Open 656- Tit For Tat - Endgame

[alban]

RVS VOTE: Campion

Yet to confirm!

[alban]

VOTE: alban

For explicitly stating his vote was RVS, lynch immediately please.

[alban]

townreading fancypants btw

On what basis?

[alban]

you two are of course entitled to ur own wrong opinions lol

i like his tone. also gut.

Rather, I find your stand of standing out at this stage gutsy. ATM, I am townreading you for that.

[alban]

Four votes against me already
No valid explanation behind these votes.
So I am assuming these are all RV (except FancyPants since you are urging others to vote for me).
Not gonna defend self unless at L-1 or someone has a more specific/valid question.

[alban]

You are behaving like 1-3 month old infants. Which more than half of you are. Rise above it. Harkonnen and Eagersnake are the worst. Do you have absolutely nothing substantial to contribute? Stop making posts out of smileys and lols and one liners. Others too. Stop being pathetic.

Few points to think:
1. If I am a mafia, who could be my possible partners?
2. Are my purported partners likely to be on my wagon or not? How are they likely to behave?
3. If I am a citizen, why are some players so sure of me being a mafia? Only the mafia knows everyone's identity.
4. Most importantly, in a game where you need 7 to lynch me, 5 of you are currently voting against me. What's the likelihood that half of the players have formed an opinion against a player so quickly? What is the voted player likely to be in the case? Will the consensus happen so quickly if I were mafia?

My guess? At least one mafia is on the wagon.

Ask me relevant questions, and then decide to vote for me based on my answers. Not the other way round. In fact, everyone who has voted for me should

explain their reason to vote for me

. And if your reason is because I said 'RVS', it must be obvious to you that you are grasping at straws. You have a baseless read and zero reason behind that read. At best a circumstantial one. Which doesn't require my response but some introspection on your part about your gameplan.

[alban]

My reason is not just "you said RVS", there's more to it. You were the second voter; obviously it was RVS. So why the need to specify?

You say I am not a newbie. So then explain this: If saying 'RVS' makes me so obviously suspicious that 5 people will vote for me, why will I say that if I were a mafia, especially given my experience?!

If you interprete 'RVS' as being too careful about how I appear, I can make a counterargument that I didn't think twice before typing 'RVS'. And between the argument and the counterargument, you will have a hard time choosing, if you think rationally.

Players like you, who are obviously paranoid, should be more interested in finding citizens than hunting for mafia, coz there's a fear you may start finding everything suspicious and get fixated early on. If you start looking for citizens, you would realise that citizens say and do things which can't always be explained. And they* couldn't care less.

*Waiting for someone to vote for me coz I used 'they' for citizens, and not 'we' .

[alban]

@Alban, not everyone plays the same way.
Also people did ask you questions, I'm pretty sure you've been asked two, one was from me.

Answered that already. Ask questions and then vote for me rather than the other way round.

Texcat though.

VOTE: Vote : texcat
Didn't want to get his hands dirty on the Alban wagon, but needed to look active.

I don't find any inconsistency in texcat's behaviour. She found you suspicious in 86, and justified it convincingly in 93. And then her shifting the vote to Fire Assassin in 102 was convincing too. In fact, when I read it, I had the exact same reaction.

Eager doesn't seem quite as Eager as last game.
Sgz sneaking under the radar.
Persephone very non-commital, could be scared newb-scum.

Scum are to be found in the above, mark my words.

Surprising how you completely disregarded from questioning those players who voted for me: Harkonnen, Yuria, Fire Assassin. Are you saying that players on my wagon can't be mafia? Thoughts on them?

[alban]

@Alban the fact you said RVS makes it look like you are afraid about your vote meaning something. The reason why being a newb matters is because I did the exact same thing as town in my first game.

Ok, the reason why I wrote RVS. Some players are very vehement that they don't believe in RVS. I wanted to highlight, over and above the initial vote, that I believe in RVS.

[alban]

Well for one thing you're spending these posts discrediting your wagon instead of defending against it. All of those questions you ask aren't concerned with your own alignment; no one needs to pin your partners to vote you. Plus the very nebulous accusations you make throughout without the guts to start targeting someone is very deflective, Especially at gamma who isn't even voting you anymore.
I asked you a valid question: "Who is scum?". Because so far your contribution to solving this game has been slim, and the hypocrisy of you asking people to contribute more isn't sitting right with me.

You seem to be stung by my newbie comment. Clearly I wasn't nebulous enough.

If I don't feel defensive, why should I defend? You need to give valid arguments to support your vote on me for me to feel the need to defend myself. If you choose not to do your job well, that's a reflection on you, not on me.

"All of those questions you ask aren't concerned with your own alignment..." Think about it, and you will realise they are very much about my own alignment too.

"Who is scum" you ask. I don't know. Things will unravel with time. What's the hurry? Targeting someone without a valid justification - the way you and others have - I don't do that as a player, and I don't need to that in this game as a citizen. You may choose to go all righteous on me, but the way you and some others have begun this game is all pomp and little content. So, keep your vote on me as RVS, or keep your vote on me as a real vote but give justification for that.

[alban]

[quote="In post 130,
Surprising how you completely disregarded from questioning those players who voted for me: Harkonnen, Yuria, Fire Assassin. Are you saying that players on my wagon can't be mafia? Thoughts on them?

I think you need to understand that you are the only one in this game who can be sure you are town.

Being on your therefore isn't inherently scummy, even if we are all wrong, being wrong isn't scummy.

Building a wagon on someone and building the day up from the pieces seems like a common opening to a game. Hark, Yuria, could be scum but I see both of them actually trying to game-solve (albeit in their own way), which can't be said of anyone I've mentioned.

Fire Cat is null for me.

Fair point about Yuria. I don't see the trying at all on Hark's part, but it's for you to decide.

Fire Cat? You mean texcat or FireAssassin?

[alban]

Advising quick lynch on Texcat to get game actually moving for a few reasons:
1) Light scum reading them.
2) They are voting me.

So, how about it?

Why don't we bust you instead? You are replacement for someone who rfused to pick up their role. That's better than your point against texcat.
I have already voted for Campion, and now VOTE: FireAssassin.

[alban]

Advising quick lynch on Texcat to get game actually moving for a few reasons:
1) Light scum reading them.
2) They are voting me.

So, how about it?

Why don't we bust you instead? You are replacement for someone who rfused to pick up their role. That's better than your point against texcat.
I have already voted for Campion, and now VOTE: FireAssassin.

What does not picking up role pm mean here?
By not picking up role pm, they explicitly didn't know their role....

How is this an argument?

That they were possibly mafia and didn't want to play the game as one.

[alban]

I have been pretty inactive in this game, mostly because it is going the speed of a snail.
Maybe you can understand that I want some progress.

Before those previous posts I hadn't posted in nearly two days, and we have gotten only 1 page since then.

Coundn't agree wth you more about the pace of the game. But it's a dangerous proposition to vote out someone just to speed up.

[alban]

That they were possibly mafia and didn't want to play the game as one.

"Not picking up role pm" means they didn't even check their role pm card.
Do you not know that?

Clearly, I didn't. Good to know.

[alban]

"Things will unravel themselves in time" Nothing will happen unless you make it happen. Scum don't suddenly out themselves randomly. My reasons are clearly outlined in the past post and the one where I voted you; You are doing nothing to hunt. Six pages is clearly enough for a few reads or guesses, but you have none and aren't developing on them. Let me ask: You said someone on your wagon is scum. Who is your guess? You wouldn't say such a thing if you weren't looking at them already. So I wanna know if that accusation is a throwaway to get people off your back or something with *some* basis.

Just quoting your past posts.
You say, "my reasons are clearly outlined in the past post and the one where I voted you..."
Here's your post where you vote for me. No reason outlined.

Four votes against me already
No valid explanation behind these votes.
So I am assuming these are all RV (except FancyPants since you are urging others to vote for me).
Not gonna defend self unless at L-1 or someone has a more specific/valid question.

VOTE: alban who's scum then?

Here's your last post outlining your reasons:

Well for one thing you're spending these posts discrediting your wagon instead of defending against it. All of those questions you ask aren't concerned with your own alignment; no one needs to pin your partners to vote you. Plus the very nebulous accusations you make throughout without the guts to start targeting someone is very deflective, Especially at gamma who isn't even voting you anymore.
I asked you a valid question: "Who is scum?". Because so far your contribution to solving this game has been slim, and the hypocrisy of you asking people to contribute more isn't sitting right with me.

You are saying discrediting is a scum trait. But I started 'discrediting' only in the past few hours, long after you and four other players had voted for me. So how can that be a reason? Why not agree that you didn't have a credible reason, or like Fancy pants said, that the objective was to build a wagon regardless, coz that's how a game progresses. Why project your vote as a credible when the reason you give for its credibility happened much later?

I repeat, I do not have a suspect. The moment I do, I will announce. What about you? Your vote is currently on me. You voted for me two days ago. 48 hours before I started displaying so-called mafia traits. Was that RVS then? Is your current vote a confirmed vote on me? If yes, give valid reasons, and I will defend myself.
If your vote is still on me coz I am discrediting you and that's a scummy trait, not a good enough reason imo.

[alban]

Also what is the deal with the green text?

Wanted my replies to appear distinct from his.

If you're going to say there's scum on your wagon, it's best to say who other wise it's fearmongering.

The point isn't that I know. The point is that half the players are voting for me, within a few days of the game, without a good reason, and without me not participating in the game till today. It's suspicious. And it allows me to focus more on my wagon.

Statistically, if 1/4th players are mafia, and half are voting for me, quite likely that there's at least one mafia on the wagon. It's possible that all three are not on the wagon, but less likely. Also, they wouldn't want to be isolated like this; so, all three not being on the wagon is less likely.

[alban]

Reasons for your town reads please.

[alban]

atm alban's flip gives most information imo so

VOTE: alban

What info will my flip give you?
Almost everyone has suspected me.
If they haven't already, they will do in next 6 days

[alban]

yeah thats why. ur flip gives info on other playera

Explain please. If everyone has the same response, how do you separate scum from town?

atm alban's flip gives most information imo so

VOTE: alban

What info will my flip give you?
Almost everyone has suspected me.
If they haven't already, they will do in next 6 days

ur wagon is p much dead why are you still overreacting

Not every q/comment is a defense. Some questions are posed to understand a player's thoughtprocess and slot him. Hark is clearly doing a bad job with constant shifting of his votes. He is also doing a bad job with his explanation behind a vote. Worse still, he shifted his vote from me to texcat after questioning.
Try to focus.

[alban]

I will vote for Hark, Eagersnake or SGZ if the same scene continues.
I think SGZ is capable but chooses to be inactive.
The other two are just not serious about the game. Their useless playful banter, it's annoying.

[alban]

Try to focus comment was for Yuria.

[alban]

alban am i town or scum?

Don't feel bad. It's nothing personal. Just observations.
I think you Hark, choose to play a deliberate bad game.
First I thought, you are just passing the time. And that you are not a very good player.
But I believe you are a good player who is posing to be a bad player, and that all these useless comments by you are eliciting certain responses from people, and I am hoping that you are analysing those comments.
But I have no way of knowing for sure, since this is my first game with you.

And if you are doing this coz you are really not serious abt the game or not good at it, I would vote for you even if you are a town. It's more or less the same logic as what you gave for me. Except, voting you out gives the city more information than voting for someone like me who is disliked universally and from the start of the game. Maybe not currently, as pointed out by Yuria, but definitely in the past. And that doesn't tell you much.

In any case, if I go for voting between you and the other two, my hierarchy to vote out will be Eager > SGZ > you.

[alban]

BTW, you still haven't answered my q.
How does lynching me, and me flipping either way, tell you anything about other players.
Play it out for me, step by step.

[alban]

alban am i town or scum?

I think you are town. But I am not sure.

[alban]

Always going off the tangent, aren't you Hark?
The point is this: If lynching me brings the city clarity, lay out the two scenes for me.
What conclusions will you reach when you get to know I am a citizen?
And what in case I am a mafia?

[alban]

Agreed.

[alban]

A quick read on ever player. Right now, IIoA. Will follow this up with reasoning later.

Eagersnake: Is hardly contributing. But not a scum.

FancyPants & Fire Assassin: Not likely to be scums I think. Giving inputs (like 282). Most of the time, I don't agree with their analyses. Get carried away. But can't see their slot turning scum.

Farside: Not very suspicious. Maybe trying to hard? Nothing much as yet. But I would VOTE: unvote for now.

Gamma: Dunno what's with him. Posted a lot. But nothing consequential it feels. Is not pushing his vote on anyone. Flits from one vote to the other. Has already voted for half the players at some point or the other.

Hark: I think he is a power role or scum. As mentioned before too, I think he is capable but not taking any particular interest in any particular player. Plus, in his own bubble. I don't understand relevance of his comments most of the time. I am clearly undecided about him. Sometimes, seems like town. Sometimes a wifom-ing mafia. But I will probably vote for him just so that he writes at least one complete sentence.

Kop: Suspicious. Less content, more words. Writing style a bit like me. Long winding points. Which itself is supicious (note to self to write specific than long posts).
Also, no why isn't he taking any position in the game?

NJAC: Suspicious. Dunno why. I need to analyse his posts further. There's not much to analyse. But still, appears suspicious.

Persephone: Second least involved player after Eagersnake. Also the newest perhaps. I dunno what to think of her. She needs to post more to get a hang of her.

Texcat: Not suspicious. Seems genuine and helpful to the city.

Yuria: Always discrediting. Playing hardball. And going off on a tangent. But maybe not scummy? Dunno. Could be either.

In descending suspicion hierarchy:
Gamma, Kop, NJAC
Hark, Yuria, Persephone
Eagersnake, Farside = Null
Fancypants, Fire Assassin
Texcat

[alban]

What is this quick wagon on NJAC?
Surprising even though I suspect him too.

[alban]

lol?

VOTE: NJAC

VOTE: NJAC

{FancyPants}
{Gamma Emerald, Fire Assassin, eagerSnake}
{Kop, texcat, Sgz13, persephone325}
{Yuria}
{alban, NJAC}

How are you doing trouble maker?

Hi! I already caught the whole scumteam!

Yuria remains a town read. Firebringer seems also town. Harko is now null, I don't like his ego posts.

Do you townread and scumread people based on how much you personally like them?

If not - what does ego have to do with my alignment?

NJAC bus texcat for towncred

VOTE: NJAC

i agree, his reads are terrible this game. i think its bcz he's scum.

farside gamma kop fa, vote njac pls.

Hark, care to explain your back and forth on NJAC?
Also, is it just a coincidence that you are asking NJAC to vote for Texcat moments before Farside votes for NJAC and then you vote for NJAC too?
Also, is it just a coincidence that NJAC was your RV too? Full circle.

[alban]

Hark

is probably town but that whole scum claiming business is pretty annoying and anti-town. Do you get Nk'ed early in games often?

Yuria

seems to be game-solving for me, but I can see her potentially fooling me.

Gamma

is pretty null, struggling to get a read, why do you town read textcat gamma?

NJAC

is a town lean but has collectively said very little.

I''m town reading both

Eager

and

Fire Assasin

for similar reasons (that basically boils down to a IDGAF attitude).

That leaves the lurkers of Kop, Sgz and Persephone.
I can definitely see two scum in those three.

VOTE: NJAC

i agree, his reads are terrible this game. i think its bcz he's scum.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: NJAC

Yep.

What did NJAC do in last two days for you to change your townread?
What happened to your scumreads on Yuria, Kop, Sgz and Persephone?
Is it because you are not able to generate required traction on any of those?

[alban]

Up to now, I'm liking Fancypants, Fire Assassin for town. Slight town reads on Yuria, Hark, Alban, Eager. Null on SGZ, NJAC, Persephone. Slight scum reading on Texcat, Gamma.

Hark is only a slight town read simply because I don't see suicidal play like that as scum. It's simply not a viable game play that I would see scum do at this stage of the game, to openly put themselves out there. And if I think more about it, I think it's reaction testing to see who would actually push it to get an easy lynch by doing what he is doing. It's probably not the best strategy to finding scum because it has higher risk of backfiring, and less reward, or I may even be thinking out the box and this isn't his sole intention. I wouldn't call him newb town, or a VI, but I think it could be just his way of generating discussions, engaging with people, and looking for reactions, it appears poorly played, but it's his own unique way.

Kop, if you vote for NJAC, you should answer the same q I am asking others.

[alban]

NJAC can very well be scum.
But how about justifying your vote?
Only declaration. No reasoning.
It's frustrating.
This game is so weird.

[alban]

I like your paranoia Alban, but that looks pretty consistent to me. I think you're reading this:

{FancyPants}
{Gamma Emerald, Fire Assassin, eagerSnake}
{Kop, texcat, Sgz13, persephone325}
{Yuria}
{alban, NJAC}

Backwards.

My bad.
I have usually seen players writing their lists in the descending order of suspicion.

[alban]

NJAC bus texcat for towncred

Hark, forget my question to you.
It's not back and forth.
Dunno why I misread bus as vote.
But it would still be nice to get a reason behind voting NJAC.
Sure you suspected him from the start, but why?

[alban]

And suddenly five people were ready to vote for NJAC?
That was like a quicksand.
I hope I am not defending NJAC wrongly. And doing his job for him.
NJAC where are you? Start defending yourself

[alban]

I gave my latest scum pool here:

Actually don't bother, I don't think you're scum, just illogical.

Anyway I really think we should lynch a lurker.
I'm talking about anyone in Kop, Farside, Persephone, and NJAC.
Preferably Persephone.

This has been the perfect game for scum to hide, most of the active players have been at least somewhat town. Textcat and Eager are my outside shots for scum in the active pool of players.

NJAC makes sense, he'll do.

If you still have nothing more on NJAC as compared to the other 4, shouldn't you think whose lynch gives the city max info?
Going by interactions and content, it should be Kop > Farside > Persephone > NJAC in the descending order.
If I were you, I will keep Gamma at the top.
Their sizeable interaction pool gives me more to analyse even if they are wrongly lynched.
NJAC has hardly participated in the game. Sure he can be lying low, but if he flips town, his lynching doesn't give any info to me. Does it to you?

[alban]

Kop, good you asked these questions. I have the exact same questions in mind. My reads are similar to your reads on the posts you quote. Wagon on NJAC was too quick, specific ppl were asked to vote, no responses to questions other players ask, and going off on a tangent and being vague. This is all disconcerting.

[alban]

Hark, you don't respond to me when I ask you questions. You ignore me. So I gave up on interacting with you.
And now you dumping on me when I am talking to someone else. Why? Why is it so difficult to make this game a good experience?
Never again will I play with you.

Mod, I don't care about this game anymore. Please replace me.