Open 62 - Strawberry Mafia - Game Over! before 568

[Cephrir]

Vote: malthusis

for being 6 below me on the player list. Now that's a scumtell.

[Cephrir]

Snix, are

you

serious with

that

?

[Cephrir]

I don't see much worth commenting on at the moment, the current topic of conversation has been blown out of proportion... it doesn't really matter that much.

[Cephrir]

I have a proposal. As an alternative to the Near-wagon, why don't we run up a scigatt-wagon? I think it could be quite informative.

Any takers?

Sure. Pressuring is always a good way to get some conversation going.

Vote: scigatt

[Cephrir]

Yeah, I think it's pretty obvious to me what neko's getting at here, and I could be wrong, but a less experienced player (like scigatt) wouldn't neccessarily.

AKA: I agree with neko.

[Cephrir]

That scumtell really doesn't apply anymore, mostly because everyone knows it exists.

Interesting reaction, though. Doesn't seem much like scum to me.

Unvote

[Cephrir]

Cephrir joined to get information as well. He seems like he's pro-town at the moment. Unless things change drastically, I'd say he's not going to be today's lynch. ThAdmiral seemed to have joined to get info as well, so I'm a bit hesitant to say he's leaning more scum than town. We just can't know yet.

"He's not going to be today's lynch" = you sort of seem like you're leading the town here. You're not the sole controller of the lynch, y'know. What also bothers me is your inconsistant treatment of certain reactions. You say ThAdmiral and I both joined the wagon for info, yet you're suspicious of him for not saying much when I really haven't either. Also, you're somewhat attacking ThAdmiral for lack of content, whereas here:

Malthusis hasn't really given us anything at all. It would be wonderful to hear from him very soon.

malthusis gets no suspicion for exactly the same thing? scigatt also made quite a few posts, and all you say about him is

Nothing of any real substance, yet he'd like contribution from others

So... what's up with that?

[Cephrir]

Xtoxm, 1-liners are not contribution.

[Cephrir]

You know what I mean.

[Cephrir]

Yeah, but if you

always

post one-liners, you're probably not scumhunting.

[Cephrir]

You can go ahead and think that then.

[Cephrir]

Yeah, but if you

always

post one-liners, you're probably not scumhunting.

[Cephrir]

This argument is a waste of time.

[Cephrir]

Vote: Cephrir

Cephrir has, to me, done some very suspicious things. Most of his posts just seem very aggressive. I understand that aggression can help at times but he seems like he is just picking to pick.

Some games, I just play aggressively to try out something a bit different. Or sometimes I just make aggressive and out of character posts to get reactions. I find it's rather effective in some situations, but what really matters here is that you're not going to have much luck calling people scum based on playstyle.

He seems to have hitched himself early on to the Scigatt bandwagon and followed Neko's lead, not contributing much to the inquisition except making an QFT post and leaving it at that.

I love pressuring people to get reactions. It works really well. And by the way, agreeing with people (especially when they're so right it hurts) is not a scumtell. Especially if that player isn't dead and therefore more than likely isn't scum. You can't really criticize connections until/unless you know an alignment involved.

And the wagon had run it's course he quickly pulled a 180 and started claiming that Neko seemed to be trying to lead the town. That also seemed to be the most content filled post he's had so far.

I never pulled a 180. The two stances, that scigatt could use some pressure and that neko's tone was that of someone trying to lead the town, are not contradictory or even related. Just because I agreed with neko earlier doesn't mean I have to continue to do so for the rest of the game. If someone you think is town does something a bit suspicious, are you going to not call them out on it because you think they're town? Not so much. That said, I really do think neko is town, and the part of his post I criticized there was the only part that wasn't obviously really protown.
And the fact that that's my most contributive post doesn't matter. It's page 4, calm down.

After that he carried on a pointless argument for much of page 4.

Why, Cephrir, carry on an argument you knew was pointless?

Why not? Are you saying my carrying on an argument that was of little (but not no) significance is indicative of alignment? That's what it seems like, given that you start your post with a vote and follow with a list of reasons why you voted that way. And it wasn't entirely pointless, anyway. You'll notice I stopped arguing when I determined that it was disintegrating into a simple difference of opinion.

[Cephrir]

Way to not acknowledge that I just responded to your case, Snix...

[Cephrir]

I love pressuring people to get reactions. It works really well. And by the way, agreeing with people (especially when they're so right it hurts) is not a scumtell. Especially if that player isn't dead and therefore more than likely isn't scum. You can't really criticize connections until/unless you know an alignment involved.

I'm not trying to connect you to Neko. Far from it; because Neko, ATM, seems very pro-town. What I was trying to do was point out the fact that you just seemed to have found an easy ride to pro-towndom and hoped on. That's all.

Um... no? Just because I agree with him once doesn't mean I plan to ride on his coattails all game...

I never pulled a 180. The two stances, that scigatt could use some pressure and that neko's tone was that of someone trying to lead the town, are not contradictory or even related. Just because I agreed with neko earlier doesn't mean I have to continue to do so for the rest of the game. If someone you think is town does something a bit suspicious, are you going to not call them out on it because you think they're town? Not so much.

It's not the stances you took it's that fact that it was really obvious he was taking us by the hand and dragging us along before the wagon had ended and yet you jumped on without saying anything about it. When finally the wagon ends you seem to have a sudden revelation.

I didn't have a problem with it, because he was right, pressure is good. I didn't see it as him leading the town at that point, I saw exactly what he was talking about and thought it was a pretty good idea. You are really making something out of nothing here.

And the fact that that's my most contributive post doesn't matter. It's page 4, calm down.

But you criticize others for it.

I never critisized Xtoxm, neko did. My argument with him was basically over what "contribution" means.

Why not? Are you saying my carrying on an argument that was of little (but not no) significance is indicative of alignment? That's what it seems like, given that you start your post with a vote and follow with a list of reasons why you voted that way. And it wasn't entirely pointless, anyway. You'll notice I stopped arguing when I determined that it was disintegrating into a simple difference of opinion.

Because it was pointless that's why not. No, I'm saying it helped no one and did nothing.

[/quote]
What's your point? It's not like scum are more likely to carry on pointless argueements.

You're digging pretty hard where there's nothing to dig up, Snix. Look at your response to me. Do any of those points even really indicate scuminess, nevermind the fact that they're wrong? Didn't think so.

[Cephrir]

Cephrir, you have an excellent way of cutting through the BS, but you also come off a little... dunno... arrogant? I can see why people are suspicious of you.

Yeah, I've been playing like that lately. I dunno why.

[Cephrir]

I don't like his analysis either.

I think he is a good lynch for today.

unvote vote malthusis

.

"I don't like his analysis, he's the lynch today"-- that's a bit sudden.

[Cephrir]

I think he's scum cos of the post specified.

There nothing more to say.

There has to be more to say. Why do you find it scummy? If it's gut, then it's gut, but at least tell us that.

[Cephrir]

Gut = Random.

No. No, it really isn't. Some players play almost entirely based on gut, and some of those players are very good.

@Jester: i think you're overreacting to Near a little bit. Sarcasm as a cover-up for scummy behavior? That's one of the strangest attacks I've heard recently.

[Cephrir]

I conceded that the way I made the proposal could *sound* ridiculous. You judge for yourself. I guess there are two options: 1) I am scum and I am trying to explicitly get a bandwagon going on scigatt or 2) I am townie and I am trying to apply pressure to someone I find semi-scummy.

You forgot 3) You are scum trying to apply pressure to someone hoping they slip up. Not that I subscribe to that opinion, but scum don't always act like scum. That's the idea, at least.

[Cephrir]

Neko: If I had to pick someone right now, it would be Xtoxm. I really don't find him quite voteworthy, but he definitely is moreso than anyone else. The cases on Near and ThAdmiral are seriously lacking. As in nonexistant.

[Cephrir]

Snix, I think you still have a vote on me. Any reasons?

[Cephrir]

However, I am curious about the fact Cephrir ignores what has been happening recently (e.g. regarding Yvonne) and has merely questioned Snix's vote in his most recent post.

Everything to say on the matter has been said. I don't think it's a tell.

I've been posting few and short posts in this game, and I'm not sure why. I apologize, it'll probably pick up at some point.

[Cephrir]

Lurky =/= suspicious.

[Cephrir]

It's just as likely that a given lurker is a bored townie.

[Cephrir]

What do you think I'm currently trying to accomplish as scum?

Getting away with not helping? Having no connection to your scumbuddies because you never mention anyone? Seriously, what is with the intentional tunnel vision. Even if you don't think anyone else is scum, could you at least

say

that and/or say who you think is protown? Or do

something

?

[Cephrir]

I normally don't like long posts followed by a vote, as this is often a ploy used by mafia to conceal a simple bandwagon hop

Huh? Since when? I have never heard of this, and I entirely disagree. Long posts full of reasoning are often a protown thing to do, with lots of analysis so that everyone can follow you line of reasoning to a vote.

His post also got me thinking - do you reckon it would be a good idea if we were all to do a list of the players and our thoughts on them?
I know this is sometimes frowned upon as mafia can use it as a guide on who to kill (i.e. the person most people think is pro-town), but I think it would help the game, and discussion, get moving without the need of a deadline to compel us.

It can help... but are we really dragging

that

badly? Activity seems to me to be picking up.

I don't think I've mentioned much about the Yvonne thing-- there are definitely two reasonable sides to it. Scum might want to bus a useless scumbuddy, but they might also prefer a replacement as well, so that they have a more useful scumbuddy. I don't think anyone should be jumping too far to conclusions based just on this.

I just re-read ThAdmiral's posts. I think I see a little bit of what Yvonne is seeing. Or actually, judging from what she's posted, I think I see something entirely different. Her case is... lacking, after all. ThAd voted for Near in the name of self-preservation, which I don't like. Self-preservation is not that important. And there's also his most recent post, which is odd, as he finds long posts followed by a vote suspicious (wtf?). But it's not just that. I get a scummy gut feeling from him, I guess. And I don't really have any other candidates who might be scum...

Vote: ThAdmiral

[Cephrir]

But there are also a lot of situations in which a protown player does exactly the same thing, only without the craplogic. It's called a case. Sometimes that's what you have to do to get someone lynched when you're certain.

[Cephrir]

Yeah, but

I normally don't like long posts followed by a vote

is a bit of a broad statement.

[Cephrir]

To expand on my original statement - I normally don't like long posts (generally listing all the alive players and the way the poster feels about them) which rehash things that have already been said by other players and then finish with the vote going on the person who already has the most.

You should have said that, then...

Jester: V/LA happens. It's OK.

[Cephrir]

FoS: Near

Weeeeeeiiiiird post. Admitting you have no reasons kinda makes the pressure part irrelevant. Not that I disagree with the vote itself, but...wtf? Might be a vote if I wasn't more suspicious of ThAdmiral still.

[Cephrir]

@Xtoxm - Why don't you just wear a T-shirt that says "I'm scum!"? Snix, you could wear the T-shirt that says "I'm with the goon" with an arrow that points to Xtoxm.

It's reasonable to backlash at the people who want you dead but you're predesesor had dug herself a deep hole and you aren't doing much to try and get yourself out of it. IMO

Read: "You're not doing much to get out of it... because you called me scum."

I could go for an Xtoxm lynch, but would still prefer ThAdmiral. Never did think Yvonne was scum, still don't.

[Cephrir]

Well, I know how Ecto's going to play now.

[Cephrir]

I wouldn't call that bending, but sure.

[Cephrir]

257. What don't you have against ThAdmiral? Why have you hardly mentioned him at all?

[Cephrir]

Dizzy- Um... I don't agree, he absoltuely has. Like, he's stopped rampaging after ThAdmiral.

Ecto- Alright, if you're going to point it out yourself... that's actually quite helpful. Thank you. Now I don't have to think about it anymore.

FoS: Dizzy

, by the way.

[Cephrir]

1. Cephrir, why are you still voting for ThAdmiral?

My vote currently might as well be on three people-- ThAdmiral for stuff I already said, Xtoxm for stuff a bunch of people already said, and Dizzy for recent stuff, predominantly fishing and being wrong. I need to read things over a bit to decide which one I want to vote for, but I may as well leave it where it is now. I sort of thought Yvonne was softclaiming and exaggerated my feelings about ThAdmiral, but I still do find him suspicious.

I'd also like to point out, although this could just be coincidence, that the Yvonne(ectomancer), Neko, Scigatt trio seems to all have jumped on Xtoxm.

Snix, that trio theory of yours is positively silly.

nothing like that, I just thought your tactics were a little dubious.

/disagree.

[Cephrir]

I don't see that as OMGUS at all, seems reasonable. I might be interested in waggoning Dizzy. I would analyze Xtoxm and Dizzy like I did with ThAdmiral, but there's not much to see.

[Cephrir]

I'm inclined to give Xtoxm a bit more breathing room than I would to most people because he always played like this, the active lurking part at least. I do think he's even scummier than he usually is, though. ThAdmiral's most recent posts make me feel a bit better, he's still my third candidate but significantly behind Dizzy and Xtoxm. I have no problem with neko's play at the moment, I don't really see what the problem is. His most recent was nice in outlining the case against Xtoxm.

I definitely would prefer to see where a

Unvote, Vote DizzyIzzy

gets us.

[Cephrir]

Long days are not advantages to town.

But they do get quite boring. Especially when the posting frequency is low.

You know, I don't really care who's lynched anymore.

unvote, vote: xtoxm

You stole my thunder, I was going to do that

That was one of the worst posts I have ever seen, Xtoxm, but I'm not going to bother voting because, at this rate, someone else will probably do something worse within a few posts. I'll stick with Dizzy for now; there are at least 4 people I'd like to see pressured and hopping my vote everywhere isn't going to help.

Prepost edit: Missed a couple posts. Xtoxm's threat to selfvote is awful. Snix's reusal to respond to neko's case is also awful, but nonetheless

Unvote, Vote Xtoxm

, die scum die.

Why are there so many scum in a game with 3 scum?

[Cephrir]

Dear Xtoxm 371 and 372,

Why?

Love, Ceph

[Cephrir]

Wow, Dizzy and Snix as town... I can't understand you at all. You're playing an awful game regardless of alignment.

I feel like I've said that to him before.

[Cephrir]

Please respond in detail.

Reading is tech.

[Cephrir]

I've never played with you before.

The only way you could know my suspicions are off target is if you are scum.

unvote vote Cephrir

...........

My vote is obviously in the right place.

[Cephrir]

Dammit, I thought so.

Unvote, Vote ThAdmiral

[Cephrir]

Ah, yes. The cop claim. How... expected. I eagerly await the counter-claim that seems the next logical step, so that we may decide which cop claimer is real.

"Hey, could one of my scumbuddies counterclaim so we can get the Cop lynched?"

Why on earth would a scum claim Cop under pressure from one player (who is pretty scummy), and they themselves are looking fine? What could you possibly think his thought process is? "Duurrrr, I'll just kill myself now because I want to get ThAdmiral lynched so badly"... like, whaaaaat? Or, of course, you're scum, which is looking even more likely every time you post. Yvonne couldn't have looked any more like a Cop with a guilty without claiming, and yet you fished after Ecto just in case the scum hadn't noticed.... yeah, cool, we caught 2 scum on D1.

[Cephrir]

Even if you are a cop, I feel the best play for the town at the moment is to lynch you and find out whether you are or not. That way, if for some shocking reason you do come up cop, we can lynch ThAdmiral and get rid of scum.

Major Fos: Dizzy

This could only come from scum -- there is no way that a townsperson would

ever

come up with such a plan.

Haven't checked the vote count in a while, but if it was safe enough, I would vote ThAdmiral. The reason I am not going to yet is because he needs to weigh in before we do anything.

Wow, I didn't even see her say that. Holy crap. I don't think there's any situation when lynching the town Cop is "the best play for town". I'm glad this setup is open, otherwise I'd be worried about a Jester. This is ridiculous.

The cop has a guilty on him. He doesn't need to weigh. Were I him i'd either counter immeditley or say nothing again. It looks like he's gone with the latter.

Coaching?

Oh, and it has crossed my mind that he might be innocent. It's a notion that's been carefully considered and eventually beaten out by the greater probability that he's scum. I would be genuinely shocked if he wasn't, to be honest, and I'd be about as happy as a townie could be to be lynched if it meant lynching him.

You're still pretending to be certain despite the lack of counterclaim... wow. Awful scum play, and I'm not even considering that you might be town anymore tbh.

Why? It seems logical to me - lynching him would confirm him. If he comes up cop and, as he says, he was going to be NKed anyway, it's not like we're losing an investigation and tomorrow we lynch ThAdmiral knowing he's scum. If he's not, as I believe, then we lynch scum today.

Gee, I dunno, maybe because then the scum could NK whoever they want?

Nothing short of a Cop with a guilty could stop me voting Dizzy right now... I think it's pretty funny that such an obvious scum gets to live an extra day.

[Cephrir]

Just pointing it out, you don't have to get all emo about it.

[Cephrir]

That's a very protown decision.

[Cephrir]

Why not? More talking is always better for town, because it allows anyone who might be NKed that Night the chance to leave some more detailed thoughts behind (though that doesn't apply too much to this situation since we all but know who will be NKed), and it gives scum more oppurtunities to slip up in total, as well as more chances to slip up while the to-be-NKed player is around to notice it.

[Cephrir]

Without beating everyone with a stick and making them make some kind of committed opinion of the days events (and the value of that is actually decreasing), I dont think you are going to get much of scum slipping up further from this point.
I'd say end the day. If you have something that needs said, put it out there and lets get this done.
I would still lynch Dizzy tomorrow.

Mm, in a situation with a confirmed scum it's different, but in general this is not the case, and it seemed that Xtoxm was making a broad argument.

Dizzy is still looking worse every post, and I didn't think she could get much worse.

[Cephrir]

ThAdmiral's posts aren't telling me much. THis is a little weird-

Xtomx is very curt.

Is he always this concise?

I say, Xtomx - are you being brief on purpose or is this just the way you go about your business usually?

But that's about it. He also attacked Dizzy, along with basically everyone else, so that doesn't tell us much. I'll have to check everyone else's posts for connections to him.

[Cephrir]

I think neko, Cephrir, Scigatt, Marmalade are town.

I can see Dizzy being a misguided townie on the cop thing, and tbh, whatever she is, I think she really believed what she was saying cos is scum really gonna argue for that?

I highly doubt it.

I don't know about the others, but I know you thought I was scum yesterday. What changed your mind? I think Dizzy was trying to fish subtly and got caught, then was forced to stick to her position, maybe. Regardless of alignment it was a pretty bad play, but I think she is likely scum. James- if you and Snix basically did the same thing, and you hypothetically know you're town, couldn't a townie make the same mistake? Not that I have that opinion, but still.

[Cephrir]

So I reread everyone's posts in isolation, looking specifically for connections to ThAdmiral and when/if/how people mention him. I may mention other things I find suspicious, and things surrounding Yvonne and the Cop claim, but connections were the intended focus.

JamesThePhox- Defended ThAd a little, has so far spent today being suspicious of Snix for reasons that also apply to him, though I do see his point and to an extent agree with it.

Jester- Didn't mention ThAd once. Little opinion either way on Yvonne. Looking forward to hearing from SL because I'm not sure what to think of Jester.

Marmalade- Seems like he just didn't realize Yvonne/Ecto was the Cop for a while. Inclined to give him the benefit of the doubt because I think he's town.

Near- Votes ThAdmiral for no apparent reason, possibly realized Yvonne was the Cop. Mentions Yvonne/ThAdmiral pairing. Basically a lurker.

Neko- Didn't seem to notice Yvonne was the Cop, then claims at the end of the day that he was pretty sure she was, but his actions and votes don't reflect this.

Scigatt- A few small and passive attacks on ThAd, never really acts on this.

Snix- Went after Yvonne. Suspicious of Ecto later, points out a Cop crumb.

Xtoxm- Voted Yvonne and advocated lynching rather than replacing her. Says nothing ThAd has done suggests he might be scum, which would be a pretty extreme statement to make about a scumbuddy. In his LoS, he lists ThAd as tonw and Ecto as scum. Sort-of coached ThAd to shut up.

I don't see any point analyzing Dizzy tbh because I'm going to want to lynch her regardless.

Hmmm. That didn't really change much for me, still most suspicious of Dizzy, Xtoxm and Snix. Scigatt did behave sort of like a scumbuddy towards ThAd, but I don't think that's terribly significant. Jester/SL is now sort of on my scumdar because ignoring a scumbuddy is also common, but I can't really read him otherwise. Doubt anything is going to change my vote today, and Dizzy really isn't helping herself, voting me because she thinks I'm town and ignoring Xtoxm even though he was 100% right.

Vote: Dizzy

Dizzy, if you are town, you need to leave us with some concrete suspicions. Keeping secrets is no good when you're probably going to be lynched. I'm thinking you may be pulling a ThAdmiral at this point (giving us as little to go off of as possible)

[Cephrir]

Or, alternatively, you're getting lynched because you're scum. The 'poor me' attitude is not helpful whether it's real or not.

[Cephrir]

I don't particularly care.

[Cephrir]

Neko- Okay, sure.

I'm not going to acknowledge Dizzy's crap, but I would like to know why she isn't dead yet. Is there anything specific anyone wants to get out of this day?

[Cephrir]

Yup. It's very distressing.

[Cephrir]

Care for a little OMGUS with your scum pie? Has it occured to you that you've actually been acting scummy or is being the top suspect of EVERYONE not enough to convince you?

Perfect and SL need to contribute before the day ends, I suppose. I don't see a whole lot else getting accomplished today that hasn't been already.

[Cephrir]

Dizzy, if you are town, you need to leave us with some concrete suspicions. Keeping secrets is no good when you're probably going to be lynched. I'm thinking you may be pulling a ThAdmiral at this point (giving us as little to go off of as possible)

[Cephrir]

Nope, sorry. Try again.

[Cephrir]

How about "Cephrir is scum. He's pushing too hard for a lynch to come too quickly. Even if you (wrongly, by the way) believe I'm scum, pushing for a quick lynch is bad since it limits my information output in order to form scum connections and if you're in the right and believe I'm town, then you're losing any attempt for defence of scum-hunting.

I wasn't trying to quicklynch everyone. That was the point of my reposting something I'd said earlier in 512; I wasn't trying to end the day until it seemed like you weren't going to give us anything and thus were effectively claiming scum.

He's essentially said he's made a decision (back on Day One, no less) and would refuse to change it under any circumstances - which, one would assume, include the two remaining scum roleclaiming.

Yeah, that's not a complete exaggeration or anything. I think most everyone had all but made the decision on Day 1, but obviously if someone claimed scum or did something scummier than what you have (even though that would be pretty damn hard), I'd go after them.

He's also attempting to deal with me in an aggressive manner that seems to be designed to distract from any attempt to scum hunt elsewhere by drawing fire back on him.

Yeah, I'm trying to draw fire to myself, scum always do that and so do townies. Wait no, that would be stupid. You're trying way too hard by giving me motives that aren't there, it's like you want to find a way that every single thing I do is scummy. Stop trying to save yourself a day, it isn't going to work.

It's noteworthy that aside from me, his only votes have been for ThAdmiral (he jumped on the wagon early when ThAdmiral was under rpressure for a rather flimsy reason that explained why he thought it was scummy in rather curious detail compared to how he's decided to deal with me, indicative of coaching through voting)

Or I thought Yvonne was a Cop and tried to hop on the wagon without making her too obvious.

and Xtoxm (who he also took the same approach with early on).

See, the thing is, the reasons you're scummy are really obvious and everyone knows them, so restating them would be a pretty big waste of time.

In my eyes, likely scum trio is ThAdmiral (lynched), Cephrir and Xtoxm. The fact that Xtoxm and Cephrir are the ones heavily pushing for an Izzy lynch at the moment smacks of scum thinking they'd have an easy town lynch to make up for their loss yesterday, and getting concerned that it's not coming as easily as expected."

So basically, you think the scum are the two players pushing most heavily for your lynch? If you're town, you need to realize that everyone else doesn't know that you're town.

You're pushing the bandwagon in an entirely reasonable way, as opposed to the "LYNCH HER NOW BEFORE SHE GENERATES ANY CONTENT!" approach of the probable scum Cephrir and Xtoxm.

Or, lynch her because she's not going to give any, because that definitely appeared to be the case.

I stuck to Ecto because I believed he was fakeclaiming.

I hope you realize by now, regardless of alignment, that there wasn't a good reason to think he was faking.

]Oh... and if Xtoxm and Cephrir weren't already pushing the Izzy wagon as hard as humanly possible, I'd probably self-vote at L-1 so you could make judgements about who hammers and how... but since the scum are already there, it'd be rather pointless.

Threat to selfvote, that's helpful and protown.
Y'know, considering you don't think everyone should be so certain about their scum candidates (I would assume), you seem some certain and arrogant about it yourself.

Is he entirely wrong? Well... yes, of course he is. I am not scum. Therefore he is wrong.

I'm really not wrong even if you're town though, because your play was so scummy by any standard.

If you want to call me out on something, call me out on the lie about him seeming like a townie. It did, however, achieve what I set out to do, so I'm happy with it.

And that would be.....?

[Cephrir]

So keeping it secret and getting lynched without telling anyone is vastly superior.

[Cephrir]

That's how Xtoxm plays, he has no patience.

Distractionary tactics? WTF? I

responded

.

[Cephrir]

Actually Dizzy, it obviously has a lot of bearing because it's kinda your entre case.

[Cephrir]

Still want perfect to input.

Xtoxm, you will apparently never understand the value of letting days fully play out.

Either that, or the value is non existant.

Wrong, try again. I do realize that's just your thing, though.

[Cephrir]

I think you missed the point.

[Cephrir]

We might as well wait for another replacement during the day. I must admit, though, I'm getting rather fed up with this day as well.

[Cephrir]

You're fed up with every day ever that takes more than (the number of votes it takes to lynch) posts.

[Cephrir]

So, you're saying you think he's scum because he was on the Yvonne wagon with two townies (from your PoV). Yes, he's been pushing to speed the game up, but he always does. I actually agree with neko a bit; I think Xtoxm may be town although I'm not sure why. I still have difficulty grasping why anyone would dispute an uncounterclaimed cop.

[Cephrir]

Snix, I'm not sure where you get the idea that nobody's going to lynch you.

Xtoxm, answer neko.

[Cephrir]

Oh. Well, I guess it's something. IIRC, there are better reasons. I'm wondering if Xtoxm is being oppurtunistically suspicious without seeing the real reasons, but given his playstyle I wouldn't think that was a very good scumtell even if this was the case.

I'm planning to reread Snix; this post may be entirely invalid but I think I recall a few scummy things from him Day 1.

[Cephrir]

Hmm...so xtomx thinks I'm scum...well I suppose I'm screwed now, aren't I?

If this is not sarcastic, it comes off oddly IMO. If it is, meh.

Anyway, I did a reread of snix, and came to the conclusion that...I have no conclusion. I couldn't seem to get a strong read either way, as I couldn't find any blatant scum or town posts. Please inform me if you disagree.

I'll reserve judgement on this until I read Snix again.

[Cephrir]

I'm pretty sure the only reason I'm alive right now is because dizzy was an easier target for the scum to quick lynch. Both Cephrir and Xtoxm wanted to kill her quickly without much discussion (which you agree is good for town), but I digress.

This is a lie. Dizzy was not "an easier target for scum to quicklynch". If you're not willing to concede that she was playing like crap, then you may have problems regardless of alignment. I was willing to wait for some discussion yesterday, but there came a point when discussion was clearly not forthcoming. It's not really that relevant anyway, as I doubt Marmalade would have said much given his kinda-almost lurking.

You started asking for her replacement in 217 after she had said all she was going to do that day was vote. She seemed to either want to be lynched or be replaced and you gave her the second option. I didn't see then and really don't see now why you would favor replacement over a lynch. You have to understand that I made the connection between you three because she seemed scummy to me, you gave her an easy way out and she personally put scigatt on a pedestal. Now I'm almost positive that neither of you two are scum.

You really don't see now how that was better? We got an actual, tangible Cop claim instead of vague hints ThAdmiral might have managed to get out of (doubtful, but you never know). We got a reasonable player to give us some input rather than "Thadmiral is scum. ThAdmiral is scum. ThAdmiral is scum." Also, I don't follow your logic as to how this makes neko and Scigatt town (not that I disagree, but I'd like to hear your reasoning).

I never mentioned ThAdmiral because, like I said, I had nothing to comment on. I don't see how that was so bad given the way he played and the amount he talked.

Because members of a 3-man scumgroup often ignore one of their partners and bus the other, or sometimes ignore both.

I believed she was town. She followed the same logic I did on the yvonne/ecto debacle and, though her methods were very agressive, finally did come around and vote ThAdmiral. Which put me off when everyone then turned around and wanted to kill her instead of me or JTP. Especially Xtoxm, whom had been on our side in the ecto wagon until he claimed.

You lose. neko is 100% right on this one, I really don't see any way someone who didn't know could have thought Dizzy was town. Maybe as a possibility, but as more likely town than not? No effing way. I mean really, what could she possibly have done to look worse barring claiming scum?

Cephrir
So far today and yesterday cephrir has been right behind xtoxm on pushing lynches. He's been giving out excuses left and right for xtoxm's rushed behavior.

1) Today? How have I been pushing lynches today?
2) As I said, I got understandably (IMO) fed up with yesterday as nothing was getting discussed besides what obvious scum Dizzy was. I don't regret any wagon-pushing I did, as we needed Dizzy dead to be able to even think about other suspects. Her alignment also gave us some info, namely from your defense of her.
3) I've seen Xtoxm play before, and this is his playstyle. That's not an excuse, that's meta. I'm starting to wonder about him again though.

Xtoxm
xtoxm's been riding other peoples coat tails since he got here. I gave him 2 days to come up with even a small case against me and he didn't. It's not like he wasn't on the site because he's posted elsewhere, in other games. He couldn't do it for a case against ecto or yvonne. Not even one for dizzy, which you claim was the scummiest person yesterday. He's always been pushing fast lynches, twice now on confirmed townies.

The fact that you didn't even mention the fact that even today he hasn't said one word of logic against me bothers me a bit. The closest he got was saying that I defended someone I thought was town. That doesn't seem so wrong with me. Just like you defended yvonne when clearly she was without a leg to stand on.

Now, this is true. Wow, imagine that! Xtoxm can never come up with any real reasons, but he's been even worse than usual here, and his pretty much total failure to even

try

to make a case against you says alot for itself. I need to read him again. And get to reading you as well before I make a vote here, I don't want to just vote based on neko's case.

However, I don't think my vote won't be going to Snix today.

[Cephrir]

yes, she was playing horribly hence the easier target remark.

What I mean is that scum didn't quicklynch her neccessarily, it was a perfectly reasonable wagon for town as well.

I meant unless they knew she was cop somehow. She was acting in a negative to town way almost like dizzy. I'd just figure they, if they were scum, would go along with a cop lynch and then just play it off as mob mentality. But they didn't, hence the thought that they are town.

Possible. Were they really the only ones advocating replacement? I don't even remember but I'd think everyone would have been.

Often, not always. Everyone is different. I don't think I should be lynched based on a few broad statements.

No, but it's a factor.

It was a feeling. Only way I can explain it. and after almost lynching cop I didn't want to do it again.

Lame excuse. Gut feelings can be a legitimate reason sometimes, but... come

on.

Today not so much pushing as giving excuses. I'm still going to call them excuses because anyone can fake a meta if they try hard enough and I don't think that just because someone acted this way in one game makes it all right for them to act like that in all of them. I also understand that yesterday was frustrating but you still could have handled it better.

1) I'm not making up a meta. I assure you, if I did, someone would notice. That would be a stupid gambit even if I were scum with Xtoxm.
2) I didn't say it was all right, just not as much of a tell because it's not out of the ordinary.
3) Meh, sue me.

I'm glad I'm finally getting through to someone.

I think you misinterpreted this:

However, I don't think my vote won't be going to Snix today.

Note the double negative.

That's a complete and utter lie. Meta me properly.

I've never seen you not play like this, if you can find me an example then fine.

[Cephrir]

Most of your posts in that game are pretty similar to your play here IMO. But that game is still ongoing, so I won't go into greater detail.

[Cephrir]

Yes, but neither of you were really letting her defend herself. I'm pretty sure xtoxm even said flat out that we should just lynch her because "she needs to die".

That's because there was

absolutely nothing

that would have stopped me voting Dizzy yesterday. And don't get snarky on me and say, "What if someone claimed scum?".

I'll give you that. It's the only way I can explain it though. And trying to argue for or against me being scum based on believing her innocence is going to get into WIFOM pretty quickly.

Pretty sure that's not the only reason. I don't make decisions based on one action, usually.

Yes, but if I'm lynched today and you see you were wrong that at least my reasoning would be to go for xtoxm next. I hope it doesn't come to that and we can lynch correctly to make up for yesterday.

Shrug.

Alright, so I did that read. I saw some things. A lot of little things. And I got protown vibes from him exactly zero times. He makes some pretty lame cases, among other things, and it seems to me like he's trying to overanalyze to fake finding someone scummy, i.e. massive stretch to the Scigatt/neko/Yvonne thing, or the Ecto case which was terrible. And plus, there's a the stuff neko pointed out. Besides, the other player I find suspicious is way further down on my list, so I don't see me voting him today.

Vote Snix

.

[Cephrir]

"Fluffy posts"? I just didn't have time to read Snix and wasn't really able to have a definite opinion, but I was pretty sure I'd come to the conclusion I did. Also, the end of youyr posts seem like you're finding Snix scummy, then you dismiss it with "his actions today seem reasonably protown"? Which is it?

[Cephrir]

Do you think Snix and/or me are scum, Scigatt? Seeing as you haven't posted anything on the subject except for this sudden scumpairing of yours.

[Cephrir]

Please give examples of how I have dodged questions and I will gladly answer them. And is there a problem with interrogating others regarding their position? That's kinda the point.

[Cephrir]

Oh. Well explain "baseless votes" and "tons of fluff" then. I want examples, especially the former since you'll be hard pressed to come up with one.

Your second point makes no sense, you said I wasn't the one dodging questions. And no, it's not suspicious, it's scumhunting.

[Cephrir]

Since dodging questions while interrogating others is such a good thing, I believe I will do just that by not providing you with any of the examples you want?

Now do you see why I don't like Xtoxm?

I never said that was a good thing. You just said I wasn't dodging questions. Interrogating is good, dodging questions is bad. If I actually need to explain this to you then we are going to have a problem. And no, you will provide me with examples because otherwise your accusations are baseless. You can't say my accusations are baseless and expect to get away with not providing reasons yourself. Y'sure it's not just that you can't find any examples?

[Cephrir]

I wanted to hear more from James, too; he was my second suspect and his successor is not helping him any.

[Cephrir]

Why have you not been on Xtoxm's case for exactly the same reason?

Because he always makes baseless accusations, so it's not a tell.

That does not make his baseless votes okay, it's still scummy and I have yet to see you call him out on it.

It is not scummy, but it is also not okay.

Also, you have still failed to provide said examples. Your 706 COMPLETELY dodged my question. The irony.

[Cephrir]

Your point has been made; now answer me.

[Cephrir]

Your point has been made; now answer me.

[Cephrir]

I don't think you understand, the point of the entire accusation was to call you out on supporting xtoxm

So basically, what you're saying is that when you said this:

Baseless votes with tons of fluff in your posts.

And this:

And its a bit suspicious if you interrogate others without ever answering a question yourself.

And this:

Since dodging questions while interrogating others is such a good thing, I believe I will do just that by not providing you with any of the examples you want?

You were.... lying? Aaaaand....why?

[Cephrir]

I saw that. Were you making shit up or weren't you?

[Cephrir]

No, it's not pointless. Were you or were you not making up suspicious things I'd done that I actually hadn't, and if not, provide some examples.

[Cephrir]

Apparently I am not voting for Snix.

Vote Snix

[Cephrir]

No, it's not pointless. Were you or were you not making up suspicious things I'd done that I actually hadn't, and if not, provide some examples.

EL, answer me. You have now refused to do this... four times, now?

FoS EL

[Cephrir]

Okay, thank you. That's what I thought.

Unvote, Vote EL

(

Rather Large FoS Snix

)

[Cephrir]

Making shit up is protown? Who'da thunk it?

[Cephrir]

I'd say that vote was one of the least sudden things that has happened in this thread. See: everything between EL and myself since he entered the game.

[Cephrir]

I like my vote where it is, but would still support a Snix wagon. Don't plan on voting Xtoxm today because Snix and EL are worse; in case I never mentioned it, James was my second, non-Snix suspect.

[Cephrir]

Call it OMGUS if you want. It's so annoying how whenever someone votes for someone who happens to be suspicious of them, everyone immediately yells "OMGUS!" without even acknowledging the reasoning. But whatever. I think I might have mentioned James before; I'll have to go figure out what bothered me at some point. I think his wording when he was being hypocritical about the Yvonne wagon struck me as odd.

[Cephrir]

I don't find Xtoxm-Perfect particularly likely, there's not much linking them together besides both being lurkers. I won't bother commenting on the scumgroups involving me, except to say that if I were scum, there is only one player I think I'd be less likely to be scum with (hint: it's you). If you'd like to qualify your opinion of Snix, you know, with actual evidence instead of making shit up this time. Also, I don't know why you list Snix as potential scum then list him as 100% town.
You also FoS'ed him in your most recent post. Inconsistant much?

Most likely scumpairs:

EL/Snix (recent posts by both of them make this seem rather likely)
EL/Perfect
Snix/Perfect
EL/Xtoxm

[Cephrir]

No, I'm not angry at all, just frustrated. Also, I profusely enjoy your lack of answers. It's a really great feeling knowing you've caught a scum.

[Cephrir]

I will explain by Friday, unforunately most of my focus tonight has to be on upcoming exams which take place over the next two days (followed by 6 hours of work, ugh); so I will be V/LA until then--though if I find time or I can get through my school's SonicWall I may post before then.

Furthermore: Cephrir, you seem to be extremely gung-ho about lynching me, you have caught a strange enthusiasm for my lynch for "profusely enjoying my lack of answers"--strange you never felt the same about xtoxm, is it because he supported you? All I can hear is OMGUS.

All I can hear is not answers.

[Cephrir]

unvote vote SL

This is why you need to be lynched.

This is why you need to be lynched. For posting again without answering me.

[Cephrir]

How can Ceprhir be pushing a quick-lynch if he's the only one voting for you?

If anything, you appear to be the one pushing for a quick-lynch on xtoxm. And what's this about hypocrisy??

unvote; vote: Eldritch Lord

I'm starting to have my doubts on Snix. Not putting him out of my sight, but this is just getting ridiculous. You don't have time to answer anyone's questions, but you do have time to pop in and keep the focus on xtoxm. Come Friday, I hope you have some answers prepared.

Go ahead and lynch me, this is a secondary game for me. I just want you to know that when I come up Vanilla, Snix is also Vanilla and Cephrir/Xtoxm should be your primary focus' and their lynches will end the game.

I still plan to post something substantial by Friday.

"Go ahead and lynch me" is the worst attitude ever.

Your promised post had better contain some answers, but it certainly seems to me that it can't take all that much time to answer a simple question.

[Cephrir]

I suppose Xtoxm's blatant refusal to do anything is crossing the line from playstyle to scummy at this point. I like an EL/Snix pairing slightly less likely now (who the heck calls their partner 100% definitely town?), but WIFOM blah blah. They definitely seem sure as hell that each other are town though.

[Cephrir]

I understand that I would be suspicious of that player, but I was willing to sacrifice some Town points to make a valid, good point about Xtoxm. The fact that Cephrir took such offense to it is his own business, and doesn't bother me in the slightest that he thinks it was a personal attack.

I have no idea where you get that I'm taking it as a personal attack. What I'm taking it as is antitown. The opposite might be true, but it really looks to me like you said something, then realized it didn't make sense and pretended it didn't exist when I pressured you about it, and now you're getting off with the excuse "I lied" which makes ~0 sense.

His impatience with my promised content (read: "All I hear is not answers" and whatnot, simply because I care about my exam grades) has me thinking Cephrir is just emotional Town rather than scum--but I'm not certain about that.

Well, y'know, there weren't answers. And, surprise, there still aren't.

I agree, I firmly believe Xtoxm is scum.

Even though I think you're scum, I'm starting to think you may be right. If you turn up town at any point, I may put more stock in your opinion.

This is totally and completely unlike Cephrir's case on someone like myself, pushing and pushing the vote with such emotion despite my promised (and delivered) content and popping in to mention "Oh, by the way, he's been my secondary suspicion all along".

I did mention him before, right after he left the game:

I wanted to hear more from James, too; he was my second suspect and his successor is not helping him any.

In re-reading, I would like to re-affirm my suspicions (this time, they're not for a point about Xtoxm, they're real) by FoS'ing Cephrir for such passion regarding all of his lynch targets so far--it makes sense to wait for justification before lynching rather than pushing for a lynch.

I never pushed anyone without having reasons. Chooses one of the people I've wanted to lynch this game, and I'll find my reasons for you: ThAdmiral, Dizzy, Xtoxm, Snix, you. I realize you'll probably ignore this because you apparently have answeringquestionsaphobia, but I'll try anyway.

Also:

If you'd like to qualify your opinion of Snix, you know, with actual evidence instead of making shit up this time. Also, I don't know why you list Snix as potential scum then list him as 100% town.
You also FoS'ed him in your most recent post. Inconsistant much?

Cough.

[Cephrir]

EL. Answer. The. Following. Questions. I. Don't. Think. I. Can. Make. Myself. More. Clearl.

If you'd like to qualify your opinion of Snix, you know, with actual evidence instead of making shit up this time. Also, I don't know why you list Snix as potential scum then list him as 100% town.
You also FoS'ed him in your most recent post. Inconsistant much?

I never pushed anyone without having reasons. Chooses one of the people I've wanted to lynch this game, and I'll find my reasons for you: ThAdmiral, Dizzy, Xtoxm, Snix, you. I realize you'll probably ignore this because you apparently have answeringquestionsaphobia, but I'll try anyway.

You have no evidence to back up any of your statements, and you seem to think you can just say things without them being questioned. My most recent post contains exactly ZERO personal attacks. So don't brush off what I'm saying as a personal attack and then quote and respond to ONE WORD, AND NOTHING ELSE, from my post. For someone who just complained about strawmans, you have some nerve.

DO NOT just give me a snarky comment and then pretend I didn't say anything, and then make me quote this post for three pages before you acknowledge it. IT IS GETTING ON MY FUCKING NERVES IN CASE YOU DIDN't NOTICE.

[Cephrir]

DO NOT just give me a snarky comment and then pretend I didn't say anything, and then make me quote this post for three pages before you acknowledge it.

[Cephrir]

DO NOT just give me a snarky comment and then pretend I didn't say anything, and then make me quote this post for three pages before you acknowledge it.

[Cephrir]

Xtoxm > No lynch
Snix or EL > Xtoxm

[Cephrir]

EL. Answer. The. Following. Questions. I. Don't. Think. I. Can. Make. Myself. More. Clearl.

If you'd like to qualify your opinion of Snix, you know, with actual evidence instead of making shit up this time. Also, I don't know why you list Snix as potential scum then list him as 100% town.
You also FoS'ed him in your most recent post. Inconsistant much?

I never pushed anyone without having reasons. Chooses one of the people I've wanted to lynch this game, and I'll find my reasons for you: ThAdmiral, Dizzy, Xtoxm, Snix, you. I realize you'll probably ignore this because you apparently have answeringquestionsaphobia, but I'll try anyway.

You have no evidence to back up any of your statements, and you seem to think you can just say things without them being questioned. My most recent post contains exactly ZERO personal attacks. So don't brush off what I'm saying as a personal attack and then quote and respond to ONE WORD, AND NOTHING ELSE, from my post. For someone who just complained about strawmans, you have some nerve.

DO NOT just give me a snarky comment and then pretend I didn't say anything, and then make me quote this post for three pages before you acknowledge it. IT IS GETTING ON MY FUCKING NERVES IN CASE YOU DIDN't NOTICE.

[Cephrir]

Hm, perhaps you should have re-read my post Cephrir, I figured you would've been smart enough to do it by now but meh, whatevs. I asked you, very specifically about Snix--what you have against him that is.

I'm pretty sure I've talked about it at some point, but I'm not going to answer until I get my answers.

Yes, it was inconsistent, but it WAS a minor FoS, and a re-read brought me to repealing it. Snix is Town. Period.

You skipped the first half.

If you'd like to qualify your opinion of Snix, you know, with actual evidence instead of making shit up this time.

Key word: Evidence.

Also, this children's card game is really getting to you, perhaps you should explain why you are so frustrated when the slightest bit of scrutiny (false or otherwise) is applied to you. But since you dodged my question about Snix, I'm assuming you must have some kind of answeringquestions phobia.

I'm not sure when this became a children's card game, but nonetheless: I think it is BLARINGLY OBVIOUS that I am not frustrated by scrutiny but by your blatant refusal to answer me. You also skipped the second question, likely because I've caught you in a lie. Here it is again, in case you've somehow mised it three times:

I never pushed anyone without having reasons. Chooses one of the people I've wanted to lynch this game, and I'll find my reasons for you: ThAdmiral, Dizzy, Xtoxm, Snix, you. I realize you'll probably ignore this because you apparently have answeringquestionsaphobia, but I'll try anyway.

Also, this:

You have no evidence to back up any of your statements, and you seem to think you can just say things without them being questioned. My most recent post contains exactly ZERO personal attacks. So don't brush off what I'm saying as a personal attack and then quote and respond to ONE WORD, AND NOTHING ELSE, from my post. For someone who just complained about strawmans, you have some nerve.

Either tell me why I'm wrong or admit that you have been doing nothing but making baseless statements and ignoring questions this entire game, please and thank you.

[Cephrir]

See, the thing is, you actually haven't.

I kinda wish there was a way to ignore users on here, I don't need to read EL's posts anymore to know he's scum and all they do is make me want to strangle him.

[Cephrir]

Yes, that's why I'm voting for you, definitely. Nothing else. Thank you for putting words in my mouth.

<3

[Cephrir]

I apologize for my inability to address anything else while EL is in the game. [/actuallynotsarcasmeventhoughitsoundslikeit]

Scigatt, is your rgument based on anything but WIFOM?

I've noticed that a lot of people think Snix is scum but aren't voting for him, so that's making me wonder if lynching him isn't out of the question. Xtoxm isn't a terrible lynch, like I've probably said, but Snix (or EL, obviously) would be preferable.

[Cephrir]

Also, you'll notice neko's question is similar to one of mine to EL:

If you'd like to qualify your opinion of Snix, you know, with actual evidence instead of making shit up this time.

EL, I doubt you're blind enough to miss two different people asking the same question. And obviously, neko can't find your answer either. Hint: it doesn't exist.

Okay, sorry about that. Will attempt to focus on non-EL things again; this happened to me in the recently abandoned Mini 547, and the real scum slipped right by me, and although I'm pretty sure EL is one of those scum I should probably try to keep hunting the other.

By the way, there seems to be a general consensus that Scigatt is town, and I don't know why. Does anyone else?

[Cephrir]

You want further clarification in regard to Snix's Towniness? Re-read Day 1.

Not an acceptable answer. I want to know why

you

feel Snix is "definitely town." You say something like that, it is up to

you

to back it up.

Join the "EL won't answer me" brigade! It's great fun, I swear!

By the way, there seems to be a general consensus that Scigatt is town, and I don't know why. Does anyone else?

Scigatt was saying almost the exact same thing about me, so I don't know if this is meant to mock that, or what, considering you didn't really answer him as far as I remember.

The answer to your question would be no, though. I believe SL was suspicious about something Scigatt said to Dizzy that sounds somewhat as if he knew she was town.

No, I was serious. And, OK.

[Cephrir]

OK, let's lynch EL.

[Cephrir]

@Cephir:What do you mean by WIFOM in whatever meager arguments I have given?

A couple pages ago, you hypothesized that neko is either wrong or scum because he'd otherwise be dead. Hence, WIFOM.

I see how it can appear foolish, if you didn't understand the point, but I cannot see it as scummy. Sometimes the line between foolish and scummy is blurred, but I think its pretty clear in this particular case. --When you find it in Day 1, I guarantee you won't want it posted either, Neko.

With hopes that only the smarter pro-Town will figure it out.

I can't think of even one thing it could possibly be. Thus, I will come to the more reasonable conclusion. For the sake of the thread, this post does not contain me voting for you 100 times.

[Cephrir]

Or yours.

[Cephrir]

[Cephrir]

....That was extremely productive, Xtoxm. You'd better be scum.

[Cephrir]

I didn't think so

[Cephrir]

Snix, if you could answer neko before the day ends, and EL, if you could please tell us WTF you're talking about, that'd be super.

Xtoxm, do you realize that we needed these answers if possible before the day ends? Self hammering is soooo antitown that I'm not sure I believe you. Except I also do, because that is SO something you would do. Sigh.

[Cephrir]

Also, I'm pretty much screwed if xtoxm comes up town. I can't get out of a bad situation like this a third time.

This sounds

so

much like scum to me.

[Cephrir]

Particularly if Xtoxm does, in fact, come up town.

[Cephrir]

Why?

[Cephrir]

Well, he couldn't very well lie about it, because then we'd ask him what it was.

[Cephrir]

I guess. But he'd be forced to tell us what it was eventually.

[Cephrir]

I may have limited access for an unknown length of time. Shouldn't be more than a week, and I might be able to post anyway.

[Cephrir]

NL is the play in my opinion. There's no obviously cleared player in the eyes of non-EL players. The rest of this post was actually relevant, so I'll not say it yet.

Vote: No Lynch

[Cephrir]

If you're gunning for a no lynch without discussion, how do you know you'll be around tomorrow to elaborate on this?

Well, NL without discussing seemed to be the play, so obviously I wasn't going to go and discuss that. It wasn't somethibng so important that it would be terrible if I died without saying it. Thinking that plan may not have been the best one, now. Some of us seem to think there's and obvious kill, so maybe we should just discuss anyway, and get the opinion of whoever's going to die out there so we can look back at it? Maybe we should just make this day productive. In the end, I still think NL is going to be right, I could see anyone as scum.

SL, I don't agree that pointing that out was bad. I don't always "wait to see if they slip more" so I can get together a huge, impressive case later. It may be more effective in getting the person you think is suspicious lynched, but I could have died overnight and maybe nobody would have noticed.

[Cephrir]

Or alternatively, the scum think nolynch seems so clearly correct that it would seem scummy to be against it. And in case you didn't notice, you're not the only one against it.

[Cephrir]

...are you serious? The scum could easily be trying to use WIFOM with that. You do realize the scum, if neko is town, could pile on for the win right now, yeah?

And what the eff happened to nolynch?

[Cephrir]

I can't see nekoscum killing Scigatt last night, all it does is draw attention to him.

[Cephrir]

Y'know, you're probably right that EL and Snix likely aren't both scum. Much as they've both been incredibly scummy, EL's blatant insistance that Snix is town especially seems a bit of a ridiculous gambit for buddies. But I can't see them both as town, obviously. There's a chance scum could have won right then if they were, the logic used was horrendous, etc. I'll have to look at the interactions between each of them and others for possible pairings.

I'm beginning to think that no lynch might not help so much after all.

[Cephrir]

Snix has little connection to anyone in particular that I can see besides his early conflict with Near (armlx). Rereading Snix makes him seem even worse to me than he seemed earlier. Besides all the stuff we already know and have been over so many times, he completely dismissed EL's behavior out of hand as a playstyle thing after previously criticizing me for doing the same with Xtoxm.

Peers (EL) was just useless. JTP thought Jester (SL) was town. He voted Snix during D2, ironically. Not much else from him. EL has done nothing but attack me/Xtoxm, so there's not much to link him to. He did seem to think perfect (armlx) might be scum at one point.

Near (armlx) was basically useless, besides voting Snix. perfect was also useless. And armlx hasn't done much yet. Wow, that was not even remotely helpful.

Jester (SL) voted Near. Not much else. SL attacked perfect a lot, mentioned Snix as a suspect and never really followed up on it, also FoS'ed EL at one point.. That's about it that's notable, I guess.

That wasn't terribly helpful, but I do have a theory now.

[Cephrir]

So, neko posts asking you to answer questions, and says he wants to wait for anyone who wants to say something to do so, and you... hammer nolynch. Yeah, that makes sense.

[Cephrir]

Hm, I was expecting neko to get killed as well. I must agree that EL seems very likely scum. My theory that I mentioned earlier was that we have one scum from {EL, Snix} and one from {SL, armlx}. armlx and his predeccessors didn't say much, so the second decision is harder IMO. I'm much more sure about EL as scum than SL, who would be my guess out of the second bracket.

I'm inclined to think EL's insistance that Snix is town isn't something he'd say unless he knew he was right, too. Unless you'd care to clarify that, EL, which I somehow doubt you will.

[Cephrir]

^^^

[Cephrir]

I think we're waiting on EL.

[Cephrir]

If this wasn't LyLo, I'd be voting for you right now and am considering it anyway.

[Cephrir]

Lynching me IS a mistake--but I stand my ground, Snix is Town. When I come up Town /headdesks of "we should have listened" will fill my ears and I will experience great joy. You can blame it on me all you'd like, 'He wasn't clear even though his predecessor was trustworthy." "He should have cooperated." But in the end all it will mean nothing, and you should have read, re-read and listened.

No! It doesn't work that way! If you turn up town, we won't say "gee, we should have listened to EL", we'll say, "wow, EL really should have tried harder". I'm quite sure that nearly every player has asked you repeatedly so clarify why you seem to believe that Snix is town, and you continue to insist we should find it on our own.

I think Neko is a Town leader-and if he's scum, the way Town goes about following him is dangerous--Cephrir is hanging back and /agreeing with Neko--a shame really since his earlier contributions before this lylo situation were far greater. Armlx is in the same boat

Well, sue me, because he's right. I don't know why you suddenly don't seem all so suspicious of me, seeing as you were all for lynching me Day 3 (with a case that basically amounted to "he voted for Snix", at that)

Call it an appeal to emotion, it is what it is, your descriptions have no impact on its state of being. You are making a mistake if your vote is on me if you are not scum. Review Snix again, and think this time--I have confidence that at least one of you will find it and turn this thing around in our best interest. While you're at it, review this wagon--draw your own conclusions but does it not seem a little too 'band-waggony' to be completely legit in a lylo situation? Maybe its just me.

It IS an appeal to emotion though. I know I for one have reread Snix numerous times both for the sake of determining his alignment as well as looking for whatever the heck you're talking about. This wagon doesn't seem especially scum-driven to me, no. And in a LyLo situation, you need to make a better effort if you're town, because your current behavior as well as what you've been doing all game has been scummy. LyLo is a really dumb time to play the give-up card.

I don't think anybody has been "following" me. Cephrir, I'm starting to think, has been buddying up to me most of the game, and while this has concerned me, it doesn't ever seem to have concerned him, which it should.

Honestly, it doesn't concern me that I've been agreeing with most everything you've said in this game at all, because I can't see you as scum at all. And plus, if you are, I'd say EL would be your most likely partner anyway. The scum are probably playing WIFOM games to get us to ask why you haven't been killed yet, etc.

[Cephrir]

I can really explain why except that you played the Yvonne thing very well for a townie. I know that kind of runs along the too town side of the arguement but it's how I feel.

I'm inclined to think that your opinion was influenced by the fact that you were on the wrong side of that.

Seeing as how I'm 89% sure EL is town and I know I'm town that really only leaves one option.

WHy do you think EL is town? Is this partially because he (JTP) was on the wrong side of the Yvonne thing as well (IIRC)?

Too townie is not a very good argument, but 'too scummy to be scum' is probably worse, so if you have other reasons please enlighten us.

[Cephrir]

Again, Snix is Town.

Clarify or shut up.

[Cephrir]

Ceph, out of curiosity, what likelihood would you give snix being town? more than 80%?

I'd say roughly 80% at this point. He was scummy in earlier days but he now seems unlikely due to sheer process of elimination, because EL is my top suspect and Snix is not a likely partner for him. I'm about 85% sure of ELscum, and there's a slight chance of them being scum together. If EL is not scum, Snix probably is because the alternative is two of you, SL and armlx which I don't believe is the case.

[Cephrir]

Actually, a Snix/EL pairing is all but impossible IMO given their neko votes yesterday and the fact that Snix would have to be not bussing EL today. Which is WIFOM to a point because I basically said they're acting too much like scumbuddies to be scumbuddies, but I still think it's true.

[Cephrir]

Meh. Sure.

Vote: No Lynch

[Cephrir]

Well, I said he's Town early on, before the no-NK. If I were trying to prove I was not scum by lying and confirming someone else Town I would've NK'd him Night 1. There was no way I could have foreseen the mod's decision about back-and-forth no-lynch/no-NKs. --This alone should clear me, but since it's still in the realm of circumstance I suppose I do owe you all some explanation.

Not only is that WIFOM, but I also don't even know what you're talking about.

[Cephrir]

Simulpost, obviously.

[Cephrir]

Hi.

[Cephrir]

No, that was an "I saw this thread and didn't vote" post.

[Cephrir]

EL.... why didn't you just say that earlier? And also, I don't know why you expected anyone else to find that and kept insisting we were stupid for not being able to find it when it's based on evidence that wasn't even in the thread. I mean, I'm sure you're telling the truth about all that RL stuff, but even after armlx voted you, you still didn't tell us until now. Why were you so hesitant to say it?

I don't know what to do now, so clearly, I need to reread more openly. I have to look into Ceph more. Just because he posted and didn't vote does not clear him at all... I don't see how he thinks that works. I've already mentioned earlier that the scum, if they want a quicklynch at this point, have to know that they're both around, so for them to just lay down a L-1 vote out of nowhere would be way too obvious. So of course you didn't vote, Ceph. I'm having trouble seeing what was pro-town about that post. Very tempted to vote you.

I know it didn't clear me. I didn't expect it to. It just seemed like that was what you do in that situation. And it did end up proving that Ceph/neko is impossible. If SL had shown up it would have proven I'm not scum with him either. Which I guess was the idea, sort of. It may not look that way without the knowledge that I'm town, but that's what it was. As scum I don't see how posting that could have been anything but stupid.

[Cephrir]

Wow, I was afraid I might have blown it for a bit with the Hi post (which, incidentally, I was telling the truth about).

Ceph, I feel so used . Gut said that's what was going on, but I couldn't back it up with much. You played pretty well. I hope we're on the same side in Lovers.

Sorry <3

If it's any consolation, you were basically our second pick for NK night 2 and 3 I think. We didn't expect anyone to actually try to lynch you for the WIFOM, that was kinda funny actually. You were absolutely right that we didn't kill you because your suspicions were off, if you didn't keep saying I was town you would have died night 2, probably.

Can't blame the town for any of the mislynches, all three of them basically lynched themselves, all we had to do to win was not suck.