Open 83 - Polygamist Mafia (Game over!) before 628

[ZeekLTK]

Hi. I replaced MafiaSSK.

I read the last few pages before I agreed to replace in and saw this:

Kill Adel or SpyreX today, if they flip town, I give you all permission to lynch me tomorrow, how's that?

That's how sure I am. If some crazy shtick happens and we are BOTH town (unlikely), then I'll go away losing this game but learning a valuable lesson.

Knight you are finally making sense, thnx.

I see Gimbo is on L-1 and I just replaced in so I don't want to quick hammer him, but I am going to vote for him as soon as I possibly can (either if someone unvotes or if we decide we want to hammer him) because of this quote.

This is such BS and this was used in another game I played (mini 533). The player was anti-town and they were trying to tell us the exact same crap about "lynch so-and-so and if they are town you can lynch me".

In that game it was an anti-town player trying to get us to lynch the (unclaimed) doctor.

Let's look at the logic of "if [Player Name] is town".

-If Gimbo is town: he wants us to lynch a townie and then lynch ANOTHER townie (himself) - how does this help us at all?

-If Gimbo is scum: he wants us to lynch a townie and then claims he will let us lynch him, but this is not going to happen. Most likely he'll try to talk his way out of it the next day and if he does there will be nothing we can do to "recoup" the loss of the townie that we lynched under his "deal" (if we, for some reason, don't lynch him the next day).

Also that's horrible to put the whole game in your hands and say "if I lose, fine, then I learned a lesson" - what about all the other townies in the game? Maybe we don't want to lose so you can "learn a lesson"...

No townie would possibly propose this AND in my experience the only time I've seen someone say this was when they were NOT town.

Now, I haven't read the rest of the game yet. But that is the most blatant anti-town thing I've ever seen and I wanted to call it out, just like I called it out in 533.

[ZeekLTK]

Well, SpyreX unvoted so:

vote Gimbo

[ZeekLTK]

-Gimbo tried to vote before Day started...

-You guys argue about the massclaim that MafiaSSK (me) brought up, eventually do it (mostly because Gimbo forces you to by doing it first)

-Gimbo claims scum... (wtf??)

-Knight votes for Chelsea (vote #4)... quickly unvotes and votes for flea

-Adel notes that Gimbo had previously voted for flea and wonders if Gimbo had tried to distance before deciding to claim flea as his lover.

-Adel and SpyreX are already thinking/talking about what it will take for a quick lynch on Day 2...

-Gimbo tries to make a case against Knight

-Gimbo says "If we vote for the scummiest player on D1, then that takes away the whole purpose of having lover pairs, which is suppose to make things easier." - basically that we shouldn't scum hunt (I tried something like this one in an ongoing game where I was scum and got lynched...)

-chenhsi makes a non-contributing post to just kinda act like "hey I'm here but not doing anything"...

-Nameless attacks most of Gimbo's posts but doesn't vote for him because he "wants to be careful about voting"

-Adel suggests Gimbo/Nameless are scum' Nameless responds by pointing out that Adel's vote on Gimbo is odd considering what he quotes and all the other terrible things Gimbo has said/done...

-Knight says he thinks the scum were quick to claim (Gimbo/flea, Chelsea/chenhshi) to try to get everyone else to claim

-Adel accuses Nameless of defending Gimbo by "attacking his attackers"

-Knight continues to say he thinks Gimbo/flea/chelsea/chen are scum... Gimbo has 4 votes but Knight votes for Chelsea instead

-chenhsi calls out Knight for his vote and tries to get him to revote Gimbo ("if you think we're all scum why don't you vote for Gimbo")

-Knight explains that he thinks if everyone started voting for Chelsea then flea would either have to remove it or leave it there ("like an idiot") if he really was scum with Chelsea

-forbidden claims to be Knight's lover

-SpyreX summarizes Knight's "plan" as being able to claim flea is scum no matter what - which means if Chelsea and flea are both town he would have been setting up 2 straight mislynches to win...

-chenshi guesses that Harvy's lover is Flame; flea votes chenshi for "fishing"

-forbidden says "un FoS nameless" (was that necessary??)

-Knight votes SpyreX for his reaction to the mass claim - also Adel keeps saying that "scum will be the people who are in favor of mass claiming" - he says this over and over again. Maybe the scum noticed this from last game and decided that since some townie would eventually propose a mass claim that they would be vehemently opposed to it and keep citing about how a scum in the last game was the person who proposed it - to get everyone here against the townie who did propose it first, and then when they are wrong they can just say "oh, well I was just basing it on the last game..."

-SpyreX then says "I like how in all of this hulaballoo my statements about this plan being a good scum setup haven't been commented on, at all." - echoing what Adel has been saying about trying to make everyone think the mass claim will automatically come from scum.

-Adel questions flea about "fishing" and basically says "see, Gimbo is doing it too"; flea says that Gimbo is not being subtle like chenshi so therefore it's not "fishing".

-forbidden votes for Gimbo for the WIFOM (several pages/discussions AFTER Gimbo had claimed scum...), tells us to "LAL"...

-Gimbo points out that earlier forbidden didn't attack him, but now that people are voting Gimbo forbidden jumps in

-Gimbo makes his whole "lynch them and then you can lynch me post"
---Chelsea says what I said: "maybe we don't want to lose so you can learn a lesson"

-For some reason forbidden seems to think Gimbo's plan (from his "I'm scum post" is actually a good plan) and says that since Knight (forbidden's lover) is voting differently then by lynching Gimbo he would be the odd man out, thus he unvotes for Gimbo...

-Then forbidden and Knight both agree to vote Gimbo and both do so...

-Firestarter finally makes a post other than "I'm going to be gone" and gives a long recap of the game with his thoughts that concludes in him putting Gimbo on L-1

-Gimbo posts basically a "I concede, go town" (as if he is already resigned to being lynched and to make us think he is town) and then 5 minutes later says "actually don't hammer"... oh really?

-Adel asks Firestarter "who is scum with Gimbo/SSF then" and Firestarter basically lists every other group except his or Adel's.

-Fire asks Adel for who he thinks and Adel doesn't give a definite answer... basically also answers "everyone else" other than Adel or Fire's groups (but doesn't list chen/Chelsea like Fire did)

-Chelsea fan does a "review of each player" but doesn't provide much "depth" for the reviews... says he is going to vote for Harvey but doesn't have a reason for doing so. This is a red flag for me since I know Harvey is town.

-Nameless provides his summary with a vote of Gimbo and suspicion of forbidden

-Forbidden explains why he really wants to lynch Gimbo now - because he either "lied" or is a claimed scum (basically backs up his earlier push to "LAL")

-SpyreX unvotes to take Gimbo off L-1 simply to "follow his lover" (Adel) although he doesn't vote for Knight like Adel did, he just unvotes. Says he wants to look into Knight or Firestarter.

-I come in!

[ZeekLTK]

forbidden, your reaction to a simple recap that I did is rather alarming. All I did was put up a recap so everyone could see how I read the game and so I can scan that over again a few times before drawing conclusions.

All I did was summarize what happened, the fact that you think this makes you look so bad speaks more about how your play makes you look bad than how I described it.

Look at some of the things you quoted. Especially the last one.

You and Knight both talked about voting for Gimbo and then you both did so (in successive posts). How on earth is that me trying to make you look bad by pointing it out? Did you read that and realize it stuck out as something fishy, so you felt like you needed to attack it?

Look at page 9, Posts #205 and #206 - how is my description of that (that you and Knight agree to both vote Gimbo and thus do so) biased at all?

Maybe, as scum, you just have a guilty conscience - so you are paranoid that anything written about you may cast you in a bad light and others will see you as scum?

---

Also I didn't really notice this before, but after looking back at you more specifically...

This is your FIRST reaction to Gimbo's claim of scum:

Ugh...I'm gonna catch hell from him for admitting this, but I am KNIGHT42s lover. To be quite honest, I completely disagree with his plan since it DOESN'T lead to any conclusive evidence.

I'm really confused as to what the hell Gimbo is trying to do, but it'll be interesting to see how that plays out.

Also, it was a random vote on chelsea, but

my lover is voting there as well. sticking there for now as per Gimbo's page 3 instructions

. I also FoS:Nameless for being on board for pair reveals before Gimbo's gambit, and now avoiding doing so. If I missed someone else doing this, please let me know.

You say it will be interesting to see how it plays out, aka you want to wait to see what everyone else makes of it. Besides that, you also cite that you are voting based on what Gimbo's instructions...

Then later you say:

Knight,

vote

Gimbo. This reminds me far too much of another game I played elsewhere. They didn't claim scum, but they did try to use a similar WIFOM argument and coasted to the end on it, resulting in a scum win. I'd rather lynch Gimbo now. And as they say, LAL. If he's town, he's lying, if he's scum, we need to lynch him anyway.

This is very different from your initial reaction of "let's see what happens" and following Gimbo. Now all of a sudden you decide to go against him and bring up something from a past game (why didn't you bring this up initially?) and then try to quantify it with "LAL" (again, why didn't you bring this up initially?).

[ZeekLTK]

In fact the only accusations I made during my summary were against Adel/SpyreX about how they BOTH kept bringing up the fact that in the last game it was scum who proposed the mass-claim - making me wonder if they decided before this game that they would oppose mass claims and just attack everyone who supports them, citing the last game.

As scum, this would be a decent strategy because if they can convince a couple other townies that "the people who want to mass-claim are scum" just because it happened in the last game then they can get a mislynch and even after they are proven wrong they can just say "oh, well we were basing it on the last game, I guess we were just wrong" to try to avoid any suspicion/backlash...

[ZeekLTK]

Well I assumed that you thought it was a "good plan" because you referenced it numerous times and even changed your vote on occasion to coincide with the "plan"... again I don't see how this is biased because it's what actually happened.

[ZeekLTK]

I agree that it was a bad plan, that's why in my summary I pointed out that forbidden was following it, because she was the only one who was treating it like "I have to vote with my lover or else I'll be seen as scummy" when clearly no one else (except for maybe Gimbo) felt this way.

But I also felt like you and (especially) Adel brought up the whole "scum did the mass claim last game" thing a little too much. A couple of references and I probably wouldn't have noticed, but there were so many it made me start to wonder why you two were making such a big deal about it (especially after eventually realizing that you two were lovers).

[ZeekLTK]

How is Harvy scummy because he left his vote on Gimbo?

So after he random votes Gimbo and then Gimbo claims scum and does all this other scummy stuff Harvy is just suppose to remove the vote and put it elsewhere, just because he cast it during the random stage?

Just because it started out as a random vote doesn't mean it was random the entire way. He was perfectly justified in leaving it on Gimbo after everything that has happened since the vote was cast.

[ZeekLTK]

Why did you remove it though?

[ZeekLTK]

Well, regardless of WIFOM what about:

-Gimbo claims scum.

-Gimbo says "If we vote for the scummiest player on D1, then that takes away the whole purpose of having lover pairs, which is suppose to make things easier." - basically that we shouldn't scum hunt (I tried something like this one in an ongoing game where I was scum and got lynched...)

-Gimbo makes his whole "lynch them and then you can lynch me post"

After those 3, I don't see how we can lynch anyone else.

[ZeekLTK]

I am leaning towards Chelsea/chenshi/forbidden/Knight

But I'm hesitant because I could also see Adel/SpyreX/Firestarter/Nameless as being a scum pair too... :/

[ZeekLTK]

I initially suspected Fire & Adel because of their little conversation about "who is Gimbo's partner?" on Day 1 where Fire listed EVERYONE other than his and Adel's as possible pairs for Gimbo... then he asked Adel and Adel gave a similar list except he left off Chelsea (but he also did not include Fire).

It was a small thing but it caught my attention. I would think that being so few pairs, it was odd that NEITHER of them considered the other to possibly be scum.

Then this gem from a few pages ago:

There is also the pairing of Adel & Spyrex.
Most of the posts from this pairing have contained alot of sense, and experience, that is clear. But the really odd thing is the removal of the votes on Gimbo from both of them... and stating that they would be placing their votes back on Gimbo regardless of hammer or not???
This is even more baffling because if there was a major change/mishap/occurence/ in the time that the vote was removed up to the point that they both re-voted, would it have made a difference??? Spyrex himself said that he was not gonna change his mind, as that would have made him look scummy.
Given Gimbo's play, its clear why you suspected Gimbo so much, we all did,, but you did not leave scope to look at other avenues, after unvoting for discussion????
My concern here is the "hardened commitment" to Gimbo.
Saying that, I think that this pairing is the most townish left from the 4 other groups.

He basically attacks Adel/SpyreX (for good reason!) but then says "oh, but other than that they are the most townish". What? That is very odd play from BOTH Adel and SpyreX that you pointed out, but then you just sweep it under the rug at the end of the post? It makes me think he's just making it look like he is attacking them (distancing) but then reminding us not to vote for them because they are "most likely to be townie".

So that's two connections... but I admit they aren't that strong (which is why they weren't my TOP suspects).

Also as soon as Harvey (who I know is town) cast the first vote of the day then all kinds of chaos ensues... Adel immediately votes with Harvey, but then quickly changes it to forbidden (maybe realized it was too opportunistic and wanted to thorw attention elsewhere?)...


However, I would have to say I am still leaning towards voting for forbidden at the moment partially because of what happened earlier in the game (how he got so defensive over a simple recap), the various other things he did on Day 1, and then today after Harvey votes he says "well, hold on a second" but then as soon as Adel puts on vote #2 forbidden does the fasted 180 ever and puts on vote #3 (so, Adel's change is somewhat justified, but I found his sudden vote odd too) just 4 minutes after saying "NO ONE ELSE VOTE CHELSEA".

Also due to the fact that everyone is paranoid of being in LyLo at this situation, I would not discount mafia voting for each other early on knowing that it won't lead to a lynch.

For example, if forbidden/Chelsea are scum as I initially suggested (and still suspect) at the beginning of the day, forbidden's vote on Chelsea was a great act of distancing because now everyone questions whether they are working together and in the end it never really caused Chelsea to be in danger of being lynched (it has actually done the opposite and derailed the bandwagon, it also has SpyreX publicly doubting Chelsea being scum because of the votes he received so far)...

So, in conclusion... hmmm... I need to read it over more, but I figured I would at least explain my suspicion of Adel/SpyreX/Firestarter/Nameless, though I still think forbidden is scummier (as I initially said).

[ZeekLTK]

EBWOP: "fasted" = "fastest"... dunno how I made that typo lol

[ZeekLTK]

I am NOT confident that anyone is town.

I guess I would have my lowest ranking suspect is Firestarter just because all suspicions I have of him basically stem from thinking he is connected to Adel/SpyreX, who have done a few things that have made me raise an eyebrow (like I said, keep bringing up that "mafia will push for a mass-claim" - well, Gimbo was the main person pushing for it and he turned out to be town...)

However, forbidden is by far the scummiest and Chelsea is still pretty scummy from Day 1 (with chenshi now lurking) so...

[ZeekLTK]

The only reason I'm not voting forbidden atm is because I'm still leery of Adel/SpyreX (and therefore Fire/Nameless)...

[ZeekLTK]

Adel what is the point of this list you are compiling and why haven't you provided a name for it?

[ZeekLTK]

I am getting curious as to what you're doing...

It seems to me that compiling a list like this will only help the scum (either yourself or others) determine who the easiest town target is to push for a mislynch (or, at the very least, the hardest target - to stay away from). Maybe you and Fire aren't scum, but you and someone else are... now you see a couple players think Fire is town so you won't go after him because you think it's unlikely he'll be mislynched.

SpyreX and Fire have been listed twice (and me once, but you left that off)... if both (or either) are scum then this list is going to be detrimental to scum hunting because people will see they are "most thought of to be town" and look elsewhere...

I just don't see how it will help the town and DO see how it could help the scum... so I'm wondering why you are doing it.

Also you still didn't say why you haven't given a name.

[ZeekLTK]

Well, I disagree that speculating is a bad idea because when you do it the point is to figure out what the scum might be doing, and once you figure out what they are doing you can figure out how to stop them.

For example, I suspect that you might be scum and trying to set us up for a mislynch somehow with this "list", so I speculated about it so that others can think about it instead of follow it blindly into a possible trap.

Also,

All in all, I could see cases for most anyone being scum but if, right now, I had to say who I thought was town...probably Zeek

[ZeekLTK]

Well, I have a feeling this is just some scheme like you told us about at the beginning of the game, and I'm not going to let it lose the game for the town (if indeed that it what it is aimed at doing, which I suspect it is by all of your vagueness).

Adel, like I've said before, in another game, with a fellow player claiming scum in their 2nd post, and you being a scum in that game, you immediately voted the said player in a seemingly angry way after their 'claim'.

The game he is talking about is Newbie 540.
In that game MoS (who was a townie) claimed to be the Doctor in an early posts. I responded with a double gambit.

In the first level of that gambit I breadcrumbed that I believed him, but went on to posts as if I was sure he was scum. Once some of the newbies in that game started to go along with the wagon I revealed that it was not a sincere wagon, and immediatly joined MoS in persecuting the people who were on his wagon.

I survived the game and won as scum.

I suspect this will be the same thing; you've already alluded to it. Whatever the result is, is something we won't expect, "a surprise", and bam - the town will get blind sided like they did in that game (in the quote). Sounds great... [/sarcasm]

You just want to have a look at the list, work out some scheme, come up with a name that fits your scheme (as your choice) and then somehow set someone up as being the (mis)lynch. And since you only need 2/6 of us to vote with you (since surely your 3 scumbuddies will be right there saying "oh yeah, that's a great plan! let' do it!", you figure there will be two idiot townies that go along with you.

---

All game all you have done is not answered questions directed at you (or only given very vague answers), acted condescending towards others, and not explain anything you have done. How exactly is any of this pro-town play? Heck, you and your partner just conspired to hammered a townie on Day 1 and now you expect us to just "trust you" with whatever you are concocting today without giving us any explanation at all?

And your whole "Chelsea clears Gimbo thing" - you keep bringing that up as such a "great idea" but do we all forget that you admitted to Nameless that it technically wouldn't even have cleared Gimbo if we did it?

[ZeekLTK]

"Adel -> clears -> Chelseafan"

I knew it.

I almost gave that exact example in my last post:

I even typed out "I wouldn't be surprised if you try to tell us you think Chelsea is the most town player and then try to say your whole case against him was crap and you are going to claim you were just saying that to trick/trap people like you did by attacking MoS and then suddenly turning on everyone who followed you in the MoS game".

And sure enough...

[ZeekLTK]

And that explains why you are pissed that chenshi is M.I.A because he can't help you mislynch people.

Vote: Adel

[ZeekLTK]

To expand on Adel and his whole mass claim thing.

Look at his posts...

Several times he says he thinks scum will be the ones wanting a mass claim and his main reason is that he thinks they have broken up into pairs before the game.

But then several other times he says he is opposed to a mass claim because if we don't do it, then the "scum will be disorganized" and possibly slip up.

This is completely inconsistent. If the scum pre-determined their lover pairs before the game then they are still going to know who they should be buddying up with and acting like pairs with. Adel thinks that if they don't claim right away they will forget what they decided on? And that's how Adel is going to catch scum? Seriously?

Also Shy Guy you quoted it, but I don't think you looked at it enough.

ADEL was the one who said "it simplifies the game from 12 to 6" - and gave no reason why that was bad for the town (because it's not). Even after saying that, Adel continued to oppose the mass claim throughout the day, wavering between "scum will want to do it because they pre-planned for it" and "if scum don't do it they will be disorganized and not know who to claim with" (two complete opposite things IMO because how do you expect them to be disorganized if they already pre-planned for it?).

I still think Adel/SpyreX decided before the game that since a scum had brought up the mass claim in the last game that they were going to sit back and wait until someone brought it up and then scream bloody murder and keep saying "scum did it last game, scum did it last game" (SpyreX also points out that "scum did it last game" several times too). Then, after that person gets mislynched they can just say "oh, well we thought it would be like last game - that's why we attacked them" to avoid suspicion for pushing for that person's lynch.

Also this post struck me as very odd too. Adel's first response to the mass claim:

Why should we try it here? One of the townies in that game voted for his partner, are you suggesting that is also a tactic worth repeating?

That's not a good (or correct) analogy. It's actually rather absurd when you really look at it.

All that was suggested was the mass claim, and it was mentioned that they did it in the last game. Just because someone voted their partner in the last game - that has absolutely NOTHING to do with the mass claim idea.

Looking over Adel's posts there is never a real reason given as to why the mass claim is a bad idea - just vehement opposition. The only real "reason" Adel gives is that "it will make it harder for [Adel] to catch scum". Everything else is just saying "the scum suggested it last game" and then speculation saying "the scum *might* be disorganized if we don't" (even though Adel already expects that the scum have pre-planned their pairs anyways).

--------

Nameless what are your suspicions of me and Harvey then? Because every time it is brought up that people think we're town you scoff at it - but never give any reason as to why.[/hr]

[ZeekLTK]

Also, the "lynch Chelsea" plan was discussed (some people act like it never was), but IMO it fell apart after this post:

So why aren't people voting for Chelseafan?

(First of all, I'd just like to make the point that this kind of plan is the exact kind of thing that wouldn't work without a massclaim. Just saying.)

A similar form of logic could force scum to claim a partner other than who he originally wanted to claim, possibly unraveling a web of lies and outing scum in a really clear manner. That is what I was hoping to do by putting off a massclaim until day 2.

Two flaws in the logic, if I've understood it correctly.
1. Scum playing the game particularly risky in hope of being effectively cleared for an easy D2 win. If the more erratic players had already voted and they didn't think those who hadn't wouldn't without discussion ... It's not impossible, is what I'm saying.

It is a tricky judgement call to chose which improbabilities to pursue and which to dismiss.

2.I'm aware the pairing would appear unlikely, but I'm not sure there are four lovers willing to lynch. Both Adel and SpyreX quickly unvoted when Gimbo reached L-1.

This shows that you are a good mafia player. The only way I can disprove the logical conclusion resulting from this train of though is to actually vote to lynch Gimbo, which I am willing to do. I would rather lynch him today rather than tomorrow, because if he survives today's eventual Chelseafan lynch then I will be awefully sure that he is town.

If Chelseafan is town then it's likely Gimbo is town, but not certain.

Nothing is ever certain in mafia, except for when you are a cop in an open game. We have to be content with near-certainity.

Adel admits that lynching Chelseafan would not be certain to clear Gimbo.

Also Adel says that he wants to lynch Gimbo on Day 1 because if it got to Day 2 he'd be "awfully sure" Gimbo was town... hmmmm

[ZeekLTK]

These latest posts by SpyreX confirm to me that it's Adel/SpyreX/Chelsea/chenshi, especially that last post where he just "crosses off" Chelsea/chenshi for no reason...

---

One more thing I forgot to point out from Day 1 - Adel got really defensive when SSF voted for chenshi for "fishing". Adel tried to deflect it back on Gimbo, and when SSF said that "Gimbo wasn't being subtle, so it's not fishing" Adel still continued to fight SSF's vote on chenshi until it was removed.

---

Also mod, I voted for Adel a page or two ago, you must have missed it?

[ZeekLTK]

Also I just noticed that chenshi did not vote at all on Day 1 after the random stage, and his only vote on Day 2 was quickly after Adel had voted for forbidden, but then when a couple people started unvoting, he did as well.

Scum hunt much?

[ZeekLTK]

So most of your "suspicion" of me is that I voiced concern/suspicions about you guys yesterday, and am following up on it today? That really makes sense...

I'm starting to think SpyreX listed me as town because he saw that, at the time, I was mostly in favor of lynching forbidden. He probably figured by listing me as town I'd drop my earlier suspicions of his group and join his partner, Adel, in going after forbidden. If forbidden is town then Adel/SpyreX and whoever their scum partners are (either Firestarter or Chelsea - still not 100% sure which it is, so that's why I'm voting Adel instead of one of them) will have 4 votes to contribute and then me and Harvey would likely be the other 2 that would have mislynched forbidden and lost the game for the town.

But once I relooked at everything and decided I my initial suspicions of Adel (and thus SpyreX) were something to look into, and I started going after them, SpyreX suddenly wants to change his "town" player to Chelsea. Nice...

What has changed in my play to make me go from "most town" to "most suspicious" other than the player I've gone after? Nothing.

---

And yeah, I saw your "reason" but that's not really a reason. - hence my comment. Was Chelsea lynched? No. So we don't know if there was distancing/bussing going on. I find it alarming that you and Adel both keep trying to tell the town that scum will never bus each other in this game. The fact that the stakes are so high (LyLo already) and townies are so cautious to vote near the end of wagons means it is highly likely that scum will (and probably have already) bus each other knowing that the wagon will be flimsy and easy to disband if it does get going.

[ZeekLTK]

Bah, I see, Nameless was a little quicker than me in bringing up the point about bussing.

But I'm glad someone else realizes it too.

[ZeekLTK]

Harvey there is a difference between defending yourself and attacking someone just because they are attacking you.

SpyreX listed me as "most town" when I had forbidden as my main suspect, but now that Adel is my main suspect suddenly SpyreX says I am "most suspicious". Really?

[ZeekLTK]

So one of your main things against me is because I'm specifically going after one person... you've never seen me do this as town before? (*cough* PEG *cough*)

[ZeekLTK]

Also you claim that I stopped suspecting forbidden because no one else was looking at her. But Adel and chenshi both voted for forbidden at the beginning of Day 2...

[ZeekLTK]

@Zeek

Good lord. You want to know why I changed my opinion on you.

Early on Day 2 you made very calm statments. 406-407 for example. Your suspicions of us, even there, didn't really bother me (in the sense of making you seem scummy).

Because at this time I say forbidden is my top suspect and the only reason I'm not voting him is because I am still leary of you and Adel... you probably see this as "oh ok, all we have to do is make Zeek less suspicious of us and he'll vote for forbidden"

Then, I say I think you're the most town because, at this point, it really seems like you're trying to do what you can and you're open to avenues.

Or because you're trying to get me to drop my suspicions of you and hopefully focus on forbidden.

Then you ask Adel why she hasn't provided a name, which is fine.

THEN, you extrapolate this to be us figuring out someone to mislynch before the information is even there. This is where I start to get bothered some by your play.

After I asked Adel what the list was about and why there was no name provided I started to go back and look at all of Adel's posts. I kept seeing numerous things that bothered me, like Adel constantly not answering questions, not explaining why he opposed the mass claim, giving hints that he has done things to "trick the town" before, etc.

Especially given his response. Prior to asking, I was trying to figure it out myself, and I couldn't come up with any pro-town use for this list. All I could come up with was ways it could help the scum, so his non-response of "why are you getting nervous? the point is to collect data to out scum" also set off red flags because I had already determined that this list was not going to help the town and here he is claiming it will "out scum".

I went back and analyzed all of Adel's quotes from Day 1 and was about to make a big post, but decided not to for the time being.

Then, Firestarter starts pushing with your case about validity...

Well, I hadn't made an entire case, so this was somewhat valid assessment.

From this point on, I dont think I've seen you mention anything but Adel and you have been attacking AND the cases are weak.

This is what I addressed a few posts ago, which seems to me you are saying: "this is the point I really think makes you scummy, because now all you do is focus on Adel" - so I addressed it.

Post 450: You say this is some scheme copied from her 540 game. That we're going to look at the list of nonsuspects and, from it, pull a name and two "idiot townies" are going to along to us. You then start attacking her play all game with lots of sarcasm quotes.

Yeah... and? This makes me scummy how?

My reply to some of your questions in 450, as far as I can tell, were just ignored totally.

I probably didn't think it was too important and just skipped it. But if you want something answered bring it up again.

Your next post, 482: I almost gave this exact example (yet you didn't) and you're saying the case on lynching Chelsea day 1 was crap (I dont think it was a case as much as a logic exposition)

I didn't because I realized if I gave that example it would influence the name he said. If I tip him off that I'm already wary that he is going to tell us Chelsea, maybe he gives a different name...

And I wasn't saying the case on Chelsea was crap, I was saying he was going to tell us it was with something like: "see, I made the case on Chelsea Day 1, but I really didn't believe it. I wanted to see who would follow me and then out them as scum" (which wouldn't out scum at all, but I imagine it would make some people THINK it did - like they incorrectly thought it did in his previous game).

Basically what he did to screw the town in the game he summarized early on here with the whole "I started a bandwagon on MoS but then revealed I didn't think MoS was scum and then got the townies who followed me lynched" - I figured he was going to do the same thing except use Chelsea instead of MoS (and sure enough - he did).

Right after, you vote for her because she's pissed that Chenshi is M.I.A to help us mislynch?

No, I voted him because he listed Chelsea (and I described in the post above it). But I also wanted to point out how he seemed to be upset that chenshi was M.I.A.

Shy Guy then posts putting suspicion on us.

You, not long after, come out more agressive (497). Again, you extrapolate a situation where you've pre-assumed we are scum and what we would do. This includes saying we have never said why mass claim (out of the gate) was a bad idea (P.S. I said why it would make sense not to more than once).

Shy Guy posted suspicions that I had but hadn't posted in the thread. Seeing another player find the exact same things that I had found gave me more confidence in my case, so naturally I came out more aggressive since I was no longer in doubt about my suspicions.

I didn't feel it necessary to completely say everything he had said again, so I just posted tidbits that I felt he had missed (either hadn't noticed or neglected to point out).

You then in the next post say that lynching Chlesea would not be certain to clear Gimbo, but willfully leave of the latter half (near-certainty) which is the whole idea. You then toss in that Adel wants to lynch Gimbo because he'd be awfully sure Gimbo was town with a little hmm.

Yeah I was pointing out that the whole idea was wrong/bad. That near-certainty is not a good thing. If you are going to lynch someone to confirm someone else, you need to be able to confirm the other person, not just be "close enough". Otherwise, what is the point? Then you still have a player that there is doubt about...

And I found Adel's quote about "I'm awfully sure Gimbo is town, so I want to lynch him today" to be quite scummy... if he was awfully sure Gimbo was town then WHY WOULD HE WANT TO LYNCH HIM?? That was the point I was trying to make.

When you next chime in, you're now certain because I crossed them off for "no reason" - disagreeing with why I personally cross them off isn't no reason. You then push ANOTHER odd claim from Adel and again ignore my questions about it.

I explained this. There was no good reason to cross them off. If you consider that the scum may have bussed then you have no reason to cross them off.

Then, 549 (we're getting to present) you make another statement about my intentions followed up as an expose' into my thought process which, of course, is wrong and, again, is built around the assumption I am scum.

Well, to me this is what happened:

-I said I was suspicious of forbidden and only slightly weary of Adel
-You listed me as the "most town" player
-Adel became my top suspect
-You suddenly list me as "most suspicious" and vote for me

I have to wonder if maybe your reason for listing me "most town" maybe wasn't legit and you have other motives (which is all I suggested, although more lengthy, in that post).

[ZeekLTK]

I've been busy, don't really have anything to add.

Clearly SpyreX isn't willing to believe anything I say. And the fact that he is attacking me for things that he knows I do as town (we just played a game together where we were both town) pretty much confirms to me that he's not interested in scum hunting but just pushing a mislynch. So I'm keeping my vote...