Open 62 - Strawberry Mafia - Game Over! before 568

[neko2086]

vote: scigatt

for posting without making a random vote, and for trying to pre-empt any scummy thing he does by playing the newbie card

Note: this vote is partly random, partly serious

[neko2086]

I can look at what he's posted and tell you that he is a newbie that knows not what he does. The first newbie mistake is to assume that the scum are all idiots and will fall into any trap you set. I honestly thought his first post was sarcastic until he FOSd people for not voting him.

[neko2086]

Sarcasm doesn't really translate well over the internet.

So, you voted me why, exactly? Because I have no sense of humor?

[neko2086]

FoS: Near

Seriously?

Haven't we gone over this already? Or are you being sarcastic too?

[neko2086]

marmalade, you didn't answer my question, rather you asked a question that I had already answered.

[neko2086]

So you really are voting for me because I have no sense of humor? You know, there are people who are actually voting or FOSing Near who didn't pick up on the sarcasm. I wrote it off as a bad newbie move, but certainly not a scum move. What I was really trying to get at in my post about him is that I find the people attacking him most suspicious, because the scum will attack the easy target if they can get away with it, especially on D1. This is exactly why I wanted to confirm the motivation behind Scigatt's move. I think I'm happy with my vote where it is.

[neko2086]

I agree it's been blown out of proportion, but I wouldn't say it doesn't matter, rather, it makes it all the more important. We have to get out of random voting stage somehow, and that requires obtaining information. Don't you find the reactions to Near, and the reactions to those reactions interesting at all?

Anyway, I would think that if you're a townie, you'd want to help get us out of random voting stage rather than waiting for it to happen. So, if you don't like the way it's going now, do you have any better ideas?

I have a proposal. As an alternative to the Near-wagon, why don't we run up a scigatt-wagon? I think it could be quite informative.

Any takers?

[neko2086]

[quote="xtoxm]
Why Scigatt for a random wagon?
[/quote]
It is anything but random from my part.

What kind of information are you hoping to get out of scigatt by wagoning him?

Discussing that right now would defeat the purpose. The best thing to do is let it happen and draw conclusions later.

[neko2086]

Taking the opportunity to fix my tags. @ tags

Why Scigatt for a random wagon?

It is anything but random from my part.

What kind of information are you hoping to get out of scigatt by wagoning him?

Discussing that right now would defeat the purpose. The best thing to do is let it happen and draw conclusions later.

Or you could not be so vague and explain some things.

The only thing I'm willing to explain at the moment is why I feel a wagon on Scigatt is justified. That should be pretty obvious though. What information I hope to gain from the wagon should not be discussed. We don't want to tell the scum what we are or aren't expecting them to say/do, do we? Unless of course you're scum, then you'd love for me to tell you all that. Wagon (or not) now, conclusions later, mkay? I'll let ya know when I've found what I'm looking for.

[neko2086]

So you expect us all to blindly follow you on a wagon against scigat?

Don't worry bout it. As ThAdmiral has pointed out, I've said too much already.

Can you at least give me a reason as to why him?

Just look at his posts so far and you should be able to figure it out.

[neko2086]

Such as ThAdmiral who has posted a lot of posts, not a lot of content, but a lot of bandwagoning.

Hm, I agree, except, 4 posts= a lot of posts? For the moment, I couldn't think of a better target than Scigatt, though.

let's get scigatt to -2.
then we lynch the last two people to put the hammer down on him!

Now would be the time to start being less sarcastic, if you are indeed being so here.

[neko2086]

a random bandwagon with intent to pressure is only going to get a response of 'town'... let's face it, the cop doesn't want ot be outed if there's no doc, and the scum aren't going to be honest about who they are.

Well, I am waiting to hear from scigatt, but he's not the only one that we can get information out of from this.

The cop wouldn't want to be outed even if we did have a doc, which of course, we know we don't. Here's a question for you, do you want to know who the cop is?

And, of course the scum aren't going to tell us they're scum... I don't know what you're getting at there...

[neko2086]

I wouldn't vote ThAdmiral solely based on his position on the bandwagon, but I wouldn't say your vote is misplaced. Yvonne has a point about him. He's really contributed nothing thus far.

Do I want you lynched? No. Not at the moment, anyway. Not unless I think your scum, and for the moment, I don't think so. You made a less than impressive entrance into this game, and I wanted to see how people would react to a bandwagon on you.

It really didn't help as much as I'd hoped it would, but it did get a little bit of info. This is what I saw:

Near, I think, is still in random voting stage in his head. If he doesn't start taking this game seriously, soon, I'd be worried, as it is not helpful to the town at all.

Peers criticized the bandwagon as a start to D1 without really offering any alternative. This doesn't seem very proactive to me.

Yvonne, on the other hand, avoided the bandwagon, but she looked for a more viable scum suspect. Very pro-town move, imo.

ThAdmiral... I dunno. He's always a hard read. He hasn't really given us anything to work with yet, which would make me think he's more likely scum than town, at the moment, but we're only on page 3, so things ought to be changing rapidly soon.

Snix avoided the wagon like the plague, and I'm not sure of his motives yet. He seemed on one hand, very suspicious of it, which he ought to be, and yet, he seemed to be trying very hard to figure out what I was expecting/not expecting to hear. The purpose of the wagon is to get candid responses, and if you let everyone know what you're expecting to get out of it, that's what they'll give you.

Cephrir joined to get information as well. He seems like he's pro-town at the moment. Unless things change drastically, I'd say he's not going to be today's lynch. ThAdmiral seemed to have joined to get info as well, so I'm a bit hesitant to say he's leaning more scum than town. We just can't know yet.

Now, quick notes not related to the wagon:

Jester seems fine so far. He's being proactive. I don't think he'll be the lynch for today.

xtoxm said

Why Scigatt for a random wagon?

Yvonneseer has the least posts with... 1!

Okay it's only page 3, but we should be trying to get everyone talking now, I think.

His posts so far this game, not including the above:

Hey all!!

vote Cephrir

"None" as scum, how scummy is that?

Anyone who PEG likes is obviously scum.

Obviously.

Sarcasm doesn't work well over the internet, I didn't see it at all either.

I must be missing something. Lol.

Nothing of any real substance, yet he'd like contribution from others.

Malthusis hasn't really given us anything at all. It would be wonderful to hear from him very soon.

Marmalade had a problem with people attacking Near, so he voted me. Why me? I also had a problem with people attacking Near, but for different reasons. Marmalade really never gave any reason that points to me being scum. If he really did care about finding the scum going after an easy target, he'd be voting the people voting or FOSing Near, such as malthusis and scigatt. He would not be making up an excuse to vote for me.

Looking at the list of people here, I think the best place for my vote at the moment is

unvote; vote: Marmalade

. If you can effectively address my concerns, I may reconsider.

[neko2086]

No, I'm not the controller of the lynch. That's why I said "I'd say" you're not the lynch. If anyone has any reason to think otherwise, I'd love to hear it, but in my opinion there is not enough information against you or Jester that would make you viable lynch candidates.

As far as malthusis goes, I am waiting to hear something from him. He hasn't given us anything, and I can't really say much about him until he does. When he does say something, I'll let you know what I think of him. If he is absent for much longer, I'll be incredibly upset.

The second quote, btw, concerns xtoxm, not scigatt. I've posted every single post he's made. They should speak pretty clearly for themselves.

[neko2086]

Take a look at your own posts and tell me what you've down to contribute to the town. That is what I'm saying.

[neko2086]

The length of the post has less to do with what constitutes contribution than

content

does. If you can give us a one-liner that helps us find scum, then OK. Let's look at your posts, though. What have you posted that brings us any closer to finding scum? Have you attempted any sort of analysis? Have you seriously weighed in on who you think is town or scum, and have you provided any sort of evidence that leads to such a conclusion?

Or, have you simply been posting for the sake of posting to say that you are here?

[neko2086]

you're both defending Near (saying he made a newbie mistake) and attacking him (saying he believes scum are idiots) in the same post. Am I reading it properly?

The second part is really part of the first one, so I wasn't really attacking him there.

I don't see the case against Near as very strong. I don't think he's been the most helpful player so far, but, I don't see him doing anything particulary scummy yet. I'm just glad to see him posting seriously.

[neko2086]

o wow.

The random scigatt wagon could have easily been a excuse to make people vote for him so the mafia could hammer him and whenever anybody asks him why he says 'Pressure him first, ask later' makes me definatly suspicous.

Yes, except it was obviously not going to lead to a lynch. I'm going to assume that the scum are thinking a little bit, and that they wouldn't in their right minds hammer a random wagon.

Cephrir seems pretty pro-town except for his opinion switch on neko during the wagon.

He's already addressed this. What about his explanation did you not like?

Snix has a been another big contributer to the thread. He seems to be totally convinced by neko, and they seem to be working together (expecially on the wagon).

I don't see that at all. What brought you to that conclusion?

Jester's few posts were very informative...

I wish I could say the same for you

but I'd like to see him post more.

that's rich

There's not much info for the other people right now (and not much in general considering how long this thread's gone on).

You have no opinion about the interaction between yvonne and thadmiral? Or just thadmiral? What about Scigatt? Peers? Marmalade? They've all posted, there just hasn't been discussion around them that much.

I notice that your analysis here depends largely on discussion that's already taken place, and even then you seem to have missed out on some things.

Who are you most suspicious of? Is there anything in particular you'd like them to address?

[neko2086]

Of course. Does that mean they should not be discussed? What I'm saying is that malthusis, after being prodded, brings us an analysis that, in my eyes, is not very original except for his analysis of Snix. I'd like for him to elaborate on some things so that we can get a better read from him and have more discussion.

Also, Peers, in your last few posts, you seem to be most concerned with the length of the thread. Do you have any thoughts on the game yet? Do you suspect anybody in particular? Are there any concerns you'd like anyone to address?

[neko2086]

You seem to have overreacted by a bit in your response to him (the "I wish I could say the same for you" seems particularly snarky and attempting to devalue his statement).

Do you find his posts to be informative? Do you not see anything strange about somebody who posted once, needed to be prodded, posts little content, then asks somebody else to post more?

I'm not trying to devalue his statement so much as I'm trying to get more information from him. Thoroughness from everyone will only help the town.


Xtoxm, what exactly don't you like about malthusis' analysis?

[neko2086]

Xtoxm, what exactly don't you like about malthusis' analysis

I hope you aren't ignoring me.

[neko2086]

unvote; vote: Xtoxm

The town should feel inclined to always share as much information as they possibly can. They should also invest at least a little bit of interest in finding scum. So far, you've done neither, even when given the chance.

When you voted malthusis, you did so only after I had already criticized his post. You added absolutely nothing and voted for him. This, to me, looks like a diversion. After you have been criticized by a few people, you've taken the opportunity to keep attention shifted to somebody else who might possibly be scummier than you. This makes me much more nervous about you than him.


Marmalade, I'm still looking forward to hearing more from you.

[neko2086]

Hm. What leads you to that conclusion?

[neko2086]

Snix has a been another big contributer to the thread. He seems to be totally convinced by neko, and they seem to be working together (expecially on the wagon).

I don't see that at all. What brought you to that conclusion?

You didn't see this? Heh. How about all of pages 2 and 3, neko? malthusis is right. Snix was following you around like a puppy, following your opinions and answering all of your questions and ignoring everyone else's. It's in my notes, too. I just didn't want to comment on it yet.

Page 2, ok, I can see that, but starting page 3 he avoided the scigatt wagon like the plague.


Yvonne, thAdmiral, do you have opinions on anyone besides each other?

Peers, while gut voting might work for you, it's really not going to fly as a valid excuse (for me, anyway). If you'd like to contribute to an argument against xtoxm, that would be helpful, which is something you should try to be if you're town. Right now, we have no way of knowing if you really are going off gut, or if you're using that as an excuse to wagon without explanation. Also, when it comes down to it, a 'gut' scum read usually stems from a general playstyle that seems scummy for an initially unnamable reason (which is then called gut), but when analyzed, can usually be credited to specific things. Does that make sense at all?

[neko2086]

OK, this game is starting to lag. Let's not let it die, ok?

Mod: prod malthusis, yvonneseer, scigatt, and marmalade

please, as they haven't posted in over a week.

Prodded

Cephrir and thadmiral, do you have any thoughts on where you might place votes?

I'm thinking it might be helpful for us to start narrowing down lynch candidates. This should stimulate discussion enough to keep us moving along. I personally think the case against thadmiral is one of the weaker ones, as I don't think he joined the scigatt wagon under

any

sort of impression that it would lead to a lynch.

Peers on the other hand, doesn't have any votes on him, whereas I think he merits some. He's drawing a connection between myself and xtoxm without backing it up at all, and voting for xtoxm without any sort of reasoning. I almost want to switch my vote to him, but xtoxm's play still bothers me. After doing a quick meta on him, I see that he doesn't always make such short, contentless posts. I'm going to keep my vote where it's at for the time being.

[neko2086]

Do you think Near is scum? Why do you feel you can't vote peers? Do you think you are on the verge of being lynched?

Remember, as of yet there is no deadline. We have plenty of discussion time.

[neko2086]

I think Yvonne's play so far does deserve some criticism, especially if she has picked up her prod and refused to answer my question. She has only made four posts: 1 random vote on peers and 3 posts redirecting conversation to ThAdmiral.

ThAdmiral, then, appears to be a haphazardly chosen target. On the other hand, I've seen scumteams attack each other relentlessly for distancing. I thought the case on him was fairly weak before, but then he said this:

Do you think Near is scum?

Not really but I think he's probably a better choice than most. Basically all he has done is try to draw attention to himself by looking scummy. His only real posts of any length discuss the definition of sarcastic vs. ridiculous, or something like that.

which Near called out, asking who the better candidates would be and who he'd rather be voting. I'd also asked if he thought he was about to be lynched and he said:

Probably not but I am only one vote off being lynch leader and if it comes down to it I would rather myself staying alive than someone else I don't know the alignment of.

which is interesting considering they were both at 2 votes and there was no deadline. It's perhaps a slight scumtell, but a weak one if it is. The rest of what he has posted so far hasn't alarmed me in any way.

However, I am curious about the fact Cephrir ignores what has been happening recently (e.g. regarding Yvonne) and has merely questioned Snix's vote in his most recent post.

I'd agree, but I think his question is in need of being answered. Snix's argument on Cephrir wasn't incredibly strong, and I'm not sure he ever answered Cephrir when he asked how his arguments actually pointed to him being scum. If Snix thinks Cephrir is scum, he ought to be telling us why so as to be productive, rather than just be voting for the sake of voting.

[neko2086]

So Snix, you had an argument against Cephrir, which he addressed satisfactorily, but you still think he's scum anyway? Did I correctly assess that?

[neko2086]

As it is in the best interest to have a lynch before deadline, it wouldn't be too hard to get a lynch. I really don't think anyone would want to face the consequences of being responsible for a no-lynch. If someone clings onto a pointless vote at deadline, say if Snix were to be the only one voting Cephrir, I would think he was scum trying to avoid joining a bandwagon and being responsible for a townie lynch, or trying to avoid getting a scumbuddy lynched.

Anyway, this is why I'm suggesting we start narrowing down suspects. If Snix had a really good reason to vote Cephrir, that'd be great, but he doesn't, so I'm not sure what he's trying to accomplish.

[neko2086]

Any particular reason, admiral? I agree with you somewhat, but not completely. I actually shared xtoxm's sentiments about cop-fishing, but that's just one instance that made me uneasy. Otherwise, she seems to be playing pro-town. It's too early, imo, to come up with anything conclusive, so I'm interested to hear what prompted you to start doling out townie points.

Yvonne, it is probably in your best interest to start contributing. Your last post is neither amusing nor helpful.

[neko2086]

Sorry to hear about your grandma, scigatt.

[neko2086]

Yvonne, why do you feel that your vote and lack of consideration for any other lynch candidate is reasonable contribution for today? What do you think you are accomplishing, exactly? How do you expect the town to react to this?

In the meantime, I wouldn't suggest putting more votes on her. I personally would like to get her talking, and if she refuses, I'd like her to be replaced. I do not see her play helpful whether she is town or scum.

[neko2086]

Actually, I'd rather replace an inactive than lynch one. Apparently you didn't see my reasoning--I don't see her play helpful (to her, if that clears it up) whether she is town or scum. She's not convincing anyone to vote Admiral, which is something she should want to do.

At any rate, getting people to talk only helps us. More talking and participation, and longer days are helpful to the town. So, if she's not going to participate, I don't really want her in this game. I'd rather get somebody else in who is willing to contribute to discussion.

This would actually stimulate discussion and increase momentum. If I'm killing momentum, it's to keep a hasty lurker-lynch from happening.

That said, why don't you give me a good reason for lynching her rather than replacing her? I'm assuming that you're voting her for a lynch and not just for pressure.

[neko2086]

Sorry for my inactivity, but this is what I've been waiting for.

What do you think you are accomplishing, exactly? How do you expect the town to react to this?

Yvonne I would like answers to these two questions,

especially

the second one.

Now, Yvonne, you keep asking everyone else to provide evidence that ThAdmiral is town. This is probably fair. But, you are not providing further evidence that he is scum. You are still riding your original suspicions and asserting that he's not done anything pro-town since,

but you've not qualified this or proved it in any way

.

[neko2086]

xtoxm, please don't encourage lurking. Thanks.

I still support lynching xtoxm, and as many of you have FOSd him, I think he's a possibility. He wants more contribution, he doesn't want the game to die, but he's just not doing anything about it (and actually encourages lurking!). A deadline could stimulate discussion, true. But asking for one, when he has accumulated quite a bit of suspicion, is suspicious in itself. It looks like he's trying to save himself by forcing an yvonne lynch, which, is where we're currently headed.
One thing that makes me think he might be town, however, is his discouragement of cop discussion. Scum could have just let this go.

I think my second choice would lie among Snix, jamesthephox, or yvonne.

Snix seems to be approaching this game with more concern about keeping as much attention off himself as possible.
-Early on, he made sure to defend himself before addressing Cephrir's response to his case, which isn't all too terrible, but somewhat important to note.
-He was voting Cephrir for a long time without much reason, which looks like voting for the sake of voting and looking active.
-When Yvonne made her less than impressive entrance, he criticizes her and says

If you aren't trying to get lynched then I don't know what you're doing.

which begs the question--if you think she's trying to get lynched, then why would you vote for her?
-Snix accuses me of trying to stifle discussion and asks for a good reason to replace rather than lynch. I respond and ask for a good reason to lynch rather than replace. He never answers.
-Rather than answering my question, he tries to draw a connection between myself, scigatt, and yvonne, asking if anyone else sees the connection. Keep in mind that he never explains what connection

he

sees. So Snix, could you explain your rationale there?

jamesthephox, hasn't really done anything, and if he's been busy, that's fine. I wish he would be more active, because I was disappointed to have Peers disappear while waiting for answers from him, and I don't want to just forget about him for D1 because of a replacement. So James, if you really need to replace, please do so now so that we can keep the game moving (this goes for Jester as well, but I think he's already made that decision). If you can contribute, great.
I think the case for Peers was clear, and since he never responded to my questions, I don't think I have anything new to add to it, but I'll go over it again if necessary.

Yvonne needs to respond. It ought to be painfully clear that if

so many

people are suspicious of her behavior, she can't just attribute it to opportunistic scum or something like that, which is what it sounds like she's trying to do. It is also a bit ridiculous to demand a rebuttal to your case that she's hardly made.

[neko2086]

Thank you for your prompt response. Just a couple things...

If I didn't want people to notice me, if I truly was trying to keep attention off myself I wouldn't really attack a person who almost every one else thinks is town.

You're totally right. You would be voting somebody who everyone else thinks is scum...

Why not appease the lady? If she doesn't want to act town then we shouldn't treat her like town.

The problem is that she appears to be deliberately acting scummy. I don't like it either, and I've outlined why, but that in itself makes a pretty weak case, imo. If you're going to support lynching her, I would hope you've got more than 'well, she asked for it.'


As far as the Yvonne-scum possibility... a self-destructing scum is actually a wonderful bussing opportunity, not a situation in which you'd ask for replacement.

Now, what I really wanted to know about your case was if you had drawn this connection from recent posts or from the whole thread. How sure are you that you've found the entire scum-team from a few posts?


I just noticed that my last post ended with "It is also a bit ridiculous to demand a rebuttal to your case that she's hardly made" which should have read "...a rebuttal to

a

case that she's hardly made."

[neko2086]

xtoxm, longer days are good for the town.

Yvonne's replacement is very troubling. I wanted her replaced if she wasn't going to participate. Well, she started participating, but when the pressure was too much, she ditched. We can't hold the replacement entirely accountable, but that doesn't mean they get a clean slate.

[neko2086]

Only 3, actually, since scigatt unvoted you and voted xtoxm, which was the correct move. Also, Cephrir did have some reasoning for you, and you responded to some of his concerns, but I don't think you hit all of them. The problem with Cephrir's reasoning, though, is that it all ends up boiling down to "gut" again, so essentially, I would say that ThAdmiral is right on this one. There have not been any convincing arguments presented against him.

Ectomancer, thanks for replacing in. Looking forward to hearing more from you, including more detailed analyses. Also, you seem to have an idea of what Yvonne was trying to accomplish. Can you elaborate on it?

Near, I think we've already established that before one defends oneself, one has to have something to defend against. If you're not going to present an argument, don't expect thAdmiral to respond. Please don't be intentionally useless like Yvonne. We know how well that panned out for her.

[neko2086]

We all jumped on xtoxm because he is the scummiest person here. That, or people just want to join the most justified wagon. Details to follow.

What do I think of ecto? I think he's much more level-headed than Yvonne. Unfortunately for him, Yvonne's actions will have to count as a strike against him, but since there's nothing he can do about her actions, we can't just base a lynch off of that. Yvonne left questions unanswered, and Ecto can't answer them. What we

can

do is hold him accountable for his own actions, which, so far, seem fairly legit.

What I do want to know, though, is if he has finished rereading the whole thing, not just the last few pages, and if his decision will change. He may have joined the xtoxm wagon because xtoxm just happened to have said one of the most recent scummy things, and ecto had only read back a few pages.

[neko2086]

Marmalade, it was OMGUS, not WIFOM he was worried about. It isn't OMGUS, but some people are of the opinion that any time you vote for someone who is voting for you, it's OMGUS. Ecto provided reasoning, so it isn't.

Also, Dizzy appears to be in England somewhere, so, mocking her in a valley-girl tone is inappropriate and unnecessary. It suffices to say that there is a HUGE difference between not paying attention to peoples' stats than the actual game. The left column is not nearly as important as the right, as the former has nothing to do with alignment, which is what we're trying to figure out.

That said, I thought about mock-FOSing xtoxm for also missing Dizzy's gender, but then I realized that it has actually become a part of discussion. So, the fact that he got it wrong after it had been discussed makes me think he's not really reading the thread. I don't know if I can conclude that based on one post, but I think it's note-worthy.

Xtoxm, what makes you think Dizzy is town?

ThAdmiral, I'm curious to know what you think of Dizzy atm as well.

I'm going to piggy-back off of scigatt's question--Dizzy, why are you so sure Ecto will be lynched?

[neko2086]

Fair enough, but I haven't had any reason to remove my vote. Can you explain what you mean by editorializing? I'm trying to keep discussion going, asking questions and whatnot. Would you like me to repost my thoughts on xtoxm every other time I post? I'm not sure what you want from me, exactly. If you're wondering if I'd still like to lynch xtoxm, the answer is yes. When the answer is no, I will let everyone know by voting somebody else.

Until then, I am going to keep my vote on him and questioning others to see if there are other possible candidates. I'm not so narrow-minded that I think he's the only possible candidate for today, which is exactly why I'm not just yet fighting for his lynch. I want to make sure I don't think there is a better candidate first.

I will start pulling for his lynch if/when I think the time is right. But, I think we still have much discussion to do. If the day ends and you still think I've held a soft vote on xtoxm, then you, and anyone else, can hold me to it. But I think by the end of the day you'll figure out my playstyle.

Is there a particular reason you would like me to not vote xtoxm? Also, am I to assume that your answer to my earlier question for you is that you are now suspicious of Yvonne? Have you been "seriously attacking someone" more than I have?

Let me know if my answer to you is not sufficient, and if not, why. Answers to my own questions would also be appreciated.

[neko2086]

admiral, to me, scum-hunting is not just attacking someone. I see the discussion as scum-hunting, as the more info we get out here, the more we have to work with.

See this is one of my main problems - why are you so dependent on what other people think to decide on who your lynch candidate should be? You seem to have a pretty good grasp of what's going on in this game - go after someone yourself.

When I say I question people to see if there are other candidates, I don't mean I'm asking them who I should be voting for. I mean I'm asking people questions about their gameplay so that I can reads on them based on their answers. Again, this, to me, is scum-hunting.

I don't want you voting for xtomx if you don't really think he's scum and just can't think of anywhere else to put your vote.

Again, if I don't think he's scum, I'll let everyone know by voting someone else. So at the moment, I think he's the most likely scum. No, I might not be attacking him every single post of mine, rather I'm engaging in discussion with others to make sure I don't think

they

are scum, instead. Does that make sense now?

I'd like those details now if you please...

The "details to follow" were in regards to why others might be joining the xtoxm wagon. But, I'll answer your question.

Alot of this I've laid out already, so I'll be summarizing some of it:
- after making a total of 4 substanceless posts, he asks others to contribute more
- votes malthusis with no reasoning, ignores my question asking about it, when asked again, says "I just don't like it..."
- continually asks for a deadline when none is needed
[one major pro-town factor to consider- xtoxm discourages cop-hunting, while dizzy seems to enjoy this]
- votes Yvonne for not posting "productively," something he's done little of himself
- encourages lurking (post 244)
- advocates a quicklynch on Yvonne, despite a replacement being sought for her
- most recently, I somewhat suspected he might not actually be reading the thread.
- also gives a very weak defense of Dizzy

Generally, his play is in line with an actively lurking scum. He posts mostly for the sake of posting, and votes mostly for the sake of voting. Admiral, if you want to find somebody who's not getting their "hands dirty," go back and see if you can find any arguments from him.
He seems incredibly antsy to get D1 over with, actually discouraging discussion in favor of just lynching Yvonne right before she gets replaced.

When/if I find a more compelling case against someone else, I'll put it out there and change my vote.


Back to my normal mode:
Dizzy, I had a question for you earlier I'd like answered. It may be minor, but I'd still like to hear an answer.

Snix, xtoxm, james, at some point, you'll have to make an argument that Ecto (not just Yvonne) is scum. Otherwise, your votes are useless. Yvonne can no longer answer questions.

[neko2086]

Snix, you're totally right. I should be pulling for a better wagon. ThAdmiral should be pleased to see that I've found a better one finally worth commenting on.

vote: Snix

First of all, let's talk about Yvonne. You obviously weren't paying attention during this period, because I wanted her replaced when she

wasn't

active. Remember that? "I'm lost"...no post...no post...no post..."my vote is all the contribution you get from me today" or something similar. That is when I asked for her replacement

if she wasn't going to participate

. Do you not remember this conversation? You even asked me about it and I answered you.

Give me a good reason for replacing her rather than lynching her?

Actually, I'd rather replace an inactive than lynch one. Apparently you didn't see my reasoning--I don't see her play helpful (to her, if that clears it up) whether she is town or scum. She's not convincing anyone to vote Admiral, which is something she should want to do.

At any rate, getting people to talk only helps us. More talking and participation, and longer days are helpful to the town. So, if she's not going to participate, I don't really want her in this game. I'd rather get somebody else in who is willing to contribute to discussion.

Yvonne posts and starts participating, and, while you would like everyone to believe I kept pulling for her replacement, I actually started engaging her with questions.

Sorry for my inactivity, but this is what I've been waiting for.

What do you think you are accomplishing, exactly? How do you expect the town to react to this?

Yvonne I would like answers to these two questions,

especially

the second one.

Now, Yvonne, you keep asking everyone else to provide evidence that ThAdmiral is town. This is probably fair. But, you are not providing further evidence that he is scum. You are still riding your original suspicions and asserting that he's not done anything pro-town since,

but you've not qualified this or proved it in any way

.

Is any of this looking familiar? It's on page 10 if you'd like to look through it.

On we go.

3 people doesn't seem useless no matter how 'insubstantial' they're argument may be.

You're right. Three people can pull a lot of weight. Weren't you the one looking for scumteams earlier?

[Side note: Dizzy is saying pretty much the exact same things Snix is in regards to Yvonne and the replacing business. At this point, I am about 95% positive that at least one of the two is scum. Before I forget, Dizzy, my question was about how you're so sure Ecto will be lynched.]

Now her replacement is doing better in some cases but he has a bad vibe.

Again, you're going to have to do better than that. "Gut" and "vibes" are, to me, cop-out reasons to suspect somebody.

If you think he's scum. If you're sure. Then put pressure on someone else vote-wise and keep building a case against Xtoxm and whoever you think is next scummiest.

If I think somebody is most likely scum, I am going to vote them, not somebody else. This post is just silly.

Working backwards now.

257 is you disagreeing with an opinion on lengthy posts and the fact that he wants to live. And a gut feeling. Not much to go on.

So, do you agree, then, that gut feelings make weak and flimsy arguments?

It's reasonable to backlash at the people who want you dead but you're predesesor had dug herself a deep hole and you aren't doing much to try and get yourself out of it. IMO

Here is a post in which you're laying the groundwork to keep suspecting Ecto. The problem:

there is no argument here

. You say he isn't doing much to get out of the hole Yvonne dug, but you don't qualify that in any way.

I was looking for something more than a vote. Actual reasons might be nice.

See, you like reasons too.

I think posts 250 and 252 adequately summarize my thoughts on you for the earlier portion of the game.

You seem to be desperately clinging to the Ecto/Yvonne-wagon, but you have nothing to back it up.

And no, as long as I think you're the scummiest person here, I won't be voting anyone else.

[neko2086]

Har har. I think it's mildly entertaining that Snix wanted me to be more aggressive toward someone, but when it's himself, he refuses to comment.

I wouldn't mind putting my vote back on xtoxm, though. Seriously, xtoxm, if you don't like low posting frequency and contribution, why don't you do something about it? Here, I'll give you a prompt: What do you think of Snix and Dizzy? Please respond in detail.

Btw, appeals to emotion are not helpful. At all.

[neko2086]

Har har. I was pretty sure yvonne was cop. I mean, really, it's the only viable explanation for her gameplay.

And I agree completely that Dizzy was obviously cop-hunting. I would be in favor of her lynch tomorrow.

Snix would be my 3rd choice, reasons already outlined.


I won't be voting until each of these people posts.

Just curious, Ecto, how sure are you that xtoxm isn't scum?

[neko2086]

Dizzy, why on earth would we lynch ecto? The obvious plan of action is to lynch thAdmiral, since an early fake-claim is such an unlikely gambit that our chances are higher believing the claim.

Then, and only then, if thAdmiral comes up town we lynch ecto.

Also, ecto already explained why he claimed now and not later--he will likely not be here later. If he hadn't claimed, thAdmiral would not be likely to be lynched, and ecto would have been the obvious nk target.

[neko2086]

Cmon you two, be nice.

Xtoxm, to be fair, that did look like coaching a little bit.


Dizzy, the only time I would ever remotely consider lynching the cop-claimer is if we were in lylo (or if there was a counter-claim). Neither is the case.

[neko2086]

I say we draw this out as long as possible as to force scum to keep chatting it up.

Xtoxm, what do we gain by lynching now?

[neko2086]

All you've said (that I can find, anyway) is that "Long days are not advantages to town."

That's not much of an argument, really. If we had lynched thAdmiral right away, we wouldn't have gotten to hear Dizzy give us all these appeals to emotion and a bizarre "let's lynch the un-counter-claimed cop-claimer on D1" theory. Now we have good direction for D2, whereas otherwise, she could have just started the day pretending to be on Ecto's side. Obviously, she can't do that anymore.

Your wanting the day to end seems like an attempt to keep as much attention off yourself as possible. And, if you do happen to be scum, it would make sense that you'd try to speed the day along to get less attention on Dizzy.

[neko2086]

OK, so explain the way you're looking at it so I can understand your point of view.

[neko2086]

good advice

vote: thAdmiral

It's becoming clear we're not going to get anything else accomplished today.

[neko2086]

With near's earlier vote, I do believe we have 7 votes and a lynch. Mod will need to confirm.

[neko2086]

The whole idea of the cop, which Yvonne is learning the hard way in this game, is that you don't act brashly act on discoveries. As cop, Yvonne should have created a case around thAdmiral that could look like any townie could have figured it out. As townies who figure out what the f Yvonne is trying to accomplish, we shouldn't just jump on the wagon for no reason either. That is the equivalent of a cop-claim, which ecto was forced to do.

I have to go, but I'll have more to say later.

To answer Snix, now we keep people talking until we know who the third scum is. In the meantime, we get Dizzy to talk as much as possible.

[neko2086]

That particular post could be an instance of scum-coaching/distancing. I agree though, looking for connections is an excellent start for today.

Btw, hello replacements! Thank you, and we look forward to hearing from you!

[neko2086]

James, I think many were thinking Dizzy would be the move for today. Are you opposed to this, or do you think Snix is more likely?

I myself think Snix would be a good D3 lynch (at the moment, but things can change).

[neko2086]

Yvonne's strategy was flawed, yes, in that she was only able to draw out one scum-buddy rather than two. In the best-case scenario, she would have kept incognito until the whole scumteam was investigated/made themselves apparent.

If you're not scum, though, you'll want to help us find the real scum.

[neko2086]

What townie ever argues for lynching the cop-claimer with a claimed guilty read on someone on D1?

Anyway, if I really need to pull a case together on a Dizzy-lynch, I'll do so, but for now I'd like to hear from our replacements. Speaking of replacements...

Shadow and perfect also good targets, i'd say.

LET'S LYNCH THEM! Excellent work. Dizzy will be on board with you on this one I think. Seriously though, perfect is replacing near, who was somewhat suspect yesterday, but shadow is replacing jester, who, I think, is one of the least suspect players.
At least with the Yvonne/Ecto wagon, there was scummy play by Yvonne that merited some pressure. I'd like you to tell me why Shadow and perfect are good targets.

[neko2086]

Near- Votes ThAdmiral for no apparent reason, possibly realized Yvonne was the Cop.

Neko- Didn't seem to notice Yvonne was the Cop, then claims at the end of the day that he was pretty sure she was, but his actions and votes don't reflect this.

You just proved that I did it right.


Replacements- who do you think is the most likely 3rd scum? (or, if by some chance you don't think Dizzy is scum, though she's all but claiming it now, please state why)

[neko2086]

nobody has much of or any read on the rest of the players.

There is plenty of info to support a Snix-lynch tomorrow. Xtoxm would be a possible alternative.

if I want to help the town when I'm lynched today and proven innocent, I need to be able to get the information to form further opinions, which will then be ignored anyway.

They will only be ignored if you are scum. I think we made it

very, very

clear that they will be taken into careful consideration if you do happen to be town. Thus, you basically just acknowledged being scum.

Dizzy, I can almost guarantee that you will be lynched today. It does not matter how many votes are on you at any particular time. That should not stop you from scum-hunting (if you're town). The fact that you are not scum-hunting only points further to the fact that you are indeed scum and that you are only posting for the sake of posting. This is a

21 page game

now. There is

plenty

of content to analyse and "form further opinions." You have absolutely no excuse.

[neko2086]

Right. Qualitative info would better serve us. We currently have no idea which posts you're looking at and what makes you think they are scummy or not.

Thank you for joining, though. I'm not sure how one replaces into a game unwillingly, but, hopefully you'll find it worth your while to participate.

[neko2086]

Snix, I have also been pushing for a dizzy lynch. Quite heavily, actually. Are my efforts

not

anti-town because I've not yet put a vote behind them?

vote: DizzyIzzy

How about now?

Dizzy is being attacked more than you because once Ecto claimed, you backed off whereas she kept attacking Ecto. She has also decided today not to do any scumhunting, which only makes her scummier. If you don't find this horribly horribly scummy, I'd like to know what exactly it would take. Would she actually have to claim scum at this point for you to vote for her?

Unfortunately for you, now that Dizzy is likely to turn up scum after being lynched, you are now in the prime D3 lynch position. I'm intrigued to hear your xtoxm case, though, assuming that you do indeed have an actual case against him. Again, if you're town, this will prove useful when you're lynched.

[neko2086]

Dizzy, if you do turn up town, I will obviously have to change my plan of action.

unvote

temporarily because I'll be gone this weekend and it would be nice for our other replacement to show up before anybody gets lynched. When perfect posts (and barring he doesn't claim scum or anything), I'll promptly put my vote back.

[neko2086]

I'm back.

Does perfect need to be prodded?

[neko2086]

It doesn't look like we're going to get any further today either.

vote: DizzyIzzy

Looking back, perfect said he'd be back Thurs.

Assuming we're right today, Snix is the correct lynch tomorrow.

[neko2086]

damn tags

vote: DizzyIzzy

[neko2086]

Calm down, this isn't a race. It would be incredibly helpful to hear from perfect before the day ends.

[neko2086]

Still want perfect to input.

Xtoxm, you will apparently never understand the value of letting days fully play out.

[neko2086]

I would suggest that such a discussion be held elsewhere. Actually, it probably has. At any rate, it won't help us here.

[neko2086]

For the record, despite my fervent disagreement w/ xtoxm's playstyle, I highly recommend considering a Snix-lynch tomorrow.

[neko2086]

Everything depends on whether Dizzy turns up town or scum. Everyone will do rereads, and Dizzy's alignment pending, a case will be created against you. When that happens, you can defend yourself at that point.

Also, I'm not saying you should be the only possibility tomorrow. I just don't want xtoxm to be the dominant subject of conversation tomorrow.

[neko2086]

I'm going to shit myself if Dizzy turns up town. I cannot believe a townie would ever ever advocate lynching an un-countered doc-claimer on d1. I mean really. Part of me is hoping she is just trying to give us a scare for the fun of it, but, it's not looking good.

I would still like to see the Snix case looked into. He defended thAdmiral and attacked yvonne/ecto before the claim, and avoided the Admiral wagon afterwards (he even voted ecto right up to the lynch). He stayed off the Dizzy wagon, sure, but that doesn't give him a clean slate.

perfect should also be looked into.

xtoxm should be looked into, but I'm starting to doubt his scumminess.

I still think cephrir is town.

[neko2086]

cop or doc makes no difference. You always always always trust the claim if you can afford to, which we could. It's

way

too stupid of a gambit for scum to fakeclaim so early just to get one townie lynched. Well, I hope you at least learned something in this game.

For everyone else, don't let dizzy make you feel guilty. Given her behavior D1 (and D2, frankly), D2 could not have ended any other way.

As long as we've got a super-long twilight, we may as well take advantage of it, cuz one of us isn't coming back. So...

James, why is twilight making you nauseous?

Snix, do you also think cephrir is scum?

Perfect, what do you think of Snix?

In the case that night actually comes before these get answered, I expect them to be answered tomorrow.

[neko2086]

No you're not. You're going to have to participate. Please outline why you've voted Snix.

In the meantime, Snix, what are your thoughts?

Jamesthephox, what are your thoughts?

perfect, you said you were going to reanalyze some things. Anything new come to your mind?

I myself still have some rereading to do. More later.

[neko2086]

I am an idiot. I’ve been writing/copying/pasting a case for about an hour now and I just lost it all. So I’m starting over now.

I was hoping to hear from xtoxm as well, but, oh well. In this, I will inevitably switch from third to second person and from present to past tense for no apparent reason. I apologize in advance, but it should still make sense.

Snix and Near

Near votes Snix on p4 for being too townie, basically. Not a good reason, but, Snix’s response is mostly WIFOM:

If I wanted to act like a townie wouldn't the better response be: "yeah, but lets keep him away from L-2 just in case."

If I were scum I'd know you weren't scum, right? So, wouldn't I dive in for the easy kill?

Snix and Yvonne

Your vote on Yvonne was weak to begin with. It doesn’t appear that you’re really sure why you’re voting her. In fact, you say to her, “If you aren't trying to get lynched then I don't know what you're doing,” which caused me to ask, ” if you think she's trying to get lynched, then why would you vote for her?” Your response: “Why not appease the lady? If she doesn't want to act town then we shouldn't treat her like town.” You knew something was off with her, and yet you’d rather lynch her than get her talking and figure out what’s going on.

When Yvonne was being inactive, I suggested she should be replaced and I outlined why, namely because of her inactivity. When I asked you why she should be lynched rather than replaced, you never answered.

Later, when she

was

active, she then became frustrated and asked to be replaced. You then tried to spin the situation to make it sound as if this was what I wanted, that it was my doing, when it

clearly

was neither.

While Yvonne was gone and we were waiting for a replacement, you kept your vote on her. Hell, even Dizzy unvoted until Ecto replaced in. When Ecto replaced in, you admitted you were voting him solely based on Yvonne’s play.

Also of note: Cephrir pointed out that you had hardly ever mentioned thAdmiral. You say there was nothing to comment on, and you continue to attack Yvonne.

This post of mine (358) is a good summary of other thoughts of mine: http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... &start=350
Snix refuses to respond to this post, which makes me think it’s all the more worthy taking another look at.

Snix and Ecto

Snix finally makes a case against Ecto. Below are his summarized points followed by my own comments:

-Ecto likes to dodge questions

As does Snix

-Makes connections where there are none

I wonder what the Neko-xtoxm-Yvonne scum trio would have to say about that…

-bread crumbs cop after telling dizzy to stop hunting cop.

Assisting in the cop-hunt by fishing for breadcrumbs

-seems to generally dislike sciggat for no stated reason.

Actually, he was just pressuring him, the way I saw it. Not sure how disliking somebody makes him scum anyway, though.

-bashes dizzy for being prideful of gender.

Again, not a scumtell

My summary: Snix’s case= a weak response to criticism for not having a case against Ecto

Ecto claims, and Snix keeps his vote on, to the very, very end, up to thAdmiral’s lynch. Again, even Dizzy ended up voting thAdmiral. (Note to self: jamesthephox, scigatt also avoid wagon)

Snix and Dizzy

Dizzy may have been town, but she was scummy. No doubt. She was cop-hunting, and she wanted to lynch the cop after he claimed. Her insistence, undying effort to get ecto lynched just screamed scummy, so the only logical next step would be a Dizzy-lynch. Why then, did you avoid the Dizzy-wagon? Did you know she was town? Only scum

know

all the alignments, and so for you to have known to stay off that wagon, the wagon on the scummiest person there, is incredibly suspect.

Snix and Cephrir

I've always thought cephrir is scum. I said that back on day one. It was just a feeling with nothing to go on so I focused on other people.

Right. You’ve said it yourself. You’ve got nothing to go on, and you never have

Now Snix, I have a couple favors to ask of you. First, respond to this post. Don’t complain about how long it is, because you asked for it. Literally. As far as how in-depth your response is, that’s up to you. I just want something.

Then, let me know what your thoughts are on scigatt, jamesthephox/peers, and perfect/near. I’m interested in knowing what you think about them.

I will likely vote Snix today, but I’ll be looking at others as well.

[neko2086]

Both Cephrir and Xtoxm wanted to kill her quickly without much discussion (which you agree is good for town)

False. I don't know where you got the idea that I support quicklynches.

After Ecto replaced you asked for a case against him, which I did give and which you quoted right below your statement saying I didn't.

I don't remember saying you never posted a case.

About Xtoxm. I don't like his play. I really don't. I don't feel that he is the scummiest here, however.

Snix, are you claiming scum or something? Or was that sarcastic?

[neko2086]

Sorry for the confusion.

I do think he's been scummy. I just think you're more scummy. I need to reread xtoxm, though, as there have been a couple instances that make me feel he probably isn't scum, and I want to make sure there's actually some substance in my thoughts on him.

[neko2086]

I have gotten this notion that Snix(if he is scum) may have beenpullling a gambit on D2.

Go into detail, please. I mean, you've got to have

something

to say.

[neko2086]

Bahhhh. I wanted to hear more from james.

I wouldn't say xtoxm is harmless, and I don't think his lynch would be a great loss, but I still think snix is more likely to be scum. I've posted an entire case stating why, and if somebody would like to address it to convince me otherwise, please do, because so far nobody has (other than snix, somewhat) and I haven't changed my mind or forgot about it.

As I said before, there are a few instances that make me feel that xtoxm is more pro-town:
Post 26- discourages cop-hunting discussion
Ecto claims- switches vote whereas Snix doesn’t
Most recent posts- is starting to give actual content… sometimes…

And that’s all I’ve got really. The rest is not impressive. I still prefer lynching Snix today, but if everyone insists, I won’t be opposed to an xtoxm-lynch. It would actually be beneficial to know his alignment.

[neko2086]

Eldritch, I'm also interested in knowing what you think of others, especially Snix.

[neko2086]

mod, can we get a votecount?

Thanks.

This game seems to be dying. We need to start narrowing down possibilities again I think. I personally prefer a Snix-lynch, as you all know. Nobody seems to be coming up with any reasons why not.

I could definitely see a snix-neko scum pair, but that's just a minor observation. Almost certainly false.

If it's almost certainly false, then why bring it up?

perfect doesn't seem to be contributing anything at all to this game, and I can't get a straight answer out of him about snix, but I'm not sure he's the scummiest here, and I'm not sure we would learn as much by lynching him.

I'm still waiting to hear from Eldritch, but I don't think holding back my vote is increasing productivity, so maybe placing it will.

vote: Snix

That should put Snix and xtoxm at even votes, if I counted correctly, but votecount will confirm.

[neko2086]

xtoxm, stop being difficult and start answering questions, plz n thx.

now that we're on deadline, now is the time to start presenting solid cases if anyone is considering pulling an alternate bandwagon.

Snix, what do you think of Eldritch/james?

[neko2086]

Still waiting on Eldritch to tell me what he thinks of Snix

[neko2086]

the way he said he didn't like the heavy discussion in twighlight, and said he wanted to find the role of dead guy.

So you like appeals to emotion? Because that's what it sounded like to me, essentially, though I don't know how others interpreted it. It's probably best ignored as a null-tell.

[neko2086]

I don't think a no-lynch would help us, really. I don't think it would necessarily hurt us though, since we have 8 people left and two scum. If we mislynch, we're in lylo until endgame either way, (lose 2 townies leaves 2 scum, 4 town; lose 3 townies leaves 2 scum 3 town). The second scenario may even be better as it eliminates room for error, but it should only be considered if pretty much everyone is a suspect. The scum will use the no-lynch to off one of the least-suspected townies, and since we wouldn't likely vote them anyway, we may as well keep them around for their input. That's my opinion anyway.

Leaning towards scum, but open toward the possibility of being innocent. I might elaborate on this especially if asked

Please do.

[neko2086]

Xtoxm-Cephrir: highly unlikely (unless they suck at distancing their votes)

Snix-Cephrir: would work with scigatt's theory that the scum are on opposite sides of the yvonne/dizzy biz (which I think is very possible). I don't think Cephrir is scum atm though.

xtoxm-perfect: possible. Not much interaction here.

I will officially state that I am positive Snix is Town from the re-reads I've been doing. Not exactly the most helpful or intelligent Town, but definitely Town.

What brought you to this conclusion?

[neko2086]

This is setting up a WIFOM discussion (well, maybe that's what the scum

want

you to think, etc.)

[neko2086]

Scigatt, you said you would elaborate on your thoughts on Snix if asked, which I did, so, whenever you're ready...

[neko2086]

How can Ceprhir be pushing a quick-lynch if he's the only one voting for you?

If anything, you appear to be the one pushing for a quick-lynch on xtoxm. And what's this about hypocrisy??

unvote; vote: Eldritch Lord

I'm starting to have my doubts on Snix. Not putting him out of my sight, but this is just getting ridiculous. You don't have time to answer anyone's questions, but you do have time to pop in and keep the focus on xtoxm. Come Friday, I hope you have some answers prepared.

[neko2086]

Some of his posts in D1 and 2 seem to be scummy, but his D3 is better. Leaning towards scum, but open toward the possibility of being innocent.

This is what you had said you would elaborate on. I immediately asked you to do so, then you started questioning why I'm still here. Now that you've come back to it, your take on snix seems to have changed quite a bit, especially concerning D3 activity.

So, I really am interested in more info and opinions on snix, but I'm

more

interested in your analysis and what it's based on

[neko2086]

So deadline is approaching, and apparently, we need to come to a consensus. I should have read that a bit more carefully...

Scigatt and perfect need to pick a side. I'll vote xtoxm if needed to get a lynch. I think no-lynch is not a good option right now, so let's not let it happen.

EL needs to stop dodging questions. Your last content post was good, though, and I think you have a good point on xtoxm. I think there are still some questions left unanswered, however.

[neko2086]

I will officially state that I am positive Snix is Town from the re-reads I've been doing. Not exactly the most helpful or intelligent Town, but definitely Town.

What brought you to this conclusion?

I was hoping EL would answer this, and while he briefly mentioned snix, he hasn't actually elaborated on this.


The signal:noise ratio is very low, and most of the noise is coming from EL and Cephrir.

Scigatt, you've been poking at me for the last few posts now, and I'm just wondering when you actually plan to present a case against me. I mean, are you

sure

you're going to be around tomorrow to do it? If everyone else has been giving me a free pass, they aren't as likely to do it, so, unless you're scum, wouldn't you want to throw it out there now?

[neko2086]

You want further clarification in regard to Snix's Towniness? Re-read Day 1.

Not an acceptable answer. I want to know why

you

feel Snix is "definitely town." You say something like that, it is up to

you

to back it up.

By the way, there seems to be a general consensus that Scigatt is town, and I don't know why. Does anyone else?

Scigatt was saying almost the exact same thing about me, so I don't know if this is meant to mock that, or what, considering you didn't really answer him as far as I remember.

The answer to your question would be no, though. I believe SL was suspicious about something Scigatt said to Dizzy that sounds somewhat as if he knew she was town.

[neko2086]

EL, re-read days 1-3 and see why snix is scum. See how unproductive that is? I presented an entire case against snix. If you'd like to convince me snix is town, please tell me what it is you saw day 1 that makes you think so, and why it weakens my case. I'll be glad to listen, as I've been almost

begging

somebody to comment on my case all day.

If you say "just re-read day 1 and find out for yourself," it appears that you don't really have any evidence. Rather, you'll wait for somebody else to come up with it. Do you not see how scummy this is?

[neko2086]

When you find it in Day 1, I guarantee you won't want it posted either, Neko.

We only had 1 power role, the cop, which is no longer here. I hope you're not trying to suggest that snix has a power role.

If you don't want scum to know what you're talking about, why are you telling everyone to reread D1 and look for it?

[neko2086]

We

won't

see, because you refuse to tell us what you're talking about. If you really think there is something that could clear snix, either tells us what it is or start defending him, because you

do

want the town to win don't you? Do you want snix to be an endgame liability?

D1 summary of snix
- lots of wifom
- wants to lynch yvonne
- draws up yvonne-neko-scigatt scumtrio
- refuses to answer neko's questions
- still wants to lynch ecto after cop claim

The only reasons I could see that would make you think snix is town amount to wifom. Now tell me this: what is it about pointing out whatever it is you see on D1 that will be advantageous to scum? The only power role we had is gone. They only investigated one person, who was scum, so there are no other cleared townies that would be advantageous for town to try to hide. The only informed minority left in this game is the scum, so if you see any evidence that he

knows

something or whatever, well, he's scum. So please, for my sanity and for the sake of the town, weigh out the payoffs and pitfalls of disclosing this "info" of yours, because frankly, if we can clear snix, that's at least one less person to suspect. If he gets nk'd, so be it. That would be better than having him in endgame when several people still suspect him.

...unless he's scum of course.

[neko2086]

Just how, EL, is snix cleared by you being town?

Also, please read my last post and comment on it, because

if you have solid evidence that snix is town, withholding it is going to hurt us later down the road if we do not see it.

.

[neko2086]

Interesting. I was actually about to ask you, Snix, do you have any idea what EL is talking about?

[neko2086]

EL, please respond.

There is obvioulsy no alternative to today, however.

unvote; vote: xtoxm

Somebody needs to hammer him before sunday.

[neko2086]

No, Neko. I have no Idea what he's talking about.

This makes me more inclined to believe snix is town

[neko2086]

I would assume scum-snix would have jumped on the opportunity to be "confirmed" town by somebody. It would also give him a buddying opportunity if EL were town.

If they're both scum, he could be doing this for distancing, but then I would wonder why EL would be doing such a poor job of it.

[neko2086]

Then he would say the same thing EL is saying

[neko2086]

If everyone has some suspicion, more or less, on every player here, then no-lynch is a good idea to eliminate a suspect. Otherwise, we're just letting the scum make the obvious kill, and then we lose that person's perspective. Right now, I feel that may still be the case, but maybe not. If it turns out that there is a pretty good case on each one of us here, then I support a no-lynch. I think I could pretty easily draft a case for everyone here, so on my part, this is sounding like a good idea.

Anyway, I very much like Scigatt's last comment. Shadow Lurker may have slipped there.

I will need to do more rereading. In the meantime, I'm anxious to hear shadow's elaboration of his last comment.

[neko2086]

If there is an obvious kill, a no-lynch is probably a bad idea.

[neko2086]

Yeah, the pros outweigh the cons in this situation.

VOTE: vote: no lynch[/b]

[neko2086]

Damn tags

vote: no lynch

[neko2086]

The pro is that we have one less suspect. We are in lylo either way, so we aren't putting ourselves at any disadvantage, rather we are increasing our odds. Again, this is only useful if everybody can be considered a suspect. I'd say that is looking like the case here.

[neko2086]

I'm a little bit nervous by those who want to stifle discussion completely. The only way we can know if NL is a good idea is if we know that everyone is a suspect. The only way we know if everyone is a suspect is if we can either discern that from re-reads or if we keep up the discussion. Are we going to keep the scum in the dark by keeping quiet until we NL? No. We're only keeping ourselves in the dark, imo, and we'll have wasted a day. That, and if we are going to NL, we're basically sacrificing a townie without having given them much final say.

That said, I just noticed this:

The rest of this post was actually relevant, so I'll not say it yet.

If you're gunning for a no lynch without discussion, how do you know you'll be around tomorrow to elaborate on this?

Anyway, I still feel uneasy about everyone else, and I know there are plenty of doubts about myself, so I feel a NL is still benefitial. I think the discussion should continue, though.

Snix, what do you think about a NL? You seem uneasy about it.

[neko2086]

unvote

as well, though I'll likely re-vote for a no lynch when we're ready.

[neko2086]

EL, the only benefit to scum I can think of is that if there is one townie that everyone else thinks is townie, the scum would get a nk without revealing much info. Even if SL thinks there is an obvious townie, we might not all agree, so No-lynch would still help some of us.

Other than that, there is no benefit to scum. They benefit quite a bit if there are 6 more or less equally viable lynch candidates rather than 5, so today really does need to end with a no-lynch.

I'm in the process of thoroughly rereading. I'll post my thoughts soon.

[neko2086]

Holy badvoting, batman.

If Neko turns up scum, I'm thinking Cephrir next.

If. "If" here does not connote a strong feeling that I am indeed scum. This sort of attitudes is fine D1, but in case you have not been paying attention, WE ARE IN LYLO! We do not get a second chance, yet have put me at L-2 because Snix says so? Because of, worst of all, a WIFOM-based vote???

Ceph has a great point as well--if you two are both town, the scum have this locked up! One of you had better unvote, and do it quickly!

Today

has

to end in No-lynch. This is a very scummy move by the both of you.

Almost done with rereads.

[neko2086]

You better have something good with the rereads or I'm right back on your case.

Meaning that you are going to be willing to put me back at L-2 at lylo when there are still 2 scum left? You haven't actually presented a case against me except for your WIFOM about me surviving this long. Considering the situation we're in, you appear to be willing to risk the entire game with very, very little to go on.

I've made it through rereads, and you, along with EL and his predecessors, continue to alarm me the most. Several instances make me feel that you could be partners, but a couple things make me hesitant. You and JTP were both voting Yvonne along with thadmiral and two dead townies, putting her at L-2 right about when she was asking to be replaced. I have a doubt that all 3 scum would be on one vote here, though it may be possible. Xtoxm’s lynch, you had the first vote again, and EL followed suit. Now, recently, I'm not sure that both the scum would vote so hastily, one right after the other. Then again, this is lylo, and it only takes one mislynch for a scum victory now.

Then there's the matter of EL's "clearing" you, which he has not yet explained. This does not make for good distancing, and I would imagine that he would have better sense if you were scumbuddies.

Still, your votes on me here are so ill-placed, and see so many instances of scumminess from both of you throughout this game that I am 95% positive that at least one of you is scum. I've looked for possible scumpairings, and every single one involves either Snix or EL (except of course for SL's possible distancing from perfect (now Armlx)). I’ll provide post numbers as evidence upon request.

To sum up yourself, Snix, you’ve been using WIFOM all day, from the very beginning, and you continue to do so as already stated.

EL has been largely unhelpful. Starting yesterday, he blatantly refused to answer questions to a ridiculous point, and he’s not doing much better today. EL, again, would you please care to explain what you were carrying on about yesterday? There are several questions left unanswered about how Snix is cleared by you, how scum benefit by revealing your findings, etc.

As far as the others:
Ceph is extremely troubling for me, mostly because I’ve found myself agreeing with just about everything he’s said this game. Scigatt wondered if I’m still here because my suspicions have been in the wrong place, and while I hate to entertain such WIFOM discussions, I would imagine this is the case is Ceph is scum.

SL—again, the case on perfect. It was interesting to see how passionate he was about a case that was based on so little. Also, there was his comment yesterday that pretty heavily suggested knowledge that he would survive the night.

Armlx—by himself, hasn’t really said anything alarming, but he’s replacing a couple rather shady characters- Near, who was attacked pretty steadily by marmalade and didn’t seem to care much about scumhunting, and perfect, who had more or less the same problem. Near, especially, seemed to take to posting only for the sake of posting, essentially becoming a lurker.


Again, from my perspective, a NL will be extremely helpful. Snix, I’ll wager you’ll be “back on my case” after this, but presenting a case before thinking about voting will be in everyone’s best interest.

[neko2086]

That way if there's someone who just pops out we go for a lynch if not we get our no lynch.

This, like other statements made by snix today, strikes me as a lack of concern that we are in lylo. Here, what he says I somewhat agree with (though a NL will still help ease somebody's doubts on someone else, so I still prefer it), but it's how he says it that makes me nervous.

[neko2086]

Again, it's not so much what you said, but how you said it. It's lylo, and you're saying that if someone "just pops out" then we can "go for a lynch." These statements come off as having a lack of concern about the gravity of the situation, like one might in D1. I may be reading into it way too much, but it just sounds off.

[neko2086]

EL, are you going to start answering questions, or would you like to be lynched for being incredibly uncooperative? I don't know what you think you're accomplishing, but you're not helping the town at all. Several of us by now are getting frustrated with you, so you can stop acting like getting you to talk is a mafia ploy to destroy the game. If you think I'm scum, fine, but please do something proactive, like create a case, or ask questions (and answer the ones directed at you!).

Oh, and deadline isn't too far away, so, if anybody wants to get anything out now before we NL, that'd be great. I'm planning to put the last vote on it (at least a day before deadline), but I want to wait until everyone's had their say.

[neko2086]

EL, if you're town, I hope you realize that playing the VI at lylo is not good play. D1, sure, go for it.

Anyway, if anyone has any last thoughts, now is the time to share them. I've already had my say.

[neko2086]

I want to hear from EL before I make a judgment call here. EL, this is your last chance to clarify some things, answer some questions, etc.

[neko2086]

I don't know about the others, I haven't seen it. Now, obviously a NL won't be happening since the scum don't feel like killing anyone. So we're at lylo, and we can't afford to mislynch, which means that it is clearly in your best interest, EL, to reveal whatever it is that you think clears snix. Seeing as how he (and you) is high up on many of our scumlists, this is now crucial information that needs to be revealed. The pros are by far outweighing the cons here.

[neko2086]

^^Massive agree^^

EL, you have not said all you can. If you have any interest in the town winning, please cooperate. If you are town, you are about to cause us to lose.

At least do this: tell us who you think is scum and why

[neko2086]

I think Neko is a Town leader-and if he's scum, the way Town goes about following him is dangerous--Cephrir's ^^^ and /agree lining up behind Neko would be fine if they could contribute anything of their own.

I don't think anybody has been "following" me. Cephrir, I'm starting to think, has been buddying up to me most of the game, and while this has concerned me, it doesn't ever seem to have concerned him, which it should.

Perfect is awfully quiet, stopping in only to announce his vote will stay on me over the weekend and that he will happily ignore any facts I may have presented while he was gone. It'd be a shame if scum hopped on and made this a quicklynch loss for Town while he was gone.

SL, you mean. Luckily (?), you've been uncooperative and haven't presented any facts, so his absence hasn't been any cause for concern.

When I come up Town /headdesks of "we should have listened" will fill my ears and I will experience great joy. You can blame it on me all you'd like, 'He wasn't clear even though his predecessor was trustworthy." "He should have cooperated." But in the end all it will mean nothing, and you should have read, re-read and listened.

Get the f*** over yourself. Seriously. This is endgame, so again, now is not the time to play VI. JTP was OK, and Peers was far less than trustworthy.

I've reread very thoroughly, and I don't see a damn thing that clears Snix. The only thing that can possibly clear a person in a game involves power roles, and in case you didn't notice, there are none left. I'll bet whatever evidence you've found is sketchy at best. But by all means, prove me wrong. You want us to find this so badly, so why won't you just tell us? Apparently we're all dense, so help us out.

While you're at it, review this wagon--draw your own conclusions but does it not seem a little too 'band-waggony' to be completely legit in a lylo situation? Maybe its just me.

Consider your own actions. Consider

your own

jumping onto a bandwagon (me) yesterday based on

faulty, crap

logic that could very easily, if you and Snix were town, ended in a town loss. Wouldn't you agree, that that implies very heavily that one of you two are scum???

here is my suggestion: Put everyone under scrutiny, let's make this day long--

I agree very much with this. Don't forget that we need you to take a part in this as well.

(but be careful so as not to set up a scumhammer)

This makes me lol (see yesterday)

A long re-read, a review, and some fresh opinions not involving me should be considered whether you're sure I'm scum or not.

As scummy as I think you are, I agree with this. I think you, if you're town, are just what the scum need for an easy victory.

I think some of us would agree that I'm in a role, with an attitude somewhat similar to Xtoxm's.

I quite doubt it. Xtoxm was a little better.

Neko was not very quick to question Xtoxm ever--

Blatant lie. See D1. And you're telling us to reread carefully. I campaigned quite heavily against xtoxm early on.

as it confirms both Snix and I Town]

How?

[neko2086]

My last post was in a rush, and I may have been drinking, and it may have been a bit harsh... so... sorry, but this is a bit frustrating. I've been in too many games that were ruined in lylo or endgame by a townie who just didn't give a shit. So, if you really are town, EL, please don't be 'that guy' k? I don't want to have to avoid playing in another game with you in the future.


Anywho, just tell us what you think clears snix so that we can get on with the game eh?

Armlx, what did you see that makes you think he's town?

Now that I've put it out there, what do others think about Ceph buddying up to me? Scigatt said earlier that I may have been kept around because my suspicions have been in the wrong place, and while I don't normally entertain wifom arguments like that, I've been concerned for awhile now that Ceph may have been using me to his advantage. Maybe I'm reading into things too much, but I'd like some feedback.

[neko2086]

When me and EL both voted Neko scum didn't jump on and quick hammer. Not one. Which means 1 of 2 things: 1 Neko is scum or 2 both me and EL are scum. Seeing as how I'm 89% sure EL is town and I know I'm town that really only leaves one option.

If the two scum weren't on the wagon, they would have to have both known that they were online and readily available, otherwise they would be too obvious. Here's the scenario:

Snix- WIFOM! vote: neko
EL- Snix is town! vote: neko
Scum A- vote for no apparent reason! vote: neko
...
...
...
Town A- wft are you doing???
Scum A- um... I don't know... unvote

So no, snix, the 2 scum didn't pull off a quicklynch because luckily you had the sense to pull your vote off before they had a chance, if indeed the 2 scum are among Ceph, SL, and armlx.


Of course, the other option is that EL is scum and wasn't concerned about placing a second vote on me because of a simple oversight on numbers. There isn't a much better explanation for his vote as of yet, but again, I'm willing to have him prove me wrong.


I don't know if NL will help us, as the scum seem to have decided not to elminate anybody.

[neko2086]

There was plenty of logic in that post, I just didn't turn on my 'nice' filter like I usually do. I'm growing impatient, and in case you haven't noticed, I'm not the only one. In fact, I think snix is the only one who isn't. It seems like you may be starting to be more cooperative, however, so thank you. Still, though, I'd like you to share everything you've got about snix. Again, if you really do have something there, it's crucial information. Saying "snix is town" over and over doesn't make it true or more convincing.

One of the scum may indeed be on your wagon right now. Or you may be scum. Or both--if you're scum, you are so getting bussed today.

Now, just to take this into consideration, we can happily eliminate 3 scumpair possibilities- Snix/Ceph, Ceph/neko, neko/snix. Maybe this doesn't help anyone else, but I had considered the possibility of a snix/ceph scumpair earlier, but as EL pointed out, the game would've been over by now if 2 of the 3 of us were scum.

EL, what do you think of Ceph?

[neko2086]

Ceph, out of curiosity, what likelihood would you give snix being town? more than 80%?

[neko2086]

yeah. we may as well force the scum to give somebody up. And let's face it, we're all a target of somebody, so it'll still be helpful.

The fact that snix and EL are so gung-ho about this, though, only reaffirms my feeling that one of the two is certainly scum. For what it's worth, snix was way less excited about NL last time around.

Maybe we're just wasting our time, but, I'll

vote: no lynch

[neko2086]

OK, so EL knew snix was town, either because there is something revealing early on in the game, or because he's scum. So EL, if you don't want us to believe the latter, you'd better tell us what made you think snix is town, if there really was anything in the first place. He's dead now, so no excuses.

[neko2086]

I'm having a hard time believing EL is town, but I want to hear his explanation.

Ceph, wtf? Armlx, you might want to unvote just in case... Ceph just lingering around for no apparent reason is making me nervous.

[neko2086]

Or, a "I'm waiting for my partner to show up so that we can finish this thing" post.

I don't know how likely that is, as it requires some coordination and is risky anyway, but it just makes me a little nervous.

[neko2086]

So basically, it really does boil down to snix's statement- 'if EL were scum, I'd be dead by now'? I mean, I understand everything you're saying and I believe all the premises-- you know snix, you've played in a game together where this has happened before, etc. The problem I have is the assumptions that ensue. Basically, snix put you in prime position to manipulate him. At some point he believes you're town, and whether he realizes it or not (remember that he had no idea what you were talking about either), he drops some sort of hint to you that he's town again.

Now, in your position,

regardless of whether you're town or scum

, you realize that you have an ally. If you're town, great, you can focus elsewhere. If you're scum, even better, as you have somebody that will defend you and follow your lead. So why lead a bandwagon on him when you can just as well use him to your advantage? Now obviously, the next question would be, why nk him? I have to admit, this makes me feel slightly more inclined to say you could be town, but to be realistic about everything, snix would be more useful to you dead than alive right now, considering not many of us considered him very pro-town.

If you were lynched to day and we lost, I have to say I wouldn't be extremely disappointed considering your behavior in this game, especially over the last couple of days. Even if you believed strongly that snix was town, following his awful wifom logic to put me at L-2 at lylo with 2 scum left was a plain bad move, a lazy oversight at best. Also note that you are chastizing armlx for doing essentially the same thing.

What I

do

find more pro-town about you right now, is that you really did have an explanation. I was nearly convinced that you were making it up, and I was anxious to see if your explanation would appear to have been crafted after knowing that you'd have to explain it at some point. I very much expected to see maybe one quote and a far-fetched reason why that 'cleared' him and somehow you. Still, it's not entirely convincing in itself, but you even breadcrumbed it a little, so I do feel you have indeed had this explanation early on.

I don't know what to do now, so clearly, I need to reread more openly. I have to look into Ceph more. Just because he posted and didn't vote does not clear him at all... I don't see how he thinks that works. I've already mentioned earlier that the scum, if they want a quicklynch at this point, have to know that they're both around, so for them to just lay down a L-1 vote out of nowhere would be way too obvious. So of course you didn't vote, Ceph. I'm having trouble seeing what was pro-town about that post. Very tempted to vote you.

[neko2086]

Armlx, how has Ceph convinced you he's town? It had better be good, considering it could cost us the game if you're wrong.

[neko2086]

Well, if EL is town and Ceph is scum, it's over. I'm still finding it difficult to believe EL could be town though. Not opposed to dropping the hammer, but it'd be nice to hear from Ceph and EL first.

[neko2086]

If we assume EL is scum, the same is true for everyone else...

If EL is town, it doesn't really matter anymore.

So, what's your point?

[neko2086]

You make me lol armlx. Can you sign up as a replacement for Lovers Multiball so that we can be lovers?


This game makes me want to cry. I'm glad it's over.


Ceph, I feel so used . Gut said that's what was going on, but I couldn't back it up with much. You played pretty well. I hope we're on the same side in Lovers.

[neko2086]

Oh, and I don't regret a single mislynch. Least of all the two(!) that ended in self-hammers.

EL, if you had explained yourself when you were asked to, things may have been different. You just gave too little

way

too late. But, whatever.

[neko2086]

Lol, you were trying to get me lynched. But whatever. I was wrong, too, yes. I sorta wish I could have lynched you though