Mini 611 - Troy, Meet Helen (Game Over)

[Thesp]

Hi all! Give me a moment to read through the thread, and I'll find out who the scum are for you.

[Thesp]

Hrmph. Looks like I'm outed. Yuck.

I like Battousai.

Netlava, Tinsley & farside22 are scum.

My apologies to the rest of you for ruining this game by discovering the scum already, I'm sure you would have had loads of fun figuring it out for yourselves while they picked you off one by one.

Netlava, claim or die.

[Thesp]

farside22 didn't scumhunt. Sorry, Farkshinsoup, that you inherited an already-caught scum role. Tinsley pops up when his name is called, and rarely otherwise. (There are more reasons, but that's a broad brush to work with, at least.)

Will claim later if there's no chance of Walnut getting lynched.

Vote: Netlava.

[Thesp]

No. Die.

[Thesp]

Thesp, who did you investigate? Why? Why shouldn't we lynch you?

I investigated Battousai, because I didn't have much of a read on him, and thought there was very little info on him (and suspected he wouldn't be nightkilled). Awesome choice that turned out to be. I got no result whatsoever (which could be the work of a roleblocker, or the fact that I investigated a dead person).

Tinsley, speculating as to why Batt was NK'ed is the absolute dumbest thing we can do.

I actually disagree with this, to some extent. I think nightkills can provide useful information, but less so when they're discussed, if that makes any sense. I think personal, non-discussed reflection on why someone was killed can be valuable (and is tainted once presented as such). I do like the Tinsley hate here.

Had was horribly scummy, and Thesp isn't as clever as he thinks he is.

Hrmph. Looks like I'm outed. Yuck.

OK.. Just for clairity....

Are you confirming your predecessor's claim?

I read it as yes, you are.

This is correct. I am a cop whose suggestion of distrustfulness in the flavor implies to me that I may be paranoid. (This may be why my predecessor claimed to have an unknown sanity, which is otherwise redundant.)

If we have a vig, F- for not shooting Walnut last night.

I like you.

And yes, I was the first person to vote Netlava. My big case on him was the first major thing pointing suspicion at him. I think there may have been a few earlier posts by other people pointing out minor things about him, but the wagon more or less started with me. In my defense, my case, and Netlava's scummy behavior, was real. I didn't fabricate any of the things I saw wrong about him and I was pretty dismayed when he flipped town.

Guilty conscience much?

Vote: farkinshoup.

I'm a little bit more open to answering questions today. =P

[Thesp]

How much probative scumhunting did farside22 do? How many posts did she have that looked like they were useful, but went nowhere? How often did she go on tangents away from the centerpoint of discussion?

[Thesp]

That's not evidence that fark is scum...

Did farkinshoup get a different role than farside22?

[Thesp]

I mean all you did was ask rhetorical questions, not cite examples of scummy behavior. You'll have to excuse me if I don't blindly follow your assertions.

Who said they were rhetorical? I'm mildly curious as to your answers to those questions.

[Thesp]

So then your case against fark is me answering questions?

Please do answer the questions, then get back to me.

[Thesp]

Ok, am I the only one who thinks our cop's claim is fishy as hell? Thesp, you made it through the night when you were claimed cop. Now I can see multiple explanations for this, as since it would make you a good target for scum, it would for the same reason make you a good target for Doc. But also the target you investigated just happen to be NK'd. Convenient because he can't verify or reject this result, AND a wonderful excuse if a tracker shows up asking why you went to Batt's last night. And now you're saying your unknown sanity is now probably paranoid. So basically now if you give a real result, we're supposed to say, "This is wrong but he's paranoid so that must be why!"

This must be THE most convenient claim for a scum-as-cop ever.

I realize that.

It should be pointed out, though, from a gamechoice standpoint, that the tracker following me would be a silly choice. There's also no chance I'm making it to the endgame, so if I'm scum, I'm going to be lynched eventually, and if I'm town, I'm going to be killed eventually. (How long can scum leave me alive if I

do

give meaningful results, which they don't know if I do or not yet?)

Also, are you really suggesting that charter doesn't like Tinsley

because Tinsley is thinking too much?

Yeesh.

On an aside, it looked like Tinsley (and/or others?) thought I had forgotten to unvote Netlava yesterday. I was out of town from Thursday afternoon on, but either way I would not have unvoted Netlava (making that moot).

Walnut, what do you think of Tinsley? What do you think of Lord Gurgi?

[Thesp]

everything posted can lead to something useful

I've quoted part of your post that's painfully wrong.

[Thesp]

Now, why does fark get singled out when SG has done NOTHING this entire game.

Because SG is town.

Decreeing Netlava to be scum? That turned out well...

I'm sorry, it looks like the secret is out. I hoped you wouldn't find out this way. Perhaps it's better if you knew, but, if only we could live in happier times where kids were still kids, and life was easy - I kept telling myself that what you didn't know wouldn't hurt you. But now the awful truth is out, and I'm forced to confess...

I'm wrong sometimes.

I am sorry that I was wrong about Netlava's alignment. I think I'm right about some other ones, though.

Also re: farkshinsoup, the way that farside22 did this felt markedly different than how others have done it - it felt deliberate.

Thesp, what is your opinion on Tinsley? How about on Charter?

I think Tinsley is scum. I think charter is pro-town and not thinking very well.

I bow to the superiority of the member since 2004, the supersaint, the paragon of mafiahunters!

No, actually, I don't. At the very least, there is a "can" in there which makes it at least technically true. I find the reactions you get out of people on supposedly non-critical discussions are informative.

Please don't patronize me. I don't think me being here since 2004 makes me any more right. (I think there are other things that make me more right. ) I recognize I may be wrong about the latter. Also, as a counter-factual:

Skullcrusher Mountain
by Jonathan Coulton
Welcome to my secret lair on Skullcrusher Mountain
I hope that you’ve enjoyed your stay so far
I see you’ve met my assistant Scarface
His appearance is quite disturbing
But I assure you he’s harmless enough
He’s a sweetheart, calls me master
And he has a way of finding pretty things and bringing them to me

I’m so into you
But I’m way too smart for you
Even my henchmen think I’m crazy
I’m not surprised that you agree
If you could find some way to be
A little bit less afraid of me
You’d see the voices that control me from inside my head
Say I shouldn’t kill you yet

I made this half-pony half-monkey monster to please you
But I get the feeling that you don’t like it
What’s with all the screaming?
You like monkeys, you like ponies
Maybe you don’t like monsters so much
Maybe I used too many monkeys
Isn’t it enough to know that I ruined a pony making a gift for you?

I’m so into you
But I’m way too smart for you
Even my henchmen think I’m crazy
I’m not surprised that you agree
If you could find some way to be
A little bit less afraid of me
You’d see the voices that control me from inside my head
Say I shouldn’t kill you yet

Picture the two of us alone inside my golden submarine
While up above the waves my doomsday squad ignites the atmosphere
And all the fools who live their foolish lives may find it quite explosive
But it won’t mean half as much to me if I don’t have you here

You know it isn’t easy living here on Skullcrusher Mountain
Maybe you could cut me just a little slack
Would it kill you to be civil?
I’ve been patient, I’ve been gracious
And this mountain is covered with wolves
Hear them howling, my hungry children
Maybe you should stay and have another drink and think about me and you

I’m so into you
But I’m way too smart for you
Even my henchmen think I’m crazy
I’m not surprised that you agree
If you could find some way to be
A little bit less afraid of me
You’d see the voices that control me from inside my head
Say I shouldn’t kill you yet
I shouldn’t kill you yet
I shouldn’t kill you yet

It's difficult to get to the useful stuff when it's buried in crap that doesn't pertain to the town's interests. (Even if Jonathan Coulton is hysterical.) Scum do this to weigh down re-reads and make it hard to wade through to find the useful stuff. Town unwittingly do it thinking ti gets them somewhere.

There is a point of diminishing returns to posting.

At some point, the useful information begins to be drowned out amongst the garbage. Forgive me if I'm terse at times, I'm tryign to avoid hitting this point of diminishing returns.

And Walnut, I didn't think the rest of your post was worth commenting further on. I still don't.

[Thesp]

My apologies - I know I can get snarky at times, please forgive me when I do so. Carry on.

[Thesp]

I am sorry that I was wrong about Netlava's alignment. I think I'm right about some other ones, though.

Also re: farkshinsoup, the way that farside22 did this felt markedly different than how others have done it - it felt deliberate.

Thesp, what is your opinion on Tinsley? How about on Charter?

I think Tinsley is scum. I think charter is pro-town and not thinking very well.

So you're confident that Fark and I are scum? Why did you investigate Batt instead of one of us?

Because I have a read on you (I think). I did not have one on Battousai. (My cop philosophy is to investigate those whom little is known about.)

[Thesp]

Thesp, could you elaborate at all about how you came to the conclusion that you are paranoid and not simply of unknown sanity?

My flavor suggests that I am unsure of whom to trust as a direct result of recent events.

This would be an excellent choice. If you are scum and make the kill, the tracker follows you to a dead body. (This very much could've happened) If you are scum and did not make the kill, the tracker sees you do not take a target, and can refute your cop result if you give one. If you are cop and select someone, the tracker sees who you picked and verifies that it matches your result today to strengthen your unknown/paranoid result. Tell me one reason why a tracker should not pick you.

I think you're missing the point - there's no way I'm gonig to make it to the endgame. I'm goign to be killed by the mafia eventually (presuming I'm town) or found out eventually (if I'm mafia). Why not get info on other players (when there's plenty on, and to come from, me)?

CF Riot, do you think I should be lynched today?

There are many posts on the past couple pages that are not in any way helping to lynch Walnut. This is very disappointing.

I like you.

I'd really like to run up Farkshinsoup or Tinsley today. I do not mind the Walnut hate.

Nonvoters, get moving. I'd also like to hear if anyone seriously wants to lynch me today. If not, I acknowledge that my result from last night is suspect (though at least partly confirmed by the mod), and I'd like you to talk about things that will actually move somewhere.

PPE flash of thought: I might not be paranoid after all. The mod said re: cop results on dead people, "Plus, the results are on the next day's opening day flavor text", which may imply that the reason I wouldn't receive a result is because it would be redundant. I may be reading too much into that. Carry on with lynching.

[Thesp]

A tracker isn't like a cop by the info they gain. Picking someone out of the town will give 3/10 chance of hitting scum (as of last night). But for a tracker, whether or not they get a result isn't a sign of whether or not they hit scum, as a positive result could also be a town role like cop or doc. So by this logic, the chance that their night action would lead to discerning a person's role must be less than 3/10. However given the circumstances of last night, if a tracker had selected you, no matter what result they got back it would be very strong evidence towards verified cop or busted scum. Of course in Mafia nothing can be considered 100%, but a track on you would've been almost guaranteed to verify your alignment. Even if you are the cop, verifying your role is almost as beneficial to the town as eliminating a scum.

I think you're missing my point: I'm going to die by the endgame, so my alignment is not as important as someone else's alignment (especially since a tracker is the most potent weapon against potential SKs).

I don't understand the rush. Even if Walnut is scum, we still have his scumbuddies to find, and we can gain some insight into them before we make a lynch.

I don't understand the need to

wait

. We're getting plenty of info already, and at some point, we need to just do it and lynch some poor sucker. If we keep waiting and waiting for "more info", eventually we get deadlined and do a rush job of things. Let's suppose we force it now, and Walnut makes a mason claim, or something equally clearable. Where do we go from there? If we've spent the whole day piddling around, not only is there a whole mess of posts to wade through, but time may be against us (and undoubtedly scum will exploit that). There's already plenty to draw insight from.

Stop stalling us and vote for someone.

Investigating the scummiest players is not good cop play most of the time. Clearing innocents is in many cases just as helpful as finding scum (Read some of Yos2's thoughts on this in mafia discussion, if you want - he actually feels the main purpose of cops is to clear townies, not find scum).

Yosarian2 agrees with me on this. It's also particularly notable that often vigs will hit the "scummiest person", making such investigations worthless. (I can go over the math and some scenarios if it will help, but I feel this is detracting from the business at hand.)

I just reviewed Walnut's posts, and I'm not wild about his proposed lynch. It's a tolerable one, but I think there are betters out there. The walls of text in re-reading are eye-bleeding, by the way. I'm not really wild about a charter lynch, I just think he's wrong on things more than he's scum.

[Thesp]

Stop stalling us and vote for someone.

Right, even though I'm still unsure between Walnut and charter, I should vote just because one of the players I find scummiest told me to.

You should get around to making your mind up somewhat fast, take a guess, and quit stalling.

I just reviewed Walnut's posts, and I'm not wild about his proposed lynch.

What made you change your mind on Walnut? I'm still waiting to hear:

1) Your case on me.
2) Whether the fact you forgot to unvote CF Riot before voting Netlava was intentional.
3) Your answer to charter's question on how you're so sure that SG is town.

1) I love how eager you are to defend yourself. You need to die posthaste.
2) Nope, accidental. (Why in the world is this important?)
3) She feels so very pro-town in her posts. I'm not going to explain everything I feel because I'm curious to see how others process these thoughts as well.

What do you think of farkshinsoup? (Forgive me if I've asked before, I do not recall your answer.)

[Thesp]

I acknowledge that the case I laid out against you was on the thin side. I'm not going to win any scummies for my scum hunting. If there was a case on anyone (including Walnut) that I thought was really airtight, I'd be on that wagon right now.

That having been said, the speed with which the wagon on you grew after my vote has me somewhat alarmed. I'm keeping my eye on it.

Good job keeping suspicion thrown out on everyone. (Since bashing the charter wagon has become en vogue, it seems natural you'd want a piece of that action as well.)

[Thesp]

Just a quick check-in post - it may be Friday before I can get some real posting in.

Fark did make a case on charter and was only the second on his bandwagon. I don't think Fark's case was as bad as some make it out to be.

Tinsley is the lynch today, not Walnut and not Charter.

Vote: Tinsley

I think Fark decided he didn't quite have enough votes to lynch charter, so he decided to start a Tinsley bandwagon to appeal to Thesp. If he could get Thesp to vote with him, then he just needed two more non-scumbuddy votes.

Vote: Farkshinsoup

I approve of these recent developments. I will vote for either one.

[Thesp]

Wow, thanks for the helpful post, Thesp. I know that you're counting on being dead soon, but it would be nice if you could devote a little more energy and analysis to this game.

I will, I really promise I will, but it's unlikely to happen before Friday. (See sig - July is the busiest closing month in the real estate industry, and everyone wants to close at the end of the month.)

[Thesp]

My apologies for my absence lately - I'll post something significant tonight, please hold me to that.

[Thesp]

I'm just pointing out that since you've joined the game, you've been pointing fingers at myself and Fark without trying to build a case. If you're going to accuse Fark/farside for that reason, it's only right that we look at you for the same reason.

That's not why I'm suspicious of farside22/farkshinsoup.

What do you think of Lord Gurgi? You never responded to to my question about Walnut.

I don't think much of Lord Gurgi. I don't mind the pressure on him, but I'm not convinced he's scum. I wouldn't mind him dying. What was your question about Walnut?

Tinsley's turnaround on Farkshinsoup looks a little too fake to me.

After rereading everything Charter has done and without the biased thinking that Netlava was scum, I'm starting to think Charter is making a lot of mistakes and jumping the gun a lot, but he's doing so as town. He does some very

scummy

unhelpful/anti-town

things, but none of them seem to be working towards any sinister goal of mislynching someone or defending himself unjustly. And I noticed as I went through looking for scum tells, a lot of his cases are presented very poorly, but do make sense if you interpret them a bit.

I think this is absolutely correct (if you make the change I did in italics).

I think Fark decided he didn't quite have enough votes to lynch charter, so he decided to start a Tinsley bandwagon to appeal to Thesp. If he could get Thesp to vote with him, then he just needed two more non-scumbuddy votes.

Vote: Farkshinsoup

HA HA HA HA HA
diescumdie

I don't see Tinsley's fark vote as being any bad kind of OMGUS, and still have a mostly town read on him.

How?

I don't buy the whole "quit stalling, take a guess and vote for someone" approach.

How can you play mafia otherwise? Seriously?

That's the core of playing mafia - giving it your best guess and seeing what turns out. The more you do that, the more you get a feel for how people interact, and the better you get at doing it right. (Disclaimer: You will also sometimes get things horribly, horribly wrong. I still believe if you give it your best guess and run with it, you'll be right more than you'll be wrong.)

Ehh, I'm leaning towards Fark being horribly wrong in his assessment of things, but wrong as town now.

I'm moving up!

I liked this post.

Compare me to Thesp- he comes out and says something along the lines of "A, B and C are the scum- thanks for coming everyone" and everyone nods approvingly, while I am a pariah because I don't.

For what it's worth, that's how I begin every game I replace into. I'm right probably about 40%+ of the time when I'm town on my accusations. This number may be made up and may not comprise reality.

I am going to Unvote. I am going to keep watching and make a new assessment. Anybody have any objections?

Yes. Vote.

*reads LG/farkshinsoup row*

Tinsley, what do you think of Lord Gurgi?

*reads more*

I think at least two of LG/Fark/Walnut are scum.

Replace "Walnut" with "Tinsley", and I agree. I think I know which two as well.

I'd like to see a vote from camn.

Farkshinsoup, what's your current assessment of Tinsley?

[Thesp]

In all seriousness, maybe that is the advantage of your many years of playing- that you have built up the experience base to be confident in your picks, or perhaps had so many games that individual ones don't seem so significant.

Or maybe I've gotten to the point that I realize more info isn't going to help me anyways, so I'm just going to take a stab at it.

In all seriousness, I think extra time does more to help scum recover from early missteps than it does provide useful information. Your mileage may vary.

[Thesp]

I haven't forgotten about you all, I promise! I'm running out of town for the evening, but if I don't have something substantial up by tomorrow noonish, someone please slap me with a wet fish.

[Thesp]

Urgh. Camn just voted someone who wasn't even on the LoS she posted 1 page ago. I don't know how to digest this at all.

How likely do you think it is that Camn has lied about her role?

That’s the only reason you’ve given for suspecting Fark, so if there’s another reason, what is it?

Perhaps you should answer these questions for yourself, and get back to me:

How much probative scumhunting did farside22 do? How many posts did she have that looked like they were useful, but went nowhere? How often did she go on tangents away from the centerpoint of discussion?

She claimed to be busy, but when she

was

able to contribute, look what she spent her time on.

While we're on the subject, what scumhunting have you done?

Isn't that a question for you to answer?

You said you weren’t wild about Walnut’s proposed lynch while earlier in the game you said you didn’t mind the Walnut hate. What made you change your mind?

Good question. I still don't mind the Walnut hate, but I don't think he's likelier to be scum than a couple of other people. I'm intrigued to get people's reactions to him (especially since he was one of the ones who tried to attack a cop claim, which is always more likely to come from scum), and want to see him squirm because I think it's mildly useful, but ultimately I think there are better targets out there. I think that, barring strange developments, he probably shouldn't be allowed near the endgame.

By the way my crappy argument/prediction is looking like it’s coming true. You’ve got your loyal followers (camn and Walnut) on my bandwagon now. With charter doing a reread, ShadowGirl set to return any day now, and Thesp more than willing to drop the hammer, it looks like you might get someone other than Walnut lynched. Nice work scum!

This looks like flailing about. I also never, ever like the "nice work, scum!" type of quote.

FoS Lord Gurgi.

Did you just ask for a deadline?! That's pretty damn convenient, since that bandwagon against you just recently evaporated.

I think this FOS is misplaced, as the deadline request is more likely to come from town-LG than scum-LG.

I too am against a deadline at this point. We have plenty to talk about.

I think we've done plenty of talking. It's time to lynch someone.

Let's get to killing. I'll vote for either of Tinsley or farkshinsoup (my vote is currently on farkshinsoup, even though I've enjoyed his presence in this game). I'll add pressure to walnut if necessary, I will not vote for Lord Gurgi.

Let's get to killin'.

I'm amused at how differently Macavenger and I think about everyone.

I have read the whole Mac post against me

You're a better man than me. I may get around to it sometime, I skimmed it.

My

KILL

posts

KILL

will

KILL

probably

KILL

contain

KILL

subliminal

KILL

messages

KILL

from

KILL

here

KILL

on

KILL

out,

KILL

to

KILL

guide

KILL

us

KILL

in

KILL

the

KILL

direction

KILL

we

KILL

need

KILL

to

KILL

go.

[Thesp]

Thesp: I believe Camn. I don't think it's impossible that she lied, I just believe her. I think it's much more likely that you are lying about your role than Camn is hers. Numbers: 75% truth 25% lie. What do you think?

I think it's extremely likely that she's telling the truth, so much so that it's not worth contemplating at this stage. (I also agree that from a neutral perspective, it's more likely that she's telling the truth than I am.)

While I'm at it, why do you insist all Tinsley's questions are just for him to answer? I think you are dodging accusations almost as badly as Walnut.

What do you mean? This question:

That’s the only reason you’ve given for suspecting Fark, so if there’s another reason, what is it?

...is better answered by looking at her yourself. The other question...

While we're on the subject, what scumhunting have you done?

...is a question for him to answer, not me. (Seriously, what am I going to say? I think I've done lots of scumhunting, and I continue to do so.)

[Thesp]

The first question has been taken out of context. You said something like, "X isn't the reason I suspect Fark," and in that question Tinsley asked what the other reason was. You are in fact the only person who can answer why YOU suspect someone. The second one is almost a rhetorical question, but you must see that it is an accusation against you. You say nothing to refute it. You seem perfectly comfortable letting us believe you aren't scum hunting. I personally see some effort on your part now, but at the time you really hadn't done anything and you just let that statement ride. I don't see any of your own justification for your suspects either. Just, "What you have all said is right, so I'll keep supporting you."

I don't think defenses are very useful (if at all). If I'm scum, I could just make stuff up that sounds reasonable, so I don't think what I say to justify my actions is all that important.

[Thesp]

Thesp: I could almost say the exact same thing to you, minus some context from my comment to Walnut.

I'm not sure I understand what you're referring to here.

LET'S GET LYNCHING, PEOPLE. If it will help for me to move my vote to Tinsley, I will do so.

[Thesp]

Thesp, the last thing you said to me is you don't see a point to defenses. So if you take my first line or two from what I said to Walnut, that's pretty much the exact same way I feel about you.

Walnut

Thesp

: I think there are

several valid

some decent

points against you and if you were town, you'd at least try to point out why they're wrong or what your justification for taking X scummy action is. You're answers are used for us to decide if you are scummier or townier.

I guess I don't see the usefulness in doing such now, nor am I aware of what I need to account for that hasn't been gone over. I think there are more productive uses of my text.

LET'S GET LYNCHING, PEOPLE. If it will help for me to move my vote to Tinsley, I will do so.

This is getting a little tiresome. You keep cajoling us to lynch someone already, but you have only 2 people who you're willing to vote for, and I happen to have inside knowledge that one of them is a townie. And I think it's pretty clear that even if you switched your vote to Tinsley, that would not help, so how about widening your scope a little and ACTUALLY being helpful?

I really am looking at other people as well, none of them are worth pursuing at the moment, I think. I actively dislike a Lord Gurgi lynch, and don't feel any great reason to push the Walnut wagon. If everyone would get their act together, get behind someone and work for it, perhaps we'd get somewhere in this game instead of spinning in circles, which seems to be what we're doing now (which is more than a little tiresome).

[Thesp]

If everyone would get their act together, get behind someone and work for it, perhaps we'd get somewhere in this game instead of spinning in circles, which seems to be what we're doing now (which is more than a little tiresome).

So what you mean is, if everyone would just get behind your 2 top suspects, we'd be good to go. The issue isn't that we don't want to lynch somebody, it's that we all have different people that we want to lynch. Do you have any concrete suggestions for how to solve this problem?

While I think that'd be ideal (;)), I understand it may not be the most workable. I appreciate your efforts to drum up a Walnut lynch, and I think doing things like that helps. What I want to do is move us out of the interrogation mindset, and towards the action mindset (as you seem to be doing).

I am mildly worried that we're all sitting waiting for ShadowGirl's response, which would undoubtedly be useful, but each post (including this one) makes it less likely she'll be able to do an effective re-read and post, and I'm growing tired of the waiting game (as I'm sure you all are as well).

I'll vote for farkshinsoup/Tinsley, then Walnut if I must. I will not vote for Lord Gurgi.

[Thesp]

^This post is good.

This post was also good.

[Thesp]

Unvote: farkshinsoup, Vote: Tinsley.

[Thesp]

I was hoping that during Day 2, Thesp would drop his focus on me and look elsewhere but that never happened. I tried to give him a breadcrumb that only he would understand here:

Honestly, considering how many people find me scummy, I'm starting to think that the only reason I'm still alive is for entertainment value. From now on, Thesp, I want you to call me Farkle, or failing that, THADmiral!

This is a reference to a game that Thesp was in about a year ago called Farkle Mafia, where a player named THADmiral was the doctor. Here's the link: viewtopic.php?t=5037.

I wish I was smooth enough to have picked up on this. I thought it was an odd phrasing, but I didn't think anything beyond that. Sorry. (If you're town, that is, then I'm sorry. If you're scum, of course, then die in the fire of a thousand explosions.)

[Thesp]

*slaps Lord Gurgi and ShadowGirl with a wet fish*

Move somewhere now! Take your best guess.

[Thesp]

Thesp, who are your top three picks for scum now?

I'll try to get a skimming re-read of some things and answer this tonight.

How about you? (Apologies if you've answered this already, I don't recall the answer.)

(Reading ahead is tech.)

In other news, I can't believe I'm doing this again, but since I can't seem to sway Thesp on LG, I'm going to unvote vote: Tinsley. Just a better chance of getting him lynched, and I really want to lynch scum today. Tinsley, are you a mafia roleblocker? Cause that would be awesome.

I've not been thrilled with Lord Gurgi, and I don't like

how

he shifted his vote to Macavenger. Part of my basis for his defense was his open push for a deadline, now I'm a bit more skeptical of trusting my tell on that one. The rest of your post to Tinsley is awesome.

I find the narrowing down that Mac has done suspicious. If he is scum, then people agreeing to this could easily seal the game for the mafia, as it would be lynch one off the list, NK someone else, lynch one off the list etc. Yep, I know that we have to lynch someone today, but I don't like the assumption that this makes that the other players are inviolate.

Rich. You realize that, until about the last page, no one has talked seriously about lynching anyone not on that list in about 10 pages, except possibly you about lynching charter? I'm not narrowing anything down - the town is. I'm just supplying data.

I agree with Macavenger here.

I think I'm also trending towards a more aggressive style over time, but can't really comment on that without talking about some ongoings.

I personally recommend this. It's far more entertaining.

I don't like Riot's last post, particularly his Thesp=cop and Fark=doc scenario. There is no roleblocker if Thesp is town. There's no way scum would have chanced him investigating one of them if they could have avoided it.

It's unlikely the scum would have tried to kill me last night straightaway, as any doctor in the game (if they existed) would likely have protected me. If they had a roleblocker, it's almost certain they would have used it on me. The likelihoods in CF Riot's post are entirely spot-on, except I think it less likely that farkshinsoup would be scum claiming a weak doc having protected me, because he'll be a target way too easily. (There's no way he survives to the endgame with such a claim.)

I'm also

against

a massclaim. I don't think the game is poorly designed, nor do I think we're in a situation where massclaiming is ideal, so I don't think it's a good idea.

I still don't see Thesp as necessarily clear, and not just because he may have been blocked. The assumption that the mafia would have blocked him is not such a sure thing when it has been explicitly stated that he is of uncertain sanity. That means that they can definitely allow him one inconclusive investigation.

This may easily be one of the silliest things I've read in the thread.

[Thesp]

I've been pondering whom I'm next most suspicious of, and the more it's insisted that I should declare who else I'm suspicious of, the more I think I should probably wait until after tonight before divulging more.

I think it's more worthwhile for me to be tightlipped at this point, lest I give the scum any indication as to whom I might investigate. (This is especially true if they have a framer or some such role.)

I'm ready for Tinsley to die.

[Thesp]

Why are you in such a rush here Fark?

He should just request a deadline

That's the reason I wanted to know. He jumped all over you for requesting a deadline, and now he's trying to quicklynch.

It's not pursuing farkshinsoup at this time. Seriously.

Also:

Are you saying you would vote Fark to keep him from endgame?

If he's still around and there are 5 people left, we should definitely be asking questions. Let's see if that happens.

[Thesp]

I'm going to MiniMoMeet tonight, I may or may not be able to post substantively while there. I will be able to make my nightchoice. I'll be back on Monday. Thanks!

[Thesp]

Deadline time. Tinsley needs to swing.

This.

Also, I don't much understand the Mac votes, though I understand the not-so-good-feeling-in-the-gut about him.

[Thesp]

Never. Ever. No lynch. Ever.

Strictly speaking, this is wrong. There are a number of easily identifiable situations where no-lynching is the ideal play, as there are some more uncertain situations where it is best. (This is by no means a situation where we should no-lynch, though.)

[Thesp]

thats twice someone has used "Too Townie" to defend Mac.

That is not what we are saying.

It's not that Mac is Too PRO-TOWN... its that he is too PERFECT.

Only Scum know who all the townies are.

Real Townies make mistakes. They OMGUS. They WIFOM. They Lynch innocents.
Mac's "perfect play" was more like . . the opposite of that..

Based on this presumption, who would you guess his scum partners are?

[Thesp]

What would I have to gain by bluffing? As it stands right now I'll be lynched unless something changes in the next couple days. I can save everyone some time.

Don't self hammer.

[Thesp]

I'm super, super happy with a Tinsley lynch. (How likely is it that scum would claim weak doc? Really????????? Yeesh. I think this is a distraction.)

[Thesp]

Why would a weak doc suspect a claimed cop he knew for a fact wasn't scum?

Hurr, I need to pay more attention. This is actually an interesting question.

[Thesp]

Voting farkshinsoup right now is silly. If he's scum, he's gonna die soon anyway.

[Thesp]

How is it silly?

Because if he's scum, he's already essentially dead. There's no way he makes it into the endgame. Also, the risk of lynching a doc here is outweighed by the chance of hitting scum. (If this were the endgame, it'd be a different story, but that's not the case at all.)

Why do the mafia's work for him? If he's actually a doctor, why make it easy for the scum to kill me tonight, and give the scum a choice of having to kill him or have him around for suspicion? If he's scum, do you think it will be useful to see how he explains how he's still alive two days from now?

[Thesp]

It's been said but I'll add my opinion of no self-hammer out there. We've waited this long, might as well take this one all the way to deadline too.

No no no no no. A deadline is a sorry excuse for a lynch.

[Thesp]

SG, would you please post your updated thoughts on all players and why they're at where they are.

Does anyone else read this as, "I need to know whether or not to kill you tonight"?

[Thesp]

I got an innocent. I don't think it's best to reveal who it is - haven't read the thread yet except the morning death scene. More later.

[Thesp]

3 - Not sure why I'm still alive, I think that scum is hoping that there's enough suspicion on me to get me lynched.

4 - I protected Thesp again last night. Eager to hear if his investigation bore any fruit.

I wasn't roleblocked last night (as far as I can tell), so there are a couple of possibilities:

1) The mafia have some sort of investigation impeder, whether someone that flips revealed alignments or otherwise gives misinformation to a cop.

2) There is a serial killer and/or vig, and people have tried to kill me twice in a row.

3) Farkshinsoup is mafia, and the mafia cannot kill me as long as I'm alive because it blows his cover.

4) The mafia have a roleblocker, blocked farkshinsoup, and killed someone other than me.

5) The mafia made a suboptimal play, hoping that we'd go after farkshinsoup.

As I see it, (1) is unlikely, as we've already seen a Godfather. (2) is conceivable, but unlikely and not worth a lot of speculation at this point. (4) is somewhat silly - conceivable if they think I'm worthless (with all my paranoia talk), but still unlikely. (3) & (5) are the most likely scenarios, with (3) being perhaps the most awesome, but (5) being most likely. (There are a couple more, even more remote, possibilities, but none I thought were worth mentioning.)

If farkshinsoup is scum, he can't afford to kill me, especially as it's clear the mafia likely don't have a roleblocker. (If they did, the most likely/obvious choices are RB fark & kill me, or RB me.) As long as farkshinsoup is alive, then

if

there's only one killing group, and

if

the mafia does not have a roleblocking ability (which I think is likely the case), we're looking pretty good at this point.

I'm probably going to be more reticent about my suspicions at this point - what I say about people will give away some possibilities of whom I investigated, and it's ideal if the people I investigated aren't the people that get killed. (No sense painting a target on them for the mafia.) I do have some strong feelings about some players, and if you will permit me, I'll be more inclined to join and add to bandwagons that form that I like to add pressure, rather than instigate them at this time. (Not what I'd like to do, but tactically I think it's best.)

[Thesp]

While I agree that if the person Thesp investigated is about to be lynched, then he should stop us. But I think Thesp's reason for keeping his investigation quiet is so that person lives through the night. If that's the case, then I agree with his reasoning.

This.

Also,

Vote: Lord Gurgi.

[Thesp]

Methinks that was the hammer. No?

I think so.

Also, I did not investigate Lord Gurgi last night. (obv)

[Thesp]

In retrospect re: Lord Gurgi, I should have asked for a claim before the quicklynch yesterday, but I'd have done the same thing on the townie claim.

I think the best play here is to no-lynch - it gives us another investigation (or forces farkshinsoup to kill me if he's scum). Y'alls thoughts?

[Thesp]

Today is lylo, BTW.

It's not if we no-lynch.

Are you going to tell us who you investigated the past 2 nights?

I thought I'd posted it in my first post - I investigated Tinsley last night. I wanted to find out more about his no-vote while the Mafia GF was piled on. I have not revealed the innocent I found the night before, and I still don't think it's best to do so just yet.

Thesp, please explain to me why no-lynch is better than a lynch today.

(This all presumes there are 2 mafia remaining, which seems to me to be a reasonable assumption.) We have 6 people alive. If we lynch incorrectly, at night scum kill someone, and we're at 2-2, and we lose. If we no-lynch, it gives me an extra investigation, and tomorrow we're at 2-3. (Heck, maybe we'll get lucky and I won't investigate the same person who gets nightkilled

again

.)

This is even better, given camn's role (if we presume her town) - if

you're

scum, you can't afford to kill me, because we'd simply kill you tomorrow, and your team gets a draw

at best

, because you lose when you try to kill camn. I'm having a hard time seeing a downside to no-lynch at this point.

So, I'd like everyone's opinion on the following statements:

(1) We should no-lynch today.
(2) If anyone else has role-based information

to suspect someone as scum

, they should come out with it.

[Thesp]

That's strangely comforting.

I investigated CF Riot. He's guilty. Two nights ago I investigated ShadowGirl and she's innocent. I believe camn, so that leaves CF Riot and charter.

Vote: CF Riot.

I'll remove my vote if you guys think it's important for me to wait on it, but I can't imagine that being the case.

(Also, wow, was I wrong on my guesses when I entered the game!)

[Thesp]

Unvote.

I want to comment on charter before the night, but I don't have the time right now.

[Thesp]

What...the...frick.

Why camn?

[Thesp]

If it was ShadowGirl and CF Riot together, we didn't have a chance.

[Thesp]

I think the game was looking sort of bad for you guys at the point where the Doc, the PGE, and the Cop had all claimed by D2. Although we did do a great job of keeping all the power roles alive for way longer than we should have. =\

So it's you and charter?

[Thesp]

What? I thought you had a different investigation result on Riot and SG?

I did.

[Thesp]

So you're a random cop then?

You could just be stringing us along. If I am a random cop, though, I am going to be very, very unhappy with our mod.

[Thesp]

Did either of you have abilities? Why did my results end up different?

[Thesp]

I think that's what probably boggled me the most - that Riot got away with a guilty. Though, I understand how the logic worked out on that.

charter's logic on it was perfect. There was no way we were going to win once I had differing investigations on mafia (with a Godfather revealed).

Well done to the scum for staying hidden early, especially to ShadowGirl, who had me fooled before the investigation.

I often have a feeling of agony/regret/something, where I think, "Curses! Fie! Dangit!" after a game where I lost because I was wrong. I don't have that this game. I feel like I did right (re: investigations, not from earlier scumhunting, where I was clearly wrong), and we lost anyway. I don't feel the delicious agony of losing, and I don't think that's a good thing.

I feel a little cheated by the Usurper role, as there's no way I could have discovered anything so unusual about my investigations after the GF died. I suppose I

could

have guessed it, or contemplated such a thing happening, but the odds against it are so astronomical that

it would be poor play to suspect my results were tampered with at that point

. (Essentially, once I had investigated ShadowGirl then CF Riot, after the GF had turned up, the endgame as it occurred was a foregone conclusion.) I think having two godfather-like roles is awkward and misleading in a game. (For the record, I'm also not a fan of roles which win with a side and have an extra condition to fulfill in order to achieve victory, making them strictly worse than others in their role.)

I'm displeased with the setup of the game, but in all other respects, I think Mizzy was a fantastic mod - thanks for modding this game!

I am curious, mafia - why the delay in killing the doctor? (And fie on you for killing all my nightchoices!)