Mini 649-Everything comes down to money(Game Over)

[Airhead]

Hello everyone I would like to

vote: sirdanilot

because he unvoted Artem and FOS'd him without voting anyone else and I don't understand why a townie would do that since he stopped using his vote.

[Airhead]

Artem I would like to ask you why you say I am a "lurker" when the mod told you that I said I would be away and unable to access the game for a few days.

Also why do you say I am trying to look useful rather than trying to be useful because I think I might really be on to something with sirdanilot.

Lastly I was quite obviously referring to sirdanilot's post #26 in which he was not using his vote at that time and I see very little reason for any townie to unvote and not be using their vote at this stage in the game so I am unsure in what sense you think I am "wrong" that he decided to stop using his vote at that time.

Do you think that it was a good idea for him to unvote and not be using his vote at that time Artem -- do you think it would be a good idea for all the players in the game to unvote and just fos who they were voting when no one is anywhere near lynch. Do you think that doing that would be town behavior. Why.

[Airhead]

Sirdanalot why do you feel it necessary to say that something I called scummy of your actions is "really easy for scum to take advantage of". Why not just explain it was not scummy and leave it at that. Why do you mention scum taking advantage of things. If it is easy for scum to take advantage of such things don't you think you might have just tipped the scum off as to how get away with things easily.

lifeofpie, with 5 people needing to be voting someone to lynch, I don't think that we will accidentally lynch someone any time soon. Votes generate information, it is the only mod-recognized game mechanic that townies have at their disposal, and I think using it as much as possible is a good idea as long as your primary suspect is not near being lynched or the scum could instantly win. Particularly early in the game, it seems like votes are really useful to use.

Artem, why does my entrance warrant suspicion. Is it because I found sirdanalot's declining to use his vote suspicious.

Do you think it is OK for some players to not vote when there are nine players alive and the player with the most votes has 2. Do you think it is OK and beneficial to the town for players to not have a standing declaration of who their number one suspect is. Why do you think this.

[Airhead]

Artem, you have failed to demonstrate in any reasonable way that my entrance is poor, and your post #52 is evidence of this. You say it is a poor reason in part because it happened "in the early stages of the game". You then say that my reason is bad because "it is freaking page two". You seem to be suspicious of me because I tried to analyze what I had in front of me even though the game was young. If I should not take things seriously until page five, please let me know, then I'll return then and we can actually start playing, instead of having criticisms of arguments being "it is still too early in the game for arguments to be valid".

You say my attack was bad because it was for something minor and on page two -- what else am I supposed to comment on on page two. I commented on what I saw as the strongest thing so far. It seems to me if I had posted "Hi. vote: sirdanalot" I would have attracted much less suspicion from you -- discouraging analysis in that manner is highly detrimental to town success.

You also say my reason would have been better if sirdanalot had been still not voting. That is completely wrong and irrelevant to me. My issue is that he unvoted in the first place without voting someone else. There is literally no reason or need to be not voting someone at this stage, and I find his actively deciding not to do so and instead using a FoS suspicious.

Light-kun, you do not understand where I am coming from at all when you say that my reason is "pathetic" because it is not "a few days until deadline". Precisely because this is the early game, we can afford to throw votes around and by doing so leave an easy to read record of our suspicions.

Despite many people saying that my thoughts were bad, no one has given ONE good reason why a townie should not have his vote on someone at this time in the game. Give me ONE good reason why it is

more or equally beneficial

to the town for a townie to not be voting anyone than to be voting someone. I believe you cannot. Is sirdanalot definitely scum? No. But his unvoting was less beneficial to the town than continuing to vote someone, and doing actions that are less beneficial to the town is anti-town, ergo suspicious.

Coron, do you have anything of substance to contribute.

[Airhead]

Light-kun, why do you think it is better that you are not voting rather than voting. Why should that be acceptable.

Coron, I do mind doing that in the future. Sometimes saying the same thing in a different way or different perspective is the best way to convince others, it lets them see things from their viewpoint. Summaries aren't going to convince anyone of anything.

I think your post could be summarized as "Airhead summarize more please". Why not post that if summaries are so beneficial. Really, is it true that at this point in the game, suggesting that I summarize more is the only content you have for us.

[Airhead]

Netlava, why do you think what you say you think. Defending one's self is never suspicious. Ever. It is a logical fallacy to say it is.

Coron, should I just stop taking the game seriously then. It seems I am under attack because I decided to take the game seriously.

Artem, well then, what was the strongest thing at the time. Why. Also, what basis do you have for saying I would have come under more suspicion if I had placed a random vote.

I said that not voting was a scum tell, not a sure-fire indication of scum. In addition, now everyone is biased against having votes on. I've basically told a group of mostly (teenage/20s) males on the internet that they can't do something because it is bad. The natural reaction, obviously, is to ignore me and do it anyway. See posts 58, 65, etc. I encourage everyone to vote, even if it is voting me, because voting as opposed to not voting is the pro-town thing to do. The only reason you should not vote or unvote is if someone is going to be at lynch-1 or is already at lynch-1 or you are in lynch or lose, and you are not as sure as you'd like that you want them lynched.

In addition, I asked sirdanalot about his "defense" in post 50 and he still hasn't responded. I'd like to hear a response before I decide he is less suspicious. Others are now nearing sirdanalot in suspiciousness for me, but not reached him.

riboflavin, why do you say I have offered no explanation for my vote. Why do you tell sirdanalot not to take it the wrong way when you accuse him.

sirdanalot, firstly, I responded in post 50, right at the beginning, and you never addressed that. Secondly, I didn't even understand your "defense" as such -- you basically just described what happened and said your thoughts behind it. I already stated that if you thought riboflavin was suspicious you should have voted him. Your defense doesn't respond to the substance of my point. Why was it better to FOS him than vote him.

[Airhead]

I am not asking for pity, I was rather explaining to Artem why I am much less focused on the people who have subsequently unvoted since I said I found not voting suspicious. YC how is this at all irrelevant whatsoever. How am I whatsoever steering away from the subject of discussion when I am responding to something I specifically was asked about.

[Airhead]

I meant no offense or demeaning. I am in fact quite a fan of the sex/age group I referenced . That doesn't meant that I don't think that in this case the description of typical behavior was an inaccurate one.

I don't think your bringing up what the mod posted was scummy or significant.

I don't think riboflavin's speculation was necessarily right, but I think it was plausible for him to think that, and riboflavin wasn't scummy for bringing it up. It may have been right and Light-Kun is scum but I do not feel nearly as strongly about that as I do about sirdanilot's unvoting.

[Airhead]

Netlava, your point about scum overdefending random votes is fair enough. My vote truly was not random, but I see your point.

Artem's reaction seems more genuine... Y.C. bringing it up as suspicion against me after many others have, and is now backing down from it because he thought I might be inexperienced. Seems odd to me; why be suspicious of me at all if you are willing to ascribe your suspicion of me to being wrong and just me being inexperienced at the slightest of protests.

Netlava, I agree that my voting policy is a good idea. As I said in the 4th paragraph of post 69, so long as we aren't at lynch or lose and no one is at lynch-2, there is no reason not to vote the player you find most suspicious out of everyone.

[Airhead]

No I am not trying to bring attention

u

pon myself lifeofpie. What makes you ask me that.

[Airhead]

riboflavin, why do you say I have offered no explanation for my vote. Why do you tell sirdanalot not to take it the wrong way when you accuse him.

riboflavin could you please respond. thanks.

[Airhead]

YC, why are you troubled by my response to 78, and what basis do you have for saying my posts were nervious. I see none.

I responded to a direct question and reminded riboflavin to ask me a question. How is that nervous YC. Why do you think that is nervous.

sirdanalot we are talking past each other it seems. I don't understand how your defense is responding substantively at all. If you thought riboflaving was suspiciious then I don't see how it was pro-town to not vote him right then. If you still thought the player you unvoted was the most suspicious, I don't see why you would unvote them. You seem to be saying it doesn't matter since you voted in your next post or that my point is invalid and I don't see how either of those are true. Now you accuse me of focusing on only one player, when I have asked questions of many others. But I am focusing primarily on you -- I think that is a very effective way to judge someone's alignment -- to focus on them and make an assessment then move on if you think you are not likely scum. Your constant throwing back suspicion on my because I am suspicious of you is keeping you up there as highly scummy. It seems like a thickly veiled OMGUS.

riboflavin, for the third time, if you could answer my questions that would be very nice.

I agree that Coron should participate.

[Airhead]

YC, what justification do you have that impatience is a "tell-tale" scum tell. I'm very impatient and I am not scum. Even so, how is it a bad thing to try and get riboflavin to answer my question when he has posted since I asked and completely ignored it. I find his ignoring it suspicious and I want to know the answer so I can proceed with figuring out who I find most suspicious.

As for asking lifeofpie why he asked me a question -- obviously I wanted to know why he asked me the question. Did he have good reason for thinking I was trying to bring suspicion upon myself, or was he just trying to implicate me. That sort of thing tells us the motives of a player and would be helpful in scum hunting.

YC it seems you are calling me impatient for aggressively scum hunting.

I agree with Netlava that YC seems to be back-tracking from his initial claim that I looked super scummy because of that comment; now it is just "something he was pointing out".

riboflavin

you have still not responded to my post.

Coron you need to get active in this game, or you are going to end up being lynched.

sirdanalot you said you were going to respond to my post; I'd like to hear that response. sirdanalot seems to be trying to be useful; I disagree wagoning Coron right now is the best idea.

Artem & Netlava are giving me some mild town tells which is nice to have, but nothing super solid.

lifeofpie and LK I am unsure about.

Before anyone asks: I highly doubt there are 4 scum in this game. However, I am voting or fos'ing everyone who I have found most suspicious up to this point, and I think that it is likely some/many of the scum lie with in these 4.

unvote: sirdanilot vote: Y.C
fos: riboflavin
fos: coron
littlefos: sirdanilot

[Airhead]

YC, about your voting style. I would argue that this opposes transparency; if you voted it would be clear who your suspects were.

I accept your overall treatment of me, but how can you explain how in that post you said it was a major scum tell, and now you say it is something not that related to scumminess that you were just pointing out.

Sirdanalot, I strongly disagree with your broad generalizations of my post. I do not accuse everyone, I am not all over the place, and I see myself as having decent reasons for all my thoughts.

About YC and Coron, I think it is best to find one scum before trying to look for connections to them. I think if Coron is town, it really doesn't say much about YC. I think if YC is town, it doesn't really say much about Coron. Only if one of them shows up scum would it make the other look scummy. I want to find one scum first before thinking about things like this.

Well when I said you were trying to be useful, I meant that as a compliment to your townness. Trying to look useful is suspicious. Trying to be useful is townlike.

I don't think wagoning to Coron will have much effect on how much he posts or what response we get from him. I would like to hear your argument for why you think it is the case that voting him would have a causal effect on his posting habits. I don't think he is the most suspicious player, I think YC is with his contradiction. That's all the reason I need to vote YC over Coron, you make it seem like some huge deal that I chose to vote someone over Coron.

I don't admit to rambling or spamming. I do admit that I am casting a wide net, and that I think not all the fish (players) in the net are scum. I had a fixation on you because I never really got you to respond to my suspicion of you, and other things were developing with other players that I didn't want to respond to until I had some discussion from them. Also, if you'll recall, I was being strongly attacked, and had to put scum hunting other players on hold for a few days while I defended myself. I am "chaing my play" because there is more things to comment on now, and it would not be time effective to focus on just one player. Earlier in the game, your unvoting was basically the only thing I found suspicious, so I ran with it. I find it odd that as my playstyle is naturally evolving with the ebb and flow of the game, you call my "changing my playstyle" to adapt to the game around me suspicious. Do you really think it would make sense at this stage in the game for me to focus on only one player. I think it does make sense early, but we are getting lots of content now and the one by one approach I like early I don't think would work nearly as well now.

I have given a good reason that unvoting matters. It shows that you are not willing to demonstrate who you find most suspicious right now. It shows you are waffling, and not puting a strong foot forward.

Again it seems we are talking past each other. I found a small scum tell on you (which I have admitted by no stretch of any imagination makes you definitely scum) and you are badgering me over and over about how the small scum tell is not a scum tell at all whatsoever, when I believe it is. Your fanaticism with saying that the small scum tell is a not scum tell at all is a bit odd to me, as well.

The fact that I suspect you doesn't mean you can't suspect me in general, but the fact that being suspicious of someone who was suspicious of you isn't ALWAYS OMGUS doesn't mean that in this case you are not OMGUS.

I only "changed my playstyle" (so you say) recently, so your suspicion of me which started before that cannot be because of that...

Before I "changed my playstyle" it seemed you were saying you were suspicious of me because I was suspicious of you.

That seems like OMGUS to me.

[Airhead]

That's funny riboflavin, because I am so tempted to vote for you for just ignoring most of what is going on in the game and posting two sentence posts, when you need at least a paragraph or two to adequately respond to everything going on around you.

I don't think that it is at all true that I could have conveyed everything I wanted to in one or two paragraphs.

[Airhead]

Hi. I just read the past few pages...

I promised myself I wasn't going to post for a bit to see if people would stop complaining that I posted too much and then I forgot about this game completely. It looks like Coron was just making it up how I was hurting his participation, and really he was just scum who wanted an excuse.

I saw that riboflavin and Light-Kun both complained about my posts, and I think that one of them possibly could have been just trying to make excuses like Coron was, or trying to paint me in a bad light for little reason.

There being three deaths was really confusing at first but then considering what a weak doctor means, and that the pro-town mafia probably acted like a vigilante, it makes sense.

I find riboflavin suspicious. I am not sure enough to hammer him yet, but since it appears Light-Kun has unvoted I could not hammer anyways.

I'd like to hear from riboflavin explicitly about what his alignment is and who his partner(s) are. To me it seems very much like he made a mistake and claimed scum, and is not pro-town.

[Airhead]

Hey.

With three left I think we should mass claim. I am a vanilla townie.

riboflavin played really, really poorly. I am disappointed.

I think there are good reasons to think either Netlava or Light-Kun is scum. I'll make the best case I can for both and see what I think.

Light Kun:

While it is unlikely happen, Life of Pie, it is important for EVERYONE to remember that no one approaches every aspect of the game quite the same way. Some people, apparently, think that not having a vote on somebody makes you scum. I am curious as to how anyone can be held to this standard, when I don't feel obligated to put my vote on anyone unless I think they are scum. Also, I think that a FoS is just fine.

Hence:

Unvote

In any case, I think Coron is starting to Active lurk. *Glares*

Minor FoS Coron.

I really hope LifeofPie isn't mafia.... Seriously, Pie is both delicious and awesome.

So he thinks he is starting to active lurk, but that just warrants a minor fos? That seems inconsistent.

think coron is active lurking havent seen him post until he is proded or suspected as lurking

Posting because someone is suspecting me of lurking.

Posting because Coron is suspected of lurking.

Seriously, do you have no defense or is this your style of play for the game?

*...*

I am really curious as to why you are lacking any reaction aside from mild cynicism.

Nati-Note: Oh, dear god, just uncheck that little button that says "disable BBCode", please.

This post seems a lot to me like he is asking his partner to please defend himself.

He then tags along at the end about Coron being a Jester, and votes him only when he misclaims, after the hammer already happened.

Netlava:

Netlava has said less this game, but his analysis has made sense. He voted Coron to pressure Coron, and was adamant about his lynch.

There are two things that really, really bug me about Netlava though.

1) First:

Actually, I agree, I think Coron has a good chance of being a jester, because it looks like he is being scummy on purpose.

Then:

Unvote, vote: Coron

Why put Coron at lynch -1 if you think there is "a good chance" of him being a Jester?

2)

Looks like sirdanilot was killed by the mafia aligned mafia and lifeofpie killed by the town aligned.

Light-kun, were you aware that coron had already been hammered when you voted?

Now, examining things very closely, this analysis makes sense, but you said this with a bit of certainty and quickness that makes me think you might have known it beforehand.

I guess right now I am leaning slightly that Netlava is scum, because it seemed he tried to get on the Coron wagon to get credit for lynching him while also saying that he has a good chance of being a Jester. I'd like to hear his explanation for that.

I could see Light-Kun being scum, just I think the chances are slightly better that Netlava is scum.

I'd like to hear his explanation for that, though, and I'd like to hear your defenses and attacks on each other in general as well so I can make a good decision.

Also, if you believe I am the last scum, then you should say why you think that so I can respond to your thoughts.

[Airhead]

So, unless Netlava counterclaims, I am cleared.

I was working under the assumption that light was town mafia yesterday, and I am still leaning towards believing his claim.

??? I was a bit surprised by his claim and did not believe it immediately. I wondered whether there would be a two person town mafia or whether there would just be a godfather. There has not been an extra kill since SirD died.

I don't think that Light-Kun was really cleared until Netlava said that he was cleared; I think Netlava again is revealing he has information about the setup. Why were you "working

under the assumption

" that Light was town-mafia? What made you think this?

Netlava, Light's claim, and your "believing" it so readily, makes me much more inclined to think you are scum.

In addition your saying that you haven't found anything scummy by me but by process of elimination think I am scum strikes me as odd because I don't see how Light was really cleared; there could have been a one person town mafia. I've seen a one person scum mafia before, so I see no reason to believe it couldn't have been the case, or why you assumed it wasn't.

Netlava you also didn't respond to either of my reasons for being suspicion of you. You also haven't claimed.

Light, why did you and your partner think I was town? Light, you also haven't really responded to my suspicion of you.

Reading back over, we know the weak doc died because he protected a mafia member. Now depending on how this weak doc is worded, he might die if he protects ANY mafia -- so either of you. So maybe he protected a town mafia and died. BUT if he had to protect a scum mafia to die -- do either of you think that I was a likely protection target night 1? I think that that is implausible.

I am about ready to vote Netlava, I'll let Light and Netlava respond to my questions, but I am about 75% convinced at this point that Netlava is the final scum (25% chance of Light).

[Airhead]

I thought it was implied that I am vanilla.

Why?

The "extra info" really just comes from the night scenes. Airhead, would you say that all the information mentioned can be gained from the night scene?

If you know what a weak doctor is, and know that the scum mafia killed the town mafia, then it is a lot easier to figure it out.

Light has dropped quite a few hints at his role since day 1, which makes me lean on believing his claim.

Such as?

Also:

1) I forgot to consider the idea of a self-hammer, and I didn't like the wifom it was leading.

I don't buy this. In almost back to back posts you say he is a likely jester then put him at lynch -1. I think you are scum.

After reading through the game, Coron's constant complaining about airhead's posts looks like a direction for airhead to post less. I also don't like the sound of this:

Coron you need to get active in this game, or you are going to end up being lynched.

I definitely was "warning him". I found his lack of posting suspicious. I told him so, and told him if it didn't change he'd be lynched.

And Coron actually quite specifically asked me to post less. He kept degrading my posts and saying that my posts were stopping him from playing the game, and saying that I was a dumb person who posted too long.

I am as sure as I can get that Netlava is the scum. His explanation about the jester thing makes little sense, he definitely figured out the N1 night kills way too quickly, and his instant believing of Light-Kun is suspicious.

vote: Netlava

Light if you could posts so I can see if I am right that would be great.

If I am, if you have any questions of me please ask them. I am town.

[Airhead]

Hmm, airhead has already voted me, and no hammer, so that means airhead is scum.

Vote: airhead

Well actually if you were town you wouldn't have known that until Light posted. You'd have pleaded for me to unvote if I were town because Light-scum would come hammer.

But you know that Light is town and you know you aren't going to get him lynched, so you decided to vote me.

If you know what a weak doctor is, and know that the scum mafia killed the town mafia, then it is a lot easier to figure it out.

And why would the town not know this?

The town would have a lot more trouble figuring it out if they had no inside information. You already knew that the scum mafia killed the town mafia, so it was a lot easier for you to figure out what happened that night.

Okay Netlava, aside from your argument of "Light is not scum, and I am town, thus Airhead is scum," do you have any evidence indicating Airhead is scum?

Well I think I've made my thought process pretty clear in the past couple of posts.

The most glaring, obvious, thing is how Netlava says that Coron is probably a Jester, in hopes of not getting him lynched, and then a few posts later puts him at -1, changing strategy, hoping to at least be on his lynch and get townie credit for lynching Coron, when it becomes apparent that the wagon on him isn't going away (YC votes Coron putting him at lynch -2, then Netlava votes Coron just a few posts later).

See posts 105, 127. Netlava completely "forgets" how he said Coron was probably a jester and puts him at lynch -1. Why? He knows Coron is scum and if Coron is going to be lynched he wants to get credit for helping lynch Coron.

Then there is that bit about him knowing too much -- this is similar to the "congratulating the doctor" tell seen here: Finding Mafia. Scum and power roles have more information about what went on at night and are more likely to discuss it and accurately know what happened.

Then there comes the part where he cleared you way too easily. I thought from your two actions there was a slightly better chance that he was scum than you, but I did not believe at all that you were clear or that it was obvious you were the final town mafia member. I'd love for him to explain to you how it was so obvious you were the last town mafia and thus a claimable power role.

Really the #1 major thing that should help you figure out to lynch him and not me is his inconsistency day 1 treating Coron. First he is a Jester and shouldn't be lynched, then when he gets put at lynch -2 Netlava votes him immediately and starts actively pushing Coron's lynch.

I've been very open about my thought process/deciding process in posts 185, 189, and 192. I think I've shown why I found him more likely to be scum than you and explained why I voted him.

I turned out to be right. I hope you get it right too so my first mafia game can be a successful town victory.

[Airhead]

We lose. Thanks a lot.

Having reviewed the game and giving this game some serious thought, I have decided on who to lynch. Quite frankly, I needed to consult the opinions SirD and I formed from Night 1, which did not significantly help.

Basically, we concluded that Netlava played similar to Lifeofpie (our kill N1), but she made real decisions...

He suggested Airhead was probably town because you spoke way to damn much. And, well, you do.

I speak only enough to adequately make sure I have fully expressed myself.

Now, I am really perplexed as to who is scum and who is town. Honestly, Town's main power seems to be the town aligned mafia and a weak doctor... Other than that, we have townies. So, honestly, I was hoping for at least one power role claim, and yet, there was myself and no one.

*Sigh* my idea to have someone else claim Mafia town aligned would have been awesome, but it was, admittedly, obvious and easily avoided.

All this pointless jabber being said, I think it is time to pick who I am voting....

...

I am having this weird, funny feeling that I am going to regret my choice, but based off of play, Netlava has seemed more protown... She voted for Coron's lynch, and this is after both Net and Airhead repeatedly asked for Coron to respond and participate. So, any argument against one for coaching applies to both.

Airhead, however, ignored a lot of discussion, or simply didn't participate in that discussion. Either way, she seemed to avoid picking a side on anything more than who found her suspect. This feels off to me... so

Vote Airhead

*crosses fingers* please be mafia, please be mafia, please be mafia!

You didn't even consider what I said about Netlava's inconsistency in treating Coron, which looking back just screams that he was scum.

I explicitly explained why I didn't participate in the discussion at some points -- I forgot about the game.

I am really, really disappointed in you Light-kun. You didn't even ask me to explain things, you just skimmed the game and made a decision, and didn't even take into account the arguments I'd made for why Netlava was scum.

I can't really say much else, just I am very disappointed with riboflavin and Light-kun, I think they gave away our two lynches and lost us the game.

See you around fellows.