Mini Normal 2191 | Endgame

[nepenthe]

jumping into this to say:

i know that random voting is site meta on MS but i guess i’ve never understood the point of it and as a contrarian, want to set myself apart from the many by not doing that yet. and announcing that i’m not doing it, to boot.

(also, gentle heads up that i think dkkoba’s pronouns are they/them. not to embarrass anyone but i know it’s important to have gender identity recognized externally.)

[nepenthe]

sorry to double post but while i’m here, and a general question for anyone who sees this:

what’s your biggest strength as a mafia player? eschewing alignment, just focusing solely on self-perception.

[nepenthe]

unfortunately for u, my good sir i think that ur opening was a bit scummy tonewise so i will VOTE: nepenthe

interesting and i won't disagree - rather, i want you to elaborate on why.

[nepenthe]

I read Nepenthe's question as strength as scum player only, my bad.

As town player... I'm usually very paranoid and try to find lies. That has helped me find scum, but it has often backfired too. Last game I tunneled the two best town players while townreading both the scum players for a pretty long time, pretty yikes.

i appreciated both answers. i've done that before; i tend to fixate on something i don't like in a person's thought process or something they've said and focus on that even after they've proved themselves, i guess? it's the one thing i'm always actively working on because i know i can get stuck in those mindsets if i don't stay consciously aware of what reads are stale versus not.

[nepenthe]

You're very self conscious and look as though u feel as though u need to towntell in a way that isn't offensive, even apologizing a lot.

i think one apology is not "apologizing a lot" but i do find that people who are playing to an agenda (in this case, scum because i'm pretty sure this isn't a game with 3p - if it is, i'll cry) need to start early on trying to create a narrative surrounding other players so that later, when they attempt to build on that push, it looks more substantial than it actually is. try again, and this time, i want you to really analyze what i said and make a good case for it.

also, am i being pocketed by ben? is this what it feels like? am i the pet townie?

[nepenthe]

call it cynical but i think tone is a falsehood in a text based game early on, especially when you have no previous experience with a player to be able to judge whether or not they're communicating in a way that's out of character for them or, as you might say, "tonally" errant. i like to wait until the tenth page or so to start pretending i can read people for tone.

[nepenthe]

call it cynical but i think tone is a falsehood in a text based game early on, especially when you have no previous experience with a player to be able to judge whether or not they're communicating in a way that's out of character for them or, as you might say, "tonally" errant. i like to wait until the tenth page or so to start pretending i can read people for tone.

i come from a chat mafia background where tone is an excellent tell, and ive converted that into forum format as a basis to begin my early game pushes.

if i'm thinking of the right place- i've played there, too. won a few trophies. it's actually where my skepticism of tone comes from.

i think ur a bit complacent interacting with me nepethne, dont u just wanna tell me to fuck off and that im town?

i think you want me to do that because it would help you understand my thought process a bit better, but that's not my end goal. i'm trying to understand exactly where your read on me comes from.

[nepenthe]

i think ur vibes are town so far chumbo :3

what is "town vibes" to you? i'm not sure how you came to this conclusion so quickly

(also i just read over the rules and saw only 1 bah post is allowed so i'm sorry for my 2 opening posts without content, i just tried to send something that didn't go through so i wasn't sure if it was working)

i think he comes off as someone who isnt informed basically

it's not going to help you read me if i tell you.

[nepenthe]

i think ur vibes are town so far chumbo :3

what is "town vibes" to you? i'm not sure how you came to this conclusion so quickly

(also i just read over the rules and saw only 1 bah post is allowed so i'm sorry for my 2 opening posts without content, i just tried to send something that didn't go through so i wasn't sure if it was working)

i think he comes off as someone who isnt informed basically

it's not going to help you read me if i tell you.

i got too excited and forgot that i'd quoted something to respond to before replying to you.

[nepenthe]

WHY DO I KEEP DOING THAT. i have to figure out the mechanics of this site.

[nepenthe]

i was assuming 3 but that'd probably make more sense for 10p.

[nepenthe]

i'm here, i'm alive. need to catch up, sorry everyone.

[nepenthe]

I think your takes so far have been logically good, Maduisha, and your approach to the game seems to have changed. You are more perceptive of the events around you, which is a positive sign. There was an evolution in your mindset.

In relation to Lenora, your observation about the genuity of a possible town!Lenora seems persuasive, but I'm trying to limit myself before seeing the slot as town atm. The reason is that if she were a newbie and we were in a newbie game, I would probably see the behavior that you pointed out as difficult to be simulated by a newbie!Scum mindset, but considering this is a normal game, it is very easy for her to be an alt of a regular player engaging in a newbie narrative to stay off the radar (as scum), or has some other particular goal to act in such way (like testing a different playstyle, as town), but in both scenarios I don’t mean to underestimate the slot, especially since I don’t know who she is. I need to see more of her interactions with the game to be more confident about my accuracy of read on her, whether town or scum.

Can u tell us why
and yea sure let me go ahead with that:

Eloisa: Town just the whole thinking seems to line up with reality, which is to say her logic is the same as my logic so we're good. If I town read anyone it's her.
Koba: The sort who wolfs as town or scum.
You: The same as always, i.e. verbose and such. I will be patient.
Madoisha: Seems okay for now. Appreciating the effort.
Ben dover: Have honestly completely skipped past em in my skimming.
Umlaut: Nothing out of the ordinary. Kinda just waiting to see what happens here. The more he posts the better the game will be I think.
I'm forgetting two people idk who tho

I think your takes so far have been logically good, Maduisha, and your approach to the game seems to have changed. You are more perceptive of the events around you, which is a positive sign. There was an evolution in your mindset.

In relation to Lenora, your observation about the genuity of a possible town!Lenora seems persuasive, but I'm trying to limit myself before seeing the slot as town atm. The reason is that if she were a newbie and we were in a newbie game, I would probably see the behavior that you pointed out as difficult to be simulated by a newbie!Scum mindset, but considering this is a normal game, it is very easy for her to be an alt of a regular player engaging in a newbie narrative to stay off the radar (as scum), or has some other particular goal to act in such way (like testing a different playstyle, as town), but in both scenarios I don’t mean to underestimate the slot, especially since I don’t know who she is. I need to see more of her interactions with the game to be more confident about my accuracy of read on her, whether town or scum.

i feel like this is

so much talking

to express a simple idea, which i usually think is scum indicative. town is generally way more to the point, as they don't have to try too hard to look like they're contributing whereas it's in maf's best interest to maximize everything so it looks like they have "content" and are proactive. i call bluff.

Can u tell us why
and yea sure let me go ahead with that:

Eloisa: Town just the whole thinking seems to line up with reality, which is to say her logic is the same as my logic so we're good. If I town read anyone it's her.
Koba: The sort who wolfs as town or scum.
You: The same as always, i.e. verbose and such. I will be patient.
Madoisha: Seems okay for now. Appreciating the effort.
Ben dover: Have honestly completely skipped past em in my skimming.
Umlaut: Nothing out of the ordinary. Kinda just waiting to see what happens here. The more he posts the better the game will be I think.
I'm forgetting two people idk who tho

something about these reads feels weird to me. zulf, why do you think umlaut posting more would improve the game?

and then just based off skimming a bit earlier, people i'm liking this game for their content insofar as it feels sincere and from a town perspective: maduisha, lenora. i don't like how many people are attempting to cast doubt on whether len's confusion/questioning at the start was genuine; on the bright side, i don't see anyone caring enough to embed themselves into towncore this early by trying to discredit their partner like that and i don't sincerely believe anyone's reading her and genuinely scumreading her so i think she's town which means looking in the people pushing on her (even just passively) is probably worthwhile. madu seems to be consistently trying to understand the game in a way i think is sincere and towny - don't get the feeling she knows more than she should, if that makes sense.

[nepenthe]

i don't know *how* i manage to always mess up quoting but, hopefully that's readable/coherent.

[nepenthe]

oh also, chumbo's entrance into the game with a joke feels good to me in that i think town is usually less concerned w/ how they enter a game versus mafia being too aware of what they're saying and how they might be perceived in early game so i really like that and am inclined to townread it. koba's slot - sorry to refer to it as koba's slot, just unsure of who has it now (i know someone does, i'm just lazy/forgetful) - pointed out that chumbo had "town vibes" which i think is a valid read obviously but i was wary of them not explaining it combined with the very lackluster/underwhelming response to my early push so i'm wary of that slot right now.

[nepenthe]

need to reread very quickly but after rereading:

1. i'm solidifying my scumread on clidd after going back and forth over that slot. just not able to townread them right now.

2. can someone condense/quickly explain the wagon on fuzzy here?

[nepenthe]

*skimming btw, not a full in-depth read. i'll do a proper one in a few and come back if i have anything else to add.

[nepenthe]

okay yeah... fuzzy's play makes sense in the context of a pr. i guess i can see how they got scumread but it's kind of a reach. people i'd be comfortable voting today are still clidd, definitely cabd. i don't really see zulfy as being particularly towny either, but i'm open to being proven wrong. also - hopefully will be able to commit more time to this game at hours that make sense this week and opening myself up to any questions people might have in order to help themselves read me.

[nepenthe]

okay yeah... fuzzy's play makes sense in the context of a pr. i guess i can see how they got scumread but it's kind of a reach. people i'd be comfortable voting today are still clidd, definitely cabd. i don't really see zulfy as being particularly towny either, but i'm open to being proven wrong. also - hopefully will be able to commit more time to this game at hours that make sense this week and opening myself up to any questions people might have in order to help themselves read me.

My only question to you is if you can expand your read on me in a way where you say literally everything you are thinking, without filters, regardless of whether or not you have an offensive opinion. It is important that I understand exactly how you are seeing me, because then I can tell if you are town or scum fosing me.

my issue with this is that if i fos you, it wouldn't make sense for me to want to appeal to you or prove that i'm town - if i see you as mafia, then i see you as an informed minority which means that i feel confidently that you know i'm town. feels like a bit of a logical disconnect.

[nepenthe]

in any case, i think it's just your playstyle. sidebar for everyone: i'm going into this without meta and i'd prefer not to look at people's previous games when i say things about playstyle either - i want everyone to feel like they have a clean slate insofar as from me, they'll only be judged on how they play in this game

for me, it's that you say what looks like a lot but is really just a very simple idea expanded on to give the appearance of more content, and i get the feeling you're playing to a specific agenda which is always scum indicative to me. i think town is more natural in how they observe and share their findings and something about you today feels like you're maneuvering to find the easiest person to lynch.

[nepenthe]

VOTE: clidd

[nepenthe]

back in a jam.

[nepenthe]

also worth noting, i feel like pushing on me because i liked chumbo's entrance versus not liking clidd is just a lazy thing that scum can easily latch onto when it's actually not the big contradictory mindtrap people want to set it up as. some people are capable of having good entrances as either alignment, chumbo's did and it felt genuine. do you guys want me to ignore the fact that i don't townread the new person in the slot because the old person in the slot arguably had a better entrance to the game? c'mon now. let's think.

[nepenthe]

also worth noting, i feel like pushing on me because i liked chumbo's entrance versus not liking clidd is just a lazy thing that scum can easily latch onto when it's actually not the big contradictory mindtrap people want to set it up as.

some people are capable of having good entrances as either alignment, chumbo's did and it felt genuine. do you guys want me to ignore the fact that i don't townread the new person in the slot because the old person in the slot arguably had a better entrance to the game?

c'mon now. let's think.

It's not a contradiction because they're different people with different playstyles. I think I noted that down in one of the posts in which I addressed you about it, but it's interesting you think people "want to set it up as a contradictory mindtrap." If you have such suspicions, why are you still voting Clidd instead of Ben or me that pushed you about this?

Regardless, my question about this whole deal was how does the Chumbo townread affect your read of Clidd. I'm asking this because Clidd and Chumbo don't exist in a vacuum, they both saw the same role pm and you read them in two different alignments, which means you're wrong about one of the reads, so that's something to reflect on. And I'm not insisting on this point because of thinking you can't townread scum and then realize they're scum afterwards; I'm well aware that's a possibility, and it happened to me in my last game as well. I just want you to tell us which of the two reads you think is more likely to be wrong, and how do both of the reads mesh together in your mind.

i feel like i already answered this and i really hate repeating myself - again, apologies if that's blunt but it's a text based game where you can always filter and reread me if there's something i've already expanded on, and i've definitely expanded on this. if it helps, i bolded exactly what i think is the answer to your question.

VOTE: Nepenthe

I think I'm actually going to place this here for pressure, I really want you to elaborate on your thoughts. And I believe a little back and forth could help us understand each other, if you are willing to engage with me here.

this probably sounds stubborn and i don't mean for it to, but i townread you so there's no real reason for me to push myself to engage with you further if i feel good about the read. you're welcome to vote me, i'm not really someone who responds to pressure and certainly not at the final hour.

[nepenthe]

1. i'm solidifying my scumread on clidd after going back and forth over that slot. just not able to townread them right now.

Nepenthe, sorry if I sound blunt, but is this the reason why you SR'ed clidd and voted clidd?

i don't understand this question. you're asking me if i scumread clidd and voted clidd because i "am not able to townread them right now" after rereading... is that the question?

[nepenthe]

if so, yes. i would say i am voting the person i scumread because i don't townread them.

[nepenthe]

You scumread me because you don't townread me? what?

@Cabd it depends on which one I feel more confident by reads/impressions.

idk how that concept doesn't make sense to you. i reread you, i see no reason to townread you - as such, you're in the pool of people i'd vote.

[nepenthe]

VOTE: Nepenthe

I think I'm actually going to place this here for pressure, I really want you to elaborate on your thoughts. And I believe a little back and forth could help us understand each other, if you are willing to engage with me here.

It's a bit late in the day to vote someone "for pressure," isn't it? Especially when you say that's what it's for. I don't believe I would feel any pressure at all from a vote like that.

Nah, not at all! I was pressuring for him to engage with me specifically, not to threaten to hunt him down. I wouldn't have made 450 otherwise, it makes no sense. I felt he addressed the topic but explicitly avoided my points, so I wanted to make sure to be able to sort my issues with Nep before the night phase started.

also worth noting, i feel like pushing on me because i liked chumbo's entrance versus not liking clidd is just a lazy thing that scum can easily latch onto when it's actually not the big contradictory mindtrap people want to set it up as.

some people are capable of having good entrances as either alignment, chumbo's did and it felt genuine. do you guys want me to ignore the fact that i don't townread the new person in the slot because the old person in the slot arguably had a better entrance to the game?

c'mon now. let's think.

It's not a contradiction because they're different people with different playstyles. I think I noted that down in one of the posts in which I addressed you about it, but it's interesting you think people "want to set it up as a contradictory mindtrap." If you have such suspicions, why are you still voting Clidd instead of Ben or me that pushed you about this?

Regardless, my question about this whole deal was how does the Chumbo townread affect your read of Clidd. I'm asking this because Clidd and Chumbo don't exist in a vacuum, they both saw the same role pm and you read them in two different alignments, which means you're wrong about one of the reads, so that's something to reflect on. And I'm not insisting on this point because of thinking you can't townread scum and then realize they're scum afterwards; I'm well aware that's a possibility, and it happened to me in my last game as well. I just want you to tell us which of the two reads you think is more likely to be wrong, and how do both of the reads mesh together in your mind.

i feel like i already answered this and i really hate repeating myself - again, apologies if that's blunt but it's a text based game where you can always filter and reread me if there's something i've already expanded on, and i've definitely expanded on this. if it helps, i bolded exactly what i think is the answer to your question.

VOTE: Nepenthe

I think I'm actually going to place this here for pressure, I really want you to elaborate on your thoughts. And I believe a little back and forth could help us understand each other, if you are willing to engage with me here.

this probably sounds stubborn and i don't mean for it to, but i townread you so there's no real reason for me to push myself to engage with you further if i feel good about the read. you're welcome to vote me, i'm not really someone who responds to pressure and certainly not at the final hour.

I get not wanting to repeat yourself (I hate that too, it's kinda the reason why I voted you for engagement pressure, I felt like I was repeating my concern and getting skimmed over), and I read what you have highlighted, don't worry. So, what you are saying is that despite having an early townread of Clidd's slot, you think your scumread of the current user overrides the impressions you got from Chumbo, correct? I want you to confirm that:

a) You don't "clean the slate" when people replace into a slot.
b) You now reread Chumbo's entrance and

can

see it as scum making an effort to blend in.

That's the way I can understand your logic and I want to know if I'm wrong. You can just answer yes/no to avoid repeating yourself, but it would be helpful for my understanding of the way you play if you do so.

i had a whole reply to this typed up that i somehow lost so i'm gonna try to reorganize those thoughts again:

1. yes and no. to an extent, sometimes my view of a slot can be colored by the actions of the person in it before, especially the longer a game goes on and the more prolific their play was while they were in the slot. considering chumbo was here for like a day, i wouldn't consider him prolific, if that makes sense. beyond that though, i generally try to approach any replacement with fresh eyes rather than informing my read based on how the previous player played because i think everyone plays a bit differently and someone may be better as scum than their replacement, so if they got me to successfully townread them and then were replaced by someone who maybe doesn't have a strong scumgame and who i immediately read as scum, it does me no good to hold onto that old read. does that make sense?

2. chumbo's entrance is less and less important to me as the game progresses because of the point i made about prolific play/time spent in a game but yeah, i can say it's possible he's just a strong/confident scum player who was able to enter the game naturally, which is what the case would have to be if my read on his replacement is correct. i hope i've answered these questions well? for some reason i'm worried about missing something but if there's anything else, just ask. i should be around all day.

[nepenthe]

Thank you for answering. Now I think I understand your logic a bit better and why the drastic change happened, given that you supposedly had already drawn AI material from the slot, and the usual policy that I've seen is that it's not good to completely discard your initial read in case of replacement, I was having my doubts about if it made sense. I also really wanted a statement about your usual handling of replacements because I was under the impression that perhaps that one was being singled out in a way that was worrying me, but with that information now I can better assess your upcoming interactions with the two replaced slots. With that worry being out of the picture, I think can more comfortably rule out certain possibilities moving onwards.

Also, I imagine you're going to comment on the current claim discussion soon, and I would like to hear your opinion on Cabd and Fuzzy's claims. Especially because you're voting Clidd at the moment, since I don't think anyone is sold on that wagon yet and we have yet to decide EoD elimination.

re: claims, i'd prefer not to vote anyone claiming a PR on day one - i believe fuzzy's claim, cabd's feels a bit more opportunistic to me but both could be real, as much of a stretch as i feel that is. i just think it's incredibly terrible luck if we collectively pushed out two PRS on day one, like... unluckier than i'm willing to believe we are.

[nepenthe]

Also none of you are cohort players lol. That's not an insult but an actuality.

what's a cohort player?