Mini 621 - Pantsville (Game over!)

[Quagmire]

hi

[Quagmire]

I don't feel like rereading right now, can people sum up what's happened so far to me so that I can get an abriged history of this game?

[Quagmire]

As far as I'm concerned, it went like this -

I roleclaimed Unnightkillable Townie (or something similar)
Everyone told me to shutup, so I did, and since then I've been watching, and waiting for day 2 basically, when I can bring something a little more interesting to the table.

Yeah, that's the problem. A, there's absolutly no good reason for you to claim unnightkillable, since you were under no pressure, had no reason to claim, and the claim only helps the scum if you're telling the truth, and B, it's not unusual for a scum godfather or a SK to be unnightkillable anyway.

Agreed. That's all I need to know. An unNKable townie is a pretty useless role anyway, so even if he was telling the truth, it doesn't hurt the town that much. The potential here to lynch an SK of GF is way too great.

vote reborn537

[Quagmire]

I don't feel like rereading right now, can people sum up what's happened so far to me so that I can get an abriged history of this game?

No.

ok well i guess i won't know what happened before page 5 then

[Quagmire]

Alright...

if I really had to guess, which I really dislike doing, because I am so gullible, and believe it when people say they are innocent ...

I find reborn suspicious, because his roleclaim is just terrible...
I also am curious to know why clammy said that he felt that ClockworkRuse was a liar...

Other than that, I really don't find anyone suspicious...

It doesn't even matter who is suspicious and who isn't. All that matters is that there's a reasonable chance that reborn is a major antitown power role. Even if we're wrong, whoop-e-whoop, we lose a townie.

[Quagmire]

reborn, if you get put at L-1, then you can talk about your role, until then, please don't.

Quagmire, your calling for reborn's lynch seems a little premature. How exactly have you come to the conclusion that "there's a reasonable chance that reborn is a major antitown power role"?

Okay. Here are a list of roles that are NK immune:

-NK Immune townies
-mafia godfathers
-serial killers

of those, two of them are what we want to kill. NK immune claims out of the dark are too convenient and perfect for me to believe them. If we're wrong, and he actually is an NK immune townie, then oh well, we've lost a p shitty town role.

It's not a power role either, by the way. It's just a town role. I'll gladly take that chance day one.

Although considering reborn's last post, i'm inclined to think that he may actually be a power role, but I want to keep the pressure on because it's reasonable to think that he might be gambiting.

[Quagmire]

Those are the list of NORMAL roles that are NK immune. What is to say that the mod didn't make up a new role?

-this is a mini normal
-i'm working off of what came out of the horse's mouth only

[Quagmire]

Anyway, Quag, right now we're trying to decide if we lynch chenhsi for being a lurkerscum or if we lynch reborn for a scummy-as-hell psudoclaim.

Of course those aren't our only choices. But those are the two people I'm trying to pressure right now.

This comment and the explanation for the comment still don't sit right with me. It still sounds to me like you were trying to frame the debate for the Day and reduce the lynch choices down to Chenhsi and reborn.

Unvote: Chenhsi
Vote: Yosarian 2

Well...that's a dumb vote because reborn is our play today.

[Quagmire]

I think that I'm interpreting a few things differently from the rest of the group here. First off, I think that ClockworkRuse was correct when he stated that guzame was fishing; reborn made a horrible, horrible town play, but I think that's the result of being relatively new to Internet Mafia. I think reborn is newbie town, and I think that guzame pressing for more information about reborns role is fishing. It's not necessarily scummy in this situation, but it was still fishing, and ClockworkRuse was right to label it so. In fact, this is specifically what I was referring to when I said that ClockworkRuse was making sense.

This made things that much more suspicious when ClockworkRuse quickly recanted his statement under the guise of a joke when one player didn't like it. If somebody feels an action you've done is scummy, I don't understand why one would choose the "I Was Joking" Defense instead of the "It's Not Suspicious Because Of X, Y, And Z" Defense, particularly when guzame WAS fishing.

When I told reborn to shut up about his role, I intended to look closely at who kept talking and speculating about what reborn could be. Unfortunately, that included most of you, and reborn elaborated even further. SHAME ON ALL OF YOU.

At this point I feel that Guzame is the best bet for today, but I agree that the joking recant of ClockworkRuse is suspicious.

Unvote, Vote guzame.

Incidentally, I do not like Quagmire's suggested course of actions. If there's one thing I've learned from this site, trying to outguess the moderator is never a good idea.

1) I am not trying to outguess the mod, at all. I'm not trying to outguess anyone. I was given a random-ass NK-immune townie claim out of nowhere and I think it's totally plausible that he could be an overeager SK or godfather trying to clear his name right away. That has nothing to do with the mod.

2) I

hate hate hate

it when people try to use rolefishing as a legitimate scumtell. It's not. By voting for reborn, I am fishing. He says he has more information than just NK immune townie that he conveniently withheld. I don't buy it for a second, I'm calling his bluff. I'm fishing for more info. I want reborn to elaborate everything about his role at this point that would clear him if he's town.

[Quagmire]

I hate hate hate it when people try to use rolefishing as a legitimate scumtell. It's not. By voting for reborn, I am fishing. He says he has more information than just NK immune townie that he conveniently withheld. I don't buy it for a second, I'm calling his bluff. I'm fishing for more info. I want reborn to elaborate everything about his role at this point that would clear him if he's town.

I see what you're saying, but wouldn't it be better to leave this at least until Day 2? Someone else may be able to investigate reborn and find out more, or he may be boxed into a corner by then, if he is scum. He's certainly on everyone's radar now.

I don't know what his deal is, but if he is some super power role, I want that to remain in our arsenal, and to remain a secret.

If he's a power role, and NK immune like he says he is, then we have nothing to worry about, because there's no way he gets killed at night. I don't want to waste a cop investigation on him at all, considering that we can find tons of information simply from paying attention to him.

[Quagmire]

I hate hate hate it when people try to use rolefishing as a legitimate scumtell. It's not. By voting for reborn, I am fishing. He says he has more information than just NK immune townie that he conveniently withheld. I don't buy it for a second, I'm calling his bluff. I'm fishing for more info. I want reborn to elaborate everything about his role at this point that would clear him if he's town.

I see what you're saying, but wouldn't it be better to leave this at least until Day 2? Someone else may be able to investigate reborn and find out more, or he may be boxed into a corner by then, if he is scum. He's certainly on everyone's radar now.

I don't know what his deal is, but if he is some super power role, I want that to remain in our arsenal, and to remain a secret.

If he's a power role, and NK immune like he says he is, then we have nothing to worry about, because there's no way he gets killed at night. I don't want to waste a cop investigation on him at all, considering that we can find tons of information simply from paying attention to him.

Cop isn't the only one that could clear me. Tracker could, certainly, and a couple of others could corroborate half of my role if I end up having to give away the whole of it. Which I'm hoping not.

Quag, he's how I'm seeing your vote on me at the moment - I have roleclaimed a townie who is invulnerable at night... so you are trying to kill me during the day. Scummy, much?

How is it scummy? I don't believe your claim and I want to hear more.

[Quagmire]

I still don't like this claim. At all. He has a gun.

[Quagmire]

Yos still reads a loooot like scum to me. Go with me on this, people.

Yeah, pretty sure no one's going to blindly follow you if you're not willing to make an actual argument, Lowell.

I think you underestimate my stupidity

On a serious note, I don't really like how your post sounds, it's more of a gut thing than anything else.

Uh? Is there something wrong with me wanting Lowell to actually make a case against me instead of just saying "yos is scum" for no reason?

yos, quit while you're ahead, before I vote for you too

[Quagmire]

Yos still reads a loooot like scum to me. Go with me on this, people.

Yeah, pretty sure no one's going to blindly follow you if you're not willing to make an actual argument, Lowell.

I think you underestimate my stupidity

On a serious note, I don't really like how your post sounds, it's more of a gut thing than anything else.

Uh? Is there something wrong with me wanting Lowell to actually make a case against me instead of just saying "yos is scum" for no reason?

I mean that as in your last two posts have been legitimate mafia tells.

yos, quit while you're ahead, before I vote for you too

[Quagmire]

Yos still reads a loooot like scum to me. Go with me on this, people.

Yeah, pretty sure no one's going to blindly follow you if you're not willing to make an actual argument, Lowell.

I think you underestimate my stupidity

On a serious note, I don't really like how your post sounds, it's more of a gut thing than anything else.

Uh? Is there something wrong with me wanting Lowell to actually make a case against me instead of just saying "yos is scum" for no reason?

yos, quit while you're ahead, before I vote for you too

I mean that as in you're making legitimate mafia tells.

My post above this one was a fuckup. Mod please delete.

[Quagmire]

Like what?

I'd prefer not to say and examine it more fully during the day.

[Quagmire]

More people on the chenhsi wagon please.

It's pretty clear he's a newbie but I'm leaning towards him being newbie scum. As mentioned, his play earlier on was incredibly over-reactive and he has been called out on it. Since then chenhsi has almost completely shut up. I'm guessing he's doing this because he wants to lie low. This is a pro-survival play but anti-town.

Huh?

I didn't post, because I felt like there was nothing to say.

I don't post much if I have nothing to contribute.

I posted in the other game because I had somthing to contribute (my roleclaim).

This strikes me as someone who is uninterested in scum-hunting. Could it be that he already knows who's scum?

@ chenhsi: What do you think of reborn's claim? Do you have thoughts on any of the players?

Bad case.

unvote, vote yosarian2

I agree with Lowell. He's scum.

[Quagmire]

Hmmm...no, that's not right. Since I'm basing this mostly on Quagmire's bizzare actions here (Attacking me for trying to draw Lowell out into coversation, then refusing to say why, and then voting me when I continue to ask Lowell question) the correct move is to lynch Quagmire first and then lynch Lowell tommorow when quagmire comes up scum.

unvote

vote:Quagmire

Not that it really matters, since they're obv both scum, but might as well do this the proper way.

I had my reasons for voting you. I still do -- I didn't want to reveal them. I will soon though.

This attack seems forced.

[Quagmire]

Not at all.

I was pretty obviously trying to bait Lowell out into an argument, into committing to something, so I could get a read on him since he hasn't said much yet that was useful, and I was surprised to see you suddenly jump in and broadside me out of nowhere in response. Not only did you do that, even more interesting was that you actually seemed to be threating to vote me if I didn't stop doing that, and then refused to explain exactally why you were threatening me. So, obv, I kept demanding answers from Lowell, partly because I still want an explination but mostly because I wanted to see how you would react.

1) I'm voting for you for a totally different reason from Lowell, I think. I honestly have no idea whhy he's voting for you, despite his explanation a post or two above. Keep in mind that I still have not read pages 1-4.
2) Never was I trying to get you to stop asking Lowell questions. In fact, at this point, I encourage it.

[Quagmire]

Then what, exactally, was that "stop it or I'm going to vote for you" post about?

You were starting to be scummy. I was telling you to stop being scummy before I voted for you. That has now morphed into a "you're full out scummy" aura.

[Quagmire]

So, are you claiming that you didn't know that I was trying to bait Lowell into the open, or that you didn't realize you were stopping me from doing so with the timing of your attacks, Quagmire? Because that's pretty much the only thing I did during the period where you went from not being suspicious of me at all to the period where you somehow magically became convinced I was scum for reasons you're not explaning.

I'll explain them when I get really bored at work. This generally happens in the afternoon. Right now I'm still making my baseball news/views rounds, so I still have stuff to do that isn't mafiascum.net/forum.

Also, yes, I was aware that you were baiting Lowell into the open.

[Quagmire]

Not at all.

I was pretty obviously trying to bait Lowell out into an argument, into committing to something, so I could get a read on him since he hasn't said much yet that was useful, and I was surprised to see you suddenly jump in and broadside me out of nowhere in response. Not only did you do that, even more interesting was that you actually seemed to be threating to vote me if I didn't stop doing that, and then refused to explain exactally why you were threatening me. So, obv, I kept demanding answers from Lowell, partly because I still want an explination but mostly because I wanted to see how you would react.

This is BS. Lowell has committed to everything in the world by voting for you, you just wanted him to explain his vote.

See, here's how I remember the scenario:
1) Lowell says "hey, yosarian is scum, go with me on this one guys."
2) Yosarian asks for an explanation of the vote, which concerned me a bit. Why in the world would he be concerned with one person who is voting for him just because the person voting for him says, "he's scum guys, follow me?" Certainly not someone who is town-aligned, that's for sure.
3) Yosarian continues being overly concerned with Lowell's vote. He never really asks him to explain his vote just once, but he persists it as its the focal point of every single one of his posts a page or two ago.
4) I realize that yosarian's mafia and vote him.
5) Yosarian OMGUS votes not only Lowell, but me, too.
6) Yosarian makes up this post, totally out of his ass, under the idea that Lowell "didn't commit" to anything. Don't buy it. Also,

7)

How have I been "cautious" this game? Especally considering that when you voted me, i only made 5 posts because I was away at Starkidum for that weekend; and of those 5 posts, almost all of them were attacks on someone.

And how was that post "opportunistic", exacatally? It's not like I was saying anything new; I'd already said before that that I was suspicious of Reborn's claim and that I didn't like chenhsi's lurking,

(Also, why does everyone on mafiascum now think they have a meta on me, and why are they all wrong and only attack me with those "Yos isn't acting like Yos" arguments when I'm town? Not really a question, it's just getting really annoying.)

Back to the point, Lowell; why have you not really commented on anything except for me all game?

Everything in this post screams mafia.

[Quagmire]

Not at all.

I was pretty obviously trying to bait Lowell out into an argument, into committing to something, so I could get a read on him since he hasn't said much yet that was useful, and I was surprised to see you suddenly jump in and broadside me out of nowhere in response. Not only did you do that, even more interesting was that you actually seemed to be threating to vote me if I didn't stop doing that, and then refused to explain exactally why you were threatening me. So, obv, I kept demanding answers from Lowell, partly because I still want an explination but mostly because I wanted to see how you would react.

This is BS. Lowell has committed to everything in the world by voting for you, you just wanted him to explain his vote.

See, here's how I remember the scenario:
1) Lowell says "hey, yosarian is scum, go with me on this one guys."
2) Yosarian asks for an explanation of the vote, which concerned me a bit. Why in the world would he be concerned with one person who is voting for him just because the person voting for him says, "he's scum guys, follow me?" Certainly not someone who is town-aligned, that's for sure.
3) Yosarian continues being overly concerned with Lowell's vote. He never really asks him to explain his vote just once, but he persists it as its the focal point of every single one of his posts a page or two ago.
4) I realize that yosarian's mafia and vote him.
5) Yosarian OMGUS votes not only Lowell, but me, too.
6) Yosarian makes up this post, totally out of his ass, under the idea that Lowell "didn't commit" to anything. Don't buy it. Also,

Bull.

First of all, Lowell voted me, and then repeated "Hey, Yos is scum", without saying anything else about the game. He never commented on any of the reborn stuff, he never commented on the lurker wagon, anything. All he said was "Yos is scum". So, I tried to bait him out into the open and get him to explain why he thought I was scum, so I could get a read on him; especally since I was now in the market for a new bandwagon after reborn gave a claim I thought was pretty unlikely to come from a newbie scum in this situation.

That's cool and all, but...why would you do that? Why would you be so concerned and focused on one person voting for you?

Your "a townie should never be concerned about one vote" argument is completly BS. Every townie should always fully respond to every attack, always. Ignoring attacks and hoping they go away is a scum tactic, townies want stuff like that in the open. You're trying to use the "overdefensive" BS meta against me, and it's complete crap.

It's not a BS meta. He simply said, "hey, yos is scum, follow me." Nobody was going to take him seriously because he didn't have any content, you knew that. Why should anyone take it seriously?
..I don't know, that's why I'm voting for you.

PS: I always always always ignore votes on me whenever I'm not being bandwagoned. I simply don't care about it. I have more important things to do than defend myself from one pointless vote.

And yes, part of the reason I kept pressing Lowell for information was because you didn't seem to want me to do that. When you reacted in the way I half-expected you to, I figured out you were protecting Lowell for some reason and voted you.

Everything in this post screams mafia.

...why, because I'm defending myself logically against a bad attack? How is it scummy to do that?

That's exactly what you'd say as mafia, that's why.

[Quagmire]

Yosarian asks for an explanation of the vote, which concerned me a bit. Why in the world would he be concerned with one person who is voting for him just because the person voting for him says, "he's scum guys, follow me?" Certainly not someone who is town-aligned, that's for sure.

This is a specious argument. It is perfectly reasonable for a townie to have his radar set off by accusations that are not accompanied by arguments.

No it's not. It's stupid. It's anti-town.

Also, have you read the first 4 pages of the game yet? I'm not sure if this was a joke, but if it was, it's pretty lame, and if it wasn't, please get yourself up to speed.

no, i haven't read 1-4, and i don't plan on it. i said i was waiting on a summary from everyone and yosarian gave me one.

After I did a reread, I really don't like ClockworkRuse. He FoS's Gauzame, then recants and says it was a joke when he gets some flack for it. That's the lie that clammy thinks he he told - lying about the FoS being a joke. Clammy was right.

Vote: ClockworkRuse

So...right now I'm thinking Farkinsonsoup or whatever your name is and yosarian.

[Quagmire]

That's cool and all, but...why would you do that? Why would you be so concerned and focused on one person voting for you?

(shrug) I always try to respond to attacks against me. I just think that's a more pro-town way to act then ignoring attacks against you is. Only reason I didn't respond to his initial vote was because I was too focued with other issues, like reborn.

And, again, I found it concerning he seemed to be using his "Yos is scum" thing to look like he was participating while not actually commenting on anything else, so I wanted him to explain it more.

It wasn't really an attack on you, it was just a declaration. "He is mafia. Please follow me." And did you really just say that you did it because you want to be conceived as more pro-town?

And yeah, overdefensive is a BS meta, because everyone should always defend themselves; if someone's attacking you, even if it's just one person and even if it's a minor, unexplained FOS or whatever, I think you should always try to respond to it if you're pro-town; it's the best way to both clear up any misunderstandings, to shoot down any flawed logic a person might be using, and to get a read on the other person based on how he makes his case on you.

I don't want to get into this argument here. Maybe on scumchat sometime, getting bogged down with mafia theory and crap like that shouldn't be in individual games.

If someone is attacking me when I'm town, I'm always going to try to figure out why they've come to the incorrect conclusion that I'm scum, and then point out the holes in their logic to them and to the rest of the town. In the process I can also often get a good idea of if the person attacking me is town or scum. Why would I ever NOT want to do that?

Because every time you do it, it's OMGUS? That's not really what you did; it was much more "slithering for information" instead of "open questioning."