Mini 594 - Satin Doll Showdown - {GAME OVER}

[PokerFace]

All /in

[PokerFace]

Vote: Mizzy

Congrats on the child, hope that is going well.

PokerFace: "I need to play with [Ether] or Mizzy more often."
Nightson: "I'd be more then happy to play with Ether and Mizzy. At the same time."

I bet Nightson is jealous right now.

@Mod: OGML,

Should someone end up needing replaced you should try and get Nightson and/or farside in here considering the queue.

[PokerFace]

Cool beans OGML

I don't see what Ether was getting at. O.o

Yay I was confused a bit too. I barely manage to see any validity in Ether's comments about Glork.

I'll comment more on other peoples votes and stuff late wednesday or thursday if i am not too busy.

[PokerFace]

Unvote

Cool beans OGML

I don't see what Ether was getting at. O.o

Yay I was confused a bit too. I barely manage to see any validity in Ether's comments about Glork. ...

I said this earlier because I got a wierd vibe from the earlier exchange that Glork knew Ether's alignment, but now I think he was more so jesting around with the hot dancer statement.

In general alot of the votes made during this game's random vote stage weren't entirly random. And they weren't really made because the person getting voted was seriously scummy. But Ether's vote was more serious than the others so I understand why hascow considered them differently. Nothing really pinging my scumdar at the moment.


Something else I want to bring up, Glork recently said this

In other news:
Something about Patrick seems very slightly off, but I can't place my finger on what that is. Let it suffice to say the vote will stand, and I'll keep an eye on him. One reason might be the fact that he hasn't mentioned scot even once, and just asked for content from SSK and PokerFace.

either I am reading that wrong or something, because it seems to imply that his vote on Patrick will stand when Glork just recently...

Early Protown Indicators: Erg0, Ether, Glork, Mizzy

Unvote, Vote: PokerFace

randomly jumped onto me. I don't really see anything scummy from Patrick, myself atm.

[PokerFace]

Patrick feels natural to me.

SSK feels sinister. Also, he needs a prod.

I said this earlier because I got a wierd vibe from the earlier exchange that Glork knew Ether's alignment,

Hold it. You didn't think

that

was worth mentioning earlier?

I didn't bring it up earlier because I have been rather busy and I wanted to take a second look at Glork's comments.

Cool beans OGML

I don't see what Ether was getting at. O.o

Yay I was confused a bit too. I barely manage to see any validity in Ether's comments about Glork.

I'll comment more on other peoples votes and stuff late wednesday or thursday if i am not too busy.

I admit that it would have been more significant to mention the vibe here, but I rather dislike trusting a vibe or a gut instinct. I prefer to vote and trust more solid cases. I believe I intially got the vibe from this statement:

My vote wasn't random.

Just saying.

Arbitrary, random... same thing.


You're just jealous of my incredible hotness.

Because he suggested that you could be jealous I got the impression he knew a reason why you would be jealous. Knowing a reason why you would be jealous would imply he knew something about you; like alignment for example. But in reading over it again I believe recieveing that vibe was something to this equivalent:

I do "what you were getting at," but I think you're confusing some harmless pre-game banter for fishing and subsequently making a DD out of an A.

I was looking to far into his joking around.

[PokerFace]

Ok I finally got some time to focus on this game. I'll give you all a rundown of how I view some of the players so far. I haven't played often with most of you so I may be checking your wiki's or asking you for some links to some of your 'completed' games so I can add some good meta info to my opinion of you. This rule should go without saying, but just in case, if i ask you for a game link do NOT post a link to a game that is currently going on, only post a link to a 'completed' game. And when I say completed I mean the game is over. You being dead and the game still going on does not count, don't post any game links with that. I will have a pretty open weekend coming up so this will be a good time for me to get some meta reads.

Player list top to bottom
1. hasdfgas
Has been participating so far. Has not done anything scummy that I have seen. He looked at the early votes of others reasonably as I mentioned earlier. I have played with him once on scumchat and I have been meaning to play with him on irc. I have glanced at a few games where he has been town, but not glanced at many games where he has been scum. Aside from "Weather Mafia" what other games have you been scum in?

2. PokerFace
Hey, that's me. I need to give this game more focus and content.

3. Mizzy
I have actually played with her before in Newbie Game 520. I believe that was her first newbie game. She did really well in that game and posted quite a bit. We had a 20+ page day 1. In that game she ocassionaly made some joke coments and kept the game entertaining while being deeply involved in finding the scum. She doesn't seem to be doing to much of that here and so some people calling her protown feels out of place. That was the only game I played with her so i think I will have to check out a few of her other completed games to see how consistant this read is on her. Mizzy, if there are any completed games you have where you were scum, I would apreciate a link to it.

Quick update on my thoughts: After looking back over the few posts Ether has made so far, I get a pro-town read of her. She's acting (so far) like I would expect an Ethertown to act. Granted, we're only on page 4. But I don't think that her stretching on Glork makes her scummy, yet.

This post was criticized by some other players earlier. The qualifiers she gives seem to portray her trying a bit too careful as she states her oppinon on Ether up to that point. I look forward to the oppinions post she has just promised.

4. Patrick
He has stated some oppinions on other players throughout this game. One thing i have noticed so far is that he appears to have different scumhunting tactics. My last post was meant as an answer to Ether's question, but he saw it and the post before it as being fairly over defensive and possessing undermining comments. this is why I say he has different scumhunting tactics because i don't like the idea of voting people because they are over defensive. It isn't a valid scum tell in my book. Since he is participating often and actually taking time to look at the posts of others (scumhunt) I am getting a town read on him. He has made it a point to sometimes mention the names of players when they need to post more. What is your oppinion of MafiaSSK up to this point?

5. Ether
Her style of play so far appears to be poke at some detail and see where it leads to. I going to need to see if this is how she usually finds scum or messes with the town. Your wiki lacks links to completed games. Could you direct me to a few, some where you were scum and some where you were town?

6. Incognito
I am yet to play with this fellow. I'm going to look back at his case on Glork and see why he dropped it so quickly and moved on to another player. I'll see if i can get some time to look at this game MafiaSSK was talking about.

7. scotmany12
I have only played with him a few times on scum chat. The last game we played he brutalized me and caught me very well. At the moment he seems to be voting Tarhalindur for a few reasons. He disagrees with Tar's oppinion of Erg0 and Ether, and believes Roland did pretty much the same thing as Erg0. His vote looks to be more based on a disagreement then the theory Tarhalidur is scum.

8. MafiaSSK
Needs to post more.

Okay then quick response to everything.
I find Ergo,Mizzy,Glork,Patrick to be protown. The rest I'm curious about especially Incognito.

do you have any sort of reasoning for this?

I re-read the thread and got those vibes from the protown people.

And I would apreciate it if he would give more details as to why he feels the way he does about those players. Can you quote specific comments made by those players that lead you to believe they are town? I'd like to see more of your logic. Also it feels kinda off that he calls someone he is currently voting to be pro-town.

9. Tarhalindur
In the completed game "Doctor Who Mafia2" in theme park he latched on early to a player because he believed that player was making the reverse version of "The "Well, That Sucks" Tell". The reverse version is a player said he was glad to see the Cult Recruiter and one mafiso die on night0. Tarhalindur pushed hard on that players lynch for that tell and he appears to be pushing hard on Erg0 for making the IIoA tell. So this looks like standard Tarhalindur to me. I read through the IIoA tell in Tar's wiki, but there is one thing I'd still like to see. Tarhalindur, would you post a link to a completed game were a mafiso exhibited the IIoA tell. I understand how the tell works and all, but I'd like to see an actual example where it validly came up, because at the moment I am not really seeing it in Erg0's comments.

10. Erg0
When I first came to this site I read alot of his early games because I was a newbie then and he plays alot of newbie games. He was town in all the newbie games I read. He was also town with me in "Doctor Who Mafia 2" and I am getting a simular aura from him there in this game. To be certain of this meta read I am going to take a deep look at the "Pirates vs Ninja's in theme park. That game was completed earlier this year and has him being scum (ninja). I think Erg0 is town at the moment since he has been giving some valid opinions so far.

11. Roland
He asked for replacement because he doesn't have time for the game. He was not here too long or really gave enough content for me to get any read on him so I'll have to wait and see what his replacement does.

12. Glork
I mentioned somethings about him earlier and here is some more stuff. So far he has been analizing the words people have been using in their posts. I'm going to need to update my vocabularly since i have forgotten what rudimentary and hebetudinous mean. I've only ever used the phrase "to be honest" to admit a mistake or something I overlooked.

I see people use "tbh" with reasonable frequency (in fact, I probably use it more often than most), but it's usually tagged with a sentence, claim, or statement of opinion which goes against the norm or might be unexpected. It feels more out of place here, because I think I may be the only one harping on Patrick right now.

Incognito used it in a post that was soon after Glork's FOS of Patrick so I see Incog's statement as more of a relevant comment to topic that has just come forward.

Like I said before i'll be doing some meta-ing over the weekend so I'll see you guys again then.

[PokerFace]

I think you're somewhat missing the point of why I voted you. I don't mind people defending themselves, and I think "being defensive" is usually a sketchy tell at best. I voted you for seemingly only feigning contribution. When I said "purely defensive", I didn't mean that you were being overdefensive, I meant that you didn't seem to move the game forward in anyway or give an opinion as to anyone's alignmen

Ah ok I guess I did miss that point.

(I also found it odd that you seemingly had no reaction to Ether's unexplained vote, particularly when it was the

second one of it's kind

placed on you, but am not quite sure what it means yet). I haven't in depth metagamed you, but what I have seen didn't make me think of you as a lurker/active lurker.

I assumed Either's vote was meant to apply pressure to me so that I would answer her question or perhaps participate more. The last comment she made before her vote was directed at me (see post 108).

I made post 106 on Fri May 09, 2008 6:27 pm (USA Eastern Daylight Savings Time). Ether voted me in post 121 on Mon May 12, 2008 7:50 pm (USA Eastern Daylight Savings Time). I had just gone over the 72 hour timer so I kinda figured that was why she voted me. As far as why she is still voting me I'm not sure. She is welcome to correct me if I have assumed the wrong reason and explain any other reasons she is still keeping her vote if she wants.

Also "second one of it's kind"? I kinda thought Glork and hasdfgas voted me randomly and just haven't felt the need to move their votes yet. I didn't consider Ether's vote to be the second of any kind because I didn't see it as random like Glork's and Cow's.

I'll comment more on Cow's post 164 later since I need to go to bed. I have to work Saturday Morning

[PokerFace]

Just checking in to let you know I finished up reading through those games late yesterday. My eyes hurt so bad I wanted to gouge them out with a spoon. I'll be posting later tonight when I get off work. I'll comment on what has been going on recently and if there is any relevant meta info involved, I'll mention that aswell.

[PokerFace]

Sorry I did not post last night. I fell asleep in my computer chair and just barely woke up with enough time to go to work today.

MafiaSSK who do you suspect?

Okay then quick response to everything.
I find Ergo,Mizzy,Glork,Patrick to be protown. The rest I'm curious about especially Incognito.

If you find Erg0 town for some unknown reason I'd like to know why you are still voting him, because at the moment I believe this statement is very much true about you.

...and I too would like some elaboration on his townlist, since

it's possible [MafiaSSK] just saw Glork's comment on roland and tried to look protown by labelling a third of the game as protown.

Reasonably happy with his comment on Incognito, who does seem more passive than I'm used to seeing from him. Not particularly scummy to me.

_________________

I am not a fan of the hasdgfas wagon atm. I understand some of his reasons since there are differences between those players, though It would be good to see hasdfgas respond to Ether's post 189.

Mizzy: except for her post #10 with all the qualifiers, she seems to be acting normally for her, so I'm not thinking she's scum at the moment.

I kinda thought hasdgfas was trying to convey his general view of Mizzy's play in the context of how hadfgas views Mizzy's usual play, but we'll see what hasdgfas says. I already mentioned that Mizzy's play does not feel like what I'm used to.

I also don't quite understand the point Erg0 is getting at.

I'm assuming (hoping) that we'll see a bit more from Poker once he's got this meta thing sorted out. I don't recall seeing him use meta as his sole source of information anywhere else. Yes, I'm meta-ing his meta-ing.

Glork does seem very disconnected from proceedings so far. I was kind of hoping for a couple more votes to follow mine, but that doesn't look like happening at this point.

I'm not a big fan of Tar's play so far, he looks a lot like his SK self from Mini 545.

I think I could see hasdgfas and MafiaSSK as buddies, based on the timing of hasdgfas' vote. Either that or hasdgfas is looking for a viable alternative wagon now that he's coming under pressure. I'm generally opposed to serious wagons on players like SSK at the start of the game, unless they have a history of only lurking as scum. I also feel like hasdgfas would have gone after Glork a little harder if he were town.

A week until deadline, time to get things moving methinks.

Unvote, Vote: hasdgfas

If you think hasdgfas is scum with MafiaSSK then you seem to be implying that you suspect MafiaSSK. Aside from his general lurking and low content posting, are there other reasons you suspect him? If part of your case on cow is some association with MafiaSSK then wouldn't it make sence to pursue any suspicions you have on MafiaSSK aswell? It more so appears like you are giving up on the Glork wagon and trying to find a viable alternative.

With the extra time OGML just gave us I don't think it is necessary to hurry a lynch on hasdfgas.

[PokerFace]

Yay Hi all. Sorry my activity as of late has been crap. I am at work right now and I shall post later today. I actually have monday off so I should be able to spend some more time over this weekend for this game. I got to do something before deadline.

[PokerFace]

Well, my problem with him is that he seems to only be meta-ing, and I really don't like that. I use meta as some of my arguments, but not as everything I do for the whole game.

We really have no way of knowing the reason PokerFace has decided to ask for referential games because he hasn't provided us with his findings from those games yet. It seems a bit early to say that PF is using meta "for the whole game" when this game isn't very long yet. I am very curious to see what PF has deduced from his research.

Well I suppose I probably should tell you what my research yielded. I'll post some of the meta info that is relevant to this game here and then I'll post some of my own comments on what has been happening later on, probably tomorrow. The main reason I felt I should do this research is because some players have mentioned people giving town vibes or acting as they normally are. Some people have not gone into great detail why they think as they do so I felt reading some games would perhaps be the best way for me to see their point.

-hascow:

In Pine Barrens hascow posted quite bit. Only a few times did he make posts mentioning giving big cases later on. He really only got prodded once so I overall wouldn't say he tends to lurk as scum. Hascow was never voted outside of the random stage in that game so I couldn't say if he lurks under pressure or not. He was voted once outside the random stage in Weather Mafia and it was for a pretty BS reason. Blackberry made some bogus claims in that game. His vote for hascow was pretty much a joke. Also in Weather Mafia I got the impression that hascow appeared to be commenting from the sidlines alot. Basically watching the town destroy itself. Not really commanding any of the wagons. I can't say I have noticed any of this behavior here.

-Mizzy:

I have not yet dove deep into her case on Patrick. I will be reading it soon and comenting on it, I promise you. The activity level she had been displaying before giving this case, did not look like the Mizzy I remembered from Newbie Game 520. In her other games as town she displayed alot of good pro-town content and scum hunting. With the little content she had been givinging up to that point i was begining to wonder if this game could possibly be her first game as scum. That could explain why her play looked unfamilar. When I read her case on Patrick I'll be seeing if it holds water is actual scumhunting.

-Ether:

I didn't find anything that looked drastically different from her play in the other games. She has been scumhunting and asking questions throughout this game.

-Erg0:

Him as well, I didn't find anything that looked drastically different from his play in the other games. Nothing that would confirm him as being definate scum.

-Tarhalindur:

I read through "Stargate SG-1" to see an example of the IIoA tell. The wagon on Theopor_COD (which started at page 59) was not simply composed of that tell. Sure Theopor_COD stated alot of facts and info with no personal analysis, but there was some evidence linking Theopor_COD to a mafioso's that had died earlier Rosso Carne. The wagon on Theopor_COD got huge when he made a bad fake claim. Tar has stopped going after Erg0 at the moment to put some pressure on Elmo which is a little off considering he is not doing too much either.

-Incognito & MafiaSSK:

I took a look at mini game 539. I can't say I noticed anything that makes incognito seem more passive here. As far as MafiaSSK goes, he was active in 539's random voting phase when some pressure was put on him. He didn't really do much after that. He pretty much lurked alot while giving little content. He didn't really give alot analysis or scumhunting until much later in the game. In that game there was reason for him to get replaced since he did not post between Jan 3rd and Jan 29th. He actually asked for replacement on January Second for some FireFox issue. The mod just never really got around to replacing him then since he eventually ended up getting nightkilled there.

Throughout this game MafiaSSK has been lurking quite a bit while posting very little content, aswell. I generally consider such actions as scummy. Even though he's kinda done it before, I can't say I want to give him a pass for now. One thing I did seem to notice as a difference is that in 539 he did vote people he thought were scummy in that game. He didn't go too deeply into why he believed Justin PlayFair and Natude to be scummy early on but he still voted for people he thought was scum. Here he didn't vote during the random stage at first. He had to be prompted for the vote and it was kinda retalitory. He has been sitting on that vote through this game and yet early he said he consider Erg0 town. So I basically think what I wrote about in my 8th post is still relevant.

MafiaSSK who do you suspect?

Okay then quick response to everything.
I find Ergo,Mizzy,Glork,Patrick to be protown. The rest I'm curious about especially Incognito.

If you find Erg0 town for some unknown reason I'd like to know why you are still voting him, because at the moment I believe this statement is very much true about you.

...and I too would like some elaboration on his townlist, since

it's possible [MafiaSSK] just saw Glork's comment on roland and tried to look protown by labelling a third of the game as protown.

Reasonably happy with his comment on Incognito, who does seem more passive than I'm used to seeing from him. Not particularly scummy to me.

At this moment I am leaning towards voting MafiaSSK. I will not do that yet because as things stand I have only read deeply into posts upto post#210. I skimmed some of the posts after that while I was at work early saturday, but did not really look at stuff like Mizzy's case on Patrick. I don't think I should cast a formal vote until after I am more caught up. I'll be catching up on some of that stuff Sunday and Monday. I'll try and keep a daily level of activity up as we approach deadline. Having this day end without a vote or a lynch is not good. I'll

FOS: MafiaSSK

for now.

[PokerFace]

So your basing my meta on only 539? Why not try and look at the ones where I was scum such as in SSBB Smalltown Mafia (I forgot the #.) Also you could find a better, variation of where I was more scummish but yet still a townie in Mini 562. Also the reason why I did label a third of the game protown is the fact that they seem like it. Its hard to label which sentences told me that they were town.

Huh. I guess I missed those games when I was looking for what you were in. I read the title for the SSBB and that game is still going on so no talky about it wether your dead or not. I'll take a peak at mini 562 later. I mentioned why I decided to do some metaing in this game earlier.

I probably should have also mentioned earlier that this is actually the first game I've really dwelled greatly on meta-gaming at all in. I don't know if I'll use it so extensivly in my next game mainly because of one aspect of it. I don't like the idea of following: "He is scummy in all games regardless of alignment so let's not lynch him even though he is scummy and could be scum here."

Poker:

Maybe you missed me saying so, but the reason my participation level is down is because of my extremely limited time to play. I have never had limited time to play before that has gone on for so long, and my participation is down this low in ALL of my current games, not just this one.

No I didn't miss it. Ether made a post earier (over all #189 her's #14) And I was kinda getting the same impression she was implying there. I have not looked at your current games so I guess I'll just have take your word for it. I hope everything works well with your kid's health. I am going to get around to reading your case on Patrick and your recall of the game. I'll be comenting on that shortly.

After that I'll read what elmo has been saying since I have not truly glanced at posts 246 and 247 yet. Patrick is right I have not been really going after Elmo. I went after MafiaSSK not just for is content but also for not really saying who he thinks is scum. MafiaSSK has been around all game while Elmo has not. Elmo has been here for over a week so he should indeed be getting in some posts esspecially as deadline nears. I'll comment more on what hascow has just said, figure out where I stand on Elmo, and where my vote should be going in the future.

[PokerFace]

Ok I read through Mizzy's case on Patrick. I think I understand what she's getting at since Patrick has been asking alot of questions, but I don't really agree with her since Patrick has giving some of his own opinion at times. When he voted me earlier he explained that it was because he saw some of my logic as undermining itself. Nobody else said that so it wasn't really a copying of oppinions.

Posts 228, 229, 231 bring up some valid points. Earlier in this Game Glork FOSed Patrick without giving great reason why. Glork has not really touched further upon this and jumped on cows wagon. Glork, what is your current view of Patrick? How do you view him with the case Mizzy has mentioned and do you still feel hasdfgas is still a good lynch and why?

_________________

No. When you're town, you try to play similarly to previous times you've been town, so it's understandable to find someone town for acting similarly to previous times they've been town.

I don't exactly agree with this. When I am town I just be myself. I don't try to act the same as I did before. As town one should be genuine and not need to act simular. Needing to act simular is something a mafioso would need to do to stay hidden.

_________________

I'll be commenting on Elmo later today. Atm I also have a rules clarification question for OGML

*Mod-OGML*

7. A lynch suffers the requirement of a simple majority. A deadline lynch requires half of the normal lynch requirement. If two players are tied at deadline the player who received the final vote first will be lynched.

I realize that this kinda sounds like a stupid question but I'll ask it anyway. We got 12 people and at deadline half the majority lynches. So does that mean 12/2 = 7, 7/2 = 3.5 so its 4 votes for a lynch at deadline?

If hasdgfas is going to be lynched at deadline he may want to claim early so that there is time to direct a lynch elsewhere.

[PokerFace]

I'll clarify myself before anyone jumps to a bad conclusion. I am not saying I am going to vote hasdgfas. ATM I'm a little undecided on who I'm voting. Cow said he doesn't like people labeling alot of peaople as town and I can see some logic behind that. If 4 is going to cause a lynch at deadline he may want to claim because if now was the deadline that would be it.

[PokerFace]

snarthed!

[PokerFace]

Ok I read through day 1 of mini 562, MafiaSSK. My only response to that thing is "WTF!" I think The people in that game took alot of what you said way out of context. You didn't really come off as scummy to me there. The other players came off as super over critical to me there. I do note that you did indeed not really vote who you believed to be scum or voice an opinion on who you thought was scum in 562. I would still prefer you made some firm stance as deadline approaches. I'd like you to respond to Cow and ether's recent coments.

I read through elmo's post #246. And I have to say I reasonably agree with tarhalidur's assessment of it. A bunch of his stuff has already been said with not great own analysis. I also don't entirely get why he wants to vote hasdcow. Some of his opinions come off as reaching because most of the post numbers he mentions were really small posts. I don't see how elmo could get some of those opinions from posts like that.

Readin' through. Hmm. I seriously doubt Glork would try to fish like that with this crowd. I don't see why 'accusing just to accuse' in the random stage is a scumtell; might be unwise, but more than a few people will jump on literally anything to get out of random. I do figure Incog has a point, inthat his vote is probably actually weaker than Ether's,

but hasd doesn't jump on it anything like the same way. I'm also not sure how hasd can say 'we do need a start to the game, and this is a good one' and then say Ether was 'trying too hard'.

Can you try too hard to get the game off to a good start? @_@. I somewhat agree with Erg0 that Glork's stance here appears kinda.. standoffish? Passive? Post 67 even seems a lil' passive-aggressive, hum. Albeit I agree with the conclusion (obv, some players will wagon anything with a pulse - I believe that's consistent with Ether) Glork's comment doesn't appear to actually do anything other than prompt further comment from both sides. Mizzy appears to be dancing (heh) around the exchange. I don't agree with Tarhalindur's comment on Erg0, 68 seemed to take stances on people in a reasonable manner, although I see what he's getting at with Ether.

I'm mainly just sitting back with some popcorn and watching the whole Ether <--> Glork thing going on. Neither of one of them are acting out of character, I think, so as of yet, I have no opinions on who is scummy.

Um, hi?

I don't understand Incognito's vote in 85. I can see he'd be curious, but the natural thing to do is simply ask "Hey, Glork, why'd you miss me out?" - I really can't see any reason for a vote, there. IIRC, Mizzy has a tendency to assert that we can't know much early on - I disagree, but I don't think her qualifiers are significant here. I kinda agree with scotmany wrt Tar, hm. Oh, noes, we're not having this 'to be honest' debate, are we?

I don't like Hasd's 131, that looks very like 'hey, look, I'm doing stuff! Only not!' hrhrm.

It seems to me like Tar puts too much stock in the Standard Tells, here - although I have seen IIoA before, I don't think what Erg0's doing fits that pattern, although you could see it that way due to confirmation bias if you were specifically looking for it, hm. I figure it's a good tell, but generally limited.. Tar's play seems very by-the-numbers, I'm not sure if that's in character. Hm, I disagree with Patrick about Glork's nitpicking, that seems precisely the kinda thing he picks up on (thinking back to Open 54 here) most frequently.

hasdgfas's 153 strikes me as staying near the sidelines for some reason.. not sure I like that. My vague impression was he was like that in Pine Barrens, all tentative like.. I can't remember if I've seen him as town, yet.

I agree with PokerFace that I don't see a real basis for calling Mizzy pro-town yet - I can't remember who did that, maybe I'll go and look back in a bit, hm. Ether seems a little different than I recall from Big Love, but then I replaced in a loooong way from the start, so perhaps it's just different circumstances, like... I can see prodding and poking random details as a good way to get things going, but you'd switch away from that after a bit. Mmm. I do quite like a lot of PokerFace's 158. Incognito seems to be making a bunch of good points hereafter.

Glork: What underlying reason do you have for acting as you are, when making post 172?
Patrick/Ether: What does Tar feel like relative to Farscape? I don't think I've seen them in a game before.
Incog: What is '42%' in post 27? Why do you like your Mizzy vote in 175?
hasdgfas: Why don't you like unprompted lists of pro-town people on 'gut' (181)? Why haven't you criticised Glork for doing exactly that? How precisely has Glork been 'useful'?
Mizzy: Can you give an example or three of Patrick's questions, and explain how they are not designed to scumhunt?
MafiaSSK: Can you explain why you thought those bunch of people were townish?

Deadline vote probably goes to cow. Humma.

I think I'd prefer an elmo lynch over a hasdcow lynch at deadline. Not seeing Patrick as a lynch candidate at the momment and I'd really like to hear Glork's comment's based on what Incognito said and what I asked of him in #258. Tarhalindur do you have any comments on the other wagons that are out there?

In case anyone was wondering, its simply a policy opinion of mine that any player who is nearing a chance of being deadlined lynched should claim with enough time for the lynch to go elsewhere. I think I may have mentioned it in Mafia Discussion awhile ago. I see vanilla claims as null issues since town looses nothing big and scum can make that claim with ease since its usually on page1. Since I didn't consider hasdcow as scum before the claim, I pretty much don't consider him as scum after, null issue. One thing I will say is this though from reading the end comments of Weather Mafia and some things in MD
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 48#1037848
I get the impression hasdcow might have trouble making a fake claim as scum. I dont know if that would be a reason for him to go for nilla claim as scum, but either way I'm still not inclined to vote him at this time.

[PokerFace]

Forgot to respond to this:

Pokerface: How heavily do you generally use metagaming? How do you feel it helps you? If I were to metagame you, would I find you placing an unusual emphasis on metagaming here, and why?

I usually don't use it this heavily. Most of the time I consider it as extra knowledge to keep in mind when analyzing a player that always lurks or has little content/involvement in the game. It can help me find drastic differences in their play. If you were to metagame me, i would say that YES, I am dwelling more on metagaming in this game. I mentioned earlier that I was doing this and why I was doing this in posts #239 and #250.

I may comment on #274 more later, I'm really tired and I want to go to bed now.

[PokerFace]

Patrick, Incognito, Ether

- Got no real problem with these players they have been fairly active and haven't really done anything that pings me as scummy. I rather liked Patrick's post 280, it has alot of good analysis. They have participated alot in this game and encouraged/asked the inactives to chip in more ocasionally. I think if they were scum they would be letting people be less active all they wanted.

Mizzy

- I understood some elements of her case on Patrick. Didn't really agree with them, but I got at least an idea of what she was thinking and saw her do some scum hunting. I am willing to overlook her earlier low activity. My early activity level was bad too.

hasdgfas

- His wagon arose over his double standard over some scumhunting views, and voting maffaSSK with lack of memory. The double standard part can be used to find associations between him and other players. Since I don't truly know the allignment of the other players yet I can't read too much into that. I usually don't look for conections between players until one is dead and they are scum. I am not convinced he is scum. I understand some of his logic behind saying flat out that too many people are town.

Tarhalindur

- I am rather pleased with his recent postings. Like me he is more active as deadlines get closer. We do need a more aggressive player in this game. His analysis of Elmo/roland makes sence to me.

Ergo & Scotmany

- I kinda thought they explained their earlier votes and views pretty well. They're not really pinging my scumdar currently so I got no real problem with them.

Nuetral to scum

Glork

- Why is there a camp that allows a player to be generally useless? I may have to glance at those games Ether spoke of during the night. When he voted hasdgfas he didn't go into great detail with his own opinion on him. It looked pretty much like a let's hurry up and bandwagon before deadline post. Deadline was moved and I expect more of oppinion then just:

Hasdgfas is like my compromise lynch at this point... enough suspicion that I'm willing and able to go for it right now, but certainly not enough that I'd remove him if I were able.

My head's not really in this game. I'm going to be doing an extensive re-read of the game once we hit night, and I should be more organized from there on out.

MafiaSSK

- Do you really have no opinion on who is scum? Really? Vote somebody who you think is scum at deadline instead of somebody who you said is town. Take some kind of stance here.

Scummy

Elmo

- Like I said in my last post, he took quite awhile to post and contribute. When he did contribute he lacked alot of his own analysis, he repeated alot of views other people had already said and the general impression I got from his view of hasdgfas looked like reaching. I am good with saying he is scum and needs a lynching.

Vote: Elmo

[PokerFace]

PokerFace: What of the bolded parts in 278 do not logically follow from cow's indicated posts? What precisely does 'not great own analysis' mean, here?

Some of the bolded parts give post numbers. The numbered posts were very short and so the comments you made kinda came off as reaching. I didn't see how you could draw such big conclusions from posts like that. By great own analisys you said alot of stuff that had already been said in words simular to what everyone else had been saying so you weren't saying alot of your own stuff on the reviewing part. One other reason i was voting you is you seemed to come out of nowhere to vote cow. I admit you did say in post #246 that you were going to, but it still seemed off because your reached comments seem like crap excuses to use to just hop on the wagon late.

Deadline vote probably goes to cow. Humma.

Is humma short for humor? It better not have been. Also I believe I mentioned most of this earlier, so pay attention. As far as voting you today I rather liked your first post today since it had some more original thoughts so I think I'll hold off especially since I believe the Glork vs Tarhalindur matter is alot more pressing. But don't you think I'm giving you a free pass overall I intend to still keep an eye on you.

I don't get too much of the wagon on Tarhalindur right now. It seems like a little BS to me as well, but I'd perfer he defended himself more than just claimed. On the issue of counter claiming I agree with Ergo and Scotmany for the most part, its up to anyone with info contradictory to what Tarhalindur has claimed to step forward if they want to. Better they have flavor info over counterclaiming though simply because more than one cop is possible. I've seen more than one cop happen in some theme games I've read, yet I severly doubt there is more than one cop in a normal game. I ain't seen any normals with more than one cop if someone else has they can point it out to me. Still on the off chance there is, its up to that player to decide if they want to step forward or not I won't encourage that matter any further.

I mentioned some reasons for not liking Glorks play yesterday and I doubt a scum Tarhalindur would take a risk like this so early in the game. His claim being a lie would mean instant death to him tomorrow so I'm leaning towards voting Glork, but I think I'd like to see a claim out of Glork aswell before things go any further.

[PokerFace]

Hey everybody. Sorry I have not checked in in awhile. I need to stop focusing on my other games and catchup on things here sometime soon. I'll try to give a big content post tonight or tomorrow.

[PokerFace]

[joke]Sorry I was gone so long. I was rather distracted by the scenary. Who has change for a twenty? I am out of one dollar bills.[/joke]
(Truth: I caught a bug the other day so I wasn't feeling great health wise)

Post #375, Glork points out some problems in my logic. I suppose scum will sometimes do whatever it takes like that, but Tarhalindur hasn't struck me as the kind of player that would do that as scum. And despite his acclaim, I wouldn't call Glork the highest profile player in this game.

Post #377, Tarhalindur points out some breadcrumbs. It is normally a good idea to investigate someone you don't have a read on or someone you believe has the same alignment as another person. But like Cow I do not see Ether as scum right now. Ether's play has not been scummy. There is only some slight connection fully dependant on Glork's alignment. I also disagree with Tarhalindurs assessment of incognito. I fail to see how voting Glork was ever a push of hasdfgas's wagon.

Post #379, I see an odd contradiction. Tarh. said Ether had moved on to his scumdar because of Glork (He thinks they're scum buddies) and then later he says:

3) Suspecting has and suspecting SSK are not mutually exclusive. My scumdar shows who I find scummy, not who I think is in a scumgroup together.

Post #384, Ether shows a large flaw in Glorks claim

I am an exotic dancer, Jailkeeper. Obviously this explains my blunder at during confirmations when I blurted that I was the hottest person in the game.

See...if you'd tried to paint this as a breadcrumb, I might cut you some slack. You're saying here that your train of thought was,

"I'm a power role called a dancer. Everyone else must also be dancers!"

Post #388, If glork wants to grill people and possibly expose more scum, he is more then welcome to. Its alot better than having him resign himself to the thought he'll be lynched no matter what.

Post #391, I agree with Incognito's assessment of Lepton's Gambit

Re: Lepton's Gambit. The only reason I could think of for a Tarhalindur-scum to use Lepton's Gambit at this stage of the game is if he felt like Glork was so dangerous to the scum that sacrificing himself tomorrow would be worth it just to have Glork lynched today. Otherwise I would expect a Tarhalindur-scum to simply claim FBI agent and then claim to have investigated someone as an "innocent" thereby allowing himself to potentially get more time to live and casting even further seed of doubt for tomorrow... ...

If Glork is today's lynch and does turn up town, then Tarhalindur should be lynched tomorrow pronto...

I support this product and or service. I'll vote Tarh. without hesitation in that scenario. Tar's flavor was he called his superiors who checked a database for info. So in theory his sanity would be dependent on a computer database. Yay I am not gonna beleieve a computer is insane. A mini-game's margin for error would unlikly contain an insane cop anyway.

_________________

(Actually, I think I'm more pissed at the fact that people KNOW that when I get this ballistic over a game, I'm always protown. CovertOps vs DGB; Kingmaker II vs Pooky; Face-To-Face vs MBL; Lights Out 1 vs Pooky. If there are three reliable Glorktells, one of them is that when I raise hell all over a thread, you can damned well sure bet that I am protown and that I am stirring the pot to make the scums do something they're going to regret.)

the fact that you're saying this to us makes me trust it less. You could easily be playing off your meta in order to make us not lynch you.

I agree with you cow. I'm not a fan of people using there own metas as a defense. I find metas much more believable if someone other than the player in question brings up the meta.

I agree with these statements. Meta's are more believeable when someone other than the player in question brings it up.

Cow, I don't fucking care. I'd give at elast 75% that I'm going to be lynched today in spite of whatever I say or do. I made that statement as a meta build for future games.

Actually, my point was that now that you have mentioned it, and know that you do it, it invalidates the entire meta, because you can do the same thing in any game now, regardless of alignment. Saying it did the exact opposite of building your meta.

I find it odd that someone who said:

It was meant in general. I am a prime example of someone who intentionally varies his playstyle from game to game, regardless of alignment.

Would want to build such a meta.

_________________

Glork looks like he's given up on winning the argument on facts, and is instead going for the "hearts and minds" approach. The increase in his level of desparation is apparent over the last 24 hours. He starts off at least considering it possible that Tar really is a cop ("Apparently y'all are going to play follow the claimed cop. And Tar's doing his job."), but is now painting Tar as 100% certain to be scum.

Instinctively I want to ignore this as an emotional issue, but that doesn't leave me with much to go on, since his contributions pre-claim were deliberately minimal.

In some ways it did sound like Glork was actually considering Tarh was the cop. Also his comments saying he has certainty he will be lynched, does come off as a bit of a "hearts and minds" approach, but something about the last sentence here bugs me. Is the he in the last sentence refering to Glork or Tarh? The placement of the last proper noun gives me an odd feeling of wishywashness or undermined logic. Who were you refering to in that sentence, Erg0?

Post #411 by Glork makes me feel a little bit better about him. I would like to see Tarh make some defence in relation to the case Glork has presented. Tarh riding his claim is not equivalent to a defence. Tarh has made some small comments, but has not gone into great lenght about the Glork's case on him. Until I read this post I was a bit confused as to what case Glork had on Tarhalindur. That would be why I thought the case looked like BS, Elmo.

Post #413 is where Mizzy votes SSK instead of voting on either Glork or Tarh. Since being voted and having questions posed towards him, SSK has been acting more town like. Perhaps I will think of some good question to ask him aswell.

Post #418 by glork,

B) Day One, I was also playing a deliberately obstinate, "lazy" game, so to speak. Citing that I've been a Paragon and going on lengthy interrogations yesterday would have completely undermined what I was trying to do yesterday.

Post #421 by Erg0

I am a prime example of someone who intentionally varies his playstyle from game to game, regardless of alignment.

Next question: to what extent does the above statement apply to the current game? Was there any reason for your play on day 1 beyond laziness?

Post #422 by glork

After the first few pages, I was convinced that at least a few other players knew I was non-Vanilla. I tried to maintain a relatively low profile. I guess I was feeling playful, because I took potshots at a few players (like when Incog debunked Hascow early on), but I never really got in the mood to read over the entire game.

Post #419 by glork

Oh, and to answer your question: Aside from the early page blunders I made, no. Not at all. I almost NEVER let my role affect how I play. I have been the most loud and belligerent and active player as a Doctor (in fact, in Sesame Street Mafia, I got the GF lynched D1 then got killed N1), I've been every variety of vanilla townie. How I play is determined more by A) the players around me; and B) how the first ~4 pages play out. Changing one's play based on one's role is ASKING to be read like a book. It's bad mafia.

It would appear that parts of Glork's role really did effect his play despite almost mentioning otherwise.

_________________

Post #448 I am not sure I entirely agree with Either's assessment of scotmany. He didn't bring up MafiaSSK directly in post 228. I'll have to take a look at how he answers your question later.

Post #450 by glork

Ether: So how would that make him my scumbuddy? He has openly stated several times that he is inclined to believe me more. Are you saying you'd expect him to be the one stand-out for

his scumbuddy

when my death one way or another is all but

guaranteed by tomorrow morning?

That seems unbelievably fruitless.

The part "his scumbuddy" sounds off because I don't think Ether implied he was anyone's buddy but yours. Also what exactly do you mean by tomorrow morning? It sounds like you are implying you will be vigged or die tonight as scum. This post somehow comes off as a WIFOM question of how far we'd expect Scotmany to go in relation to a scumbuddy Glork lynching.

Post #453 by Scotmany, He answer's Ether's questions. Nothing in it really pings my scumdar so I wouldn't say I see him being scum with Glork or anyone at this moment.

[PokerFace]

There is only some slight connection fully dependant on Glork's alignment.

Elaborate.

Well I don't like coming off as though I'm giving other people's coments/answers, but anyway Tar seems to think you guys are connected because of this:

2) I saw a possible connection between Ether and Glork yesterday, so investigating Glork might also give me a better read on Ether. Speaking of that, now that I have her reaction to the Glork wagon (she was pretty supportive of Glork yesterday - note the "Glork's town tell" and "I would not be up for a Glorklynch; I am in the "Glork is allowed to suck on Day 1" camp." posts - but she claimed to believe me completely today), I now feel comfortable saying that Ether has moved firmly onto my scumdar.

HoS: Ether

More coming ASAP.

...the rolandhate has a double-standard that doesn't take Glork's town tell into account. Ick.

...I would not be up for a Glorklynch; I am in the "Glork is allowed to suck on Day 1" camp...

I can see how that can be somewhat of a conection. However I don't exactly feel the same way Tar does since I don't know Glork's alignment, and that conection is dependent on Glork being scum. If Glork ain't scum then you can't be scum for those statements alone.

Personally even if Glork is scum, I still have trouble thinking Ether is scum because I have not seen Ether make any real scummy remarks/actions individually or on her own. I prefer pursueing a player that has made some actual scummy moves, besides being somewhat connected to another scum. Its simply a matter of how i scumhunt. A case of them being scum and connected to one scum >> a case on a connection alone.

_________________

Now... given the lengthy analysis you just made, what conclusions (or even inklings) do you have right now?

As it stands I'm leaning heavily on voting you while waiting to see if Tarh has anything else to say especially about the case you have on him. I want to see more out of him before I make my final decision. Feel free to comment on anything else in my analysis or grill any player you want to while we wait on him.

Perhaps I'll look at these while we wait:

...Take a look at my games as town (particularly Mini 467 and Mini 527 - sadly, the best example is ongoing) - I'm generally at my best at finding scum when I can connect them to other scum...

I wonder if that ongoing game he speaks of finished.

As it stands I'm also not sure I follow the logic Erg0 just gave in post #463. Him saying that last pronoun was Glork gives me the impression that he was sort of undermining some of his logic in that quoted post too. I'll touch on this more later pending on what impression I get from re-reading #463. That post was confusing.

[PokerFace]

<<Will catch up tomorrow or on the weekend. I apoligize for not giving this game the attention it has due to it.

[PokerFace]

What is it that you don't follow in 463?

I was half asleep when I read it before, but basically your logic states that a vulnerable to investigation Glork scum would not have played the way he did on day1. I admit that you know how Glork plays better than I do since this is my first experience with Glork in the same game as me, but I not sure I like the idea of he would play better than this as a vulnerable to investigation scum. Evrybody makes mistakes.

In post #474, #475 Glork refutes some of my logic. I guess I better understand what he meant with the varying playstyle and he wants something there to save his ass just in case as town. I personally would only want something to save my ass if I were scum, but nevertheless his logic does make better sence now. A little more on this next paragraph.

In posts #474, #476 Glork better explains why he believe other players were dancers. I think I may now understand why I once got that vibe that Glork thought Ether would have reasons to be jealous. I think my original view/problem involving this point and the one in the last paragraph was that I believed they indeed were mutally exclusive. I thought Glork was trying to say something along the lines of I'm a dancer and I'm a power role. Everyone else must be dancer's and they would be power roles. I think I may have been drawing a bit of a bad assumption/line of thought there. I was thinking like incognito was in post #499. Considering the game Glork links in #504 later on I see how all players were dancers and how certainly all of them weren't power roles.

A question to those who have issues with my claim... Given that I basically stated that I was a dancing girl in my confirmation post, which do you find more likely:
A) I am a scum dancing girl; or
B) I am not a dancing girl but chose to cement the flavor of my role/claim before the game even began?.

This is a very good question. I was indeed previously considering him being a scum dancing girl, but there are some problems with considering that. The scum are the Moretti's right? And since they are a mob group associated with the club, it is unlikly that all of them would be dancers. And if they aren't all dancers and since scum in every game can always talk during pregame, I'm fairly certain Glork scum dancing girl would have realized his mistake of all players not being dancers alot sooner.

By the way,....

And despite his acclaim, I wouldn't call Glork the highest profile player in this game.

...you may be entitled to your opinion, but fact is, Erg0 (referring to me as a "night action magnet at the best of times") knows I'm one of the highest-profile players.

Even more importantly, Tarh himself said this just now:

2) I had a guilty on one of, if not THE most prominent player in the game.

This is HUGE, PokerFace, because it exactly supports the point I was trying to make. Regardless of whether YOU think I'm high-prof, the

player

lyingdirtyscumbag who claimed a guilty on me thinks I'm top of the line.

Thus, as I said before: If he's going down and wants to take someone out first, he'll take high-profile. He just stated that he thinks I'm very high-profile.

I rest my case.

Well I'll be damned. I am droping my earlier line of reasoning since it doesn't entirly matter who I would consider the most promient player. It would indeed matter who Tarhalindur considered was the prominent player.

Also just for clarification sake, I am not sure crumbing is the right word to describe what you did early day 1. Crumbing is done deliberately; while if you really are a dancing girl, you revealed parts of your role completely on accident in your earliest of comments because of your mistake of everyone else being dancers. So yes you did imply a dancer role early in the game, but I'm not so sure it was all on purpose. The later crumbs you point out in #497 may have been done on purpose but the earliest ones weren't entirely. Either way though, purposely or accidently, in a joke or not, the "crumbs" still heavily aid the possibility you are a dancing girl.

_________________

First: For those of you attacking me for not defending myself before claiming, consider these two problems with your attack:

1) I did not look at the thread until the time that I claimed. By that point, I was at L-2 with more than ten players alive. Under such conditions I consider a claim OBLIGATORY, to the extent that I would be attacking you for failing to force the claim if you had backed off the wagon.

2) I had a guilty on one of, if not THE most prominent player in the game. Under such conditions, I would have been strongly inclined to claim even if I was not already in claim range.

Here, in post 477 Tarhalindur first two points explain why he didn't defend himself earlier because he felt his claim was absolutly necessary at that time, HOWEVER that does not explain why he won't address the comments of that case on him, now.

_________________

As it stands there have been numerous comments about flavor with both Glork and Tarhalindur's claims being off.

Glork: What does your scumgroup look like now? iirc, you protect people by taking them into the VIP section, but the flavour indicates kills happen after everyone's gone home - can you comment on that? Can you articulate why you thought Patrick was scum?

...Firstly, I'm not sold on the idea that kills happen after everyone goes home. Secondly -- though my flavor doesn't state this explicitly, it is reasonable to assume that I give my target some "special attention" (if ya know what I mean) all night long, which would perfectly explain how they can neither harm nor be harmed...

How he gets the results does not fit at all. He says he gets his results from the FBI database. If the computer knew who was scum or not, then why would he go into an investigation uninformed? I didn't have a problem with the FBI part. How he gets the results just doesn't fit at all. And the FBI thing should be a null tell. It is in the opening post, scum can use it for a fake claim. I don't think it supports his claim at all.

Where do the killings happen/how does Glork's "service" stop that and why would Tarhalindur go into the investigate the club if he's already got a database with the info on it. Something I don't think anyone has pointed out would be these two flavor comments by OGML.

"Be careful what you say!" warns a third person. "They're probably still here. They're probably among us right now." The implications of that statement are quickly realized. The doors to the club are quickly shut and barred.
"No police then. We do this the old fashioned way."

With that, the bouncer ushers the emotionally and physically drained crowd out the door of the club, agreeing that all will return tomorrow.

So we were barred inside and then after the lynching with the bouncer's intrusion we were all sent go home. Bee nice if all did return to club too. But regardless shouldn't we still be barred inside based on the original flavor? And if we were allowed to go home Tarhalindur wouldn't need to call his superiors to check the database he could just go to the database and check himself. So I guess there are a few things off with both flavor's in general if you look at what OGML wrote.

_________________

As things stand most of the stuff I said on Glork has indeed been proven wrong. He could very well be a dancing girl and if he was a scum dancing girl {assuming the other scum aren't dancing girls (The dead npc was a dancing girl)} he would have likely realized his error in thought during pregame instead of during the game. Tarhalindur has not made great aknowledgement of the case Glork put on him earlier and it would appear that he is attacking the most prominent player in his mind. I am no longer heavily leaning on voting Glork, I'm waiting for Tarhalindur's next comments to decide what to do.

I do have one question for Elmo or whoever may know the answer while I wait on tarhalindur. What is meant by the word inertia?

I am assuming that Glork knows how to play his metagame, and that the "obstinate" d1 style gets used equally as town/scum. If that's wrong, someone correct me; I have no desire to plough through however many completed games. I'm not influenced by that in either direction. I sort of expected Glork to grill everyone apart from Tar and get a read from him based on that. Doesn't seem to have happened, so much.

Inertia

means I still dislike Tar. Eh.

And don't go scientifical on me. I know that inertia is the force that keeps you going when you try to stop or slowdown. I am not quite getting why you are using that word to describe why you still disliked Tarhalindur.

[PokerFace]

I am actually starting to become disinterested aswell. Since both claims are off some flavor wise I've decided to pretty much look at the day1 play from a more objective point of view. At the end of day1 I considered Glork scumier than Tarhalindur.
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 87#1078587

If I factor in the reasoning I now see for some parts of his play, that I learned today I actually think their levels of scuminess is about the same. I'm actually getting rather torn. But I do think that once I see one of them flip scum I will be able to figure out who their partners our. I'm developing a list at the moment.

Unlike day one the suspicions on hasdgfas seem more clearer now. I got time to look back and kinda liked a couple of posts by scotmany on cow.
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/posting. ... &p=1071498

I feel that someone who is useless IS a threat to the town, because if they're alive on later days when someone more useful is dead, the town's chances go down.

I really don't view uselessness as a scumtell, at least not on day 1. Is being useless detrimental to the town? Absolutely, but antitown=/=scum. Town member can easily be quite useless. So I view your push on ssk to be scummy. You actually posted reasons for being suspicious of Glork and PF other than them being useless. Instead of going for the players you actually posted reasons for, you go for a lurker. You going for a player who is not posting content seems opportunistic to me, like you are trying to start an easy lynch.

The elmo wagon is intriguing. I don't really have a solid meta on him, so I don't know what to think of him taking so long to post. Only finished game I played with him was nervous, where he was scum and did lurk a lot, but to be fair, everyone in that game lurked. Interestingly, he also made a large summary post in that game as well...I could see him as scum...

I think I'd see hasdgfas more so with Tarhalindur than Glork though because of some of the stuff Glork said relating hasdgfas to Tarhalindur. Incognito's case on Glork and cow being together does look interesting but I think it would be more believeable that cow was with Tarhalindur.

I'm not certain who my third scum in that pairing would be. Perhaps Mizzy for her iregular hop on MafiaSSK earlier, but I'm not sure.

As far as Glork being scum I think I'd see him with Elmo and one other. Though i did like Elmo's last post, despite the fact some of his points look like repitition of points made by others. The other person I'd partly consider glork with would be Erg0. I originally thought Erg0 was going to vote Glork today because one of his early comments gave me that impression. The words he uses as he discusses Glork look like implication of a stronger suspicion then what he says about tarhalindur.
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 35#1088435
but since he has had his epiphany and gone the other way I've started to wonder if there may be something there. I wouldn't call it a strong suspicion of a conection though.
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 70#1099270

_________________

Would you rather I throw out my thoughts / opinions on the remaining players before day ends and essentially doom myself to a

maximum

50% chance of surviving, or should I take a chance and see if I can negate a kill attempt on me tonight?

I also think Glork should indeed give his thoughts on other players. He has a chance of guessing wrong either way. By giving his thoughts, we are left with actual information we can use for the future. Him staying silent will deprieve us of that useful info. Should he guess wrong and tell us nothing then we will indeed have nothing.

As things stand I am going to try and use their next actions to decide who I should vote before deadline. I'd like Tarhalindur to gve more on Glork and or defend the acusations Glork put on him at the start of the day. I'd like Glork to present his opinions of others and or grill others more if there is time for that last part. If tar continues to do nothing I think I am going to have to lynch him over Glork.

[PokerFace]

Reasons? I don't recall you recently bringing up anything that makes me scum. Is it just my participation level? I suppose I am in a bit too many games right now.

[PokerFace]

Ok I am here. A couple of things.

Even though I agree that Cow is probably scum, I still get some interestingly scummy vibes from Incog, maybe that's why I read his posting so far today as being defensive and overly so. Probably just me, but that's how I feel.

Being overlydefensive should never being considered with scuminess. Only thing I think Incog did wrong was drop the hammer a little early before we could discuss things, but its all good I guess, i can see a townie making that mistake considering Tar's confession.

If there's someone alive who has a better meta on Erg0, I'm sheeping on everyone else's behavior toward him and would love to hear more. Just so we're clear on that.

Only played one game with Erg0 (Mini 554). We were both town in that game, and my overall impression of him so far is I feel like he was much more prolific in that game when compared to this one. He would be next in my suspicions list after hasdgfas...

A recent game I've been in with Erg0 "Dynamite Mafia" he was not very prolific. Same with a game I read awhile back called "Elemental Mafia"

Dynamite: http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=8119
Elemental: http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=8167

In both these games Erg0 was town and lurked a bit when compared to the activity levels of the other players. I think he is more likly in alot of games at the moment and hense shortening his activity in some games. Either that or his access problems are worse then he tells us. I don't think Erg0 is scum at the moment. I lean towards a different player being with Tar and Cow.

I got no problem with the cow wagon. There have been some good reasons mentioned for him being scum as of late, and I mentioned some reasons for thinking he was scum in post #581. I will wait to vote only because it will put him at L-1 and I don't want him to do what Tarhalindur attempted to do especially since not everyone has posted yet. What else shall we discuss today?

[PokerFace]

Very well, here is what i am thinking

1.hasdgfas <already mentioned some reasons for this
2.eldarad/mafiassk <go to this recently 'completed' game
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=8601
Compare mafiassk's play in that game to his play here. See if you have enough fingers to count the simularities. In both games he said lurking was a strategy. And in that game he was the scum leader. I don't think Elderad's late jump on the Glork wagon was a town sign.

*gap* I think those that follow have a chance at being town but have done some scummy/confusing actions

3.incognito <hammer on Tar, tunnel visioned on glork for the most part
4.Erg0 <His activity/prolificness does not determine wether he is town or scum in my opinion. His epiphany of voting Tar still feels wierd, but when I look at the early day1 exchanges between Tar and Erg0 (they voted each other at different points and considering Tar's early push on Erg0) I think he has a chance at being town. Would anyone like to disagree or discuss this considering Tar and Erg0's early interactions?

*gap* I think these people probably aren't scum

5.Mizzy <Jump on mafiassk day2 was bad but I think she may be town for other reasons
6.Ether <I don't think you have done anything individually scummy. Your vote toward Tar looked a little odd day2. Tar's push on you being with Glork gives me mixed thoughts aswell. Aside from that nothing.
7.Scotmany <I don't think he has done anything scummy IMO
8.Elmo <Tar's card flip combined with his push on Elmo day one makes me think Elmo is town. Looking back at Elmo's play I think i may be dealing with the same Elmo I saw in "Dynamite Stick Mafia"

Any other questions/comments you have for me, Ether? Elmo, would you like to say anything or mention more about your suspicions? I value your viewpoint at this point in the game.

[PokerFace]

I more so thought he was referencing us in an attempt to clear himself via context for the "Akatsuki" game. Our game is ongoing and so no one knows his alignment here except him. Just before Mafiassk left us here the general concensus was that he had a good chance of being town. When looking at an ongoing game where you have not card flipped, all you can get is a general consensus of the views others have of you. So basically you are using the views of others to clear you and since your alignment and the alignments of others viewing you is unknown, it is not evidence that can entirely clear you in any game. In the "Akatsuki" game he mentioned his stategies as working to find scum. But he wasn't really finding scum in our game with the strategy nor was he really using it for that purpose in the "Akatsuki" game. He never deeply went into who he thought was scum. He only briefly said why he thought Glork had a better chance of being scum over Tarhalindur. All his lurking ever did was keep him hidden from criticism until someone pointed it out. If you think my view is incorrect tell me. And now that i think about it, we should probably watch how this topic is discussed since I don't want to see any modkillings involved with the aspect of people talking about ongoing games elsewhere. Modkills is an unsportsman like thing to happen in any game.

Aside from Erg0's prolificness being low, are there any other reasons you may suspect him? I seem to remember you having and exchange of views earlier, when Erg0 voted Tarhalindur over Glork.

[PokerFace]

~~~
PokerFace, do you have anything based on

this game

that makes you believe I am scum?
Do you have any reason to believe that MafiaSSK's assertion that his lurking helps him to find scum (because scum tend to try to lynch lurkers more than townies do) was false? Why or why not?

~~~

The only thing I have on you would be that you did not really consider the possibility that Tar was scum. I began to change my mind on Glork when I came to the conclusion below.

A question to those who have issues with my claim... Given that I basically stated that I was a dancing girl in my confirmation post, which do you find more likely:
A) I am a scum dancing girl; or
B) I am not a dancing girl but chose to cement the flavor of my role/claim before the game even began?.

This is a very good question. I was indeed previously considering him being a scum dancing girl, but there are some problems with considering that. The scum are the Moretti's right? And since they are a mob group associated with the club, it is unlikly that all of them would be dancers. And if they aren't all dancers and since scum in every game can always talk during pregame, I'm fairly certain Glork scum dancing girl would have realized his mistake of all players not being dancers alot sooner.

You weren't as tunnel visioned on Glork as Incognito was, but I never got the impression that you were keeping an open mind. Aside from that I haven't really got much on you alone.

And yes I think SSK's assumption is false for a few reasons.
1) Glork and Patrick made comments about MafiaSSK's lurkings away from deadlines and the two of them were both town. They didn't greatly push a lynch on Mafiassk, but they did notice and go after him at times outside of deadlines. Which proves town players can also go after him, not just scum will go after him.
2) "Paraphaseing" SSK said the lurking allows him to deduce more easily who is scum based on those that attack him. He only briefly mentioned Glork could be scum based on Glork's comments on MafiaSSK. Did MafiaSSK ever mention anyone else as being scum for commenting on him?

No.

And did other players notice and comment on is lurking outside of deadlines?

Yes

. I did, Cow did, Mizzy did, etc and yet he never said if he thought any of us were scum. Cow even voted and wanted to lynch him and SSK still didn't really say he thought cow was scum. SSK only responded when we asked questions and did not provide any aditional individual insight later on as to wether our attacks/comments made us scum. I think the only reason he truly commented on Glork was so that Glork would stop pressuring him and thus he could go back to lurking. Which he did go back to lurking.

For these reasons I think all his lurking was really doing, was an attempt to go unnoticed completly. I don't think it was a strategy bent on catching scum that noticed his lurking/tried to get him lynched outside deadlines. If his strategy was truly designed to do that, he would have voted and attacked people like me, hasdfgas, mizzy etc and tried to get us lynched for being scummy. He would not have gone just briefly after Glork alone.

[PokerFace]

PF, I just ran a brief number-meta on your average posts per day and page; you seem to be posting much less frequently here. I only used three games aside from this one, and I acknowledge that this isn't a large enough sampling to drive a case against you--still, is something wrong?

Before mid Aprilish I was usually only in 1 or 2 games at a time, but as of late I am currently in 4 games. A couple did end and start while this game was running but usually I am not in this many games at once. Aside from that, no nothing is really wrong. I'd sooner call all that different than wrong.

[PokerFace]

I am even more sure now that Eldarad is town. There is one situation in which my newest tell on him would cease to be true, but I don't find it at all likely. I'd rather not get into it right now. He and Mizzy really need to stop fighting.

I think I know what you are refering to, but I am not so certain it clears ether of them completly. Some wifom maybe involved thar.

(If you don't get what I mean then we must not be thinking the same thing)

[PokerFace]

who do you guys see cow as being paired with? Not a really important question at this point but I'm curious.

Well I mentioned earlier what my thoughts were on who is scum. I am fairly certain the remaining scum is in the top four list of suspects that I gave. I am fine with lynching Cow. I don't see his back and forth exchange with eld/ssk as something that would make one of them not scum. Call it distancing if you want either way I am still down with all that. As things stand I'd like to give Erg0 some time to comment and finish his analysis. I will vote cow before the day ends I assure you, but I'd like to see what Erg0 has before the lynch is done. I am relativly free this weekend so getting in a vote will be easy. I just got nightkilled in a few of my games aswell so I got more free time now. At this moment Cow has half majority anyway so I don't see a need to vote him instantly since his lynch looks rather inevitable.

[PokerFace]

I am even more sure now that Eldarad is town. There is one situation in which my newest tell on him would cease to be true, but I don't find it at all likely. I'd rather not get into it right now. He and Mizzy really need to stop fighting.

I think I know what you are refering to, but I am not so certain it clears ether of them completly. Some wifom maybe involved thar.

(If you don't get what I mean then we must not be thinking the same thing)

Oh and a simple yes or no question. Ether did you understand what I meant?

[PokerFace]

I want Scot to get back and Erg0 to finish. I'd prefer an Erg0lynch over a PFlynch tomorrow, but I don't really feel like providing reasons for this.

I don't remember PF ever asking me about Eldarad. Assumptions, sure, but not really any questions, except to clarify that we were on the same page and he could disregard my

true

thoughts as WIFOM. We've apparently got that cryptic thang going on.

(wink wink fist pump clasp hands wiggle left foot hello Acid)

Oh and a simple yes or no question. Ether did you understand what I meant?

Most likely. Wow, I feel stupid doing this.

Hmm perhaps we are talking about the same thing and i am just looking at it differently then. I didn't mean to imply it was all wifom. I see a only some elements of wifom involved with clearing them both. I guess I'll look at that entire matter during the night and see if I should reconsider anything. At any rate still down for Cow lynch. I'll vote on monday morning when I wake up to go to work. Hopefully Scotmany should have enough time to say something by then. I forgot he was on v/la.

_________________

I'm referring to the fact that I voted Tar based on reasoning which contradicted Glork's answers to my questions.

PF had just noted the conversation that I had with Glork on the subject, and noted that Glork's initial answer that his role didn't affect his play on day 1 was (at least partially) inaccurate. I let Glork's contradiction slide because I never expected him to answer me honestly, regardless of his alignment - but I never explicitly said that I was doing this. PokerFace never raised this as an issue, despite noting and commenting on my vote after I made it.

Um, I believe I did later note (a little before day 2 ended) that some of your coments with Glork led me to think you would vote Glork until you had your epiphany.

As far as Glork being scum I think I'd see him with Elmo and one other. Though i did like Elmo's last post, despite the fact some of his points look like repitition of points made by others. The other person I'd partly consider glork with would be Erg0. I originally thought Erg0 was going to vote Glork today because one of his early comments gave me that impression. The words he uses as he discusses Glork look like implication of a stronger suspicion then what he says about tarhalindur.
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 35#1088435
but since he has had his epiphany and gone the other way I've started to wonder if there may be something there. I wouldn't call it a strong suspicion of a conection though.
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 70#1099270

Yes I didn't exactly say your questions and Glork's answer's, but this was the general impression I had gotten. And I guess I did not look/go that deeply into the "question and answer" aspect, because you letting it slide wasn't of absolute importance since I didn't see you as a lynch for day2. Now that you bring the whole subject up I may have to later look deeply into why you let it all slide . Better compare the strength of your early exchange vs your epiphany, and see if you had good reason to let it slide or not and if you might have a more reasonable link to Tarhalindur.

_________________

Hmmm. PokerFace is really into metagaming (c.f. 158 and like every day 1 post) but leaves it until 633 to say "I think i may be dealing with the same Elmo I saw in 'Dynamite Stick Mafia'", after voting to lynch me day 1 for play that seems similar, if not better - I lurked the entire game, for one. This is one thing that bugged me, but I didn't quite pin down until now. You've been metagaming, but ignore the one game we've been in together to jump onto a scum-led wagon? Explain.

When I meta I don't like taking ongoing games into account, but sometimes I still do it somewhat despite trying to ignore it. Dynamite mafia 'ended' during this game and up until you struck a light and went boom in Dynamite, I thought you were scum in both games. You went boom on Jun1st-Jun2nd of Dynamite Mafia. And Day 1 ended in this game on May29th before I learned I was wrong about you in dynamite. When I learned I was wrong in one game was when I began to wonder if I was wrong here.

Like i said earlier I'll vote on monday. And I'd also like to see elderad's answer to Cow's question in post 681 before the day ends. later

[PokerFace]

interesting...
Tar started a counter wagon when cow was about to be lynched.

Cow is about to be lynched again and Erg0 is re-enforcing the wagon that has been established on me.

Erg0 believes I merely noted that info in order to get people raise it against Glork. And perhaps push against Erg0 during day two. I'm not sure if I'm understanding you 100%. In the same post I mention:

As far as Glork being scum I think I'd see him with Elmo and one other. Though i did like Elmo's last post, despite the fact some of his points look like repitition of points made by others. The other person I'd partly consider glork with would be Erg0. I originally thought Erg0 was going to vote Glork today because one of his early comments gave me that impression. The words he uses as he discusses Glork look like implication of a stronger suspicion then what he says about tarhalindur.
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 35#1088435
but since he has had his epiphany and gone the other way I've started to wonder if there may be something there. I wouldn't call it a strong suspicion of a conection though.
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 70#1099270

I mention also this.

As things stand I am going to try and use their next actions to decide who I should vote before deadline. I'd like Tarhalindur to gve more on Glork and or defend the acusations Glork put on him at the start of the day. I'd like Glork to present his opinions of others and or grill others more if there is time for that last part. If tar continues to do nothing I think I am going to have to lynch him over Glork.

I was leaning towards voting Tar while keeping an open mind to just Glork and tar's actions. I don't see reason why I'd focus on others and want them to get on Glork at that time. I'd be backtracking my own logic that I was becoming fairly certain of. I don't flipflop like that. Are you trying to say that you think I, PokerFace, would subtly try to get others to vote and rally against Glork at that time as Tarhalindur's partner, without voting Glork myself? Thats quite a stretch there. sounds like a crazy idea from my view point. Maybe I just don't get what you are trying to imply then, but I do not see any reason why I'd go and try to do that. I see no reason why I'd try to lynch glork and save Tarhalindur because I am not/was not scum with Tarhalindur.

I am begining to wonder now if perhaps you didn't vote Glork and brought up those strong supicions on him early on because you wanted us to push them and go after Glork. When you realized that wasn't going to happened perhaps you used this "ephany" as a dramatic way to explain your flipflop. I did seem to notice some undermined logic from you during day 2:

Glork looks like he's given up on winning the argument on facts, and is instead going for the "hearts and minds" approach. The increase in his level of desparation is apparent over the last 24 hours. He starts off at least considering it possible that Tar really is a cop ("Apparently y'all are going to play follow the claimed cop. And Tar's doing his job."), but is now painting Tar as 100% certain to be scum.

Instinctively I want to ignore this as an emotional issue, but that doesn't leave me with much to go on, since his contributions pre-claim were deliberately minimal.

In some ways it did sound like Glork was actually considering Tarh was the cop. Also his comments saying he has certainty he will be lynched, does come off as a bit of a "hearts and minds" approach, but something about the last sentence here bugs me. Is the he in the last sentence refering to Glork or Tarh? The placement of the last proper noun gives me an odd feeling of wishywashness or undermined logic. Who were you refering to in that sentence, Erg0?

That sentence refers to Glork. I don't think that Tar's day 1 effort could be construed as

deliberately

minimal.

And I mentioned not liking some parts of your epiphany aswell. I wonder if that epiphany's true purpose was to disguise you jumping ship and bussing Tarhalindur.

I brought up my thoughts in posts: 548, 581 in order to show what I was thinking. I believe you have thought out loud before in this game. I don't like setting lynches up in advance unless I am greatly certain. Since I was leaning away from thinking Glork was scum, I see no reason as to why I would pursue a case on either of you on day2, wether it be subtly or otherwise.

In general, am I for some reason not getting what you are trying to say or do I just not see how such a far fetched idea is valid evidence against me?

Also in light of recent posts I think I am beginging to see what incognito has been talking about with respect to Mizzy. If she isn't exactly who I think she is, then she may be scum afterall. Mizzy, I have only played one game with you. Do you remember our last game together? I rarely voted in that game. I only voted 2 people and each vote was on scum. There have been times when I've held off voting.

At this moment I can easily hammer Cow. And I will do that at 3PM today in my time zone (EST). I believe I should give Scotmany some more extra time to chip in should he feel the need too.

Cow, I guess I might go after Elderad or Erg0 pending on which one I think is most likly scum then. I'll be reviewing Elderad during the night as I have stated. And in this post I have just outlined reasons why Erg0 can be scum wether you are or not. Case on Erg0 is stronger if you are scum.

[PokerFace]

Well I wanted to wait a little longer to allow others to say more if they wished. Its 10 minutes to deadline I think I gave everyone enough time. I mentioned reasons previously for thinking Cow be scum and said i would vote him/support his lynching. Its cowtipping time.

Vote:hasdgfas

[PokerFace]

Well this is odd. The other day I though that elderad was going to come at me today because he thought there was a conection between me and Tar in post #670 and now he makes a post that refers to me as town. Scotmany's reasons are very compeling and make some sence especially this part about making a throw away vote over voting for someone he thought was scummy.

Last day, I wasn't thrilled with his dead-scum analysis (i didn't really see it as helpful) and him basically ignoring the cow wagon. Instead he places a vote on PF, a throw away vote. Despite calling cow scummy, he knew that he was going to come up town, so he stayed off the wagon.

I like the idea of an Erg0 lynching for Scot's reasons and some of the reasons i mentioned in post #705. The reasons that still apply at least.

But there are somethings I want to know first.

In truth, there's not a lot from this

, except the quick Tar hammer.
The Elmo pressure-vote does look like opportunism, although he pulls out prior to deadline (but then, if I'm right, both Day 1 wagons were on townies. So Incog is just making sure he does not have townie blood on his hands)

I would like to lynch Incognito Today

. However, since I'm now pretty confident of an Incog-Erg0 scumteam I'm happy to vote

vote Erg0

because it is the current live bandwagon.

You said there wasn't alot on incognito and yet you would like to lynch him today. In general there is alot more analysis in your last post pretaining to Erg0 being scum than incognito, but those last words just seem so out of place. Is there some other reason you would prefer to lynch incognito today? And if so why aren't you going to try and start a wagon on him this early on day 4?

Also yesterday alot of people weighed in on what they thought about Elderad and Mizzy. Elmo never did (Or i've forgotten/missed where) while Erg0 just basically touched on the two during his analysis of days 1 and 2. What do Elmo and Erg0 think of Elderad and Mizzy after the exchange between Eld and Miz day3?

PF: You've been metagaming, right? What's your meta on Erg0 look like, specifically?

Like I aluded to day 1, I've never really noticed any great differences between Erg0's play as scum and his play as town. I think i'll just have to continue figuring out things as they go pretaining to this game. If i find time to look into this here further, I'll let you know.

[PokerFace]

Sorry about taking a little break there. I was rather busy yesterday and most of today.

You said there wasn't alot on incognito and yet you would like to lynch him today. In general there is alot more analysis in your last post pretaining to Erg0 being scum than incognito, but those last words just seem so out of place. Is there some other reason you would prefer to lynch incognito today? And if so why aren't you going to try and start a wagon on him this early on day 4?

The "not a lot" was from the vote analysis, that I did as a separate exercise after looking at the Day 1 wagon. There was enough from the wagon analysis for me to be happier voting Incog. But I'll take an Erg0 lynch as well.

Well I'm still rather puzzled as the why you would be happier and not try to start a wagon there first. I guess I just want to see what all you think of incognito since your words back there sounded off in accordance with the other aspects of that post. If you want to elaborate further on why you think he's scum I'd apreciate it.

Also as it stands I am still kinda curious about this:

Also yesterday alot of people weighed in on what they thought about Elderad and Mizzy. Elmo never did (Or i've forgotten/missed where) while Erg0 just basically touched on the two during his analysis of days 1 and 2.

What do Elmo and Erg0 think of Elderad and Mizzy after the exchange between Eld and Miz day3?

As far as Erg0 goes I'll take a look at a few things and see if I can think of any questions for him, you, or anyone else. I am still currently for an Erg0 lynch but I see know reason to try and get some more discussion out of today.

[PokerFace]

Yay I'm still with you. I had to help my younger brother move back into his college apartment earlier today and part of yesterday. I'll be posting later tonight or at worst tomorrow morning on what has been going on since my last post. Later

[PokerFace]

Ok sorry for my relative absence here in general. I understand some of what Mizzy was trying to say, despite part of it being incorrect given context of some sentences. The point I was making with elderad earlier is simular to that.

But there are somethings I want to know first.

In truth, there's not a lot from this

, except the quick Tar hammer.
The Elmo pressure-vote does look like opportunism, although he pulls out prior to deadline (but then, if I'm right, both Day 1 wagons were on townies. So Incog is just making sure he does not have townie blood on his hands)

I would like to lynch Incognito Today

. However, since I'm now pretty confident of an Incog-Erg0 scumteam I'm happy to vote

vote Erg0

because it is the current live bandwagon.

You said there wasn't alot on incognito and yet you would like to lynch him today. In general there is alot more analysis in your last post pretaining to Erg0 being scum than incognito, but those last words just seem so out of place. Is there some other reason you would prefer to lynch incognito today? And if so why aren't you going to try and start a wagon on him this early on day 4?

...

You said there wasn't alot on incognito and yet you would like to lynch him today. In general there is alot more analysis in your last post pretaining to Erg0 being scum than incognito, but those last words just seem so out of place. Is there some other reason you would prefer to lynch incognito today? And if so why aren't you going to try and start a wagon on him this early on day 4?

The "not a lot" was from the vote analysis, that I did as a separate exercise after looking at the Day 1 wagon. There was enough from the wagon analysis for me to be happier voting Incog. But I'll take an Erg0 lynch as well.

Well I'm still rather puzzled as the why you would be happier and not try to start a wagon there first. I guess I just want to see what all you think of incognito since your words back there sounded off in accordance with the other aspects of that post. If you want to elaborate further on why you think he's scum I'd apreciate it.

If you believe Incognito is more likly scum after further analysis you should be voting for and pushing a wagon on him. You should be trying to convince others of such an opinion

while driving the wagon directly.

There has been more than enough time for you to do that since you mentioned those coments earlier. You shouldn't be voting for Erg0 unless you are certain he is scum, ie your biggest suspect. It feels like you are just settling for another lynch, and I don't think your reasons are good enough to do that. I am also not sure Mizzy should claim, I think it may be better to just drop that matter and have her keep anything that may exist hidden.

Now don't get me wrong. I still think Erg0 is scum. he is my top suspect and I see a good conection of him to tarhalindur in terms of possible distancing.

Pretty sure he is scum. His interaction with tar early day 1 (tar votes for him, while attacking ether for a "veiled attack on ergo"), tar was trying to distance here. Ergo then attempts to distance with tar during day 2. He places a nonchalant vote on tar for reasons i still don't understand. I had problems with him clearing Glork because of his day 1 actions. Regardless of how he acts, I believe Glork to be a magnet for night actions on night 1 simply do to his reputation, and as pf says, everyone makes mistakes. So I think ergo was just looking for a reason to vote for tar over glork.

Yesterday my suspects were Cow, Elderad, Incognito and Erg0. I am still very confident that the remaining scum(s) are among the three of them that are still alive. My current scum list would be:

1) Erg0-see what i said yesterday combined with what i've seen today.
2a) Elderad-see what I say here since his attack on Erg0 seems dispearsed
2b) Incognito-basically just the hammer on Tar. His answering for Erg0 may be telling as well
*Huge gap*
3+) Mizzy, Scot, Elmo - I don't think they are scum. I got no strong case telling me otherwise

I think
Tar, Erg0, Elder
Tar, Erg0, Incog
Tar, Elder, Incog
are all possible scum pairs pending how you would view elderad's attack on incognito and Erg0. Is he distancing from Incognito while forcing a mislynch, or is he bussing and setting up mislynch for tomorrow when the town will have a better view of him and his suspicions for the bussing. And also the possibily that I am not reading correctly into his actions and he is correct about Incog and Erg0. I will think more about him into the next day. I have considered Erg0's attacks on me late yesterday as premptivly setting up a mislynch for the next day.

Erg0 I suggest you claim now since I'm ready to lynch you.

[PokerFace]

EBWOP
Scum pairs - scum groups would be the better wording or grammar. I am guessing there is 3 scum based on the balance or what roles already exist like exotic dancer.

[PokerFace]

PF, I think Erg0 and Incog are scum. It does not matter which one we lynch first. So I'll take the one has the most support since we need a majority to lynch.

You shouldn't be voting for Erg0 unless you are certain he is scum, ie your biggest suspect. It feels like you are just settling for another lynch, and I don't think your reasons are good enough to do that.

You say this like it is a fact, when it is only your opinion. Who are you to tell me how I should use my vote?
As it is, I'm using my vote to help lynch someone that I believe to be scum. It also someone that you believe to be scum. So what's your problem?

Well I find it odd that your vote didn't reflect your latest comment in that post. Kind of how we looked at Tar's comments about Ether and Erg0 hiding a vieled attack. I suppose you voting erg0 is fine NOW, but i generally suspect people to follow and push their stronger suspicions when the day has started. You made your vote early today (day4) and i think that if you would really be happier lynching incog you would have pursued it directly at the begining of the day. I suppose i should have pushed this point better in context despite how busy i have been, but you are right about me still wanting to lynch erg0 more so for my other reasons.

are all possible scum pairs pending how you would view elderad's attack on incognito and Erg0. Is he distancing from Incognito while forcing a mislynch, or is he bussing and setting up mislynch for tomorrow when the town will have a better view of him and his suspicions for the bussing. And also the possibily that I am not reading correctly into his actions and he is correct about Incog and Erg0. I will think more about him into the next day.

Incog thinks that Erg0 is scum too. How come I'm the corner-stone of this scumhunt whilst Incog is completely ignored?

I have only seen Incog's hammer as being scummy. His other comments possibly answering for Erg0 don't look to bad. Perhaps I look at distancing as a stronger conection then actual helping simply because I don't look at buddying as much as others do in terms of scumhunting and what evedence would be stronger. Perhaps I should go back and change some numbers there since I suspect you more than incognito. Or better review your exchange with him to see who is truly most likly scum.

~~~
I don't really see what is hidden about Mizzy's role anymore. Everyone is tip-toeing around it,

but we all know

, so who are we hiding it from?

I don't know...blind people? I just basically got principles on what all should be right infront of people's eyes and how blatantly things should be said. I think Mizzy should make the decision to say more on her own by herself. We shouldn't push the matter if she doesn't want it pushed.

The bold is me*

[PokerFace]

Are you just asking questions for the sake of it? I'm even trying to create possible lines of inquiry for you to pursue, but you still don't want to have an actual discussion. All I've got from you (and scot) is "I don't believe the claim." Why not, exactly?

It's a miller claim; an ideal claim for scum that invokes a lot of WIFOM. Also, just like with tar, your claim does not erase the fact that you have been scummy in this game.

Or I was just simply unimpressed with your response to my case. It did not change how i feel about you in any way.

Yay I pretty much agree with scotmany on this one. I went back to try and find some more questions for Erg0 and Elderad.

My judgement is probably a little clouded right now, but I'm most suspicious of those who are calling me scum but failing to actually vote. Eldarad, for instance, had no reason not to vote when he posted earlier. I suspect that there are some players who want to keep their grubby fingerprints off the townie wagon.

I find it odd Erg0 would be concerned with Elderad's vote at this point. Did Erg0 mean Incognito? I think incog is just allowing for discussion like me.


Outside of voting me, i don't remember if Erg0 ever addressed this...

Erg0,
your vote was on PokerFace Yesterday too, and there definitely seemed to be an overwhelming consensus Yesterday that PokerFace looked scummy. Why do you think that is?
Don't you find it odd that so many people seemed to completely agree on who the scum was (ie Hascow and PokerFace)?
What do you make of that, and what do you think it says about PokerFace's alignment now that Hascow is confirmed town?

I can guess the answer since he is voting me, but I would have liked a timly and precise reaction to this this earlier.


And I like some of this comment even after Erg0's recent post.

Your response to my question makes no sense to me. The only people who could have known with absolute certainty whether or not Tarhalindur was lying about his claim would be an actual cop who had a guilty on Tar or the scum themselves. How could you possibly go out on a limb to try to draw an NK by making a psychic prediction of Tar's scumminess when, if you really are a miller, you simply didn't have enough information about Tar's alignment to be able to go out on this limb? "Going out on a limb to draw an NK" implies that you knew information as it was happening during real time.

I am about ready to end the day at this point. I got an acting performance going on this Friday and Saturday so I'll be voting Erg0 on thursday night at the latest. You guys can discuss anything else you want by then. Feel free to talk about other suspicions you have or whatever. I'm pretty much ready to end things today. you can add me to your list of people ready to vote Erg0, incognito.

Also if you are still wondering why i am not really making a case on you, incognito, its because I don't see you as my number two or number one suspect now. The exchange you and erg0 have been having lead me to think he is indeed scum and you are unlikly bussing him, since it would be easy to try and defend him and lynch me if you were his scumbuddy. That's how I see it. I'll post again thursday at the latest.

[PokerFace]

Simple answer Mizzy. I thought I'd allow everyone to speak and say what they want. You should remember that I often hold off on voting and hammering for those purposes. In general with my playstyle, I often hold off on voting and hammering when in mini or newbie games since it takes so many few votes to lynch, when compared to all the large games I join. I don't like limiting discussion intentionally with rappid lynches.

Also since there is most likly more than 1 scum left, I don't see a need to speed this along and limit discussion. I admit, and it is rather obvious, that I myself haven't had as much to discuss compared to some other players about and around Erg0's lynch, but I still felt I should give everybody their say. If everyone is done talking I'll gladly hammer tomorrow evening/night like I've been saying. Erg0's last post looks like a false cry for sympathy to me. Later everybody.

[PokerFace]

meh, good point. I guess you really wouldn't know since me playing with you more often still needs to happen.

And no I didn't FoS him or at least I don't remember doing it. I don't even remember if I FoSed Cow. I guess I just don't use FoS that much as other people. Practically no one I play with on IRC or scumchat (In real time) uses FoS that much. Takes too much time and isn't really important since opinions are still stated in words with a rather fast paced enviroment. I guess as long as I state my opinion, I don't really feel the need to FoS with said opinion because I feel as though I've already got my point across.

Do you feel such view of FoS's makes me scummy?

[PokerFace]

I'll answer that for you since I just went back and looked.

Newbie Game 520
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=6924
I FoSed 3 people in that game. (Oprice, Adel, mrthepie)
Only really voted 2 people in the game who were the scum and were lynched days 1 and 2 (mrthepie, Pug)
I voted and lynched pug day 2 and never FoSed him
Only 1 person I FoSed did I end up voting. (mrthepie)
I was town and doc in that game.

Here, I have only FoSed SSK and i did that during day 1

_________________

I have played alot on IRC and scumchat since 520 but there are are still some simularities. Scotmany has seen me play on scumchat. And up until Mizzy's last post I didn't understand her suspicions of me. because this...

Poker hasn't played like I've expected him to. His posts seem fake to me, like he's trying too hard to be a pro-town player and misses the mark just slightly. Some of his wording feels off to me, and this voting so far also leads me to believe he's scum. He likes to not vote a lot, and while I have done the same thing, I have a reason, and I want to know what his reason is.

reminded me of the too townie argument
http://www.mafiascum.net/wiki/index.php ... Too_Townie
and not so much her saying I was going under her radar.

I am glad I am now able to understand what she is thinking and I wish I had asked something that led to learning all this sooner. Anyone else got ideas or things to discuss before a hammer is dropped?

[PokerFace]

Meant to hammer Thursday night like I said but my buds wanted me to go out drinking with them. So I have to hammer now. I'll see you guys Day 5 monday pending Acting Gig, what happens on sunday, and if I get killed overnight. Later

Vote: Erg0

[PokerFace]

SSK voted Erg0 all of day one and yet he said

Okay then quick response to everything.
I find Ergo,Mizzy,Glork,Patrick to be protown. The rest I'm curious about especially Incognito.

Why vote someone if you think their town?

please view post #649 for more problems I have with SSK.

I also think post #723 was Elderad bussing Erg0. Tarhalindur said Scotmany could be cop in his dieing post. When someone votes someone right out of gate with no reasoning, what do you think that means? I didn't pick up on it myself during day 4 but I'm now betting that Scotmany investigated Erg0 night3 and pushed for his lynch during day 4 for that reason and Elderad may have picked up on that.

I'm going to look through the rest of Scotmany's play and see if I can find any more breadcrumbs. If anyone finds some crumbs point them out. Also here is an interesting thought. Tarhalindur fake claimed FBI agent. Scotmany was an FBI Agent. what are chances cop would have that exact name, like how jailed would be exotic dancer and govenor would be bouncer? I am betting Ter guessed the cop would be called FBI Agent, based on what Erg0 may have told him pretaining to the Framer's flavor. I am going to go back and look at how people viewed that name and flavor. Seeing who believed the name aspect and how maybe very telling. I'm going to look at his case on incognito too, but for the momment I am definatly leaning towards Voting Elderad.

@Incognito,

you seem to think I am scum due partly to how I interacted with Tarhalindur. You do realize that, that is one reason Erg0 sited for voting me on day3, correct? You are using reasons known scum had for voting me, in order to vote me yourself?!

@Mizzy,

you believe i hammered Erg0 to look more town. I said I would hammer and did. I did the same to hasdfgas. I keep my promises and hammer who I think is scum when i am convinced they are scum.

@Elderad,

during day 4 you said you saw a incog/Ergo pairing and you also said

Well this is odd. The other day I though that elderad was going to come at me today because he thought there was a conection between me and Tar in post #670 and now he makes a post that refers to me as town.

It happens. Sometimes I change my mind, sometimes I do it to wrong-foot the mafia. In this case, it was a bit of both. I'm pretty happy with your play on Day 1 now that I have analysed it in detail.

You didn't like my play much on Day3. I thought you would vote me then. Do you still hold such views of me after Incog's last post and the close of day 4?

[PokerFace]

Poker:

I had said that I was going to hammer Erg0, too. So why not let me do the dirty work other than to specifically benefit from it?

I said I would hammer cow and did even after giving extra time. How would I profit from this as scum and as town? I do what I say I'm going to do. And i hammer who I think is scum. That's who I am. When I vote/hammer I seek to get who i think is scum lynched. That's all I ever seek to gain. I said I would Hammer Erg0 and did even after giving extra time for me to drink with friends (I originally said I would hammer thursday night and chose to go out drinking instead and hammer early friday morning. Did you ever give a time you would hammer?). I am actually rather surprised you didn't hammer him before me. If you wanted to do it, what were you waiting for? I had already responded to your recent post back then.

Btw, I'm thinking we should mass claim at this point. Does anyone agree or disagree with this?

If Mizzy is down then, I would not be apposed to it. I think I can already guess what everyone else's role is anyway. How shall we establish a claim order?

Random Dice Roll?
Order of who people think is scumiest goes first and so on?
Popcorn Style?
^Elmo would pick who he wants to see claim first here since elmo claimed day1. And the person he picked would claim and pick the next person and so on.

I'll respond to incog's larger posts (831 and 834) later on. I got some deadlines in other games that need attending to before the weekend.

[PokerFace]

Final vote count of Day Four

*Erg0* - 4 (scotmany12, eldarad, Incognito, PokerFace)
PokerFace - 1 (Erg0)

Not Voting - 2 (Mizzy, Elmo)

With 7 alive, it takes 4 to lynch.

Lynch scene coming soon.

Um I don't believe you were voting someone else during day 4.

If you wanted to hammer Erg0 before me you could have given a time before thursday and done it, or you could have done it while I was out drinking. I hammered friday morning about and hour or so before the 10am deadline. I did not hammer with alot of time before deadline so you could have hammered Erg0. Its not like I was in a rush to hammer on thursday morning when discussion had pretty much silenced. I made both post 216 and 217. Look how much time is in between them. I was in no hurry.

I asked you if I (As scum and as town) gained anything from hammering cow. I submit that I gave them both the same treatment about voting. I gave a time and followed through. I did not play favorites and thats because I saw each of them as having an equal chance at being scum, just at different times.

And in case you can't remember I was in no danger of being lynched over Cow on day 3.

Final vote count of Day Three

*hasdgfas* - 5 (scotmany12, Incognito, Ether, eldarad, PokerFace)
PokerFace - 3 (Elmo, Erg0, Mizzy)
eldarad - 1 (hasdgfas)

Not Voting - 0

With 9 alive, it takes 5 to lynch.

Lynch scene to be added.

I needed 2 votes and cow didn't say he found me suspicious. Only Elderad said I was suspicious back then and he thought Cow was more suspicious so he wasn't changing his vote that day.

Did I need to Hammer Erg0 and Cow? No I did not, but I still did because I follow my word and do what I say I am going to do.

<<Has not read incogs 831 and 834 yet. 831 looks big and so I amn saving that for when I have alot of time like the weekend.

[PokerFace]

Its ok I'll forgive you, but it should be noted that I don't believe you voted me at all Day 4. Here are all the day 4 vote counts

31st vote count

Erg0 - 2 (scotmany12, eldarad)

Not Voting - 5 (PokerFace, Mizzy, Incognito, Erg0, Elmo)

With 7 alive, it takes 4 to lynch.

Current deadline: August 1st, 10:00 AM EST

32nd vote count

Erg0 - 2 (scotmany12, eldarad)
PokerFace - 1 (Erg0)

Not Voting - 4 (PokerFace, Mizzy, Incognito, Elmo)

With 7 alive, it takes 4 to lynch.

Current deadline: August 1st, 10:00 AM EST

33rd vote count

Erg0 - 3 (scotmany12, eldarad, Incognito)
PokerFace - 1 (Erg0)

Not Voting - 3 (PokerFace, Mizzy, Elmo)

With 7 alive, it takes 4 to lynch.

Current deadline: August 1st, 10:00 AM EST

Final vote count of Day Four

*Erg0* - 4 (scotmany12, eldarad, Incognito, PokerFace)
PokerFace - 1 (Erg0)

Not Voting - 2 (Mizzy, Elmo)

With 7 alive, it takes 4 to lynch.

Lynch scene coming soon.

You must be thinking back to day 3 when you voted me with Erg0 and Elmo. Elmo started that wagon on me and I believe Erg0 fueled it with intentions to exploit Elmos supicions of me and thus setup a future miss lynch. Since Tar's push on Elmo, elmo has been seen as obv townie, so fueling an obv townies supicions (despite how few reasons the obv townie gives) is a strategy scum would seek to exploit.

<<signing off for now. I need to stop posting while at work.

[PokerFace]

EBWOP:
Since Tar's push on Elmo

and Tar's card flip of scum

, Elmo has been seen as obv townie, so fueling an obv townies supicions (despite how few reasons the obv townie gives) is a strategy scum would seek to exploit.

[PokerFace]

Ok I just drudged through incognito's big post. The following post of my own is long as Hell. Feel free to gouge your eyes out with a spoon or throw rocks in a killing spree whenever you want.

I think night 1 Scotmany investigated one of three people.
Cow, Tar, (Or someone he himself didn't suspect much, he basically checked someone he could not read which is often good cop play)
This make sence with his early day 2 comments and because at the end of day 2 Glork said he would Jail scotmany.

Scotmany is the real Cop, and got a Guilty on me last night (seriously, why didn't everyone pick up on this about 5 pages ago?). I'd try to code this one if I wasn't 95% sure that Glork had already picked up on it.
Glork is obvious.
Finally - buddies? You know that player who I mentioned in the same parenthetical statement as I mentioned Glork in last night (yeah, that player)? That player's probably the bouncer.

Actually, I would only have given Scot about a 40% chance of being a Cop. And even then, there'd be nothing to say he had a guilty on you (he'd know you were likely scum by the simple fact that you have claimed to be a cop, and your flavor was shit -- not by any investigation result).

But thank you for confirming that Scot is protown. I will be protecting him tonight.

Now i don't know with absolute certainty that he did jail scotmany, perhaps Glork was using WIFOM on the scum, but because I believe a person of Glork's character wouldn't lie like that to the rest of the town even for that purpose. Because of this post and how Scotmany's opinions of Tar were slightly open minded here

Why would you claim so soon tar? You didn't even try to defend yourself...Yes, you are at l-2, but only about half of the players even checked the thread. Claim seems a bit premature...I have my doubts. Sanity confirmed?

This makes me think Scotmany checked Cow night 1 and wanted to use what he knew about his own flavor (perhaps sane confirmed cop) in order to be certain lynching Tar was the best idea. And i think Scot held off on voting Cow out of the gate day 2 to conseal his role. When Tar exposed Scot as the cop, there was no point in concealing things Day 3, so thats why he went on to openly vote those he investigated. (Cow and Ergo). After all whether there is a framer or not. Real scum will still be read to a cop as scum. You want to pass up a scum lynch?

(Or someone he himself didn't suspect much, he basically checked someone he could not read which is often good cop play)

I leave this as a possibility because of the following variables. Scot voted Erg0 the exact way he voted Cow, reasonlessly. He voted them in the same manor and if he did so quickly deduce that there was framer after Cow's card flip, then I don't think he would be so bent on voting Erg0 like that. I think he would have held something back, or not been so straightforward by giving the reasonless vote of certainty. Unless Scott was banking on WIFOM hiding his copness, I doubt he would be so bold. If this possibility is the really true one, then he voted Cow for these reasons and I am not sure why he didn't include them earlier.

You never took a stand on either Glork or Tar. As Incog says, it just seems like you were waiting to see which wagon grew. Also, now that tar is confirmed as scum, I felt like he was trying to deflect attention away from the wagon on you by trying to get elmo lynched.

I also leave the under the radar player as a possibility because Scotmany never voiced opinion's about me despite calling what Erg0's vote a throw away vote.

Last day, I wasn't thrilled with his dead-scum analysis (i didn't really see it as helpful) and him basically ignoring the cow wagon. Instead he places a vote on PF, a throw away vote. Despite calling cow scummy, he knew that he was going to come up town, so he stayed off the wagon.

But I haven't found any day 1 precursers that would lead me to believe Scot investigated me yet, so I doubt this is the case. And i personally hate it when cops investigate me. They spent their skill on something I already know. I should have played better as town or as scum and so I hate seeing cops investigate me no matter what faction I'm in. I don't think Scot ever investigated you, incog since Scotmany thought your Tar hammer was suspicious. If he got an innocent he didn't tell us about, it was certainly not on someone he later had suspicions on. Which would leave (Me, Ether, Elmo, Patrick). He suspected Mizzy day 3 until mizzy gave that response to me at the end of day 3. You can go back to the end of that day to get more on that.

_________________

@Incognito,

you seem to think I am scum due partly to how I interacted with Tarhalindur. You do realize that, that is one reason Erg0 sited for voting me on day3, correct? You are using reasons known scum had for voting me, in order to vote me yourself?!

Yes, I do realize that, but I don't see why that's problematic. Is it not plausible for scum to attempt to bus one of his buddies?

Basically, here's where I'm at right now:

• Elmo is town. Both Erg0-scum
  and
  Tarhalindur-scum pushed a D1 wagon on him when a wagon on hasdgfas-town was readily available for them to pounce on.
  
  
• Mizzy is town. Obv.

I agree with you on Elmo and Mizzy being town BUT you cannot forget that Me and Patrick were also on Elmo's wagon. If you believe I am scum, then you must now also be willing to believe that all 3 scum were willing to be on the same day one wagon with Patrick at deadline. A wagon that would therefore be 3/4's scum driven and would ineventably end in a townie mislynch with the assumption Elmo is town.
(Talk about being on a suicidal scum fail boat!)
http://failblog.org/tag/failboat/

As far as why I see that as problematic and could not possibly be Erg0 bussing me consider the following, from the mafiascum wiki:

Bussing

is the act of distancing yourself from your partners, usually by helping to lynch them. The term comes from the phrase "to throw under a bus", i.e. sacrificing them to gain credibility.

It is almost always done by Mafia, and is a common suspicion when someone is suddenly lynched for what seem like minor or spurious reasons, and yet turns out to be Scum.

http://www.mafiascum.net/wiki/index.php?title=Bus

Now look at the second paragraph there incognito, and ask yourself when is the best time to bus and or distance yourself from a scum buddy? The best time to do that is when your scum buddy is facing a lynch. Erg0 had an "amazing epiphany" [/end sarcasm] and then bussed Tar because:
1) The tide had shifted in a lynch Tar fashion, meaning there was a signifcant amount of people that would undoubtably succeed in lynching Tar.
2) He wanted to be far from Tar (provide distance) with the bus.

Now like I just said to Mizzy. I was in no danger of being lynched on day 3. So point one above here does not exist. There was no significant tide coming toward me that would succed in my lynch. There were not further, two more, players willing to vote me over Cow. Now without the first point, you can not say the second point here even exists. And why is that? Because bussing means you want and there will be a lynch. Since there wasn't going to be a lynch the distance and therefore point 2 is also null in my opinion. So therefore Erg0 could not have believied or been following a position that would bus a scum buddy. And if he is not attacking a scum buddy, then what is he attacking? a member of the town.

Erg0 was not in danger of getting lynched day three either. Cow getting lynch was a win win situation from the start of the day. So setting up the next's days mislynch sounds good in that perspective too. After All incognito you previously noted How Erg0's dead scum analysis flung suspicion everywhere to Mizzy, to Elmo, he didn't want to confirm anybody. I may later look at that and see if he confirmed Elderad.

_________________

EBWOP:
Since Tar's push on Elmo

and Tar's card flip of scum

, Elmo has been seen as obv townie, so fueling an obv townies supicions (despite how few reasons the obv townie gives) is a strategy scum would seek to exploit.

I re-state that what I think Erg0 a was doing was setting me up for a mislynch for the next day. and i am more certain of that since he turned up Framer. Scotmany had a good chance of being cop and Erg0 was a "Framer". It doesn't take a brain sourgen to guess what I'm implying here.
**Big Post Intermission**
I'm willing to bet my left foot, that Erg0 "Framed" me night 3 and had planned to use that and the momentum he generated on me day 3 to get me lynched Day 4. And I have more reasons that support this.

Disclaimer: I reconize some of the following is WIFOM, But since I firmly see the poison in the other glass, I will still list it.

Incog do you ever leave a cop alive as scum? Cop's are only left alive by scum for the following reasons
1) Scum can block or trick the cop (Framer-Erg0)*
2) There is a protector that will obviously protect them (Jailer-Glork)*
3) They plan on getting the cop lynched later on. (Would a cop that got 2 people mislynched Cow and Me be lynchable in end game? YES)*

Why else would they kill Ether who was someone bent on lynching Erg0 before me?

I still prefer a Cowlynch over a PFlynch. I haven't the slightest idea where Mizzy got her read on Erg0 from.

Erg0, what led you to drop the counterwagon Tar pushed for hasdgfas's sake on Day 1 and put him on par with Eldarad

and Mizzy in your final summary?

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see how much scum could gain from a scenario entailing Cows, Mine, and maybe even Scott's mislynch
(Sorry no farcical Monty Python link here.)

_________________

I disagree with your view of Elderad. I have already said why if you want to look back. I doubt elderad would want to be the exact vote after his scum Buddy Erg0, on the Tar wagon. Too many chefs spoil the dish.

Just look at what happened to hasdgfas. In fact after hasdgfas came up town, I was at first paranoid that maybe scotmany wasn't who I thought he was (hence, I didn't vote for Erg0 right away at the start of Day 4) and then I figured that maybe scot really was the cop after all but the scum might have a Framer and that's why hasdgfas flipped as town even though he was likely investigated by scot as guilty.

After Erg0 claimed Miller, I pretty much knew scot had to be the cop, and I knew Erg0 was lying since I thought it very unlikely that a mini-normal set-up would have

two

roles (a miller and a framer) to mess up cop investigations. That would seem insanely imbalanced against town.

Erg0 probably would have been better off claiming Vanilla haha.

Hey wait a second... Look at what I bolded there. If you are saying you thought/knew? there was a framer

and a miller?

then either..
A) You just made a slip implying you knew of a framer (that would make you scum)
B) You must have actually meant to say Jail Keeper
C) I am reading wrongly.

Though I still agree with you on some aspects of why Scot lived so long. your heavy suspicions of Tar day 1, and a possible Erg0 slip make me think you are town and its either B or C.

Perhaps speculation is unwanted but I think our remaining scum is just a goon. And why? Its because I am italian, and what is a Mafia Capo?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caporegime
It is a highranking mafioso that

heads

a of group of

soldiers

(Tar's role) and has major

social status and influence

in the organization (Organization would be the Strip joint itself).
If Erg0 was the Head then he is the most powerful and an influencial person, which would make sence as a framer.

That claim order looks fine to me. If everyone else is willing to agree with it, I'll claim in my next post and also give more of my case on Elderad then. Later

[PokerFace]

I would also apreciate Elderad addressing the remarks I made in post #829. later all.

[PokerFace]

Oh ok, I did misunderstand you then. That means Scot investigated Erg0 night 3, Cow night 2, and one of (Me, Ether, Elmo, Patrick) night 1. I still don't think he investigated Tar because of haw they kept an open mind. Tar claimed the same role name as Scot really had. and I am betting he used some info from the framer's flavor to guess the cop character would be called an FBI agent.

Scot was big on Tar's flavor being BS day 2 after all, so testing the flavor and getting Tar lynched with that in mind makes sence to me so I'm reluctant to believe Scot checked Tar night 1. See you guys some time next week i got a co-workers wedding to go to in a little bit. and i'll be busy with other games i need to catch up in on sunday and monday.

[PokerFace]

I freed some time up faster than I expected. This is one thing I wanted you to adress Elderad.

@Elderad,

during day 4 you said you saw a incog/Ergo pairing and you also said

Well this is odd. The other day I though that elderad was going to come at me today because he thought there was a conection between me and Tar in post #670 and now he makes a post that refers to me as town.

It happens. Sometimes I change my mind, sometimes I do it to wrong-foot the mafia. In this case, it was a bit of both. I'm pretty happy with your play on Day 1 now that I have analysed it in detail.

You didn't like my play much on Day3. I thought you would vote me then. Do you still hold such views of me after Incog's last post and the close of day 4?

If you still think I am town why am I second choice by default? you kinda attack me for that last post when it was a defence from incognito. What changed your mind? Incognito posting aprove of me getting lynched. Changing your opinion to go with the flow are you Elderad? Explain further why you thought i was town yesterday and why I would be a default lynch?

@incognito,

What did you think about the rest of my big post. Did you like my responses? Do you still believe there was 3 scum willing to push lynch on Elmo practically all on there own, on day 1? Do you ever push day 1 lynches with your entire scum group?

Your last post is good incog. That statement is partially why I lean away from suspecting you. I am willing to consider some people like elmo and mizzy as confirmed town unlike Erg0 and elderad who pursued Mizzy when Either suggested re-thinking things. Cow was after mizzy too then so I wonder if elderad was pushing on mizzy in light of what cow was saying then.

I think Elderad partially wants to prepare to take on incognito now Ahead of day6 in hopes he can get support from me before I'm lynched. look at him lurk and not bring his case on incognito up again while I'm threaten before a lynch. A lynch on someone he think/thought was town. You want to allow people to lynch someone you believed was town? Did something change about your view of me because of other today Elderad?

Here is the bulk of my entire case on SSK/elderad

~~~
PokerFace, do you have anything based on

this game

that makes you believe I am scum?
Do you have any reason to believe that MafiaSSK's assertion that his lurking helps him to find scum (because scum tend to try to lynch lurkers more than townies do) was false? Why or why not?

~~~

The only thing I have on you would be that you did not really consider the possibility that Tar was scum. I began to change my mind on Glork when I came to the conclusion below.

A question to those who have issues with my claim... Given that I basically stated that I was a dancing girl in my confirmation post, which do you find more likely:
A) I am a scum dancing girl; or
B) I am not a dancing girl but chose to cement the flavor of my role/claim before the game even began?.

This is a very good question. I was indeed previously considering him being a scum dancing girl, but there are some problems with considering that. The scum are the Moretti's right? And since they are a mob group associated with the club, it is unlikly that all of them would be dancers. And if they aren't all dancers and since scum in every game can always talk during pregame, I'm fairly certain Glork scum dancing girl would have realized his mistake of all players not being dancers alot sooner.

You weren't as tunnel visioned on Glork as Incognito was, but I never got the impression that you were keeping an open mind. Aside from that I haven't really got much on you alone.

And yes I think SSK's assumption is false for a few reasons.
1) Glork and Patrick made comments about MafiaSSK's lurkings away from deadlines and the two of them were both town. They didn't greatly push a lynch on Mafiassk, but they did notice and go after him at times outside of deadlines. Which proves town players can also go after him, not just scum will go after him.
2) "Paraphaseing" SSK said the lurking allows him to deduce more easily who is scum based on those that attack him. He only briefly mentioned Glork could be scum based on Glork's comments on MafiaSSK. Did MafiaSSK ever mention anyone else as being scum for commenting on him?

No.

And did other players notice and comment on is lurking outside of deadlines?

Yes

. I did, Cow did, Mizzy did, etc and yet he never said if he thought any of us were scum. Cow even voted and wanted to lynch him and SSK still didn't really say he thought cow was scum. SSK only responded when we asked questions and did not provide any aditional individual insight later on as to wether our attacks/comments made us scum. I think the only reason he truly commented on Glork was so that Glork would stop pressuring him and thus he could go back to lurking. Which he did go back to lurking.

For these reasons I think all his lurking was really doing, was an attempt to go unnoticed completly. I don't think it was a strategy bent on catching scum that noticed his lurking/tried to get him lynched outside deadlines. If his strategy was truly designed to do that, he would have voted and attacked people like me, hasdfgas, mizzy etc and tried to get us lynched for being scummy. He would not have gone just briefly after Glork alone.

Ok sorry for my relative absence here in general. I understand some of what Mizzy was trying to say, despite part of it being incorrect given context of some sentences. The point I was making with elderad earlier is simular to that.

But there are somethings I want to know first.

In truth, there's not a lot from this

, except the quick Tar hammer.
The Elmo pressure-vote does look like opportunism, although he pulls out prior to deadline (but then, if I'm right, both Day 1 wagons were on townies. So Incog is just making sure he does not have townie blood on his hands)

I would like to lynch Incognito Today

. However, since I'm now pretty confident of an Incog-Erg0 scumteam I'm happy to vote

vote Erg0

because it is the current live bandwagon.

You said there wasn't alot on incognito and yet you would like to lynch him today. In general there is alot more analysis in your last post pretaining to Erg0 being scum than incognito, but those last words just seem so out of place. Is there some other reason you would prefer to lynch incognito today? And if so why aren't you going to try and start a wagon on him this early on day 4?

...

You said there wasn't alot on incognito and yet you would like to lynch him today. In general there is alot more analysis in your last post pretaining to Erg0 being scum than incognito, but those last words just seem so out of place. Is there some other reason you would prefer to lynch incognito today? And if so why aren't you going to try and start a wagon on him this early on day 4?

The "not a lot" was from the vote analysis, that I did as a separate exercise after looking at the Day 1 wagon. There was enough from the wagon analysis for me to be happier voting Incog. But I'll take an Erg0 lynch as well.

Well I'm still rather puzzled as the why you would be happier and not try to start a wagon there first. I guess I just want to see what all you think of incognito since your words back there sounded off in accordance with the other aspects of that post. If you want to elaborate further on why you think he's scum I'd apreciate it.

If you believe Incognito is more likly scum after further analysis you should be voting for and pushing a wagon on him. You should be trying to convince others of such an opinion

while driving the wagon directly.

There has been more than enough time for you to do that since you mentioned those coments earlier. You shouldn't be voting for Erg0 unless you are certain he is scum, ie your biggest suspect. It feels like you are just settling for another lynch, and I don't think your reasons are good enough to do that. I am also not sure Mizzy should claim, I think it may be better to just drop that matter and have her keep anything that may exist hidden.

Now don't get me wrong. I still think Erg0 is scum. he is my top suspect and I see a good conection of him to tarhalindur in terms of possible distancing.

Pretty sure he is scum. His interaction with tar early day 1 (tar votes for him, while attacking ether for a "veiled attack on ergo"), tar was trying to distance here. Ergo then attempts to distance with tar during day 2. He places a nonchalant vote on tar for reasons i still don't understand. I had problems with him clearing Glork because of his day 1 actions. Regardless of how he acts, I believe Glork to be a magnet for night actions on night 1 simply do to his reputation, and as pf says, everyone makes mistakes. So I think ergo was just looking for a reason to vote for tar over glork.

Yesterday my suspects were Cow, Elderad, Incognito and Erg0. I am still very confident that the remaining scum(s) are among the three of them that are still alive. My current scum list would be:

1) Erg0-see what i said yesterday combined with what i've seen today.
2a) Elderad-see what I say here since his attack on Erg0 seems dispearsed
2b) Incognito-basically just the hammer on Tar. His answering for Erg0 may be telling as well
*Huge gap*
3+) Mizzy, Scot, Elmo - I don't think they are scum. I got no strong case telling me otherwise

I think
Tar, Erg0, Elder
Tar, Erg0, Incog
Tar, Elder, Incog
are all possible scum pairs pending how you would view elderad's attack on incognito and Erg0. Is he distancing from Incognito while forcing a mislynch, or is he bussing and setting up mislynch for tomorrow when the town will have a better view of him and his suspicions for the bussing. And also the possibily that I am not reading correctly into his actions and he is correct about Incog and Erg0. I will think more about him into the next day. I have considered Erg0's attacks on me late yesterday as premptivly setting up a mislynch for the next day.

Erg0 I suggest you claim now since I'm ready to lynch you.

PF, I think Erg0 and Incog are scum. It does not matter which one we lynch first. So I'll take the one has the most support since we need a majority to lynch.

You shouldn't be voting for Erg0 unless you are certain he is scum, ie your biggest suspect. It feels like you are just settling for another lynch, and I don't think your reasons are good enough to do that.

You say this like it is a fact, when it is only your opinion. Who are you to tell me how I should use my vote?
As it is, I'm using my vote to help lynch someone that I believe to be scum. It also someone that you believe to be scum. So what's your problem?

Well I find it odd that your vote didn't reflect your latest comment in that post. Kind of how we looked at Tar's comments about Ether and Erg0 hiding a vieled attack. I suppose you voting erg0 is fine NOW, but i generally suspect people to follow and push their stronger suspicions when the day has started. You made your vote early today (day4) and i think that if you would really be happier lynching incog you would have pursued it directly at the begining of the day. I suppose i should have pushed this point better in context despite how busy i have been, but you are right about me still wanting to lynch erg0 more so for my other reasons.

are all possible scum pairs pending how you would view elderad's attack on incognito and Erg0. Is he distancing from Incognito while forcing a mislynch, or is he bussing and setting up mislynch for tomorrow when the town will have a better view of him and his suspicions for the bussing. And also the possibily that I am not reading correctly into his actions and he is correct about Incog and Erg0. I will think more about him into the next day.

Incog thinks that Erg0 is scum too. How come I'm the corner-stone of this scumhunt whilst Incog is completely ignored?

I have only seen Incog's hammer as being scummy. His other comments possibly answering for Erg0 don't look to bad. Perhaps I look at distancing as a stronger conection then actual helping simply because I don't look at buddying as much as others do in terms of scumhunting and what evedence would be stronger. Perhaps I should go back and change some numbers there since I suspect you more than incognito. Or better review your exchange with him to see who is truly most likly scum.

~~~
I don't really see what is hidden about Mizzy's role anymore. Everyone is tip-toeing around it,

but we all know

, so who are we hiding it from?

I don't know...blind people? I just basically got principles on what all should be right infront of people's eyes and how blatantly things should be said. I think Mizzy should make the decision to say more on her own by herself. We shouldn't push the matter if she doesn't want it pushed.

The bold is me*

@Elderad,

are you sure you got nothing more to respond to with what I'm saying? You didn't respond to 1st and third ones here imediatly if you want to go back and look at the numbers mentioned. Did you lurk and think i would never bring it back up? Do you aprove of massclaim?

I sometimes wait for a unanimous aproval before massclaim. Like when I want to see elderad's reaction to it since he has not given one yet. I will claim in my next post regardless of his aproval since we do have a majority. I don't need to see Elmo's reaction since he already claimed day1 and I don't suspect him.

Vote: Elderad

[PokerFace]

Elderad I already explained why I believe SSK was not being truthful about his lurker strategy and therefore insincere about his comments.

There's nothing more I can say on #649 that I haven't already said.
You may think MafiaSSK is wrong with his lurking strategy, but the question is "was he sincere?" You're the one who was doing all the meta-gaming.

If he was analyzing all those that attacked them and useing that to later conveyed his views of us he would have later on said what he thought of peoplem like mizzy noticing his lurking during the middle of day2. He would have given and opinion. Because the stragey was bull he could not have been applying fully and thus could not have been sincere about his view of Glork. The only time he has used that same strategy is when he has been scum. He said in our game this was his first time trying it and he said in that game he link that he was trying it, and he was scum in that game. So I again submit that he said those statements so glork would get off his back and he could go back to lurking.

Tell me Elderad

, can you possibly explain why SSK would vote someone all during day 1 when he is quoted as saying Erg0 is town? Is there a goal or reason behind it? He certainly didn't forget his vote was there since the question was brought up more than once. I think that stament where he called those people town is total BS. He was just imitating what others were doing.

Early Protown Indicators: Erg0, Ether, Glork, Mizzy

Unvote, Vote: PokerFace

Not long after...

Okay then quick response to everything.
I find Ergo,Mizzy,Glork,Patrick to be protown. The rest I'm curious about especially Incognito.

_________________

~~~
PokerFace, do you have anything based on

this game

that makes you believe I am scum?
Do you have any reason to believe that MafiaSSK's assertion that his lurking helps him to find scum (because scum tend to try to lynch lurkers more than townies do) was false? Why or why not?

~~~

The only thing I have on you would be that you did not really consider the possibility that Tar was scum. I began to change my mind on Glork when I came to the conclusion below.

A question to those who have issues with my claim... Given that I basically stated that I was a dancing girl in my confirmation post, which do you find more likely:
A) I am a scum dancing girl; or
B) I am not a dancing girl but chose to cement the flavor of my role/claim before the game even began?.

This is a very good question. I was indeed previously considering him being a scum dancing girl, but there are some problems with considering that. The scum are the Moretti's right? And since they are a mob group associated with the club, it is unlikly that all of them would be dancers. And if they aren't all dancers and since scum in every game can always talk during pregame, I'm fairly certain Glork scum dancing girl would have realized his mistake of all players not being dancers alot sooner.

You weren't as tunnel visioned on Glork as Incognito was, but I never got the impression that you were keeping an open mind. Aside from that I haven't really got much on you alone.

And yes I think SSK's assumption is false for a few reasons.
1) Glork and Patrick made comments about MafiaSSK's lurkings away from deadlines and the two of them were both town. They didn't greatly push a lynch on Mafiassk, but they did notice and go after him at times outside of deadlines. Which proves town players can also go after him, not just scum will go after him.
2) "Paraphaseing" SSK said the lurking allows him to deduce more easily who is scum based on those that attack him. He only briefly mentioned Glork could be scum based on Glork's comments on MafiaSSK. Did MafiaSSK ever mention anyone else as being scum for commenting on him?

No.

And did other players notice and comment on is lurking outside of deadlines?

Yes

. I did, Cow did, Mizzy did, etc and yet he never said if he thought any of us were scum. Cow even voted and wanted to lynch him and SSK still didn't really say he thought cow was scum. SSK only responded when we asked questions and did not provide any aditional individual insight later on as to wether our attacks/comments made us scum. I think the only reason he truly commented on Glork was so that Glork would stop pressuring him and thus he could go back to lurking. Which he did go back to lurking.

For these reasons I think all his lurking was really doing, was an attempt to go unnoticed completly. I don't think it was a strategy bent on catching scum that noticed his lurking/tried to get him lynched outside deadlines. If his strategy was truly designed to do that, he would have voted and attacked people like me, hasdfgas, mizzy etc and tried to get us lynched for being scummy. He would not have gone just briefly after Glork alone.

Have you ever voted someone for pressure and told them to scum hunt. They then scumhunt. You unvote them. Then they do not continue to scumhunt. Thats pretty much what SSK was doing. He was responding only responding to glork to get glork off his back. He was only doing it to Glork and the only reason he would just do it to Glork and not also to me, or Mizzy, or cow is because only Glork would not lighten up. Even Mizzy unvoted him. SSK had no intention of truly using such a strategy to continually evaluate the other players in order to find scum. I don't think he was ever sincere for he was never really trying to get reads or suspicions with the strategy because he did not apply the strategy to people like me, cow, or Mizzy.

~Responding to PF's large post~

I agree with you on Elmo and Mizzy being town BUT you cannot forget that Me and Patrick were also on Elmo's wagon. If you believe I am scum, then you must now also be willing to believe that all 3 scum were willing to be on the same day one wagon with Patrick at deadline. A wagon that would therefore be 3/4's scum driven and would ineventably end in a townie mislynch with the assumption Elmo is town.
(Talk about being on a suicidal scum fail boat!)
http://failblog.org/tag/failboat/

This defense hinges completely on WIFOM though. I agree with you that an entire scum grouping

typically

will not all pounce on the same player at the same time, but it's not a possibility that can be completely ruled out. I just modded a Mini Normal where the Day 1 lynch had all three (3) members of the scum team (Oman, Gamma, and Goatrevolt) on the Syrial-town wagon and that very same scum team went on to win the game. Mind you, my deadline lynch rules were different from this OGML-mod game but nevertheless, it still happened. And if Elmo really is town, then the choice to NK Patrick could have been used for this very purpose - to attempt to "clear" one of the scums as town through a WIFOM defense like you are using right now.

I did not mention Patrick's death incognito. If Pat was alive, you'd still be calling him town and me scum. I fail to see what that has to do with the arguement. Regardless of wether he is alive or dead you must still ask yourself the same question. WIFOM or not you must ask yourself the same question. (I hate when people scream WIFOM and still don't say which way they lean or think. You can't just disregard something because it is WIFOM. That fact or rather element still exists).

If you think I am scum, then you must believe Me, Tar and Erg0 were willing to push a wagon on Elmo practically all by ourselves on day 1 with the deadlines rules and everything. Do you believe it Incognito, yes or No? And if that's what you believe, then what all did we have to gain from such a wagon? If scum is going to do something they must have a purpose or goal in mind worth earning. What goal would we we have as apposed to sitting back and allowing another claimed vanilla(cow) to be lynched on day 1 instead?

I have already explained what Erg0 could gain from pushing a lynch on me who I know is town. And you are certainly following through with it just as Erg0 wanted the town to do even after his death. What would Erg0 gain from lynching me "IF I was scum with him" day3 or 4? Well he would be all alone by himself. I assume he would loose his framing skill, since all games I ever played had each mafia member only able to do one action a night which would mean he couldn't frame and kill someone anymore on the same night. And Erg0 would gain possible credibility from pushing my lynch. Would that give Erg0 enough credibity to survive days 4-6 all by himself with the players he'd be against and the roles they may have?

It's interesting that in your last post you accused me of lurking. That's the first time you've done that - and it was in response to me addressing your "MafiaSSK as lurker scum" theory.

I already explained why I went with an Erg0 lynch rather than a Incog lynch.
I felt that Erg0 and Incog were both scum and that the best chance of lynching one of the people I believed to be scum was to vote for Erg0. Your problem with that seems to be that you just don't like it. I can't help that.

It was niot meant to be conveyed as just a response for about SSK. The point I'm trying to make is that you are not fully pushing for incognito's lynch right now. By saying you want to lynch incognito without giving a case you are just fruitless preparing and pushing a lynch that can't go through today. If you were town and truly believed incognito to be scum, then there would be no second choice by default. You would be out strongly pushing for incognito's lynch instead of sitting on the sidelines like you are now. that's the point i'm trying to make. Lynching wrongly means another townie dies overnight and we go to lylo. If you are town you don't want that to happen. You never want to settle for second best. You want the scum gone as soon as possible and will not settle for someone else's death. The only people that can settle for second best, can settle for any other lynch, is scum. If you are fine with me getting lynched over your biggest suspect then your views of who is scum are not genuine and therefore you are scum. There is no doubt in my mind.

I thought about lying about my claim and seeing if you would still want to go through with it Elderad. Seeing whether you would be willing to do things like "hammer me" or sit on the sidelines. Seeing whether you'd follow through or just allow my lynch. At the moment that is still something I'd like know. After all, what have I to gain as scum? Nothing since you'd just lynch me tomorrow and I'd still be a dead loser. If I am to be lynched today I want Elderad to be certain such a thing is the best thing and I'd prefer he was the one to hammer me.

<<Vanilla townie

[PokerFace]

EBWOP: To better convey how it happened

Tell me Elderad

, can you possibly explain why SSK would vote someone all during day 1 when he is quoted as saying Erg0 is town? Is there a goal or reason behind it? He certainly didn't forget his vote was there since the question was brought up more than once. I think that stament where he called those people town is total BS. He was just imitating what others were doing.

Early Protown Indicators: Erg0, Ether, Glork, Mizzy

Unvote, Vote: PokerFace

Not long after this post. SSK made

Okay then quick response to everything.
I find Ergo,Mizzy,Glork,Patrick to be protown. The rest I'm curious about especially Incognito.

_________________

Elderad should probably claim aswell so we can hurry things down the line so that everbody claims.

Also

@Mizzy,

What do you think of my responces to your earlier comments? What do you think of the comments I have given Elderad and Incognito?

@Elmo,

What's elmo. Still reading or are you just thinking about what has been going on? Anything you want to say?

[PokerFace]

Well I <3 you too Mizzy no matter how wrong I know you are. You are the last one to claim Mizzy. You are the Bouncer, correct?

And Incognito, you have also listened and stated you truthfully genuinely believe I am scum despite what may be entailed in believing I am scum. Incog you previously said you saw me as scum by processes of elimination. Aside from that, is there anything else you want to bring up towards me, anything else you want to use to help your case or have me defend against? Is there something scummy you have seen me done independent of your deduction process? Mizzy earlier brought up some things about how I vote and Fos. Did you get the same impressions she was getting or anything like that?

At least you and Mizzy are listening to what I am trying to say and you are willing to keep a mind open to the points i'm getting at.

Feelings for you aside, I have to admit that I do find it odd that eldarad hasn't really laid down a case against me or fully explained why he thinks I'm scum

or

even voted for me yet. He's just repeated the same thing over and over again: "Incog is scum. Incog is scum." as if parrot cries will suddenly make it a reality. The "case" that he keeps citing as his explanation seemed more like an attack on Erg0 coupled with a piggyback argument against me using phrases like "opportunistic vote" and "wiping hands of town blood", which are very strong misrepresentations of my actions. With 135 game-related posts, it's not like I have an absence of content to build a case on if he truly believes I'm scum.

This is basically some of what I have been trying to get across.

PokerFace, whilst I share MafiaSSK's role PM, I am not privy to how his thought process works, nor do I share his playstyle preferences. If you wanted to know why MafiaSSK voted the way he did on Day 1 you should have asked him at the time.
Why wait until now to bring it up? How do you expect me to answer for MafiaSSK in the way you require?

I asked SSK this a bunch of times during days 1 and 2. feel free to look back at my posts and see that I did indeed do that. SSK lurked and never answered. And so if you know him and therefore yourself both to be town, I ask if you can think of any reason "any" townie would ever vote someone they think is town for an entire day. Can you think of any reason?

Also SSK's playstyle is related to his alignment which in turn is related to yours. He has only used this style in this game and one other he says. And he was scum in the other game. Scum in other game where he used this style gives good chance he is scum trying to use that lurking style to protect himself here. Do the math I can't believe you don't see what I'm getting at there. You can't ignore stuff from someone a replacement replaced. Do you expect to get a clean slate Elderad?

Also I brought up you lurking as a means of saying you are not "activly" pushing a lynch on incognito. I suppose saying you are lurking was not the best choice a words. Nevertheless you are not even voting incognito. Or trying to make Elmo, Mizzy or anyone else think Incognito is scum, during this day. Do Mizzy, Elmo, and myself think Incognito is scum? Nope, and thats because you have not convinced us yet. Incognito's overall play has made us think he is town. You are defending yourself from my remarks and not spending time actually trying to get incognito lynched during this day. That's what I am saying and refering to. You are not activly pushing incognito's lynch today and you weren't doing it well enough yesterday either. You didn't vote him and I don't believe you successfully made him look like scum to anyone.

If I am lynched today I would like Elderad to hammer me. I want him to be the last vote on my wagon. You should be able to guess why I'm saying this unless you are really dence. I practically forshadowed it afterall. Did I not word it well enough?

[PokerFace]

Now that I think about it, I actually have a couple of questions.

As bouncer (govenor) you can pardon any player from any lynch. If you wanted you could pardon another someone else from a lynch, like say you could pardon incognito if he were lynched today. You can do this at twighlight. After that player has been pardoned once, he can not be pardoned again (you can't pardon Elmo again.) You also can not pardon yourself. Is this all True or False? Basically did I misinterpret anything?

[PokerFace]

If we're looking for slips, I think post 27 is something of a slip on Incog's part. Or rather, the explanation of what post 27 meant is perhaps more revealing than Incog intended.
In Post 252 Incog explains that:

Before this game began, Patrick and I had a conversation about how we both were hoping to not draw scum roles in this game. We joked around about the possibility of all three of me, Patrick, and Ether being the scum team and how horrible that would be since we all enjoy town roles much better than scum roles. 42% was the probability that all three of us would be aligned on the side of the town due to random distribution of roles if we assume a three-person scum team [(3/4) x (3/4) x (3/4)]. So my IGMEOY was in relation to that - the fact that it would mathematically be more probable for at least one of us to be aligned on the side of the scum as opposed to all three of us being town.

My hunch is that the explanation is more revealing now than it was at the time. Now that we know Patrick and Ether are town, it changes the character of this post somewhat. I reckon this is Incog-scum using the in-joke to try to signal to Patrick and Ether that "he is a townie too".
It just doesn't wash with me.

The second major part of my suspicion of Incog is indeed his avoidance of the competing wagons. I think what I said in post 723 still holds true

Glork believes the Elmo wagon is "chockful of opportunism" - Given the people on that wagon, the only unconfirmed ones are PokerFace and Erg0.

I'm pretty happy with the idea 2 townies (Patrick and PokerFace) + 2 scum (Tar and Erg0) on the townie wagon, with the third scum (Incog) putting his vote elsewhere to avoid linkage.

Well I can't say I see that as a slip. Looks like they are just joking about the odds. I suppose that could be a way of warming up to Patrick and Ether but not a slip.

_________________

PokerFace, I can't answer for MafiaSSK, because I am not him. I think it is unreasonable for you to demand that I tell you what MafiaSSK was thinking at the time.

PokerFace, whilst I share MafiaSSK's role PM, I am not privy to how his thought process works, nor do I share his playstyle preferences. If you wanted to know why MafiaSSK voted the way he did on Day 1 you should have asked him at the time.
Why wait until now to bring it up? How do you expect me to answer for MafiaSSK in the way you require?

I asked SSK this a bunch of times during days 1 and 2. feel free to look back at my posts and see that I did indeed do that. SSK lurked and never answered. And so if you know him and therefore yourself both to be town, I ask if you can think of any reason "any" townie would ever vote someone they think is town for an entire day. Can you think of any reason?

If you can't answer for him then you can answer from an objective point of view can't you? Can you think of any town reason to vote somebody you think is town? Yes or No? Please quit avoiding that question and answer it. I sure can't think of any answer for that. Only answer I can see is that would be strong distancing for a scum SSK to use.

Also SSK's playstyle is related to his alignment which in turn is related to yours.

This can't be true. If playstyle was linked to alignment I would be playing exactly the same way as MafiaSSK was playing. In addition, all vanilla townies would play the same way because their role PMs - and therefore their playstyle - would be identical.

Playstyle is linked to player and then linked to alignment. That playstyle makes SSK scum. And you replaced SSK. You seem to like to push the banner of "He did it not me. I should get off with a clean slate." If you want I'll see if i can take a look at your own scum playstyle and see if I can bring that up here. And besides, there were times you seemed to lurk off and not respond to some of my posts imediatly, so perhaps in a way you lurked but certainly not as much as SSK did.

He has only used this style in this game and one other he says. And he was scum in the other game. Scum in other game where he used this style gives good chance he is scum trying to use that lurking style to protect himself here. Do the math I can't believe you don't see what I'm getting at there.

OK. SSK was scum in the other game where he used a similar playstyle.
In that other game, he referred to this game as an example of a game where he had used the style before. So, in the other game he was scum and he used this game

as a defence

. Why would he do that if he knew that he would eventually flip as scum? The only reason to reference this game is to demonstrate to the other game's players "look, I play this way as town".

I already gave my opinion to that

I more so thought he was referencing us in an attempt to clear himself via context for the "Akatsuki" game. Our game is ongoing and so no one knows his alignment here except him. Just before Mafiassk left us here the general concensus was that he had a good chance of being town. When looking at an ongoing game where you have not card flipped, all you can get is a general consensus of the views others have of you. So basically you are using the views of others to clear you and since your alignment and the alignments of others viewing you is unknown, it is not evidence that can entirely clear you in any game. In the "Akatsuki" game he mentioned his stategies as working to find scum. But he wasn't really finding scum in our game with the strategy nor was he really using it for that purpose in the "Akatsuki" game. He never deeply went into who he thought was scum. He only briefly said why he thought Glork had a better chance of being scum over Tarhalindur. All his lurking ever did was keep him hidden from criticism until someone pointed it out. If you think my view is incorrect tell me. And now that i think about it, we should probably watch how this topic is discussed since I don't want to see any modkillings involved with the aspect of people talking about ongoing games elsewhere. Modkills is an unsportsman like thing to happen in any game.

_________________

You are not activly pushing incognito's lynch today and you weren't doing it well enough yesterday either. You didn't vote him and I don't believe you successfully made him look like scum to anyone.

I fully intended to vote for Incog Today, and still do so. What is it with you telling me how to use my vote?! When I'm ready I'll vote.

Right deadline is monday night. You are sure taking your time. Nothing much jumps my radar about incognito. I can only think of 2 questions for him.

@Incognito,

How often do you see a framer in a normal game? I seem to remember Adel ranting about its rareness in MD, and yet you said you knew it was here and miller could not be? Also...

Sure. On Day 2, everyone's actions and reactions surrounding the Glork/Tar bout had already been measured as best and as genuinely as they could be. For example, judging by Ether's reaction, it seemed like she genuinely believed Tar over Glork at first but then switched over to believing Glork over Tar when she realized how lurky Tarhalindur became. This seemed like a very town reaction to me, and I pretty much had Ether checked off as obvtown from that point on. Another example was Erg0's "epiphany". His epiphany looked more contrived and looked more like a way to ease his way away from Glork and onto Tar to try and appear pro-town when the tide's were shifting, which was part of the reason I questioned him about it. Therefore, he looked more like scum at that point. hasdgfas's actions around the Tar/Glork stuff looked weird to me too, but he turned out to be town. Basically, I felt like any additional reactions after Tar admitted to being scum wouldn't be very alignment-revealing, so I didn't have a problem hammering at that point.

Admittedly, I guess another part of it was nerves though: I felt pretty stupid believing the wrong side between Glork and Tar and felt like I had to at least redeem myself by hammering the scum.

So right here you say dropping the hammer was in a sence done in order to redeem yourself. Were you trying to make up to Glork the person, for your persistance/mistake or did that part of you want to make things up to everybody? Honestly Admitting something, scum tend to avoid. But why would a townie want to make up for something?

Also Looking over the skill of players here and considering Erg0 would still read as scum should he get investigated, I doubt your assumption he could win as scum all by himself during days 4-6 with or without scot alive. I further doubt it since I know his actions wouldn't have been a bus of his scum buddy (Since I'm not scum).

_________________

But I agree that things really look like a forced town win, though I'd still like to win it today and be alive. After all I won't be able to enjoy the after party too much if I'm dead. I doubt many strippers will be into necrophila (or feeling up my lifeless corpse) no matter how much my will pays them.

Ok yay I took that joke a little too far, but in a way I can still get scum eliminated today. I am surprised no one has picked up on it yet.

I thought about lying about my claim and seeing if you would still want to go through with it Elderad. Seeing whether you would be willing to do things like "hammer me" or sit on the sidelines. Seeing whether you'd follow through or just allow my lynch. At the moment that is still something I'd like know. After all, what have I to gain as scum? Nothing since you'd just lynch me tomorrow and I'd still be a dead loser. If I am to be lynched today I want Elderad to be certain such a thing is the best thing and I'd prefer he was the one to hammer me.

If I am lynched today I would like Elderad to hammer me. I want him to be the last vote on my wagon. You should be able to guess why I'm saying this unless you are really dence. I practically forshadowed it afterall. Did I not word it well enough?

Just because I thought about it doesn't mean I didn't do it. Elmo said balance looked slightly off and he was right in a sence, but not in the correct sence since I townie like me holds the missing card. After all what town role would want to be hammered by scum?

Get the picture yet? Thats why I want elderad to hammer me. I'm a super saint! Well my theme name is

Obnoxious Drunk

. You know, that guy at the bar who always cops a feel from the dancers and picks a fight with another patron every time he is there. That's me. My unruly nature allows me to take another player out of club with me. And the person that comes with me is the hammer dropper. That's why I want elderad to drop the hammer or be the final vote on my wagon, after all only 2 votes would be needed for half majority at deadlines. (I already checked with mod as to whether the govenor or BOUNCER's skills would pardon just me and that the guy that hammered me would still die, but that isn't the case. The pardon would protect us both since the super saint kill wouldn't go off until after I was truly lynched.)

I know lying as town is bad, But unlike all the game ruiners I hunt on night 0 as vig, my lie will not take down some inocent in a phony cop claim, or some other bad gambit like that. I will still be dieing and not wasting the towns time over the next couple of days. The lie was not done with the mal intent to save myself or risk everything on one roll of the dice. I always have a backup plan or an ace even further up my sleeve beyond just this. I had an ace up my sleve in Newbie 520 and in Clerks Mafia. How many times did I reference those games here? Worse comes to worse, I can self hammer/vote and take just myself out so that you guys can decide on things evenly tomorrow. That's my backup plan so that my actions don't further hurt the town. After all, you can use what happened today and the intentions everyone displayed here in these circumstances in order to judge who is scum tomorrow. So even if I die voteing myself, there will still be a tomorrow and the town will not be overly crippled wasting time with some almost game ruining prospect. Whatever you do Mizzy, do

NOT

use your pardon skill on me!

I lie in order to see reactions. Elderad's reaction did not involve puting a case on incognito quickly. He is still taking his time. So he must indeed be scum hoping to get through to tomorrow where he can keep the more openminded of Elmo or Mizzy alive so they'll lynch incognito for them.

I doubt either will listen to him with these indecisive views.

Which makes we wonder about Incog's motivation for that vote.
But yeah. My current plan is lynch Incog Today. If the game doesn't end, then we lynch PokerFace Tomorrow unless some new information comes to light.

Can't see why there would be consideration of elmo or mizzy being scum at all today. Elderad needs to hammer me before the day is out. Worse comes to worse, I can self hammer like mentioned, but regardless I don't really suspect incognito at this moment so Elderad needs to either persuade me and the others to lynch incognito or hammer me. Ether way I too think the Town is wining this game.

[PokerFace]

Well I can't say I see that as a slip. Looks like they are just joking about the odds. I suppose that could be a way of warming up to Patrick and Ether but not a slip.

Why don't you let Incog answer for himself, hmm? It's interesting that you can see the possibility that it is Incog buddying up to two townies though.

If you think I'm answering for incognito, I certainly am not. I see no way I'd gain from that. I more so wanted to give my opinion. I suppose incognito should give his now anyway.

If we're looking for slips, I think post 27 is something of a slip on Incog's part. Or rather, the explanation of what post 27 meant is perhaps more revealing than Incog intended.
In Post 252 Incog explains that:

Before this game began, Patrick and I had a conversation about how we both were hoping to not draw scum roles in this game. We joked around about the possibility of all three of me, Patrick, and Ether being the scum team and how horrible that would be since we all enjoy town roles much better than scum roles. 42% was the probability that all three of us would be aligned on the side of the town due to random distribution of roles if we assume a three-person scum team [(3/4) x (3/4) x (3/4)]. So my IGMEOY was in relation to that - the fact that it would mathematically be more probable for at least one of us to be aligned on the side of the scum as opposed to all three of us being town.

My hunch is that the explanation is more revealing now than it was at the time. Now that we know Patrick and Ether are town, it changes the character of this post somewhat. I reckon this is Incog-scum using the in-joke to try to signal to Patrick and Ether that "he is a townie too".
It just doesn't wash with me.

The second major part of my suspicion of Incog is indeed his avoidance of the competing wagons. I think what I said in post 723 still holds true

Glork believes the Elmo wagon is "chockful of opportunism" - Given the people on that wagon, the only unconfirmed ones are PokerFace and Erg0.

I'm pretty happy with the idea 2 townies (Patrick and PokerFace) + 2 scum (Tar and Erg0) on the townie wagon, with the third scum (Incog) putting his vote elsewhere to avoid linkage.

_________________

Playstyle is linked to player and then linked to alignment.

How is playstyle linked to alignment?

Your opinion that you quoted just then contrasts sharply with your attack on me using that information from the other game. And then, when I use the same information to show how your attack is without merit ("he used this game as a defence") you say how we shouldn't be discussing it at all.
If you think that you shouldn't be using it as part of a case on me. You'll notice that I have not commented on it at all before now.

~~~
I'm not hammering PokerFace Today.

Well since SSK ain't playing anymore I don't think you'll get modkilled so i guess I should have edited that quote so you could discuss it now.

_________________

Unvote, Vote: PokerFace

Yay the supersaint claim is the real lie. I'm vanilla town and yet town shouldn't lie so feel free to policy lynch me today under suspicion of being scum so that i'm not arround tomorrow. I don't want to be an easy mislynch in lylo so I thought I'd do this in order to get reactions from Elderad and Incognito in order to see who first got to the idea of lynching themself today and lynching anyone that refused to hammer me tomorrow. Scum wouldn't benefit from such a fake claim as this since they would still be around for a lynching tomorrow. Scum would have nothing to gain from these actions and I left that reminder in my lead up confessional hints. Its a pretty funny and yet useful claim when you look at it from my town point of view. i'm actually laughing right now since I have a good sence of humor. Sorry i made you do all that extra work there Elmo. Sorry for waisting your time some. I meant to post this confession earlier but got side tracked. I wonder why noboddy consiered the option of what happens if I get night killed? Elmo and Elderad both over looked that one and I'm not sure why. incog kinda overlooked it too I think, but not as much as the others did. the went much further into the math of the auto win.

I thought about keeping this farce up til Day 6 in hopes I'd get night killed tonight by scarred scum that would be daring to try to get Elmo lynched tomorrow since Mizzy is more obv town by balance matters and the fact there has been a long twighlight at the end of everyday. A Scum govenor would only be able to use their skill once so that long twighlight each day wouldn't be necessary or would at least have a set consistant time length as apposed to a varying time length since it has gone short and long before. I am a gambler tried and true, but not even I will risk a mafioso giving up and choosing to still hammer me anyway tomorrow. To have somebody win like that would be the ultimate dishonor.

I also don't want people to waste the town's time any further on such things today and tomorrow with only so much time left. Wasting time and ruining the game getting myself lynched by a "giving up" scum is too much a dishonor to immagine. I'd have to self vig myself on night 0 to atone for that one. Go ahead and lynch me today. If you guys want you can go ahead and lecture me about lying as town now or after the game. It is bad play that I hoped could bring out the true side of Elderad and Incognito without risking ruinging the game. The reactions they just displayed are confusing to me. They both made the town reaction of lets get one of us lynched today and the other lynched tomorrow. I did not see that coming. that has never happened wehn I ran this gambit before. So not even I am certain whose scum now so before I mess things up worse I definatly need to be lynched outa here. Do

not

pardon me. Elderad and Incognito can start their battle against each other today if they want, but I should still be the lynch today. I apoligize for my actions. I honestly thought I could out scum like this and so I justified them under to intention I would not ruin the game for the town. Since I can not risk the game getting ruined like that by my actions, I bid you adue and hope none of you shun me in the future and choose not to play with me or vig me on night zero. I basically ask for your forgiveness after this is all over.

Why couldn't this town gambit have worked like it did on IRC the last 2 times I tried it? I tried this gambit out twice about year ago on IRC. One time I was night killed and the town went on to win because the scum couldn't make the the other highly townie players look like scum, and the other time the final mafioso gave up openly and self voted himself on that day without the next day or night occuring. I so wish I had gotten lucky again. I guess the third time was the oposite of the charm.

If Elderad is town and Incognito is scum, I want Elderad alive tomorrow so that he can genuinly convince the others to vote Incognito Tomorrow. And if Elderad is Scum then a town Incognito should be able to get Elderad lynched tomorrow. I hanestly can't tell whose reaction is more telling. Incognito thought of the lynch one today idea and yet suggested I still self hammer. Elderad ran with the idea and mapped out how its an auto town win and yet I get the impression he read the riddle in my first warning that this would be the true lie.

I thought about lying about my claim and seeing if you would still want to go through with it Elderad. Seeing whether you would be willing to do things like "hammer me" or sit on the sidelines. Seeing whether you'd follow through or just allow my lynch. At the moment that is still something I'd like know. After all, what have I to gain as scum? Nothing since you'd just lynch me tomorrow and I'd still be a dead loser. If I am to be lynched today I want Elderad to be certain such a thing is the best thing and I'd prefer he was the one to hammer me.

Or perhaps he caught onto the idea of why I didn't want to live to see tomorrow. I implied that idea throughout my last post. Maybe I just want to see that impression so much so that I doubt my own acting skills. Since I feel biased, I honestly think I shouldn't decide. I guess I'll let Elmo or Mizzy be the final judge tomorrow. I think that's best.

The plan did not work in its 3rd try, and I do not have the nerve to risk not getting night killed in forum. I tried both the previous runs of this plan on IRC about a year ago. I was willing to risk going to night and not getting night killed on irc because games aren't documented there. Things are passed by word of mouth there, and thus there is a large level of chaos and low levels of regrets because things can be forgotten and tried again and again with equal amounts of sucess. Because this game is documented on forum I don't think I'll be able to do this again because people will just call my bluff. So A guy adimant about an all game ruiners must die on night 0 playstyle as vig, must self lynch himself here before he risks further damage to the game and his own reputation since his reputation is actually documented in forum.

I insist that I am not a hypocrite. A fake cop claim as town is something I'll never do. If you are going to fake claim as town you must be willing to make yourself the only causality should things go all to hell. My backup plans in Clerks Mafia and Newbie 520 had alot more layway. I didn't lie in 520, I really was Doc so I created and saved a plan that would out the scum later on, since I knew that they knew I was doc and no one else did. That plan would have been awesome but it was never used and necessary, a better plan was found. In Clerks Mafia I lied and said I was a little renowned role called a Security Guard/Camera. I was still able to no lynch and watch the 2 claimed vigs kill each other again should I decide to not decide. Another backup plan there was to lynch myself and get a draw. But a no lynch to tomorrow as the soul surviving townie after the lying SK and Vig cross killed each other, would have worked well. I was gauranteed a win in both those games so the gambits as town were easier while the gambit here was not. The third time truly is unlucky for me.
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 907#884907
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 765#936765

Please lynch me now and feel free to lecture me later. Don't pardon me or refuse to lynch me anybody. I kinda need it at this point. later all.

[PokerFace]

No I want be lynched out of not wanting to waist your guy's time tomorrow in lylo. I don't want to hurt the town beyond repair and ruin things in a lylo situation. I'd rather things had an equal footing tomorrow.

I can't follow through with the gambit and risk not dying over night because I figure that will hurt my reputation and make me just as bad as the game ruiners I vig on night zero. I admit that this is a game and we should have fun and not worry about crap like reputation and stupid mistakes people have made in the past, but even I can't do that sometimes.

Thought about claiming the supersaint thing at the start of the mass claims but i didn't want to risk another town player really being a super saint. that would have messed up things beyond repair. The super saint role is rare on irc, I've practically never seen that counterclaimed or fake claimed outside of me doing it. Maybe i should have waited for incog to do his PBPA perhaps that would have led to scum getting lynched, but I was worried he wouldn't have the time with the deadline and him moving and all. I suppose I could have said I'd loose the supersaint skill over night and not self vote but there's no way anyone would believe that. Not even I would believe that since this isn't a full on theme game. Or maybe I could have suggested the night kill idea and seen if I could further use that to get scum to nk me foolishly, like how things worked before. This gambit really has versatility and usefullness for the town and does look like a good idea when you think about it. But should give up and still hammer you, or call your bluff, its all over, town looses and i can't risk that happening here. I don't have the arrogance or will to take everything away from you guys like that. you and Elmo were still well intent on lynching me earlier after all so keeping me around to tomorrow would be scum's best idea and then trick someone into hammering me.

I tried my hardest to get Elmo and Mizzy to listen and lynch some boddy else. No matter what I did you guys were still intent on lynching me, so i guess I paniced a little and decided to try one of my old crazy IRC town gambits in order to see if somebody would give up and admit to being scum today like things went before. But things failed to work as plan and so part of me wants to give up now and not risk further damage.

Poker:

I'm kind of neutral on your comments to me from before. I don't agree with your assessment of SSK (I think he was just a stupid player who didn't feel like being helpful...he was replaced and there wasn't heat on him so I tend to think he was just busy and not scum.)

I am near positive that Elmo is town because of how badly people wanted him dead d1. Scum probably saw that as an easy town target and so I thought there would be at least two scum on his wagon even before I knew it was true. It wasn't distancing; people really wanted him dead. I also don't think expected a deadline lynch. I think that scum thought it would be a great way to get a townie dead the easy way without attracting attention...they could have said, "Oh, well, I was planning to remove my pressure vote when Elmo posted more but the deadline killed him."

PF, I <3 you, but I think you're the last scum.

I'm kinda frazzled right now, but I've been procrastinating for too long. I've reread some of the game.. we've got what, five days left? Damn, I'm actually going to have to do stuff now, aren't I

Can I just ask why anyone felt the need to comment on Mizzy's role? I've been sitting on that for a while. Thanks, Mizzy

I still prefer PF. I'm going to do my standard thing of going over the game again before voting, but it's mostly out of habit/discipline at this point. It just looks like a forced win from here unless I'm wrong about Incognito. *shrug*

On IRC things happen so fast and in real time that actual levels of discussion can't be hurt by these actions, but here in forum things can get hurt and i guess i just don't want to rish making things worse. I was going to get lynched by incog, elmo, and mizzy anyway it lookslike so I should have took that like a man not resorted to my gambit, but perhaps you guys can still see some good in it and you'll be willing to forgive me after the game. I have seen some players refuse to play with others over them running gambits/lies as town and I'd hate to not be able to play with any of you guys ever again.

So that's really pretty much it. I failed to convince you guys, paniced and tried to expose things unconventionally, don't have the nerve to take the idea the full length like I did before. If we were on irc I'd take things the full length to see if I could do it again and get the same level of cheers. Oh well. PF hates being vanilla townie. Its boring! So even I find the need to spice things up. Perhaps that part of me wanted to do this too.

[PokerFace]

No I don't think Elmo or Mizzy is scum. Said that about 50 times today i think. Mizzy's role doesn't make sence as scum by balance concerns and that would mean she pardoned a town Elmo on day one. I don't Elmo is scum because of Tar and Erg0 voting him with me and Patrick. Not sure why Tar and Erg0 thought to lynch Elmo over Cow. perhaps they want to try to lynch a power role since elmo didn't claim until it was late before deadline. Cow claimed vanilla so I'm betting the two of them wanted to go for more and frame cow next night. Scot investigating Elmo sounds reasonable if you consider his statments I'd look at elmo if Tar was innocent. I doubt both cops would be sane so maybe scot was banking on being insane should Tar turn up sane cop, or something like that. Either way, no I don't think Mizzy or Elmo is scum

Town lynching one of Incognito or Elderad today could have hit scum. And then Scum nking me would make a scum Elderad or a scum Incognito have to undertake the impossible task or trying to get Elmo or Mizzy lynched on Day 6. This gambit really worked well when I ran it on irc a year ago. Like I said before the mafia failed to make one of the obv town look guilty on the final day so the town still won.

In hind sight i think part of me wanted to draw the night kill or get the scum to give up flat out. When you've tried everything you kinda resort to the crazy ideas to try to get a last ditch effort of finding scum before you go. Only in hindsight do I consider a part of me panicing and wanting to save myself, but since my actions were at getting scum to out themselves I don't think that saving myself anymore was at all priority since saving myself would leave me here tomorrow for an easy mislynch. I did crazy antics in Clerks and even in Dynamite Stick Mafia when my life was in danger as town or when it down to the wire and nobody was really discussing anything but me.

@Elderad,

If I had to pick between you and incognito I guess I'd still lean towards you being the scum because of that other stuff I said today and because Incognito's day one play still looks genuine town to me. His hammer on Tar is the only thing that ever bugged me. Hammering Tar for one's self pride is different from hammering for the rest of the town or to suck up to Glork. Do you possibly think the comments I mentioned earlier could have been Incognito buddying up to Patrick and Ether? If you think Incognito is scum then what do you make of his day 1 play where he went for Glork at the end and still felt the need to comment on Cow's nilla claim?

I'd like Elmo and Mizzy to answer this question too so i can get their view point of incognito's day one play.

@Elderad, again

Do you want to comment on Incog's day 2 persistance and push on Glork then hammer of Tar? Also why aren't you voting me right now Elderad if you think I'm scum?

@Incognito,

If you did or even just partially did that PBPA of me and Elderad, I'd like to see it.

Perhaps I should unvote myself and try to figure out which of Elderad and Incognito is scum from here on out. Suicide this early does seem off, i can still help things and always re-vote myself just before deadline so that there isn't a no lynch. No lynch today looks wrong in every way shape and form at this point. And suicide this early looks bad in a town perspective considering some MD threads I have been reading. As long as i'm not arround tomorrow for an easy mislynch. Elderad vs Incognito starting there thing today is still fine by me.

Unvote

[PokerFace]

EBWOP:
I did crazy antics in Clerks when i had trouble picking which one was the SK faking vig and which was the real vig. Even in Dynamite Stick Mafia when my life was in danger meaning me and Elmo both "lit" our selves I thought of a crazy conspiracy theory to justify who i would be blowing up with me. Part of me wanted Elmo to blow someone up instead and maybe part of me wanted to live to endgame or deal the final blow on scum for fame and because a condition of the game required one towni being alive at endgame.

I should report things more factially even though I'm in a rush real life wise right now.

[PokerFace]

Town lynching one of Incognito or Elderad today could have hit scum. And then Scum nking me would make a scum Elderad or a scum Incognito have to undertake the impossible task or trying to get Elmo or Mizzy lynched on Day 6.

And you're concerned about this situation arising?! That Incogscum or Eldscum would go into the last Day as the only unconfirmed player and might win?

No I think you are misreading that. Should the scum give up here. Not NK me and choose to hammer me tomorrow sorrowfully while giving up, they would win. I ain't a super saint so they would win while giving up. I admit I doubt many people would have the resolve to act in such a manner, but I wouldn't put it past some people I've played with. I think Xtoxm would be someone to act like that. i have not played with you guys enough to calculate if any of you guys would do that. Xtoxm kinda gave up in Clerks Mafia and yet followed through.

Its basically a calculation of how far would someone be willing to fight for it. Normally people would indeed fight to the last man and nk me. Scum got no reason to believe town would lie and Gambit so I considered taking things further. Maybe I should have for glory of a successfully claim, but failure by the previous means would be a pretty bad dishonor. Think you could answer my question now? Voting me now looks like you're trying to lynch me quickly in order to avoid the qiuestions and just get to tomorrow. we got til monday so let's try and get something out of me thinks.

[PokerFace]

I can't gaurantee the scum will nk me. Thats the one element this gambit can't entirely control. I can predict how alot people on IRC would act and how successful the gambit would be since I've played with them too much to know how they'd take it. And since it did work before.

Not sure if I could predict you guys. When this game is all over I'll have to ask the scum if they would have NKed me and probably end up hitting myself for being right and not having the nerve to follow through.

[PokerFace]

You're not a Supersaint, so the "lynch Incog/Eld Today, force the other to hammer Incog Tomorrow" plan doesn't work anymore. Which is why I'm voting for you now.

No you are still misreading and not getting my point. Hope this don't get covered up by simul posting but picture this...

everybody believes I am a Super Saint. A townie gets lynched today. We go into night. Scum rattles their brain and decides to give up during the night. So they kill Elmo or Mizzy and then they go into tomorrow. They continue and follow through with the game despite giving up and decide to go out by hammering me. They don't go out by hammering me because I lied. They win the game.

There are certin people I know who would do that and I am wondering if any of you guys would. I wondered if Incog's "I still think your thick Elderad, but

meh

" was something like that yesterday, but maybe i'm over thinking that now.

[PokerFace]

At this point, I think lying to save oneself would be a town AND scum thing to do. He was more than willing to kill himself, though, and I can't see scum being willing to do that.

Eld, you're next on my scumlist and I really don't like your #895.

Eld:

If he is town then allowing himself to die is anti-town so unvoting would be a pro-town thing to do. You really ARE being thick. And just because the two of you volunteered to do it doesn't mean jack shit. You didn't do it so for all we know it was a scum tactic.

Why don't we then just lynch PF and let Eld hammer him. Two birds, one stone, everyone is happy. Then if we don't win, Elmo and I know who to kill tomorrow.

Um, Mizzy I think you might have missed something. I certainly didn't predict this. I thought you'd be the first to hammer me in this situation. how did this make you think i wasn't scum and yet consider I'm still a supersaint?

[PokerFace]

That's assuming I'm scum. Scum would have no benefit from the actions I'm taking fake claiming or really being supersaint. I even alluded to this claim and unclaim being stupid from a scum perspective even before we went through this whole thing. If you want to be technical i was the first one to consider town having a gauranteed town win situation.

I thought about lying about my claim and seeing if you would still want to go through with it Elderad. Seeing whether you would be willing to do things like "hammer me" or sit on the sidelines. Seeing whether you'd follow through or just allow my lynch. At the moment that is still something I'd like know. After all, what have I to gain as scum? Nothing since you'd just lynch me tomorrow and I'd still be a dead loser. If I am to be lynched today I want Elderad to be certain such a thing is the best thing and I'd prefer he was the one to hammer me.

That's partly why I consider the claim so useful. scum pretty much have to NK you and try the impossible, to get an obv townie lynched the next day. Maybe I should have still tried it but its too late to go back now.

[PokerFace]

That's assuming I'm scum. Scum would have no benefit from the actions I'm taking fake claiming or really being supersaint. I even alluded to this claim and unclaim being stupid from a scum perspective even before we went through this whole thing. If you want to be technical i was the first one to consider town having a gauranteed town win situation.

I thought about lying about my claim and seeing if you would still want to go through with it Elderad. Seeing whether you would be willing to do things like "hammer me" or sit on the sidelines. Seeing whether you'd follow through or just allow my lynch. At the moment that is still something I'd like know.

After all, what have I to gain as scum? Nothing since you'd just lynch me tomorrow and I'd still be a dead loser.

If I am to be lynched today I want Elderad to be certain such a thing is the best thing and I'd prefer he was the one to hammer me.

That's partly why I consider the claim so useful. scum pretty much have to NK you and try the impossible, to get an obv townie lynched the next day. Maybe I should have still tried it but its too late to go back now.

For emphasis. I'd be a dead loser as scum because it is an obv gauranteed town win. I would think of a much better claim than this as scum. Can you give your case on Incognito now by answering my questions. I'd like to see it, considering how you thought out the gaurantee plan further than incognito did? Either that was a ploy like Mizzy suggests or I was seriously wrong about you and I'd like you to be on equal footing with incognito tomorrow if I am possibly dead wrong.

[PokerFace]

Huh? I'm actually not trying to convince any one i'm town right now. I suppose part of me is still insist on showing the merits of this gambit as town but I'm more so trying to see which of you or incognito is scum. And yes even I'm confused by how you guys got to the same gaurantee plan conclusion. Incognito got there by different means and didn't go all the way so i guess that may be something. Incog suggested it before you and left the option for me to self hammer ether as a backup plan or as his true scum objective maybe.

I have never seen scum claim bomb and actually get the town to faine from killing them that day or the next. Where have you seen that? Sounds pretty stupid to me since they would inevetably still die. I'd like to see any scum pull that one off successfully.

Asking you to hammer may have been too much assuming everyone believed everything and you thought I was town and then more so believed the claim since town ain't suppose to lie. And yay in some ways I think you could have hammered today in that situation based on my original estimations of reaction. I've seen townies volunteer and hammer super saint claimers even in situations like this. But more so i think you would have pushed harder on incog as town even before I made this whole claim thing. You waited til two days before deadline to begin to push your case. I spent pretty much the entire early part of the day making my case on you. And Incog did the same with respect to a case on me. You voted him only after my claim which I may expect from a both town AND scum you but I still lean towards the first one thinking of the gaurantee thing as town since Incog mentioned it first. Maybe I should have suggested Incognito hammer. If i actually suspected him back then I think the gambit may have worked in that respect.

I am not sure what to think anymore, i never abandaned the plan part way through so I never took the time to calculate things going like this. I'd still expect you to have an open mind and be on Incognito as Town. Yet I admitt lieing as town is always bad so i can see why you'd be on me in that respect. Yet Incog pushing my lynch all by himself as scum feels off too. I think that may be why I just want to see you guys decide it now.

[PokerFace]

I guess what I'd most expect a town you to do in this situation would be yes to vote incognito, but then suggest others to lynch him today and you hammer me by default tomorrow at the start as apposed to just saying i won't hammer PF.

And a Scum you would also vote incognito and push on him and not even suggest the plan or at least not the part where you would be willing to hammer me and loose the next day.
________________

Way you came off here, you were saying you would never hammer ever and then you wielded to what incognito said almost as an apeal. And then let up like you didn't have to do any work. i think scum would then push on incognito like there was no tomorrow then plan to nk me and so on. That don't make sence. You let up and push at the wrong times I would predict by how i was picturing you while Incognito has not posted in awhile. Either because he can't get access or he doesn't know what to do and did give up with the meh comment.

[PokerFace]

check that, just glanced at incog's recent posting records. He probably can't get access and doesn't even know what's going on right now. I wonder what him and elmo will do when they get here. I didn't think Mizzy would do what she's doing.

[PokerFace]

I'm vanilla, mizzy.

That claim was comical and yet fitting for the town gambit I had in mind. Sorry about not following through with it and only going part way. Going too far risks too much damage to the town and the game so i was hoping to try and get some view on Incog vs Elderad before I got tossed out of here. I think my gambit screwed things up too much since I am confused on how to look at some of the varying actions. Maybe I should have just followed through and things may have blown over well during the night or maybe one of them would have hesitated and gotten lynched tomorrow, but if one of Incog and Elderad is town and the other is scum, I'd hate to deprive the situation of an actual even grounds chance by risking all things going to hell. In forum you go time to stop think and discuss. In real time IRC that can't happen so destroying things in one game when you play multiple games in so little time pretty much does nothing. Oh well.

I'll say it again, I'm a vanilla townie that tried an old outrageous gambit that I did not take to its full extent. When the game is over I'll have to ask the scum what they would have done had i kept the gambit up out of curiousity. I'm not even an obnoxious drunk in realy life. That claim title is really funny when you think about it.

[PokerFace]

(I bought myself a damn 7 dollar sandwich from f-ing Panera Bread just so I can sit down and get some wireless access for this game.

That's

dedication. )

Um, wow... There's like a few things that really don't make sense here. PF, you've repeatedly insisted that eldarad is the final scum and that I am town, you voted for him and pursued a case against him, and now you claim that you pulled this SS gambit to try and weed out the final scum but after claiming that both mine and eldarad's reactions seemed town, you've backed off and given up? You even claim that you realized that if we didn't lynch the scum today, the scum would have to basically NK you tonight and attempt to go up against Elmo and Mizzy tomorrow in order to stand a chance. If you're really town, then isn't that what you would have wanted from this gambit in the first place?

Yes That is something I would have wanted, but I can't gaurantee it since I got no power of who gets nked. Under the assumption, scum would trust a town me to truthfully be a super saint, nking me and trying to lynch one of Mizzy or Elmo would become a viable option for them especially if I was a supersaint.

I mean, both me and eldarad were content with dying today - if you truly believed that either me or eldarad (namely eldarad since you've

repeatedly insisted

that he's scum) was the final scum, then you would have been happy to continue on with this gambit realizing that if eldarad (your top scum choice) got lynched today, we would be dealing with a town win anyway and not even have to get to tomorrow, no?

True, but his recent reactions of playing out the gauranteed thing have really puzzled me. A scum would have pushed harder on you at that perticular point to get you lynched today with nking me already in mind for night. He stoped pushing on you and left things up to Mizzy and Elmo like he was just going to sit back and relax for a win and that reaction i would see from town. Why did you call Elderad still pretty thick earlier?

Basically things looked like i was dead wrong for a moment and if i was wrong and you were scum that possibly had the tendency to give up to the perticular extent and still be willing to hammer me despite believing I was super saint, that would be a town loss since I ain't super saint.

If Elderad is town I'd want someone who honestly thought you were scum to get a scum you lynched tomorrow because I don't know if I could do it even with the gambits assistance. Even now I look to your days 1 and 2 play and still see that as making you town. If you are scum you have truly played well. So I'm basically torn between believe the reactions i just got and the notions I've had throughout the day. I can't decide and must admit I feel biased

On the flip side, eldarad, if you really had a scum read on me and a town read of PF therefore making you believe his SS claim, then shouldn't you of all people have realized that a hypothetical Incog-scum's best move would have been to NK PokerFace in order to avoid an auto-lose situation? I thought PF was scum fake-claiming SS, so I figured he would definitely be around tomorrow if we went through with the plan but if you're town and you believed he was a supersaint, then shouldn't you have expected him to die tonight if I didn't get lynched today?

The bolded is me. I won't answer that last paragraph since I believe its directed at Elderad at not me.

And BTW Panera bread is expensive as crap.

[PokerFace]

Wrote this first part before reading your last post. Don't feel like going back and editing this section, I'll address you answer later in this post.

basically post #881 looks like scum reaction because he refused to hammer and did not come up with the gauratnee plan first.

Post #882 has the gaurantee plan which is a town reaction, but it also has you actually making some push comments towards elderad when I thought you thought he was town. You say you can see a scum him refusing to make a hammer and what not and you leave the option of me self hammering around. Scum would begin to push on him then to get him lynched today or tomorrow while leaving the option for me to self hammer and be gone today. At least thats what I think with how much it looked like you believed me. You refered to Elderad in a manor that made me think you were considering him as scum and so that kinda looked like you were flip floping unless you honestly thought post 881 made him scum. Did you honestly think that? and why did you leave the comment about me self hammering still and not running out the possibilities of the gaurantee plan?

Posts #883 and #884 are town reactions since your agreeing to the plans

Post #885 looks like something a town would say too.

Post #886 i am not sure what to make of it. If you agreed with Elderad and were all set for the plan, why did you call him thick and say meh? I thought you were possibly giving up or planning to give up over night and that kinda made me want to abandone ship

Post #887 Elderad says he thinks your town which is a huge flipflop to make considering the time between #881 and #887 is very short. that all happened in under an hour. 1:18pm to 1:50pm in my time zone.

So in general some of the posts throw me off. I did not predict things well enough in this run through of the gambit. Some posts confuse me and throw things off. I kinda wish I could have seen more interactions between you two there in order to decifer things better but I didn't want to waist the towns time in that respect.

IRC play is in real time so you see more reactions and emotitions and so you have to play with your gut since things can get interupted with everyone talking back and forth. Here you can use your brain and more easily map out plans because someone isn't interupting you. You are not caught in a simultype fight as often in forum as you are in irc or in real life mafia for that matter so I think speed may have given that gambit a better edge on there too.

_________________

In response to your question, I called him thick because I still thought he was misguided town for still believing that I was scum even after he

agreed

with my plan of action, and his partial case(s) against me really don't/doesn't make much sense to me. I mean, I guess I could see the point he might have been getting at about me being off the Elmo and hasdgfas wagon during Day 1 and why he might think that might make me scummy but in order for him to truly believe that it made me scummy, he'd have to believe that Glork's actions during Day 1 weren't questionable enough to warrant a vote or that my reasons for voting for Glork were weak or something. Considering the fact that I still pursued a Glork-lynch during Day 2 and eldarad himself pushed for a Glork-lynch upon entering the game during Day 2, then obviously he couldn't possibly believe that my Glork vote during Day 1 was unwarranted and therefore he shouldn't be thinking that I was using it to simply hide off-wagon - the vote would truly be justified from his view.

Oh and you asked about my PBPAs earlier: I never bothered to write them because after you claimed SS, that kinda changed things from my perspective.

And yeah, Panera Bread is expensive as hell. If I can tap into one of the neighbor's wireless thingies later, I should be able to respond to anything new today. Otherwise, it'll have to wait until tomorrow when I'm at work unfortunately.

That makes sence behind the thick comment I guess. Also I was thinking about some of that stuff with respect to your day 1 and 2 play and that's why I asked him about it. I wanted to try and see his viewpoint because you two were indeed both on Glork and whatnot. He couldn't have honestly thought your actions those days were questionable I guess and so I wanted to see what he would make of it by asking those questions. I'm still hoping I can get and swer to that junk.

I understand you not getting to do the PBPA stuff since what I did, did change the entire flow of things. You can hate me for that after the game, but I certainly hope you don't and you'll forgive me. I just thought that by chance you may have started it and that would have been interesting to look at considering my overall view of Elderad/SSK's play vs your overall view of his play. I wanted to see if you consider him scummy at any point and how.

[PokerFace]

Yay incognito just signed off if I read his last comment correctly and I'll be leaving soon too, in order to help my uncle out with some things so that should give you and everyone else time to comment. I'll either get back on tonight or tomorrow. perferably tonight.

[PokerFace]

At work right now. I'll take care of things when I get home. got in too late to post last night. I got some relevant things to say before the hammer drops which I'll take care of when I get off work. If work weren't so busy right now I'd say more.

[PokerFace]

Man what was I thinking. I got into that mind state through some wierd occurances indeed, but I think there are still some savagable lessons i can learn and put to use in my sane state of mine from wanting to try and then not wanting to try a rather awesome gambit in my insane state of mind.

Elmo you don't need to analyze this post. You've got enough to look at already, just continue your analysis of incognito and elderad. I think you are better at examining this situation then i am. You can still read this post, but regardless I'd perfer i was today's lynch so i'm not around to be lynched by scum easily tomorrow.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I left the comment about you self-hammering because like I said, I still thought you were mafia who might suggest that eldarad's refusal to hammer was scummy. Let's suppose Mizzy placed the second vote on you - she might have pardoned you out of fear that you might truly be a supersaint and that eldarad really was scum refusing to hammer. The only person who had been fairly certain that you are the final mafiate has been me. Both Mizzy and Elmo seem torn between you and eldarad, and eldarad was insisting that I was scum. You hammering yourself would at least allow Mizzy to not have to worry about dying due to an SS fear and decide more calmly to pardon you or not.

Poker:

I'm kind of neutral on your comments to me from before. I don't agree with your assessment of SSK (I think he was just a stupid player who didn't feel like being helpful...he was replaced and there wasn't heat on him so I tend to think he was just busy and not scum.)

I am near positive that Elmo is town because of how badly people wanted him dead d1. Scum probably saw that as an easy town target and so I thought there would be at least two scum on his wagon even before I knew it was true. It wasn't distancing; people really wanted him dead. I also don't think expected a deadline lynch. I think that scum thought it would be a great way to get a townie dead the easy way without attracting attention...they could have said, "Oh, well, I was planning to remove my pressure vote when Elmo posted more but the deadline killed him."

PF, I <3 you, but I think you're the last scum.

I'm kinda frazzled right now, but I've been procrastinating for too long. I've reread some of the game.. we've got what, five days left? Damn, I'm actually going to have to do stuff now, aren't I

Can I just ask why anyone felt the need to comment on Mizzy's role? I've been sitting on that for a while. Thanks, Mizzy

I still prefer PF. I'm going to do my standard thing of going over the game again before voting, but it's mostly out of habit/discipline at this point. It just looks like a forced win from here unless I'm wrong about Incognito. *shrug*

Right, Elmo and Mizzy have already been set on things. Gambit abadoned and normal play I doubt could have changed things. Only running the gambit all the way would have kept me alive and perhaps killed at night which would have been awesome I thinks.

_________________

Elmo claimed Vanilla on Day 1 when he was wagoned near deadline. And I already said 10 times I don't want pardoned. A pardon would cause a no lynch and that happening this late in the game on any player would be fail.

basically post #881 looks like scum reaction because he refused to hammer and did not come up with the gauratnee plan first.

And this, ladies and gentlemen, is one of the benefits that the fake supersaint claim gives to the scum - an avenue to attack me for refusing to hammer.
Incog was right on the money with #882

The way I see it is if PF is scum fake-claiming SS and eldarad refuses to hammer, then PF might choose to not self-hammer to try and draw a pardon from Mizzy to live another day as she's left wondering whether or not he's telling the truth or if he's lying about his role. And with eldarad insisting that I'm scum,

I could see him refusing to hammer which makes this a pretty good scum fake-claim at this point.

Bleh. If PF is town and telling the truth, then eldarad has to be scum, and he'll still use his "insistence" that I'm scum as reason to not want to hammer PF. The alternative to lynching PF for you guys I guess could be deciding which of the two (me or eldarad) is more likely to be scum and lynching one of us today. If we lynch wrong, then the situation can be evaluated tomorrow and a decision could be made about whether to believe PF or to believe the person who was not lynched today.

So, PokerFace, do you still insist that a fake Supersaint claim would have absolutely

no

benefit for scum?

I suppose that makes sence but it still seems pretty stupid when all you need is a townie that finds the mafioso suspicious and that townie just has to be willing to drop the hammer and agree. That plan would be doomed to failure, unless no one found the scum suspicious. And if no one found him suspicious that would make the claim useless. The mafioso would have to make the claim hoping it would clear him of all suspicion. A mafioso still telling people to hammer him or having people that would be willing to hammer him sooner or later would still loose. A scum doing such a plan would have to be very skilled, very brave, or a total idiot to think he could succeed and even then he'd need lots of luck.

Absolutely. And PokerFace hasn't got an answer for this apart from "oh, the mafia might not have NK'ed me" but he can't adequately explain why the mafia would refuse to NK him, and then - on top of that - turn up the next Day and hammer him. (This is my first game with Incog, and yet I'd bet my mortgage¹ that he wouldn't give up in this way. And you only need to read a game where I am lynched to see that I never go down without a fight. For a player who is so keen on meta-gaming the players in this game, it's a glaring oversight.)

Actually I have been so busy as of late I never took the time to meta you or Incog. I haven't been using meta info as life support, only as a extra info to help me in this game.

Forgot to respond to this:

Pokerface: How heavily do you generally use metagaming? How do you feel it helps you? If I were to metagame you, would I find you placing an unusual emphasis on metagaming here, and why?

I usually don't use it this heavily. Most of the time I consider it as extra knowledge to keep in mind when analyzing a player that always lurks or has little content/involvement in the game. It can help me find drastic differences in their play. If you were to metagame me, i would say that YES, I am dwelling more on metagaming in this game. I mentioned earlier that I was doing this and why I was doing this in posts #239 and #250.

I may comment on #274 more later, I'm really tired and I want to go to bed now.

My play hasn't been all meta in this game or any game for that matter. I did the metaing because the play of everyone else seemed to base their early observations off other games. i think we all should have just focused more on this game perhaps in general at its begining, that may have made our day 1 lynch more successful.

_________________

So I'm basically torn between believe the reactions i just got and the notions I've had throughout the day. I can't decide and must admit I feel biased

So, even with the results of your gambit, you don't want to commit one way or the other?

Based on reactions alone, And how you have continued to act I actually highly consider you to be town. You are attacking me and trying to get me lynched more strongly than the others. Incog is sitting back and answering questions while it appears he is along for the ride. Perhaps it is wifom, but townies have nothing to loose by trying their hardest to get who they think is the last scum lynched. Looking back Incog's case on me was mainly process of elimination. Indeed i should have skipped the gambit and just waited for that PBPA not sure what i was thinking. But the point I'm getting at is if you are scum, then you know i'm town, an if you knew that, I hesitate to think you would recklessly push like this or fane and push with that unvoting mess. So either you are town, or you are Mafia that actually thinks he could get lynched today and therefore feels the need to lynch me (I suppose mizzy is pushing on you but there is little others that would even consider lynching you today), despite how it will make him look. In hindsight i believe I did it all for reactions and future actions and if that were the basis and only deciding factor then you would look town.
Incog went on to ask you a question earlier as though he would possibly consider lynching you today.

On the flip side, eldarad, if you really had a scum read on me and a town read of PF therefore making you believe his SS claim, then shouldn't you of all people have realized that a hypothetical Incog-scum's best move would have been to NK PokerFace in order to avoid an auto-lose situation? I thought PF was scum fake-claiming SS, so I figured he would definitely be around tomorrow if we went through with the plan but if you're town and you believed he was a supersaint, then shouldn't you have expected him to die tonight if I didn't get lynched today?

He is either playing like he knows there will be a tomorrow to lynch you (which would make him scum) or he is more open minded as town then I would normally suspect.

When you think about WIFOM you can't over think. you should pick the first one. Based on overall play I'd say incognito is Town and Elderad is scum. Based on recent play I'd reverse that. And the only element that would cancel that would be if I truly couldn't predict everything. And if that is the case then we are back where we started from with Incog town and Elderad scum. So do I go with all biased or risk saying I was wrong up until this moment. I ain't got enough experience with you both to make the final call So I guess I should drink the first glass and trust my original view since I have uncertain basis behind the recent reactions.

Incog town, elderad scum final answer

Elmo's post 932, 944 reinforce this. And Elmo does see how some of Incognito's actions confused me and made me consider Incog being scum with a way out with the later 3 Incog quotes elmo analyizes. Elmo may be better at analizing reactions than I am. He would have more experience with Elderad and Incognito. So if he still sees Incog town, Elderad scum, then I do too.

After all If Elmo is scum, Tar's push and the pardon cleared him well. It does feel like he is on the sidline but I still can't see him as scum because of the Tar's actions. Further I actually didn't see the part where Elmo considered me getting night kill. I was sleep deprived bigtime and a little confused by his math I think. So him noticing the night kill possibly hitting me means he is indeed town undoubtly. Scum would know exactly where the kill would go and not maybe where it would go.

Elmo is still town in my view.

Mizzy as scum doesn't make sence with her roll and that has already been explained.

Mizzy is town.

She is a little forgetful in remembering game actions and happenings, but that doesn't make you scum i can only imagine how busy her life has been as of late. I enjoy playing with her now and I enjoyed it back when I had my first game with her. She has changed but she is still Mizzy and I hope to play with her in another game sometime. Though I think she is truly over thinking or being too cautious about things. Only once did I ever pull off a qudrupple bluff as Elderad would describe it. And it did work but there I truly was a supersaint and was town, playing off my gambits success on IRC around people that had seen and still remembered it working. I'm not a supersaint here so I can't use that again despite how tempting this all sounds.

I can see PF really being a supersaint and then unclaiming in order to make the last scum okay with hammering him. That scum would feel like they had an excuse, following the policy of LAL, and then he'd end up dying when he didn't think he would.

I can also see a PF-scum claiming and then unclaiming, making all the townies scared to vote for him.

Either way, it would be very dangerous for Elmo or I to hammer (or any town) in case he IS a supersaint townie because we would auto-lose.

I'm rather torn on the whole thing.

And Eld, you've been my number 2 choice for scum for a long time.

I'll be around at deadline to either self hammer or let you guys do it for me since no lynching would be bad here. Elmo should get the chance to finish his analysis I won't hammer before 9:55 pm. Again

Mizzy do NOT pardon me

or anybody throughout the rest of the game because that would be for fail no lynching. laterz.

[PokerFace]

hi I'm here I said i would be. Anything else you want to ask me before I self hammer or the day ends?

[PokerFace]

site time test.

[PokerFace]

Well its seems I've run out of time and no lynches suck for the town. Two votes would lynch me by OGML's rules but I guess I just want to certain on that matter. I wonder what kind of fun OGML will have writing my death scene. I liked his last one where I shot Erg0 in the head. Gets him back for practically setting me up for a lynch today. I hope my own death scene is good. I also wonder if Elmo considers me as scum. Would have liked to see him finish his analysis. too bad

Unvote, Vote: PokerFace

[PokerFace]

well it is 10:02 and OGML ain't logged in yet. If you have the 4th post in your analysis already written, you can still give that maybe

[PokerFace]

I actually don't think I've played with any of you on IRC so I doubt you'd know any of my tendencies on there unless you were playing under a different name.

[PokerFace]

Go to bed you two. Its night time now. Good luck tomorrow and

don't

pardon me

[PokerFace]

Bah. Yeah, I'm wiped out after the day I've had and this, I'm goig to sleep for about a month now.

I wish I could sleep like that. I've been so sleep deprived as of late its been effecting my thoughts at work and in mafia.

[PokerFace]

I would like to propose a motion:
1)

on conclusion of this game, we force PokerFace to put a suitable reference into his sig indicating his contrition for that

horrible

play

2) we lynch Elmo.

All in favour?

What exactly did you have in mind? After all...

Interesting proposition. When I saw your name as a reply to this thread, I figured I'd come in with your vote on me already with either Elmo readying the hammer if he did happen to be the last scum or Elmo checking in and not hammering thereby leading me to believe that you are indeed the last scum. What gave you the change of heart about me from pre-PF yesterday into today, eldarad?

In part, precisely because this Day seems to have been set up so as to limit our (ie my and Incog's) actions, made me wonder

why

the Day was framed in those terms.

Pre-PokerFace, I had you nailed as scum as part of an Erg0 pairing. Your reaction to the claim was pro-town. Elmo only got excited about the claim when he got to do some maths about it.

Then, I wonder about how the mafia chose its NK last Night. Of course it's all laden with WIFOM, but Incogscum could make their life easier by NK'ing Elmo - Mizzy would have happily lynched me Yesterday given half a chance. Also, Elmoscum only has one choice for the NK (Mizzy) whereas Incogscum would have to choose between the two. So that's a factor in my mind, even if I wouldn't want to construct a case around it.

Quite; I'd be interested in hearing the stated explanation, too. You seem to have moved very readily from pushing a case against Incognito for all of yesterday to firmly wanting to lynch me today, when yesterday you apparently agreed to follow through a plan which would relied upon me being pro-town.

I didn't "apparently agree" - I agreed. What reasons do you have for suggesting that my agreement was not sincere?

I'd note that I've been saying Incognito looks town to me, and it'd be much easier for ScumEldarad to try and get him to vote me than vice versa; I don't see any other basis for that change in your position. Or is that another epiphany?

Do you regard yourself as "cleared"?
All I see is someone who was lynched on Day 1, and had Mizzy use her governor role to save you.
For Elmoscum to be plausible, we have to believe that Tar and Erg0 were prepared to bus Elmo on Day 1. I don't find that to be a huge leap of faith.

It just seems like Elmo has been skating through the game as an 'innocent' without anyone questioning why he is seen in that light, or else other people have demanded more immediate attention and Elmo has just quietly sailed through.

What, specifically, is your opinion of PokerFace's play yesterday? (Beyond just 'horrible', I mean.)

Just horrendous.
Specifically, the gambit PokerFace ran was pretty useless in this instance - scum would refuse to hammer because it would result in an autoloss, town would also refuse to hammer because it would result in an autoloss. So it was impossible to determine someone's alignment by seeing how they reacted to the demand to hammer.
It seems like PokerFace was worried that the last mafia would 'give up' and hammer him despite thinking he was a Supersaint. (I guess it would also be possible for the mafia to see through the claim and go along with the plan, gambling on the Supersaint claim being fake.)
Notwithstanding the difference in pace, I would suggest that the quality of players in this game is somewhat superior to the players who PF tried that gambit on successfully on IRC.
Overall, I think PokerFace harmed the town's chances more than he helped it.

Probably the biggest thing that I can see that leads me to believe eldarad is town has to be his reaction to my plan of action. Looking at the time stamps, I made my plan-of-action post on August 16th, at 1:21 P.M. and within minutes, eldarad immediately agreed with the plan and even went further to outline the plan's full potential:

The alternative to lynching PF for you guys I guess could be deciding which of the two (me or eldarad) is more likely to be scum and lynching one of us today. If we lynch wrong, then the situation can be evaluated tomorrow and a decision could be made about whether to believe PF or to believe the person who was not lynched today.

I agree with this if people are fairly happy with PokerFace's claim.

From my POV, if PokerFace is town then if I hammer the town loses since we lose 3 townies - 2 from the lynch plus a NK - which leaves 1 scum vs 1 townie at dawn.

My next step - depending on how Elmo and Mizzy reacted - was likely going to be:
"I'm not hammering PokerFace. If you think that makes me scum, lynch me instead"

If we lynch Incog Today and I'm still alive Tomorrow I'll hammer PF. I promise.
If Incog is willing to commit to the same then I'll be happy regardless of whether Incog or I get lynched Today.

and then again:

In fact, unless Mizzy or Elmo are scum, that guarantees a town win.

1) Lynch me Today, Tomorrow Incog hammers PokerFace;
2) Lynch Incog Today, Tomorrow I hammer PokerFace.

If one of us refuses to hammer PokerFace, just lynch us instead.

If PokerFace is lying scum then we will hammer him Tomorrow and win.
If PokerFace is telling the truth and one of {eldarad, Incog} are scum, then the scum will be killed either by lynching Today or by hammering PokerFace Tomorrow (or, more likely, refusing to hammer the Supersaint - so then everyone votes for the person refusing to hammer)

Have I missed something here?

eldarad, when you reacted to my plan, how likely (in terms of percentages or something) did you think it was that I would be chosen as the Day 5 lynch as opposed to you?

My gambit did help you two realize you were both town. My gambit contributed to that. It porobably didn't do all the convincing/work, but nevertheless it had a desirable effect towards a town win.

The gambit has 3 successes no fails,

when fully run to date

. I tested it again purposly on irc 2 days ago. In all 3 of those cases I was correct on who was scum before the gambit began and the person I thought was scum was lightly going through the motions

and "thought" I was supicious pre-gambit.

This time around I was incorrect and the person I thought was scum was not insisting I was scum (I mentioned the gambit may work better on a scum in incognito's postion). And so Ironically I ended up suspecting him some during the end of that day. And thanks to this overall back step running of the gambit I think I have developed a new tell to account for in a scenario where my guess of who is scum pre-gambit is wrong.

I have run this gambit/played off of and with this playstyle as vanilla and as "really" super saint on IRC (3 times as nilla 7 times really super saint), so perhaps the absence of change in the playstyles aids its effectiveness. the fact you can't rely on me bluffing still makes people NK me, avoid hammering me at all costs or, give up even before things reach the final day.

Overall though, after I was lynched and my head was clearer, it was obvious Elmo was scum. That's the conclusion I cam to just before day 6 started. Of all people Elmo took the time to analize Incog vs Elderad during that day, when he himself significantly thought I was scum. Why do the extra effort if you've already done the job? Its because the job wasn't done he knew the game was continuing. If he was town he would have only made post 953 and he certainly wouldn't have made it after my self hammer. Posts 932, 944, and 946 would not be made analyzing 2 players if he had already thought I was scum.

I didn't think like this at the time on day 5 since I was so focused on finding an answer to Incog vs Elderad. Things are always more obvious when you are no longer involved. After All Why would Erg0 vote Elmo over Cow on day 1? Did he not say Cow was more suspicious. That was obv busage in hindsight and Erg0's 55th post...

A couple of points:
1. When I made that Elmo vote there were less than 24 hours until the deadline.
2. Elmo had three votes when I voted for him - PokerFace was also on the wagon.

At the point when I made my Tar vote there were still a number of uncommitted players that I felt might jump on the wagon if I started it. Given the complete lack of interest that my vote provoked, there was no way that I was going to be able to push a Tar wagon in 17 hours, especially with the gathering of votes on Elmo in the meantime. Your post above is a pretty serious misrepresentation of the situation, and it worries me that more than one person has apparently accepted it as the truth without going back and checking for themselves.

That aside, I'm perfectly happy with my Elmo vote in hindsight. I feel like the case on Elmo was valid at the time, and I still have difficulty understanding the reason that he held off on claiming for so long. We now know that hasdgfas was town, so he certainly wasn't a better target. Looking at the situation pragmatically, there were two possible lynches and I voted for the one I thought was scummier.

Obv over distancing. Elmo did like to buddy up to Incog too saying all that proxy stuff, and saying "I think incog is town" alot. Tar just didn't come off as an individual that would bus so hardcore to me. I guess my read of him there was off. But he did attack Erg0 day one so I should have considered that with respect to Elmo.

So in general I think my gambit did more then openly seen. It certainly didn't solve everything, but I still think it is incredibly powerful under the right circumstances. If you can't admit it is at least somewhat useful then you must be blind. I wonder how useful it would have been if its target was Elmo. I too easily let Tar's actions discredit Elmo's scuminess, and had I ignored that and made a case on Elmo I think my town supersaint gambit would of had some wicked effectiveness. I doubt I can convince you all to believe that, but I don't see Elmo as the giving up type. So him nightkilling me or avoiding harming me, I think would happened.

And as far as IRC's being not as good as the players here that is untrue. Fake claiming is an artform on irc with the level of crazy roles that actually exist. People on irc are way more imaginitive then anyone on MS. The best MS fake claim award last year went to something that is childs play by IRC fake claim standards. I believe/know IRCers to be better fake claimers mainly because they have to be in order to survive. Massclaims happen so often that you got to be a good fake claimer or you are screwed day 1. So I would say those I play with on IRC are just as skilled as you people here overall. Some may be better than you guys with respect to certain situations and vice versa, but overall I would say levels are generally equal.

People on MS are more held down to their own wiki and set principles. Too many are worried that if they spontaneously go with what feels right based on vibes, that they will get lynched later if their wrong. So what if you are wrong just do it. And too many people truly do criticize those that dare to be different. One like myself has to BS and adapt to your stupid priniciples all too often just to try to get you to listen. And even then you don't give it a chance. One's mind must always be open to learning and new ideas or they truly aren't going to get anywhere in life.

Don't shout WIFOM, I won't answer. You can't do something like that in a real life court room. Say I still think this way

and explain why your ideas are more sencible.

At the very least listen to people and just don't say they are scum by default and lynch them anyway. If Mizzy ever really suspected Elderad and Elmo she would have not been so bent on lynching me just cause she couldn't read me with that FoS stuff. How do you think I got the name PokerFace? I did not think of it myself. It was given to me on irc by people who can't read how easily I go under the radar as town and as scum. After they gave it to me is when I started using the name. I have

notably

done it as both it is my playstyle regardless of alignment. Answered all of Mizzy's supicions of me and yet she still chose just to listen to Elmo and incog.Always decide for yourself. Make your own decision. You can't rely on others for if you are too trusting you will get burned. And yet her stubborness is partly why I came up with using such an unconventional game plan that relied on a practically retired gambit of mine. So no I ain't mad at you Mizzy. Even though you pardoned Elmo I ain't mad. So you bet I still gladly want and need to play with both you and Ether more often.

When scum hunting you should be willing to listen to others but trust only yourself. And if a known scum brings up a case on someone, block it out. Make your own decision regardless of anything their tainted judgment said. They are the last ones you ever want to trust. My lynch was super setup.

I so deserve a cop out or scapegoat award for that mess. How many times did you guys frame me, and invite me to play cards in the wired room?

My lynch was more setup then the ending/sequel for the recent Batman movies for crying out loud. A blind man could have seen it coming with scum killing Ether over the cop. Obv Obv for crying out loud!

Overall the game was fun for me and I feel I helped out some despite whatever your views of my actions may say. I am proud of myself always. If you want to criticize me, please do. I am open to others opinions.

I am curious to what Elderad had in mind for my sig so let me hear it.

And let me hear gambit criticism too. I can improve that thing even further for other runnings. I rarely get lynched on IRC and have been out of practice on running gambits for awhile now. To many people confused and beaten by my general play since so many newbs are just starting to play on there. IRC vets = MS vets skill wise, but newbs are always pwnable. They act scummier than I do no matter what alignment they have.

Until later I say gg game and if I think of ways to crticize you guys further or whatever I'll let you know and respond to what not later. GG.

And OGML, your flavor about a drunk me should have included the obnoxious part about my character. The part where I claimed to touch the girls back and practically get throw out or yelled at for it.

Still good overall flavor though. Later all GG.

[PokerFace]

In truth I have

NEVER

really relied on meta before. That's right, I bullshited on wanting to look at meta shit just to get some people off my back. BUT that's only part of the reason I did it. I also did it because I actually wanted to try to use some of that stuff to enhance my knowledge of players I don't play enough with. I play with Erg0 and Tar alot in theme games and they have always been town with me in those games so I never took the time to meta them.

I only really meta-ed SSK, Ether, incog, Cow, and Mizzy. And none of them were scum. It appears SSK can now lurk like hell as town too.

[PokerFace]

I also did it because there were alot of people saying Mizzy looks like Mizzy from this game, and SSK looks like this and Ether looks like this. I didn't know WTF you guys were talking about there so I wanted to try and get an understanding for what a good number of you were talking about. I was partially adapting my style too much based on what others were saying

[PokerFace]

So, um, now that we won, we should totally watch some dancing girls.

/in

Somebody ressurect me, Damnit! Or spend time convincing me and the girls that necrophilia is good.

[PokerFace]

When I was running this club we wouldn't have stood for that sort of thing.

Well the whole point of a lap dance is that you are sitting down.

[PokerFace]

Do what now? I kinda like the title in the title fairy I am already getting or are you noming me for something else here?

That necrophila thing was meant as a joke. I got a really diverse sence of humor. Did no one laugh at that comment? Don't tell me you guys thought I was trying to make an actual serious comment, cause I wasn't. I never take anything too seriously. I don't care who gets pissed off at my gambits and what not. This is the internet for crying out loud. Who the hell would care about their reputation on a website? I used that lie to garner support for my true belief that I didn't want to hurt the town.

In all the previous runnings of that gambit I was correct on who was scum pre-gambit. This time I was way off. Niether elderad or Incognito went into a panic of effort to get the other lynched. They stopped and assumed they had won which is what a townie would do in that situation under the impression scum had to be among us three. I was too focused and convinced i was right since that gambit had never been used in the wrong situation. So it looked like they were both giving up and if one of them was scum and giving up without an imediate confession, then they could follow the motions and win. And that would have been fail. I never planned for that scenario since I had never seen myself so wrong before running that thing.

As townie and as supersaint when I have run this thing I was always right before. And so there was never a need to plan out that part. I played bad as town at various parts in this game because I was a little disinterested. Ether noticed how little I was posting and the quality of the posts. If I was more interested role or whatever wise in this game compared to my other games, I think I would of had better motivation to play well. I enjoy being power with well planned actions of vigery or coping too much since they are everywhere on irc. When I play as nilla in forum and I just give a lack luster performance too often. I normally play like this when I have no night action (Supersaints got no night action). So I didn't think of even trying the gambit until mizzy okayed the mass claim. Then I just ran with it since nilla and supersaint play style are same for me. If I want to actually use my power as supersaint I kinda purposely got to play bad and here I just kinda allowed myself to do it. I wish I hadn't and just spent more time trying to get myself into it by enjoying the aspects of scum hunting nillas must rely on.

At any rate can I get a link to the quick topic and can OGML edit/update his actions post. I want to know who was investigated and how many times I was framed. I'd like a link to the scum quick topic if someone would be willing to hook me up.

@Elderad,

out of curiosity and comedy what did you want me to add to me sig at the start of the day?

@Ether,

what now about what nom?

[PokerFace]

I inv tar night one (guilty), ether night two (innocent), and ergo night three (guilty). On night two it was really between four people; ether, elderad, ergo, and mizzy (I was uncertain with all of them). Since I was not sure if I was going to get an inv that night I merely chose a name out of the hat. My night 4 inv, ftr, was elderad.

So you never suspected me and just voted Cow showing no reasons because you thought he was scum for what you said later. Interesting.

I still think I got framed at one point or another but I guess it didn't matter if you never investigated or suspected me. Still want to know how many times I was framed and see the quicktopic though

[PokerFace]

Do what now? I kinda like the title in the title fairy I am already getting or are you noming me for something else here?

Sorry, didn't notice that. If you want that more, I won't go to the thread.

I'll think about it and get back to you aim sometime or something. Just pm me what you have in mind and maybe I'll pick that instead.

Incog's role PMs for the mafia included the link to the quicktopic thread:
http://www.quicktopic.com/41/H/dpQDwehgLi3

@Elderad, out of curiosity and comedy what did you want me to add to me sig at the start of the day?

I think now is a good time for me to shut up and just be grateful that we won.

Doh' I need to be more observant since I did not see the links in the scum pms earlier.

If you don't want to tell me, its cool. I got a good sence of humor and often particpate in insult comedy and the aristocrats joke with my acting buddies. So I just wanted to hear it for the lulz since I laugh at everything. I am glad we won too and that I was wrong. it allows me to prepare and get idea of a possible scenario for when that gambit is run with the wrong target. GG elderad. I glad I was wrong and that you and incog got the right scum lynched the next day.

[PokerFace]

I was framed nights 2 and 3 acording the the quick topics. two nights instead of just one. I was big scapgoat this game. Cow was never framed and scot never investigated him. Now that be a wild card.

I wonder why Scot never suspected me. oh well.

[PokerFace]

That makes sence investigation wise on not checking cow. I just kinda wish everybody thought like you with respect to me. So I was a little surprised you, Pat, and Eld (originally) thought I was town while Mizzy and incog, Glork and Ether (Kinda) thought differently. Oh well. GG

And though about Ether's title and I much prefer the one I'm getting for Loser Mafia over this title. The gambit was not run to its intended potential here so I don't think I'll be taking SuperFeint or anything along those lines. It did work well but I certainly did not plan it. I planned things out in Loser Mafia as scum somewhat. "Most"things went according to plan in that game and I still won despite the enormous headaches I got when I thought my plans were destined to fail.

[PokerFace]

I received this PM when day 2 started, if anyone cares:

Walking towards your car from the club, you notice the street light you had parked under has gone out. This alley is a lot more sinister without it. You nervously reach for your keys when you hear a sound behind you. Spinning around, your shout is muffled by a damp cloth over your mouth. The face of your assailant is all too familiar as the chloroform sends you into a dreamless sleep you never wake up from.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

You have been murdered. This means no more posting until the game is over. Big thanks for playing in my first game, and please come back for the post game discussion!

Nice, i like this interesting death flavor.

I was bored a bit being nilla through the game but that did kinda work towards me utilizing that gambit when I fell into my general no-night action playstyle. What was somewhat somber/bad play eventually lended to a rather good haphazard move that was very entertaining and fun at the time but more so now. I started out liking this game for its players and having high hopes for a good game. Then I lost track of things for various reasons loosing motivation. But somehow I bizarrly made use of what i had turning "process of elimination (default) lynch" bad luck into good luck. Or rather it didn't turn good until you guys looked into it after my death. You guys fixed the puzzle I broke and shook. In the end I had about as much fun as I hope for this game. Thanks for the flavor and good times OGML. GG all

[PokerFace]

Nice flavor OGML