Mini Normal 2183 | Innocent Things | Game Over!

[Andresvmb]

The same point you are making about Noraa with Johnny, you could make about me with Flavor (I suspect you don’t believe Flavor and I could be the Team, but I’ve seen crazier things being thrown out there). With Flavor under pressure, I said this:

Also, you were saying I don't run games as town, but I specifically run games as scum (one because it helps) because I have a tendency to powertown.

I prefer playing troll town, then popping out of nowhere late game and solving, but I never get to do that anymore.

Yeah that’s what I’ve seen from you, is true. Look I don’t know what your alignment is, but provided I don’t get overly Scummy vibes from you (and I haven’t), I think bouncing my thoughts off of you is helpful.

andres do you townread FL?

whats your read on unwnd?

I’m not ready to stick my neck out completely for Flavor. But you would agree that Flavor is a good player as Town and not just Scum yeah? So I am of the opinion that we should at least try and give Flavor some time to actually show their alignment and not just execute there because of a self-vote. We have enough players with a sufficiently strong reputation I think that we can quickly turn against Flavor if necessary.

I find it hard to believe that there’s this many people that are quite certain that Flavor is Scum when I’ve literally come out of several games where Flavor was impossible to eliminate even when Flavor was openly pushing a narrative that defied several events that had occurred throughout the game.

Yet you give me no credit for any of it, because it doesn’t fit your narrative.

[Andresvmb]

The point is that Scum can and do look to pocket players, and do make arguments about why certain Town players should be kept around. So your point about what Noraa did to Johnny can’t be coming from Scum is bad. Noraa leading the charge against Johnny would also make Noraa look bad I would point out. So maybe you want to keep the shade going to discredit, but not push too hard not to put yourself. Like it’s entirely possible, yet you insist on seeing Noraa’s actions under the best possible light, and mine under the worst one.

[Andresvmb]

^Not to out yourself*

[Andresvmb]

One thing I would point out is that Noraa keeps saying that their meta is hard to change. And they are highlighting that their results should indicate that this is not their Scum game. But I can point out a few things that they’ve done this game that absolutely fit their Scum meta.

For instance, they came out and accused me of OMGUS’ing, while arguing that I am Scum.

In Mini Normal 2168, they did the same exact thing. See: viewtopic.php?p=12188930#p12188930.

How about questioning Claims?
viewtopic.php?p=12188704#p12188704

Appealing to emotion, constantly? And being abrasive?
viewtopic.php?p=12188999#p12188999

How about using someone’s join date against them? Also in that game. Oh, or laughing at someone else’s reasoning?
viewtopic.php?p=12164223#p12164223

Do I need to keep going?

[Andresvmb]

One thing I would point out is that Noraa keeps saying that their meta is hard to change. And they are highlighting that their results should indicate that this is not their Scum game. But I can point out a few things that they’ve done this game that absolutely fit their Scum meta.

For instance, they came out and accused me of OMGUS’ing, while arguing that I am Scum.

In Mini Normal 2168, they did the same exact thing. See: viewtopic.php?p=12188930#p12188930.

How about questioning Claims?
viewtopic.php?p=12188704#p12188704

Appealing to emotion, constantly? And being abrasive?
viewtopic.php?p=12188999#p12188999

How about using someone’s join date against them? Also in that game. Oh, or laughing at someone else’s reasoning?
viewtopic.php?p=12164223#p12164223

Do I need to keep going?

I’m not putting myself in the Team because I’m Town. This is like elementary stuff. I don’t have a problem being included in someone else’s POE - I would argue that makes sense. But if you expected me to argue that I myself should be considered as part of a Scum Team... I have nothing to say to you.

I’m going to stick to my guns and my vote here. The idea that the Scum never intended to bus is ridiculous. It’s also something that Noraa is perfectly capable of doing btw.

Also, is Noraa really saying that Insano and I are tied, but Insano has “very good tone and seems super Townie”? Sure. Inscrutable arguments seem to be Noraa’s specialty.

[Andresvmb]

Why did I quote my own post? Didn’t intend to do that.

[Andresvmb]

Well you know at least I’m flattered. You’ve decided I’m such a threat that you had to try and straight up bury me in a game. I respect that. You’ll also never going to be able to get away with it now. You’ve made such a big fuss about it that if I do flip, you won’t get to live it down as an honest mistake.

[Andresvmb]

This post is terrible! Terrible reasoning! You use the SAME words as Scum without understanding what it is you’re actually arguing.

Scum theater isn’t typically associated with someone making a game state comment about a slot. It would be if we fought hard against each other as Scum both, or if we went for the full we’re an alliance that can’t be beaten.

[Andresvmb]

I was so begging Titus to lead a mis-execution train that I decided... to shoot there N1? That makes no sense at all.

[Andresvmb]

I never voted Flavor. Not once. Not even threw a SR in that direction. I did say I would consolidate there if forced to, but that I remained skeptical at the idea that Flavor was Scum. If I was looking for someone to give me permission to vote there, I sure did it wrong.

[Andresvmb]

Is there anything based on your push of Andres that you're uncertain about? Don't get yourself into a tunnel where you just start confbiasing everything they do as scum.

Andres you too, I can't believe I have to say this at all lol

Have you even read my progression on the slot? It’s like you refuse to pay attention to what’s immediately in front of you to avoid confrontation.

[Andresvmb]

And when I flip Town, you should get executed. This bad faith attempt at painting everything I’ve done as Scummy or terrible should get you executed. If not because it would confirm the obvious, to teach you a lesson.

[Andresvmb]

I’m pretty sure Noraa is Scum. Too many bad faith arguments being made against me for it to make sense as anything else.

And Insano’s position is untenable. I will flip Town. And Insano will be forced to confront the reality that the Scum bussed. Just watch the reaction when that’s the case. Insano can’t openly argue that Flavor and I are the Team, because then their hypothesis that the Scum did not bus collapses. So they have to push a very narrow reality that geraintm and I are the Scum Team. This idea will have to be discarded one way or the other. And Insano not even being open to that possibility until one of geraintm/me being executed should be a red flag to you.

[Andresvmb]

^is executed should be a red flag*

[Andresvmb]

For example, I directly stated that I would not push for a policy execution of shellyc because that’s not how I play, and that I look to evaluate players in a game based on the merits. Noraa’s interpretation? That I was looking for a policy execution of shellyc. So regardless of what I actually said (or the fact that I gave shellyc a TR early) I was *looking* for a PL because well, it fits the narrative. It’s a bad faith argument.

[Andresvmb]

You’ll also notice that I am being shaded for giving geraintm some crap for their Day 1 play (which was an attempt to encourage them to post and not shy away from putting their views out there). If geraintm is confScum, as Noraa has declared, why does my shade there count against me? That’s, again, absurd. If you want to argue it’s theater by all means. But the actual argument put forth doesn’t make sense.

[Andresvmb]

And now all of my solid reads are TMI? That’s not how TMI works btw. Noraa is completely ignoring the actual progression behind a read, and arguing that any read she supposedly agrees with is based on too much information. But how convenient is that?

[Andresvmb]

Here is what Noraa fails to understand. When you ask someone else for reads, it’s not necessarily to replace your views with theirs. It’s to see how they’re viewing the game, and whether it makes sense to you. You’ll notice for example that I asked Johnny for his solve too, and he provided it. I questioned it at first, trying to figure out if it made sense. Then Johnny modified it a bit, and was NK’ed. That helps inform my own reads of course, but it never fully replaces what I’m seeing.

Painting all such interactions as just me looking to hide behind others is pretty rich, and is being done in bad faith. This just isn’t Town. It can’t be - that would be awfully sad.

[Andresvmb]

The explanation Noraa is providing for my shift on shellyc is obviously incomplete. More bad faith. Go read how I explained it at the beginning of D2. A lot of it is just being ignored because it doesn’t fit.

[Andresvmb]

Can you shut up until I finish my ISOs.

You can’t tell me to shut up. Fuck off.

[Andresvmb]

For example, I directly stated that I would not push for a policy execution of shellyc because that’s not how I play, and that I look to evaluate players in a game based on the merits. Noraa’s interpretation? That I was looking for a policy execution of shellyc. So regardless of what I actually said (or the fact that I gave shellyc a TR early) I was *looking* for a PL because well, it fits the narrative. It’s a bad faith argument.

when did I ever say that.

First comment in 1951.

[Andresvmb]

Ur annoying as hell. Im taking unwnds advice, going back and reading, and ur just refuting absolutely everything. Stop.

I can give my side of things if I choose to. I’m not directly speaking to you either. So again, fuck right off.

[Andresvmb]

And yet I was TR’ing there. Being careful against players with good reputations is done by everyone. It’s like you forget that the same argument was made against Flavor by others. But if it doesn’t fit your narrative, just ignore it right? Not useful?

[Andresvmb]

No, you’re just putting forth some really shitty arguments. There’s a difference.

[Andresvmb]

Noraa you should make up your mind about my interactions with plus. Because if I recall correctly, you shaded me for disagreeing there. And now you’re saying I was too agreeable?

is that 4 votes on Noraa?

Meh.

Plusjoyed probably scum, Johnny probably town.

There’s one thing about plusJOYED that I’ll say. I recall feeling very disconnected with plusJOYED when we were both Town, and we exchanged SRs, and I also remember thinking that they were very wrong. I was partly right, but overly harsh. I’m finding myself this game wanting to trust plus. Which maybe should give me pause? Like plus is making some sense, but it’s also a decently strong defense of shellyc/Noraa that I’m having trouble fighting against. Though it’s also based on an interpretation of the NK, which isn’t reliable.

I’ll agree that if Noraa flips Scum, then look at plus and Johnny is probably Town. I think you’re Town.

I don’t trust nopoint’s attacks on your Claim in particular. I would be fine with nopoint making arguments about your playstyle more, or how your perspective doesn’t make sense. But it’s a very narrow focus, and one which helps avoid contradictions or too much scrutiny.

uh no. you don't shade conftown.

It’s like you say whatever you think will stick, even if it directly disagrees with whatever you said previously. And mind you, this is about the exact same interaction.

[Andresvmb]

I’m not trying to prove I’m Town. I don’t give a crap about that. I’m demonstrating why you’re Scum, and how your arguments are not based in reality, or from a Town perspective.

[Andresvmb]

Yet I directly questioned it, and ended up fighting it. Again, you fail to actually apply what’s happened, but just morph the facts to fit whatever it is you feel like saying. I’m sorry to have to say it again, but it’s not true.

[Andresvmb]

@unwnd you’ll notice now that Noraa has been forced to change their narrative about how my read of shellyc changed, without directly addressing it. Instead, now it’s a story of how I didn’t have the guts to push shellyc, even when confTown plus was disagreeing with me.

This is a great example of the bad faith I was talking about. If it doesn’t fit one way, it sure fits some other way.

[Andresvmb]

My point is that u barely have moments where ur just like "no that's not true"
you normally say "I believe this but I COULD SEE THAT"
its agreeing.
the end result doesn't particularly matter otherwise we'd never catch scum as long as they bus one member.

Are you sure about this?

Main 3 (Nopoint notmaf Hank) with flavor and you as distraction or potential scum if i'm wrong about one in main 3

I really don’t see this solve so I’m very intrigued by it. You have a completely null slot in Hank, Not_Mafia (who I will grant you could be Scum, very difficult to tell for me this early), and nopoint? Huh.

I should have expected that response.

I’m not seeing it, so I’m trying to get more than justifications based on the self-vote play. Flavor clearly posted reads - anything that raised some flags from that?

VOTE: Flavor Leaf

Titus I might understand the context behind this, but do you have any reasoning you want to share for the vote?

No. I am still in RVS. I haven't read at all and want to get wagons going. Since rationing my meds, my reads have gotten worse too so I am letting others lead.

Claiming to still be treating the game as if it were in RVS when you’re pushing the top wagon closer to execution and there’s this many pages of content seems rather difficult to believe wouldn’t you agree? If you haven’t read, why would you put such a dangerous vote down? I’m struggling to understand the logic here.

I think we need to stop townreading flavor for mysterious 'he wouldn't play like this' reasons and hold him to a higher standard, that means elimming him when his play is bad/scummy

I don't trust anyone's read on him that has him as town at this point in time

I don’t understand this post at all. Where has anyone uttered a TR of Flavor based on the fact that he wouldn’t “play this way as Scum”? Can you point me to it? Because off the top of my head, I don’t recall anyone really making that argument.

What specifically about his play has been Scummy to you? Outside of him obviously SR’ing you, how do you think his approach is not from a Town POV?

[Andresvmb]

You know what I think? I think you’re so dead set in painting me as Scum that you’re literally willing to say anything that’ll make me look like Scum. Even if it’s easily refutable. So I am going to stop arguing with you, because it’s pointless, and will just let others intervene.

[Andresvmb]

@unwnd you’ll notice now that Noraa has been forced to change their narrative about how my read of shellyc changed, without directly addressing it. Instead, now it’s a story of how I didn’t have the guts to push shellyc, even when confTown plus was disagreeing with me.

This is a great example of the bad faith I was talking about. If it doesn’t fit one way, it sure fits some other way.

I didn't say that. don't lie.

I’m not.

There is no progression. And I have to say Titus dead really does not be shelly scum at all.

I mean this describes ur stance pretty well except you didn't have the guts to push so you shaded instead.

[Andresvmb]

@plus I hate to say it but you should not have listened to me once nopoint flipped Scum. I am clearly off this game.

I was looking back in shame - I think unwnd is Town. I’m also not voting {plus, Flavor}.

VOTE: geraintm

my faith in you has been shaken quite hard after nopoint and fuzzy tbh

You’re shading me too hard about Fuzzy, and you failed to catch my updated read. If you had shot amongst the people I actually described as Scum and turned out Town, I would agree with you more.

[Andresvmb]

Pfft that is a gross misrepresentation of your Scum game Noraa. All anybody has to do is go read the game I quoted, where you couldn’t get out of a tunnel and were supremely abrasive.

[Andresvmb]

Btw I agree I should be Vigged if Noraa flips Town if only to force the Town to look closer at what’s happening this game.

[Andresvmb]

I don’t think you should Vig geraintm plus - if both Insano and Noraa are pushing there, and Noraa flips Scum, why would you trust them enough to shoot there? That doesn’t make sense.

[Andresvmb]

Pfft that is a gross misrepresentation of your Scum game Noraa. All anybody has to do is go read the game I quoted, where you couldn’t get out of a tunnel and were supremely abrasive.

Which one was that?
And also I think I, a person that has written every single post I've posted and read every single post know better what my meta is that some random person that briefly skimmed a few pages of one of my scum games.

“Briefly skimmed”. I love it.

I didn’t briefly skim. I actually read your posts, and compared them to things you’ve done this game. Just look at my ISO.

[Andresvmb]

Btw I agree I should be Vigged if Noraa flips Town if only to force the Town to look closer at what’s happening this game.

this is very dumb. wtf is this logic?

Why don’t you ask for the logic before calling it dumb? You’re like a fucking child.

[Andresvmb]

I just feel like your tenor toward me between last night and now changed really dramatically. I'm not inclined to totally rule out the possibility that scum bussed, but my FIRST INSTINCT on any scum flip is not to look for bussers, and interaction-wise, that seemed less likely. The idea that no other wagon could gain traction is a weird one to me, given you can see we had 3-vote wagons on me, nora, and johnny at one point (and that's 2 wagons on town fmpov, minimum).

3 votes when you need 7 and the entire Scum Team is alive is not much now is it? That’s my point. If I’m actually trying to protect nopoint, I would have coordinated a wagon with a Town person onto another Town and away from nopoint. I was voting for you by myself. Pretty stupid strategy if I’m trying to do what you’re arguing I was doing. It doesn’t matter - there will be clarity sooner rather than later. I’m just telling you, you’re wrong, and should re-evaluate.

[Andresvmb]

Town never thinks that they are fine with dying if their top SR flips town. That is not a townie mindset.

Again - you’re not even asking me about my logic. You just think you know better than anyone when... you don’t.

I want to be Vigged if you flip Town only to eliminate the possibility of wasting another day on this nonsense. If you are Town, I’m getting executed the next day out of some sense that this course of action is reasonable. It’s not and I’m Town but whatever I want to win. It’ll just be a distraction and we’re better off with me not in the game at that point. I don’t think it’s particularly likely, but I’ll accept it.

[Andresvmb]

Also stop trying to gas me up. The shitfight is over and continuing it is truly babyish.

You keep calling logic you can’t even grasp dumb, and every argument you don’t like terrible. The only person not actually engaging with the content but gaslighting is you. Stop accusing me of doing exactly what you’re doing.

[Andresvmb]

That’s the most obvious pocket attempt I have ever seen.

plus you should absolutely ignore what either Noraa or I want, and discuss with the more obvious Town players in the game to lay out a strategy that’s sensible. I have made my suggestions but you can feel free to ignore anything I’m saying.

[Andresvmb]

Why don’t you quote some of your arguments with Battle Mage?

[Andresvmb]

And you don’t see how abrasive you can be as Scum?

[Andresvmb]

It’s almost what you’re doing here - just calling everything terrible or dumb, using a bunch of sarcasm to bash arguments that get closer to you or your Scummates. Arguing complete nonsense and twisting somebody’s posts to all look like Scum. You were directly called out for that in that game, or you forget?

[Andresvmb]

am I telling everyone to vote you?

Your definition of aggressive or abrasive is so narrow, it’s useless. So unless you directly rally others to vote a certain way, you can’t be aggressive?

[Andresvmb]

You were so under the radar that you had to make posts like this?

viewtopic.php?p=12171271#p12171271

[Andresvmb]

That whiny and reactionary way of posting is exactly your Scum meta, and it’s exactly what you’re doing here.

[Andresvmb]

I didn’t skim properly? All anybody has to do is follow the link I attached, and they can make their own conclusions.

[Andresvmb]

The day 1 elimination thought I was scum and that was it lol. u really didn't skim well.

You’re lying:
viewtopic.php?p=12188123&user_select%5B ... #p12188123.
viewtopic.php?p=12195771#p12195771
viewtopic.php?p=12195848#p12195848

I could go and find more but why bother? It’s obvious you’re misrepresenting what happened in that game.

[Andresvmb]

Whatever I don’t even care all that much about that game. My point very much stands - you are trying to paint yourself as an agreeable, UTR Scum who always lives until the end and is never suspected. It’s just not the case. plus was in that game too.

[Andresvmb]

Lol ur gonna go link some posts from after I got guiltied?

Why do you think you were checked? Any guesses? Because you were the paragon of Town?

And the Battle Mage post I quoted came in D1. Try again.

[Andresvmb]

Again, I’m not pointing to that game for the actual outcome. I’m pointing to that game so that others can understand how you react under pressure as Scum. You went whiny and aggressive. Just like you’re doing here. You’re overly focused on the result - not so focused on how you respond.

[Andresvmb]

Okay I got a bit confused with the mechanics. Yes, Battle Mage had you as their top TR. That caused a check that exposed you. So I take back my conclusion on Battle Mage.

But still, you keep focusing on the result. I am right about how you reacted under pressure, and the sort of arguments you make as Scum. You weren’t UTR. If you had been, nobody would have had strong feelings about your slot.

For example, had Fuzzy been Scum, you would call that UTR a bit. Or if geraintm flipped Scum.

[Andresvmb]

Again, I’m not pointing to that game for the actual outcome. I’m pointing to that game so that others can understand how you react under pressure as Scum. You went whiny and aggressive. Just like you’re doing here. You’re overly focused on the result - not so focused on how you respond.

you did some jackshit skimming and come pointing ur damn finger at me. none of ur points stand even remotely cuz u fucking skimmed like hell.

I am using this game to show I'm town bc this game DOES SHOW IM TOWN. But u are trying so hard to say it doesn't when u can't even get some simple facts right.

I’m not really going to say much about your game overall here until after this is over. Once this game is done, we can discuss.

[Andresvmb]

Sure. Let’s agree to disagree on this one.

[Andresvmb]

@Flavor, I still want you to quantify the odds that Noraa is Town here.

[Andresvmb]

I am VT.

@Noraa, Insano, your turn.

[Andresvmb]

Sorry, Insano already claimed Bodyguard. I meant Unwnd.

[Andresvmb]

Our gameplan:
9 people alive today' insaneo protects plusjoyed. We lim and shoot and mafia shoots, and we're at 6 tomorrow. With plus alive we repeat and go to 3 alive

So protecting plusjoyed tonight is important because we get 4 town kills, 2 mafia kills. But is plus dies we have 3 town kills 3 mafia kills

We won’t get that far unless we hit Scum. But yes the plan should be to protect plus tonight. That’s the only part that should be completely fixed.

[Andresvmb]

I think killing Gera now would be a more peaceful solution with letting the vig decide between Noraa/Andres tonight. I think Noraa feels like everyone is against her and if she's scum then she's just going to continue to turtle and do the same things she's doing. Andres so far doesn't seem interested in doing anything but defending himself and accusing Noraa all the same, and I am quite tired of it and not willing to entertain either lim.

I’m sorry but you’re not reading my posts if this is what you actually think. I’ve done more than just defend myself. I had a productive back to back with Insanoflex as well, which reveals some insistence on interpreting the game without Scum bussing despite the points I’ve put forth.

[Andresvmb]

Also, I’m not moving my vote onto geraintm. I am not compromising with my two biggest SR’s. You are going to have to find the votes without me.

[Andresvmb]

I think killing Gera now would be a more peaceful solution with letting the vig decide between Noraa/Andres tonight. I think Noraa feels like everyone is against her and if she's scum then she's just going to continue to turtle and do the same things she's doing. Andres so far doesn't seem interested in doing anything but defending himself and accusing Noraa all the same, and I am quite tired of it and not willing to entertain either lim.

I’m sorry but you’re not reading my posts if this is what you actually think. I’ve done more than just defend myself. I had a productive back to back with Insanoflex as well, which reveals some insistence on interpreting the game without Scum bussing despite the points I’ve put forth.

I've skimmed it because I can't find the clarity in your posts and would prefer if you just told me your thoughts while disengaged

2018, 2025.

[Andresvmb]

I think Dunn's plan is fine and I think it's self-resolving, PlusJOYED can get another shot off and if he's killed then Insano is forced to explain why you're dead. I don't know why we're keeping Gera around who is simply unwilling to do anything

Admitting that you can’t get a hold in the game is not typical Scum behavior. I’ve seen a lot of lost Town react the exact same way. That’s giving me pause, personally. I have made some other points previously that raised some red flags for me, but geraintm is insisting on going down the same route. It’s uncanny.

[Andresvmb]

I don’t think I would see it the same way. Geraintm knows that at some level, if you keep going this way, you’ll get executed. It’s not good for your long-term survival to not put any views forward. So I would question this idea that geraintm is obviously Scummy and should be killed.

[Andresvmb]

I don’t think the Scum, and Noraa possibly, expected me to capably put forth my views and avoid being easily executed after so obviously standing up, in parts, for nopoint. I think the plan was always to try and railroad me today based on a nopoint execution. Now that, for the most part, it hasn’t worked, Noraa is having to look elsewhere. You can even see the pivot - plus pointed it out too.

This is one possible interpretation.

[Andresvmb]

I’m done interacting with Noraa. She told me to shut up multiple times and to stop talking to her directly. I’ll respect the last one because it seems to have come from a place of real out-of-game frustration and I’m not one to get into messy fights too much (though I’ll defend my positions and POV, I’m not a pushover). But I will also continue to vote where I am.

[Andresvmb]

I don’t think I would see it the same way. Geraintm knows that at some level, if you keep going this way, you’ll get executed. It’s not good for your long-term survival to not put any views forward. So I would question this idea that geraintm is obviously Scummy and should be killed.

It's a stretch but he could be afraid of spewing his mate. The PoE is starting to thin out and I can't see myself giving Gera another pass the next day because we agree to disagree. I think Gera will continue to keep this up so long as it's unchecked, because the ultimate goal for scum is to simply survive. The methodology of doing so varies, but I don't see a glimmer of Gera even attempting to care about what's going on.

It’s true that the Scum’s main goal is obviously to just survive. But you don’t achieve that by just existing. It never works. I’m not asking to give geraintm a pass forever. But I am not willing today to compromise there. If Noraa flips Town, and I get shot, then by all means go for it.

[Andresvmb]

I don't think your solve makes sense from your perspective, Noraa is sitting at E-2(?) and I just make myself look like a goddamn fool if she flips scum. I'm willing to be a fool regardless and don't think Noraa is being dishonest in her discourse towards me nor the way she responded to my wall.

I think you are too soft towards emotional players. Noraa plays emotionally. As either alignment. And you’re giving that a pass and ignoring the obviously Scummy things that have happened with the slot.

[Andresvmb]

Just in case you want to know where that’s coming from. I sat down and read a few ISO’s of Noraa as both Scum and Town. I found other instances where players criticize her for being reactive, emotional, and prone to tunneling.

It’s also why I understand Flavor’s hesitance to call this 90% Scum. Hell, if I was behaving the same way, it’s probably because I’m Scum. But what’s pinging me the most is the insistence. It’s like there was a plan to try and push momentum against me. When it didn’t work, that’s when you see a change. It’s not a natural read progression. It’s not maybe you’re right about this or that, and yeah I might have seen that the wrong way. It’s like a flip switched, and I’m no longer the push.

[Andresvmb]

Just in case you want to know where that’s coming from. I sat down and read a few ISO’s of Noraa as both Scum and Town. I found other instances where players criticize her for being reactive, emotional, and prone to tunneling.

you expect me to believe this after you couldn't even figure out bm wasn't a cop in one game that you "read"

Noraa if you don’t want me to interact with you, then you shouldn’t directly address me and quote my posts.

You don’t have to believe me. I can just direct you to the posts.

See:
viewtopic.php?p=12327460#p12327460
viewtopic.php?p=12330369#p12330369
viewtopic.php?p=12330425#p12330425

And in on the games you were Town that I looked through, The Golden Paradox made fun of you for tunneling other Town players (you were Town).

[Andresvmb]

You think I did all that work in 5 minutes? Or do you actually believe that I looked through some of your games?

[Andresvmb]

That made me laugh, not in a 'haha you're wrong way' more like 'haha you got me figured me out'. I try to see the objectivity in games but as I said before, people aren't robots. I'm very attuned to emotions and believe that while we tell ourselves yes, this is a game, our emotions lead on more then we want them to. Is it not true that you got upset/annoyed at Noraa earlier? We're not in a room together and I can't see your face. I'm sure as you were typing towards Noraa it was mostly a blank expression but inside you let your contempt take the form of your words. This is basically me saying as objective as I want to be, I still see the tonal exchanges and put them in consideration.

Yes, I was annoyed. But I really shouldn’t. I mean if Noraa is actually Scum, then what she’s doing meets the win criteria I guess and is somewhat valid. I get more upset at the disrespect, and this implied idea that filters through a lot of Noraa’s posts that no one else can make valid points, or that she can never be wrong.

[Andresvmb]

That made me laugh, not in a 'haha you're wrong way' more like 'haha you got me figured me out'. I try to see the objectivity in games but as I said before, people aren't robots. I'm very attuned to emotions and believe that while we tell ourselves yes, this is a game, our emotions lead on more then we want them to. Is it not true that you got upset/annoyed at Noraa earlier? We're not in a room together and I can't see your face. I'm sure as you were typing towards Noraa it was mostly a blank expression but inside you let your contempt take the form of your words. This is basically me saying as objective as I want to be, I still see the tonal exchanges and put them in consideration.

Yes, I was annoyed. But I really shouldn’t. I mean if Noraa is actually Scum, then what she’s doing meets the win criteria I guess and is somewhat valid. I get more upset at the disrespect, and this implied idea that filters through a lot of Noraa’s posts that no one else can make valid points, or that she can never be wrong.

lol and you like flavor. that's funny.

Did I or did I not call out Flavor for the way they were interacting with you in your exchange?

[Andresvmb]

And in on the games you were Town that I looked through, The Golden Paradox made fun of you for tunneling other Town players (you were Town).

what's ur point huh? trying to tell me I'm tunneling town?

I’m not trying to tell you anything. You are tunneling Town. Whether you’re doing it as Town or Scum I don’t know for sure.

[Andresvmb]

One last time, STOP USING MY META
YOU SUCK AT READING GAMES
I don't care if you think ur a meta expert if ur town. UR NOT.

Did I ever claim to be an expert? Or even good at the game?

What I was looking for is some validation from other players that I’m not insane. That the same way I’m perceiving your game play here somebody else spotted in another game. I don’t think meta is tremendously useful to figure out alignment unless you’ve played with someone like multiple, multiple times and you really can pick up on their idiosyncrasies. I am by no means claiming that I can. What I am claiming is that your statement, that you aren’t abrasive or combative as Scum, is clearly not true because others in games you were Scum have called you out on it. Whether they were right or wrong, or the behavior is the same across games, I can’t really know.

[Andresvmb]

@Mod I’ve held my tongue a lot but I am not really deserving of some of these reactions by Noraa. I haven’t been unfair, or particularly aggressive, and I’m being attacked in ways that I think go a little beyond the game.

I have a thick skin so I don’t really care, but it’s beginning to sour this experience and making it hard to play.

[Andresvmb]

Well Noraa was just hammered so I guess that’s that.

[Andresvmb]

Not_Mafia was checked by Dunn so unless you think that Dunn is also part of the Team, Not_Mafia is not Scum.

[Andresvmb]

@plus this reaction by unwnd is kind of weird. Maybe take a second look.

[Andresvmb]

Or shoot me I don’t really care.

[Andresvmb]

Shoot andres. Even if he's town, he deserves it.

Fuck off. You are terrible at the game and I’m glad you have been executed even if you’re Town.

[Andresvmb]

I was calling you Town before you went all insane against my slot. Hopefully somebody gives you a spoiler so you stop ranting like a crazy person.

[Andresvmb]

Shoot andres. Even if he's town, he deserves it.

Fuck off. You are terrible at the game and I’m glad you have been executed even if you’re Town.

Lol don't think ur lucky, scum. ur dying tomorrow.

Just wait until you get to the Dead Thread. You’re just making yourself look foolish now.

[Andresvmb]

I’m not going to keep responding to your immaturity. I suggest you take the advice and wait until you’re out of the game.

[Andresvmb]

@plus, do seriously take another look at unwnd.

[Andresvmb]

@plus, do seriously take another look at unwnd.

Seriously vig this

Why? So plus shouldn’t look carefully at a player whose first reaction to the potential elimination of a Town player was to call the hammer a Godfather? That didn’t strike you as suspicious?

[Andresvmb]

Not_Mafia is known for hammering as any alignment. Your statement is obvious nonsense.

[Andresvmb]

If there was ever a reaction that I felt contained some TMI, it would be yours right then and there.

[Andresvmb]

That’s not the point. Not_Mafia is well known to behave exactly like this in like every game. But you’ll remember that Not_Mafia was the first vote on the nopoint wagon. So no credit for that, huh?

[Andresvmb]

Yeah there was Scum on the wagon alright. It’s not likely to have been the very first vote though on a successful wagon.

[Andresvmb]

Except you can’t possibly have been surprised by Not_Mafia’s vote unless you’ve been living under a rock. So your reaction could be seen as having knowledge of what Noraa will flip.

[Andresvmb]

Yeah there was Scum on the wagon alright. It’s not likely to have been the very first vote though on a successful wagon.

Vote count 2.final

with 12 votes in play, it takes 7 to eliminate. Day 2 ends in (expired on 2020-12-28 12:19:38).

elimination

2. Andresvmb [0]:

3. unwnd [1]:

geraintm#1667

4. Flavor Leaf [0]:

5. Insanoflex [1]:

Andresvmb#1656

6. Noraa [1]:

nopointinactingup#1344

7. PlusJOYED [0]:

8. Not_Mafia [0]:

9. JohnnyFarrar [0]:

10. geraintm [0]:

11. TheFuzzyLogic99 [0]:

12. Dunnstral [0]:

13. nopointinactingup [7 - HAMMER!]:

PlusJOYED#1292, Insanoflex#1577, unwnd#1650, Flavor Leaf#1668, Noraa#1674, JohnnyFarrar#1684, Not_Mafia#1708

no elimination [0]:

Not Voting [2]:

Dunnstral#1418, TheFuzzyLogic99#1564

mod notes

~ I mistaken counted Not_Mafia's vote in 1558 as on unwnd, when it was actually on nopointinactingup. It will be treated in the vote log as a vote for unwnd, sorry for the confusion.
~ unwnd V/LA
~ TheFuzzyLogic99 V/LA through Christmas

Spoiler: vote log

Day 2 vote log

Post 681: PlusJOYED votes nopointinactingup
Post 682: Andresvmb votes Noraa
Post 685: Not_Mafia votes nopointinactingup
Post 701: JohnnyFarrar votes Noraa
Post 705: Dunnstral votes Flavor Leaf
Post 715: Flavor Leaf votes unwnd
Post 744: Noraa votes JohnnyFarrar
Post 751: nopointinactingup votes Flavor Leaf
Post 812: Dunnstral votes Insanoflex
Post 835: JohnnyFarrar votes Insanoflex
Post 837: Noraa votes geraintm
Post 841: Not_Mafia votes Noraa
Post 843: nopointinactingup votes Insanoflex
Post 845: Noraa votes Not_Mafia
Post 859: TheFuzzyLogic99 votes unwnd
Post 864: Flavor Leaf votes Insanoflex
Post 865: Flavor Leaf votes unwnd
Post 877: Insanoflex votes nopointinactingup
Post 885: geraintm votes nopointinactingup
Post 898: geraintm votes JohnnyFarrar
Post 938: PlusJOYED votes JohnnyFarrar
Post 943: TheFuzzyLogic99 votes unvote
Post 959: Insanoflex votes unwnd
Post 961: unwnd votes JohnnyFarrar
Post 1068: Noraa votes Flavor Leaf
Post 1086: Flavor Leaf votes Noraa
Post 1212: Insanoflex votes Noraa
Post 1263: TheFuzzyLogic99 votes Insanoflex
Post 1289: TheFuzzyLogic99 votes JohnnyFarrar
Post 1290: TheFuzzyLogic99 votes nopointinactingup
Post 1292: PlusJOYED votes nopointinactingup
Post 1316: Flavor Leaf votes nopointinactingup
Post 1344: nopointinactingup votes Noraa
Post 1360: Noraa votes nopointinactingup
Post 1415: unwnd votes unvote
Post 1417: Insanoflex votes unvote
Post 1418: Dunnstral votes unvote
Post 1444: Insanoflex votes unwnd
Post 1483: geraintm votes unvote
Post 1522: Noraa votes JohnnyFarrar
Post 1558: Not_Mafia votes unwnd
Post 1564: TheFuzzyLogic99 votes unvote
Post 1577: Insanoflex votes nopointinactingup
Post 1587: Flavor Leaf votes Noraa
Post 1613: JohnnyFarrar votes Noraa
Post 1615: unwnd votes Andresvmb
Post 1626: Andresvmb votes nopointinactingup
Post 1644: Andresvmb votes TheFuzzyLogic99
Post 1650: unwnd votes nopointinactingup
Post 1656: Andresvmb votes Insanoflex
Post 1667: geraintm votes unwnd
Post 1668: Flavor Leaf votes nopointinactingup
Post 1674: Noraa votes nopointinactingup
Post 1684: JohnnyFarrar votes nopointinactingup
Post 1708: Not_Mafia votes nopointinactingup

He was the last lol

I was expecting this reaction.

Go back and check. Not_Mafia was there first. Their vote was miscounted, and so they re-voted as the hammer.

[Andresvmb]

The self-vote obviously gave me pause. But my reaction wasn’t to assume anything. It was just surprise at the quickness of the elimination. You went for the immediate discredit.

[Andresvmb]

I’ve also been consistently (and wrongly) attacked by Noraa for like forever. Did you expect me to be like oh damn, I didn’t want that to happen? No. Of course I’m relieved Noraa is finally out of the game.

[Andresvmb]

The self-vote obviously gave me pause. But my reaction wasn’t to assume anything. It was just surprise at the quickness of the elimination. You went for the immediate discredit.

...What discredit?

Are you seriously arguing that calling someone a Godfather is not a discredit?

[Andresvmb]

I don’t know why you did it. All I know is that your reaction heavily implies that you have some knowledge of what Noraa will flip. You could have yelled at Not_Mafia for hammering out of nowhere and not giving you enough time to process the self-vote. But that’s not what you did.

[Andresvmb]

Whatever this is just a hunch. I don’t really care what plus does and frankly I don’t really care to fight much anymore. I haven’t been particularly good this game so all my views should be viewed through that lens.

[Andresvmb]

@plus, I give you permission to shoot me.

And just so we’re clear, the one that started tunneling here wasn’t me. It was Noraa. So at the very fucking least place the blame where it’s deserved.

[Andresvmb]

For somebody that really can’t handle an argument, you sure as hell like to say a lot.

Oh my god stop talking to me I can’t deal with it anymore.

[Andresvmb]

STOP MISREPRESENTING ME. STOP. YOU DON’T KNOW MY META.

[Andresvmb]

STOP. SHUT UP. YOU’RE SCUM. ALL YOUR ARGUMENTS ARE TERRIBLE.

[Andresvmb]

Even when trying to be witty you fail. Amazing.

[Andresvmb]

OMG STOP DROWNING ME OUT.

[Andresvmb]

SHUT UP SCUM. YOU’RE SCUM. BECAUSE I SAY SO AND YOU’RE A NOOB.

[Andresvmb]

You’re just a whiny shit. This would be funny if I didn’t actually think you were Town and playing straight into Scum’s hands. You’re literally Town’s worst fear. A player that is confident for no reason at all, and doesn’t have the game to back it up.

And you are wrong. You’ll know soon enough.

If there’s any positive to take from this, is that I will quote this game forever as good reason to discard some of the things you say. Particularly the ones you seem most convinced about.

[Andresvmb]

@plus if you actually listen to Noraa, I’m never letting you live it down.

[Andresvmb]

You don’t know what I’ve done since the game hasn’t ended.

[Andresvmb]

Nah just because you’re Town doesn’t make you right. It just means you’re Town.

[Andresvmb]

And I’m sorry but your track record isn’t particularly strong. You said so yourself - you’re shit Town.

[Andresvmb]

Wait, why are you revealing at this stage that you lied about your claim? Why not wait until tomorrow? And you still think that Noraa is Scum despite the amount of drivel she’s spewed after being hammered?

[Andresvmb]

Well at least I am glad that unwnd revealed themselves there.

I suppose I’ll go for geraintm but to be honest, I don’t know that I’m totally certain it’s correct.

Also Not_Mafia, eliminating me before geraintm would be ridiculous.

[Andresvmb]

So Flavor is practically Confirmed Town, which really should make the rest of the game a lot easier.

[Andresvmb]

I actually don’t think Noraa’s Vig pool is bad if she is town.

If she is scum, don’t shoot Andres, shoot Insaneo or geraint.

These are horrendous vig choices though

Flavor was Informed about the Vig Enabler, which they correctly claimed and where not CC’ed. It should be obvious to you why.

[Andresvmb]

But if it must be said, the Scum did not want to have a 1v1 with a member of the Town.

[Andresvmb]

Nah, I conceded.

I can’t win.

Andres fade today, Geraint shot, I’m stuck with conftown in lylo.

The Vig can’t shoot though.

[Andresvmb]

I mean sure I’ll take the win. But still, that’s a lame way to win haha

[Andresvmb]

Wait, what just happened?

[Andresvmb]

Did you really think for a second there that Noraa was right about my slot?

[Andresvmb]

i think this sets fl as the last maf yeah?
also should be obvious but I can't shoot anymore

I’m trying to figure out why Flavor would reveal the presence of an Enabler in the Scum Team though. Like I have been going back and forth about it and at first it just seems kind of silly. It seems like the sort of thing that Flavor as Town would do.

[Andresvmb]

Flavor said that he was Informed about the presence of a Vig Enabler. I don’t know if that’s coming from Town but I don’t get why the revelation at all. It’s not like Flavor has been playing to protect unwnd so it doesn’t make sense to me that Flavor is Scum here.

[Andresvmb]

Yeah I know. The game with you as Scum makes no sense at all. I was at first surprised at the lie (you see my reaction towards the end of the day) but it didn’t seem coordinated with players that we now know are Scum.

[Andresvmb]

I just don’t think Flavor would box themselves by claiming the role of a Partner unless there was a dire strategic need for it. There just isn’t one here. unwnd could have claimed it and it would have helped with their survival, not hindered. Like Flavor took away a strategic play by a Partner that was under suspicion. It makes no sense to me that Flavor would be Scum.

[Andresvmb]

hmm ok
I think last maf is in FL, gera, or andres

If you think I started pointing to unwnd at the end of the day as the Partner, then you really must think I am an idiot.

[Andresvmb]

Also, it needs to be said. Insanoflex definitely protected correctly overnight, and deserves praise for it. That move makes all of the difference for us, because we were having an argument yesterday and it could have hindered us today.

[Andresvmb]

I could definitely see you claiming enabler as scum though
also kudos to good play by insaneo for tricking mafia n2 and n3, I would've totally wasted my shot n2

It doesn’t help the Scum Team though. Whenever Flavor has made a claim as Scum, it’s been to the Team’s benefit. Friendly Neighborizer has been my favorite so far. But it doesn’t hinder the options of a teammate. You know the Scum have been thinking about it, because the Mafia Watcher claimed Enabler. So it just doesn’t make sense.

[Andresvmb]

i think i have a solve now

this is pretty speculative but nopoint saying "maf don't want to stall they want to elim townies" felt genuine to me. I think nopoint was annoyed as maf that he didnt get a mislim. This makes me think that he probably talked in maf chat about his frustration n1 and got some sort of resonance with maf. He'd probably want to push inactive maf slots to join a wagon otherwise. To me the other person most frusterated with inactivity day 1 was uwnd, so this kind of implicates him to me but the idea is a bit of a stretch.

uwnd's suggestion really pinged me. since uwnd knew I'd very likely shoot between gera and uwnd after noraa elim, he was very survivalistic for a VT suggesting that we elim gera and have me choose between andres and noraa: too much self-preservation for a VT imo.

therefore, my solve is nopoint/noraa/uwnd.

this was the reasoning for my uwnd shot btw, curious if it holds up

The fact that unwnd was trying to get the shot to be between Noraa and me should also help you out I think.

[Andresvmb]

Anyway I always recognize that I can be wrong.

I am going to most certainly vote geraintm today. And I hope that ends the game.

[Andresvmb]

VOTE: geraintm

I’m pretty set on this being the vote today for me. It’s what makes the most sense.

[Andresvmb]

If I was Scum Flavor, I would be pushing for your death right here, right now. I also think you would be pushing for mine, for what it’s worth. Because we both could maybe win a 1v1 with geraintm tomorrow (say if one of us was Scum), but at least from my perspective I don’t know that I would survive a confrontation with you for the game, particularly since I’ve made more mistakes.

[Andresvmb]

Look I’m not Scum. So provided it’s not you and I haven’t been defending you stupidly, then tomorrow won’t happen at all.

[Andresvmb]

@Not_Mafia if the Scum wanted Flavor to claim Enabler, why did nopoint spent so much time trying to discredit the Claim?

[Andresvmb]

^spend*

[Andresvmb]

You would agree that at the very least, Claims among Scum members are coordinated yeah? Distancing happens all the time, but you really think the Team has been trying to destroy each other the whole time? Look at how geraintm has been treating nopoint and unwnd. That strikes me far more like the typical distancing you see.

[Andresvmb]

I am 90% sure Unwnd is scum, and I would have been okay flipping them with a coinflip odds.

I don’t know that this is the sort of thing Partners post about each other haha it way too aggressive. The wishy washy post geraintm made (where they incorrectly voted for nopoint and corrected it to Johnny in a subsequent post) is more typical.

[Andresvmb]

Yeah @Flavor the temper tantrum here is not warranted.

[Andresvmb]

trying to get a handle on the game before the long holidays.

first, titus didn't have any votes on them the whole of yesterday.

today:: noraa's votes seem are just ignorable. I cannot get a read on that slot at all.
nopoint's are mirroring Dunnstral's

looking at the votes yesterday, JohnnyF's were where I wanted to start. 3 of the last 9 were their's, so wanted to see how likely there were to be scum trying to get a free elimination

Dunn, Unwnd, Not Mafia, and Nopoint all have wagons that aren’t able to gain momentum.

There is scum in there.

Lez do this

VOTE: nopoint

I'm back.

Let's actually do this
VOTE: not maf

And if you don't wanna, tell me why not.

VOTE: shelz

I basically hate these votes. and their day 2 play is not much better. I am happy to mark them down as pretty suspicious, esp as one of the 3 people they tried to kill yesterday was Not Mafia who we have as a clear today.

NExt, wi wanted ot look at anyone else who was trying to push any elimination at the end of day 1, NoPoint is the only other one I wanted to check.

548 is a long explanation oof why Dunnstral is scum. and then 599 is a vote for Shelly (now Noraa). the switch from Dunn to Shelly got 2 votes to follow, could have switched back to Dunn at deadline neared to get some more momentum up to 4 votes...
I dunno. I am really stretching there. I can see it scummy if I want to, but day 2 I am going to give them a pass for now.

NoPoint, I think had votes on 4 different people yesterday, today there isn't anything strong about their feelings from what I can see. the vote for hank is to just get rid of a low activity slot. post 851 is very wishy washy

Plusjoyed - a low activity slot day 1. post 726 is useful to peg on them their future changes in reads, but that is pretty much the sum of them. I could see them being scum and their low activity day 1 being one of the reasons nothing got pushed to a successful elimination.

Unwnd - dislike their votes from yesterday. the vote of Flavour asking for shelly for opinion. a vote out of howhere on Hank. leans summy to me but like a lot of players there isn't much to go on.

fuzzy logic - ah man, another slot I can't read well. I do like their vote on unwnd today, but that is a much as I have.

boy, this is hard work trying to read people. I think I am going to VOTE: Nopoint but i'd go to Unwnd too

I am a total idiot. I meant to
VOTE: johnnyf
not the one I did. please ignore totally that previous error.

This is what I’m talking about.

It’s like geraintm was told where they had placed their vote by their teammates, recognized the error and corrected it immediately haha I mean c’mon.

[Andresvmb]

Scum is Geraint and Andres, and I'm kind of sick of you not knowing anything about games, and causing scum to win.

Care to clarify?

[Andresvmb]

Sure. I mean yeah from your POV I would agree. From my POV it’s either geraintm or Flavor, but I really don’t think it’s you Flavor.

[Andresvmb]

I am 90% sure Unwnd is scum, and I would have been okay flipping them with a coinflip odds.

I don’t know that this is the sort of thing Partners post about each other haha it way too aggressive. The wishy washy post geraintm made (where they incorrectly voted for nopoint and corrected it to Johnny in a subsequent post) is more typical.

Unwnd and Nopoint both spent like the entire game trying to not allow me to gain momentum.

They tried to shut me down from the beginning. Even Geraint started pushing an anti town rhetoric towards me.

Unwnd and Nopoint are the reason that I didn't care about this game because they pointlessly targeted me, and it was too early in the game for me to reliably see that they were scum piling up on me.

I spent the first half of Day 2 pushing Unwnd/Nopoint as scum, Noraa replaces in, does her annoying thing, distracts, uses bad logic, distracts me.

I also call out Unwnd, but he did handle that pretty well, so I didn't think he was a Vig Enabler.

Look what happens after I claim Vig Enabler.

Nopoint goes to discredit me KNOWING Unwnd is a Vig Enabler, and Unwnd disappears for a while while I focus on Noraa/Nopoint.

Noraa was pushing Johnny as scum. No point was pushing Noraa and I as a scum team.

I easily, EASILY, could have gotten Johnny or Noraa faded there if I was scum.

You don’t have to convince me yeah? I came into today calling you practically Confirmed Town. I think it’s obvious where I think you stand.

[Andresvmb]

I feel like quoting that Not_Mafia post with all the cows right around now.

[Andresvmb]

@Dunn what do you think?

[Andresvmb]

What? I didn’t set anything up. That’s ridiculous. I would never have tried to steer the shot towards my Partner there, ever. I would have either kept quiet or agreed with you then, since if I’m Scum you had it all wrong Flavor. I don’t understand why you’re going down this path. Like I said I made a few mistakes, but c’mon you don’t seriously think I get this emotionally invested as Scum. You have said that yourself in the past.

[Andresvmb]

What? I didn’t set anything up. That’s ridiculous. I would never have tried to steer the shot towards my Partner there, ever. I would have either kept quiet or agreed with you then, since if I’m Scum you had it all wrong Flavor. I don’t understand why you’re going down this path. Like I said I made a few mistakes, but c’mon you don’t seriously think I get this emotionally invested as Scum. You have said that yourself in the past.

if you thought you were gonna get shot it might've been to set uwnd as the deepwolf or reverse psychology since I said I wouldn't trust you after shooting fuzzy.

Do you really believe I would have trusted unwnd as the deep wolf? If I’m Scum I’ve played it a lot better. I would have used whatever clout I had left with you to try and direct the shot away from the Team, not towards my Partner. The Scum are in a horrendous position right now, where they have to win 2 1v1s to win. Nobody would willingly put themselves here.

[Andresvmb]

Flavor what the hell are you doing?

[Andresvmb]

So are you trying to argue here that I was in some sort of cahoots with unwnd to eliminate you Flavor?

[Andresvmb]

maybe
andres is my strongest non-mechanical (as in roles/claims not being a thing) TRs personally.
But POE is tightening for me
I think andres, Noraa are dayplay wise town
I think either nopoint or johny is town and other maf
Notmafia and dunn gotta be town
FL is town

that leaves insano, gera, uwnd, or fuzzy as the 2 remaining scum slots in my book. I think uwnd is probably scum, he's been trying to slow things down as of late and talking himself up. I'll probably shoot him if nopoint flips red today.

if I had to guess a solve it'd be nopoint/uwnd/insano.

On play, andres looks town, yeah. But I went back and noticed he was making some pretty strained defenses of nopoint, and for all his posting looks town, he hasn't really driven the game in any direction, and I feel as though today he's started to coast quite a bit. Just a theory that's contingent partly on nopoint's flip. I know people don't trust me because of Hank's play, and I don't really have a problem getting flipped at some point, just want to give people something to consider after I flip.

I know you think I'm scum for whatever reasons you have but I'd love to flip here and think I can convince you otherwise.

VOTE: Andres

I agree with your take, but I also don't get where you're defeatist and keep saying things like 'well just flip me', because while I don't have insight about your play as town, I think you know yourself well enough to where you were able to emulate good thoughts that always gave me pause in the Mini Normal. I think Andres' speaks from a perspective that is heady analysis but nothing ever surfaces from it. I noted where I would actively have conversation with Andres prior D1 (I think even today) and it seemed like we both walked away from the conversation pretty listless. I don't know what end he gets into these arguments like they matter for him, and the more he continues to do it, the more it seems like only an appeal.

Because you’re ignoring stuff like this.

[Andresvmb]

@Andres - You just saw me take out threats nonstop in a game, why would I make my wagon flip more townies on my own wagon?

Which is why Flavor is throwing shade to the only other person on their wagon. Again, I’m not buying it.

like why?

Why wouldn't I?

Consider me confirmed town for a second, give me 2 reasons why I wouldn't, andres.

No I get it. I understand why you would perceive the game the way that you are. I would just a different argument. I can’t be convinced about something if the only way to get me to see something is by literally knowing what you know. Does that make sense?

Andres defending my pushes against scum again

This is a stretch even for you.

[Andresvmb]

@Andres - You just saw me take out threats nonstop in a game, why would I make my wagon flip more townies on my own wagon?

Which is why Flavor is throwing shade to the only other person on their wagon. Again, I’m not buying it.

like why?

Why wouldn't I?

Consider me confirmed town for a second, give me 2 reasons why I wouldn't, andres.

No I get it. I understand why you would perceive the game the way that you are. I would just a different argument. I can’t be convinced about something if the only way to get me to see something is by literally knowing what you know. Does that make sense?

Andres defending my pushes against scum again

This is a stretch even for you.

I'm just doing possibilities.

If you are scum, I am 100% correct.

What is going on with you? And if I’m Town? Have you stopped and considered that what you’re doing is ruinous if we’re actually the same alignment?

Doing “possibilities” is dumb. There’s 1 Scum left. And the options are extremely limited, from either one of our points of view. Commit. If you think I’m Scum vote me then.

[Andresvmb]

what's going fucking on is I'm fucking obviously town and had a strong fucking game, and yet players who can't analyze games correctly are going to cost the game.

And yet you’re pushing me so clearly you’re not immune to this nonsense then.

[Andresvmb]

Have people read my post 885? I clearly in it picked out Johnny as the most suspicious person, and made an error with who I voted for that I later corrected. I'm not sure why people are reading so much into it.
I said over night that I thought I was like 40% to get shot, and just disappointed in my play but rolling vanilla town for something like the 8th time in 9 games ...I just dont know how to play well as a townie with no info. My motto is do jo harm, just hope the more informed players can solve the game.

You actually have a lot of information if you bother to look. I can’t say I’m impressed with this.

[Andresvmb]

VOTE: unwnd

I’ll place this here for now.

The explanation in my head is a bit whacky, but I’ve yet to be able to identify Scum D1 on this forum, so I am trying to think outside of the box. I think unwnd was taking too strong a stance in the Dunnstral v. Nopointinactingup dust up between 94 and 105, while leaving Dunn as a Null Read in 149. One way to interpret this could be of Scum that is eager to encourage a fight between two Town, while leaving the other player for a future push if they’re wrong. Outside of that, I don’t find unwnd’s posts particularly Scummy, so it’s a hard one.

Also, I think shellyc is asking the right questions so I’ll maintain my TR there.

This was my first vote in the game.

Like Flavor I really don’t understand what you’re doing. You’re not the only one that decided that unwnd could be Scum D1. If anything you were trying to convince me that Dunn was Scum and wouldn’t join me on unwnd.

[Andresvmb]

^first real vote*

I had a vote for shellyc in RVS.

[Andresvmb]

But I haven’t been arguing against you. I already said that I can’t make sense of you as Scum because of the downright destructive behavior between you, nopoint and unwnd. But I also know I’m not Scum, and you do need me executed to win if you’re Scum.

I have seen conversations amongst Scum members where the objective is to have everybody attack each other from the very beginning to create maximum distance. But it’s rare. It’s not the typical approach. So I resort to that only if I think it’s a must.

[Andresvmb]

Dude whatever if you are going to insist on this, then I don’t know what to tell you. You’re horrendously wrong at a critical time. So either you’re Scum and have to do this, or you’re making the biggest mistake I’ve ever seen you make.

[Andresvmb]

You have consistently been helping Nopoint and Unwnd getting out of situations.

You consistently tried to derail my Nopoint wagon saying "I needed better reasons" when my reasons were 100% accurate and correct.

This is just not true. I questioned your wagon analysis because it hinged 100% on the knowledge that you were Town from your POV. The way you are painting it is just sad to be honest.

[Andresvmb]

The right play when nopoint was so obviously going to get executed (I mean I even mentioned this) would have been to bus. You know it, and I know it. And yet, I decided to stick out like a sore thumb. That’s nonsensical as Scum.

[Andresvmb]

You have consistently been helping Nopoint and Unwnd getting out of situations.

You consistently tried to derail my Nopoint wagon saying "I needed better reasons" when my reasons were 100% accurate and correct.

This is just not true. I questioned your wagon analysis because it hinged 100% on the knowledge that you were Town from your POV. The way you are painting it is just sad to be honest.

It doesn't matter if I was scum there, Unwnd is still scum by VCA.

My Unwnd reasoning 100% correct.

My Nopoint reasoning 100% correct.

You defended both of them.

This is false. You’re painting my entire game play here as doing something I clearly was not doing. I wasn’t the one suggesting the Vig shot go between geraintm and Insanoflex now was I?

[Andresvmb]

Yet unwnd actually flipped Scum. So what you’re saying is just wrong. That was obviously a terrific shot.

[Andresvmb]

Like you’re acting like you haven’t made a single mistake and all you’ve been pushing is Scum. It’s just not true. And it’s annoying that you claim that all I’ve done is defend nopoint and unwnd. I’m not going to just let that stand. It’s utterly incorrect.

[Andresvmb]

Are you seriously going to try and paint a post of mine as a Scum slip? C’mon now you can do better than that.

[Andresvmb]

Don't call Geraint scum then act like that's a bad vig shot. You're playing into NM's surface levelness.

I was far more suspicious of unwnd. If you can’t even at least acknowledge that, then you’re just intent on making me look bad for the sake of it.

[Andresvmb]

Are you seriously going to try and paint a post of mine as a Scum slip? C’mon now you can do better than that.

it's obviously never gonna fucking pass as a scum slip, like there's no point to this post or the one I did.

Like come on, you're still fucking discrediting.

Wow, now I’m the one trying to discredit.

I was defending you! Like what game are you reading?! You’re painting my entire game play with an overly broad brush for no good reason at all.

[Andresvmb]

Don't call Geraint scum then act like that's a bad vig shot. You're playing into NM's surface levelness.

I was far more suspicious of unwnd. If you can’t even at least acknowledge that, then you’re just intent on making me look bad for the sake of it.

What does this have to do with anything? This isn't even what's being argued.

What this means is that no, unwnd was a better shot than geraintm. unwnd was suspicious, and would have been harder to execute out of the two (assuming both unwnd and geraintm are Scum). So no, you’re wrong.

[Andresvmb]

I’m not even sure this is a true concession or Flavor is just trying to AtE the crap out of the endgame.

[Andresvmb]

Okay that’s a bizarre ending.

[Andresvmb]

Flavor had a decent chance to beat me there I think.

[Andresvmb]

If there’s anything I’m happy about this crap game of mine, is that I was right about the Scum bussing the crap out of nopoint.

Other than that, I’m going to forget I was a part of this Town.

[Andresvmb]

Also, @Noraa I would like to apologize for letting it get so personal. We should have tried to be more civil to one another. And I’m sorry for the insults I directed your way. I was wrong about that.

[Andresvmb]

Thanks @IV for modding the game. I had a fun despite some down moments here and there.

[Andresvmb]

I don't understand how no one instantly voted him when he'd claimed the flipped mafia role. That should have been automatic.

But other than that, GG, nice job PlusJOYED.

He retracted the claim prior to the flip though, to be totally fair.

[Andresvmb]

I don't understand how no one instantly voted him when he'd claimed the flipped mafia role. That should have been automatic.

But other than that, GG, nice job PlusJOYED.

He retracted the claim prior to the flip though, to be totally fair.

It’s also a bad Claim if you think about it. That’s what confused me so much about it.

[Andresvmb]

GG scum and thanks iv for hosting, nice set-up.

Excellent bodyguard shot insano

Yep I have to admit, that alone won Town the game. It made it super narrow.

Let me guess, you picked plus?

[Andresvmb]

GG scum and thanks iv for hosting, nice set-up.

Excellent bodyguard shot insano

Yep I have to admit, that alone won Town the game. It made it super narrow.

Let me guess, you picked plus?

Yeah it was plusjoyed, all actions are in the mod PT

I hadn’t checked that yet. Nice! I would have done the same.

[Andresvmb]

So why did the Scum shoot there and not you? I also don’t get that.

[Andresvmb]

Also, @Noraa I would like to apologize for letting it get so personal. We should have tried to be more civil to one another. And I’m sorry for the insults I directed your way. I was wrong about that.

I was very angry from Flavor's personal attacks and half that anger that I directed at you was directly from him. I'm sorry you didn't deserve that.

It’s alright. For me whatever happens in game stays in game.

[Andresvmb]

Fuck dude trusting my instincts with flavo next time

I do remember you saying it!

[Andresvmb]

i fucked up the night 3 flip briefly, sorry to anyone who saw that

luckily wasn't a big deal but I will try to be more careful in the future because it could've been bad

thanks for playing and hope it was fun for the most part

yeah gj host i had fun shooting people

plus I’m glad you TR me. I think we did okay together here. And your shot was awesome! I hope I helped with that just a bit.