mini #585 - A Tempest Has Formed (Over), Thanks Patrick!!

[iamausername]

/Confirm

[iamausername]

Vote: alvinz95

for being first alphabetically.

I'm making it a tradition. You got lucky this time, ashmite.

[iamausername]

Maybe he was making his vote appear on the second page to make sure everyone sees it. Trying to start a bandwagon, perhaps?

Yes, I'm reaching.

[iamausername]

Well, FoSes don't really mean anything in terms of game mechanics, it's just an established shorthand for "I find this person suspicious, but, for whatever reason, don't wish to vote for them at this time".

That said, I'm not really sure what Gaspode was getting at with the accusation. Scum often try having someone else vote for them, then "change" their vote to them again? I don't think it's suspicious that ashmite commented on the strangeness of Mellowed Man's actions, because it was a really strange thing to do.

I'm on board for a "evilgorrilaz likes bandwaggoning" bandwagon, so

Unvote, Vote: evilgorrilaz

.

[iamausername]

I'm not a big fan of rundowns in general, especially organized mass ones. I just don't find them all that productive. Also, I almost never think about who's "most townly"--my focus is always on who's most suspicious.

Actually, people stating who they think is the most townly could prove to be useful later, when scum is lynched or NK'ed by the vigilante. Scum may have stated their partner like that, if they were stupid enough. But you do have a point. This is scum-hunting.

It also holds a big sign above someone's head saying "Scum, here's your night kill!" I really don't think the potential positives (which, as you say, only apply if the scum are stupid, and it's always best to assume they aren't) outweigh the potential negatives.

I leaning towards Elias because he is definitely experienced, (2128 posts!), and his scum record is considerably high and has been scum 11 times (

not like it has anything to do with this game, but hey, it might!

). IC's usually won't lurk like that. I'm not sure at all, but if there is one scum in those group of lurkers, then I'd say Elias.

I'm with you on the anti-lurker feelings, but singling out Elias, no. ICs lurk all the time. And the bit about his high scum record is the very definition of Gambler's Fallacy. I really don't like the bit I've bolded especially, and the whole post in general seems like an attempt to start a bandwagon based on some really shaky evidence, with enough disclaimers put in for alvinz to weasel out of any responsibility for it.

Not sure it's substantial enough for a vote, but I'm definitely getting a bad vibe from alvinz, and I'll be keeping an eye out for more.

[iamausername]

As I said, it's not substantial enough for a vote. I'm just throwing some ideas out to see what the reactions are, because we've still not got a lot to go on so far.

I don't think Elias is scum at all (lynch all lurkers is a bad policy), but, what I meant was that if there was scum in that group then I would say Elias. I'm not starting a wagon at all. I was just agreeing with Gaspode on the lurker opinion and giving a thought on it. Non of that was "evidence" to support a Elias lynch, because he is BY FAR, not on my scum list, because lynching someone just because they are lurking is not townly at all, especially if they have only posted one thing. The scum record was just tagged in for fun hence the parenthesis and "not like it has anything to do with this game, but hey, it might" which shows that it was merely a small joke. And, in the games I've played in, IC's usually don't lurk, and will give a heads up if they're going to be away. I find that you are getting irritated of such a menial thing like a small comment on lurkers, which isn't scumhunting, but just a thought. And you've misinterpreted some parts like the overall meaning (you think that I'm seriously scum-hunting, like using statistics as evidence, but I'm actually not) which is scummy.

I still disagree that Elias is any more likely to be scum than any other lurkers. And your 'joke' didn't read like one to me, but that's completely subjective, and I'll accept that you're probably telling the truth there.

And can you reexplain "Scum, here's your night kill!" I'm not too sure what you mean. Can't scum determine who's most townly them selves? (if that is what you mean)

Well, if there's a certain player that a lot of people say in thread is pro-town, and no one thinks is scummy, scum will be likely to NK them because they'll know for sure that they'll have trouble getting a bandwagon going on that person, and there won't really be any way to link them to the kill. I mean, sure, to a certain extent, they can find the most townie looking players without our help, but people stating it in thread just gives them a more definite idea of their best targets without any particular benefit to the town.

[iamausername]

OK, first of all,

unvote

, because my vote wasn't a particularly serious one when I made it, and really shouldn't still be there.

I think Gaspode is entirely correct that alvinz and Cream's argument mostly has nothing to do with scumhunting at this point. Attempting to quantify phrases like "completely uncalled for" is not at all useful, please stop it.

I've read through the game again, and I'm really having trouble coming to a firm conclusion, because pretty much everyone in this game seems fairly tough to get a read on. I'm still wary of alvinz, for the reasons stated earlier, but Mellowed Man pinged my scumdar more on reread. A lot of it is gut feeling, which I know is not particularly helpful, but I think he's been more wagon-happy than evilgorrilaz, and just generally seems to be acting fairly opportunistically.

So,

Vote: Mellowed Man

.

[iamausername]

Well, I've replaced into a 30+ page game with a deadline in about 24 hours, so that's obviously taking priority right now, but I'm still checking up on this one.

Mod: Can we get a prod on Mellowed Man?

He hasn't posted since Tuesday, and I'm waiting for his input in particular.

[iamausername]

Alright, so for some reason I think iamusername and alvinz95 are like a pair, it is just an illusion that came to my mind when rereading the 1st post of Iamusername, on page 5, etc. and so on.

Post 100 by iamusername has me on the edge, so I will try to explain tomorrow.

Still waiting for this explanation, Mellowed Man.

[iamausername]

He just posted a few hours ago, that's why I brought it up again.

[iamausername]

Looks more like you gave up on the wagon when no one else took the bait to me. Maybe you should try reading post 100 again, see if it jogs your memory, since it had you so "on the edge" before.

[iamausername]

I'm pretty sure that was a mistake, and LaptopGun is actually replacing ashmite84, who requested it a while back. It's pretty easy to get those names confused.

[iamausername]

Except that ashmite originally needed replacing because he can't get online for a week, so we'd still be waiting for someone to get back to us.

I guess we'll just have to play on as best we can until we can find out for sure. Shouldn't matter too much, because Mellowed Man is our lynch for today, guys.

[iamausername]

Yeah, I don't think the situation is dire enough for the game to need abandoning. It sucks for LaptopGun, but there's nothing we can really do about that now. I'm enjoying the game, and I'm sure we can recover from this setback.

[iamausername]

Awesome, we're fully staffed again. Cheers, Patrick, and our awesome replacements.

[iamausername]

iamausername:
Do you have something against FOSes? FOSes are basically weak lines of thought that a person is not willing to avctually vote for: it's basically saying, "If all else fails later in the game, come back here and push this." I get the impression from your post 53 that you would rather not have them.

Eh, I don't mind that other people use them, but they don't seem to serve any real purpose, as far as I can see. If you're suspicious of someone, that should be obvious from the fact that you are questioning them or explaining your reasons for finding them suspicious. And if you're not doing that, well, you should be.

Other than that, it's interesting that you are willing to stick your neck out for other people so early in the game, like in your defense of my predecesser earlier in the game.

Well, I had to go back and reread to remember what you were talking about. To be fair, I think that was at least as much about questioning Gaspode's reasoning in Post 40 as it was defending ashmite. And I now note that Gaspode never actually did explain that one. Maybe I should drop a FoS on him for that.

[iamausername]

Iamausername

: Seems solidly town so far. My only problem with him is lack of any real suspicions laid out, besides Mellowed Man of course. I'll see whether I agree with you when I get down to him. But yeah,

I'd like some thoughts on more than just him, and (if possible) more than just gut reasoning.

For now, I have a

town

read on him.

Fair enough.

I've given another reread to try to pick out new stuff, but I can't say it's unearthed very much. I note that alvinz does a whole lot of OMGUSing - pretty much any time someone's posted suspicions of him, he's FoSed them for it and attacked them as much as defended himself. Could be scum trying to intimidate people into backing away from him (if so, I'm embarrassed to admit that it apparently worked on me), could just be hotheaded town. Still don't like his craplogic on Elias -

Alvinz, since you admit that that wasn't scumhunting, why did you think it

would

help the town?

Coheed mostly just gives newbie tells rather than scum or town tells, but I'm agreeing with the suspicion about Post 247, the order he listed doesn't say much, since he's just reciting the order that they're listed on the wiki, but the fact that he's looking for anything besides scum at this point is extremely dodgy.

That's really the only two besides Mellowed Man that I've seen anything scummy enough to be worth mentioning at this point, but mainly my reread cemented my suspicions of MM. I still think the changing his random vote to the same person it was originally on is sketchy, and I think ashmite's theory on that makes more sense than anything else, I really hate his "Oh, I forgot" excuse, he hasn't made a remotely substantial post for over a week now, and his "36.89 hours" have now passed. I'd say he definitely needs more pressure at this point, because it looks to me like he's trying to slip under the radar.

[iamausername]

Alvinz, since you admit that that wasn't scumhunting, why did you think it would help the town?

It would help discussion moving as I said before... Like random votes get discussion rolling but they aren't scum-hunting.

And did you not think that by that stage of the game (Post 94, most of the way through page 4, btw), there were more useful things you could be doing, like, say, actually scumhunting?

[iamausername]

Vote: Matt_S

Young man, you need to explain your actions.

[iamausername]

Wait, if you're town, and he's scum, but people are seeing you as scummy, why would it be a good idea for him to buddy up with you?

Votecount

Alvinz95 (2) -- Gaspode, Cream147
Mellowed Man (1) -- iamausername
CoheedCambria09 (2) -- Marmalade, Elias_the_thief
Cream147 (2) -- Alvinz95, populartajo
Matt_S (1) -- Mellowed Man

Not voting: Matt_S, Skruffs, Evilgorrilaz
12 alive, 7 to lynch.

[iamausername]

No access till May 10 due to finals.

Well, great. Still think MM is scummiest, but there's no point trying to pressure him when he's not even here, so

Unvote, Vote: Coheed

. He seems to have vanished since his big "oh, the wiki only tells you how to catch scum, that's no help" mistake, maybe he's hoping we'll forget about him. No such luck.

[iamausername]

Well, we've had 13 pages, that ought to be enough to get some kind of read on everyone. Who do you think is most likely scum, and why?

[iamausername]

Again:
If you think someone is scummy why would you give them an out by saying you will wait until they are 'back'? If I was scum and someone quasi defended me by saying "well let's let him get away with it until he gets back" - do you think I would make any effort to 'come back'? Considering I would have a free ride until then?

Fos: iamausername

and possibly mellowman.

Mellowed Man specified a date that he'll be coming back, and trust me, I'll be right back on his case as soon as May 10th rolls around. But until then, I can better serve the town by putting pressure on other scummy players.

I was also getting pretty frustrated with the fact that everybody else seems to have been perfectly happy to let him get away with extremely scummy behaviour for so long. There's no point in voting for him if no one else is going to even when he never makes a post longer than one line, casts suspicion on someone without giving a reason and then says "oh, I forgot" when pressed for one, makes a post saying "I'll catch up in 36 hours" then doesn't post again for almost a week, and when he does it's just to vote for someone for no apparent reason, again.

I'm actually kind of outraged that you're getting at

me

for going easy on him.

[iamausername]

he never makes a post longer than one line, casts suspicion on someone without giving a reason and then says "oh, I forgot" when pressed for one, makes a post saying "I'll catch up in 36 hours" then doesn't post again for almost a week, and when he does it's just to vote for someone for no apparent reason, again.

Skruffs, here's me bringing to light some things I find scummy about Mellowed Man. Care to discuss?

I'm pretty confused by what point you're trying to make with the Satan analogy, but in the game of Mafia, I absolutely think it's a good idea to give someone a chance to convince you that they aren't actually evil before you lynch them. If I could convince you and five others that MM is scum, would you be fine with lynching him right now without giving him a chance to respond?

And I think it needs to be said that I'm NOT dropping the case on Mellowed Man. I was planning to put it on the backburner and pursue other avenues while he's away, and bring it back to the fore when he returns. That said, I also think there is a good chance of Coheed being scum, and his response to my vote was deeply unsatisfying.

Limited to no access until Monday May 12th

Well then,

Unvote, Vote: Mellowed Man

. I don't think anyone besides these two deserves my vote, and he's the scummier of the two. Guess I'll just have to sit and twiddle my thumbs for a couple of days.

[iamausername]

I think you (Iamausername) are onto me for one reason:

I pointed you out as scummy, with another person earlier in the game, and you have "suspected" me since. What a reaction!

Maybe if you'd actually had any reason to point to me as scummy, this would be a reasonable point.

[iamausername]

Mod:

Can we get prods on Marmalade and populartajo? Both have been active elsewhere on the site recently, but not posted here in over a week.

IT's a toss up between Cream and Coheed at the moment,a nd since Coheed is AFK for the next ten days, I can't very well vote him, can I?

If I was scum and someone quasi defended me by saying "well let's let him get away with it until he gets back" - do you think I would make any effort to 'come back'

Can you explain to me your sudden change of heart?

This needs an answer.

[iamausername]

So why would you be voting for Coheed if you weren't busy attacking straw men?

[iamausername]

Votecount

Alvinz95 (2) -- Gaspode, Cream147
Mellowed Man (3) -- iamausername, Elias_the_thief, Matt_S
CoheedCambria09 (1) -- Marmalade
Cream147 (3) -- Alvinz95, populartajo, Skruffs
Matt_S (1) -- Mellowed Man

Not voting: Evilgorrilaz
12 alive, 7 to lynch.

I am not sure what your very last post means: Is Cream147 a straw man? IF so, why? How? what is a strawman?

Please explain yourself better because your question strikes me as the equivalent of "Are you still beating your wife?"

Yes, it was a bit of a leading question.

https://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Straw_Man

"A "Straw man" argument (also called "setting up a straw man") involves mischracterizing your opponent's position in order to present a weaker argument than they have actually given, thereby allowing you to defeat it. It usually involves subtle changes to the given facts of the matter, or minor changes to wording that lead to semantic differences in what is said."

Your straw man argument here is "some players think that you must never attack players who are absenttee". Nobody has said this.

I presented a clear case for why I think Mellowed Man is scum, and was waiting for a response to him. When he indicated that he'd be away, and thus unable to provide this response for a few days, I temporarily turned my attentions to another player I found scummy, because

in this particular case

, I didn't feel that I could progress any further with Mellowed Man without receiving a response.

You, on the other hand, have made virtually no arguments for why you think Coheed is scum, and are now calling him scummy but failing to provide these arguments based on your straw man.

---

So, rephrasing my original question; what do you think is scummy about Coheed? If he wasn't currently absent, would you be voting him over Cream? If so, why did you decide to vote against what you actually believe in order to prove a (fallacious) point?

[iamausername]

Alvinz, since you admit that that wasn't scumhunting, why did you think it would help the town?

It would help discussion moving as I said before... Like random votes get discussion rolling but they aren't scum-hunting.

And did you not think that by that stage of the game (Post 94, most of the way through page 4, btw), there were more useful things you could be doing, like, say, actually scumhunting?

Never got an answer to this, alvinz.

---

First off, Iamusername never had a clear case.

I thought the last paragraph of Post #272 was pretty concise. You could maybe argue that it's not a

good

case, but I don't think I was lacking clarity.

And I agree with someone that said that this game has become a bit repetitive for my taste. To regain conversation, how about everyone posting their top suspects. Cool?

Well, mine's pretty much the same as the last time I posted it; Mellowed, Coheed, alvinz. Although I'm starting to think Skruffs might have a point on Matt with the mason fishing.

[iamausername]

No access until Monday May 19th.

Welcome back!

Unvote, Vote: Coheed

. No more lurking, please.

[iamausername]

Lurking, I've been away for the past 2 weekends (4-5 days each, long weekend + conference) and have been bogged down with my OSAID stuff, I'll reread and try to post tomorrow or wednesday, i have a huge history essay due on. And evilz why do you think I'm so scummy?

Posting just to say you're not lurking doesn't count as not lurking. You haven't really said anything for about a month.

[iamausername]

Either Coheed is scum or I got some scum following me onto his wagon.

Unvote, Vote: Coheed

Either Coheed or popular is the vote for the day, neither of these playeres are really going out there and stating their observations. Let's just do this.

Looks like you're giving up on making a case on someone you ACTUALLY appear to think is scum.

=/

Same to others who have decided let's vote Coheed because he lurks like crazy. Then, he comes up townie, what next? I'm not buying it yet.

Mellowed is probably either pro-town or Coheed's buddy.

I just went back and read my posts, and found who I had thought to be most suspicious, and then read their posts, and that person was Cream.

I just went back and read your posts and you mentioned Cream once up to this point, saying alvinz had good points against him, but you'd wait for Cream to respond. Evilgorrilaz, on the other hand, was mentioned as suspicious in ten posts, including two votes. Please explain this discrepancy.

[iamausername]

Cream was the last person I had said I was suspicious of

This is also not true, quite a few of your posts claiming suspicions of evilgorrilaz came after your post on Cream.

I'll be fine with a tajo lynch

Why?

[iamausername]

Iamausername: You slipped a vote on Coheed earlier, but I'm not sure as to why?

I've been saying for a long time that I don't think he's been contributing at all, and there's also the fact that he made this post [emphasis mine]:

Agreed about Jeep's tells, over half of them are not even finished,

though they can be helpful for finding

Cop, Doc, or

Scum there isnt much else there.

That, and the fact that Mellowed has been looking more pro-town to me lately, was my initial reason for switching my vote to Coheed.

Since then, my suspicions have been further increased by his claiming that Cream has always been the person he's been most suspicious of, when there's a lot of evidence in his earlier posts that suggests that this isn't the case, and now his "I'll go along with a populartajo lynch" post.

Basically, I think he's been going along with whatever townie wagons are popular - evilgorrilaz was the biggest wagon early in the day, when that fizzled out, we got this:

there really is no reason anymore, therfore

unvote

Then, at a stage when Cream had two votes and a few other players finding him suspicious, Coheed decided to go along with that and suggest that he'd been thinking that way all along. Now populartajo gets two votes, and suddenly Coheed wants to lynch him too!

---

and now youa re saying that someone else is either town OR coheed's buddy, which infers you are still sure coheed is scum.

It infers that if we lynch Coheed and he turns up town, I think Mellowed is town too. Nothing else.

[iamausername]

Here's an unofficial one:

TOTALLY UNOFFICIAL Vote Count

, powered by The Count-Counter 2000

CoheedCambria09- 3 (Marmalade, iamausername, evilgorrilaz)
Cream147- 3 (alvinz95, populartajo, CoheedCambria09)
alvinz95- 2 (Gaspode, Cream147)
populartajo- 2 (Skruffs, Mellowed Man)
Mellowed Man- 1 (Elias_the_thief)

Not voting (1): Matt_S

7 to lynch.

Why no vote, Matt?

---

Also, trying to get all 12 names from memory reminds me that we need a

prod/replacement on Marmalade especially, and probably prods on Elias & Gaspode

wouldn't hurt.
We also need to just freaking lynch someone (eg. Coheed) already. 20 pages in, and I don't think anyone's even had HALF the votes required for a lynch at any one time.

For your convenience:

Good votes = Coheed
Acceptable votes = alvinz, Mellowed, Matt

Let's pick one already.

[iamausername]

If you can explain the whole Coheed argument in one post, in PERSUASION, I might consider voting Coheed. All i've gotten is that he's been unactive and has done nothing.

I did this already on the previous page. Pay attention.

Are you implying Cream isn't a good lynch?

Well, my list of "acceptable votes" was really a list of "people I would consider changing my vote to if the general consensus is that Coheed isn't a good lynch". But yes, Cream wasn't on the list, so that is certainly an implication that could be taken from my post.

Why are you asking people to vote Coheed?

Because I think we should lynch scum, and he's the most likely candidate as far as I'm concerned.

(if you were scum, this could very well be a move to lynch a townie quick)

Not a very good one.

What makes mellowed man and Matt S acceptable lynches?

I'm not going to repeat my points against Mellowed yet again. I probably should pin down my case on Matt in a concrete way, because I don't believe I've done so yet. Got a big post to write for a newb game I just replaced into, but I'll try to get onto Matt after I'm done with that.

[iamausername]

Why no vote, Matt?

Cuz I didn't get around to revoting Mellowed Man.

OK, so why not do that now?

[iamausername]

Iamausername: You slipped a vote on Coheed earlier, but I'm not sure as to why?

I've been saying for a long time that I don't think he's been contributing at all, and there's also the fact that he made this post [emphasis mine]:

Agreed about Jeep's tells, over half of them are not even finished,

though they can be helpful for finding

Cop, Doc, or

Scum there isnt much else there.

That, and the fact that Mellowed has been looking more pro-town to me lately, was my initial reason for switching my vote to Coheed.

Since then, my suspicions have been further increased by his claiming that Cream has always been the person he's been most suspicious of, when there's a lot of evidence in his earlier posts that suggests that this isn't the case, and now his "I'll go along with a populartajo lynch" post.

Basically, I think he's been going along with whatever townie wagons are popular - evilgorrilaz was the biggest wagon early in the day, when that fizzled out, we got this:

there really is no reason anymore, therfore

unvote

Then, at a stage when Cream had two votes and a few other players finding him suspicious, Coheed decided to go along with that and suggest that he'd been thinking that way all along. Now populartajo gets two votes, and suddenly Coheed wants to lynch him too!

Quoting this post because apparently no one can read further back than the most recent page!

[iamausername]

No, I'm pretty sure it would be better to lynch scum.

[iamausername]

OK,

unvote

, obviously.

I'll wait for the rest of the town to check in with any possible counterclaims before voting

Do we really want counterclaims? Isn't there a chance that we have more than one cop? And even if Coheed is lying, do we actually want our cop (if we have one at all) to out himself immediately?

but I highly prefer Mellowed Man over populartajo.

What about the 8 other players in the game besides yourself and Coheed?

You know what,

Vote: Matt_S

. This "I'm going to wait and see how everyone else votes before I commit myself to anything" attitude he's been displaying latey has pushed it over the edge.

[iamausername]

it'll sure suck if we get to LYLO before someone counterclaims.

I severely doubt we'll be in lylo on D2 though.

They're below Mellowed Man, obviously. That's why I was voting Mellowed Man before.

OK, but is anyone besides Mellowed higher than anyone else?

You mean the fact that I didn't revote because arguments involving other players could have revealed new info? Or the fact that I'm waiting for responses to someone's claim?

Yes.

[iamausername]

my proposition is that a normal townie tell me that they are normal townie, and I will investigate them and see what happens. This is all depending on us having a doc.

Coheed, you are aware that the mafia are allowed to lie in this game, right?

[iamausername]

Yay for activity

I know! I love it like this!

It's great.

HAY GUYS, THERE'S ABOUT 7 OF US HERE, LET'S ALL SPEEDLYNCH ELIAS!

[iamausername]

Ok, I'm going to bed now, but I plan on rereading in the morning with a smarter head on me hopefully!

You forgot to vote Elias.

[iamausername]

Populartajo, I find that you have a completely different type of game in this than in 556. No scumhunting, just hanging around. Scum?

If that's an ongoing game, you're not supposed to talk about it outside its own thread.

[iamausername]

Little Italy
Moderator: List Mod

Users browsing this forum: Elias_the_thief

What a wild coincidence!

[iamausername]

is there anyone that looks like they need replacing?

Marmalade hasn't posted since May 2nd.

[iamausername]

I don't know why we couldn't have done this when I was advocating it a month ago, because Mellowed Man has been acting this scummy the whole way through, but whatever.

This is a phantom L-1 vote, because we don't want someone hammering just yet; let's have a claim, please.

[iamausername]

Mellowed Man has posted plenty in other games since his last post here, he's clearly just avoiding us and hoping some of the pressure will disappear before he's forced to post again. I no longer have a problem putting him at L-1.

Unvote, Vote: Mellowed Man

[iamausername]

He seems to want to avoid voting me.

Unless you're saying he's your scum partner, how is this scummy?
Why are you voting for Elias?

[iamausername]

quicklynch

TWO MONTHS! TWENTY SEVEN PAGES!

[iamausername]

I think both claims being true is a little implausible, but that'll be a lot easier to judge after a night has passed.

Unvote, Vote: alvinz

Because this post:

OMG! Everytime we get someone to claim it ends up to be a powerrole! Now that both power roles are revealed it means that most likely we lose them tomorrow (doctor gets blocked if theres a mafia roleblocker, and cop gets killed is the normal scum play in this situation). This is depressing.... 2 months, 2 revealed power roles, and 28 pages of CRAP.

Looks like he knows for sure that Coheed & Mellowed's claims are true. Plus he was high on my suspicion list already for things mentioned earlier. [/quote]

[iamausername]

Alvinz, do you have any reason to think the mafia have a roleblocker?

No, but in every game i have been in so far, there has been a mafia blocker.

Actually, the correct answer is "I looked at the start of the thread, where Mafia Roleblocker is included in the list of roles that might appear in this game", but thanks for playing.

But still, cream did the same thing, but no one has targeted him....

What same thing has Cream done, exactly?

[iamausername]

Looks like he knows for sure that Coheed & Mellowed's claims are true.

I don't see how thats possible. As far as I know, scum don't get a list of the townie role pms.

Unvote

But they do know who is pro-town, and (hopefully) a pro-town player isn't going to claim cop unles they're actually a cop.

[iamausername]

does anybody think MM's play is how a doctor should play?

It's not how a doc

should

play, but that doesn't really bear any particular relation to whether or not it's how Mellowed

would

play as doc.

[iamausername]

But still, cream did the same thing, but no one has targeted him....

What same thing has Cream done, exactly?

I'd still like an answer to this question, btw, alvinz.

[iamausername]

unvote, vote alvinz95

Surprised I didn't literally vote him last page.

You did already literally vote him this page, however.

I might be bored enough to do a pbpa on alvinz in a bit so he can stop pretending that the case on him only constitutes things from the last page or so.

[iamausername]

Oh OK, not THIS page. Stupid thing.

[iamausername]

From the top:

Populartajo: Something fishy about his last post. Seems to be giving limited information, and trying to start a wagon on me, by asking everyone if they thought my comment was weird. (can you explain?) You usually post a lot more in depth.

Are you trying to hide something?

And is your vote on evilgorrilaz a random vote or a serious vote?

Goin' fishing!

Post #87 & #94: alvinz really wants people to post a rundown of most scummy and most townly players. #94 also has his ridiculous thing about how Elias is more likely to be scum than other lurkers, which I don't feel he ever gave a satisfactory defense for.

I've noticed is that everyone is just trying to suspect me by saying, "I have a bad feeling about him...." and uses some evidence that can't totally support a vote.

This is a nice way to try to avoid having to defend yourself against the specific evidence being brought up.

I'm totally not reading his argument with Cream again, it's just noise.

I have nothing to say on the Matt vs Scruffs argument yet. I'll wait till it plays out.

"I can't tell if I might be able to get a townie lynched out of this yet."

There isn't much of a difference between poor reasoning and lack of reasoning. It isn't scummy either.

I don't know how this didn't get more of a response at the time. Poor reasoning and lack of a reasoning isn't scummy, guys. alvinz later amends this to say:

It is only scummy when someone is trying to get on a wagon and uses poor reasoning as a reason why.

Presumably because he's going to want to use 'poor/lack of reasoning' as a reason to vote someone else later on. But we can't use it against him, because he wasn't trying to start a bandwagon, he was just making conversation!

If you can explain the whole Coheed argument in one post, in PERSUASION, I might consider voting Coheed. All i've gotten is that he's been unactive and has done nothing.

Then in his very next post:

Quote: last 2 post of Coheed.

What iamausername, and Cream said. Worthless defense, bad scum move to just say, "Hey, you guys will be surprised and will feel bad when you lynch me!" And no, lurking is not a reason to lynch someone. Trying to drag to Day 2 is scummy as that is what scum want to do. Letting people do all the work and contributing little a bit.

Seeing some incosistency here, in particular the mention of Coheed "trying to drag to Day 2" since no one had brought this up since alvinz claimed that all he saw on Coheed was "he's been unactive and has done nothing".

OMG! Everytime we get someone to claim it ends up to be a powerrole! Now that both power roles are revealed it means that most likely we lose them tomorrow (doctor gets blocked if theres a mafia roleblocker, and cop gets killed is the normal scum play in this situation). This is depressing.... 2 months, 2 revealed power roles, and 28 pages of CRAP.

Don't think I need to explain again why this post is scummy.

I would have to disagree on the case that I "know" that they are power roles, because scum would rather stay on the wagon and not believe it rather than believe that they are power roles. Isn't that just basic sense? Scum would really try to lynch a power role Day 1 rather than waste their kill at night.

alvinz, saying you believe something is not the same thing as actually believing it. And this is wrong in either case; scum would obviously believe a townie claiming doc/cop, because townies shouldn't be lying about that. And I'm sure scum would love to lynch a power role rather than "wasting" their NK on it, but un-counterclaimed power roles are not going to get lynched except in exceptional circumstances, which this is not, so trying to push those wagons by saying you don't believe the claims would be pretty futile.

---

Also, I'm going to quote these two posts every time alvinz makes a post without answering the questions contained therein:

Alvinz, since you admit that that wasn't scumhunting, why did you think it would help the town?

It would help discussion moving as I said before... Like random votes get discussion rolling but they aren't scum-hunting.

And did you not think that by that stage of the game (Post 94, most of the way through page 4, btw), there were more useful things you could be doing, like, say, actually scumhunting?

Never got an answer to this, alvinz.

(If you need some help, this is in reference to your "Elias is the scummiest lurker, because he's experienced!" craplogic.)

But still, cream did the same thing, but no one has targeted him....

What same thing has Cream done, exactly?

I'd still like an answer to this question, btw, alvinz.

[iamausername]

I'll tell you why I believed mellowed man's claim. When I claim.

I'm fascinated by what claim you could possibly make that would have any bearing on whether you believed Mellowed Man's.

Already answered. Sorry, find the answers.

Well, I JUST read through all your posts and didn't find them, so you're going to have to give me a bit more help there. If possible, quote the posts you already made answering them, because I'm pretty sure that's an outright lie, actually, at least on the second question.

[iamausername]

Welp, everybody read the first page, note the lack of Nurse in the list of roles that could appear in this game and then lets get on with lynching our first scumbag, shall we?

[iamausername]

"These are

the

roles you may see in this set-up with an explanation of each."

That, to me, implies that we won't see any other roles. If we would, it'd be worded more like "these are

some

roles you may see in this set-up".

I'm not the only one who sees it this way, right?

[iamausername]

Hey, alvinz, who are your buddies?

[iamausername]

I think that you can tell who my partner is.

So, you only have one?

[iamausername]

Hah, I guess Mellowed doesn't need replacing after all. (Had he survived, he would have done, since he's been banned from the site.)

Anyway, Coheed, investigation results plz.

Oh, and sorry for the triple post, but we either have a vig or an sk.

Wait, how do you know this?

[iamausername]

Oh, and sorry for the triple post, but we either have a vig or an sk.

Wait, how do you know this?

...Be more observant my friend!

...but it seems that he was targetted by more than one party

I take that to mean that vig or sk also targetted Mellowed. Agree?

OK, cool.

[iamausername]

Well, I came home today and logged in and saw this game was day again, but guess what, no pm from patty. So I come in here and see that Mellowed was killed I had investigated him after he cliamed doc (two power claims, suspicious) and i assumed thats why I never got a pm telling me his alignment.

Assuming you're telling the truth, make sure you ask him for your result. It will help with finding your sanity immensely.

And popular, didn't you say that you thought alvinz was town yesterday?

I would imagine his lack of result means either a) Coheed is lying, or b) Coheed was blocked last night. Second seems pretty likely though, since I think alvinz let slip that the mafia have a roleblocker.

[iamausername]

Skruffs is scum. Check this out:

This is interesting to me. I don't know if this is a tell or not, so I will broadcast this out and see what others think. The argument that bad logic just confuses the town - I'm just trying to put my finger on it.

I guess what I got out of this was the idea that, scum know who town are and are trying to get other townies to lynch town. Townies, though, do not know who anyone else is. So in effect, scum have the advantage, especially day one, of knowing which wagons are actually dangerous on scum and which ones are helpful to them. Townies have no way of knowing wether the case they have on someone is good or bad until the person is lynched and their role revealed. So on day one, especially, when one player is criticizing another for not having 'good logic' or a good case, I tend to look at the criticizer - because it means they might have ingame knowledge.

Hmm, yeah, that sounds reasonable. Hey, Skruffs seemed awfully certain that Mellowed Man was town yesterday, didn't he?

---

Let's also take a look at his interactions with alvinz.

Skruffs says in this post that alvinz is in his top 3 scummiest players (in third place, natch), but I don't think I ever saw Skruffs explain what he found scummy about alvinz. In fact, the only thing he's said regarding alvinz's alignment up to this point comes in his very first (real) post in the game:

alvin95 - your post 42 really seems to cover all the bases. You agree that EG is scummy for something, and then defend the reason he had for doing it; it sounds like you are trying to convince yourself and/or explain something to children as you explain why the wagons can be good. Wagoning is effectively a tool of the brutish against the quiet.
-56 - this seems like less of a safety post. My guess is you are town.

Interesting. Skruffs then decides that "either Coheed or popular is the vote for the day", despite neither of these players appearing in that top three just now. Someone calls him out on this, naturally, and he explains:

I was pretty sure that my top three were cream, matt, and alvins, but

alvins is the only one that more than one player is interested in

,a dn the day is going on long enough that players are startign to lose interest. Me sayign tha tPop. or CC had to be lynched today and now was to restart the game, to get rid of applayer that is negatively contributing (IE trying to get the town to carry them) and get hte game on.

So, why was popular/Coheed the vote for the day and not alvinz, again?

I'm willing to vote Alvinz just for somehow thinking the mafia would have a roleblocker.

And yet no vote. That won't fly.

Vote: Skruffs

.

[iamausername]

YOU CANT MAKE A LYNCH OFF OF A CONNECTION CASE ALONE

I pretty much disagree with this entirely. However, I don't think the alvinz/Elias connection is nearly as strong as the alvinz/Skruffs connection, and I think Skruffs also looks scummier independently.

I'm slightly confused by the fact that my last post appears to have been ignored entirely by everyone.

[iamausername]

I will have a detailed post later today explaining exactly why this connection case is retarded and

probably lead by scum tajo.

Its called buddying up, and

retarded townies such as yourself

are why it works.

Which is it, Elias?

[iamausername]

Its the same thing as waving around the fact that you weren't on a townie lynch, and therefore must be town.

Didn't you do this repeatedly in Newbie #579?

I completely missed Iamausername's attack against me because it was on a previous page; thank you for bringing it to my attention though, I will read and respond to it.

Will you really?

[iamausername]

I pointed out that Alvinz had information about the mafia having a roleblocker, which led to him being lynched.

alvinz was lynched because he claimed a role that was guaranteed not in the game. The roleblocker thing might have had a slight indirect influence on the buildup to that, but I'd hardly say it was a major factor. And if alvinz had been paying attention, he had a perfectly good excuse for thinking there was a mafia roleblocker - it's in the possible roles listed at the start of the thread. If he could come up with that, you've got some good distancing down, and neither of you come out of it badly. If he couldn't, you're probably better off bussing him.

I didn't get a *chance* to vote alvinz.

Yes, you did. When you posted "I am willing to vote alvinz just for somehow thinking the mafia would have a roleblocker", THAT WAS A CHANCE TO VOTE.

For example:
When you voted alvinz, you said that it was due to him 'knowing' that the two claims are probably true - which doesn't really make sense.

Why not? alvinz was scum -> he knew Mellowed Man and (I'm assuming) Coheed are town -> townies don't lie about having power roles (unless they're crazy trolls like Mellowed, evidently) -> alvinz knew the claims were (almost certainly) true.

Unless you also 'knew' that the claims were true

What difference would that make?

you also deliberately suggested that it was unlikely both claims were true, but that a night passing would reveal the truth.

Yes, I found it unlikely that the first two players we ran up to a claim would both have power roles. However, alvinz seeming to know too much superceded that doubt, so I voted him. As it turned out, I was right on both counts. Thanks, Mellowed Man!

Also, I didn't say a night passing would reveal the truth, I said it would be easier to discern the truth after a night had passed. There's a difference.

You also said that the points against alvinz had already been said, but the only points I found were from nearly a month earlier, when you asked Alvinz why he thought what he was doing was helpful for town, sinec it wasn't scum hunting. You said that his OMGUS playstyuling meant he was either scum trying to intimidate town or he was just hot headed town, which isn't very persuasive.

Scummy behaviour doesn't disappear just because time passes. I had residual suspicion of alvinz based on his "of all the lurkers, Elias is most likely scum" nonsense from way early on. I didn't think that was enough to go on, UNTIL he seemed to know that Mellowed/Coheed were town, which was probably enough basis for a vote on it's own, but certainly enough given that alvinz had been sketchy the whole day through, which is why I mentioned the lesser stuff at all.

Alvinz called you out as bussing him, and sliding an untraceable vote onto him to make yourself look townish sounds exactly like that.

What makes my vote 'untraceable'?

However, I am using alvinz accusation s of you as bussing him as a correlary point, not a prime one. I try not to use caught scum's confessions as meat for attacking people with.

You're still using it at all.

Matt_S is still high on my list for trying to get MM lynched because he couldn't be 'proved' town.

I agree that Matt is pretty scummy, btw.

[iamausername]

Can we get prods on evilgorrilaz and Cream? No posts in almost a week now.

[iamausername]

Populartajo basically just claimed mafia, in other news.....

ORLY?

Also, I meant to ask earlier, Skruffs; when you placed alvinz as top three scummiest, what was your reasoning for doing so? Why did you find him suspicious at that time?

[iamausername]

Cream was another one I didn't like...I think i've forgotten why.

vote Cream

This is a good case.

[iamausername]

You all wake up to a bright and sunny day 2, to find that Mellowed Man has been murdered; even as murder victims go, he doesn't look good. He has a bullet lodged in his brain and appears to have been stabbed multiple times. It's not clear which of these killed him first, but

it seems that he was targetted by more than one party

... You all search his home, expecting to find medical instruments and/or drugs (strictly medicinal of course...), but none of these things materialise. Mellowed Man wasn't a doctor, just a normal citizen of the town.

Mellowed Man - Vanilla Townie - killed night 1

It is day 2. With 10 alive, it's 6 to lynch!

This has been discussed quite a lot since D2 started, Xtoxm.

---

Skruffs; when you placed alvinz as top three scummiest, what was your reasoning for doing so? Why did you find him suspicious at that time?

[iamausername]

Skruffs; when you placed alvinz as top three scummiest, what was your reasoning for doing so? Why did you find him suspicious at that time?

[/quote]

[iamausername]

How is it that Skruffs has not only not been lynched yet, but doesn't even have any votes besides mine? I don't understand.

[iamausername]

How is it that Skruffs has not only not been lynched yet, but doesn't even have any votes besides mine? I don't understand.

Cause I dislike the tactic of "Why hasnt <insertname> been lynched yet?"

That really doesn't answer the question.

[iamausername]

How is it that Skruffs has not only not been lynched yet, but doesn't even have any votes besides mine? I don't understand.

Why should we be voting him?

See this post, and Skruffs' response to it here.

If you need further elaboration, please ask, but I honestly don't know why you would.

[iamausername]

Scum who bus their buddies make these kind of games so much easier.

Tell us how you know elias is scum, popular. ^.^

Apparently not, Alabaska.

[iamausername]

I need to look back and see why I was suspicious of Alvinz

Take your time.

[iamausername]

What does everyone else think?

I think we should lynch Skruffs.

[iamausername]

Why arent you considering more than one person? You seem to be very tunnelvisioned

I'd be OK with a Matt lynch too, but I'm much more certain that Skruffs is scum. Elias would be a better choice than tajo. Can't see a decent case on anyone besides these four.

[iamausername]

Why no vote, Matt?

Cuz I didn't get around to revoting Mellowed Man.

OK, so why not do that now?

Tides are turning. I'd probably move it again soon.

For whoever it was that asked, this exchange sums up my major point of contention when it comes to Matt; in that happy period of D1 when things were actually happening, he did a lot of this kind of thing, saying "I'll just wait and see what everyone else does before I commit to a position". Smacks of opportunism.

[iamausername]

Who do you think we should lynch today, Coheed?

[iamausername]

In the posts I quoted you also stated that your vote would probably end up on someone other than Mellowed Man.

[iamausername]

Porochaz replaces Evilgorrilaz

Xtoxm replaces Gaspode


P.S. This makes Xtoxm a terrible lynch. There's no way Gaspode was alvinz's buddy.

[iamausername]

I need to look back and see why I was suspicious of Alvinz

Take your time.

Really, as much as you need.

So, wasn't Elias supposed to have access at weekends?

[iamausername]

Screw it, let's just do this.

Unvote, Vote: Elias

.

[iamausername]

Damn. Good luck, town!

[iamausername]

OMG FINALLY