Mini Normal 2209: Musicals II [Endgame]
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InsidiousLemons Mafia Scum
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InsidiousLemons Mafia Scum
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I don't follow.[/quote]In post 8, InsidiousLemons wrote:it's interesting to me that it's specified that at least one person has received a VT PM because per the normal guidelines, there HAS to be at least one VT. wacky role interplay?
according to the rules of the normal queue, every game must contain at least one vanilla townie. most games contain more than one. it's just weird to me that it's specified in the first post when it's obvious that there is a VT in play -- it suggests to me that the setup may be unusually PR-heavy, or have something like a group of masons or neighbours.-
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InsidiousLemons Mafia Scum
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according to the rules of the normal queue, every game must contain at least one vanilla townie. most games contain more than one. it's just weird to me that it's specified in the first post when it's obvious that there is a VT in play -- it suggests to me that the setup may be unusually PR-heavy, or have something like a group of masons or neighbours.In post 12, boxxy wrote:
I don't follow.In post 8, InsidiousLemons wrote:it's interesting to me that it's specified that at least one person has received a VT PM because per the normal guidelines, there HAS to be at least one VT. wacky role interplay?
EBWOP -- fixed formatting-
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InsidiousLemons Mafia Scum
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greetings!In post 11, ItalianoVD wrote:1. What’s your mafia experience?
2. Do you like playing as town better? Or mafia better?
3. Is it hard for you to lie? Or can you do it with no problem? Both in real life and in mafia?
1. several years when i was but a Boy (way back in 2014-16); now i'm 20 and returning to the site for the first time since i was 14. i was decently well-read in terms of theory back in the day, and it's coming back to me faster than i thought it would. this is my second game post-hiatus
2. i actually really enjoy playing town! there are definitely elements of both that i like, but i find it much more stressful to play as scum
3. i would say i'm a pretty good liar, both irl and online. i don't enjoy being dishonest but i must admit it can be very useful-
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InsidiousLemons Mafia Scum
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InsidiousLemons Mafia Scum
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InsidiousLemons Mafia Scum
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hi Max bye Max
hope we get to actually play together eventually!
full disclosure the bloodhail unvote was stonedposting, i popped into the thread, panicked, realized my mistake and dipped lol. anya's attempted hammer test here was actually an okay idea, and it's a more adventurous play than what i'd expect of her. that's a good thing.
VOTE: Italiano for preempting delibird. and i don't like the "if we're the same alignment" in 19 -- why not just say "if you're town"?
@owen i actually don't mind the boxxy vote -- in the absence of anything else to really comment on, it's a decent way to gauge a reaction, if nothing else. even if i had beenof sound mind, i probably wouldn't have thought too much of it. it doesn't feel like a particularly opportunistic play to me. bloodhail's sheep of it, on the other hand, moreso.
let me be clear: i don't think anyone should claim D1 until absolutely necessary. this site's meta has become infested with pointless early claims and it's terrible-
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i don't know how i feel about this answer. it kind of reads like anya getting called out for sheeping with the same reasoning and not really having an answerIn post 41, Anya wrote:i wanted to 1up you in forceness i don't actually think it-
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it was a response to boxxy's suggestion that i'm rolefishingIn post 59, ItalianoVD wrote:
I must have missed it. Why is this being said?In post 47, InsidiousLemons wrote: let me be clear: i don't think anyone should claim D1 until absolutely necessary. this site's meta has become infested with pointless early claims and it's terrible
because i didn't want scum to quicklim town!bloodhail on page 2? if he really was at E-1 that early, wouldn'tIn post 59, ItalianoVD wrote:
Why’d you panic?In post 47, InsidiousLemons wrote:full disclosure the bloodhail unvote was stonedposting, i popped into the thread, panicked, realized my mistake and dipped lol. anya's attempted hammer test here was actually an okay idea, and it's a more adventurous play than what i'd expect of her. that's a good thing.youunvote? we're playing a 9p, which would mean that a town elim followed by a NK would leave us one miselim away from LyLo. being in that situation on D2 with only 2 pages' worth of prior information is a terrible situation for town. keep in mind that i didn't think this through nearly so much at the time, because of my aforementioned inebriation. but i do stand by the unvote in the scenario where bloodhail really was at E-1, because to me, that was the apparent reality of the situation.
it certainly tends to be, as far as i've seen. what motivation does a town player have to prevent a given player from voicing their opinion/defending themself? the more we force people to defend themselves on their own, the more we can determine their thought process and logic, and attempt to evaluate what perspective it's coming from. preemption opens the door for the person under pressure to simply copy the reasoning of their defender, and takes useful information away from town.In post 59, ItalianoVD wrote: Is preemption really scum indicative?
my argument isn't that "if you're town" is town AI, but that "if we're the same alignment" is scum AI. deliberately vague and cautious phrasing like this does indeed more often come from scum, in my experience.In post 59, ItalianoVD wrote:And saying “if you’re town” can be faked by scum.
so what if it's weird? we don't know your alignment either way, it makes no difference to us. town doesn't think about what's "weird to say", they think about what's true. maybe it would be weird to your scumpartner, but you can save that for the PT. i don't like this defense at all. as scum, your partner's opinion of you and your actions is irrelevant. "if we're the same alignment" feels like you trying to cover all the options and specifically avoid implying your alignment to try and appear town -- if we really were scumpartners, you'd know that, so there would be no reason to phrase the sentence this way. as you said, town isn't concerned with trying to appear town. so why are you?In post 59, ItalianoVD wrote:It would be weird for me to say that in thread if we’re scum partners. Because I know I’m town I don’t have to highlight the fact that I am the way scum do.-
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InsidiousLemons Mafia Scum
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that's your opinion. for my money, italiano is the better vote here. don't misunderstand me, bloodhail still gets the ol' FoS from me.In post 64, UNOwen wrote:Opportunistic sheeping sounds more worthy of a vote than the points you made about Italiano. What is the scum perspective for either of them?
re: scum motivation: preempting cbd's response could be motivated either by defending scumpartner!cdb or attempting to buddy town!cdb. as i explained above, i don't think there's ever a good reason for town to defend another player who hasn't yet responded to the accusations against them. the scum motivation for saying "if we're the same alignment" is to try and appear to have as little information about the game as possible, i.e., to appear town. but scumpartners lemons and italiano wouldknowthey were the same alignment, so there's no need to say it this way. it's performative ignorance. no matter how you slice it, italiano's phrasing reads like a conscious attempt to appear town -- and town, generally speaking, doesn't need to concern themselves with appearances.-
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InsidiousLemons Mafia Scum
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InsidiousLemons Mafia Scum
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for me, the difference lies in the thought process behind phrasing things directly versus phrasing them ambiguously. if you say you hope i'm town, you mean you hope i'm town. if you say you hope we're the same alignment, youIn post 70, UNOwen wrote:What is the distinction between "if we're the same alignment" and "if you're town", couldn't they both be seen as examples of performative ignorance?alsomean you hope i'm town. so then why say it the second way? why waste time say lot word when few word do trick? because you want to leave as much room for ambiguity in your statement as possible, to give the impression of someone who isn't ruling out any possibility. the irony of the situation is that town almost never gets this far inside their own head. they aren't worried about how ambiguous their statement is, or whether they might get accused of LAMIST, or what a hypothetical scumpartner might think of them saying "i hope you're town" in the game thread. all that matters is finding scum.
town is typically not this conscious of what they do and do not have to imply, what they should or should not emphasize. and yet, in trying to avoid highlighting the fact that he's town, italiano has inadvertently tipped his hand and shown us that this is what he's doing. as i've mentioned already, if we really were scum together, italiano wouldn't have to "hope" we're the same alignment because he'd know. there simply is not any town motivation to ambiguate your statement like this. while "i hope you're town"In post 59, ItalianoVD wrote:Because I know I’m town I don’t have to highlight the fact that I am the way scum do. (Even though I just did, curse you.)canbe performative in the sense that it can be utilized by scum, "i hope we're the same alignment" feels almostexclusivelyperformative, as an attempt to avoid accusations of just that -- performativity; LAMIST.
i've now typed a whole lot of words about what is ultimately, imo, a minor point. but although i wouldn't have blathered on quite this much unprompted, i do think it's worth remembering -- the most minor differences in phrasing can sometimes be the most telling.-
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InsidiousLemons Mafia Scum
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on what? if you're scum or not? lolIn post 75, ItalianoVD wrote:
Maybe, maybe not. It depends.In post 66, InsidiousLemons wrote:because i didn't want scum to quicklim town!bloodhail on page 2? if he really was at E-1 that early, wouldn'tyouunvote?
it doesn't matter. if you're scum you take the quickhammer and try to mist over it. at that point you're on D2 with a D1 amount of info. if i were scum, i'd take those odds, and i'd rather not find out whether the scum in this game agree with me.In post 75, ItalianoVD wrote:I get what you’re saying, but a quick or lol elimination is really scrutinized on this site so those that pushed it through would be looked at pretty heavily on Day 2. Also were you RVS voting?
and yes, my initial bloodhail vote was RVS
i don't follow. enlighten me, you've dug yourself in this far. this better not be a fucking PR softclaim because if it is it's about as subtle as a brick to the foreheadIn post 75, ItalianoVD wrote:
Ehh, it’s kind of a loaded question. I think there are variables that would make a towny “seem” like they are preventing discussion. I’d rather not say what those variables could be right now, but if you think about it more I think you’ll get what I’m saying.In post 66, InsidiousLemons wrote:what motivation does a town player have to prevent a given player from voicing their opinion/defending themself?
of course. but what makes you think your strategy will be more enlightening than anyone else's? i'm in favour of letting questions stand, by and large. we can agree to disagree on that, but if you continue to preempt and it continues to disrupt the flow of the game, i will continue to call you on itIn post 66, InsidiousLemons wrote:Everything is done to get a reaction from a specific player and from others. It just doesn’t have to be RVS and RQS. Am I making sense?
this is a big ol' pile of weaselly word vomit that barely even responds to my argument. you're just doing more of the same thing -- covering all of your options, playing it safe. i don't believe town!you responds to my attack this politely. why are you pushing back so gently? is it because you're not worried that i might be scum?In post 75, ItalianoVD wrote:I know my alignment, I don’t know yours, so if we have the same alignment (meaning both town) then both our time here will be better. If we were scum partners, like you said, what would’ve the point of saying that? It’s a stupid thing to try to fake and sort of no way anyone would actually believe it. But I’ll be able to tell before the day is out if you are town or not as I assume you will for me. And if we aren’t the same alignment meaning you are scum or I am I’m sure that will show as well.
But I’m gonna stop now before it starts getting deeper into self meta and wifom. I just wanna let you know it’s not what you think or hope it is.
i wonder why that could be.
this whole post reeks.-
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InsidiousLemons Mafia Scum
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i don't disagree with this vote but i'm curious what convinced you
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InsidiousLemons Mafia Scum
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how about you tell me why you voted first? don't answer questions with questionsIn post 89, ItalianoVD wrote:
Why do you like the vote?In post 79, InsidiousLemons wrote:i don't disagree with this vote
this is exactly what's pinging for me. he feels very apologetic and yielding generally, and i don't believe he would be looking to please so much if he were invested in finding scum.ChannelDelibird wrote:Italiano seems weirdly placatory here.
@anya what about italiano's defense feels town to you? this a good faith question
p-edit: bloodhail what are your "bad reasons" for the T3 townread?-
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boxxy can be town. i like what's come out of her recently.
every time i reread 82 i like it a little bit less. anya blatantly dodges the question asked of her and her misunderstanding doesn't feel genuine.
not_mafia: voting someone for voting you for not posting almost at all is not ignorance or inexperience. get posting cow man you have 3 of them
bloodhail: i think you know that 131 is an obvious misrep. posting reads isn't fluff. posting reads without any further justification or pressureisfluff, and right now T3 is posting to post. it doesn't feel like he's reading or actively engaging with the game.
italiano: you havestillyet to explain why your vote is on boxxy. care to enlighten us?
happy with my vote where it is.-
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InsidiousLemons Mafia Scum
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i'm not disputing that, i'm attacking your misrepresentation of boxxy's argument, and i said as much? where is my vote right now? not on T3. where has my vote ever been? not on T3. but i just came from a game that was lost in part because of T3's refusal to engage with the game as town, and i'm not about to let him coast on what are objectively low-effort and largely non-game-advancing posts. the fact that you're arguing that he continue to be allowed to play this way is not conducive to a town victory.In post 134, bloodhail wrote:thats how t3 posts its not a scumtell-
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InsidiousLemons Mafia Scum
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140 feels town and makes me feel good about delibird. not sure if i've said so yet but i've been reading him as town
do you disregard meta altogether? i'm kind of shocked that you said this so casually, as if it's obvious, considering that doing exactly what you're talking about is a huge part of the gameIn post 151, boxxy wrote:
I said its an example of low effort posts, not explicilty a scumtell, but I'll tell what I'm not going to do:bloodhail wrote:thats how t3 posts its not a scumtell
1. Read a bunch of past games to see if that's actually how someone plays
i like this approach rather than the dismissal i so often see of bare readsIn post 151, boxxy wrote:
Explain why and convince us and then we can lynch scum.bloodhail wrote:lemons is such obvious scum jesus
also i really don't think 150 was anything other than a reaction test
woah yeah okay this sucks and is unexpectedIn post 161, boxxy wrote:I would rather make a mistake policy elim now, then be forced to make it where its lynch or lose.-
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165 is a good post and 167 is a good response to it
it really is quite disappointing to play against someone who is so determined to do nothing but troll. do you genuinely believe you are playing to your wincon?In post 168, Not_Mafia wrote:
tl;drIn post 167, boxxy wrote:I'll take one last shot to explain what I mean by effort = town.
I do not mean that effort = towntell, and lazy = scumtell.
I mean that effort benefits town, regardless of its source, and lazy benefits scum, regardless of its source.
Scum who make meaningful contribution can end up helping town inadvertently by outing themselves, sacrificing their partner, or making mistakes we can catch them out on later.
Town who are lazy benefit scum by leaving themselves as unknowns, and allowing lazy scums to also slip under the radar.
It's less about somebody providing effort is necessarily town, but more so that somebody providing effort _benefits_ town, regardless of their alignment.
For that reason, with lack of anything else to go on, I will vote against anyone playing what I consider to be play with benefits scum.-
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can we get an explanation for this vote, Anya?In post 130, Anya wrote:putting boxxy into the town box now seems like an earnest toothbrusher
VOTE: NotMafia-
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InsidiousLemons Mafia Scum
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this is just kind of how i post. i tend to ramble and restate points unnecessarily because i'm prone to losing my train of thought, and i would rather over- than under-explain myself. you're attacking my style of writing rather than the content of the post itself.In post 176, Anya wrote:bloodhail keeps banging on my door to read apple's posts more clearly so i did and i really don't like whatever that is at the end there seems like writing words bc you're trying to hit a word count
can you elaborate on this please?In post 177, bloodhail wrote:cdb probably scum too-
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got impatient and tallied up the votes myself. if i counted right, boxxy is actually at E-2.
@T3 it's good to know where you stand, but some explanation of what you're seeing to generate these reads would be helpful. you mentioned that i feel different to the previous game. how so? what about my play makes you think i'm more likely to be scum? how about boxxy? an explanation of your TRs would also be very appreciated. even 1-2 lines per player, perhaps a post number here and there, would be very enlightening.-
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i don't see a substantial difference in anya's play between last game and this one, but i also don't see much of a difference between her play that game and her town play in previous games. she always follows the same pattern: little gadfly-type observations in flowery and roundabout language, preferring to stick to the sidelines for much of the game. i don't really know how we force her out of this habit. skim her iso in any one of her past few games and you'll see what i'm talking about -- she's a very consistent player from what i can tell. perhaps i overstated myself a little bit -- i don't necessarily think meta is always a huge part of every game, but it certainly can amount to huge revelations, which is why i was surprised at what looked like you discarding meta information categorically.In post 182, boxxy wrote:For someone who claims meta is "a huge part of the game," perhaps you should share some meta on how you think Anya's play there compare to here.
i stated in no uncertain terms that i was attacking the misrepresentation, not defending the argument itself. my opinion of your argument is irrelevant -- misrepping is a scum play, and it's worth calling it out. i acknowledge my hypocrisy in not taking my own advice from 66, but it was a pitiful attack to begin with and i hadn't yet engaged with bloodhail in a meaningful way.In post 185, boxxy wrote:Defending my argument for me against bloodhail here
and here:In post 133, InsidiousLemons wrote: bloodhail: i think you know that 131 is an obvious misrep. posting reads isn't fluff. posting reads without any further justification or pressureisfluff, and right now T3 is posting to post. it doesn't feel like he's reading or actively engaging with the game.In post 138, InsidiousLemons wrote:
i'm not disputing that, i'm attacking your misrepresentation of boxxy's argument, and i said as much?In post 134, bloodhail wrote:thats how t3 posts its not a scumtell
again, this is not defending. it's me being suspicious of a rather quick wagon running someone up to (what i believed to be) E-1 so early and for seemingly so little reaosn. i don't think this is a controversial thing to call out.In post 185, boxxy wrote:Defending here:In post 149, InsidiousLemons wrote:that's E-1 for boxxy. gonna read this page shortly but i really don't like this
the post you quoted contains one compliment and two criticisms of your play. this is a weak point.In post 185, boxxy wrote:And then despite not liking my stance on meta and policy elim compliment my play again here:
the reason i'm fighting a boxxy lim is because you seem town to me. i haven't heard any substantive argument on why you might be scum and people just seem to be blindly bandwagoning. the only specific reason i've seen so far is from the very beginning of the game, when you called me out for "rolefishing". i was initially fine with a vote on you (79), but you ahd barely posted and after that point, your posts look town-motivated to me. you make attempts to engage with a variety of other players, provide analysis and reasoning, and call out scummy play when you see it. your stance on policy lims is one i don't agree with, but that's not enough for me to ignore everything i like about your play. if anyone has a case on why boxxy is the best option here i am happy to be proven wrong, but as of now, i don't see it.-
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@boxxy re: anya meta since you like specific links
mini normal 2201 and electoral college mafia are town games i would consider to be representative of her play. as i said, her playstyle is very monotone, right down to pulling the fake "this is E-1" trick almost every single game-
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i don't necessarily agree that it feels ingenuine but the reasoning here is sound. cdb has been a light townread of mine thus far, but he's offered very little in the way of content. if he remains relatively inactive and indecisive, my opinion of him will sour.In post 181, bloodhail wrote:
i could troll you and just say "gut"In post 179, InsidiousLemons wrote:
can you elaborate on this please?In post 177, bloodhail wrote:cdb probably scum too
but in more words feels somewhat underwhelming, seems mostly like he's trying to not ruffle feathers, and 140 feels like he's making a show of being uncertain with how many times he mentions it in the post - like he really wants you to think "ahh gosh guys this is so hard i just don't know"
show me where i said thisIn post 189, ItalianoVD wrote:He said Anya is my potential partner,-
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i missed this.
- i don't like his defense of T3's inactivity and lack of explanation for his reads by writing it off as "how T3 posts". it's true that this has been T3's habit, but i don't see town motivation for fighting a call for him to post more substantially
- don't like his advocacy of a n_m policy lim in 154
- 181 is decent but i don't know that i buy that he believes what he's saying in posts like 145. "minimalist posting"? come on
overall it's a scumlean.
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i'm looking back on the past few pages and italiano's play has improved from 156 onwards. 189 is not super well reasoned but it has town vibes to me. the cognitive dissonance between saying i'm latching onto his words and then admitting it's not that bad of a case feels like the kind of thing scum would catch and avoid saying. i still am not a fan of how he defended himself against my "if we're the same alignment" push, but i think at this point my vote will do more work trying to force not_mafia back into the thread than it will continuing a stale push on italiano.
VOTE: Not_Mafia
@all: vibe check on bloodhail? he's probably my top pick for an elim today but i want to hear more out of cdb, anya and not_mafia before we make any decisions.
@boxxy: my answer stays the same. she played very similarly in our previous game as in her town ones, and i never suspected her heavily during that game. the fact she's posted so little in this game is also a factor, but even upon rereading our last game, i fail to identify any peculiarities or scumtells. that being said, her play this game in isolation has not been great. she's also leaning scum for me-
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you mean like i did in 180, which he has still yet to respond to?In post 200, bloodhail wrote:i said T3 plays how he plays and calling reads that are underexplained "fluff" is dumb. if you want more from him, just ask.
i think your primary objective is to discredit boxxy. they're making some solid points and by calling them "flipbait" you're insinuating that their perspective is not to be taken seriously. it also leaves the door open to you deciding later that they actually are scum while still being able to claim impartiality. in the same breath, you're actively working against pressure for T3 to reveal his thought process, which in turn makes him harder to read and diminishes his voice. putting 2 very conceivably town players on mute does not help town. i don't see this as a "nefarious plan", but scum very rarely put in major legwork D1 so the potential that this is what you're doing is enough for a scumlean from me.In post 200, bloodhail wrote:as scum my nefarious master plan is to...defend him?
i don't disagree with this, but you're still insisting i'm calling him scummy when i'm simply trying to get him to post more detailed and analyzable content. i have never made a push on T3 and i made my objective quite clear in 138. stop misrepping my reasons for putting pressure on him. you can't have it both waysIn post 200, bloodhail wrote:like if u wanna ask T3 to explain things im not stopping you from doing so but im saying reading into what he does as scummy is bad when its a characteristic of how he acts
this is laughable as an attack on my request for T3 to explain his reads. asking people to back up their arguments isn't insisting on some arbitrary "proper" playstyle, it's how you gain information on a player's thought process, and i would like to be able to do that for T3.In post 200, bloodhail wrote:u seem more concerned with wanting people to act in a way u conceive as the "proper" way to play rather than finding scum-
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the sense of 197 is that i'm notIn post 203, boxxy wrote:Why even vote then.
A vote with no intent to follow through applies no pressure.pushingfor a policy lim, but at this point am comfortable starting to build traction on one. and if N_M continues to refuse to contribute anything of value? we can reevaluate. i'm saying i don't want him dead on principle as of yet, but that we've got to start doing something to get him back in here, or he's going to get away with ending D1 with literally <10 posts-
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see 233. it's not a super strong narrative but with only 10 pages to go off of it's a more significant case than i can see for anyone else atpIn post 208, UNOwen wrote:
Agree with bloodhail's take, this is a bad case. What's the scum narrative behind his play that you're seeing?In post 196, InsidiousLemons wrote: - i don't like his defense of T3's inactivity and lack of explanation for his reads by writing it off as "how T3 posts". it's true that this has been T3's habit, but i don't see town motivation for fighting a call for him to post more substantially
- don't like his advocacy of a n_m policy lim in 154
- 181 is decent but i don't know that i buy that he believes what he's saying in posts like 145. "minimalist posting"? come on-
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would be interested to know what brought this about. T3, does cdb's posting on page 9 convince you he's more likely to be scum? if so, why? and if you don't think he's scum then why is he on the chopping block today?In post 220, T3 wrote:I don't scumread channel right now but he's in my pool right now.
bloodhail is very very very town.-
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no. T3 is an overall townlean atpIn post 254, bloodhail wrote:
okIn post 233, InsidiousLemons wrote:
you mean like i did in 180, which he has still yet to respond to?In post 200, bloodhail wrote:i said T3 plays how he plays and calling reads that are underexplained "fluff" is dumb. if you want more from him, just ask.
do you think T3 is scummy for not answering you
flipbait to me carries connotations of trolling/playing in a way that seems scum but is actually just bad town play. when i say "discrediting boxxy", this is what i mean -- saying he isn't worth being listened to and attempting to diminish a likely-town voice. maybe there's been a shift in the public perception, but going with this interpretation certainly leaves room for deciding later that "hey, that bad town play? actually just scum play. guess i was being too lenient." i think i can believe that what you meant was genuinely what you're saying above, though. either way that door is closed now.In post 254, bloodhail wrote: how is calling someone "flipbait" leaving the door open to deciding he's scum later? i'm unambiguously saying i think he's town who has eccentric opinions that were getting him scumread for not great reasons
yet again i will remind you thatIn post 254, bloodhail wrote:how does taking pressure off a player i have a townlean on being unhelpful to town. i am saying scumreads on T3 for having underexplained reads are likely ill-conceived. you are contorting yourself to make this attack. seriously, what are you not getting about this? if you have a townread on a player then them being pressured is still a good thing, because it allows for them to a) reaffirm your townread on them by defending themself well, or b) make you reconsider by doing the opposite.i am not and never have been scumreading T3
T3 had precisely zero votes at the time you started defending him so this part is complete BS. boxxy i could see because he was getting a decent amount of heat, but other than calling him "flipbait" it didn't really look like you were defending him that hard.In post 254, bloodhail wrote:pressure in the sense they were facing was working toward a potential elimination and i openly disagreed with it. those players are the easiest players for scum to push because of their playstyle, and the goal of scum is to get town eliminated
i don't think we're going to get a ton out of continuing this back-and-forth, and frankly i'd rather see you continue to play and interact with other players rather than spending most of our energy fighting each other. the others can decide whether this push on you is worth pursuing as a group, and honestly it seems like the general consensus is not really.-
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In post 262, Anya wrote:i stand by me peering into lemon's soul and seeing lemon juices that are tainted red
it feels like the lemon's been left outside the fridge and gone off slightly compared to the fresh lemons i'm used to
this is kind of a curious juxtaposition. anya, what are you hoping to accomplish with this T3 vote? and why do you think your vote is better there rather than continuing to pressure me, if my "juices" (ew) are so red?In post 275, Anya wrote:VOTE: T3
didn't you just steal that pineapple from me in the farmer's market
p-edit the cow returns! wanna give us some context for those reads?-
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it's definitely not just you. she felt a bit more passive overall in the last game i played with her than in the games you quote a bit lower down, and she was scum in that one. however, she did do a lot of the vote-hopping kind of thing in the early days of that one as well. you may be onto something, but it's hard to tell on D1. have a look at our last game if you like (feat. scum!anya) and see if you agree:In post 251, ItalianoVD wrote:Also I’ve been reading a few of Anya’s games and she seems to be a little more all over the place when she’s town. This game has been kinda subdued. Like she usually votes for everybody and says a lot of things that seem scummy. Here she seems town. Anyone who has actually played with her notice this as well?
Mini Normal 2205-
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still town. 260 doesn't bother me if that's what you're asking, and i can understand the mindset behind his earlier posts like 167 and 182.In post 266, UNOwen wrote:@Italiano - I was thinking the same about Anya, but her answers to my questions made sense and I ended up thinking I was in a bit of a tunnel. The play style difference might just be because she was replacing into our previous game, I don't really have a good comparison for early game behavior.
@Lemons - Updated read on boxxy?-
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not_mafia's vote is already on youIn post 292, boxxy wrote:Yoo legit though I think Italiano just scum slipped.
I don't think at this point in the game town puts someone at L-1 recklessly.
Especially someone who has said this in the past.
But he claims he wants a reaction from me.In post 264, ItalianoVD wrote:Also since Not_Mafia is playing the claim should be before the next person puts him at L-1.
Doesn't ask for a claim, doesn't say he's decided and wants to execute, just wants a reaction.ItalianoVD wrote: I really wanna see what you have to say about that post boxxy?
If I get hammered and italiano just sleeps till tomorrow, don't trust him if he claims he just miscounted. I do not believe Italiano as town would make a mistake like that at this point.
He's using N_M for plausible deniability.
VOTE: ItalianoVD
Yep I'm happy here. You dun goofed scum
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at what point do you feel owen's case on you become dishonest? and i think referring to owen asking me for an updated read on you as him "trying to bring me in" is a bit of a mischaracterization.In post 287, boxxy wrote:For UNOwens I'm now reading scum because this case on me no longer feels honest. It's reaching and with trying to bring Lemons in, feels like scum trying to set up a day 1 lynch.-
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his process is difficult to see into (again, because he so often refuses to answer questions), but he isn't exclusively choosing "safe" options -- there isn't a ton to go on, but for example, "my TR is voting boxxy" as reasoning in 147 feels a bit reckless for scum, and calling you "very very very town" and then not backing it up when there wasn't a consensus opinion on you is, again, bold for scum. and he never explained it, but i agree with his assessment that my early game this time round was different from last game. i know that this is very scant info, and "town boldness" could easily just be "scum stupidity" but like you said, that's T3.In post 307, bloodhail wrote:
.................................why?In post 278, InsidiousLemons wrote:no. T3 is an overall townlean atp
he's only got one completed scum game under his belt (here), but in that game he feels a bit more forthcoming and willing to please on the whole. see if you agree.
the townlean is slight, but it's there, and it's there enough for me to not really want to bother with T3 today.
that said, i'm starting to feel soft for... almosteveryplayer, which is an indication that i need to go back and reread and figure out what's what.
@dannflor votecount please?-
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rereading makes me wonder if our pair could actually be Italiano and N_M. Italiano handled my suspicion of him strangely (see Owen's 113), and 158/159 are weirdly defensive of Not_Mafia after 3 nothing posts:
was there no useful content to post by page 7? your own post history certainly suggests otherwise.In post 158, ItalianoVD wrote:
He does post useful content when there is useful content to post.In post 146, bloodhail wrote:hes not gonna post anything useful
then despite these assurances, in 189 he's fine giving N_M a free D2 pass even in light of a continued total lack of content from him.
if not_mafia is one of our (most likely) 2 scum, that could explain why everyone else looks so darn... town. it's hard to pick out 1 scum out of 8 active players, but italiano's nervousness around running up not_mafia makes me think he could be our magical 1/8. i think the best way to determine this without sacrificing anyone who's actually contributing would be to flip not_mafia and go from there. i know i said i wouldn't support a policy lim but 7 total posts D1 is abhorrent and the increased potential to gain information makes me think this could be the way to go.
thoughts?-
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way to attack the wording instead of the argument. call it what you want -- hesitancy, reluctance. what i'm saying still holds -- you were curiously cautious of a Not_Mafia elim from the very outset, to the point where you were willing to call boxxy a "true mafia" (163) for suggesting that a policy lim might be preferable early rather than in LyLo. to be clear, i was never a fan of that plan either, but your chainsaw is revving a little louder with every defense of not_mafia you make.In post 333, ItalianoVD wrote:
Nervousness?! Come on bruh the framing of that is so wrong it’s ridiculous.In post 329, InsidiousLemons wrote:but italiano's nervousness around running up not_mafia makes me think he could be our magical 1/8.
if he's scum then that suggests my theory about you two could be worth considering more deeply. i'm not saying we flashtrain you D2, but making one half of a correct solve in this context does give us information.In post 333, ItalianoVD wrote:
Tell me what information you gain from a non information slot?In post 329, InsidiousLemons wrote:i think the best way to determine this without sacrificing anyone who's actually contributing would be to flip not_mafia and go from there. i know i said i wouldn't support a policy lim but 7 total posts D1 is abhorrent and the increased potential to gain information makes me think this could be the way to go.-
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you say this as if we didn't establish in literally post #6 that the most likely setup is 2v7. if you disagreed with that conjecture you certainly never said so, and it's true that that is far and away the most common distribution for a 9p. why are you bothering to make this push?In post 338, Anya wrote:why do you say pair
is it bc there's 3 wolves and you want to look like you're oblivious and an innocent carnival goer-
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^^^^^In post 340, boxxy wrote:
I'm asking you to provide one, do you think it benefits town for you to keep your reads secret? Why? Most other players have provided read lists at this point.In post 336, ItalianoVD wrote:
I never said I was 100% giving one. Why’d you assume so?In post 335, boxxy wrote:Still waiting on that readlist Italiano, stop stalling-
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this is the second time cdb has said this and i'm not a fan. scum love to play the "yeah, if i were you i'd vote me too" card for sympathy. that said, i think i like cdb on this page so far, and this play can also come from (rusty) town. still more scumpoints than townpoints thoughIn post 341, ChannelDelibird wrote:Votes on me make sense.-
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yeah i don't love this either. Owen, what about boxxy's claim in particular gives you pause? just the fact that he didn't go for a PR claim? pretend boxxy is not an option today, either from lack of momentum or from a sufficiently convincing PR claim on his part. who is your 2nd pick for scum?In post 332, bloodhail wrote:
i also never like it when someone says something like thisIn post 325, UNOwen wrote:boxxy's VT claim makes me uneasy but I don't like his case against me and don't feel particularly good about voting anywhere else.-
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the fact that n_m is giving us precisely nothing to go off ofisanti-town play, regardless. it's terrible form to intentionally stay completely contentless D1. compare to his town games -- more often than not he at least posts *something* of value. why is he so reluctant to do so here?
and italiano i do hear what you're saying and whether i believe it comes from a town or scum perspective is kind of irrelevant atp because it doesn't look like you're the lim and at the end of the day you are still a vote. if we aren't going for n_m then who do you advocate for a lim? i know you want boxxy but are you willing to compromise on anyone else? as bloodhail says the clock is ticking-
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i don't think a vt claim is a particularly strong indicator of alignment, but maybe that's just your opinion. i see that in one of your recent games, a claimed VT was eliminated and flipped VT, so i think i can believe these are your genuine thoughts.
do you see partner equity between cdb and boxxy, or is cdb just your #2 scumread atm? what about cdb's play raises your confidence in scum!cdb and what aspects lower it?-
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sorry, i'm a bit confused. is this your case on boxxy? i think i can mostly follow your thinking but with nothing between the quotes it's a bit muddiedIn post 368, UNOwen wrote:In post 205, UNOwen wrote:
I also don't like this switch around onto Lemons, because it seems to be conceding that finding you scummy is natural. Do you think you are being suspected for good reasons?In post 182, boxxy wrote: I find it a bit suspect that Lemons seems to be defending me when many here consider me pretty scummy (being at E-1 for a bit, and E-2 for a while so far). Could be scum trying to build street cred by trying to friend a town.In post 206, boxxy wrote:
I don't. But if more than 2 people are finding me scummy than I must concede that my play appears scummy to someone who is town. Rather than defend myself its more productive to scumhunt.In post 205, UNOwen wrote: Do you think you are being suspected for good reasons?In post 246, boxxy wrote:
Finally, regarding T3. I honestly haven't looked to closely at him. His posts are pretty empty and the majority of the game seems to be okay with that.In post 243, UNOwen wrote:T3's posts are dismissed even though there is suspicion against boxxy from him. No attempt to engage with either of these players about their votes despite one being a suspect and the other being one of the low content players boxxy has complained about.In post 247, boxxy wrote:Reading page 10, I'm starting to think that Lemons and bloodhail are just two town with very different opinions on playstyle conflicting.
I don't like how after bloodhail justifies T3s posts T3 comes you saying that bloodhail is "very very very town"
That's a pretty strong read for day one page 9, @T3, what makes you so certain?In post 286, boxxy wrote:
I never claimed that. His vote on me wasn't terrible I'm sure my post looked like LHF to people, votes were on me and I brought up Not_Mafia. Nothing really for me to say about it.You talked about T3, but didn't directly ask him a question until 247 even though he was voting you forin your view not a good reason.In post 287, boxxy wrote:Neutral
T3
Pretty devoid of content. Calling me out for LHF was decent, but then ignoring my question in 247 and basically being unhelpful makes me weary.
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369 makes some solid points. i agree that much of his play can be explained by rustiness, but everything taken together forms a more convincing narrative than the sum of its parts. i think he's a decently high-info-value flip if nothing else. as you say though i think we will gain exponentially more info by waiting. i'm not convinced that the same is true of N_M but i don't believe i've played with him before so maybe i'm just being pessimistic-
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then why not just vote N_M? we're 20 hours from the deadline and he's at E-2 whereas CDB is at E-3 even after your voteIn post 373, boxxy wrote:I would support voting CBD or N_M at this point.
i'm unsure about CDB but not_mafia has made it clear he isn't interested in contributing to solving the game. he's dead weight at best.
@Owen how does boxxy's push on CDB affect your confidence in them as a pair? do you think it could be for show/an attempt at bussing?-
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if you think italiano is town then what kind of "loot box" do you think we'll fish up by limming not_mafia? you are talking about info gained yes?In post 374, Anya wrote:
don't think he ever will prove itIn post 356, ItalianoVD wrote:Revealing scum!NM isn’t gonna point anything my way because I’m not saying he’s not scum. I’m saying give him more time to prove it or not.
we might as well throw him to the piranhas now and see what kind of loot box we fish up
p-edit: that's a fair response. can you point to any of cdb's posts in particular that look like "trying to appear as contributing" as opposed to actually contributing?
p-edit II: you're right that it's a loud defense for so early on in the N_M wagon's life, but i'm not convinced it isn't just him trying to nip momentum in the bud while simultaneously furthering his push on you. italiano's 333 is not a great response to the initial accusation in my eyes. as i said in 329, italiano's 158 is also really weird because there most definitelywasuseful content to post at that point.-
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