Mini #618 - Farside of the moon - over!

[Cephrir]

/confirm

[Cephrir]

Vote: StrangerCoug

Because I feel like it.

[Cephrir]

Wow, page 2 claim, good times. The Dokter seems to be... unsure how serious he's going to take this? It was kinda like, one minute it's "OMG I'M GONNA GET LYNCHED", then it's "Wow you guys take this too seriously". Not sure what to think. I find iceman's immediate dismissal of the tell a bit scummy as well, and Dok buddied up to him for it. I think both he and dcorbe are overreacting.

Unvote

, btw.

[Cephrir]

This whole debate is a series of overreactions by dcorbe and DP, but DP has committed some legitimate scumtells, mostly with the unneeded claim COMPLETELY out of left field. Hm... I think I'll leave my vote out of it for now. This definitely gives me some stuff to think about, and in the event that DP ever comes up in mind, I have two players in mind who would be likely scumpartners. A lot of players are giving me weird vibes at the moment in addition to the two I have in mind. Also, StrangerCoug, your most recent post is relatively hypocritical.

[Cephrir]

Little note so that I dont get called out later for not mentioning it-- if Per is scum, the two partners I mentioned are icemanE and StrangerCoug.

In other news,

FoS: Gatekeeper

for expressing willingness to lynch a townie.

[Cephrir]

He claims townie, yet his posts (such as the roleclaim and the quick defenses at a low lynch number) gives off scum vibes.

No, I mean, you suggested that lynching him would be OK even if he were town.

Why icemanE?

For completely dismissing the early claim? It's not a big thing, just something I want to remember.

Yes, the claim seems very off to me, unnecessary of course, but perhaps this is his playstyle.

[Cephrir]

I'm not sure how I'm tied to Dok, if he turns up scum, Cephir. I think his chance of being scum is equal to the chance that he has a very strange idea about how mafia works - that somehow you aren't supposed to lynch because it isn't fun. Dok, that's how the game works man.

Mm. My other suspect is a stronger link.

He has been the main point of debate. (aside from points here and there) He says he is for fun and yet that we are taking it to serious, but that is part of the game. In the end he basicly claimed to not have any power.If he had any power that would make him a target for a nightkill, and I don't think if he had a power-role he wouldn't roleclaim.

Lynching townies is never good. I don't care how useful it is. If you actually think he's scum, that's a different story, but I don't think you do. Well, now I know where I'll go with my suspicions if DP isn't scum; your attitude suggests to me that you know he's town.

My only real concern is that Dok is actually breadcruming that he is a power role, and he is using this seemingly pointless argument in order to distract the mafia. However, his behavior is still highly suspect and will need further review.

How could he be breadcrumbing a power role... he's already claimed vanilla.

[Cephrir]

after breadcrumbing Mafia

Except that nobody would ever do that. We really need a better word for this. It's more of a slip-up, though whether that even was a slip-up is arguable.

[Cephrir]

Fourth reason. If I survive today, I will most likely be Mafia proof for the rest of the game. (That's not really a reason, but hey, I'm a big silly)

Huh?

After reading your last post,Dok, I strongly believe you are mafia. I apologize if I am wrong, but you seem very scummy in your long winded defense. Without the ability to see your past play style, I cannot defend you in that manner. Additionally, I have seen novice mafia play the noobie card or play without any seriousness in their game. So:

vote: Dokter Per

fixed

I can't fault your logic.

Huh? Admittance of guilt or what?

[Cephrir]

Be absolutely convinced who you are voting for is scum. This talk about acceptable losses about lynching Dok even he's town seems unacceptable and the people pushing that argument, aka Gateway and IcemanE resonate suspicion (mention if I've forgotten anybody who I've forgotten to include in that argument )

QFT.

[Cephrir]

So basically what you're saying is that you want to lynch DP because we've... talked about him alot. I don't follow.

[Cephrir]

I don't entirely agree. Your vote is a tool. You can use it to do things like force scum tells through pressure, which is what I was initially doing with my vote on Dok. Now, however, I'm convinced he's mafia, and my vote will stay on him. I think you can use your vote however you want to, it's your only power as a towine and you can get a lot more done with it than just add a number to the count.

Well, yeah, okay.

[Cephrir]

Second, you are the scummiest player right now. You roleclaimed too early, and your hinting at the number of the Mafia and the fact that there is a cop contradicts your roleclaim, so we can't tell what exactly you are. We've settled on scum for you.

While I'm at it, ever heard of "lynch all liars"?

We need to be careful about policy lynches. Scum will often hide behind policy lynches in leu of scum hunting because they're all too often easy lynch targets.

D1 policy lynches especially rarely pan out.

FoS: StrangerCoug

This is true. I want to see DP's alignment before I reach a verdict on SC as well; he has coached DP on three seperate occasions and could very well be attempting to make this look like a bus now. I think this lynch is going to give us a ton of info, quite frankly; DP is pretty scummy and I don't see anyone else getting lynched today.

Vote: Dokter Per

THIS IS A L-1 VOTE. Just making that perfecly clear.

Also, I may have limited access for an unknown length of time. Shouldn't be more than a week, and I might be able to post anyway.

[Cephrir]

FoS: Cephrir

Why do you need to sacrafice dokter per to reach a verdict on StrangerCoug?

I would rather we just get together and lynch StrangerCoug today.

I wouldn't use the word "sacrifice". I do think DP is scum. If a StrangerCoug lynch seems likely to happen today, I'd be on board with that. I'd just be more sure about him if DP died first and was scum. But now that I think about it, even if he were town, I'd still have StrangerCoug at the top of my suspect list.

It seemed to me like a DP lynch was inevitable today, but perhaps it isn't. I suppose if he comes up scum, my extra little thing about him will then apply to DP so it doesn't really matter. What the heck,let's give it a shot.

Unvote, Vote StrangerCoug

(an actual case)

Who are you, and what have you done with the real Greasy Spot?
<.<

[Cephrir]

No, no, no, no, no. Never nolynch D1. You are making me cry.

[Cephrir]

Congratulations, you have posted without defending yourslef.

I didn't realize my post would stretch the page, I thought it'd just go to the next line =/

[Cephrir]

Looking at his post, Rogue doesn't seem too involved right now.

FoS: Rogue Shenanigans

Do you have anything to say, especially about Doktor Per, that you can put in more than one sentence per paragraph?

Interesting. This is the second time you've pointed at RS specifically for somewhat vague reasons.

Loving this vote more every time I think about it, viewing all posts by SC shows me that most of his posts contain coaching, attacking DP in rather scummy ways, lack of defense when there needs to be one, or this, which is incredibly weird:

You're going to have to play a really long conviction game for that to be really feasible. Your argument against me is legitimate (but may or may not be true, I must warn you—I try to leave myself as open to interpretation as to what exactly I am as possible),

So yeah.

[Cephrir]

Simulposted. I think it's safe to say it; StrangerCoug, claim or die.

The fact that we managed to move this wagon over is so awesome.

[Cephrir]

@Cephrir: Please don't EVER do that again. Highly annoying. I'm going to be rich and famous one day when I invent a device that allows you to stab people in the face over the Internet.

Sheesh. Sorry. It's not the end of the world y'know.

[Cephrir]

Iceman, I don't see how that quote makes me scum, just wrong. If Stranger had been scum, you could just as easily throw that quote in my face and say I was bussing. Seriously, if I was scum and had just moved the wagon from my partner to someone I knew was a townie, why would I ever say it was "awesome"? I really thought SC was more likely scum than DP and was surprised we managed to move the wagon from a vanilla claimer to my #1 suspect.

Stranger being town kinda throws a wrench in my suspicions. As of now I think DP is the play, but I'll have to review people, and look at why the scum might have killed who they did, much as speculation on that often doesn't go anywhere good. Also, we have quite a few lurkers.

[Cephrir]

Including people who knew him to be a weaker novice. However, Cephir, unlike OGML, believed the argument Greasy Spot wrote despite the fact that it did little to actually make Stranger appear guilty. Doktor also found it to be happy to join, but as a new player, I can't say he isn't just being new. While other people were involved, the others who voted for him actually added some thought before voting. Stranger, just to note, did not actually go back to the GS argument, attacking Rogue Shenanigans. Nevertheless, these events, combined with last night's kills, I have decided that the following people are probably mafia:

Massively disagree. StrangerCoug was extremely scummy, and I don't think it was neccessarily GS's case that turned the tide on him. It definitely wasn't what caused my vote. I was already harboring doubts because of SC's coaching of DP; his behavior around the DP wagon and his arbitrary singling out of Rogue Shenanigans, and refusal to try to dig himself out of that hole, etc. all made him scummier than DP, who I was starting to believe, to me. However, I think DP is a good lynch today as I said and his death will provide us with plenty of information on who to go after next.

Vote Dokter Per

Sibelius, thinktank and RS need to start contributing. Light-kun, you need to post more so I can figure out why I have this funny gut feeling on you.

[Cephrir]

Every player in this game has had some sort of reaction to that wagon, and we'd get a lot of info based on who pushed the wagon, who stretched too far defending him, etc. A lot of the game has been talking about that wagon, and we can't draw many conclusions from, like, 5 pages of the thread unless we know his alignment.

[Cephrir]

Ugh, having second thoughts about DP again and the way Gatekeeper and RS hopped on seems scummy to me. And like Light said, that was just too fast.

Unvote

for now.

[Cephrir]

You could scumhunt, that might help.

RS wagon seems good to me. If nothing else, he could use a little pressure.

Vote: RS

[Cephrir]

Prodded, waiting for Rsreplacement to claim.

[Cephrir]

This is a weird situation to replace into. I'm a vanilla townie, all I can do is vote.

Now for my opinion:

I already reread. I don't think that DP is a good lynch, as he's too much of a wild card. Cephrir is my top suspicion.

RS wagon seems good to me. If nothing else, he could use a little pressure.

How quickly we forget the argument about the purpose of the vote.

Be absolutely convinced who you are voting for is scum. This talk about acceptable losses about lynching Dok even he's town seems unacceptable and the people pushing that argument, aka Gateway and IcemanE resonate suspicion (mention if I've forgotten anybody who I've forgotten to include in that argument )

QFT.

Well, yeah, but as was later pointed out, voting for pressure can also be a good thing, and I agreed with that. I didn't think of pressure votes when thinktank made that argument.

Also, I realise it's been said before, but:

Simulposted. I think it's safe to say it; StrangerCoug, claim or die.

The fact that we managed to move this wagon over is so awesome.

From these posts it seems that your are gunning for a lynch for the sake of a lynch, instead of finding scum.

Um, no. I stated several times that I thought StrangerCoug was a better lynch. If I just wanted a lynch, I'd be happy with DP.

This is true. I want to see DP's alignment before I reach a verdict on SC as well; he has coached DP on three seperate occasions and could very well be attempting to make this look like a bus now. I think this lynch is going to give us a ton of info, quite frankly; DP is pretty scummy and I don't see anyone else getting lynched today.

You never specified

why

you think DP is scum. Aside from a post saying he had committed various

unspecified

scum tells. If you could explain your reasoning, or account for pushing every lynch there has been so far. Why have you been on RS's, SC's, and DP's wagons with minimal explanation or sensible reasoning for any.

If you can't find reasons for the DP wagon in this thread, you have issues. Just because I didn't state them doesn't mean anything. If everyone who wanted to vote someone had to come up with an original reason and wasn't allowed to agree with a case, nothing would ever happen. StrangerCoug I voted for because of his posts regarding the DP wagon, specifically the two OGML pointed out, and for what looked to me like coaching of/buddying up to DP before the wagon got too serious. RS I voted for because I was uneasy about his quick wagon vote and he had been lurking anyway. Pressuring lurkers is a good way to determine their alignment, since it's otherwise difficult. Y'know, force them to say something.

I want to know why everyone is sort of dismissing RS as a suspect just because he's been replaced. Seems to me that Lord Gurgi's posting of a sort-of case against me has caused the last few posters to ignore the RS wagon and want to go back after DP.

Brilliant guard Gurgi.

Is it just me, or does that sound like congratulating a scumbuddy? I'm not even saying I think it is neccessarily, but that's just weird.

[Cephrir]

@Cephir: I would NEVER say that if he were my scum buddy. I am just saying that it was a brilliant defense, though in mild sarcasm. We cannot forget that Rogue Shennanigans is suspicious, but so are you Cephir, which makes me think you are bringing up a side comment to blow it up, if anyone bites. However, you didn't vote me for it, which shows that you may just be bringing it up for future relevance. *shrugs* I will just leave it at that.

Oh, sarcasm. Nevermind then. Also, stop reading everything I do as scummy when it could just as easily not be. I hate it when people do this. Sometimes someone just gets it in their head that X is scum, and then everything X does starts having an ulterior motive. So, yeah.

[Cephrir]

Cephrir, you specifically said you don't want anyone lynched other than DP, and also say that you need DP lynched before you could decide about SC. Then you proceeded to push the SC lynch.

That's because I realized that the reverse applied as well. Lynching SC would tell me just as much about DP as vice versa.

Also, would you mind giving your definition of a 'quick wagon vote'?

A quick wagon vote is a vote on someone who has amassed a lot of votes pretty quickly, comes in the later stages of a wagon, and seems like it's just waggoning for the sake of waggoning (or for pushing a town-aligned player to claim), without any reasoning like "because I agree with X's case" or something. A quick wagon vote is not always scummy; it depends on the context, and there's no blanket definition, much as I've tried to supply one. The entire DP wagon today seems awful to me, I think the scum are trying to get a lynch on him soon because he's fading as a general suspect, if you know what I mean, and it seems like if he doesn't get lynched soon it might never happen. As such, I view quick votes on that wagon (which applies to both RS and Gatekeeper) more suspicious than I might others.

Also, any responses to what I said in 240?

[Cephrir]

Oh, sarcasm. Nevermind then. Also, stop reading everything I do as scummy when it could just as easily not be. I hate it when people do this. Sometimes someone just gets it in their head that X is scum, and then everything X does starts having an ulterior motive. So, yeah.

I am not, I just think you have seemed slightly more scummy than town.
It is a bit in my head that Dok is playing us for newb and is scum on an alt.
Still, I can let this interfere with my play.

You say I've seemed slightly scummy... how so then? Also, I highly doubt DP is actually an experienced player =/

Anyway, cephrir, what did you get from the SC lynch about Dok? If you got Dok is mafia, care to explain your reasoning?

It turned out to be a null-tell. If SC had been scum, I would suspect DP right now.

[Cephrir]

I wouldn't say Dok's case adds up to "Iceman is protown" but it doesn't make him scum. I am really not sure if I actually want to lynch RS/LG today, but I

think

so.

[Cephrir]

Why am I not surprised you came in going after me.

Cephrir, of all people, should know what dcorbe was getting at when he said DP was "breadcrumbing mafia." That was a bad term that just confused people. What it is, is a SCUM SLIP. And Cephrir should recognize it because he has done it.

The term dcorbe used was confusing. I was clarifying that the term slip-up should be used there, basically. I think it's obvious I knew what he meant. I'm not sure what DP did was a slip-up, though, I could see it done as town. But given the SK and the vig, I could see there being two mafia in this game. But DP might have assumed 3 scum was always the case in minis. So yeah, it's a point against him, not lynch-worthy on its own.

I find it very strange to lynch one person to see how you feel about another person. It feels to me like he's setting it up so that if DP turns up scum he can link SC to him and get a mislynch tomorrow.

... obviously, if DP hadn't been ridiculously scummy, I wouldn't have wanted to lynch him, but I could also get info out of it since he was. Come

on

. You remind me of you in 564 already, only this time I'm not scum. Are you the SK again? Hmmmm? [/joke]

I also am not a fan of Cephrir's 156 where he calls DP scum and then unvote him in favor of SC.

I thought they were both scum, but SC looked worse, and I thought SC scum/DP town was more likely than the reverse.

Also, 176 is a defense of RS.

Well yeah, of course it is. And I still agree with that post in that SC's accusation of RS was completely arbitrary as far as I can see.

Obligatory Post. Not much to comment on, I would love to comment on elvis's expansion however. Also, Vote: Cephrir

... self-preservation vote much?

But... if Cephir were scum, he'd know DP was scum. Do you really think he'd sacrifice one of his buddies just to get a mislynch.

Well no, I could theoreically have been bussing DP. But then, of course, I wouldn't have stopped voting him in favor of a townie.

[Cephrir]

You're still saying that tell incriminates me even though I have responded. Tell me why my response is wrong or stop saying I'm scum with that reason.

De ja vous much. Don't make me chase after you over several pages to do this anymore, I had enough of it in 564 thank you very much.

[Cephrir]

Cephrir didn't jump on DP for his slip right away. He only votes DP when dcorbe won't let it drop and the town is looking like it will definitely lynch DP. That is the time when a scum buddy has to buss. The fact that he busses DP and chooses to tie DP to SC at the same time is very suspicious. It was like "If I have ot buss my buddy I am at least going to set up a mislynch for tomorrow."

You certainly sound like you know DP to be scum. And like I said, were I bussing DP I would not have moved to SC.

Oh I also forgot to say that DP should not know if there is a cop in the game or if there is not a cop in the game. It makes me think that DP is a godfather, or he know that one of his buddies is a godfather. And a godfather in the game usually indicates a cop.

Good point.

[quoteI realize the number of scum in a mini is usually 3-4. But those are two different numbers. Why did DP pick 3 over 4?[/quote]
Because 3 is more common. Also, 4? Like, 4 mafiates? Has that ever happened? I'd say 2 is more likely than 4, given the probable SK.

[Cephrir]

I get a very strong feeling that Dok is noobtown from his response to pressure

Exactly.

Honestly, I would not be opposed to a cop with a result on DP claiming right now. This could potentially be LyLo, and it's definitely lynch-or-be-in-a-pretty-bad-situation. Lynching the SK would be nice, but IMO a mafiate would be almost as good, just because there could potentially be three mafia, and getting rid of one of them would make the threat of auto-loss overnight much less. Then again, if we lynch the SK, we're basically guaranteed to get a Day 3.

[Cephrir]

k7, contribute more.

[Cephrir]

Alright, I think our safest bet here is to assume the worst; that there are 3 mafia. As such, DO NOT VOTE YET.

I need a reread, but currently there's only one other player I'm fairly certain is protown.

[Cephrir]

I'm a little unsure about my suspects. Definitely Lord Gurgi, but then I can find reasons for almost anyone else as scum. Thinktank and k7 NEED to post more.

What does everyone think of a massclaim?

[Cephrir]

The first thing that caught my eye was that he wanted to lynch DP in order to make up his mind about Stranger. That was very strange - it's not at all worth it for the town to sacrifice a potential ally just to help them decide on whether or not another player is scummy. This was the reason he provided for putting the L-1 vote on Dok.

However, when OGML challenged his logic, Cephir withdrew his previous statement:

I wouldn't use the word "sacrifice". I do think DP is scum. If a StrangerCoug lynch seems likely to happen today, I'd be on board with that. I'd just be more sure about him if DP died first and was scum. But now that I think about it, even if he were town, I'd still have StrangerCoug at the top of my suspect list.

It seemed to me like a DP lynch was inevitable today, but perhaps it isn't. I suppose if he comes up scum, my extra little thing about him will then apply to DP so it doesn't really matter. What the heck,let's give it a shot.

Unvote, Vote StrangerCoug

By this point, I think I've made it abundantly clear that I found SC to be, on the whole, scummier than DP. The connection between the two was not as big a factor in my voting on D1 than people seem to think it was; I thought of it more as an added bonus. Either one of the two turning up town would make the whole thing a null-tell anyway. It took me a while to realize that the coaching tell applied both ways, and in fact SC turning up scum would have been more telling than the reverse. I wasn't willing to "sacrifice" DP, as you put it, to determine SC's alignment, which I said in the very post you quoted. I was quite suspicious of both.

When Stranger flips town at the end of the day, Cephir immediatly jumps back onto Dok:

As of now I think DP is the play, but I'll have to review people, and look at why the scum might have killed who they did, much as speculation on that often doesn't go anywhere good.

That wasn't accompanied by a vote, so it's not "jumping onto" him.

He made the easy play at the start of the second day - honestly I think Dok' was a very oppurtunistic lynch - the case on him was not strong enough to warrant a lynch, in my opinion.

I agree.

However, I think DP is a good lynch today as I said and his death will provide us with plenty of information on who to go after next.

He is still pushing Dok's lynch as a source of information even after SC, previously the main reason that Ceph wanted to lynch Dok, has died and flipped town. When I asked him what information we would get from a Dok lynch at this point in the game, he said:

Every player in this game has had some sort of reaction to that wagon, and we'd get a lot of info based on who pushed the wagon, who stretched too far defending him, etc. A lot of the game has been talking about that wagon, and we can't draw many conclusions from, like, 5 pages of the thread unless we know his alignment.

Initially this sounds like a valid point, and it is, but the thing about it is that Ceph was one of the players that pushed hardest for Dok's lynch - and then a few posts later, after he's made a post about how much info we'd gain from a Dok lynch on players who pushed the wagon, a couple more players follow him and get on the wagon - namely, Gatekeeper and RS. Ceph then unvotes Dok.

Yes, his lynch would have and did provide a lot of info. The only problem was that lynching a potential townie solely for info is stupid. I got nervous about the quickly growing wagon (I believe I wasn't the only one who expressed this sentiment), and soon after it dawned on me that DP was confused/newbie town.

The unvote looks to me like someone trying to seem blameless if Dok turns up town by being the good guy at the last minute. He pushed for Dok's lynch several times, but right when it was about to happen, he jumped off the wagon. That's quite fishy to me.

It might not have been about to happen, considering how many times it almost happened. Obviously I'd never get away scot-free from a lynch of DP if I had known for certain he'd be town. But nonetheless, I was worried the wagon was scum-driven.

Oh, sarcasm. Nevermind then. Also, stop reading everything I do as scummy when it could just as easily not be. I hate it when people do this. Sometimes someone just gets it in their head that X is scum, and then everything X does starts having an ulterior motive. So, yeah.

The above defense definitely looks like a frustrated scum defense to me. When a case is presented against him, Ceph claims the presenter, in this case Light-kun, has tunnel-vision.

Or a frustrated town defense. Everything Light said about me could just as easily have been town behavior, only seen as having a scummy motive just because he thought I was scum (if I thought you were town, I'd say you were doing the same, but you're not the one player I'm pretty certain is town)

LG beings up this point against Ceph, which is a good one:

Cephrir, you specifically said you don't want anyone lynched other than DP, and also say that you need DP lynched before you could decide about SC. Then you proceeded to push the SC lynch.

To which Ceph responds:

That's because I realized that the reverse applied as well. Lynching SC would tell me just as much about DP as vice versa.

The problem with this defense is that lynching someone for information on another player is still not a good reason for voting them, regardless of whom you think you're getting info on. Additionally, even after Stranger flipped town, Ceph was still after a Dok lynch.

I know. Like I said, at the time the Dok case looked compelling to me. For the last time, the connection was not a major factor. I mentioned it once or twice, and everyone ket bringing it up and I had to respond, so it's looked more important than it was.

Ceph says this, which I agree with, and ironically applies to Ceph, as well as the quickwagon voters he mentions in the rest of the post:

The entire DP wagon today seems awful to me, I think the scum are trying to get a lynch on him soon because he's fading as a general suspect, if you know what I mean, and it seems like if he doesn't get lynched soon it might never happen.

So I changed my mind on Day 2. Get over it. Think: is changing my mind about a suspect a scumtell. No, it's not.

If you look at Ceph's posts overall you'll notice that he's

very

reluctant to express any hard, solid accusations, as illustrated in this post:

I wouldn't say Dok's case adds up to "Iceman is protown" but it doesn't make him scum. I am really not sure if I actually want to lynch RS/LG today, but I think so.

He tiptoes around issues and sits on the fence, trying to make it seem as if he

could

be on either side.

I'm sorry, but that accusation does not make any sense. The quote you took is not fence-sitting. The first part just means that DP's case on you didn't make you protown (as you said it did), it just didn't include any actual scumtells. The second part: LG had been my suspect for a little while but I wanted to look at others...

I agree with Elvis' post 282 and suggest you all look at it for further reasons to vote Cephir.

vote: Cephir

I'll assume you mean the post full of absolutely horrendous logic? Yeah, classic elvis (from what I've seen of her in two games).

I think massclaim might be good just because of LyLo to narrow down suspects, but since we know it's unlikely that there's a Cop anymore, maybe there's no real reason to. At worst, it might just out a Doc, which would be really bad right now as if we mislynch Doc protection + SK kill might be our only hope (assuming the game doesn't automatically end).

[Cephrir]

Someone unvote me, scum can pile on for the win, much as I think one of them is on me already. In fact, I could see LG as trying to subtly be the first vote on a scumhammer. We should be voting with FoSes today. People would therefore claim at "L-1" instead of having to claim at 1/2 votes as is now the case.

ust a question for the two players who have said they're "pretty sure one player is town" - which player is that, and why are you reluctant to say which?

Greasy Spot, and I'm not reluctant.

This is why I disagree with a massclaim. And Ceph, considering the strength of the reason you give for a massclaim being a bad idea - essentially, that it would destroy our only hope of victory - why do you still want one?

Meh, I kinda don't anymore.

LG and Iceman-- you are currently voting me without responding to my 336 at all, and tbh I doubt LG even read it. Iceman, refute what I said or stop voting me as otherwise your points are invalid. LG, your post is a really lame wagon hop and I think you're scum going for hammer.

FoS: LG

[Cephrir]

First, don't accuse me of a wagon hop, especially since I was voting for you yesterday, and you've been on mine, DP's, and SC's.

You nonetheless dismissed my defense ou of hand, as well as the defense I gave you yesterday.

Cephrir, can you give any decent reasons for pushing SC to lynch, then still suspecting DP, despite your previous statements? And please don't say you reconsidered after that first post.

However, I think DP is a good lynch today as I said and his death will provide us with plenty of information on who to go after next.

Yes. Both of them were scummy. Both together and individually. I'm quite certain I've said this several times.

Can you also please explain how

it dawned on me that DP was confused/newbie town.

I don't remember what post it was of his, but you should be able to tell by a post of mine in which I said I was having second thoughts on DP (basically the first place I suggested this). I don't have time to look it up myself atm.

Obviously I'd never get away scot-free from a lynch of DP if I had known for certain he'd be town.

Do you think you should get off scot-free then?

Absolutely not, but I don't think I should be the only one blamed for his lynch either.

Also Cephrir, you're not dead yet and it's been 24 hours, I'm pretty sure you would have been hammered by now, and I'm sure of my vote at this point.

Possibility 1) Both players voting me are scum. 2) The scum haven't been online simultaneously. 3) They're afraid of getting caught in the middle of it. 4) They don't want to out themselves because of the possibility of a successful Doc protection and a successful SK kill. 5) There are only two mafia. Take your pick.

As I said before, there is no reason not to vote with FoSes today.

I'm becoming increasingly suspicious of thinktank and k7 as they continue not to contribute.

[Cephrir]

You're right, I just said that my scumbuddy is my top pick for town. Yeah right. I suppose he has been lurking, but his behavior Day 1 was so different from his play in 547 (in which he was scum) that I find it doubtful.

I don't really want to claim just yet, as it occurs to me that it might be 3 mafia and an SK wanting me to claim right now. At least half of living, non-me players are scum, after all.

[Cephrir]

I have a couple problems with your suspicions. Firstly, I don't see how GS would be scum with me. That'd be some pretty obvious buddying up and bad scum play. I also just listed him as my most protown, which would also be awful. But eh. Also, you don't give a lot of actual reasons for your suspicions, it seems like it's all based on connections, and LG is the SK in your opinion because he seems scummy but not connected to anyone. But sometimes townies agree with one another. So-- do you have actual reasons to find me and/or GS scummy apart from being connected to one another? Also, IMO k7 hasn't been lurking much worse than thinktank, though think's limited contributions have been more protown. k7 always lurks, so sadly this isn't a good tell on him. Oh, and btw, you say you think you have at least 2 scum correct, but if you're town it's impossible not to, heh.

I'll do something similar to that soon, maybe today and maybe not.

[Cephrir]

I don't think lurking is a tell, usually. I meant to say that, but evidently I didn't. And I do have evidence, but it's meta-evidence. I suppose he is lurking though, and a bit worse than you. Nobody can ever beat k7 for sheer lurking power, of course

[Cephrir]

I don't think lurking is a tell, usually. I meant to say that, but evidently I didn't. And I do have evidence, but it's meta-evidence. I suppose he is lurking though, and a bit worse than you. Nobody can ever beat k7 for sheer lurking power, of course

So you're basing your top town pick based on "meta". Sure meta can be useful some of the time but to definitively say something that is very contrary to the actual evidence presented seems like a really bad idea. I can't buy such an argument because its just really bad....

Well, based on in-thread actions, there isn't anyone I could normally say is clearly protown, so I've had no resort to subpar reasons.

has not said anything to convince me I'm wrong about his being scum, and as such I believe he should be lynched.

So... are you going to explain why you don't believe what I said in 336, or are you just going to ignore it and insist I'm scum anyway?

This is the kind of stuff that you look back on after the game is finished and say, wow, he told us up front, we're idiots. I think it's clear he should be lynched.

If you want to take it that way, I can't stop you. Have fun with that.

[Cephrir]

Okay, so alive we have 3 town players, 1 SK, 3 mafia (probably). One of the townies might have a power role, but that really doesn't matter much at the moment. If I had to guess...

Mafia (in order of likelihood):
Lord Gurgi
Killa Seven
IcemanE

People we don't want to lynch today (scummiest first):
thinktank
Light-kun/Greasy Spot (About equal, really, though I got some weird vibes from Light early on)
Cephrir

This is really hard to do right now given the lack of dead mafiates; not a lot of players have clear connections to others. I could just as easily see IcemanE as the SK and thinktank or Light being mafia instead of him. To be honest, Lord Gurgi is the only lynch I would be completely comfortable with today. Anything else leaves at least some doubt in my mind. If we weren't in LyLo, I'd want to pressure k7/thinktank/Greasy Spot, but we can't really do that given our position as they know we won't lynch them over it. Iceman moved up for ignoring my response to his case.

Actually Light, it's very easy to mislynch today since three of the opinions out there are from scum, so they can make the general consensus appear different from what the town's is. One of the reasons I'm thinking we have at least one lurkerscum is the lack of pressure on them in this day and others. Hmm... and actually I bet I know who that one is.

FoS: killa seven

[Cephrir]

My response to 336:

Either one of the two turning up town would make the whole thing a null-tell anyway.

Why then did you continue to pursue Dok on Day 2? SC turned up town.

Because he was still scummy on his own? Like I said that I said that I said, the connection was not that important.

That wasn't accompanied by a vote, so it's not "jumping onto" him.

This fits in with what I said about not dedicating yourself to one side or the other. If you think someone's the play, you vote for them. Your voting patterns on Dok, which I mentioned before, were very wishy-washy.

That's because I wasn't certain.

Yes, his lynch would have and did provide a lot of info.

Earlier in the post you said that SC's turning up town made it a null-tell. What info did we gain?

From how people voted on the wagon. Without Dok having been lynched, a lot of the D1 discussion would be useless in finding scum.

Are those all the points you want to argue in 336, then, Iceman? So I take it you have no argument with the rest and/or are using a strawman by selectively ignoring the points you can't refute?

Cephrir, why do you find me scummy? Obviously you must have an extensive list of facts and accusations, since that is what you have expected from everyone suspecting you.

RS' wagon vote, which was the reason I voted RS/you to begin with, you got a little pissed about being waggoned, and my suspicions have only been heightened since then by your repeated insistance for no apparent reason that I'm scum and for the most part ignoring my response to your initial argument aginst me.

[Cephrir]

I am at lynch-1, someone unvote please so scum can't hammer. Light-kun is now confirmed town unless there are only 2 mafia. No time to talk right now, but I think it's very obvious k7 is scum.

[Cephrir]

Drat. I was actually at lynch-2, hoping to catch someone attempting hammer, but oh well.

I'm a tracker. Night 1 I tracked Greasy Spot to nobody; last night I tracked elvis to me.

[Cephrir]

If there are 3 mafia and an SK we kinda deserve two investigative roles.

[Cephrir]

Yeah, I didn't think that was gonna work but I had to try it. I'm the SK. I've been playing to kill scum and failing miserably. I've also been playing like absolute crap for some reason, go figure.

[Cephrir]

Miscounted the players alive and didn't even realize thinktank was hammer =/

I knew elvis probably investigated me. I also noticed after her death that she sort-of crumbed dcorbe as her first investigation, didn't bother mentioning it. Bah at thinktank and k7 both being scum.

The N2 kill was an absolute wreck for me. I reread everyone and considered killing almost every player, and typed, like, four different names in my PM before picking Iceman, and then I changed it to elvis later. I thought from the sudden cases on me D3 that the scum might have tried to kill me at night and figured out why they failed.

I'm not terribly upset about this, I didn't deserve to win anyway. It just sucks that scum lurked ftw.

[Cephrir]

Heh. The title of this thread should obviously read "town loses" <.<

[Cephrir]

It was a joke.

[Cephrir]

Not referring to the lurkers so much as SC and DP all but lynching themselves.

[Cephrir]

Tone doesn't work over the internet.

Someone should invent a way to do that.