Mini Normal 2187: PIFiMDM [game over!]

[Papa Zito]

VOTE: NoPowerOverMe

[Papa Zito]

I do, I'm trying to do something new, and you're resisting.

What do you mean by "you're resisting"?

[Papa Zito]

I do, I'm trying to do something new, and you're resisting.

What do you mean by "you're resisting"?

Should be self evident. He's acting like RVS has to happen just because it's always been that way, and moreover, that if you're against it, it's worth wagoning someone over.

In what way does believing RVS is important to starting the game "resist" the "something new" you're trying to do?

[Papa Zito]

He's the one that made the issue that RVS is mandatory.

I feel like you're purposefully dodging my questions. I wasn't asking what his opinions are, I'm asking how they're preventing you from doing things.

[Papa Zito]

It just seemed a bit of conspicuous timing for him to come in like that. He posted 2 things others had posted as well, which seems like trying to fit in but not knowing how so he just emulated other people.

I like this. VOTE: Lunar Martian

btw I've noticed a lot of new lingo. Apologies in advance if I accidentally use archaic terms.

[Papa Zito]

Would be nice if we let them respond instead of giving convenient excuses.

Just a thought.

[Papa Zito]

I don't have any solid reads because I'm drunk on that Noob Juice, but the assessment of Elements seems plausible based on similar behaviors I've observed in Mafia-adjacent games.

Which behaviors are those?

[Papa Zito]

Now that I'm typing that out and have gone back to check each post, it appears that I've already gotten some wires crossed here on the why-who-and-when of accusation, so my whole point above doesn't apply here even if it applies generally. These are straight-up mistakes on my part; I mixed up earlier vote reactions with the Lunar vote reactions and probably something else, too, so I'm not going to make any more claims about Elements. That has been discussed to death anyway.

Ok, so now that you've re-evaluated Elements, what is your opinion on that slot?

[Papa Zito]

I like Alchemist and Gamma
VOTE: penguin

Why vote Penguin here?

I've still got a large chunk of the player list to get through

This doesn't answer the question in the least.

[Papa Zito]

Can you break down and ELI5 what exactly Elements has done that is out of line with expected experienced townie behavior?

Exactly what Hayker said.

Does anyone

else

want to push me to steer the discussion back to Elements repeatedly, or are we done?

VOTE: Kazyan

What part of what Hayker said do you agree with? Can you tie what Hayker said with "expected experienced townie behavior"?

[Papa Zito]

Pushing this early seems weird, since there wasn't really anything to push about. Wagoning on an early disruption is vaguely scummy, as I've explained in a previous post of mine. There's no reason to OMGUS if you're town.

I'm happy to give more information to the town, but I'm not sure what to say besides repeating myself.

It's not weird in the least. You're not giving any indication of your thought process here. Pointing to someone else's post and saying "yeah that" doesn't tell me what

you're

thinking. I have to sort your slot. I have to figure out if you got a green or red role PM. The only way for me to do that is to get inside your head. Currently you're doing your level best to prevent me from doing so. The pushback and hand-waving only makes me more suspicious.

ok, but which do you prefer/find easier

This entire line of questioning is noise.

VOTE: Alchemist21

I'm extremely curious about this vote.

[Papa Zito]

Vote me then.

[Papa Zito]

if there's anything specific you want me on, just let me know, I'll hopefully get to reading some more ISOs

Can you vote someone

[Papa Zito]

You seem particularly interested in votes rn PZ. Is there a particular reason for that, or am I seeing something that isn’t entirely there?

Votes are more powerful than words.

[Papa Zito]

!!!!!!!!!! BEGIN PUBLIC SERVICE ANNOUNCEMENT !!!!!!!!!!


PLAYSTYLE DISCUSSIONS DO NOT FIND SCUM

THIS GAME IS ENDLESSLY DEBATING PLAYSTYLE NONSENSE

LET'S FOCUS ON MESSAGE AND INTENT INSTEAD

THANK YOU IN ADVANCE


!!!!!!!!!! END PUBLIC SERVICE ANNOUNCEMENT !!!!!!!!!!

[Papa Zito]

VOTE: NoPower

I think phase one of the hunt is complete!

what

Can you vote someone

yes
VOTE: NPOM
let's roll
with my limited knowledge this seems like a better wager than Elements for the time being

why are your choices limited to those two

As for Kazyan, don't let them Ryan you.

what

Actual question - You feel Alchemist is a worse offender of "activity without info" than anyone else in the game?

[Papa Zito]

Actual question - You feel Alchemist is a worse offender of "activity without info" than anyone else in the game?

I mean what I initially saw was someone seemingly active, then dropping off enough to be prodded. it was more just to see what happened.
rn I'm more comfortable keeping the vote there due to the interaction with Dann. it wasn't an ask for elaboration just a "but why" when the basic reasoning was in the post.

Which interaction with Dann are you referring to here?

[Papa Zito]

Hi Lunar.

Please convince me to join your wagon.

[Papa Zito]

Prodding Papa Zito.

I'M READING

[Papa Zito]

I'm actually mad because when I logged in and started reading I didn't have a prod PM, now I have a prod PM.

[Papa Zito]

Holy shit I'm playing mafia with AGar. 2021 off to a gr8 start.

Kinda curious though, why did your catchup post peter out in the 200s?

I love how the site admins are trying to use the fact that they are site admins as a shield (especially Penguin), but neither of them is actually doing much to help solve the game.

This is some very serious shade.

[Papa Zito]

I love how the site admins are trying to use the fact that they are site admins as a shield (especially Penguin), but neither of them is actually doing much to help solve the game.

This is some very serious shade.

Actually let's talk about this, because this is the 2nd time you've thrown shade my way. The first time you did it I challenged you to vote me and got crickets in response. Here we are again and you've again not voted me. Why.

[Papa Zito]

I'm going to do a quick Alchemist iso because I don't understand the hate on that slot.

[Papa Zito]

Hmm. His iso is such a mixed bag. I'll wait for a claim to opine further.

[Papa Zito]

Please don't slam a Hayker vote, I need to think.

[Papa Zito]

In a world where the Doc claim is true, we should see one of Hayker / Dannflor dead. Doctor removes the scumteam's most powerful tool. A mod-confirmed townie who's still invested can't get anywhere near endgame. These are both things you must remove. To not do so is an enormous risk.

HOWEVER - you also know the doc is going to autoprotect the confirmed townie. There are no other claims on the table, no reason to protect elsewhere. Since you know where the protect lies, you're free to shoot any other target and be guaranteed a hit. Who knows, you might even hit something important. Additionally, the town is already suspect of the doc claim (by virtue of the slot and as stated in thread). It's possible to get a mislynch there and let the town do the work for you.

If the Doc is fake then they get rid of the confirmed townie. Fake doc naturally gets lynched the next day. How does the team avoid this? By shooting elsewhere, obviously, leaving the same dilemma on the board for the town the next day.

I think both scenarios are valid.


I need to do a deeper dive on isos today and look at how the wagons shifted and who went where. There's no reason to rush a vote.

[Papa Zito]

@Hayker:
In your hammer post, you stated:

I Don't think both a doc and a

bp cop

are in the same game.

(emphasis mine) So the BP confusion was present yesterday before the hammer.


However

I protected you Dan. I did completely misread macho

on the wiki

. Would not have hammered him otherwise. I essentially read it as a BP modifier on cop and assumed it was an imppssible combo to let get into a game.

(again, emphasis mine) The Macho entry on the Wiki is extremely short, and explicit.

Macho is a role modifier that prevents players from being protected from kills in any way.

The modifier was first developed as a way to neutralise Follow the Cop strategies that exist in Cop/Doctor set-ups, preventing the Cop from gaining the Doctor's protection. Macho Cop is still the most common role associated with this modifier, but other roles have used it for balance and design reasons.

There's no way to "misread" this. It states blatantly that the modifier means the cop can't be protected. There's no mention of the term "bulletproof" anywhere and there's no way to misread this as such.

Unless you'd care to explain.

[Papa Zito]

Height of Alchemist wagon 1 (at 655)
Alchemist21 [6]: 2ndchosen1, Dannflor, PenguinPower, Lunar Martian, Elements, Gamma Emerald
Kazyan [2]: Papa Zito, Alchemist21
Hayker [2]: AGar, Kazyan
PenguinPower [1]: NoPowerOverMe
NoPowerOverMe [1]: HeWhoSwims
Elements [1]: Hayker

Kazyan threatened hammer in 664. Alchemist refused to claim in 680.


Dannflor swaps to Hayker in 684.
NPOM swaps in 691 without adding anything.
Penguin naked votes in 701
Elements naked votes in post]706[/post]


Alchemist21 [3]: 2ndchosen1, Lunar Martian, Gamma Emerald
Hayker [6]: AGar, Kazyan, Dannflor, NoPowerOverMe, PenguinPower, Elements
Kazyan [3]: Papa Zito, Alchemist21, Hayker
NoPowerOverMe [1]: HeWhoSwims

Lunar and 2nd weren't in the thread in the meantime

Dannflor says we don't hammer doc claims in 712 then revotes Alchemist in 715
Elements naked votes Alchemist in 718
PenguinPower sheeps in 720


Alchemist21 [6]: 2ndchosen1, Lunar Martian, Gamma Emerald, Dannflor, Elements, PenguinPower
Hayker [3]: AGar, Kazyan, NoPowerOverMe
Kazyan [3]: Papa Zito, Alchemist21, Hayker
NoPowerOverMe [1]: HeWhoSwims

Alchemist claims in 723
Hayker hammers in 727

...

I'm frustrated because NPOM, Elements and Penguin were very clearly just sheeping along with the IC. I can't really derive anything from that.

[Papa Zito]

This IC stuff is really screwing with things. It's too easy for people to just shadow one person.

[Papa Zito]

Hayker votes elements in 177 and reiterates the read in 249 and 457. 457 also states a scumread on AGar. 652 yet again points at Elements, but says it isn't going anywhere so votes kazyan. 661 pushes Kazyan further. 710 is the doctor claim, 727 is the hammer.

I'd like to point out 652:

I still very much feel elements is scum, since Friday he has asked for support on two wagons, supported another, and

then a silent vote on Alchemist

. One of the votes is basicslly asking dann is he'd like to wagon with him. This seems to be an empty persuit for now.

Of the current wagons, i like penguins Iso a bit more every time I read the posts.

My biggest sus, elements, has pushed the alchemist wagon several times heavily

. I also think Kazyan played rather nervously when the pressure was on them, and I'd like to know why.

vote:kazyan

(emphasis mine) He chooses to note

twice

that Elements pushed the Alchemist wagon, and he also made sure to remind us that Elements was his top scum pick. Clearly this would point to a heavy Alchemist townread. In fact this is the only time he talks about Alchemist at all. I find it exceedingly strange that Hayker would 180 this read and hammer Alchemist, even with setup spec in play.

[Papa Zito]

I'm not buying Hayker's "misread" explanation nor his flip onto Alchemist if my previous posts weren't clear.

Beyond that if he flips red I'll look for associatives then. I'm not getting anything out of votes or movements this game because people are just freaking sheeping.

[Papa Zito]

you have no scum reads outside of Hayker?

I have day 1 scumreads yes, but I don't think they're nearly as informed.

This IC stuff is really screwing with things. It's too easy for people to just shadow one person.

scum are probably in there

Normally I'd agree and be extremely suspicious, but one of the worst offenders has already flipped town for us.

But I have my questions.

Did I miss your questions?

[Papa Zito]

Decided to take a look at PenguinPower voters. Since I'm the only one playing right now anyway.

* Elements voted in 260. When asked why, the answer was "I've still got a large chunk of the player list to get through" (266) which implies it's not serious.
* NPOM voted in 330 complaining about a "free pass". Penguin voted NPOM in 302 and refused to comment on anything else.
* Kazyan voted in 347. Apparently this was a pressure vote
* Lunar Martian voted in 492 for buddying Dannflor and coasting.
* NPOM revotes in 502? Even though he was already there.
* Kazyan rejoins in 521, reason unstated.

I didn't remember there was this much movement on Penguin. I'll look at these more in depth tonight.

[Papa Zito]

I can't get anything else from the Elements vote (260) The self-imposed vote restriction is extremely aggravating.

NPOM's vote is rather suspect. He doesn't mention Penguin in his iso at all until Penguin votes him, then he's suddenly suspect enough of Penguin to vote him in return. That vote remains for the majority of the day.

Kazyan's vote, like most of their play, doesn't make a lot of sense. A pressure vote with 0 interaction behind it generates scant pressure. Kazyan spent the time between the vote in 347 and the eventual unvote in 435 talking mainly about themself (declaring victory, oddly enough). Elements did us a favor by asking what information was gained, and Kazyan responded talking about Alchemist. I'm honestly not sure what to make of any of this.

I actually agreed with Lunar's vote in 492. I read Penguin's play similarly - he seemed too buddy-buddy with Dannflor for my taste and I also agreed the Penguin seemed disinterested in providing much to the thread. Given the flip I guess Penguin was just trying to make more of an impact in the nightgame.

Kazyan's vote to rejoin the PenguinPower wagon late is, again, somewhat baffling. It seemed to be wagoning purely for wagoning's sake, though I'll grant it's on a slot that Kazyan claims at least somewhat scumread.

[Papa Zito]

oh no

[Papa Zito]

oh no

Are you upset about the pizza or the FoS?

Ok I still want you dead but this is the best post in the game.

[Papa Zito]

Lunar does the scum thing of throwing shade, presuming intent in the worst light possible. They're either scum or exceptionally bad town, and either way need to be removed before endgame.

[Papa Zito]

may be conf-biased

Indeed

[Papa Zito]

It would've been a lot easier if you'd interacted with me instead of sitting on a conclusion.

Your case is basically that I didn't want to rush the day and I put my notes in the thread. I think my progression to Hayker was pretty clear. I examined the Penguin votes and made progression on NPOM from that. I'd already expressed that Lunar is throwing shade, he did so with Penguin as well if you recall, that didn't come out of nowhere. Maybe you're due a re-read.

[Papa Zito]

However, one of my biggest issues comes from how you've approached Hayker. Do you disagree with my analysis of the setup and his claim?

I don't disagree with your analysis, no, but you also had information that I didn't. I posted my analysis and my reasoning for suspicion which has nothing to do with setup spec. Do you disagree with it?

I feel like you should have been more suspicious of him from the start, instead of the WIFOMy well it could go both ways post you started with. Am I wrong?

Quite wrong yes. I wasn't particularly suspicious of Hayker, and I came in today expecting one of you or Hayker dead. Instead I got Penguin and AGar. This caused me to want to pause and re-evaluate. You're essentially calling me scum for not thinking exactly like you do and for being open about my thoughts in the thread.

[Papa Zito]

unwnd I'm still going through your posts and cross-checking your references.

I'm posting this because there is absolutely no reason to end the day at this time.

[Papa Zito]

Zito, you think Lunar is scum from my small dive so I want to know what you think of my logic presented as a whole right now.

From my understanding your logic is: There must be scum on the current Hayker wagon. You know you are not scum, you believe Lunar to be town for reasons unknown, therefore Gamma is the most likely suspect. I don't find this line of thought terribly convincing because:

* it doesn't talk about Kayzan, also on the wagon, at all
* it's a somewhat arbitrary division of players; one could just as easily take the "not voting" category of players instead
* I don't really think Lunar is town

That aside, your arguments for Gamma Emerald to be the correct pick aside from pure process of elimination are:

lot of his responses to me are pretty flat and posts like #615 in regards to his own attention span feels attributed to a guilty conscience

I don't really understand this point. What are "flat" vs "non-flat" (?) responses? Can you give examples of which particular responses you consider "flat" and why?

Why do you attribute 615 to a "guilty conscience" vs ... I dunno, anything else?

His trajectory this game so far seems like an intentional means to not upset anyone, where-in his responses are very measured. I tend to backspace a lot more as scum because I'm really careful about the way I explain my thought process as I don't want to leave any holes for townies to pick up on. In that sense, I feel the restraint is intentional.

I don't really understand this point either. Are you saying you think he hasn't been confrontational enough? Or that he hasn't argued with enough people? Can you explain what you mean here?

It's not that saying 'hm' or thinking about things makes you scum, it is everything surrounding that empty thought. Just a lot of mundane responses and mostly attuned to what is going around him instead of going out and seeking answers.

I think this is a restatement of the 2nd argument unless I'm mistaken.


Overall - my current thought is that a lot of your criticisms are extremely vague.

[Papa Zito]

If you interpret them as vague there's probably a good amount of truth into that. Very often I will just let my mind wander and let my fingers do the work. Meaning, I just say shit and see how people interpret my own thoughts. You seem to disagree which in turn is a reaction that I consider in the broader view of the game. I'd like to see what Gamma himself thinks about my takes regardless

Well I'd prefer you answer my questions so I can better understand what you're thinking.

[Papa Zito]

HWS

_ Scumlean/??? _ Leans on player meta to defend hayker. Crappy role fishing. General Non-Participation(not just activity, but also content).

This is in reference to 790 correct?

[Papa Zito]

Honestly, unless I'm all sorts of wrong about this game and like the NPOM/unwnd slot is scum it feels like mafia have given up.

Can you expand on your NPOM/unwnd town read please

[Papa Zito]

inb4 selfhammer

[Papa Zito]

Prodding Papa Zito.

I was letting the thread breathe and hoping for more northsidegal posts :/


I did an iso dive on 2ndchosen1 and came away feeling he(?) is very town.

[Papa Zito]

I'm still curious about your NPOM townread.

[Papa Zito]

I still see no point in rushing the day.

[Papa Zito]

I demand a recount