Open 62 - Strawberry Mafia - Game Over! before 568

[DizzyIzzyB13]

Hi guys! currently reading over the thread, will post something else later.

[DizzyIzzyB13]

Something that doesn't seem to have been discussed regarding the people who have pushed for others to be lynched - is it not possible that one of the is the cop? As there is no Doc, the Cop isn't going to make a roleclaim this soon, and the Cop was able to investigate someone on Night Zero, meaning that, should they have taken advantage of this, they could very well know that someone is Mafia if they scored lucky, and given they want to protect their role, may be coming off as scummy. Just something we shoudl consider, I think.

[DizzyIzzyB13]

Well, I certainly don't think we should be actively seeking the Cop... just being mindful of the possibilities. I'd hate to lynch a cop by mistake, wouldn't you?

[DizzyIzzyB13]

No, I think the game is suffieciently active to get a lynch.

That would pretty much require unanimity between the most active players. Do you really think that's likely? I don't. I'm not going to say you're acting scummy, but I wouldn't say pushing for a deadline when there's no clear suspects is benefitting the town, either.

[DizzyIzzyB13]

Yvonne is being lurky and suspicious.

FoS: Yvonne

. It's not more serious than that... yet. Yvonne: Read to catch up and share some thoughts, please.

[DizzyIzzyB13]

Lurky is non-productive. Non-productive is suspicious. Therefore, lurky is suspicious. A single instance of suspicious behaviour, though, is not grounds to lynch someone. It's just grounds to investigate further.

[DizzyIzzyB13]

unvote

[DizzyIzzyB13]

Given that Yvonne has yet to respond, I think more pressure is needed to get some answers from her.

vote: Yvonne

[DizzyIzzyB13]

If I hadn't already voted for Yvonne, I would do it now.

[DizzyIzzyB13]

Hi, just posting to let people know that I've unfortunately come down with a stomach bug, so my contributions may well be sporadic for the next few days.

[DizzyIzzyB13]

She's not inactive, though. She's delibrately lurking, seeing as she's careful to respond to prods and "contribute" occasionally. She is not adding anything to the town, and has avoided the opportunity to do so when give the chance. What you're essentially proposing that, instead of lynching her for suspicious play, we just replace her. That's not how it works. By your logic, we'd be replacing people who screamed out "OMG, LUKKK @ ME I IZ SCUM L0LZ0RS!" That just doesn't fly.

vote: Yvonne

, in case I wasn't voting her already, I'm too ill to remember if I am or not.

[DizzyIzzyB13]

I am seriously suspcious of all the people who for some bizarre reason want to replace Yvonne because she's actively lurking, rather than lynching her for her blatantly scummy behaviour.

[DizzyIzzyB13]

Can any of you show me how ThAdmiral looks town to you? If you cannot, then is my vote to lynch him today not justified? Also, a question to those of you who are voting me and/or think I'm scum: What do you think I'm currently trying to accomplish as scum?

Can you show us how ThAdmiral looks scummy to you?

[DizzyIzzyB13]

Obviously none of you seem to be aware of the manner in which I'm contributing to town. I may not be the most vocal and pro-town player in this game, but if you think I'm doing nothing at the moment, you're absolutely wrong. Scigatt and Cephrir, the rest of the players will come later. Will you allow some more time to pass instead of rushing to get me lynched or replaced? It's not like I can run away later and escape without saying anything since my neck is already that much closer to the rope. Dizzy, please answer the questions without posing another question back at me. ThAdmiral has not done anything pro-town ever since I called him out on his intentional bandwagoning and if you think I'm a better lynch than him, then kindly demonstrate ThAdmiral's pro-town behaviour. This goes for all those who have votes on me and/or want me lynched ie. Xtoxm, Snix, Dizzy.

I will answer your questions when you answer the questions you have been avoiding long before you even asked anything.

[DizzyIzzyB13]

Well, then... if Yvonne's being replaced, then

unvote

. I'm happy to give the replacement a chance to be more useful than her.

A longer post will hopefully be forthcoming over the next few days, once I've finished having my ass-kicked by this goddamn stomach bug.

[DizzyIzzyB13]

Alright. Ectomancer, we await contribution. If you're not convincing us you're not scum, then you might get lynched for Yvonne's suspicious behaviour. So, no pressure!

[DizzyIzzyB13]

vote: Ectomancer

. His play since replacing Yvonne has done nothing to allay the suspicions that Yvonne developed, and I feel he's had adequate opportunity to give me a better impression. He hasn't.

[DizzyIzzyB13]

I read you Dizzy.

I'd like you to explain yourself.

At the beginning of the game, you mentioned the Cop, and the idea that a lucky one might push for a lynch and look scummy.

Something that doesn't seem to have been discussed regarding the people who have pushed for others to be lynched - is it not possible that one of the is the cop? As there is no Doc, the Cop isn't going to make a roleclaim this soon, and the Cop was able to investigate someone on Night Zero, meaning that, should they have taken advantage of this, they could very well know that someone is Mafia if they scored lucky, and given they want to protect their role, may be coming off as scummy. Just something we shoudl consider, I think.

You then try to appear helpful with the "I'd hate to lynch a cop by mistake" line. How about you let the Cop do their job and you quit hunting them?

Well, I certainly don't think we should be actively seeking the Cop... just being mindful of the possibilities. I'd hate to lynch a cop by mistake, wouldn't you?

After all of this, it is very interesting then, that you are choosing to go after the player who had a singular, mostly unexplained focus. Isn't that what you warned us to watch out for? That maybe that person could be the Cop? Why then are you ignoring your own advice and voting for the role that fit your previous profile?

fos

Inconsistent play by our DizzyIzzy.

Is that a claim?

Yvonne's behaviour didn't appear to be consistent with what I said - despite what was being said about her, she never once tried to change strategy from doing nothing but saying "Vote for ThAdmiral" to attempting to convice people it was the right move. If she had definite knowledge he was scum, I'd expect a change of strategy when she realised hers wasn't working. That didn't happen.

That, or since I've been posting whilst ill for the past week and a half, I completely forgot which game was which and had no idea of the which set-up I was posting about. Your choice, but I prefer the other explanation, personally.

[DizzyIzzyB13]

To answer someone's question, I haven't finished going through everything yet. I read the first few pages, the few pages before I replaced in and everything since, and 3 (4?) individuals in entirety. I've been slammed at work (where I can normally make a lot of my posts) and it wont let it up until the end of this week.
I can't say that I'll be looking to come up with anything dramatic from there yet. I'm far too interested in DizzyIzzy right now, and you may call it OMGUS if you will, but I'm absolutely serious about my suspicion with

his

actions. I say we pinch

him

till

he

squeals.

unvote, vote DizzyIzzyB13

Clearly your analysis of my actions can be considered to be at best flimsy given how much apparent attention you've been paying to me. Given that there's a helpful little icon right to the left of every post I make, getting the gender wrong is just bad form.

[DizzyIzzyB13]

vote: Ectomancer

. His play since replacing Yvonne has done nothing to allay the suspicions that Yvonne developed, and I feel he's had adequate opportunity to give me a better impression. He hasn't.

This is just wrong.

That's your opinion. Mine is that it is right. We'll find out who's right when he's lynched.

]

Is that a claim?

Yvonne's behaviour didn't appear to be consistent with what I said - despite what was being said about her, she never once tried to change strategy from doing nothing but saying "Vote for ThAdmiral" to attempting to convice people it was the right move. If she had definite knowledge he was scum, I'd expect a change of strategy when she realised hers wasn't working. That didn't happen.

That, or since I've been posting whilst ill for the past week and a half, I completely forgot which game was which and had no idea of the which set-up I was posting about. Your choice, but I prefer the other explanation, personally.

This is both

wishy-washy

, and

fishy

.

I wouldn't call either of them

wishy-washy

or

fishy

. They'd both fall under

flippant responses to an ill-concieved attempt to wagon, representing the low regard I hold for anything he says

.

[DizzyIzzyB13]

Clearly your analysis of my actions can be considered to be at best flimsy given how much apparent attention you've been paying to me. Given that there's a helpful little icon right to the left of every post I make, getting the gender wrong is just bad form.

Clearly this response could be considered to be at best flimsy.

vote: Ectomancer

. His play since replacing Yvonne has done nothing to allay the suspicions that Yvonne developed, and I feel he's had adequate opportunity to give me a better impression. He hasn't.

This is just wrong.

That's your opinion. Mine is that it is right.

We'll find out who's right when he's lynched

.

First of all your simply

wrong

because he was clearly playing in a more active and therefore more pro-town way to yvonne, and so your suspicion is unfounded (however if you want to try to continue on this line of argument can you point out specifically why you thought he "didn't give (you) a better impression"?).
Secondly -

getting a bit ahead of yourself

?

Is that a claim?

Yvonne's behaviour didn't appear to be consistent with what I said - despite what was being said about her, she never once tried to change strategy from doing nothing but saying "Vote for ThAdmiral" to attempting to convice people it was the right move. If she had definite knowledge he was scum, I'd expect a change of strategy when she realised hers wasn't working. That didn't happen.

That, or since I've been posting whilst ill for the past week and a half, I completely forgot which game was which and had no idea of the which set-up I was posting about. Your choice, but I prefer the other explanation, personally.

This is both

wishy-washy

, and

fishy

.

I wouldn't call either of them

wishy-washy

or

fishy

. They'd both fall under

flippant responses to an ill-concieved attempt to wagon, representing the low regard I hold for anything he says

.

Another weak response by saying that you didn't really mean what you said.

It seems to me you really don't have a leg to stand on.

I'm sorry, but you think you have a "read" on me, yet you clearly miss mypoint. Simply, since I feel there is absolutely no justification for the attacks on me, I am dismissing them with my own brand of attempted humour, since there's no actual case I can answer to defend myself.

[DizzyIzzyB13]

EBWOP: Sorry, I didn't notice the line asking for my reasoning behind saying he didn't give a better impression...

Well, I really don't know how to put it better than that. It's a general vibe I get from the tone and content of his posts. Sadly, there's nothing in particular I can point my finger at and say "thast's why" - I read his posts and I feel he is scum. That's all I can say. It's a gut feeling.... although my gut is still rather sensitive at the moment...

[DizzyIzzyB13]

So, Dizzy, you mentioned earlier that you were suspicious of those who wanted Yvonne replaced instead of lynched, implying you wanted her lynched. Was this just because of a "gut feeling", or was there something more substantial behind it.

Suscpion against Yvonne was not based on a gut-feeling. Yvonne was actively lurking, providing nothing of benefit to the town, stuck to attackign the same person repeatedly for no discernable reason without explaining herself, refused to change strategy when he behaviour began to flag her as scum which you'd expect someone with genuine role-based information and then got herself replaced rather than get lynched. To me, all that makes Yvonne highly suspicious. Frankly, it makes me suspicious of the people who wanted a scummy player replaced rather then lynched as well, but they could just be stupid rather than scummy.

So, I was pretty convinced Yvonne was scum. That's why I was voting for her. Then Ecto comes along and gives the gut-feeling. Honestly, I wouldn't be voting for him were it not for Yvonne's behaviour, but since they are the same role, it's hard to ignore.

Oh, and saying there is no case against you is pretty dumb. It's quite clear that, while your defences come down to being nitpicky about genders and suchlike, there are more substantial things that you are ignoring.

Seriously, I am not seeing anything. Ask questions, and I'll actually try and answer them with as little of the attitude as possible, because I genuinely am not seeing anything I have to answer for.

(Also I planned in the entire post to say at the end "Woooo I am Mafia Scum now!", and entirely forgot. I thought it was worthy of making a new post for, in case any of you particularly care, which I doubt.)

...is that a claim? :p (Joke, by the way, since people don't seem to get my style of humour).

Dizzy, I had a question for you earlier I'd like answered. It may be minor, but I'd still like to hear an answer.

I'm sorry, I don't seem to be able to find it. Could you restate it for me, or at least redirect me to it so I can answer it, please?

I definitely would prefer to see where a

Unvote, Vote DizzyIzzy

gets us.

Well, it won't get you anywhere if you're looking for scum. All it'll get you is a roleclaim at some point that you'll all probably ignore, and then confirmation that I was telling the truth if/when I'm lynched or NKed.

I am, I'll admit, voting Ecto because of everything Yvonne did. But I still feel she should have been lynched rather than replaced. And I'm not going to give Ecto a clean slate.

This is something I agree entirely with, and forms a major part of my case against Ecto. Except, I unvote to give the replacer a chance and get nothing to persuade me he's not scum and a vibe that he is, and apparently, because I was willing to give him a shot, I'm suspicious.

[DizzyIzzyB13]

Frankly, it makes me suspicious of the people who wanted a scummy player replaced rather then lynched as well, but they could just be stupid rather than scummy.

I unequivocally disagree with all the people who argue this. Please explain why Yvonne being replaced instead of lynched ranks "stupid" at best for you./quote]

Explain why Yvonne should have been replaced. Because as far as I can tell, people wanted her replaced for having a playstyle they disliked rather than any valid, credible reason like inactivity (she was quite obviously actively lurking since she responded to prods) or rule-breaking or such. That's why I think it was stupid to ask for that, because she hadn't done anything worthy of replacement. What she had done, however, was worthy of suspicion and possible lynching, and instead of that, we were denied a (probable, imo) scum lynch because people wanted her replaced and got their wish.

[DizzyIzzyB13]

Explain why Yvonne should have been replaced.

You even want to go there? Okay.

1. Because she

asked

for a replacement. I don't have the time to look now, but I can find the post, if you so need it.

Irrelevent. She asked for replacement after the move to get her replaced started, and the movement to get her replaced came at a time when she had done nothing to deserve it.

2. At that point we were on around Page 10/11, and lots of people (including you) were relatively unknown.

I didn't replace in until the end of page 7 and made my first post at the start of page 8, and near the end of page 9 (post 221, to be precise), I made it clear that I was ill and it would affect my posting.

All of this leads to...

3. Having a

long

Day 1 is entirely in the town's interest in this instance. There are, perhaps, exceptions to this, but this game is

not

one of them.

I don't disagree with this. But, it's irrelevent to the issue at hand. Unless you're suggesting it's a good idea replacing someone who is not inactive or had not (at that point) requested replacement for other reasons because their behaviour might get them lynched too quickly for your liking.

Let's continue, shall we? What exactly is the

disadvantage

of replacing her? Turning that around, what are the disadvantages of replacing her?

None.

Yup, there are officially

no

disadvantages of replacing Yvonne rather than lynching her.

1. Spirit of the game - you can't just change people involved without a solid basis.

2. Loss of the meagre information already gathered from Yvonne's behaviour and loss of possible future information if/when Yvonne decided to participate further.

3. Providing a let-off for the most likely scum we've found.

Meanwhile, the disadvantages of lynching her...

1. Short Day 1 with little info.
2. Oh, golly gee, she might actually have been town!

The second point is a silly argument, you could say that about anyone you're abut to lynch unless you know you're a Sane Cop who's already read scum from someone, and given Yvonne's suspicious behaviour, I feel it's more likely than not that she isn't.

The first is the only possible negative I can think of, but sometimes you can't help having a short day one when someone has essentially flagged themselves as scum and refused to comply with any attempt to prove their innocence in a set-up that we know doesn't involved a jester.

Because as far as I can tell, people wanted her replaced for having a playstyle they disliked rather than any valid, credible reason like inactivity (she was quite obviously actively lurking since she responded to prods) or rule-breaking or such.

I'm assuming you glazed over the bit where Yvonne

asked

for a replacement then?

As I said earlier in the post: this is irrelevent, since she requested replacement at a later point, and when the requests for her to be replaced began, there were no grounds to replace her.

That's why I think it was stupid to ask for that, because she hadn't done anything worthy of replacement. What she had done, however, was worthy of suspicion and possible lynching, and instead of that, we were denied a (probable, imo) scum lynch because people wanted her replaced and got their wish.

Can you say "opportunistic"?

Can you say "consistent with every post I've made since joinigng the game"? My first post after the one where I said "Hello" after replacing in was to voice suspicion of Yvonne. I've consistently held the position that Yvonne was scummy whilst she was responding to prods and actively lurking.

I've had this argument with xtoxm as well. Neither of you have been able to come up with anything except continual blubbering. The only defence I have had is:

She's scum, so let's just lynch!!!!!

You're not paying attention to what I've been saying then, clearly. My case against Yvonne can be summarised thusly:

She was actively lurking since the beginning of the game. She kept a deliberately low profile, adding nothing to the town's pool of information. She responded to prods and posted occasional, content-free posts in order that the mod and the participants knew she was around. This behaviour does not benefit the town and is indicative of scum.

She single-mindedly pursued one single person, without providing justification and ignoring/refusing requests for her to explain her suspicions. Again... behaviour not benefitting the town because ti was hindering our attempts to gather information.

When people began to question her behaviour, she avoided questions and refused to give information. This is what her entire strategy appeared to be about - denying information.

None

of Yvonne's behaviour appeared to benefit us. That's why I think shes likely to be scum.

I'm sorry if the tone of this post seemed rude, Dizzy, it wasn't meant to be.

I don't think it came off that way. Clearly, we seem to just have divergant opinions on the matter. I mean, I think you're completely wrong but I also don't think you're scum at the moment. I would just say that I don't think accusing me of opportunism with regards Yvonne since I've been on her since I joined the game is entirely fair or accurtate, though.

[Side note: Dizzy is saying pretty much the exact same things Snix is in regards to Yvonne and the replacing business. At this point, I am about 95% positive that at least one of the two is scum. Before I forget, Dizzy, my question was about how you're so sure Ecto will be lynched.]

Ah. That was a posting error. It should have read "if/when" rather than just "when". Certainly gave my post a completely unintended meaning.

[DizzyIzzyB13]

Ah, yes. The cop claim. How... expected. I eagerly await the counter-claim that seems the next logical step, so that we may decide which cop claimer is real.

[DizzyIzzyB13]

See, I'm leery of his cop claim because there's a post earlier on where he essentially said "If Yvonne isn't the cop, then why would she act like she did?", to which I posted certain concerns over how Yvonne reacted to people syaing she was suspicious that I don't recall being acknowledged by him. It seemed very much like something he threw out in a vague way of saying something without coming out and openly stating it so that later, when he made his cop claim, he ould use it as evidence to support his claim in the event of a counterclaim (which if he's scum, would probably be from a genuine cop).

If he's scum, then the cop role would be one he could use to lead discussion away from the scum. It's a good role for scum to claim if they can pull it off. It's a good role for him to claim to explain away Yvonne's behaviour. And if he's scum, he's certainly getting the reaction he'd want with people backing away from him because of it. Snix's 377 makes a good case against Ecto, which is not at all inconsistent with a fake claim of Cop.

I'd be willing to bet a scum partner would have been one of the people who promptly said "Oh, I thought Yvonne was the cop all along" as if to give credence to his claim. The timing just seems.. entirely off. It's a claim out of nowhere, when one would assume a cop would avoid claiming at all if possible. I don't think there were any indications that he was a top nightkill target, at least in part because I think he was probably still leading the field in the "get lynched" stakes. He's been in the same situation with regards votes for a good couple of pages, with no indication that new people were going to vote for him. I don't think he's at L-1, but we haven't had a vote count for a while so I might be off on that. The only think I can think of that could have inspired this is Snix's 377, which essentially restated the case against Ecto in more detail and a quite convincing manner. And if that managed to draw out a cop claim... well, I'd lean towards the explanation being "panicking scum" rather than "genuine cop", personally.

Ah, yes. The cop claim. How... expected. I eagerly await the counter-claim that seems the next logical step, so that we may decide which cop claimer is real.

I'm pretty sure everyone's chimed in and no one's claimed yet.. Odd time to claim though Ecto. I was really sure about you. Meh. I'll just wait for ThAdmiral to respond.

Well, not everyone has responded, and I suppose there are reasons why teh cop might not want to claim. If the cop were already on the Ecto wagon, they might just want to use the strength of the argument they have against him so that they can remain undercover. Perhaps they want him to survive to night so that when he survives being NKed, they can use it against him to get him lynched then, whilst securing at least an extra investigation. Perhaps they want to keep him alive for a while to look for more evidence of other scum. Regardless... while I expect a counter-claim, the lack of one does not necessarily clear Ecto and prove his claim.

[DizzyIzzyB13]

Ah, yes. The cop claim. How... expected. I eagerly await the counter-claim that seems the next logical step, so that we may decide which cop claimer is real.

Yes. Please counter-claim. Pretty please with a cherry on top.

Oh yes. Why on earth would I make a false counter-claim, especially of a town powerole that'd probably get me at best NKed or at worst lynched? I'd rather like to survive to the end with the rest of my fellow townies, if you don't mind.

[DizzyIzzyB13]

If you were a cop, I'd be very happy for you to survive to tomorrow, so that you could investigate me and prove I'm not scum.

But, I don't know you're a cop. Right now, I'm leaning towards you not being a cop. I don't know you're going to be lynched tonight, because if you're scum like I think you are, you won't be. Even if you are a cop, I feel the best play for the town at the moment is to lynch you and find out whether you are or not. That way, if for some shocking reason you do come up cop, we can lynch ThAdmiral and get rid of scum. Lynching me over you does not have any benefit. I will come up townie, and we'll have learned nothing.

[DizzyIzzyB13]

Really, I'd prefer an actual cop to counterclaim rather than one of Ecto's scumbuddies, personally. It'd be far less complicated trying to discern which was real and which was fake if there's an actual cop in the first place. It's not unexpected, given that he breadcrumbed a cop claim earlier, and since I don't believe Ecto is a cop, exactly what is wrong with expecting the actual cop, which you assume exists given the assumption that Ecto is scum, to make the counterclaim?

Why on earth would an actual cop claim for no reason whatsoever? I mean, that's a fair question, unlike yours which makes the (flawed) statement that he's under pressure from

one

player, when I've consistently been after him and Snix is the one that made the post that appears to have drawn out the claim.

[DizzyIzzyB13]

Nobody, including me, said I was under pressure to be lynched. I was under pressure to be night killed (as you know). I opted to be crystal clear about the results and actions taken in game, rather than risk having the waters muddied by scum tomorrow for a chance at another investigation.

Why not do that sooner? Or later? I really don't understand why you roleclaimed at that point. I can't think of a reason why you'd do it then, and that's really bugging about your claim. I'd be more inclined to believe it if I could understand what drove you to claim then.

[DizzyIzzyB13]

Ah, yes. The cop claim. How... expected. I eagerly await the counter-claim that seems the next logical step, so that we may decide which cop claimer is real.

scum?

Fos: Dizzy

Dizzy, has it ever crossed your mind that Ecto might be

innocent

?

Not sure if Ecto's play was the correct one, but I don't really have any reason to doubt him at this stage.

As I've said elsewhere, I expected him to claim cop at some point. What I didn't expect was the timing - he wasn't under pressure, nobody was on the verge of a lynch, and it just came out of nowhere.

Oh, and it has crossed my mind that he might be innocent. It's a notion that's been carefully considered and eventually beaten out by the greater probability that he's scum. I would be genuinely shocked if he wasn't, to be honest, and I'd be about as happy as a townie could be to be lynched if it meant lynching him.

Even if you are a cop, I feel the best play for the town at the moment is to lynch you and find out whether you are or not. That way, if for some shocking reason you do come up cop, we can lynch ThAdmiral and get rid of scum.

Major Fos: Dizzy

This could only come from scum -- there is no way that a townsperson would

ever

come up with such a plan.

Haven't checked the vote count in a while, but if it was safe enough, I would vote ThAdmiral. The reason I am not going to yet is because he needs to weigh in before we do anything.

Why? It seems logical to me - lynching him would confirm him. If he comes up cop and, as he says, he was going to be NKed anyway, it's not like we're losing an investigation and tomorrow we lynch ThAdmiral knowing he's scum. If he's not, as I believe, then we lynch scum today.

[DizzyIzzyB13]

Alright, since I'm apparently using flawed newbie logic and people are convinced I'm wrong, I suppose the only way to confirm Ecto is to lynch ThAdmiral. I'm not entirely pleased with this approach since I'm convinced ThAdmiral will come up town because Ecto's scum, but whatever. I await the impending hammering. I'd do it now, but people want more time.

I'll just wait until Day Two when we can lynch scum Ecto. Well, either that, or the scum get the bonus of a town lynch in the unlikely event that Ecto comes up as town, since I'm assuming that people like Cephrir will go straight for an Izzy lynch. and waste the day.

[DizzyIzzyB13]

What's wrong with looking ahead to tomorrow? It seems fairly clear that ThAdmiral is about to be lynched today. Assuming that happens, we'll find out if he's scum or not. If he's scum, Ecto is confirmed and is odds on to be NKed. Since the apparent consensus is that I'm scum, no matter how ill-concieved it is, I fully expect that in that circumstance, I'll be lynched (and confirmed town, btw). If ThAdmiral is innocent, Ecto is confirmed scum. He survives to tomorrow, and is lynched ahead of me on the grounds that he's confirmed scum and I'm not.

It's logical extrapolation, not forward planning. But of course, at the moment, anything I say will be interpreted as a scum tell.

[DizzyIzzyB13]

Dizzy, I can't tell if you genuinly believe this, or if you made a slip and have to stand by it...But you don't lynch the claimed cop to test if he's telling the truth...Especially not when he's claimed a guilty.

It's not a "slip". Lynching either of them would confirm the claim. I still think Ecto is more likely to be scum than ThAdmiral, so we'd be better off lynching him and getting scum out of the way today, rather than lynchingThAdmiral to find out he's innocent. But, I seem to be in a minority of one on that one. So...

vote: ThAdmiral[/].

If he's a cop, Ecto better investigate me tonight. I'd rather like to avoid being lynched on the basis of a misread if he survives.

[DizzyIzzyB13]

Excellent. I'm sure the scum will thank you for that later.

I screwed up...

vote: ThAdmiral

.

[DizzyIzzyB13]

The fact that ThAdmiral has been posting elsewhere but not here is rather galling. It makes him seem more guilty, which is bad news for those of us on the "Ecto is scum" wagon (ie. me...)

[DizzyIzzyB13]

Does that mean you disagree with the unbolded parts? :p

[DizzyIzzyB13]

Dizzy, nothing you can say today or tomorrow would prevent me from lynching you, however, if by a slim chance you are town, here is my suggestion:

Just because you are the lynch tomorrow doesn't mean that the day needs to be short. I think you should completely give up trying to defend yourself.
Take the lead tomorrow scum hunting. Find the scum. When you die, if you turn up town, they can go back and read what you had to say and give it the credence it deserves. You can die knowing you did your best.

The sad thing is, that's probably true of the rest of them, and I'd really rather they catch scum tomorrow. Since the only read I had was you/Yvonne = scum, then I'm screwed in terms of defending myself.

[DizzyIzzyB13]

I'm fairly sure that was a lynch, kleb. At least, according to other people's statements, anyway. Uh... are there rules about twighlight posting, or can we keep looking for scum while we wait?

[DizzyIzzyB13]

EBWOP: Ah, according to the rules...

4. Once a player or no lynch hits a majority, it is Twilight. Talking can continue until the thread is locked.

Excellent.

[DizzyIzzyB13]

we're waiting on the mod at the moment.

[DizzyIzzyB13]

You are, of course, operating on the flawed assumption that I'm scum, based solely on a reaction to a strategy you've just said was flawed. Meh.

[DizzyIzzyB13]

Cephrir is stupid, irritating, agrressive, arrogant and entirely wrong, but he still seems vaguely town. Thefore, since I was so very, very wrong about the Yvonne fiasco,

vote: Cephrir

.

[DizzyIzzyB13]

Nothing in Xtoxm's post is relevent to my post.

[DizzyIzzyB13]

It really isn't, though.

[DizzyIzzyB13]

It means that since I'm essentially a dead girl walking, I'm unconcerned about my lynch and thus will provide answers when I'm damn well ready to give them.

[DizzyIzzyB13]

I am doing nothing of the sort. Not everything needs to be instantly explained.

[DizzyIzzyB13]

unvote

. I got what I wanted.

I'm lynched today no matter what, thanks to the attitude Cephrir displayed in the previous post where people are entirely unable to consider their own falibility. It's funny, because that's exactly why I managed to get in this mess in the first place. But because I'll be lynched no matter what, I might as well get on with the task of finding scum by any means possible, so when you lynch me and realise you screwed up, you might have something to go on. And if that means appearing scummier because sometimes certain things need to be left unsaid for a tactic to work, then so be it. It makes no actual difference to me.

[DizzyIzzyB13]

And snide comments like that are even less helpful. Especially since you're reading "Oh woe is me" instead of "I really don't give a fuck what happens since I'm going to be lynched anyway".

Your inflexibility and attitude irritate me.

[DizzyIzzyB13]

Quite possibly because you're scum.

[DizzyIzzyB13]

Dizzy, Cephrir's attitude may perhaps not be the best, but he is

right

. If you are town and see you are about to be lynched, you should give some thorough suspicions so those still alive can use them later. Town doesn't benefit at all from leaving behind no information, whereas scum benefits enormously (since it means less info to gauge who their buddies are).

I haven't said I'm not going to leave behind any information. I'm just not ready to say anything now. I'm not actually at the stage where I'm about to get lynched yet, anyway. I don't have L-1 votes or anything.

[DizzyIzzyB13]

EBWOP: You have to understand, it's hard to generate suspicions of players when Yvonne's single-minded approach to TheAdmiral drove the game to a point where, even before Ecto's replacement in, it ended up as a tunnel-vision fest where only Ecto/Yvonne and then TheAdmiral were considered as suspects, and everyone else was barely examined and thus has failed to provide enough content for analysis. I mean, essentially, the only reason I'm being suspected is because I happened to take an unpopular opinion in the Ecto/Yvonne v. ThAdmiral scenario and nobody has much of or any read on the rest of the players. Essentially, if I want to help the town when I'm lynched today and proven innocent, I need to be able to get the information to form further opinions, which will then be ignored anyway.

I also notice the Izzy wagon is going far more slowly than it should based on earlier actions. This interests me. I mean, there are two votes on me. And since I'm a townie, there are two people who have an interest in having me lynched as soon as possible. I suggest that perhaps at least one of them is on the wagon already - more likely the one that won't even consider the posibility of my innocence than the other, in my opinion.

[DizzyIzzyB13]

@Dizzy: It's true that the main focus was on Yvonne/ThAdmiral. But also consider some of the things that went on during that back and forth post battle? Earlier in the game there was the Scigatt wagon that was driven early on by neko, which was then disbanded because of a semi-consensus that Scigatt wasn't too suspicious. And at this point, Day 2, I don't feel Scigatt is scum because of that wagon and also Scigatt's overall suspiciousness and latter vote against ThAdmiral.

Next there was the issue with Near and his strange line of posting and his placing Scigatt at L-2, along with suspicions against Xtoxm's posting (or lack thereof) and neko's "leading the town" deal, which was started by Cephrir.

I know the focus on Day 1 WAS Yvonne-Ecto/ThAdmiral, but there is plenty of information that can be gathered from Day 1. So it would be good to get an idea of your thoughts on everyone else from Day 1, if town ends up lynching you and if you turn out to be town.

If you are town, I understand how frustrating it is to be on everyone's suspect list and can't really prove your innocence. And anger and taking it out on the town by being unhelpful (or just verbally abusive) does tend to be the second thing a townie would do in a situation like this. But again it is helpful for town to lynch a highly suspected townie, than lynch someone else with that suspicion in everyone's mind. If you're town, then that just gives the town more information to find scum, which is sort of like a sacrifice for the greater scum-lynching good. And if you're mafia, then yay for town, suck for you.

You're missing the point.

[DizzyIzzyB13]

Neko- Okay, sure.

I'm not going to acknowledge Dizzy's crap, but I would like to know why she isn't dead yet. Is there anything specific anyone wants to get out of this day?

How typically scum, attemping to rush the wagon along without even acknowledging the person who's wagon you're on.

[DizzyIzzyB13]

It's nothing to do with OMGUS. You're pushing forward a lynch without giving the town the opportunity to gather any information from it. Everyone else is trying to convince me to express opinions so that they have information for later, whereas you are trying to railroad a lynch through. You refuse to even consider that you're wrong, and the tone of your posts is essentially "I'm lynching Dizzy even if there are two scum claims because I am right and lalalalalalalalalalala I can't hear you". Essentially, you're me yesterday without the consideration of Yvonne and Ecto's cases for the defence. So if I'm scum, you *must* be scum.

Except, y'know, you might actually be scum. Probaby rather than possibly, I'd say.

[DizzyIzzyB13]

I would have thought "Cephrir is scum" is a pretty concrete statement, personally.

[DizzyIzzyB13]

Nope, sorry. Try again.

How about "Cephrir is scum. He's pushing too hard for a lynch to come too quickly. Even if you (wrongly, by the way) believe I'm scum, pushing for a quick lynch is bad since it limits my information output in order to form scum connections and if you're in the right and believe I'm town, then you're losing any attempt for defence of scum-hunting. He's essentially said he's made a decision (back on Day One, no less) and would refuse to change it under any circumstances - which, one would assume, include the two remaining scum roleclaiming. He's also attempting to deal with me in an aggressive manner that seems to be designed to distract from any attempt to scum hunt elsewhere by drawing fire back on him.

It's noteworthy that aside from me, his only votes have been for ThAdmiral (he jumped on the wagon early when ThAdmiral was under rpressure for a rather flimsy reason that explained why he thought it was scummy in rather curious detail compared to how he's decided to deal with me, indicative of coaching through voting) and Xtoxm (who he also took the same approach with early on).

Xtoxm is an interesting case. He's made a lot of anti-town posts(complaining about long day ones, comments about lynching and getting on with it, etc.), also wanted Yvonne lynched at some point, without much of a reason given (and in the context of his posts around it, it seemed like he wanted a lynch for the sake of a lynch). has yet to post a substantive post (his longest is three sentences long and fairly content free) and, like Cephrir, has been really pushing the Izzy wagon today.

In my eyes, likely scum trio is ThAdmiral (lynched), Cephrir and Xtoxm. The fact that Xtoxm and Cephrir are the ones heavily pushing for an Izzy lynch at the moment smacks of scum thinking they'd have an easy town lynch to make up for their loss yesterday, and getting concerned that it's not coming as easily as expected."

Is that concrete enough for you?

[DizzyIzzyB13]

Pretty sure I'm not.

SL made quite a good argument, looking at your opportunistic voting stance during day 1 and sudden shift in attacks, while neko is right about the lack of scum-hunting.

I'm convinced.

Unvote, Vote: Dizzy

It's my point, so I can safely say that you're missing it. :p

re: SL's point (the best actual argument against me so far, since it does on the surface actually seem scummy): initially, I responded to Xtoxm's post without reading the rest of the thread that followed (including the Yvonne post), then when I'd posted, instead of going back to the thread on the "Click Here to see your message" screen, I clicked "Watched Topics" and went scrolling through my other games, forgetting to check the rest of the thread until later, by which time I had to make my "Yvonne is lurky and suspicious" point after whoever it was who made the point in the first place.

If you check my posting history, you'll notice I posted just one minute after my response to Xtoxm in the Mini 563 thread, and three minutes after that in the Newbie 586 thread, which I believe backs up my explanation of that.

Finally, I think you'll find I am scum hunting, thanks.

[DizzyIzzyB13]

Snix, I have also been pushing for a dizzy lynch. Quite heavily, actually. Are my efforts

not

anti-town because I've not yet put a vote behind them?

vote: DizzyIzzy

How about now?

You're pushing the bandwagon in an entirely reasonable way, as opposed to the "LYNCH HER NOW BEFORE SHE GENERATES ANY CONTENT!" approach of the probable scum Cephrir and Xtoxm.

Dizzy is being attacked more than you because once Ecto claimed, you backed off whereas she kept attacking Ecto. She has also decided today not to do any scumhunting, which only makes her scummier. If you don't find this horribly horribly scummy, I'd like to know what exactly it would take. Would she actually have to claim scum at this point for you to vote for her?

I stuck to Ecto because I believed he was fakeclaiming. You're wrong that I've decided not to scum hunt, though. I was attempting to take an approach that required control over the flow of information so I could build a case without giving it away but sadly, Cephrir's obnoxiousness has drawn me off it. Which I supose is part of his plan.

Unfortunately for you, now that Dizzy is likely to turn up scum after being lynched, you are now in the prime D3 lynch position. I'm intrigued to hear your xtoxm case, though, assuming that you do indeed have an actual case against him. Again, if you're town, this will prove useful when you're lynched.

Well, except I'm not going to turn up scum, and making plans for the next day before you've even lynched someone is apparently scummy (or so I've been

accused

told elsewhere).

[DizzyIzzyB13]

Oh... and if Xtoxm and Cephrir weren't already pushing the Izzy wagon as hard as humanly possible, I'd probably self-vote at L-1 so you could make judgements about who hammers and how... but since the scum are already there, it'd be rather pointless.

[DizzyIzzyB13]

Dizzy:You post 479 is inexcusable. To call it an argument is a stretch; it's just a bunch of insults with a vote thrown in as an afterthought. You complain about Cephir's attitude, yet you yourself rebuff any attempts to get these 'answers' from you, and you also strongly imply that you don't even care about the game anymore. So, as response to your 508: What is the point?

Oh, I care about the game - I don't, however, care if I annoy people at the moment. Since we all seem to be agreed that I'm the lynch today, I don't need to make people like me or my play.

Post 479 most certainly wasn't a bunch of insults - rather they were accurate descriptions of my opinion of Cephrir's play. Is stifling the flow of information stupid play for a townie? Yes it is, in my opinion (which is why I only even considered attempting to scum hunt in a way that requires no immediate explanation when I was already dead to all intents and purposes). Is he aggressive? Yes. Has he been arrogant? Yes, he even said so in one of his earlier posts. Is he entirely wrong? Well... yes, of course he is. I am not scum. Therefore he is wrong. If you want to call me out on something, call me out on the lie about him seeming like a townie. It did, however, achieve what I set out to do, so I'm happy with it.

[DizzyIzzyB13]

If I told the target that, it'd rather negate the point.

[DizzyIzzyB13]

That's not what I said.

[DizzyIzzyB13]

Xtoxm: Why are you always pushing for such quick lynches? You did it on day one and you're doing it now. Don't you see that limiting potential information flows is bad for the town?

Also, I hope this game can start going somewhere once I formulate a new plan of attack, since Cephrir managed to derail my previous one with his distractionary tactics..

[DizzyIzzyB13]

So basically, you think the scum are the two players pushing most heavily for your lynch? If you're town, you need to realize that everyone else doesn't know that you're town.

As opposed to thinking the two players who are pushing my lynch hardest are scum, then yes. The "they are scum" notion comes before the observation that they are pushing most hevaily for the lynch. The lynch-push has no bearing on the analysis that determines they are scum.

[DizzyIzzyB13]

Actually Dizzy, it obviously has a lot of bearing because it's kinda your entre case.

It isn't though. I'm sure you'd love to be able to play it that way.

[DizzyIzzyB13]

I'm convinced you should be looking at Xtoxm and Cphrir tomorrow, but whatever. Good luck, town. Since you start makingdecisions on the next day far too soon, you'll need all the luck you can get.

So long, suckers!

[DizzyIzzyB13]

Tomorrow's going to be confusing if she comes up town.

Prepare for confusion, then.

[DizzyIzzyB13]

I'm going to shit myself if Dizzy turns up town. I cannot believe a townie would ever ever advocate lynching an un-countered doc-claimer on d1. I mean really. Part of me is hoping she is just trying to give us a scare for the fun of it, but, it's not looking good.

I would still like to see the Snix case looked into. He defended thAdmiral and attacked yvonne/ecto before the claim, and avoided the Admiral wagon afterwards (he even voted ecto right up to the lynch). He stayed off the Dizzy wagon, sure, but that doesn't give him a clean slate.

perfect should also be looked into.

xtoxm should be looked into, but I'm starting to doubt his scumminess.

I still think cephrir is town.

It was a cop claimer, not a doc claimer, and I simply didn't believe the claim fitted with the behaviour of Yvonne and Ecto. Meh. I was wrong. I'll get over it. However... you guys wasted a day on me without even looking elsewhere. Cephrir and Xtoxm. Lynch them. At least one of them is scum, I'm pretty sure of that.

[DizzyIzzyB13]

No, Xtoxm, you're not going to be NKed because you're scum.