Open 62 - Strawberry Mafia - Game Over! before 568

[JamesThePhox]

Hey! Looks like I've got a lot to look over.

I'll post my responses by tomorrow afternoon. Bear with me.

Hey, Xtoxm.

[JamesThePhox]

Hang on. Still putting some notes down for this game.

Unvote

[JamesThePhox]

Sorry about my inactivity, guys. The past couple weeks have been a bit busy for me. I'll see if I can get my thoughts in by this weekend.

[JamesThePhox]

I'm with Jester on this one. I've been incredibly busy this past week and I expect this busyness to not end.

I might need to consider a replacement as well.

[JamesThePhox]

Alrighty, time for me to actually respond (it took me almost 2 weeks to catch up to 11 pages, but I've done it):

Hey! Looks like I've got a lot to look over.

I'll post my responses by tomorrow afternoon. Bear with me.

Looks like I lied right here. Sorry guys!

First off, this seems to be the most important for me to respond to

:

jamesthephox, hasn't really done anything, and if he's been busy, that's fine. I wish he would be more active, because I was disappointed to have Peers disappear while waiting for answers from him, and I don't want to just forget about him for D1 because of a replacement. So James, if you really need to replace, please do so now so that we can keep the game moving (this goes for Jester as well, but I think he's already made that decision). If you can contribute, great.
I think the case for Peers was clear, and since he never responded to my questions, I don't think I have anything new to add to it, but I'll go over it again if necessary.

So, I want to make a disclaimer that I'll try to respond from what I believe Peer's point-of-view was, then make my own judgment (just to clear up a few things):

The main question that I see you, neko, asking Peers is this:

Neko and Xtomx are starting to feel more and more like scumbuddies to me...

Peers on the other hand, doesn't have any votes on him, whereas I think he merits some. He's drawing a connection between myself and xtoxm without backing it up at all, and voting for xtoxm without any sort of reasoning. I almost want to switch my vote to him, but xtoxm's play still bothers me. After doing a quick meta on him, I see that he doesn't always make such short, contentless posts. I'm going to keep my vote where it's at for the time being.

The only connection that I can make between you and Xtoxm is here:

And with Neko it seems like he's just throwing suspicion back, Neko is doing the most work to move town forward and I think he is pro-town, not scum trying to lead the town.

This is after you voted for Xtoxm with the reason that his posts don't lead towards scum-hunting (at that point). Peers might have seen this as Neko (assuming mafia partner with Xtoxm) distancing himself from Xtoxm, while Xtoxm, who doesn't really take Neko's vote into consideration, instead, uses that post as an opportunity to label Neko as pro town. And posts prior that, there was some back and forth commentary between the two of them, which potentially could link them together. Whether this was a legitimate case that could've been made on page 6, I don't know. But from my point of view, Neko seems to be focusing on Xtoxm way too much for this to be considered "distancing", at this stage in the day.

My view on Neko falls into place with Jester's, in that, he seems pro-town, just a bit overzealous. But I do see a legitimate scum hunt attempt when he made the Scigatt wagon, as well as his other posts concerning Xtoxm's lack of contribution. Neko wants more discussion, more people talking, which leads to finding tells, potentially getting mafia to slip up. This is a pro-town vibe for me.

As for Peers' "gut vote" on Xtoxm, I can't really comment on that, except that, although he feels that Neko and Xtoxm might be partners, Peers might've considered Xtoxm more scummy in his behavior than Neko based on Xtoxm's contribution, which was discussed by a number of people mainly Neko, or based on his own personal view (which I cannot really take a guess at).

From my perspective, I feel that his vote on Xtoxm wasn't a bad choice. Xtoxm's contribution was on my mind for most of my first read-through and a vote to add pressure, get Xtoxm talking (specifically scum hunting), was definitely justifiable.

Other than that, I hope I cleared a few questions up that you wanted answered. If you have any other questions, I'll try to answer them to the best of my ability (I'm afraid I don't have much insight in Peers' thinking ).

As for the current topic - Yvonne

:

I completely agree with Dizzy, in that, rather than replacing Yvonne, a lynch is probably better.

I'll try to reply to Yvonne's question simultaneously with my opinion of Yvonne:

Can any of you show me how ThAdmiral looks town to you? If you cannot, then is my vote to lynch him today not justified? Also, a question to those of you who are voting me and/or think I'm scum: What do you think I'm currently trying to accomplish as scum?

First off, your vote for ThAdmiral has so far only been about his bandwagon on Scigatt early on in the game and his even earlier "bandwagon" on Near (which was still in the random voting stage, mind you). The rest of your posts have been only focused about ThAdmiral (and now recently the attack on you), which is fine, however you don't contribute any opinions or suspicions about others. Although you may feel that this might weaken your attack on ThAdmiral based on your firm beliefs that he is, in fact, mafia, giving your opinions of others helps give your opinions much more credibility, tells the town that you are not ignoring the rest of them, that you are willing to listen to (and consider) other's opinions, and that, as a pro-town player, you are willing to put some pressure on other suspected townies (mind you, there are three mafia in this game, if only one mafia was left, your attempts at a ThAdmiral lynch would be much more credible). Yet, you've singled out ThAdmiral with only one piece of evidence, which doesn't help.

If you are pro-town and realize that the rest of the town is not agreeing with your case against another player, it would be much more helpful to start using your posts towards scum hunting the rest of the town.

If your lack of posts in this game was because you were discouraged that the rest of the town did not agree with you, then find other mafia, and come back to the case later when more evidence can be found against your first suspect.

Your lack of posts in this game, as well as your increased posts in your other games, as Marmalade has stated, is not very pro-town. If you were mafia, your lack of posts could be an attempt to keep to yourself and not, potentially, lead to any connections with your other mafia partners, as Cephrir stated, as well as, an attempt to stay under the radar.

As for your first question, I don't lean in one way or the other towards ThAdmiral. Some of his posts were a bit off, such as his post about being afraid being the leader in lynch votes. However, he has at least shown his opinions on certain subjects such as: Neko's role as "leading the town", questioning of Xtoxm's quick vote switch to Malthusis (I found this very important), and responded to Neko's question:

Yvonne, thAdmiral, do you have opinions on anyone besides each other?

This question was also addressed to you, but you

completely ignored it

. I found this most problematic and one of the main reasons why I believe your suspicion of ThAdmiral is backed up by evidence that can easily be overruled by evidence of ThAdmiral's pro-town actions.

I am not completely convinced that you should be lynched right away, but everything above mentioned is enough to warrant a

HoS: Yvonne

. As of now, I feel that your case on ThAdmiral's vote switching is something to take into consideration, as well as some strange posts here and there, but your case has been weighed evenly with all the pro-town actions that ThAdmiral has done during the day, which is why I read neutral on him, thus far. Whereas, your lack of contribution and avoidance to the game has made you the top suspect on my list.

Snix's Link between Neko, Yvonne, and Scigatt

Although the link is reasonable, I don't believe that Neko would ask for a replacement just to keep his "mafia partner" from a lynch, especially since in the past, we've seen Neko pressure the rest of the town into discussion much more than a mafia would. I feel that Neko's reasons for wanting a replacement are justified and fall in line with his play style.

The link between Yvonne and Scigatt (assuming Yvonne was mafia) is a bit more justifiable. However, I believe Scigatt is just a newbie, like me, who voted ThAdmiral based on the "Third to Bandwagon is scum" principle. And Scigatt's "me too" post seems to fall in line with the first part of my reasoning why I don't follow your link.

Opinions of other players

:

ThAdmiral, Yvonne, Neko and Scigatt have already been mentioned

.

Jester: I read as pro-town, since most of his posts are very insightful and very logical. His posts are informative and I will miss his input, if/when he decides to request a replacement.

Marmalade: Leaning to pro-town as well. I especially like his meta of Cephrir and Yvonne, although he found they we inconclusive, it shows that he's actually trying to get reads on people.

Cephrir: No read on him so far. I like his questioning of Neko's "leading the town" posts as well as his reponse to Xtoxm's quick vote to Malthusis. I found his little back and forth talk with Xtoxm strange, but nothing "telling". Although he's put some pressure on people, I didn't see too much scum hunting except for the first bandwagon. Waiting to see what he does.

Near: On my suspect list. His play style is very similar to the other game I'm playing with him. I don't have much of a tell on him, but I don't like his lack on contribution to the game. I want to see him state some suspicions (or opinions) of others before I get a read on him. Found the L-2 on Scigatt a bit interesting.

Xtoxm: On my suspect list as well. His quick switch to Malthusis then switch to Yvonne was a bit scummy to me, especially at this stage in the day. I don't mind the call for a deadline, but he's not doing much to help scum hunting, mostly throwing votes around. The only positive tell I have from him is his stance against cop fishing.

Snix: I found his attack on Cephrir strange and without a good reason. However, I like his questioning of the bandwagon (although I supported the reason to bandwagon, I believe questioning it is pro town as well). Most of his posts are informative as well, and does seem to be genuinely looking for scum. Tilting to pro-town for me.

DizzyIzzy: Not much to go off of. I agree with most of what she says, however. More posts are necessary before I get a read on her.

End of replies

Whew. I hope that post wasn't too long. The next ones will be shorter, I hope. I'm relieved that I was able to catch up.

Upon seeing the votes, another vote for Yvonne will put her at L-2.

Vote: Yvonne

. Pressure is necessary.

[JamesThePhox]

[...] and there is also the extenuating circumstance of it being Jamesthephox's first post - hence the length

Well. My first contributive post.

I just re-read ThAdmiral's posts. I think I see a little bit of what Yvonne is seeing. Or actually, judging from what she's posted, I think I see something entirely different. Her case is... lacking, after all. ThAd voted for Near in the name of self-preservation, which I don't like. Self-preservation is not that important. And there's also his most recent post, which is odd, as he finds long posts followed by a vote suspicious (wtf?). But it's not just that. I get a scummy gut feeling from him, I guess. And I don't really have any other candidates who might be scum...

Well, I actually see a reason why "long posts, followed by a vote" might be scummy. There have been many cases I've seen on MS where a very vocal, experienced scum will make long posts filled with crap-logic which he uses to justify a vote on another player. The tactic is mainly used to overwhelm the newer players and discourage the lazy ones, so they end up trusting the "very vocal, logical player" and just look at the vote at the end that is in

bold

.

However, I do agree with the first part of your suspicion towards ThAdmiral. The vote on Near for self-preservation was odd to me (stated in my other post). I feel that in the first day, pro-town players should be less worried about themselves and should be more worried about finding scum. If a suspected pro-town player is killed, it actually helps town find mafia than if a suspected pro-town player lives to another day.

[JamesThePhox]

But there are also a lot of situations in which a protown player does exactly the same thing, only without the craplogic. It's called a case. Sometimes that's what you have to do to get someone lynched when you're certain.

Indeed, you are correct. I was just pointing out a different way in which the same situation could be interpreted.

[JamesThePhox]

Let's wait for the replacement, since it would be pretty sad if the replacement came in only to realize that s/he has been lynched.

Also, Yvonne's last post was a bit interesting, which is why I want to see what her replacement has to say.

[JamesThePhox]

Checking in guys. Busy until the end of this week. I'll get my thoughts in by this weekend.

[JamesThePhox]

I agree with neko. Yvonne was attacking ThAdmiral way too much on Day One. As a cop, it's better to stay low, until you can find something about the guilty suspect that is scummy and grow off of that. Yvonne was attacking ThAdmiral from the get-go (during the random voting stages). Then she gets angry at all the town because we suspect that the way she acted was suspicious, which it was. Either way, if we voted Yvonne or ThAdmiral, town would've lost a cop and gotten rid of a mafia. Cop shouldn't be making a show of themselves, especially when they're the only power role in the game.

Now we're in a mountainous-type setup. With 2 mafia and 8 town. The only real thing that's different is Day One.

Looking back, I believe that some (or all) the mafia jumped on the Yvonne wagon, since townies were getting suspicious of her and she was attacking their fellow scumbuddy ThAdmiral. There were many votes on Yvonne that were easily overlooked and it would've been easy, as mafia, to jump on the Yvonne wagon without looking too suspicious.

I jumped on the Yvonne wagon, but I had a good reason for it.

For that

Vote: Snix

[JamesThePhox]

Dizzy can also be a legitimate candidate for leading the lynch on Yvonne as well.

I would not mind a Dizzy lynch as well.

[JamesThePhox]

Well. I would be fine with a trade off between one scum and a cop, if I was confident that the town can pick off the last two scum in successful lynches. But seeing as how town almost lynched the cop day 1, I would much rather the cop, like neko said, had stayed hidden until she got a second guilty investigation.

Just my opinion. (I include myself as part of the "town that almost lynched the cop")

Like I said, I wouldn't mind a Dizzy lynch, but Xtoxm brings up a good point, since I also believe in the possibility of Dizzy being a misguided town who made a wrong judgment on Yvonne. Snix seems like a better lynch IMO. Snix and I handled the Yvonne case in roughly the same way, giving arguments on why we think she was mafia and also supporting a Yvonne LYNCH rather than a replacement, making us both look really bad. So my vote may make me look like a hypocrite, but I believe Snix is scum.

[JamesThePhox]

Cephrir: Yes, Snix could have make the same case as townie, as I had done. However, I believe our motives were different, in a way. Snix tried to make connections between others and Yvonne, and he lashed out at others that voted for ThAdmiral. It seemed to me that Snix was trying to form a large case against Yvonne and lead into tying her with other people. This may be scumhunting, but now that ThAdmiral is revealed as scum, I wonder what Snix's real motives were. And I feel that Snix's posts against Yvonne and against those voting for ThAdmiral does implicate him as scum.

My posts on the otherhand were directly answering Yvonne's questions. I never considered ThAdmiral pro-town, nor stood up for him (this could be WIFOM, but this is from my POV).

I also believe that anyone that called for a Yvonne lynch rather than a Yvonne replacement are scummy. That includes myself, Dizzy, and Snix. Thus my vote on Snix and my consideration of Dizzy as a possible suspect.

[JamesThePhox]

I concur with whichever statement is correct.

[JamesThePhox]

James, that's not entirely useful.

Nothing in Xtoxm's post is relevent to my post.

To me, this says that Dizzy has no intentions of helping the town today.

Maybe she's given up all hope of helping town, since she thinks she's going to be lynched anyways.
Which implicates her even more, since a townie would try their best to help town before his/her demise.

Dizzy, where to your suspicions lie? I know you voted Cephrir, but could you elaborate with more than just one word adjectives?

[JamesThePhox]

@Dizzy: It's true that the main focus was on Yvonne/ThAdmiral. But also consider some of the things that went on during that back and forth post battle? Earlier in the game there was the Scigatt wagon that was driven early on by neko, which was then disbanded because of a semi-consensus that Scigatt wasn't too suspicious. And at this point, Day 2, I don't feel Scigatt is scum because of that wagon and also Scigatt's overall suspiciousness and latter vote against ThAdmiral.

Next there was the issue with Near and his strange line of posting and his placing Scigatt at L-2, along with suspicions against Xtoxm's posting (or lack thereof) and neko's "leading the town" deal, which was started by Cephrir.

I know the focus on Day 1 WAS Yvonne-Ecto/ThAdmiral, but there is plenty of information that can be gathered from Day 1. So it would be good to get an idea of your thoughts on everyone else from Day 1, if town ends up lynching you and if you turn out to be town.

If you are town, I understand how frustrating it is to be on everyone's suspect list and can't really prove your innocence. And anger and taking it out on the town by being unhelpful (or just verbally abusive) does tend to be the second thing a townie would do in a situation like this. But again it is helpful for town to lynch a highly suspected townie, than lynch someone else with that suspicion in everyone's mind. If you're town, then that just gives the town more information to find scum, which is sort of like a sacrifice for the greater scum-lynching good. And if you're mafia, then yay for town, suck for you.

[JamesThePhox]

I also notice the Izzy wagon is going far more slowly than it should based on earlier actions.

Also we have two replacements who have yet to speak, so the wagon, if it does move, won't be moving until town gets the opinions of these two replacements.

[JamesThePhox]

@Dizzy: It's true that the main focus was on Yvonne/ThAdmiral. But also consider some of the things that went on during that back and forth post battle? Earlier in the game there was the Scigatt wagon that was driven early on by neko, which was then disbanded because of a semi-consensus that Scigatt wasn't too suspicious. And at this point, Day 2, I don't feel Scigatt is scum because of that wagon and also Scigatt's overall suspiciousness and latter vote against ThAdmiral.

Next there was the issue with Near and his strange line of posting and his placing Scigatt at L-2, along with suspicions against Xtoxm's posting (or lack thereof) and neko's "leading the town" deal, which was started by Cephrir.

I know the focus on Day 1 WAS Yvonne-Ecto/ThAdmiral, but there is plenty of information that can be gathered from Day 1. So it would be good to get an idea of your thoughts on everyone else from Day 1, if town ends up lynching you and if you turn out to be town.

If you are town, I understand how frustrating it is to be on everyone's suspect list and can't really prove your innocence. And anger and taking it out on the town by being unhelpful (or just verbally abusive) does tend to be the second thing a townie would do in a situation like this. But again it is helpful for town to lynch a highly suspected townie, than lynch someone else with that suspicion in everyone's mind. If you're town, then that just gives the town more information to find scum, which is sort of like a sacrifice for the greater scum-lynching good. And if you're mafia, then yay for town, suck for you.

You're missing the point.

Pretty sure I'm not.

SL made quite a good argument, looking at your opportunistic voting stance during day 1 and sudden shift in attacks, while neko is right about the lack of scum-hunting.

I'm convinced.

Unvote, Vote: Dizzy

[JamesThePhox]

BTW, you're at L-1 now. Please use your posts wisely.

[JamesThePhox]

EBWOP: L-2, my bad.

[JamesThePhox]

Waiting on perfect's input.

Just our luck to get lurker to replace a lurker.

[JamesThePhox]

Mod, can we get a vote count?

And I would like to address that there shouldn't be any hammering until perfect has come back and provides input that gives to further discussion.

[JamesThePhox]

Actually Dizzy, it obviously has a lot of bearing because it's kinda your entre case.

It isn't though. I'm sure you'd love to be able to play it that way.

We'd love to hear you case, then(or at least the answer to Cephir's 539, if he responded to you entire case).

One more thing: Stop with the victim complex(that's what it is). Cephir is not unduly making a case for you. Rather, he was merely saying what most of us were thinking. However you think you became the prime lynch target, IT'S YOUR OWN DAMN FAULT. Through the posts you made, you gave us an impression of nearly unbelievable scumminess. You know, if you wish, come back to this game in a couple of weeks(maybe when you become an IC) and look over your posts. If you can tell yourself honestly that you didn't look scummy, then I'm sorry. So, in summary, Lynch you wrongly, shame on us. Lynch you wrongly after you act in a way that would have you accused of being a blatant jester in a closed setup, shame on you.

This post sounds a lot like Scigatt knows Izzy is town.

Too bad the cop is dead.

[JamesThePhox]

Last post was supposed to have an eye-roll smiley. I know SL is saying that Scigatt's last post didn't say anything about town lynching CORRECTLY and that's interesting.

[JamesThePhox]

This twilight talk makes me uneasy and gives me nausea.

[JamesThePhox]

The twilight makes me nauseous because I just want to know the role of the person we lynched. The anticipation is really bugging me.

[JamesThePhox]

MOD: WILL BE V/LA FOR TWO WEEKS. REQUESTING REPLACEMENT. SORRY FOR THE INCONVENIENCE.