his posts don't sway me one way or another, at least not from memory.

[Nathann]

Maybe an interesting question would be why Ythan saw geraintm as possible Scum, while he declared Enchant as low hanging fruit, but I feel like the two have had different enough plays, it wouldn't be too difficult to come up with a decent answer.

[Nathann]

This has somehow made me wanna yeet Ythan again.

This may sound self serving coming from me but that's sure and odd conclusion to draw after the rest of your post (which I snipped out to highlight the specific part I'm referring to)

I won't say it isn't. I started thinking whether GrandpaMo's reaction to your post actually made sense from a Town perspective or not, which made me think of that post of yours, which then made me think back to our spat early game and how I hadn't noticed anything Townie from you in the meantime.

[Nathann]

Naathan has not even come up with a good scumcase on me either just because I haven't explained my logic. When I have multiple times -- in which I responded and never got a response back -- explained to them.

Okay, then please quote where you have explained your logic. But in a way that's deeper that "*quotes a random post* - this is a Townie thought process". Because I went looking for your reads specifically yesterday, I didn't find much.

And this whole thing about not having a solid Scumcase on you, dude, this is mafia, I have a feeling you would call anything short of a Cop guilty "not a solid Scumcase". But even then, it's Day 1, I am working with what I got. And I got someone that's posting a shit ton of bloat, has minimal reads, and throws a tantrum when someone Scumreads them. Is it a solid Scumcase? Not really, but if I were only voting for those who I had a "solid Scumcase" on, we'd be here for a long time.

[Nathann]

Okay this proves my point. You haven't read my iso -- and have not fully analyzed my mindset. This obviously leads to confbias into pinpointing specific posts (after people have scumread me) to scumread me for and never see a town motive for them. I suggest you doing that + looking at my past games before indulging into my point even more.

Me looking at your ISO was only to see if you actually have reads as you had claimed, I said as much. However, in my skimming, I got the feeling that the vast majority of the posts I skipped were posts like "I'm bored/lazy", random setup specc, or otherwise useless posts that don't actually show much of your mindset.

Later on, I might muster energy to Actually Read your ISO in full and write a post about it, but I feel like anything I say is just going to be met with more rebuttals about it not being a solid Scumcase and asking me to read your meta or whatever, and I'm not sure I have the willpower.

[Nathann]

Ythan

Why is Ythan in your Townreads?

[Nathann]

Pointing to your iso and saying "I've already explained this" (if this isn't demonstrably true) and refusing to engage is a scum tell I actually believe in.

I mean, I went through his ISO yesterday looking specifically looking for his reads and explanations for those, after I was told to do that as he's apparently already posted them. Now, I have been feeling like shit the past few days so I will admit my mistake if I am that blind as to not having seen them, but when the "I've already explained them and I'm not getting a response" keeps repeating... I don't know.

[Nathann]

Naathan has not even come up with a good scumcase on me either just because I haven't explained my logic. When I have multiple times -- in which I responded and never got a response back -- explained to them.

Sat down for 10 minutes to reread his ISO. This never happened. The only read that has been explained is the Ythan one. Andres/Kyouko/whoever else had been given weak reasons by quoting a post and calling it Townie. Either we're talking way past each other on what is he referring to as responding or explaining, or this is a lie.

[Nathann]

Ythan

Why is Ythan in your Townreads?

He feels natural cause he is talking like I see him do outside of mafia

Do you know if Scum!Ythan has trouble faking his casual tone? Cause if not, that doesn't sound like a great reason to Townread someone.

[Nathann]

Ythan

Why is Ythan in your Townreads?

He feels natural cause he is talking like I see him do outside of mafia

Do you know if Scum!Ythan has trouble faking his casual tone? Cause if not, that doesn't sound like a great reason to Townread someone.

It sounds like you don't townread ythan? It isn't the best reason necessarily but it's good enough for me to have him higher than the people lower than him and I don't see a reason to have him lower.

I don't Townread him, I've been saying that for... a while now. His push on geraintm way back pinged me wrong, and the rest of his posts didn't impress. Though, to be fair, this read is probably due for a reread on my part. That's most likely not happening Today as time is running low, there's not a lot of people that would want to vote him, and I'm feeling a bit lazy and don't feel like doing things that I don't have an immediate use for.

[Nathann]

UNVOTE: GrandpaMo

I'm gonna be boring, but I'd actually like to see GrandpaMo's responses first, as well as something from Nixie and Enchant if possible.

[Nathann]

Kyo, if you're out there, please hammer.

I do not love this gamestate. Nixie, AliceK, and gerantim (to a lesser extent) are off in space, and Enchant is one step above active-lurking. The game is going to be unwinnable if that persists; I actually think I want to yeet a lurker today instead of GMo, if there's enough political will left in the town. Does that sound agreeable?

These posts being 7 and a half minutes apart sure is A Look.

For the record, I wouldn't mind yeeting a lurker if it shows that they're unlikely to play the game later. Yes, that means Enchant.

[Nathann]

a bunch of night actions to help us tomorrow

-> A 2v11 game with a confirmed Innocent Child.
-> A bunch of useful Night actions.

Pick one.

[Nathann]

I could do Kazyan but I'd rather not do a lurker (Enchant) over him or Gramps d1. I'm judging them on content they posted and that's not likely to change going forward but a lurker will either do something later or be a better target if he's still lurking later imo.

If you're judging them on the content they posted, why do you think it's not gonna change going forward? Your recent posts seem to be going through Kazyan's ISO, and judging by 679, you're still only on 92, which feels like a bit of an early call?

@Dwlee, what changed your mind on me? And on Kazyan, why not.

[Nathann]

I also feel like there is something tonally different from dead silence? That part is intangible though and I don't like meta anyway.

Well, I don't feel like shooting myself every time I have to post, so you're not wrong.

I could do Kazyan but I'd rather not do a lurker (Enchant) over him or Gramps d1. I'm judging them on content they posted and that's not likely to change going forward but a lurker will either do something later or be a better target if he's still lurking later imo.

If you're judging them on the content they posted, why do you think it's not gonna change going forward? Your recent posts seem to be going through Kazyan's ISO, and judging by 679, you're still only on 92, which feels like a bit of an early call?

@Dwlee, what changed your mind on me? And on Kazyan, why not.

I mean I'm looking at their content now and tomorrow they'll have more of the same. It's helpful but I think the difference between a lurker as a potential wagon is larger between days 1 and 2 if that makes sense.

Er, sorry, not sure I get what you're trying to say. I wasn't asking about the lurkers.

[Nathann]

357 (why does scum say this?)

I don't think anyone should give any Townpoints to someone pointing at their own post and going "why does scum say this?" in the "this is too scummy for scum to say" sense. You obviously think it's Townie, why wouldn't Scum!you say it.

Regarding the rest of the post, I didn't say you had no reads or no analysis, but even what you quoted, most of it is pretty weak questioning. 727 is more what I think of when I say "analysis".

I don't love 727 because a lot of it feels like nitpicking the fact that Dwlee's two scumreads are scumreading each other. Or just in general things that he concludes can be NAI or "fair". It's better than his previous content sure, but meh.

re: Kazyan's grid - I Townread everyone who wasn't on the list of people I said I would vote.

[Nathann]

VOTE: Kazyan
Still gotta read the other players, got pulled into some meta here.

Is the vote result of the meta? If so, sell me on it?

Actually sell me on it regardless, I'm not sure where to vote.

[Nathann]

I'm being time efficient and townclearing people i can read easily.

You can easily read me?

(I know I have other things to respond to, will get to those later.)

[Nathann]

Wait -- I think I got it confused. I am in a hood with Titus and DGB... and we think titus is scum.

Didn't the IC say that nobody in this game has Daytalk or am I imagining that?

[Nathann]

My info is:

There are only 2 mafia.

There is no daytalk1

That second bit is right there in the game rules, so...

I know for a fact no one has it.

So you’re an Informed IC? I have to say, I’m a bit terrified of the potential for Scum shenanigans. If this game actually was mountainous with 2 Scum, it would be horribly unbalanced. At least to me it would. That’s what, 4 mis-executions before you get to ELo? There’s no way.

not only are we guaranteed only 2 people aligned with mafia, there is 100% no encryptors meaning that scum can't even communicate.

Jolyne, does your information say no Mafia Encryptors or no Encryptors period?

[Nathann]

If the Mafia doesn't have Daytalk without an Encryptor, the Neighbourhood shouldn't have it either. I wanna figure out what is happening and whether someone is screwing up their fake claim.

[Nathann]

We know there’s only 2 Scum, but the Neighborhood allegedly has 3 players. So that’s not a fake claim.

Yeah, I guess. I jumped at the "Neighbours claim + claimed Daytalk in Hood + IC said there's no Daytalk = Fakeclaim?", but it's never that easy, is it.

[Nathann]

Also, i have feeling we have third party (i mean stab-stabby one), otherwise it's unbalanced.

Can't have a Serial Killer in a Mini Normal, so no.

[Nathann]

I also claim to have TMI of something to be revealed day 2 -- hence my weird specc shit. The closest thing I can think of is another IC that reveals on day 2 etc.

Can you clarify what this is? If it's not anti-Town to do so.

And I believe Mini Normals can only have Town and Mafia.

[Nathann]

Also I believe Sk can be included in normals right?

Not in a Mini Normal.

And Titus isn't claiming Neighbour, this is beautiful. Fingers crossed it actually was that easy.

[Nathann]

Anyway, can somebody do the work and tell me if either Titus or DGB have hinted at being in a Neighborhood at all?

I opened DBG's ISO and ctrl+F'ed "Grandpa" in it, it seemed to go from a consistent Scumread to a Townread based on some frustration or something, but there weren't many interactions between them. Didn't check GrandpaMo's, though.

[Nathann]

GrandpaMo, why did you think Titus was in a Hood with you?

[Nathann]

New Scumplay meta: fakeclaiming Neighbour with a Townie you're not in a Hood with? Gotta write that one down.

[Nathann]

Fuck me, now I actually think GrandpaMo is Townie for that. Though the *does a thing* > "Mafia wouldn't do what I just did!" sequence is really starting to get on my nerves.

[Nathann]

If the Mafia doesn't have Daytalk without an Encryptor, the Neighbourhood shouldn't have it either. I wanna figure out what is happening and whether someone is screwing up their fake claim.

Off the top of my head I don't think this speculation they neighbors require an encryptor for day talk is correct. I think that specifically enables the mafia to communicate. And the rule about how the rules have to say if mafia can talk without an encryptor, I'm pretty sure that's also specific to the mafia.

No.

Encryptor enables Daytalk in any Private Topic they're in, not just the Scumchat. And Daytalk is either global (all PTs have it without an Encryptor) or it isn't (nobody has it), it can't be Mafia-specific.

[Nathann]

Fuck me, now I actually think GrandpaMo is Townie for that. Though the *does a thing* > "Mafia wouldn't do what I just did!" sequence is really starting to get on my nerves.

I explained why mafia doesn't do that. It's not like I didn't explain it and just blantly said mafia wouldn't do this. I explained why not. And I realized I use a lot of wifom as town lol. (knowing my meta)

It doesn't matter. As long as you're pointing at yourself and saying how Mafia doesn't do that because it bring negative attention or whatever, that claim is void.

Pedit: Titus, link? And what do you mean?

[Nathann]

@Nathann- viewtopic.php?f=2&t=86800 Deco

From what I see, Mafia had an Encryptor, and had Daytalk while they were alive, then didn't once they died.

The Neighborhood didn't have an Encryptor, didn't have Daytalk, then had Daytalk when the Encryptor got added.

That is exactly what I said. There was no global Daytalk, only in the PTs where an Encryptor existed.

[Nathann]

Oh yeah, I'm playing this game here or something - I don't love Titus' reaction saying that Andres is Scummy for wanting to yeet between the contradictory claims, but I also don't love Andres' reaction saying he won't be able to trust anything else he says the entire game. They're probably not both Scum?

[Nathann]

Oh yeah, I'm playing this game here or something - I don't love Titus' reaction saying that Andres is Scummy for wanting to yeet between the contradictory claims, but I also don't love Andres' reaction saying he won't be able to trust anything else he says the entire game. They're probably not both Scum?

Do you think there is scum between?

No idea. This is the only strike so far on Andres' record in my book, and I'm sheeping Koba a bit on him. Titus might be, I don't love her entrance, but it's not enough gor me to make a definitive call.

[Nathann]

Oh yeah, I'm playing this game here or something - I don't love Titus' reaction saying that Andres is Scummy for wanting to yeet between the contradictory claims, but I also don't love Andres' reaction saying he won't be able to trust anything else he says the entire game. They're probably not both Scum?

Why? Andres!scum benefits if we're both town.

And in that case, Andres!Scum knows that there's a misunderstanding in progress and will get resolved shortly. At best, he gets a few posts of distraction of benefit from the push.

[Nathann]

If that's the case, why does town!Andres continue to push?

I know I'm supposing GrandpaMo town here but I don't feel like scum do that.

Because now, he's not pushing for there being a mechanical contradictiom between you and GrandpaMo, he's pushing because GrandpaMo lied about his claim? Those aren't the same.

[Nathann]

VOTE: Kazyan?

Not sure if I liked their earlier pop-in.

[Nathann]

Scum could have seen the play as GMo and DGB actually being townie neighbors and backing Titus into a corner. scum!Titus couldn't have fired back on GMo for risk of GMo actually getting voted out, and if he flipped as an actual Neighbor, that would have made Titus the automatic elimonation on day 2. But, then, town!Titus would have GMo and DGB either being weird or throwing the match as a scumteam, which would surely elicit...something. Idk

@Andres @GrandpaMo, yes, this is the post that pinged me wrong. Right after there was a pretty big event happening, someone jumps in with this? I think it's obvious why this analysis isn't particularly likely to have actually taken place (why would two Town Neighbours deliberately lie and back Titus into a corner?), and the fact that it has basically no actual conclusions in it? Gives me a vibe of Scum trying to hold up thread presence rather than of Town actually thinking through what is happening.

[Nathann]

Titus would've known that two Townies generally don't gamethrow randomly like that. It could've been a gambit, but nothing past that.

However, even if we assume you did think Scum!Titus would've been panicking or something, this doesn't negate my main point - your post was there just to be there. What did you conclude from the event?

[Nathann]

Hmm. Kazyan,

do

you have any conclusions from the past however-many pages?

[Nathann]

Hmmm. Cold feet. Anything else on the table?

UNVOTE: Kazyan

Kyouko, what do you mean by that?

[Nathann]

What exactly did the IC claim to know?

There are only two Scum in the game, and nobody has Daytalk / no Encryptors.

[Nathann]

Hmmm. Cold feet. Anything else on the table?

UNVOTE: Kazyan

Kyouko, what do you mean by that?

Why cold feet?

I was going to bullshit something about suddenly getting a gut feeling they're Townie or something, but 1119.

[Nathann]

@Naathan do you ever have the same thoughts that someone could be scum for this?

Not really. If it was a newbie, I could

maybe

see the idea of them engaging in pointless mechanical talk to give the appearance of presence or something along those lines, but I doubt someone with as much as experience as Titus would do that. In my opinion, it's NAI.

but never knew it was allowed to alt slip or talk with ur main acc

It's not, but I don't think Koba does that intentionally.

[Nathann]

Okay, out of the people that have any votes on them, this is probably my preferred course of action: VOTE: Enchant Though I'd be lying if I said I have too much hope in this flipping Red at this point.

I don't want to vote Kazyan because of Obvious Reasons, and I'm still having Townie pings from Alice. That said, considering I'm not sure if I have a solid scumread on anyone anymore, and that it's ~11 hours on the clock, it's increasingly likely I will turn into Jolyne's double vote at some point. Also, I will be around for most of the rest of the Day, so.

[Nathann]

Additionally, I skimmed his iso in his 2 newbie games, 1 he is town, the other he is scum, and I feel like he as a person associates "vote-parking" with a scummy behavior from reading his iso here and in the 2 newbies. He opens the game vote parking here, and I feel like the reason he associates it with scummy behavior is because it is what he is inclined to do as scum.

Speaking of your case, I meant to ask this earlier but I forgot. What do you mean by "vote parking"? They did announce that they're gonna park their vote at one point, but they've actually been moving their vote around fairly often, at least in the beginning.

[Nathann]

Nobody wants Enchant, eh?

VOTE: AliceK

I still think this is a misflip. Should be Y-2 by my count.

[Nathann]

Nobody wants Enchant, eh?

VOTE: AliceK

I still think this is a misflip. Should be Y-2 by my count.

I was the only one on enchant by DGB's count

DGB's count was wrong, I was also voting them.

[Nathann]

I just realized that, assuming Alice appears to vote Kazyan, the hammer vote is in geraintm's hands. Uh.

[Nathann]

Maybe a dumb question, but what's so bad about yeeting a Vengeful?

Also uh, I think this is kind of a bad time to go hands off...

[Nathann]

DGB was okay, its call for votes is probably the Scummiest thing it's done. It just looked like Jolyne was thinking it could be a Mafia Vengeful, which is why I asked.

[Nathann]

I don’t think a Mafia Vengeful fits within Normal guidelines.

That's the point.

Andres, what do you think about my reasoning for moving off of Kazyan? Am I wrong to do it?

[Nathann]

I don't want to vote Kazyan because of Obvious Reasons, and I'm still having Townie pings from Alice.

You haven’t been explicit about your reasoning, so I have no idea.

I have, 1121.

Was there a reason you didn't ask me, then?

[Nathann]

I was planning to open with a vote on Enchant, but I get a feeling Kazyan is going to be a point of discussion until it's resolved.

Actually, why not. Kazyan, how you doing?

VOTE: Enchant

[Nathann]

Does the data from yesterday tell you anything?

[Nathann]

Re Kazyan's 1248: (Don't have time nor energy to read the entire thing in depth, so I'll be ctrl+F'ing names of interest.)

Why are Dwlee and Ythan actually your main targets for today?

For Dwlee, all I see is that Enchant looks like a designated misyeet for them, that they folded over their Townread of Kazyan when Kyouko suggested otherwise (where did this happen? I cannot find it), a relatively empty Townread of geraintm, and the dislike of 571. I don't think the first and the third one are really that Scummy, the second one I obviously don't get, and I don't think I get what's so bad about the fourth one either - could you elaborate? Oh, I guess the first paragraph within the spoiler also talks about Dwlee, but considering you said the same applies to me and that you Townread me, I assume it's a positive?

For Ythan, I'm not sure I found anything saying why you're Scumreading him specifically, as all the analysis around him seems to be based on whether he can be a partner to different players. Why is he a -2 on the Townosity scale?

Also, please do use post tags to link posts in the future, makes it much easier to follow along.

[Nathann]

Okay I thought that Kazyan was a restricted watcher but clearly that isn't the case if he is okay saying he wants to be eliminated. I'm a backup watcher and could have sworn that was what he was softing which is why I went along with it so hard but I think now it might be a red herring based on mod meta but I'm not sure what to make of what I thought was Kazyan's soft

For the record, I too thought Kazyan was softing a Watcher. At first I thought he was just softing

something

, then I realized there was the word "watch" there.

I also have some thoughts on Dwlee's claim, but considering Kazyan's request to Andres to talk about it, I'll keep my mouth shut until after that happens.

From Today, I'm getting some Townie pings from DGB, mainly its defense of Kazyan. I don't imagine Scum would swoop in and defend the suspected TPR. Unless they're partners, but then I don't imagine it would've been voting them yesterday. Though I am looking forward to seeing it do the ISOs.

Kyouko, did you change your mind on Kazyan in the meantime or do you just find Titus scummier?

[Nathann]

@Kazyan, do you have opinions on my read on geraintm? I felt it was similar to how you describe Dwlee's, curious to see what you think. Also, could you explain what you meant by Dwlee folding over their Townread of you when Kyouko suggested otherwise? Oh, you mean on Day 2?

I started thinking about it when Kyo said she thought the soft was scummy

What is this referring to again?

Also, I'm not buying the scumslip actually being >rand scumtell. It seems like a pretty reasonable guess for Town to make, considering everyone but one person checked in. Moonlogic does look okay, but I'm still overall unimpressed by Titus, so /shurg.

[Nathann]

Whoever Townreads Enchant (DGB I think? Anyone else?), can I get a tl;dr? Or maybe even a full read?

In the interest of making something happen, VOTE: Titus.

Was there a reason you didn't ask me, then?

Btw just to make sure that I respond to everything - you asked me what I thought of your reasoning, and I said that I didn’t know what your reasoning was. Do you expect to ask about everyone’s reasoning for everything? I don’t have time for that haha

I mean, I know one probably doesn't ask about literally

everything

. I guess I imagined it would've been a point of interest to you, since you originally voted Kazyan after I called them out, so I thought the person that first made you vote there changing their mind would've been something you'd ask about. Though writing this out, it doesn't actually seem scummy like I thought back then.

geraintm, I think I was on Kazyan's wagon too at one point.

[Nathann]

Whoever Townreads Enchant (DGB I think? Anyone else?), can I get a tl;dr

It's the emotions he's projecting.

Alright, why are the emotions Townie? Scum also gets emotional.

okay i claim watcher.

i watched IC and no one performed night actions on them

Why. Why are we now throwing out our claims for no reason?

I'm digging Kazyan's 1349. While it makes sense and I like Kazyan's thought process, I am not sure I fully agree. I guess I just don't often see Scum claiming a TPR for no reason, while under no pressure. Especially since, if a non-Ninja Scum got flipped, that would implicate GrandpaMo, since Watchers in a 2v11 with an IC probably imply Ninjas.

1 backup watcher, watcher, 1 ic, weak doc? is probably the setup here 1 ninja (+ mafia protective or 2 ninjas)

...Where is the idea of a Weak Doctor coming from, especially when we just had our IC die? Weak Doctor is basically a Cop, no way there's one in a 2v11. And why would Scum have a protective... Nothing here makes sense.

Why you think Weak Doc is here, when he didn't even try to heal blatant target?

uh because doc probably thought we were in a setup without ninja? and didnt expect the ic to be killed -- a kill on kazyan / me / andre would have been better here (as frame kills // pr reads ) IF ic was not the mechanic kill (for scum i would assume it is) . so i would think doc was on either them

Nobody had claimed Watched on Day 1. The hypothetical Doctor thinking whether there's a Ninja is completely irrelevant.

I know that earlier in the post I wrote how I don't see Scum claiming Watcher for no reason, but the posts I've read since are making me question if I should trust myself there.

[Nathann]

Vote Count 2.3

Titus

Nixie

(3)ssbm_Kyouko;Andresvmb;Nathann;

Whatever, I'll deal with you later.

Hey Titus, how ya doin'? VOTE: Titus

VOTE: Titus

im confused. i just die tonight lol

VOTE: Titus

both enchant, dgb, and titus all dont believe me.

literally all of the 3 summiest ppl in this game scumreading me kek

dgb if u think its me and titus, i can vote titus today . i dont see who im paired from town's pov if i was scum?

i miss alicek

Please tell me I'm miscounting this.

[Nathann]

I just rechecked, I don't think I am. And I was planning on unvoting because it seemed like the gamestate was happy with the wagon. Here's hoping I was wrong.

[Nathann]

Also -- If there is a real watcher in the game they probably watched me and now I am confirmed town. Now thinking about it, there is a world where Dwlee is scum. Like what is the point of claiming backup watcher if there is no watcher in the game. Honestly, if YOU ARE WATCHER, you should probably claim here with at least a confirmed.

A real Watcher would have no reason to watch you. And even if they did, it wouldn't make you confirmed Town in any way. Stop trying to rolefish.

[Nathann]

Whoever Townreads Enchant (DGB I think? Anyone else?), can I get a tl;dr? Or maybe even a full read?

In the interest of making something happen

, VOTE: Titus.

that was the reasoning on the vote on titus

You literally quoted the reasoning. Here, I'll even bold it for you.

I just rechecked, I don't think I am. And I was planning on unvoting because it seemed like the gamestate was happy with the wagon. Here's hoping I was wrong.

they posted this later

if i was betting, this would be where i would be looking, but it is pretty circumstantial....

Yes, I posted that later, after a certain amount of time had passed and there seemed to be zero resistance or someone freaking out over a Titus wagon. That is scummy because...?

[Nathann]

I'm thinking there's scum in DGB/GrandpaMo, I was even wondering if it's possible that's our team. Because two people who didn't even bother to check how many votes Titus is on, when it was probably very obvious she was around Y-1 range? My gut is going against both of those, though.

VOTE: Ythan?

Pedit: nice timing. We got any elaboration behind that theory?

[Nathann]

Also -- If there is a real watcher in the game they probably watched me and now I am confirmed town. Now thinking about it, there is a world where Dwlee is scum. Like what is the point of claiming backup watcher if there is no watcher in the game. Honestly, if YOU ARE WATCHER, you should probably claim here with at least a confirmed.

A real Watcher would have no reason to watch you. And even if they did, it wouldn't make you confirmed Town in any way. Stop trying to rolefish.

Oh. I thought watcher was like tracker wack.

But -- isn't optimal for watcher to out regardless? Wouldn't that make Dwlee confirmed? Like why doesn't Dwlee die at night?

Even if you thought Watcher was like a Tracker, how does that make you confirmed Town?

And no. If there is a Watcher (which I extremely highly doubt, but let's pretend), them outing does nothing.

[Nathann]

...But here's the snippet in the note pile that you're probably the most interested in: "It's super interesting to me that there were four doubts on GMo's claim, but only one vote, and that vote came from Titus (who flipped town). I was trying to unconfuse myself at the time, but DGB and Enchant are, like, confident that GMo was BS'ing, but they held off voting! DGB even went for Titus, while telling people to vote for GMo, like it was trying to score that Titus miselim."

Hm. The "not believing GranpaMo's claim, not voting him, but keeping the door open towards voting him" is what I'd imagine Scum would be doing at a strong but dubious power role claim from a suspected Townie.

I was going to write out how I'd imagine then there being a Ninja, but I think it's also possible Scum would know that Town!GrandpaMo is lying if they have

no

Ninjas - up to two Watchers in a 2v11 with an IC is extremely improbable.

[Nathann]

Then why is Dwlee backup watcher?

This mod is notorious for putting in red herrings that do nothing and serve no purpose. I'm not clearing anyone for claiming non-confirmable things. I wouldn't be surprised if there's a Mafia Backup Watcher with no Watchers in the game. (I don't think Dwlee is Scum, but as illustration.)

[Nathann]

Oh, there was also that other time I hit E-2 near the end of Day 1, which was when DGB switched from their vanity self-vote to a vote on me. No one switched to me thereafter, despite the time pressure giving everyone an excellent alibi. I'd buy that one scum was on the Alice wagon (or gera sitting out?), but two would have been very unlikely, so that's a bunch of +town for everyone on the Alice wagon and the opposite for everyone on the Kazyan wagon at that time.

Explain like I'm 5, why is voting Alice +Town? Or rather, why would you have expected Scum on you? Because of the soft, or?

[Nathann]

if i was betting, this would be where i would be looking, but it is pretty circumstantial....

Actually, what was the point of this? You obviously thought I was Scummy, if there a reason you seem afraid of voting me?

[Nathann]

It's less than 24 hours before deadline. We're all starting to worry about trusting gera with the hammer vote. Word on the street is that Kazyan has a role. What do you do? Sit where you are? Heck, maybe, but I wouldn't trust both scum to hang tight.

I was going to speculate about what Scum!me would do, then I thought how I definitely wouldn't do what I had done, which is awkwardly back off Kazyan because hurr durr power role soft. Which doesn't help me much, but

then

I realized Dwlee did pretty much the same thing, so. Probably somewhat +Town for them?

[Nathann]

My brain is currently swinging between "Kyouko thought Kazyan was scum, and she's

dead

" and "they are being so Townie though". What other major reads did she have? I skimmed the last portion of her ISO, all I saw was Titus hate, and we know how that turned out.

[Nathann]

Y-2. I don't want any more "accidents".

[Nathann]

Wait, I'm stupid. I was thinking of voting DGB, and then I ended up not doing it, while thinking I did.

VOTE: DGB

That

is Y-2.

[Nathann]

Wait, I'm stupid. I was thinking of voting DGB, and then I ended up not doing it, while thinking I did.

VOTE: DGB

That

is Y-2.

Why is DGB Scum?

Atrocious vote on Titus with no callout for the Y-1, promising content but delivering pretty much none of it so far, and what I wrote in 1424 - throwing shade on the claimed power role but not wanting to be the one to vote it first (before figuring out whether anyone else would want to join them) is a decent move for Scum to make there, assuming GrandpaMo's Town.

Why is DGB Town?

[Nathann]

I don't think it's likely. But I'm not going to be giving it a pass the whole game just because it did a wacky play towards the end of Day 1, especially if it wasn't likely for its wagon to actually gain traction - I'd have to go back to check if the last part is true, but I at least remember Jolyne was against it.

[Nathann]

I don't think it's likely. But I'm not going to be giving it a pass the whole game just because it did a wacky play towards the end of Day 1, especially if it wasn't likely for its wagon to actually gain traction - I'd have to go back to check if the last part is true, but I at least remember Jolyne was against it.

You don’t think it’s likely, but you’re happy pushing it to E-2 while not really explaining your reasoning, after we pushed Titus quickly and incorrectly?

I don't think it's likely, no. But that one play doesn't make its whole ISO. And when there are reasons that make the slot Scum as well, I can't throw everything in the trash based on "but it did this funny thing on Day 1!!" I explained my reasoning, and I expect that the Town will be more careful around votes now. Next time someone does the shit that happened yesterday, it's an instant policy yeet the next Day, I think we can agree on that.

I think it's kind of funny how you're throwing the shade at me for wagoning someone after yesterday when we rushed and misyeeted, when the person I'm wagoning had a lot to do with the fact that the wagon happened the way it did.

[Nathann]

Are you forgetting that Jolyne was consistently reading me as Town too?

[Nathann]

I’m going to take a guess and say that the Scum are all in {Kazyan, Nathann, DW}.

That’s my prediction.

From my perspective, there were 4 votes that sat on Kazyan for a while there D1, and it didn’t go over the edge. Instead, AliceK was executed. At least 3 of those votes are from Town: {Me, Jolyne, Kyouko}. It’s remarkable that we all agreed there, with Ythan as the fourth voter, but an alternative wagon formed. That’s really fascinating.

This holds

some

water if Kazyan is Scum, but your PoE makes no sense if they're Town. Both me and Dwlee realized they're a power role, jumping off from them in order to wagon a lurker that half the game was scumreading and that could've been easy to get the next Day is awful play. Turn a blind eye towards the "soft", keep voting there anyway, get a free claim.

[Nathann]

Are you forgetting that Jolyne was consistently reading me as Town too?

Koba can make mistakes they’re not infallible. Your votes have been awful thus far - you deserve to be reconsidered.

Which one of my votes are you having problems with? My GrandpaMo Day 1 vote, which you were more than happy to scream should be killed because he lied about his role? The Alice vote, which I voted solely because of the deadline pressure, IC thinking they're Scum, and not wanting to vote the power role soft, and who I kept saying the whole time is Town and that we should try elsewhere? Or maybe the Titus vote, which was meant as a pressure/pls-play-the-game vote, and it turned into a disaster while I wasn't looking because people either can't count or are pretending not to?

[Nathann]

She was somewhat present but she was largely underwhelming. A vote can be a good kick to get someone to produce more readable content.

[Nathann]

All I see are a bunch of excuses and a lot of dead Town. If your vote for AliceK was truly driven by deadline pressure, why didn’t you vote Kazyan earlier? That reasoning makes no sense.

I voted Kazyan earlier. Then I realized they softed a power role, and tried to give them an opening where I would Townread them for whatever they said and jump off. But right after I posted that, I got a headache and forgot about this game - I think around this time you jumped onto the wagon and it started gaining traction, I think I unvoted some time later, but I don't remember exactly when without checking. The reason why I wasn't voting Kazyan after that was because they were softing power role, and I tried to build a new wagon on Enchant, that failed.

[Nathann]

@Nathann DW has unvoted DGB. What do you make of that?

Considering they didn't say anything, nothing.

And do you think Town softs a PR there, avoids execution, and then doesn’t get NK’ed but Kyouko [VT] does? What does that tell you?

Either that Scum doesn't care or believe about power role claims, or that Kazyan is Scum.

VOTE: Kazyan

Fine. We can get a claim.

I'm not sold on the Watchers necessarily having scum since [something about mod wifom], and frankly your push on me is awful, but I guess you have a point.

Do you want me to respond to anything before I go crash?

[Nathann]

For the record, "your push on me is awful" =/= "I think you're Scum for it". At least not right now.

[Nathann]

So far I've heard that I've had awful votes (you only took issues with one, which I think I explained well considering you didn't respond) and not being willing to mindlessly lockTown DGB because of one Townie thing they did on Day 1. What else do you have? Genuine question.

[Nathann]

Both of your End of Day votes are on Town, and I don’t like your reasoning for your vote on AliceK, and you seem too accepting of a soft you really should be more skeptical of by now.

I think telling me that I'm scummy for having my yesterday's vote end up being on Town at the End of Day is hugely ignoring the circumstances of how that wagon went down and I think you're better than that.

I still don't see the issue of "voting a lurker when it's between a lurker and a PR soft", though I reckon we're not gonna agree here.

And sure, I like to leave PR claims alone as long as possible. And they were being Townie, so /shrug.

[Nathann]

I think telling me that I'm scummy for having my yesterday's vote end up being on Town at the End of Day is hugely ignoring the circumstances of how that wagon went down and I think you're better than that.

That’s clearly not what I’ve done but okay.

You told me a few posts ago that I'm scummy because both my EoD votes were on Town?

[Nathann]

And sure, I like to leave PR claims alone as long as possible. And they were being Townie, so /shrug.

A claimed VT died with three players softing or claiming Roles, and then a player reveals they lied about their Role, but you largely ignore all of that and vote DGB despite agreeing that their ISO is messy and some of the activity could be coming from Town. Why should I TR you?

The Backup Watcher is useless without a Watcher death (might be useless period if there's no Watcher or if Scum has two Ninjas), GrandpaMo does things like that as Town (if the meta they said is to be trusted, which I assume people don't blatantly lie about even when Scum) and they're yeetbait if Town, and Kazyan opened the day effortposting which didn't seem like Scum to me. So yes, the three PR softs/claims all had reasons for either not being dead or seeming Town, and I voted DGB who kept promising content, not delivering it, placing awkwardly around claims, and not announcing its votes which did what it did. What about this is supposed to be problematic? The "some of their ISO could be Town" is laughable, show me a Scum for which that isn't the case.

[Nathann]

Yes, upon your prod, I'm changing my mind on Kazyan and wondering why they aren't dead, but I still stand behind thinking that they're Townie on play.

[Nathann]

I'm thinking there's scum in DGB/GrandpaMo, I was even wondering if it's possible that's our team. Because two people who didn't even bother to check how many votes Titus is on, when it was probably very obvious she was around Y-1 range? My gut is going against both of those, though.

VOTE: Ythan?

Pedit: nice timing. We got any elaboration behind that theory?

And why are you voting Ythan here? Like this makes no sense.

Because I have been suspicious of Ythan for, I don't know... the majority of this goddamn game?

I think telling me that I'm scummy for having my yesterday's vote end up being on Town at the End of Day is hugely ignoring the circumstances of how that wagon went down and I think you're better than that.

That’s clearly not what I’ve done but okay.

You told me a few posts ago that I'm scummy because both my EoD votes were on Town?

The feeling I have that you’re not Scum is not just because of that. You’re reducing to that because that’s easy to do.

You're joking, right? I didn't reduce your Scumread to that, 1494 was me responding point by point.

[Nathann]

I'm defending myself because your push is bad and it feels like you keep misrepping me (even now with the landing on Town comment). I'm not attacking you, I think you're Town. And yeah, I was able to recognize that you have a point and changed my mind accordingly, fuck that I guess.

[Nathann]

How have I misrepresented you? Have your end of day votes not been on Town? Is that not an accurate summation of where your votes have landed?

It's correct in the most literal sense but again is missing the context. I don't see fault in my Alice vote but I see we're not gonna agree there, but saying what you're saying about my Titus vote is absolutely missing important context. She was quickhammered while I was away. Yes, my vote helped build that wagon, but it was never intended as an "I want to kill Titus" vote, it was meant as a pressure vote to kick her into higher gear. It was not supposed to kill her, and if it were up to me, it wouldn't have had as I was going to unvote when I realized there was basically no resistance.

I wasn't given a chance to change my mind before she died. There's an important difference in having opportunity to change your mind or not - hell, you were on that wagon yourself, but putting it on you would be questionable at best. Do you seriously consider my vote on her wagon to hold the same "weight" as would a vote on a Townie wagon that happened properly? The difference is kind of blaring.

[Nathann]

I also think DGB and Enchant are Town, and you voted one earlier today and pushed the other one towards the end of D1. Is that not where you have voted? Or what you’ve argued for?

Sure, I find both of them Scummy. If you have the "whoever is Scumreading someone that I find Town is automatically suspicious" mindset, then I don't know what to say.

Now if you truly believe DGB is Scum, why would you vote Kazyan? They are certainly not aligned as Scum.

I know my reads aren't perfect, and I never said I was 100% on DGB being scum. I can recognize when I may be wrong, and when it's better for the overall game to push against my own reads - I'm still reading Kazyan as Town on play, but I now believe getting their claim has value, because I'm not reading them as Town by Night events now.

And being Townie on play is far more important than their Role soft. There’s something that just stinks about your play and I can’t fully put my finger on it. Like your vote should be on Ythan if anything.

Sure, is not getting killed despite softing also more important than their Townie play? Or do you just believe that I should find it more important?

[Nathann]

I suddenly got more confident towards the end of Day 1 once I figured out a fakeclaim: Supersaint. All I'd have to do was spin some stuff about how 92 was actually letting the mod know I understood how the role worked after a bunch of PM'd "are you sure this is Normal?" kind of questions

The actual joke here is that Supersaint is, in fact, not Normal.

[Nathann]

@Andres, what's your thoughts on Enchant? I get the idea behind "DGB did this one Townie thing on Day 1", but (I think?) you're Town on Enchant, and I don't see why?

[Nathann]

VOTE: Ythan

I get a feeling this is a game where the Town is cannibalizing each other while Scum is chilling on the sidelines. And Kazyan's explanations just feel too convoluted for Scum. Maybe it's stupid to

then

be voting off-wagon, but whatever, I'm still waiting on GranpaMo and DGB to impress anyway.

[Nathann]

I went to check that post out, and me/Dwlee deflated that wagon before Enchant got a chance to post, they never had the opportunity to force the wagon onto Y-1.

@Enchant, what'd your reads looking like?

[Nathann]

I would appreciate ideas. I don't care if they're wrong, I need something to show your thought process.

[Nathann]

Not Voting(6)geraintm;Ythan;DrippingGoofball;GrandpaMo;Enchant;Dwlee99;

I find it kind of depressing how Andres said he wants more discussion, but almost nothing is happening. That vote count is just sad.

@DGB, do you have any other thoughts other than those two being Town? You said you were gonna do ISOs yesterday, how's that looking?

[Nathann]

I'm thinking back to Andres' 1459. I'm going to assume Andres is Town, and I'm going to assume that I'm not wrong on Kazyan being Town. If those two are the case, then I think it points at Ythan being Scum. I'm not sure if it would make sense for there to be an all-Town wagon on Kazyan, with both Scum deciding to pile on a lurker who was much more likely to be a VT. There's going to be natural skepticism towards those on the wagon, and I don't think Alice was a huge threat to the Scumteam. So at least one Scum off their wagon, likely on the counter.

I guess the above is assuming geraintm is Town too, but with a decent amount of other people giving me bad vibes, and knowing there's only town Scum in that game, that might be an okay assumption for now. Or Kazyan's just Scum and I'm being stupid.

Does anyone in the game Townread Ythan? If so, I do wanna hear why.

[Nathann]

I'm also curious where did GrandpaMo's Scumread of Enchant go. Once he saw Titus was dead, he said he thinks Enchant is Scum if Titus isn't, and Today it's been just role talk and not much else. Not saying I'd expect him to blindly vote Enchant and do nothing else, but. It's weird there was no mention of it at all.

[Nathann]

I think 1609/1610 are Town!indicative for Enchant. Or rather I don't see the Scum motivation in unvoting there. This Town is already lethargic, which in my opinion makes it more likely that someone will just hammer Ythan, and of course accidents always happen. Coupled with the following votes on GrandpaMo, why lower the pressure off Ythan and bring more attention to yourself in pressuring someone else?

Of course, the above is assuming that Enchant isn't Ythan's partner. I'd reckon they're not, since if they were, I'd assume they wouldn't have voted Ythan in the first place. Especially with me on the front of the wagon, who they could easily discredit, since both Andres and geraintm are having doubts about me.

[Nathann]

I could vote Ythan. I read the ISO - it’s very possible that the slot is Scum.

What about his ISO is making you think so now? Earlier on in the game, you said you're not sure if that's a Scum!ISO. Now, I know you said that some ~40 pages ago, but I don't get the feeling Ythan put out much content since. What's pinging you this time around, just the lurkiness or something concrete?

[Nathann]

i think if ur town > then enchant is just the scum here

Also, to make it clear that I am asking - what happened to this, GrandpaMo?

[Nathann]

my fear is that my reads are all wrong, scum think they can lead me on a merry dance and then eliminate me at the end of the game

Also, I am starting to really get annoyed here... If I remember right, your scumreads are me. And nobody else. I'm back to being pressured by absolutely nobody. What does this even mean here? Nobody is going after me, and especially not with you or behind you. And you're doing approximately nothing to either see if you're wrong or me or to try to eliminate me? Just what

are

you doing in this game?

[Nathann]

My early read on Ythan was based on tone, and what seemed like a laid-back attitude.

Don't think this should be taken as very AI, didn't Jolyne say that's just his personality?

Oh, here's another thought - as much as I am annoyed at geraintm, I don't think he's Scum, unless his partner is someone widely Townread. I'm looking at 1620 and seeing that he's the only person (minus Ythan, who's lowkey not even playing) not voting. That got me thinking, if his partner was in danger, surely he'd be voting somewhere or posturing towards a vote somewhere. The only person he's posturing towards voting is me, and at the time where Andres had already given up on that push. I'm guessing Scum!him would know that I am not the most likely of counterwagons to happen.

[Nathann]

I’ll stick to {Enchant, DW} as Town. I was skeptical of DW but I need to trust that Koba can read there better than I can. Kazyan is the wild card for me.

Don't want to be that person, but Koba remover their Locktown™ Status shortly before death. Don't think they're Scum for it, I'm Townreading them myself, just have to point it out.

Pretty much everything that Kazyan's did since early Day 2 has seemed Townie to me, why are they a wildcard to you again? Other than the whole "not dying as a softed TPR" bit.

[Nathann]

i think ythan is a good info kill

What happened to your Enchant read and what info does Ythan's flip give us?

[Nathann]

UNVOTE: Ythan

If GrandpaMo posts again without responding to me, I'm just going to vote there.

[Nathann]

The case is I haven't been sitting on the sidelines, I've actually been voting people in trying to get a read on them, and I changed my mind on Titus once I realized the wagon movement. How are the rest of you even letting an obvscum like me live.

I still don't think he's Scum, I'm still just incredibly annoyed.

[Nathann]

I can't say I'm thrilled that we have what I think is an 8/9 consensus on Ythan being scum (would scum bus their partner here?)

This doesn't prove Ythan is Town, by the way, even if it were true (I don't remember if literally everyone expressed a scumread there). In a Scum!Ythan world, it's not implausible that Scum doesn't want to bus, but also doesn't want to risk being seen as the one persom defending their partner, so they throw a Scumread and hope the pressure shifts elsewhere.

[Nathann]

Speaking of Ythan, I'm not... impressed with his content since returning. The only actual stance I see is the GrandpaMo vote, almost everything else can be interpreted one way or another on how he's reading other people, in my opinion. Like, I can't tell if he Scumreads geraintm or just disagrees with him.

But GrandpaMo is equally being... Scummy right now, so what do I know.

[Nathann]

idk atp i stopped reading this game after day 1 .

Then why did you claim that Ythan is a good info flip? What information does his flip give us, especially as you apparently stopped reading this game?

[Nathann]

Ythan, do you have any other concrete reads other than GrandpaMo being Scum?

[Nathann]

Nathan, when you're done talking to GMo, I'm willing to drop the hammer. We could wait for a claim, but I wouldn't trust it at this point.

Alright. I'm not sure what I'm expecting to get out of him anyway. I want to say that I'm above doing a yeet that seems to be because a player is acting funny, but I'd be lying I was sure about him flipping green.

For the record, I'm still not exactly satisfied with Ythan's reads (some more elaboration on most of them would be nice), but if we're set on yeeting GrandpaMo, that might be better left for tomorrow.

[Nathann]

I'm trying to figure out how likely it is that we're correct on the PoE of {DGB, Ythan, GrandpaMo} and there's bussing in

some

direction there, versus having Scum outside of it. Can't say I've got a solid conclusion, though.

VOTE: GrandpaMo

What were the thoughts behind this vote?

[Nathann]

I will pretend I didn't start feeling a decent amount of paranoia about Andres during the Night.

Anyway, I'm wondering if I should go back to the "either Kazyan is Scum, or there's Scum on their counterwagon" theory, which currently boils down to 1 in Kazyan/Ythan. And I

want

to say it's Ythan, but I'm not sure if I love that hammer from Kazyan after I basically said I'm still questioning GrandpaMo. Though I am still expecting more elaborate stuff from Ythan.

And yeah, more elaborateness from DGB on its vote switches would be nice. Further than "I keep going back and forth".

Kazyan, have you prepared another wall for us during the Night?

[Nathann]

Kazyan (4)ssbm_Kyouko;Jolyne;Andresvmb;Ythan;

@Dwlee, I was thinking of this vote count, after it is when the Alice wagon took off. It also stayed in my memory since Andres talked about it at some point. Though fair point that DGB ended up on the Kazyan wagon later on, I'll take a look at it at some point tomorrow.

[Nathann]

I have regrets.

Morning friends.

VOTE: Kazyan

Are you two allergic to discussing your reads in any sort of depth?

[Nathann]

Take the heat off, no. Wait for heat to move elsewhere, maybe.

I do think that if we flip Ythan Today and he's green, we very likely Just Lose Tomorrow. But I'm not sure if there's a better flip...

Kazyan, you played in that game you linked, right? How come you only now thought to compare the ISOs?

[Nathann]

If you have a question ask it.

Okay, why is he your top choice for Scum again?

[Nathann]

This is a semi-prodge, but seeing Ythan still isn't here...

VOTE: Ythan

I'll put actual energy into reading what I've missed later tonight. Thoughts from skimming are that geraintm is Town, that Enchant is worrying me, and that my instincts say Kazyan is Townie, but that I should check their Scumgame to see if they're prone to faking emotion.

I'd appreciate if you stopped self-voting. I am not in the mood for another oopsie hammer.

[Nathann]

Okay, I lied, my energy is completely sapped, I'll do my best to be here tomorrow morning. Agreed with Dwlee on the above. In the meantime:

The biggest info flip right now would be GMo, so that we can properly read all of those reactions to him. Or maybe gera, with the info being "wtf is gera doing", but we don't need to know that to win the game yet.

I hate the justification "info flip". I know if comes from Town sometimes, like from GrandpaMo Yesterday, but still. What did you learn when GrandpaMo flipped green?

Probably my biggest problem with Kazyan in geraintm's analysis is the vote switchiness between GrandpaMo and Ythan. Though they were upfront about their PoE, I guess... I'll think about it when I manage the brainpower.

[Nathann]

Nope, still feeling like crap. I'll use the "I'm voting Ythan and he hasn't responded about his Kazyan vote yet" excuse.

Dislike the "no hammer confirms Scum between us" since not every Scum (I'd even say the majority) would have the guts to quickhammer there, knowing they'd be under pressure because of that Tomorrow. I want to say that the conviction is Townie, though?

Kazyan, is this something you'd do as Scum? Pull a self vote then argue conclusions because of not being hammered?

[Nathann]

I asked. And if you have that much conviction that they're Scum, surely you can put together a short case and not make me have to go through your ISO to hunt for it?

[Nathann]

Like, I currently have literally zero idea why you're voting Kazyan. And maybe that's on me. Maybe. But you could help me out and try to actually convince me on why they're Scum?

[Nathann]

AliceK (7)Titus; GrandpaMo; Kazyan; Dwlee99; Nathann; Enchant; Jolyne;

Kazyan (4)ssbm_Kyouko; Andresvmb; Ythan; DrippingGoofball;

DrippingGoofball (1)geraintm;

Dwlee99 (1)AliceK;

@Kazyan, I don't think Kazyan/Ythan is the team. I am guessing there's one between the two, based on the analysis that Andres put out at some point. I don't think that's the team, though I'll probably have a more concrete opinion here after i go through Ythan's ISO regarding you.

Based on the EoD1 vote count, if Ythan is Scum, the partner is within {Dwlee, Enchant, maaaybe DGB} - since I think it's very likely there was at least one Scum on the main wagon, with a slight chance of it being DGB since it did jump on the wagon late.

If Kazyan is Scum, I'd look at {Dwlee, Enchant, again maaaybe DGB}, if Scum!DGB was feeling ballsy to jump on their partner late, though I think this scenario is decently unlikely.

Considering I have a Townreads on Dwlee, I'm wondering if the better idea would be to simply yeet Enchant, since they fit as partner to both Kazyan/Ythan, but that's assuming that my read of there being one between those two is right, and that my Townread of Dwlee is right, and I feel like it's past the point in the game where I can be making calls on that many assumptions... And I would need to look at Enchant's other votes to see if they make some of the teams unlikely.

[Nathann]

Skimming through NK15's ISO, then through a few pages, Enchant was on Ythan for a bit on Day 3, after I voted, but then jumped off when the wagon got to Y-1, and started pushing GrandpaMo instead. Nooot a good look if Ythan is red, i think.

[Nathann]

Spoiler:

I thought it might be a little scummy to ask a probing question over something that clearly doesn't matter, but then I realized that a "peck" at someone hasn't historically come from scum in my games--Lunar Martian in Mini Normal 2187, or T3's initial questions in Not Quite Normal Multiball. And then you gave a reasonable answer, so now I'm not getting any scum vibes from you.

Don't love this on gut. The town read possible pocket attempt at the end particularly but the back and forth at the beginning and multiple meta citations as well.

VOTE: Kazyan

Why the self-vote?

It's an RVS gag? Weird question.

I think it's a stretch to call that a weird question.

Oh....this game is going to be weird from what I've read above.

Will post more later.

This is post 20

VOTE: geraintm

This is a good point. geraintm, can you elaborate on "weird"?

Calling this a good point when there's no context seems "weird" but Gramps is already a top suspect of mine. This can be tabled for later.

I feel potentially conf biased and am going to take a break.

Also, should we consolidate wagons?

On second thought this is actually a weird question.

I like that we have things to talk about already besides the IC, though I'm still kinda in the phase where I only know anything about Jolyne's role and my role. So, I'm going to watch and reread for a while in order to differentiate people in my mind.

This feels to me like not purely fluff but a subtle suggestion that you are uninformed town. And other than that it is fluff which makes it stand out.

I could do Kazyan but I'd rather not do a lurker (Enchant) over him or Gramps d1. I'm judging them on content they posted and that's not likely to change going forward but a lurker will either do something later or be a better target if he's still lurking later imo.

If you're judging them on the content they posted, why do you think it's not gonna change going forward? Your recent posts seem to be going through Kazyan's ISO, and judging by 679, you're still only on 92, which feels like a bit of an early call?

@Dwlee, what changed your mind on me? And on Kazyan, why not.

I mean I'm looking at their content now and tomorrow they'll have more of the same. It's helpful but I think the difference between a lurker as a potential wagon is larger between days 1 and 2 if that makes sense.

If we're going to have to actually hunt scum instead of relying on a cop/tracker/whatever to tell us who the bad guys are, I am worried.

Like is this genuine? I'm not in the headspace to judge this right now I just feel confirmation biased looking at the iso.

Morning friends.

VOTE: Kazyan

Went through Ythan's ISO and searched for Kazyan's name, and pulled out whatever seemed like giving an opinion on things. (Forgive if I missed things, it's late and I'm phoneposting.) It seems to me like most of this is not liking individual posts? With not much evolution as the game progressed.

So uh, Ythan, can you help me out now? I went through your ISO, and sure enough I found you calling out some of Kazyan's posts are Scummy, but a lot of it feels barebones, and definitely not how I'd expect someone to have talked about their main Scumread at this point of the game. So could you elaborate or tldr your read/trajectory on them, or link if I've missed it?

[Nathann]

Why do people keep hammering wagons when I'm clearly still sorting them?

Here's a take, Enchant's hammer looks bad regardless of what Ythan flips. Though I also don't have much hope for the game if he is green. Here's hoping.

[Nathann]

I saw I had an email about a new PM that said "Mini Normal 2232 Day 5", and I thought how Scum has some nerve to kill someone other than me. But no deaths, combined with the Strongman flip, makes me wonder if we have a protective.

Anyway. VOTE: Enchant. Convince me why we shouldn't kill you.

[Nathann]

I don't think Ythan's a partner with geraintm, if we needed more reasons to Townread him. The shitpush on him early on didn't feel S/S.

I want to say the same for Kazyan, I believe Ythan was voting him during some parts of Day 1 when it tipped their wagon much closer to execution than necessary, though I'll review that at some point (irl) today to make sure.

The other thing that would be good to look at is whether DGB/Ythan makes any sense - mainly for its jumpiness between the two.

Enchant seems like the most likely partner despite all that, though.

Oh, another thought - Scum was informed of something. If we do have a protective, that might explain why Kazyan, the Softed Power Role kept not dying.

[Nathann]

I want to say the same for Kazyan, I believe Ythan was voting them* during some parts of Day 1 when it tipped their wagon much closer to execution than necessary, though I'll review that at some point (irl) today to make sure.

Bah, sorry.

[Nathann]

No really, if you wait long explaination, i don't have it.

I wanted to actually see some kinda thought process that would show me that you're not a part of the informed minority who knows everyone's alignments and therefoee has to be making everything up? Like seriously, what even are your reads right now?

[Nathann]

I believe the Bulletproof claim. I dislike the fact that it was claimed, since if Scum thought there was a Doctor, they could've potentially tried to attack geraintm again, which would've gained us an extra yeet, but whatever.

[Nathann]

It doesh't prove i am partnered with him.
But proves Nathann is. Unvote on quickhammer/Why you hammered while i sorting daaaaaaaaaaaah!

That was the third time this game someone dropped a hammer on a player while I was not ready. Try to push me as a Ythan buddy, we'll see how well that ends for you.

[Nathann]

The only thing making me wary here, if geraintm was the actual kill target last Night, that both Dwlee and I were to be left alive. And both of us Wanted to kill Enchant. Would Enchant really not try to kill either of us?

Meh, not getting lost in the wine when they're blatantly Scummy as they are right now.

[Nathann]

I'm just saying, try to turn this into a 1v1. I haven't been in one in a hot minute, I'm down.

Anyway, not sure what we're even doing here. Other than associates and geraintm just being Townie in general, I don't think the nokill into Bulletproof claim is something he does as Scum. (pedit: and admitting it was 1-shot. Town.) Dwlee and Kazyan are Townie, and I believe both have pretty Townie associates with fliped Scum. (Though I will recheck the Kazyan vote from Ythan.) That leaves Enchant and DBG. Yeet in those two, get a free toaster, etc.

[Nathann]

I had a theory that Enchant was Bulletproof, not you.

Why were you thinking there's a Bulletproof in the first place?

[Nathann]

Having lazily skimmed the very late part of Day 1: Ythan's vote on Kazyan doesn't feel like S/S, and I was reminded of DGB's "vote me out!!" shtick, which kind of still rings Townie. So, does anyone have any good arguments for why we shouldn't yeet Enchant here, who we should yeet instead of them, and why?

[Nathann]

@DGB, why is Dwlee Scum?

[Nathann]

Skipping the Day right now is pointless, especially since we have a pretty solid yeet target right now. Skipping it Tomorrow to go from 4 to 3 might have some merit, but not right now.

@DGB, I think you said earlier this game that you're Townreading Dwlee, and that you Townread them often? Is there anything this game that they're not doing or doing differently or something?

[Nathann]

It's hard to make a case against players you judge to be less townie than the others.

I know it's hard, but here's the thing. I think it's most likely Enchant to be the last Scum.

However, if they're not, I'm thinking it's between you/Dwlee, I currently find you more likely, and quite frankly I'm worried you're setting up a Dwlee push. Your posts around Dwlee/Enchant give me paranoia because it almost feels like you know Enchant is fipping Town, you're not doing anything to stop that yeet but you're not doing anything to kill them either because you don't want that blood on your hands. And then you will use that to vote Dwlee out.

Of course, I could be completely wrong and it's actually Dwlee here. Which is partly why I'm wondering if you could be more transparent with your thoughts here. If Enchant is a miss, someone will be having to make the call.

[Nathann]

I see that Jolyne is online. I wonder if they're yelling at us in the dead thread.

[Nathann]

1660 - "DGB wagon is rank trash." Keep defending your partner there, friend

This part interested me, so I speedskimmed from about where Andres and I fought to this point. I was expecting that that quote would be anti-partnery, as in a vacuum it struck me more as a weak defense / buddying of Town than a partner defense. But in context, it was at the time where the three leading wagons were Ythan/GrandpaMo/DGB. So, in a theoretical Ythan/DGB team, not much Ythan can do there...

Actually, DGB was voting Ythan at the time. If we assume Ythan!Scum and DGB!Town, why wouldn't Ythan vote DGB? If it gets voted out, better for him, a Townie that suspects him is out. Instead, he voted GrandpaMo, who was also voting DGB. Though looking through GrandpaMo's ISO, he was

also

suspecting Ythan, and did vote him shortly after. So this isn't a slam-dunk like I wanted.

[Nathann]

I didn't read everything in depth but I actually expect if it's DGB that DGB would have a kind of grandiose interaction with ythan based on dead silence III that just ended. In my skimming I didn't find anything though so I'm pretty sure it's just enchant

Could you elaborate on this a bit? And I see that Enchant was Town in that game, alive late into it, and their posts actually seem to be

trying

to play the game, as opposed to their last Day here which honestly feels like lolcatting to me. How do they compare elsewise?

[Nathann]

My biggest problems with DGB is the somewhat lack of transparency (which by itself isn't Scummy but my god it does it make solving that much more difficult) and the convenient posts around Ythan/GrandpaMo.

[Nathann]

So you think Ythan's vote on Kazyan at the end of Day 1 was also distancing?

[Nathann]

Except that Day 1 vote was at (I believe) less than 24 hours left, it brought Kazyan up to 4 votes, and at the time there was no counterwagon. I don't think that can be classified as a vote that "doesn't endanger".

Granted, it was after Dwlee and I unvoted there, so maybe an argument could be made it wasn't

that

much of a dangerous vote, but still - your last post (where you plainly dismiss it as "Day 1 rarely matters" while not really looking at the context or timing of the vote) doesn't give me the feeling you're trying to actually figure out if you're wrong or not.

[Nathann]

Why do you seem utterly disinterested in trying to figure the game out?

[Nathann]

I'm hearing Andres's voice who's telling me this is too wacky to be Scum, and that means it's bed time for me.

Kazyan, why do you want to discuss DGB Today if you're already set on yeeting Enchant?

[Nathann]

Then this post.

I was wrong. Some of you are dumber than a bag of hammers

I'm risking an insult from geraintm here, but what is so bad about that post? Other than the obvious mistake of the number of Scum alive.

[Nathann]

For me to be scum would mean we have an IC and 1-shot BP and nothing else against a strongman + ?? AND that I bussed ythan day 3 while there was a counterwagon on a player I had plausible reason to think was scum

I haven't claimed yet, why are you assuming?

[Nathann]

Damn. Nice work Dwlee, you had me fooled.

Thanks for the game!