Minvitational 8 - OVER before 611

[curiouskarmadog]

what a fucking awesome cast...this should be an incredible game....honored to be here..that being said.

vote billy twilight

, biggest threat...dont know you or how you play.

[curiouskarmadog]

this is going to be such a fun game...

[curiouskarmadog]

going to be gone friday until monday, should be posting again on Tuesday...posting in all games.

agreed, like this avatar more

[curiouskarmadog]

jitsu, how many games have you played now?....

[curiouskarmadog]

wow flying through pages...already talks about untells and nice size wagon, and Oman is making sense...sort of...at least we wont have that newbie chat about theory....oh wait..nevermind.

unvote.

heading out for a couple days.

[curiouskarmadog]

Unvote Vote: Oman

I dislike cicero's defence of himself.

why?

Sorry guys, I was tied up with work Thursday and Friday. I'll catch up
I didn't want to mention it, because I think someone could (legitimately) gripe that they should have been chosen over someone that's only played two mafia games ever.

the only reason I ask is because in Underground you posted mountians of text, was wondering if we will have such posts here. And to agree with Fonz, I think you have "game", are active (though not so much here yet), and have the ability to watch and comment, versus comment and watch.

+++
At any rate, I was hoping that we weren’t going to have so much theory conversation in this game, but maybe that is just how games go with a day start. Theory discussion, then pounce on the guy we think has faulty theory or is pushing bad theory as fact. While reading (catching up) I haven’t really considered the Cicero wagon a real wagon, though it appears others have, though I don’t know why.

Shanba’s last post I found interesting….and would like him to comment it on it now, please.

Unvote BT

, though I note his lurking.

[curiouskarmadog]

I know this may come off OMGUS, but I think Shanba is "lurking" heavier than BT is. BT seems absent, Shanba is posting little content.

I agree..

and I just realized that BT lives like 30 minutes from me...I work at Tech 2-3 times a week...no real importance to the game..just realized that.

waiting for shanba to answer question.

[curiouskarmadog]

what is your point?

[curiouskarmadog]

well, i doubt that anyone is going to take anyone in this game at face value...we all have metas on each other (on the most part).

[curiouskarmadog]

Happy steakday (so I use Marfur, sue me) CKD.

thank you.

[curiouskarmadog]

My contact with Adel (2-3 games)...she always plays different and I always tend to think she is scummy. Dont know why. I have played in two games with cierco and if I recall, he does vote hop quite frequently...

also still waiting,

vote shanba

[curiouskarmadog]

I hate Day 1s without a Night 0, or maybe I am just insecure about my scum hunting abilities day 1 with little to go on. not sure why the wagon is shifting to Shanba if he is not even posting at this site.

unvote

my last question to shanba still stands though..and you should consider my vote still there.

[curiouskarmadog]

So you still want to hear his reason, but you are unvoting and saying that Shanba should still consider your vote still there? What's up with that? He was only at four votes by my count. I highly doubt that he was in any danger of being quicklynched.

who knows what could happen. I agree with you that I seriously doubt that anyone will be quick lynched here with the caliber of players we have here, but it is a habit. The quickness of the shift startled me enough to make me to want to remove my vote until Shanba returns. I can understand a BW to pressure someone who is here, but this BW seems off or disingenuous. That being said I want my vote to still be considered there (for the time being) but I don’t like the company of voters I am voting with atm to actually keep it there.

I agree with Jitsu's point against CKD:

So you still want to hear his reason, but you are unvoting and saying that Shanba should still consider your vote still there? What's up with that? He was only at four votes by my count. I highly doubt that he was in any danger of being quicklynched.

To unvote at L-3 is a bit strange to me. You know there aren't any wild cards in this game that will come by and hammer out of the ether. Why the concern?

unvote vote: CKD

(laughing) so my unvote at L-3 was scummy or just odd (in your opinion)? Why did it warrant a vote? Something about Sime and Oman’s quick votes for little reason bothered me enough too not like my vote there. Noted, you felt Oman was scummy, and his quick vote (following Sime) for little reason makes him less scummy then my cautious unvote.

[curiouskarmadog]

First I've seen CKD peg scum on Day 1 of two games. I think he's got a good Day 1 nose (maybe it was just a fluke?). But the "not sure why the wagon is shifting" comment sits wrong with me.

I am confused here, do I have a good nose? IF so, why are you voting me when I am following it?

[curiouskarmadog]

Noted, you felt Oman was scummy, and his quick vote (following Sime) for little reason makes him less scummy then my cautious unvote.

I've never once accused Oman of being scummy in this game. And your unvote was overly cautious thus suspicious.

ahh, so it was a random vote you were keeping on him as the leading bandwagon? Also what were you implying when you noted

quietly notices Oman's shifting the wagon to cicero

[curiouskarmadog]

I can understand a BW to pressure someone who is here, but this BW seems off or disingenuous. That being said I want my vote to still be considered there (for the time being) but I don’t like the company of voters I am voting with atm to actually keep it there.

This is what I don't get. If the BW startled you enough to remove your vote, why don't you take action against the people that were swift wagoning?

who should I have taken action against? Sime? Oman? How could I chose which one. I would rather watch their actions somemore (scum hunt). Why are you pushing me to vote?

and again, if you think I have such a good nose, why are you pushing me when I follow it?

[curiouskarmadog]

for the record, "not overreacting" has little with being town. Some of the most calm and collected players I have seen are scum.

[curiouskarmadog]

If felt like you were trying to avoid a wagon on him.

in a sense I was, but at the same time not (psuedo vote). But lets say I was for an instance...that means I am likely scum in your book?

[curiouskarmadog]

If felt like you were trying to avoid a wagon on him.

in a sense I was, but at the same time not (psuedo vote). But lets say I was for an instance...that means I am likely scum in your book?

Why would you want to avoid a wagon on him if you remain suspicous of his play? It seems possible that scum would unovte like that to avoid a wagon on there buddy. Thus it seemed possible you put the vote on him as a form of distancing but didn't like the prospect of him encountering a sizable wagon out of the blue on his return. But I do realize that this situation requires both you and Shanba to be scum which is a lot of assumptions to be making at this point.

yes, but I am also suspicious of the quickness and reasons of others who placed vote..thus, I dont want my vote there any longer, but wanted everyone to know that it could returned based on Shanba's reply. one could also hypothize that if Shanba was town, and unvoted because I didnt want to be assocaited with a town lynch...it is sort of a lose/lose situation when someone begins to attack an unvote, like you have. Now that the conversation as surfaced, if I vote someone else (or shanba again), it could be hypothized that I voted someone because of the pressure of this conversation. I understand this is bordering false dilemma territory, but you can see how starting the arguement as you did, leaves you room to adapt as needed. Not saying you are doing this for dubious reasons, most likely you are just scum hunting and "looking for reactions"...but I am interested to see where it goes from here...

if you really thought it was a scum manuver, why didnt you wait a bit to see where my vote might have gone next (wouldnt that have provided much more information?). or even waited to see what Shanba would have flipped, if/when he was lynched?

[curiouskarmadog]

Cicero left me out of the break down....

also, my vote on shanba was not a pressure to post wagon..though I guess it is turning into one.

[curiouskarmadog]

Cicero left me out of the break down....

also, my vote on shanba was not a pressure to post wagon..though I guess it is turning into one.

cicero+ckd scum team +1

what a great eye you have Adel...

[curiouskarmadog]

You havent exactly done much yet, CKD.

I am more of a late/mid game bloomer, as you know...I dont stir the pot day one just to stir the pot, unless I see something very scummy...then prepare for me to play hot.

at any rate, you mentioned non contributors...you mentioned others...just curious where I stand..(I assume along with the non contributors, after that last post).

[curiouskarmadog]

Adel, you are not usually so narrowed minded. You cant see other reasons why i would ask Cicero that? Really you cant?

[curiouskarmadog]

Bah like quadruple ninja'd, got a phone call while typing. The double WIFOM refers to 257 and 258

hey man, I am curious if Adel would have said anything if I hadnt pointed it out....

[curiouskarmadog]

ckd -- you could totally use this as a chance to post some actual, you know, content and explain yourself. I wouldn't have said anything if you hadn't pointed it out -- I missed it!

I probably would've caught it much later in the game when I was doing my relationship breakdown analysis.

your vote was not based on my lack of content from my retort to cicero's post....what do I need to explain myself about Adel?

and again, is that the only reason I would have asked Cicero that...you really can not come up with any others?

[curiouskarmadog]

you are answering a question with a question?

[curiouskarmadog]

stop avoiding, Adel

[curiouskarmadog]

Jitsu is indeed a waffler.

no, he is simply a careful poster who simply hasn't adopted the bombastic style common here.

QFT, he played similiar in Underground Mafia...he didnt waffle as much as he considered possibilities..the only difference is in this game..his posts are not as frequent...but that means little at this point.

[curiouskarmadog]

you are answering a question with a question?

your question was a response to my implied question.

Adel, why are you avoiding the question?

You put forward a couple theories, both indicating that I was scum...you did not ask why, you just put out your theories...now I am asking you directing for the 4th time..you really can not come up with any other reasons I might ask Cicero that?

[curiouskarmadog]

Adel, you are

not usually so narrowed minded.

You cant see other reasons why i would ask Cicero that? Really you cant?

the part in bold is interesting. Did you forget that other players in this game know me?

what is your point...I know nothing about what other players know about you...why didnt you bring this up, when I mentioned that my meta on you was that you play every game differently? What was the point of that post?

[curiouskarmadog]

did you miss this part?

I have trouble understanding the motivation for ckd-town making that post, lit is like waving a sign saying "I'm lurking!".

so the answer is "No, I really can not think of any other reason why CKD would ask why Cicero why he did not mention him in an apparent break down"

I didnt notice that Cicero left Fonz off as well, or I might not had made the comment the way I did. I thought the post was a mini break down of Cicero's thoughts on everyone. I was curious where I stood on that list. I think it is important to get those thoughts in now, versus later. One of the things I am noticing in my games when I am NKed, is that my killer does not really mention me the day(s) before my kill. So when I see someone (who I feel is doing a mini break down of players) not mention me...small alarms sound.

Also, since I dont feel like I have been not been contributing, I was wondering why I was left out...so not only did I want to know what Cicero thought, I was curious why he left me out...I thought my comment would spur conversation on the subject.

I couldnt figure out why Cicero would do a mini break down, but not mention me...obviously he wasnt doing that...


also adel, I think you do play differently every game in regards to your agreesiveness. But being narrow minded is a new thing. I was curious how someone with your experience could only think of scum theories why I would ask Cicero that question, but not think of any town reasons to do so. I guess I over estimated your ability to look at things from different prespectives (noted for future).

DO you think you tunnel vision or bulldozer?

[curiouskarmadog]

I don't understand why, as town, he would point out that you left him off.

for someone who boasts having such great logic, you want me to believe this?

[curiouskarmadog]

Adel, you forgot Mini 458(?) you pushed for my lynch all day, until the end you "changed your mind"..I was still lynched...I was town, you were scum.

for some reason when thinking about Adel I saw an intelligent woman who was open minded and openly reviewed all possibilites...if I had time I could reread those games to figure out why. But Adel is right....she did Dayvig a townie in house without thinking it through or even consulting the town, which contributed to a loss...she did ride Flay hard in Underground, when he was a townie....so yeah, she is known to tunnel vision, so apparently I am pulling that vision of Adel out of no where...

so I guess it isnt out of character for adel to only see the negative without reviewing all possibilities....

will respond to other post later with time.

[curiouskarmadog]

I'd like everyone simply to list where there current major suspicions lie;

you first...unless Jitsu and I are the extent of your list.

[curiouskarmadog]

LOL

CKD/Shanba +1?

It appears that CKD might be defending Jitsu

CKD/Jitsu +1?

oh wait, CKD argued with shafted a bit today, obvious distancing?

CKD/shafted +1?

You know, I havent really seen interaction between CKD and Oman today

CKD/Oman +1?

You know Adel, this could be a grand scheme between you and I

CKD/Adel +1?

man, if I am hung/NKed and I flip town...you equations are going to come back and haunt you.

[curiouskarmadog]

I hate Day 1s without a Night 0, or maybe I am just insecure about my scum hunting abilities day 1 with little to go on. not sure why the wagon is shifting to Shanba if he is not even posting at this site.

unvote

my last question to shanba still stands though..and you should consider my vote still there.

ckd voted for shamba in post 164. vollkan voted for shamba in 166, simenon in 180, and oman in 182.

Is this an unvote of a scumbuddy getting nervous about the rate of acceleration of his buddy's wagon?

what does this equal?

[curiouskarmadog]

lol, you really do fail...

so nothing happened in those 2 days that made me unvote or are you conveniently forgeting it?

[curiouskarmadog]

Adel, you forgot Mini 458(?) you pushed for my lynch all day, until the end you "changed your mind"..I was still lynched...I was town, you were scum.

so is your point that I didn't have tunnel vision in a game played 9 months ago where I was scum?

no you did have tunnel vision until the wagon got going..then you backed off...what does it matter that it was 9 months ago?

[curiouskarmadog]

also the only reason I mentioned that game to begin with is you stated the "only" games you have been in with me...but you left that game out...it was just a reminder.

[curiouskarmadog]

the wagon shifted to shamba.. up to lynch -3, right? so if you wanted an answer to you question (the explicit reason you gave for your vote) I think that pressure whould've been a good thing.

not a reason to unvote.

AGAIN, I didnt like the quickness of the reason-lite votes...AND he wasnt posting..so I didnt like my vote

Adel, why do you keep pushing nothing as something?

[curiouskarmadog]

CKD not sure about your explanation for asking about being left off of a scum analysis or similar discussion. Would you have any examples on hand where this happened?

yeah I might have some completed games that could be referenced.

Adel, you forgot Mini 458(?) you pushed for my lynch all day,

If this happened to you personally, why would you think Adel is incapable of tunnel vision?

Where did I say Adel is incapable of tunnel visioning? I DID recently say that she is indeed capable to tunnel visioning.

CKD I don't know where you're getting those comments from (313).

it was a jab at adel for her recent tactics....thought that was obvious.

[curiouskarmadog]

answered the first question (3 times now)

AGAIN adel, I didnt bring up that game to prove a point...AGAIN, you said that you were only in two games with me..and LIKE I HAVE ALREADY SAID, I brought it up because you had forgetten it.

AGAIN, I have already said you tunnel vision...and AGAIN, I have said that I was wrong about your ability to see outside of the box..

so what is your point here?

[curiouskarmadog]

you are spamming up the thread to bury & evade legit cases against you.

what? where?

[curiouskarmadog]

you are spamming up the thread to bury & evade legit cases against you.

I am posting to your ridiculous statements? OK adel, you have proved your point..I was wrong to state that you were experienced player and that I thought you would think out of the box...your trait is definitely to tunnel vision and push obnoxious "logik" as cases...

Now, I need to figure out if you are doing it because you are being you or if you are scum.

Jitsu, I am not discrediting Shanba's wagon...I have stated the same reason throughout the whole game as to my reasons of unvoting him...I am not letting him off of anything...my question of him still stands.

[curiouskarmadog]

you are spamming up the thread to bury & evade legit cases against you.

That's untrue, CKD posts very rapidly with short replies when in a heated exchange.

she should know this..actually everyone who has ever played with me should know this.

[curiouskarmadog]

bold is me

ckd bailed off of the Shamba wagon once it hit -3. He was attempting to use his vote for Shanba as a tool to get Shanba to account for his Cicero unvote/Oman vote in post 96.

His stated reason for unvoting was that he didn't like the speed of the wagon (yet it only got to lynch -3) but in his unvote post he left himself an opening to revote Shanba if he didn't like Shanba's reason for unvoting cicero and voting for Oman.

Adel, this was not the only reason for the unvote, I have stated this NUMEROUS times, your failure to acknowledge this is now become scummy

I don't see a Shanba mis-lynch as being a legitimate worry. ckd's explanation, restated a few times, doesn't make sense to me. When I pressure someone for information I want more pressure. I welcome people onto the wagon. ckd did not have a case on anther player that he moved on to. Bailing out because there suddenly more pressure doesn't make sense, especially sence he didn't have a case on another player.

I didnt like the speed of the reason-lite votes that came on a player that wasnt here to respond. I am tired of fucking repeating myself. I didnt "bail" because there was more pressure (please quote where I said that). I dont just vote for the sake of voting. I dont just unvote for the sake of fucking unvoting. I no longer felt like it was where my vote wanted to be. HOWEVER, I wanted Shanba to know that I still expected him to answer my question.

Two scenarios would make sense:
1. ckd is scum w/ Shanba
2. ckd knows that Shanba is town

both are wrong

~~~

ckd pointed out that cicero left him out of a player breakdown. the interaction between cicero and ckd following that seems really scummy.

why?

the scumtell that I've left out up until now is that I believe scum are more interested in what other players think of them than townies are.

that is the biggest load of bullshit I have ever heard.

I also think that scum like to collect the opinions of other players in order to better formulate a safe opinion to have,

I asked Cicero his opinion on me, to form an opinion on myself? That doesnt even make sense.

and identify perspective wagon to follow through on. Billy's most recent post is a scumtell due to this, as is ckd trying to dig information out of cicero.

Tell me again, what information was I trying to dig out of Cicero?

the breakdown:

ckd-scum/cicero-town:

ckd was trying to get information out of cicero, or trying to tie himself to cicero (simenon's point)

(see above) How is asking Cicero to state his opinion on me today = scum trying to dig for information to form opinions about others? I also dont understand how this = me tying myself to Cicero.

ckd-scum/cicero-scum:

ckd was trying to distance from cicero, and pointing out a mistake of cicero's (leaving out his scumbuddy) before someone else caught it

So I am scum pointing out my scum buddies fault, thus thrusting us into the limelight?!?..keep stretching.

ckd-town/cicero-town:

ckd is trying to get cicero on the record , since he is usually nk'd by people who neglect him in player breakdowns (ckd's defense, we're still waiting for evidence, which I doubt will be conclusive -- I totally don't buy it)

seems like you have already made a decision there...

ckd-town/cicero-scum:

same as above.

Following my initial vote for ckd, his first line of defense is to say that I am not normally so close-minded. (265)

my defense? I thought state my defense came later?

Two minutes later he speculates if I would've said anything about cicreo leaving him out if he hadn't pointed it out. (266)

so?

265, 273, 274, are rhetorical attemts to control the dialog at this point. He wanted me to write his defense for him by listing reasons he could have a town motivation for his action. Once he gives up on this trick, he posts

did you miss this part?

I have trouble understanding the motivation for ckd-town making that post, lit is like waving a sign saying "I'm lurking!".

so the answer is "No, I really can not think of any other reason why CKD would ask why Cicero why he did not mention him in an apparent break down"

I didnt notice that Cicero left Fonz off as well, or I might not had made the comment the way I did. I thought the post was a mini break down of Cicero's thoughts on everyone. I was curious where I stood on that list. I think it is important to get those thoughts in now, versus later. One of the things I am noticing in my games when I am NKed, is that my killer does not really mention me the day(s) before my kill. So when I see someone (who I feel is doing a mini break down of players) not mention me...small alarms sound.

Also, since I dont feel like I have been not been contributing, I was wondering why I was left out...so not only did I want to know what Cicero thought, I was curious why he left me out...I thought my comment would spur conversation on the subject.

I couldnt figure out why Cicero would do a mini break down, but not mention me...obviously he wasnt doing that...


also adel, I think you do play differently every game in regards to your agreesiveness. But being narrow minded is a new thing. I was curious how someone with your experience could only think of scum theories why I would ask Cicero that question, but not think of any town reasons to do so. I guess I over estimated your ability to look at things from different prespectives (noted for future).

DO you think you tunnel vision or bulldozer?

why did he wait until this post to post his defense?

Adel, you are not this ridiculous..I refuse to believe that you are this insane. I wanted to see if you really wanted us to believe that you could not come up with any town reason why I did that....

YOu continued to avoid the question. Even though you DID state that you didnt know why I did it (or why town would do it)...I just wanted to confirm that you truly lacked the skills to form those theories...when you confirmed that you just simply lacked the capacity to do so..I explained why I did it...

Note that here stumbles upon the next wave of his rhetorical defense: get Adel to argue that she is narrow-minded. Nice! I totally fell for it.

What? I made you agrue this? Oh fucking jesus. I think that I agreed with you multiple times...how did I make you argue this point? and lets play for second in Adel's make-believe land. Lets say I dubiously made you agure that you were narrow minded...how in fuck's sake does that make me scummy?

The framing of that (narrow minded) is far less than flattering. I approach scum hunting like I do a math or physics problem: I identify a promising or interesting approach and try to work it through. Sometimes that means eliminating a problematic variable via the lynch. It usually requires that I post with false confidence in order to get anywhere. On this side of the screen I am very agnostic about everyone's alignment. I see mafia as a random system that can only be narrowly tweaked. I usually have two or three closely competing theories for who is most likely to be scum as well as two or three closely competing theories for who could be a group of scum.

I put money down that if I do hang or am night killed tonight and flip town, she will be referencing this little post later.

I feel like ckd had accomplished a pretty neat feat by discrediting me (narrow-minded)

LOL, I agreed with you! You made me change my opinion of you

and seriously undermining the legitimacy of any case I may make in this game. I'm working too damn hard in this game to let that happen.




First of all I've won my last 5 games as town in a row, and 70% out of my last 10 games as town and 73% of my last 15 games as town. I survived in 3/11, and was nk'd or daykilled 6/11 and lynched twice for those wins.

]I can identify scum, and my technique for identifying them works. I am not narrow-minded, I am effective.

Wow, dont believe her? She will throw numbers at you. WHo cares what your stats as town are...do we know you are town here?

Currently my biggest tell against ckd is that he fits my profile of scum:
1. no active scumhunting
2. fake votes on an easy target as a placeholder for actual activity
3. rapid response to any any attack that relies upon shifting the focus and responding to questions with diverting questions. Note his numerous posts on tangents which are then followed up by "what is your point". It is much more pro-town to attempt to just settle the case against you. ckd attempts to obfuscate it via volume of posts and attacking my credibility.

you have got to be kidding me with those points. Adel you know I post frequently. In house mafia (which you contributed to our loss, I guess that one was not in your last 5), Armlxscum tried to say that my posting style was a signal that I was fustrated scum and pushed a case...you should remember that...if you dont go check it out...check out Underground Mafia again that you were in..same posting style...check Small town Heroes..same deal.

I no longer think you are actively trying to scum hunt. I think you are trying to scrape together ANYTHING to form a case on me...you dont care if they make sense...or if it is ..or is warping facts...or are giant leaps in assumptions. I can not see anyone protown push this. You are conviently forgetting things that you should know. This is scummy

vote Adel

no doubt you will try to push that this is a scummy OMGUS vote...

[curiouskarmadog]

So Adel, would a curse free reply make you answer my questions and address my points?

and I bolded as I replied (you know I didnt type out the tags). Again you are finding reasons to avoid questions and stretching for anything you can...

sad.

and you thought the Shanba wagon was weak, but you think I am scummy for unvoting off of it?

[curiouskarmadog]

bold is me

ckd bailed off of the Shamba wagon once it hit -3. He was attempting to use his vote for Shanba as a tool to get Shanba to account for his Cicero unvote/Oman vote in post 96.

His stated reason for unvoting was that he didn't like the speed of the wagon (yet it only got to lynch -3) but in his unvote post he left himself an opening to revote Shanba if he didn't like Shanba's reason for unvoting cicero and voting for Oman.

Adel, this was not the only reason for the unvote, I have stated this NUMEROUS times, your failure to acknowledge this is now become scummy

I don't see a Shanba mis-lynch as being a legitimate worry. ckd's explanation, restated a few times, doesn't make sense to me. When I pressure someone for information I want more pressure. I welcome people onto the wagon. ckd did not have a case on anther player that he moved on to. Bailing out because there suddenly more pressure doesn't make sense, especially sence he didn't have a case on another player.

I didnt like the speed of the reason-lite votes that came on a player that wasnt here to respond. I am tired of freaking repeating myself. I didnt "bail" because there was more pressure (please quote where I said that). I dont just vote for the sake of voting. I dont just unvote for the sake of silly unvoting. I no longer felt like it was where my vote wanted to be. HOWEVER, I wanted Shanba to know that I still expected him to answer my question.

Two scenarios would make sense:
1. ckd is scum w/ Shanba
2. ckd knows that Shanba is town

both are wrong

~~~

ckd pointed out that cicero left him out of a player breakdown. the interaction between cicero and ckd following that seems really scummy.

why?

the scumtell that I've left out up until now is that I believe scum are more interested in what other players think of them than townies are.

that is the biggest load of bullpoopoo I have ever heard.

I also think that scum like to collect the opinions of other players in order to better formulate a safe opinion to have,

I asked Cicero his opinion on me, to form an opinion on myself? That doesnt even make sense.

and identify perspective wagon to follow through on. Billy's most recent post is a scumtell due to this, as is ckd trying to dig information out of cicero.

Tell me again, what information was I trying to dig out of Cicero?

the breakdown:

ckd-scum/cicero-town:

ckd was trying to get information out of cicero, or trying to tie himself to cicero (simenon's point)

(see above) How is asking Cicero to state his opinion on me today = scum trying to dig for information to form opinions about others? I also dont understand how this = me tying myself to Cicero.

ckd-scum/cicero-scum:

ckd was trying to distance from cicero, and pointing out a mistake of cicero's (leaving out his scumbuddy) before someone else caught it

So I am scum pointing out my scum buddies fault, thus thrusting us into the limelight?!?..keep stretching.

ckd-town/cicero-town:

ckd is trying to get cicero on the record , since he is usually nk'd by people who neglect him in player breakdowns (ckd's defense, we're still waiting for evidence, which I doubt will be conclusive -- I totally don't buy it)

seems like you have already made a decision there...

ckd-town/cicero-scum:

same as above.

Following my initial vote for ckd, his first line of defense is to say that I am not normally so close-minded. (265)

my defense? I thought state my defense came later?

Two minutes later he speculates if I would've said anything about cicreo leaving him out if he hadn't pointed it out. (266)

so?

265, 273, 274, are rhetorical attemts to control the dialog at this point. He wanted me to write his defense for him by listing reasons he could have a town motivation for his action. Once he gives up on this trick, he posts

did you miss this part?

I have trouble understanding the motivation for ckd-town making that post, lit is like waving a sign saying "I'm lurking!".

so the answer is "No, I really can not think of any other reason why CKD would ask why Cicero why he did not mention him in an apparent break down"

I didnt notice that Cicero left Fonz off as well, or I might not had made the comment the way I did. I thought the post was a mini break down of Cicero's thoughts on everyone. I was curious where I stood on that list. I think it is important to get those thoughts in now, versus later. One of the things I am noticing in my games when I am NKed, is that my killer does not really mention me the day(s) before my kill. So when I see someone (who I feel is doing a mini break down of players) not mention me...small alarms sound.

Also, since I dont feel like I have been not been contributing, I was wondering why I was left out...so not only did I want to know what Cicero thought, I was curious why he left me out...I thought my comment would spur conversation on the subject.

I couldnt figure out why Cicero would do a mini break down, but not mention me...obviously he wasnt doing that...


also adel, I think you do play differently every game in regards to your agreesiveness. But being narrow minded is a new thing. I was curious how someone with your experience could only think of scum theories why I would ask Cicero that question, but not think of any town reasons to do so. I guess I over estimated your ability to look at things from different prespectives (noted for future).

DO you think you tunnel vision or bulldozer?

why did he wait until this post to post his defense?

Adel, you are not this ridiculous..I refuse to believe that you are this insane. I wanted to see if you really wanted us to believe that you could not come up with any town reason why I did that....

YOu continued to avoid the question. Even though you DID state that you didnt know why I did it (or why town would do it)...I just wanted to confirm that you truly lacked the skills to form those theories...when you confirmed that you just simply lacked the capacity to do so..I explained why I did it...

Note that here stumbles upon the next wave of his rhetorical defense: get Adel to argue that she is narrow-minded. Nice! I totally fell for it.

What? I made you agrue this? Oh dippy doo jesus. I think that I agreed with you multiple times...how did I make you argue this point? and lets play for second in Adel's make-believe land. Lets say I dubiously made you agure that you were narrow minded...how in crap's sake does that make me scummy?

The framing of that (narrow minded) is far less than flattering. I approach scum hunting like I do a math or physics problem: I identify a promising or interesting approach and try to work it through. Sometimes that means eliminating a problematic variable via the lynch. It usually requires that I post with false confidence in order to get anywhere. On this side of the screen I am very agnostic about everyone's alignment. I see mafia as a random system that can only be narrowly tweaked. I usually have two or three closely competing theories for who is most likely to be scum as well as two or three closely competing theories for who could be a group of scum.

I put money down that if I do hang or am night killed tonight and flip town, she will be referencing this little post later.

I feel like ckd had accomplished a pretty neat feat by discrediting me (narrow-minded)

LOL, I agreed with you! You made me change my opinion of you

and seriously undermining the legitimacy of any case I may make in this game. I'm working too damn hard in this game to let that happen.




First of all I've won my last 5 games as town in a row, and 70% out of my last 10 games as town and 73% of my last 15 games as town. I survived in 3/11, and was nk'd or daykilled 6/11 and lynched twice for those wins.

]I can identify scum, and my technique for identifying them works. I am not narrow-minded, I am effective.

Wow, dont believe her? She will throw numbers at you. WHo cares what your stats as town are...do we know you are town here?

Currently my biggest tell against ckd is that he fits my profile of scum:
1. no active scumhunting
2. fake votes on an easy target as a placeholder for actual activity
3. rapid response to any any attack that relies upon shifting the focus and responding to questions with diverting questions. Note his numerous posts on tangents which are then followed up by "what is your point". It is much more pro-town to attempt to just settle the case against you. ckd attempts to obfuscate it via volume of posts and attacking my credibility.

you have got to be kidding me with those points. Adel you know I post frequently. In house mafia (which you contributed to our loss, I guess that one was not in your last 5), Armlxscum tried to say that my posting style was a signal that I was fustrated scum and pushed a case...you should remember that...if you dont go check it out...check out Underground Mafia again that you were in..same posting style...check Small town Heroes..same deal.

I no longer think you are actively trying to scum hunt. I think you are trying to scrape together ANYTHING to form a case on me...you dont care if they make sense...or if it is ..or is warping facts...or are giant leaps in assumptions. I can not see anyone protown push this. You are conviently forgetting things that you should know. This is scummy

vote Adel

no doubt you will try to push that this is a scummy OMGUS vote...

there Adel, I cleaned it up for you so you have no reason to avoid it.

[curiouskarmadog]

I'm electing not to interact with ckd for a while, preferring civil company.

Awww...you want to push a case, but dont want to acknowledge my response. Also the fact that you posted that again is having interaction with me....thats "logick bitches".

[curiouskarmadog]

wait a minute..it is ok for you to use profanities..but when I do it is too much for you?

[curiouskarmadog]

just because you are ignoring my question Adel, doesnt mean they will go away.

[curiouskarmadog]

I'm extremely interested to hear Sim's thoughts on CKD's original response to Adel.

while we wait, maybe we can hear yours.

[curiouskarmadog]

this sounds really familiar..Adel, have we been in a game before together and you refused to answer my questions with your "Crystalline logic" (and if I recall right, it was logic then not logick) because you complained about the wall of words it would cause?...if I remember right, I kept pushing you, then you declared you thought I was town and if you answered my questions it might get me lynched.....I was new then and let it go...

I was still lynched that game, I was town, you were scum, lynched the next day.

Going to have to give that game another skim me thinks.

I dont care if you dont like my tone..this is mafia...Are you scared to answer my questions? If you really think I am scummy like you are pushing, dont you want to prove my scumminess to the best of your ability? You are pushing that I was scum for backing off the shanba BW, so are you not scummy for backing off YOUR case you are pushing? OR do you see that currently it is a lost cause, and will pick it back up when you have more of the town with you?

I think you should address this now..dont deflect or divert any more.

[curiouskarmadog]

If we were to continue the wall of words battle it would corrupt the signal:noise ratio and make it harder for town to identify scum,

we are in an advanced game here...I dont think anyone here (well maybe Oman) is afriad of reading through a "wall of words". Why are you making that assumption for everybody?..what are you afraid of?

[curiouskarmadog]

You know what, I will even meet you half way. One civil question at a time.

You are pushing that I am deliberating spamming this thread for scummy reasons. Adel, in all 3 games that we have shared (two most recent for everyone's reference: Underground mafia and House mafia) Havent I posted the same in regards to frequency and content length? When I get frustrated or "emotional", I tend to post frequently back to back. Please feel free to review those threads again before answering this question.

Follow up question:

Werent you in the game (House Mafia) that armlxscum tried to push that I was scum because of a.) my language and b.) for the frequency of my posts. (should be noted: that his angle was that I was emotional and only scum has reason to get emotional).

[curiouskarmadog]

EDIT:
(should be noted: that his angle was that I was emotional and only scum has reason to get emotional....)....which is completely different than what Adel is implying.

My point is, that Adel was in that game and that was a major point in lynching armlx was for that silly point of his case.

[curiouskarmadog]

I don't remember that part of the armix case. I remember being pretty gung-ho about lynching him, but I don't really recall

why

. I doubt that you would significantly misrepresent that though, so I will cede the point-- I'm apparently making the same point against you that armix did in House mafia.

EDIT:
(should be noted: that his angle was that I was emotional and only scum has reason to get emotional....)....which is completely different than what Adel is implying.

what exactly am I implying and misrepresenting? Funny how you pick and chose what to answer.

and again, you are avoiding questions..I will repost it again.

You know what, I will even meet you half way. One civil question at a time.

You are pushing that I am deliberating spamming this thread for scummy reasons. Adel, in all 3 games that we have shared (two most recent for everyone's reference: Underground mafia and House mafia) Havent I posted the same in regards to frequency and content length? When I get frustrated or "emotional", I tend to post frequently back to back. Please feel free to review those threads again before answering this question.

Havent I posted with the same frequency and content length in all the games we have been in together..

please dont avoid this question...and quit deflecting.

[curiouskarmadog]

cross post.

uncivil? I assume you are referring to my cursing...then you didnt reread House before answering. Insults? I think the biggest insult was that you are insane...everything else is scum related. Like you pushing "crap" trying to say it as scum hunting.

[curiouskarmadog]

Since Adel seems to have problems answer questions...I will address this to everyone.

"the scumtell that I've left out up until now is that I believe scum are more interested in what other players think of them than townies are."

I am interested in what other thinks of this. Do you agree with her? Do you think that she really believes this?

[curiouskarmadog]

@Oman: why have you made 20 posts in other threads since your last post in this game?

Because this is an invitational, I feel no need to spout posts left and right. In fact, I'd much rather just watch you all and think to myself. I'm reading, and responding, but I am trying hard to change up the playstyle a bit, as you apparently did Adel, just to find something new and different.

Basically, I'm not usually a good townie, and I'm trying to improve my scumhutning.

how do you scum hunt without asking question? I didnt know it could be a passive thing.

[curiouskarmadog]

Mod, please prod Shanba

[curiouskarmadog]

I assume when you get back, you will answer in a little more depth.

and I dont really think you are reading Adel's post

[curiouskarmadog]

Logic goes "Shanba not posting, vote shanba to get him to post, oh, others voted Shanba?, well, he's not around so what good does the vote do here if he isn't posting, unvote Shanba, but consider my vote to still be there."

BT, can you please quote a post that I said I was voting Shanba to get him talking. Also, can you please quote Adel where she said I voted Shanba to get him talking.


When you cant find it, plesae tell me again why you are voting for me.

[curiouskarmadog]

ok I can see why you thought that.

I thought that Shanba was directly avoiding answering my question, which upped the scum factor in my book...Once I found out that he was gone and was unable to answer questions, that lowered the scum factor. If you dont believe look at he post...Shafted posted (183) that Shanba hadnt been on site "since friday"..upon reading that and checking it out I immediately unvoted (186).

Coupled with the fact that people were also jumping on him for no reason knowing that he wsnt around...it just didnt seem right to me. I have explained this numerous times already.

[curiouskarmadog]

Jitsu, couple points I need clarification on...where did I "sling mud" at Adel...I am not sure what you are referring to (was it my cursing?)...where did I say I would stop "slinging mud" (I just said I would remove the curse words)...and once a said that, where did I "resling the mud"...just not sure what you are are talking about here.

also, Jitsu and BT, where am I trying to discredit Adel?...I feel like her attack on me is scummy so I point out the flaws in her attacks..when I do, she refuses to address them. To say someone is discrediting someone is scummy is silly. A case against someone you feel is scummy will eventually have the result of trying to discredit said person. Hell, by definition, a vote against someone is a discredit. If you are using those terms then, Adel is trying to discredit me by stating "he is spamming the thread" when she knows that simply is not true...yet Jitsu and BT seem dont use the term "discredit" in regards to that point of her case.

why? isnt that discrediting..but in this case, simply a lie?

[curiouskarmadog]

shafted, how do you define probe? Me, asking questions and getting reactions....You feel it is something else? Was I not probing when asking Shanba the question and voting..was I not probing (then attacked) for commenting on Cicero's mini cap, have I not probed Adel at all?

seems to me that I might be in the top 3 probers of this game.

I see you probing..asking question, then asking thought out follow ups, I am just curious how you see me as not probing.

who do you feel are the top 3 "probers" of the game..bottom three?

[curiouskarmadog]

also, used to hearing more from vollkan...Vollkan, requesting you patented % break down please.

[curiouskarmadog]

I think you are correct in regards to my probing of Adel. Her case was poor and from my pov disgenious, that is why I attacked and got angry. I was going somewhere with Shanba until he disappeared..since then (the unvote), it does feel like I have been on the defensive (in regards to everyone but adel)

well, maybe I will try to reread and give a good old fashion player by player break down. Since it looks like I am getting the majority of heat atm I should get my thoughts out there while I can....going to be gone most of the weekend, so hopefully next week.

point on vollkan, I feel his playstyle has been changing as of late...due to ongoing games I can not go into detail yet, but I am used to a different vollkan.

[curiouskarmadog]

I am still here...getting my game ready to mod, work has been busy, and I am getting behind on a couple other games...should be posting back here by Thursday....hopefully with a mini Player by player break down, but no promises.

[curiouskarmadog]

That's nice.

Deadline is Wednesday.

dammit, didnt know that...ok, will get something later today, though I doubt it will be a player by player thing.

[curiouskarmadog]

point on vollkan, I feel his playstyle has been changing as of late...due to ongoing games I can not go into detail yet, but I am used to a different vollkan.

What do you think this means? I understand you can't comment on his behavior in ongoing games, but can't you still make comparisons between his behavior here in this game and his other completed games?

Well, I would immediately say that I find this strange and quite scummy, however, I have made that mistake in regards to vollkan recently (meta my games for more information)...besides, he is not doing a pretty thorough break down of people..and once he is done, that comparsion could be important (later)....I am not advocating making town/scum lists (never for town lists)..but I think it is important for people to make stances today.

The unvote was very bad, as was his subsequent explanation of it.

I know at this point you dont know what my alignment is, but I request that we discuss this issue (which some points to as proof I am scum) at end game when we all know each other's alignment. Right now I dont think this is a point. I dont vote (not including random voting) usually just to vote. So if I feel like my vote shoudnt be on someone I remove it. Even though I dont have a place to put it. I keep tracks of my stats and lynches. I dont jump on wagons to jump on wagons and I dont lynch to lynch. I have trying to improve my lynched right/lynch wrong ratio. Currently I have 17 right 15 wrong as town. This means little, unless you compare it to the amount of games I am in. I have been in 33 completed games, and have been part of 33 lynches. that is one lynch per game on average. I simply dont jump on wagons unless I feel there is something there. same goes for staying on them. Right now, I dont know if these attacks about this unvote are scum driven or not. I think that they are, but I also understand that day 1 people are looking for ANYTHING that COULD BE scummy.

So after the game ends, if Adel (and others) could come back (or stay around) for a discussion on this issue. Obviously I am paranoid about people's REAL opinion on this, right now. I am curious how people will defend this as a scum action, once my alignment is known. ATM, I think it is scum fueled...but if it is not, I am still curious.

BT last post I need to address, some flaws in it.

he spent a non trivial amount of time referencing past games and getting conversation turned to Adel's "narrow-mindedness", etc, which I don't feel was very valid at the time.

First of all it is Day 1, without a night to go off. What else do you talk about other than game theory? Also, if you remember, I started off the conversation with, I dont think that Adel is very narrowminded at all. Then I was told I was wrong, and Adel even mentioned that her labels...so you have no right to say that I steered the conversation that way.

I am unequivocally against lynching a lurker.

says the man who has been lurking a good portion of the game. SO if you are scum and your partner was lurking, wouldnt you be pushing the same thing? This is why many lurkerscum win...I hope you dont plan on having this theory all game. For if you are not scum, you just game them a game plan to avoid your vote. Just for the record, BT, who do you feel should be put in a lurker category today?

This being said, I think that people should vote for who they think is scum. Not a lurker, unless you think that their lurking in this game is scummy or the few posts they have posted are scummy.

+++

Thoughts on players

Adel, I have stated my opinion on Adel. She is pushing a case on me that she can not possibly believe. She is trying to spin my every action into a scummy one. If I am hung today (or vigged tonight), I am quite interested how she is preparing to defend her actions tomorrow. For I do hope she is put into the crucible for her attacks today. Now, she is pushing for dice tags…maybe she can possibly believe that crappy case. Pushes for my lynch again, when BT calls her out for more bad logic.

BT, Have not been impressed (until the past couple of pages) and I am not sure what he is doing in this game. We are 20 pages into this game, and he has only posted 10 posts. (make that 12 as I am putting this together), though he has a reason. Also against lynching a lurker(I think this REALLY needs to be noted for later). I would be interested to see if this is a common argument he makes as town in other games…if I have time I might do a meta. Most of his posts which are comments and votes on the hot wagon of the hour. This isn’t completely accurate though as of late, he is still pushing my wagon, and that has died off, but just got support again from Adel.

He makes a good point here.

I completely disagree with Assumption 2. A CKD lynch should give YOU of all people more information than you could hope for today. He's listed in about half of your possible scum-pairings right? There has been a preponderance of players commenting on, attacking, and defending CKD. Knowing his alignment would go a long way to unraveling day 1 info. Plus, you CLAIM TO THINK HE IS SCUM.

BT, why do you think that Adeltown would be pushing for dicetag to lynch a lurker, when she has pushed all day that I am scum. I know you mentioned you are nervous about it, but why do you think she is doing it today? She stands behind her “logic” and wants everyone to believe I am scum, but now a deadline looms she just wants to use dicetags to determine a lynch. I haven’t decided on BT. Gut says scum, but rereading his posts and seeing that he isn’t supporting a lurker vote when it would be easy to do so, sort of indicates town for me. Unless he knows that all the lurker lynch possibilities are town, but this is a stretch.

Cicero, I enjoy my games with Cicero. In both games we shared I thought he was scum at one point or another (in both games he was town). Seems to be defending me somewhat, and it is appreciated. Though, it should be noted, it is easier to defend someone as town, when you know they are town. As the day comes to a close, I am interested to see where his votes actually ends up.

Ergo, pretty low content all game (couple posts more than BT). Promised more 6 days ago. Has done absolutely no scum hunting. Disappointing. Currently still has his random vote on Oman. How is this pro-town? Your thoughts on Oman currently? Not impressed at all.

Jitsu, I have not gotten any scum tells from Jitsu. I am not sure I understand vollkan’s attack against him or why he has him as the scummiest (thus far). He is asking questions, “probing”, and filling this game with his opinion on content. Though I feel his post frequency is quite lower than I have seen from him. That being said, got a good feeling about him.

Oman, seems like he has been the vote leader for awhile and I am not sure why. Especially with all the action that has been happening in the past week. He is almost like the negative imagine of Jitsu. High post frequency, but little content per post. I am beginning to get a better read on Oman has I play with him more. My meta on him says town.

Shafted, Is a good player. As I play with my heart on my sleeve, post with emotion, and hate to proofread, shafted, is thought out and meticulous. This makes shafted a good player as town and scum (I have seen him as both). I am in the middle of the road on shafted at the moment. For those that saw shafted’s performance in House mafia, you know what a good scum he can be…that makes me hesitant to go one way or the other Day 1.

Shanba, lurker. Plan and simple. His last post, demonstrates that he really has not read the thread, but just posted based on a skim. I think that and his vote on Oman that he has left and has not removed (even though he knows there is a deadline and he has not read) is scummy. I think his lurking in this manner is scummy. Leaning scum.

Simenon, I don’t know why, but I feel like Simenon is disingenuous. It is just a feeling or a vibe. He post seem coy to me for some reason. I don’t think I have played enough with Simenon to know his play. You state you will not vote me unless you have too, I am curious Sime, what circumstances would make you “have too”? You mentioned you don’t like Cicero and Adel’s efforts to remove lurkers, what do you think of BT’s thoughts…Adel’s vote change and BT called her out?

The Fonz, THE BIGGEST DISAPPOINTMENT OF THE GAME. Fonz is a great player. I put him in the category of shafted. He has bested me as scum. I was looking forward to seeing him in action this game. His lurking is sad and I am not sure what to make of it. He attacked shafted for lurking in plan site, then disappears. Would scum do that?...seems like a poor play that is below Fonz. Of course, it is a poor play if he is town too.

Vollkan, has always been a tough nut to crack. Like shafted and the fonz, he plays well as scum and town. His play before his player break downs were suspicious, but due to a current meta is a null tell. I like reading his break downs and I appreciate that fact that he is putting his takes and stances today of everyone, when so many are not. I am interesting where his vote will end up today…I am leaning town.

[curiouskarmadog]

sigh, I was really hoping to be in this game longer...have a feeling that I will be the lynch today. I guess there is something to lurking day 1 after all (noting Ergo and Fonz's standings in vollkan's break down) Vollkan, I am surprised you think I am scummier than Adel, and put lurkers so low on your list, but oh well.

Please hold Adel to the fire tomorrow for her bullshit today. Dont let her squirm out of the crap she sold today. Ask yourself why if she thought I was scum, did she want to use dice tags to lynch lurkers as deadline loomed, but only changed her vote back once BT called her out for it...the information from my lynch needs to be used, dont let me fucking die in vain.

I also really want to have that conversation about my unvote = the biggest scummy move day 1. Once you find out my role and my alginment, will that adjust you thoughts on the topic for future games? Cant wait to see if this was really scum fueled or not. If it isnt. Adel, you should be ashamed of your play today.

[curiouskarmadog]

That having been said, CKD, if you are going to spend the last two days using a pity party defense coupled with a soft claim, you may as well claim.

Agreed, if you're going to claim what I think you're going to claim please do it faster so that we can find an alternate lynch candidate.

if I dont claim, or if I do, the affect most likely will be the same...I wont see Day 2.

it is most protown for me to claim, vanilla townie.

[curiouskarmadog]

SIme, nothing to be answered, it is your stance on things, doesnt feel geniune to me (mostly a vibe at this point). I am interested in seeing the results of your reconsideration.

Also, I take back what I said about Fonz being the biggest disappointment...I never check the v/la thread, I usually just post in all my games when I am leaving...that being said, I would like a little more from him before today ends.

[curiouskarmadog]

shafted, for the record..given a choice between me and Adel who would you chose and why?

[curiouskarmadog]

shafted, for the record..given a choice between me and Adel who would you chose and why?

I'd choose Adel. Some of the attacks she threw at you were flawed. Yet I still feel your counter to her was also a bit short-sited and your vote was really not backed up outside of OMGUS. The dice tags thing was very strange to me. In sum I think you're both looking a bit scummy to me, and (no offense Adel) I think if you're town you'd be more valuable.

Unvote Vote CKD

I still don't believe he's scum, but he has a higher chance of being scum then me.

well that puts me at 4 and Adel at 2. (Oman, you should note that I could have voted you thus putting you at 4 first, I didnt, because I didnt think you were scum)

guess I am confused why I am being lynched. Currently my vote and cicero's are on are adel...both fonz and Sime have mentioned they would prefer an adel vote over myself...

well, plenty of people can now state they were against my lynch(or felt it wasnt the play of the day) tomorrow...but it is noted how few really did anything to stop it.

[curiouskarmadog]

consider this my "bah" post

thats fine, I really can not believe I am being lynched because I unvoted Shanba..I mean essentially that is it. I understand we are at Day 1 and my lynch will provide information. BT is right in that regard.

tomorrow for those lurkers and skimmers, please look more closely at Adel's "case" against me today, you will see that it is chalked full of crap. There is no way you are going to fucking win this game(town), letting tunnel visioning fools (yes, that is jab) lead you around by the nose.
Also, I really cant believe that the majority didnt even bat an eye lash at the fact that Adel had been tooting that I was scum all day, but then wanted to use dice tags to lynch a lurker...YET, my unvote was scummy. wow.

I still want to have the talk after game...

This part wont mean much until, my alignment is revealed. Of cousre, look at Adel. BUt also review vollkan, cicero, and Sime at little more closely. Replace those lurkers, because Ergo, the Fonz, and Shanba were really sad Day 1 (they all might have reasons, but that doesnt really change that fact). I have a feeling Fonz might start playing more. I feel good about BT (now) and shafted (if they flip scum at the end we can all have a laugh).

The game unfornately has taught me that if I am playing with all experienced players I should a.) keep a vote I dont agree with just to not look scummy and b.) lurk just enough to avoid suspicion on Day 1.

WIsh I could be around longer....thanks for the game. Will be reading.

[curiouskarmadog]

Also, (promise last thing)...I want this close to my death scene.

I can identify scum, and my technique for identifying them works. I am not narrow-minded, I am effective.

Currently my biggest tell against ckd is that he fits my profile of scum:
1. no active scumhunting
2. fake votes on an easy target as a placeholder for actual activity
3. rapid response to any any attack that relies upon shifting the focus and responding to questions with diverting questions. Note his numerous posts on tangents which are then followed up by "what is your point". It is much more pro-town to attempt to just settle the case against you. ckd attempts to obfuscate it via volume of posts and attacking my credibility.

logick: it works, bitches.