Open 640: Diffusion of Power - Mod Abandoned

[Chip Butty]

VOTE: Chip Butty
I'm not allowed to say why, but he knows why.

VOTE: KAPPY for OMGUS voting, and also I KNOW he is scum, though I also am not allowed to say why.

[Chip Butty]

Also, hi everybody!

[Chip Butty]

VOTE: KAPPY for OMGUS voting, and also I KNOW he is scum, though I also am not allowed to say why.

This looks like illegal content.

Mod

?
[\quote]

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Aneninen for being a stool pigeon, and for having too many 'n's in his name. Seriously dude, I'm sure the Mod can read for himself. Why the need to go running to teacher like that? Anyway, I went out of my way NOT to refer to an ongoing game, if that is what you are implying.

Nothing else to say now.

Or, here's something. Do you all think we should Cop/Doc claim without naming our Nights? It happened in another Diffusion of Power, although I had to replace out because of IRL things and I think that was a scum win...

What do you see as being a benefit to Town in doing that? I can see benefit to Mafia, in that it gives them a little extra info, which might become critical down the track...

[Chip Butty]

Why was drmyshottyizik bussed so hard?

Guess I'll keep my vote where it is for now but, yeah, Kappy's posts look awkward, including this one.

[Chip Butty]

Do you want me to be mean, you motherfuckin' son of a bitch?

...or, maybe Kappy has gone beyond awkward here. This looks uncharacteristic to me. So:

UNVOTE:
VOTE: KAPPY

Kappy, if you are Town, FFS start acting like it, even if you have no idea how to do that LOL.

[Chip Butty]

Why was drmyshottyizik bussed so hard?

Guess I'll keep my vote where it is for now but, yeah, Kappy's posts look awkward, including this one.

Whut?

It's awkward because it carries on the conversation about drmyshottyizik being bussed too long. Fair enough to ask what the joke was (although the answer was kind of obvious), but then asking WHY drmyshottyizik was bussed? Who cares? It was another game. It's just making useless conversation instead of scum-hunting.

[Chip Butty]

I'm a bit suspicious of those who tried to promote early claiming, and inclined to look favorably at those not supporting it.

Scummy-looking: Kappy (again), Anen
Town-looking: Persivul

Although I like that Anen has posted early reads on several players, I'm reading him as scummy ATM. (1) He's trying to hose down the case on Kappy, who looks scummy to me; (2) His strong Town read on Persivul seems over-the-top at this stage. I'm leaning Town on Persivul too, but I think leaning is all that is justified so far. Also looks like Anen is buddying Persivul; (3) He is saying TexCat looks scummy on the flimsiest of evidence. Ditto for Shotty and Karnos. GreyIce? Yes, his posting could be read as scummy, so that might be a point in favor of Anen.

[Chip Butty]

It's awkward because it carries on the conversation about drmyshottyizik being bussed too long. Fair enough to ask what the joke was (although the answer was kind of obvious), but then asking WHY drmyshottyizik was bussed? Who cares? It was another game. It's just making useless conversation instead of scum-hunting.

Is making useless conversation a scum tell or something to that effect?

Not always, of course. I'm not sure how much I am allowed to say about specifically why I am finding Kappy's attempt scummy, because ongoing game.

I think I can say this, though: This is Kappy's second game of Mafia anywhere, and I've seen how he posted in the other one.

[Chip Butty]

Or, here's something. Do you all think we should Cop/Doc claim without naming our Nights? It happened in another Diffusion of Power, although I had to replace out because of IRL things and I think that was a scum win...

What do you see as being a benefit to Town in doing that? I can see benefit to Mafia, in that it gives them a little extra info, which might become critical down the track...

Anen, you still haven't told us what you thought the benefit to Town would be if we all claimed Cop/Doc?

[Chip Butty]

Shotty, I am against mc too, but I am suspicious of those who promoted it. That's why I want to hear why Anen thought it might be a good idea.

Anen - or perhaps a suggestion in question form? It certainly looked like something to were putting out there for consideration as a course of action.

[Chip Butty]

*...

you

were putting out there... ^

[Chip Butty]

I was actually thinking about this when I signed up if we mass claim we cut the scum down to 6 potential targets, and we keep those docs and cops safe. Is that really that bad a trade? I assume mass claiming wouldn't work well or the setup wouldn't be played but it seems like getting the odds to 50/50 is pretty good for town.

MURDERCAT also on the list of those talking up an mc...

[Chip Butty]

Mobilepost.
Think what you wish.
But it's strange that you clamped on that post while you totally ignored someone who was actually suggesting claims...

Who is that, pray tell?

And why do you continue to avoid answering the question? What potential benefit to Town did you see when you posted asking if we should mc? Not answering just makes you look scummier, imo.

[Chip Butty]

@Anen: Attempt to divert scrutiny onto GreyICE noted. And you still haven't answered my simple question: What benefit to Town did you see when you raised the issue of mc?

The way I'm reading GreyICE's ISO right now is that his pre-#47 posts are an attempt to look coolly enigmatic, culminating in an epic fail at 47 when he attempts some actual analysis.

If we popcorn claim we can probably at least partially break the setup

if the scum guess badly

. Obviously they'll go for a 2/1 or 1/2 split, but

since they won't know until the end of the MC whether we're in 6/4, 5/5, or 4/6

there's a shot we get 8/5 or 5/8 in the claims which would be HYPER valuable. I think it makes more sense to do that day 3ish when we have some cop results though.

Grey seems to be laboring under the misapprehension that neither scum nor Town know the actual composition of Town forces, when in fact Mafia DO know.

...

Do we just popcorn claim it? Popping two scum out of one pool makes that pool a masonry because the 9/4 possibility is sooooooo ugly that scum can't flip the coin on it. 4 man masonry breaks the game in half.

I have no idea what he is saying here

Oh right, we are told. LOL. Just the mafia doesn't know.

In this follow-up post (with the same timestamp as #47, as Persivul points out), GreyICE manages to get it wrong in a different way: Now he (bizarrely) thinks that Town knows the disposition of Cops/Docs.

Fine, lets just lay low until day 3.

At least he isn't calling for an immediate mc (which he hasn't done to date, even in #47)

http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?tit ... ower[quote]
The Mod randomises how many Cops and Docs there are: 1/3rd chance of a 4/6, 5/5 or 6/4 split each.
The Mod then randomises a number from 1-5 for each town player. This is the one night that the players' role works on.
It's possible for there to be multiple players with the same power and night.

Mafia are told pregame exactly how many Cops and Docs exist in the setup, but not who and what nights they are.

Cops and Doctors flip only as "Town Cop" or "Town Doctor".

[/quote]
Mercifully, texcat quotes the setup text to set GreyICE straight...^

Yep, totally misread that in the wiki, then was like... that doesn't sound right and checked my role PM

Finally, Grey gets it...

An embarrassed silence from Grey ensues?

Dumb or scum? Persevul seems to think scum, I'm inclined to think dumb.

[Chip Butty]

Could be both, of course.

More reads to follow, maybe tomorrow.

For now, Shotty, Persevul, and Cakez are my leading Town reads.

I guess if Ranger insists on posting naked rankings, I'll have to base my read of her on how her rankings compare with mine.

[Chip Butty]

And you still haven't answered my simple question: What benefit to Town did you see when you raised the issue of mc?

I don't think it's relevant anymore after Persivul's answer.

Persivul's answer doesn't affect the relevance of your motivation for talking up mc.

However, my original thought was this: after the claims (without Nights) there will be eg. 6 Cops and 7 Docs. After two scums lynched there might be a bunch of conf-towns. (Eg. 2 Cop-claims flip scum, all the others are town.)

Okay, thanks. Will have to think this through more when I have time, to see if it holds water.

Why are you so forgiving to GreyIce?

I'm not forgiving to GreyICE. His posts #47-#50 strike me as being a result of not understanding the setup correctly, but yes I do have doubts. He has been on the site for more than five years, so making an elementary mistake like that (two, in fact!) does seem a bit unlikely. One thing to check would be Grey's game history: If he has played this setup before, then he will look uber-scummy because he would have gained an understanding of this setup in that earlier game. I'm not sure how to check into someone's game history, but I'll look into it tomorrow (unless someone else does it first, hint, hint).

[Chip Butty]

Vote: Karnos

Not random.

Actually not random? Explain then.

Mmmmm. Overrated. Goal is not to bloviate but to share thought process.
He made one post, what did he do?

That, in the middle of Page2, was terrible.

Why would a poster make an effort to stay within RVS during a discussion? Is the RVS more interesting than the discussion? Or merely safer

As if everyone else had posted something useful at that time.

Yep, totally misread that in the wiki, then was like... that doesn't sound right and checked my role PM

So easy to fake that.

...

UNVOTE:
VOTE: GreyIce
Reasons above.

Anen: Your case on GreyICE seems awfully thin, as presented here. Could you please articulate why you think he is scum? Have I missed something here?

[Chip Butty]

Oops sorry guys. Don't have much time right now but Persivul's case is pretty convincing so far.

Vote: GreyICE

A lot of water has flowed under the bridge since my last post, notably Persivul v Grey and karnos v Grey. My first impressions on catching up were TvT in each case, but I'll need to go back and read through from the start again before reaching more definite conclusions.

This post from Robert leapt out at me though. Silent for three days, then just latches onto the leading wagon while contributing no analysis of any kind, just a lame ref to "Persevul's case". Not saying scummy yet, but def one to keep a watch on.

[Chip Butty]

VOTE: Chip

Don't really like these posts, seems like you are overselling your read a bit.

How is he overselling his read?

I don't know, calling out an innocent question and saying something looks "uncharacteristic" when the player is a noob in their second game feels a little forced. Then saying "FFS start acting like it" about these pretty innocent posts I think is trying to make them look like they are super scummy when they aren't.

As I have said, my previous experience with Kappy comes from a game that is still in progress, so I obviously can't discuss it. However, I think I can say that, having played that game, Kappy's posts here

really

jarred on me, hence "uncharacteristic". Also, his posting style in this game seems to me to be an artificial attempt to look Townish in a way that was discussed in that other game. He COULD be inexperienced Town trying too hard to look Town, or he could be scum. I don't think there is a strong case on him yet, but he is another one to keep a watch on.

[Chip Butty]

I've gained a lot of respect for the reads of both pers and anen so I will sheep this
VOTE: grey

So you read both of these as Town? Care to say why?

[Chip Butty]

@Shotty: Also, you are an experienced player. Are you really just going to sheep, without offering any independent analysis? What specifically do you see in Grey's posts that looks scummy to you?

[Chip Butty]

@Anen: Attempt to divert scrutiny onto GreyICE noted.

I noticed this while catching up. This seems really misreppy and reachy. Anen brought up GreyICE to compare and Chip turned it into trying to divert scrutiny? That's not logical at all.

Attempt to defend Anen by criticising my criticism of his attempt to divert scrutiny onto GreyICE noted.

Seriously, though: I guess there are many posts that can be interpreted in multiple ways, and "diversion" was how Anen's post struck me when I first read it. However, it could also have been a genuine question, and that is why I followed the comment you quoted with a fairly detailed look at GreyICE's contribution to the mc discussion. Anen hasn't posted in quite a while, so nothing new to say about him ATM.

[Chip Butty]

This post from Robert leapt out at me though. Silent for three days, then just latches onto the leading wagon while contributing no analysis of any kind, just a lame ref to "Persevul's case". Not saying scummy yet, but def one to keep a watch on.

Or you're just testing the waters hoping that a Robert-wagon will be launched.

You could make a similar comment about any post wherein a FOS was pointed at someone not previously under suspicion, so that's meaningless. Rather, why not give us your own read on Robert's post?

[Chip Butty]

@Persivul: Regarding the sequence #47-#50, do you find it suspicious at all that texcat conveniently posts the setup text at #49, allowing Grey at #50 to say oh yeah I misread blah blah? Why/why not?

[Chip Butty]

I'm not forgiving to GreyICE. His posts #47-#50 strike me as being a result of not understanding the setup correctly, but yes I do have doubts. He has been on the site for more than five years, so making an elementary mistake like that (two, in fact!) does seem a bit unlikely.

One thing to check would be Grey's game history: If he has played this setup before

, then he will look uber-scummy because he would have gained an understanding of this setup in that earlier game. I'm not sure how to check into someone's game history, but I'll look into it tomorrow (unless someone else does it first, hint, hint).

Or both of you are scum.

I did that awhile ago. He hasn't played this setup before.

Okay, thanks. So, I'm not really sure what to conclude about Grey based on this. Gut feel tells me "dumb" but I acknowledge it could also mean "scum". texcat's timely intervention does worry me a bit, as I posted a little earlier.

[Chip Butty]

*Grey nods to the guards, who roughy seize karnos and waterboard him until he is gasping desperately for air. Grey barks "Confess, you piece of shit! You're scum! Confess that you're scum right now!" He nods to the guards again, who attach electrodes to karnos' nutsack..*

LOL

[Chip Butty]

FWIW, I will also be glad to see GreyICE forcereplaced. I didn't say anything earlier because I thought it would be automatic given what he posted. I don't understand why the Mod wanted to go easy on him with just a warning.

[Chip Butty]

This post from Robert leapt out at me though. Silent for three days, then just latches onto the leading wagon while contributing no analysis of any kind, just a lame ref to "Persevul's case". Not saying scummy yet, but def one to keep a watch on.

Or you're just testing the waters hoping that a Robert-wagon will be launched.

You could make a similar comment about any post wherein a FOS was pointed at someone not previously under suspicion, so that's meaningless. Rather, why not give us your own read on Robert's post?

You could make a similar comment about any post wherein a FOS was pointed at someone not previously under suspicion, so that's meaningless.

Uhhhh. Right.

You're being evasive again. What's your read on Robert's lame leap onto the GreyICE bw?

[Chip Butty]

Damn! I knew I should have used Preview. Quoting fixed...

This post from Robert leapt out at me though. Silent for three days, then just latches onto the leading wagon while contributing no analysis of any kind, just a lame ref to "Persevul's case". Not saying scummy yet, but def one to keep a watch on.

Or you're just testing the waters hoping that a Robert-wagon will be launched.

You could make a similar comment about any post wherein a FOS was pointed at someone not previously under suspicion, so that's meaningless. Rather, why not give us your own read on Robert's post?

You could make a similar comment about any post wherein a FOS was pointed at someone not previously under suspicion, so that's meaningless.

Uhhhh. Right.

You're being evasive again. What's your read on Robert's lame leap onto the GreyICE bw?

[Chip Butty]

VOTE: ROBERT

I think we need to light a fire under this guy's ass to get him to play. Also, he looks scummy on account of minimal posting and aforementioned lame leap onto the GreyICE bw.

[Chip Butty]

Chip, I'll go read that game.

The game (Newbie 1704 Trees) has ended now, so I can discuss it. In that game, I raised the question of why a player called KillTheStory was being strongly Townread by a few players, and raised the possibility that it was his raw posting style including frequent dropping of the F-bomb that convinced people. When I saw Kappy attempting the same thing here (after a complete absence of that sort of thing in the other game), it leapt out at me. Together with him not letting go of the Shotty-bussed-so-hard joke and lack of any real analysis , it looked like inexperienced scum trying to look Town. Kappy was scum in that other game BTW, and I picked him on page 1. It looks to me like he (or his slot, at least) is scummy here, but that he has tried to learn from that last game.

[Chip Butty]

@SC: Nothing wrong with asking. I just wanted to know why.

Now this is probably wifom and unfair on the guy who replaced Kappy.
But from my experience, I can say that players who replace out of games by their own wish are 90% of the times scum.

That slot just went highest in my scum hit list.

I'm not sure if you count those replaced out though inactivity as replacing out by their own wish, since their inactivity could be taken as an indication of their wish not to continue? Anyhow, take a look at this game, in which Kappy and I both played: http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=66365

Altogether, six replacements from inactivity/request, and five were Town.

However, Kappy was scum in that game and got lynched Day 1. I think he found it tough going, so yeah maybe he replaced out here because of that. Something to bear in mind but not, in itself, AI.

[Chip Butty]

Chip is lousy, and up there. He seems to like the phrase dumb or scum, so I'll use it here. He's leaning the latter. What's the point of voting someone who is barely posting? Get them to post more? It's not going to work. It's a lazy vote, and he's opting our of real discussion to park a vote on a guy who probably won't post much due to time contraints.

Does that make Robert town? Nah. Parking a vote on a buddy like that is super weak. They don't get lynched from pressure votes. If they do get lynched they're free town cred. Distancing. Or just going after weak town.

As I understand it, scum often tries to glide through under the radar by posting minimally. That minimizes the chance of them making a slip, and limits the number of associations with other players, making them harder to read. I'm not committed to lynching the guy by a long shot, but I

am

hoping we can get some votes on him and compel him to play the game more. If he looks scummy we can go ahead and lynch; if he looks Town, we can back off. We have oodles of time to do it - Days last two weeks, remember.

Also, if he is Town, we need him to contribute, not just be a dead weight. If he truly doesn't have time to play, he ought to request to replace out; staying in the game means making a commitment to contribute adequately.

Robert's entire ISO so far:

Hey everyone!

Vote: Kappy

Oops sorry guys. Don't have much time right now but Persivul's case is pretty convincing so far.

Vote: GreyICE

Take a look and tell me that you are confident he is Town. And if you are not confident he is Town, why not pressure him a while? You don't even need to bother with that WIFOMy stuff about my motives. If he is scum and we lynch him, it is a Day 1 scum lynch, which can't be sneezed at. And like I said, if you think he looks Town after he posts more, you can withdraw your vote.

Others I could vote ATM: Kappy, Anen.

[Chip Butty]

*I meant sickofit of course, not Kappy ^

[Chip Butty]

I'll be back when GreyICE leaves

Only a matter of time, I think. Sounds like the Mod has already agreed to replace him.

Upon reconsideration, l will be forcesubbing GreyICE. Not yet, though. I need some sleep.

[Chip Butty]

No, you're getting replaced because of your unacceptably vicious, abusive, and personal attack on another player.

BTW, extreme aggression, lack of empathy for others, lack of shame, and a persistent refusal to accept responsibility for one's wrongdoings are all traits of the psychopath. Just sayin'

[Chip Butty]

And actually, I agree with Persivul and Shotty: You, GreyICE, have sucked all the fun out of this game.

[Chip Butty]

No, you're getting replaced because of your unacceptably vicious, abusive, and personal attack on another player.

BTW, extreme aggression, lack of empathy for others, lack of shame, and a persistent refusal to accept responsibility for one's wrongdoings are all traits of the psychopath. Just sayin'

This is too far, and just as bad of a personal attack, be it passive or not. Stop.

No, that's just silly. Saying that someone is displaying psychpathic traits is not to say they are a psychopath, and even if it was, it is not nearly on the same level as what GreyICE said to karnos. Go back and ISO his attack: you'll see what I mean. Besides, those really are traits of psychopathy.

[Chip Butty]

Ultimately reasonableness will prevail, I think. That's what Mods are for. This MOd was inclined to let you off with a warning, so I think someone would have to done something pretty extreme (as you have) to get forcereplaced for abuse. Really, go back and read what you said to karnos. I hope you will be moved to apologize.

[Chip Butty]

Oh, and "dumb or scum" is a legitimate Mafia expression. I can't claim to have invented it.

[Chip Butty]

Well, I'm looking forward to this getting resolved, so we can start playing Mafia again...

[Chip Butty]

Oh Gosh. Sorry about that. I have him as a town read. He Ghana done anything that seems very scummy to me.

And I have?

Shotty, Sick's list goes from "perceived most scummy" to "perceived least scummy", so the lower down the list you are, the more he likes you.

[Chip Butty]

nope this is what it would look like.

In post 278, Sickofit1138 wrote:
1. Karnos

Not sure yet. In one early game on another site, I posted a lot of defensive expanatory stuff like he does, so I understand where he is coming from. Oh, wait - i was scum in that game.

2. Chip Buddy

LOL

3. Texcat

Later

4. Ranger

Her rankings aren't too far apart from mine, though there are some discrepancies (will post those elsewhere). However, I would expect that scum!Ranger would post mostly credible rankings in order to establish credibility, and then try to sneak in a buddy near the top, or a Town victim near the bottom. Perceived anomalies, if any, will tell the story I think. Put pressure on those. For now, neutral.

5. Robert

Have commented elsewhere

6. GreyICE

Whenever I see a posting style that's way off the curve, I am a little suspicious that it is a show put on to look Townish because a lot of people assume scum won't want to draw attention to themselves. WIll wait for the replacement before deciding. Maybe isolated karnos as a perceived easy mislynch, like a leopard targetting a wounded gazelle. Which in turn makes me more suspicious of Kappy/Sick, as the Kappy incarnation looked like the easiest mislynch of all - unless it isn't a mislynch.

7. Shadow Step

ISoed him, not looking super-Townish ATM. Detailed read tomorrow, if I have time

8. Shotty

Mostly reading Town

10. Murdercat

Later

11 Persivul

Town, I think

11. Aneminen

Evasive. Leaning scum.

12. SirCakes

Town, I think.

13. Myself [i.e. Sick]

I'm on record as being suspicious of Kappy, so I guess that carries over a bit to the new Kappy. However,Kappy hasn't played as Town, so I don't really know how he would go. He might be one of those players who manages to look scummy regardless of their alignment. So, will try to keep an open mind, I guess.

[Chip Butty]

So much for that, then. UNVOTE:

[Chip Butty]

nope this is what it would look like.

In post 278, Sickofit1138 wrote:
1. Karnos
2. Chip Buddy
3. Texcat
4. Ranger
5. Robert
6. GreyICE
7. Shadow Step
8. Shotty
10. Murdercat
11 Percivul
11. Aneminen
12. SirCakes
13. Myself

@Ranger and Chip Buddy
I get that my predecessor made things a bit more difficult for me... But I hope to change your minds. I assure you... My win condition is town.



So a general meta gives a lurkish town!Ranger. I am moving Ranger to a null slight scum.

This contains a blatant inconsistency: You list me as your second-most scummy player (and, in a game with three scum, that means you think I am scum), then you say you hope to change my mind about your alignment. If I was scum, I would KNOW your alignment, so this slip indicates to me that you don't really think I am scummy at all, which means that you just listed me second-most scummy as a precursor to trying to mislynch me. You posted comments on several players and none on me, which you would have done if your assessment of me had changed so radically in such a short space of time.

Same with Ranger, though less glaringly so: She was fourth most scummy on your list, and you since moved her to "null slight scum". But, again, scum would KNOW your alignment, so why do you hope to change her mind? Looks like you know she isn't scum.

Doesn't add up, and given that you are in Kappy's slot, which I have been suspicious of, and that my Robert vote has gone up in smoke: VOTE: SICK

[Chip Butty]

On the topic of claiming:

Information is power in this game. It is information about everyone's alignment that enables Mafia to compete equally with Town despite a distinct numerical inferiority. The information that we Town have is our roles. We should keep that information away from Mafia as much as possible, which means claiming only when it will clearly advance Town's interests.

Docs: I believe Docs should

never

claim in this setup, even after they have completed their night of activity. No counterclaims, because the setup allows for multiple players to have the same power on the same night, so Doc counterclaims are meaningless.

Cops: Should claim when ready to announce a result and push for a lynch, OR when someone announces a claim contrary to a result they themselves obtained (i.e. counterclaim).

[Chip Butty]

Random votes do serve a purpose, as people reveal different information

depending on whether they are being voted or not, especially at L-2 or L-1.

My vote is not so random

, because I always pick the player on the top of the list, because why not?

Why not? Because you're admitting that you're using a strategy to avoid revealing information, and there's much more motivation for scum to do that than town.

How what?

Random votes serve some purpose, because people reveal information when they are being voted,

but that doesn't mean to imply that non-random votes do not also help reveal the same information.

It's just that, on page 1-2 of a new game, there isn't really much basis for anything but a random vote.

And my vote was random, I just called it "not

so

random". It's out of my control, and might just be truly random depending on what method the mod uses to decide the player list order.

I'm ISO-ing Karnos to see if there is anything of substance in the various attacks on him.

This particular attack by Persivul doesn't go anywhere, but Karnos doesn't do a good job of explaining himself. I think he is saying that random votes at the start of a game can be helpful because they might prompt a player being voted into revealing information. But he doesn't see his own vote as "random" because he always starts by voting the first player on the player list. But even votes like this are helpful in the same way "random" votes are because they are, essentially, still random.

Persevul is simply wrong to say that Karnos' strategy (voting the first player on the list) is designed to "avoid revealing information"; it's just a misreading of what karnos is (unclearly) trying to say. Voting the first player in the list in the RVS stage has exactly the same potential for eliciting information as any other "random" vote.

I'm seeing this as an honest mistake by Persivul ATM.

[Chip Butty]

VOTE: karnos
Too much discussion about random votes. Zero discussion about any of the players.

texcat raises a valid point

Meh, I discussed random votes because I was voted and told that the vote is because of my poor logic, I either respond and talk about random votes to explain the flaw in the logic used against me or I can ignore the attack and look like scum because other players won't see the flaw. Lose either way

Good response by karnos so far. He has been forced on the defensive and focussed his energies on that. Plausible, since this is still an early post.

I don't think discussion of the players holds as much value as you, I suppose.

<- This sounds weird but, in the context of the overall post, I think it is just karnos explaining his position poorly again.

You know this game does have a strategy element to it, for town.

One approach is to immediately call out a scum tell the moment you see it. This might work *if*

1: you are god-like at detecting scum and never pick wrong, and

2: you can convince all the other town to follow along with you and lynch the scum.

However, that strategy falls flat in situations where 1 or 2 above are not true., because by calling out the scum tell the scummy player immediately knows what part of his behavior to change if he wants to appear more like town. I prefer to play more passively during the early stages of the game. We potentially have 10 more days before our first lynch, what is the rush? I absolutely am making notes of which players are acting scummy and why, but the last thing I am going to do at this phase of the game is share that information and give the scum a guide to follow if they want to fool me. Instead I will wait and watch, see if a pattern emerges, and then it's a little harder for the scum to back-peddle when the scummy behavior has already been repeated multiple times.

I have some sympathy for this style of play, even though I have now come to think it is problematic because the "wait-and-watch" approach tends to draw suspicion. In Newbie 1704, I (as Town) made similar remarks but I ended u
p spending the early part of the game trying to establish Towniness, which meant I was less focussed on scum hunting than I could have been. So this looks plausible to me.I would say NAI in itself, though obviously this style of play suits Mafia. Karnos is just making things more difficult for himself here

I do think that we are far enough into the game now that karnos

really

needs to step up very soon and show us that his approach is going to help us finger scum.

[Chip Butty]

That said,

VOTE: GreyICE

Same reasons as above, and obviously I am a little biased because he is voting me! But yeah, his initial vote on me was apparently due to the fact that I didn't participate in his "lets all claim" discussion, making me think even more that he was making the suggestion simply as a trap, especially in light of the time stamps between 47 & 48, as Persivul pointed out.

This is kind of weird because it is very unclear what the "Same reasons as above" refers to, since neither karnos nor anyone else had recently voted GreyICE at that point.

@karnos: What reasons were you referring to here?

Also, I'm really not buying the whole "GreyICE was setting a trap" line - if he was, why no ga at all in the timestamps between #47 and #48? If you set a trap, you need to wait a whiles for your prey to fall into it, not spring it right away.

Also, I don't like karnos' "obviously I am a little biased" comment. Since when does someone voting you automatically make them scummy? Betrays OMGUS-y thinking even as he attempts to pre-empt accusations of OMGUS.

[Chip Butty]

Okay, now I strongly think Robert is town. There's definitely a scum among these three – either with Chip and GreyIce or I'm wrong about either (or both) of them. I simply can't imagine so many townies starting to push a lurker THAT quickly.
So no, we're not lynching Robert.

Uh, it's already been pointed out by Ranger that Robert is replacing out, and I've already unvoted him. Try to keep up, m'kay?

[Chip Butty]

I don't like these posts. Seems like Karnos is happy to sit around and let other people scum hunt instead of him...

Why don't you like that? Do you think a scum would prefer to let others scum hunt, or take lead and push a wagon on someone the scum knows is town?

I don't think I am unique in that I'm fallible. I make mistakes. I misread, especially on day one. Rather than try to push a lynch on someone who I only have a slight hunch of being scum, I am voting for someone who I think may be scum

and others have already made a clear case against

. Doesn't that not make sense?

Basically I am going by the theory that while my hunch might be wrong, it's much less likely that me, persivul, aneninen have all read grey wrong in the same way, it's much less likely.

Ugh! This is hard work. I think I am going to look at karnos' other games for some meta data before continuing, but haven't got time now.

Murdercat is right to point out that karnos is STILL not scum hunting. I can see why people are becoming suspicious by this point. But I also find it plausible that he just has some mistaken ideas about how to play the early game, ideas I myself once held. I'll reserve judgement for now, until I've checked out his other games.

[Chip Butty]

SETUP

This game’s setup is Diffusion of Power, found here: http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?tit ... n_of_Power. You should read through the setup and make sure you understand it.

The Mafia have daytalk.

And this sounds like a scumbuddy talking to another.

Mafia have daytalk. No need for them to try to communicate in public. Try to keep up, m'kay?

[Chip Butty]

Uh, it's already been pointed out by Ranger that Robert is replacing out, and I've already unvoted him. Try to keep up, m'kay?

I think it was obvious that I had been catching-up.

Read through to the end first. Then go back and make comments. Otherwise you will clutter the thread with obsolete and mistaken opinions, as you have here. Also, posting-as-you-skim creates the impression you are leaping to conclusions, and not spending any time thinking before posting.

You're trying to make out things out of nothings all the time.

LOL. Pot. Kettle. Black.

[Chip Butty]

Where the enchanted forest did 316 come from?

#316 was my post on claiming strategy. Do you disagree with any specific comments I made there? I'm more than happy to debate the issue.

[Chip Butty]

FWIW, I will also be glad to see GreyICE forcereplaced. I didn't say anything earlier because I thought it would be automatic given what he posted. I don't understand why the Mod wanted to go easy on him with just a warning.

And that was an unnecessary comment.
It gave me the feeling that you're scum.

And I get the feeling that ANYTHING I say will give you the feeling I am scum. That is, if you are Town, which I have already said I have my doubts about.

You're being evasive again. What's your read on Robert's lame leap onto the GreyICE bw?

That was terrible and I've seen lurk-scums doing that before. But he's not my strongest scumread right now.

You are still evading. Please comment on Robert's leap onto the GreyICE bw? It is still relevant even if both players are out of the game.

Also, would you mind posting in a different format? It's hard to find your content if you post it like you've had this one.

Can you be more specific?

VOTE: ROBERT

I think we need to light a fire under this guy's ass to get him to play. Also, he looks scummy on account of minimal posting and aforementioned lame leap onto the GreyICE bw.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: ChipButty
If GeryIce's scum, you're trying to move votes away from him. If he's not, you're trying to keep your hands clean and not to get enemies.

Yeah, I called his posting style "psychopathic". Way not to make enemies. LOL.

I know it sounds like a Regardless of Card, but I can imagine you being scum in both cases.

I'm not sure if you count those replaced out though inactivity as replacing out by their own wish, since their inactivity could be taken as an indication of their wish not to continue? Anyhow, take a look at this game, in which Kappy and I both played: http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=66365

Altogether, six replacements from inactivity/request, and five were Town.

However, Kappy was scum in that game and got lynched Day 1. I think he found it tough going, so yeah maybe he replaced out here because of that. Something to bear in mind but not, in itself, AI.

Fence-sitting a safe topic. Good. My read on you has been strengthened.

No fence-sitting. I've expressed suspicion of Kappy/Sick. I just don't find his request to replace out particularly AI.

[Chip Butty]

You're being evasive again. What's your read on Robert's lame leap onto the GreyICE bw?

That was terrible and I've seen lurk-scums doing that before. But he's not my strongest scumread right now.

You are still evading. Please comment on Robert's leap onto the GreyICE bw? It is still relevant even if both players are out of the game.

Whoops! Misread Anen's reply here. I thought he was saying my post was terrible. Okay, you've answered the question, thanks.

[Chip Butty]

This entire post comes from a scum mind set. If docs don't claim and we all are either a cop or a doc, wouldn't not claiming be the same as claiming doc? The only reason to say this is to set up fake claims for scum
VOTE: chip

HUH??? Did you even think about that for even a second? Read my post again. It's the most conservative claiming strategy that can work given this setup. I DID NOT say "Cops claim, Docs don't claim" as you seem to imply. I said Cops also only claim when ready to roll with a result.

For example: Cop N1 investigates X on N1 and finds him scum. D2 he announces "Hey, I'm Cop N1 and I investigated X and he is scum!" Then scum have to decide if they will risk a counterclaim.

Example 2: Cop N1 investigates X on N1 and finds him scum. D2, Scum announces "Hey, I'm Cop N1 and I investigated X and he is Town!" Cop N1 then counterclaims, calling Scum a liar. By not early claiming, Town forces scum to take risks if they are going to fakeclaim.

[Chip Butty]

Shotty, you need to think about this. The more conservative our claiming strategy, the more risks scum have to take in fakeclaiming. Remember, they don't know which nights we have cops/docs and how many on each night.

It's the exact opposite of what you have said: The more we early claim the easier it is for scum to fakeclaim

I'm going to be charitable and read this as dumb for now, but if you persist with this you will be on my scum list for sure.

[Chip Butty]

Where the enchanted forest did 316 come from?

#316 was my post on claiming strategy. Do you disagree with any specific comments I made there? I'm more than happy to debate the issue.

It's weird that you waited that long with a post about claiming. That had been discussed much earlier. Why hadn't you posted your opinion

then

?

You know, your problem is that your thinking is HEAVILY dominated by WIFOM. The question you need to address here first is: Is that a Townish strategy, or not? If you think it is not, say why.

For the record, though, I didn't post a detailed claiming strategy for this setup earlier because I had not yet thought it out until just before I posted. My gut told me mc would be bad, and I DID come out against mc earlier. There didn't seem to be any urgency surrounding the claim issue, since it had died down for the time being, and nobody had claimed.

[Chip Butty]

Lol, please. Mafia need to 'change their mind' with the game as well.

Wait...<pauses to massage his own temples for a moment>...Are you...are you saying you think I am scum (and therefore KNOW your alignment), but you hope to get me to "change my mind" about you - i.e.

pretend

to change my mind about you? Because that doesn't make sense.

If not this, then what ARE you saying?

[Chip Butty]

I don't see coming up with a Townish strategy for claiming as alignment indicative.

Sure, but my point to Anen was that he needs to make substantial criticisms rather than all the WIFOM he indulges in. Excessive WIFOM is what you do when you are scum and don't have substantial criticisms to make of the players you want to lynch. That's why I challenged him to criticize my claiming strategy.

[Chip Butty]

nope this is what it would look like.

In post 278, Sickofit1138 wrote:
1. Karnos
2. Chip Buddy
3. Texcat
4. Ranger
5. Robert
6. GreyICE
7. Shadow Step
8. Shotty
10. Murdercat
11 Percivul
11. Aneminen
12. SirCakes
13. Myself

@Ranger and Chip Buddy
I get that my predecessor made things a bit more difficult for me... But I hope to change your minds. I assure you... My win condition is town.



So a general meta gives a lurkish town!Ranger. I am moving Ranger to a null slight scum.

This contains a blatant inconsistency: You list me as your second-most scummy player (and, in a game with three scum, that means you think I am scum), then you say you hope to change my mind about your alignment. If I was scum, I would KNOW your alignment, so this slip indicates to me that you don't really think I am scummy at all, which means that you just listed me second-most scummy as a precursor to trying to mislynch me. You posted comments on several players and none on me, which you would have done if your assessment of me had changed so radically in such a short space of time.

Same with Ranger, though less glaringly so: She was fourth most scummy on your list, and you since moved her to "null slight scum". But, again, scum would KNOW your alignment, so why do you hope to change her mind? Looks like you know she isn't scum.

Doesn't add up, and given that you are in Kappy's slot, which I have been suspicious of, and that my Robert vote has gone up in smoke: VOTE: SICK

Lol, please. Mafia need to 'change their mind' with the game as well. i for one, am almost never convinced 100% that someone is cum

On day one

but yknow thats just me.

and btw you dont need to come up with poor excuses to hop onto several different wagons, it makes it even more suspicios.

Lol, please. Mafia need to 'change their mind' with the game as well.

Wait...<pauses to massage his own temples for a moment>...Are you...are you saying you think I am scum (and therefore KNOW your alignment), but you hope to get me to "change my mind" about you - i.e.

pretend

to change my mind about you? Because that doesn't make sense.

If not this, then what ARE you saying?

Im saying that if i get the town to read me as town, maf will likely follow suit. Not that complicated.

Uh uh uh, not so fast. You addressed your statement in #312 specifically to Ranger and me. You said you hoped to change our minds (so that we would consider you Town). But you also listed us among your scum picks. Now you say you meant "if i get the town to read me as town, maf will likely follow suit", which is...uh...different to what you said before. Can you stop squirming on the hook long enough to explain that clearly?

[Chip Butty]

Docs: I believe Docs should never claim in this setup, even after they have completed their night of activity.

Not quite.

If there's a night with no kills, a doctor for that night should claim their protection target. Obviously, there would be the slight risk scum chose to no-kill and hope they got saved, "clearing" scum, but we'd cross that bridge if we came to it, and they'd have to have some massive guts in order to pull this off: sheer probability would dictate a protection would be on town, and every night they choose not to nightkill is a chance for an extra day (via a legitimate doc save later), not to mention, every time they choose not to off a player, they're letting a cop (who could investigate them) live. Ergo, most likely, if a doctor protects someone and there's no kill that night, the person they protected is PROBABLY town.

Yeah, that sounds reasonable. The other exception I thought of is "extreme duress": at L -1 and under intent to hammer - best to claim rather than get lynched.

[Chip Butty]

{Persivul, karnos, Chip Butty, Murdercat, Robert E Me}
{drmyshottyizsik, SirCakez}
{Shadow_step}
{texcat}
{Aneninen}
{Sickofit, Psyche}
Updated reads.

I'm in broad agreement but why Robert/Kop on the first tier? I get that his absence looks innocent now, but the first tier? Wouldn't somewhere in the lower-middle be more appropriate, given that his two posts were a naked RVS vote and a slightly spurious almost-naked vote?

[Chip Butty]

As a newbie, I found myself sometimes responding to a post before reading the entire thread. I could see a newbie falling for his trap in #47 and posting his role before reading #48. And hell, even #48 is flat-out wrong as well, as it says "we know the setup", when it should say "scum knows the setup", all in all a newbie could be confused and think that the winning strategy is to claim roles. I'm glad it didn't happen, but the attempt sure looks scummy to me. And why make post #48 at all? Because if he didn't, it would be scummy as hell, and instead of arguing about how scummy it is we would have just lynched him by now.

Do you see texcat as being implicated on account of her #49, which enabled #50?

[Chip Butty]

I have. He who has ears to hear let then hear. Chip. I am not scum. Also, I mentioned earlier that I did a meta of ranger and moved

him

to null scum. Do try to pay attention please

Yes, I saw that, and I interpreted "null scum" to mean "leaning scum", which is still a scumread. You're beig evasive here and not addressing my concerns, and that doesn't make you look any Townier in my eyes. Also, hint: You can say "I am not scum" until you are blue in the face, but do you really think that is going to cut it? Question: Is this your first time as scum? Because your defense smacks of inexperience.

Oh, and speaking of paying attention, Ranger is a "her".

[Chip Butty]

i cant do this why did i do this

Quit the snivelling and give us reads on someone other than texcat. Your ISO looks really terrible, especially this last string of posts. I was on the fence a bit with GreyICE but since you have taken over, the slot looks way scummier.

Ranger is right about your big "GreyICE was a dick" speech. We're not so dumb that we are going to be blinded by personality issues - we understand the difference between the slot and the player. To me, your speech looked calculated, and not in a Towny way. If you were Town, you would just get on with the job of reading players but, apart from texcat, you've dodged that because apparently it's just too much hard work. Well, you knew that was what was required before you replaced in, right?

Also, I usually interpret snivelling as a scumread. I'm looking at you too, karnos.

[Chip Butty]

*as a scumtell

[Chip Butty]

{Ranger, Cakez}
{Persivul}
{MURDERCAT, Shotty}
{Karnos, texcat, Shadow, Robert}
{Anen}
{Psyche}
{Sick}

[Chip Butty]

I'm in broad agreement but why Robert/Kop on the first tier? I get that his absence looks innocent now, but the first tier? Wouldn't somewhere in the lower-middle be more appropriate, given that his two posts were a naked RVS vote and a slightly spurious almost-naked vote?

I saw the town motivation behind those posts. I would have preferred there be more, and I would have preferred he handle them differently, but the posts he made were more town than scum. When combined with my dislike for the wagon on him, and how my scumreads have interacted with him (all of my scumreads have interacted with him in a way that suggests "not scumbuddy"), he just feels

right

as being town.

I have to disagree with some of this. I agree that, with votes on Kappy/Sick and Grey/Psyche, he seemed to be voting likely scum, which does look Townish. But I think his input was far too minimal to get a "feel" for him. Two casual votes could just as easily be scum trying to distance themselves from their buddies. That's why the slot is neutral-ish for me ATM.

[Chip Butty]

It's time to take this game seriously guys you can't just sheep onto psyche or my wagon. Unless you have legit reasoning of course.

So if we have legit reasoning, it's okay for us to sheep onto yours and Psyche's wagons? That sounds like an admission that it is possible for us to have legit reasoning to me - i.e. that there are legit reasons in the thread content to vote each of you guys.

[Chip Butty]

@Mod
So say I'm a N6 doctor and I get killed/lynched, what my flip look like?

"

Mafia Goon

"

From the DoP setup: 'Cops and Doctors flip only as "Town Cop" or "Town Doctor". '

[Chip Butty]

VOTE: Chip Butty

I'm not allowed to say why, but he knows why.

VOTE: Kappy

for OMGUS voting, and also I KNOW he is scum, though I also am not allowed to say why.

Seriously, what are the chances of me being scum after...?

Before I forget: I've been meaning to post this for a while.

Kappy is making a veiled reference to the other game in which we both played, in which he was scum. So, he is suggesting it is unlikely he would be scum in both games.

But, of course, his chances of being scum in this game are 3/13, exactly the same as for everyone else. It might be that Kappy just has an abysmal understanding of the laws of probability, but even so, this kind of appeal doesn't sit right with me, and actually made me suspicious of him (my initial vote on him was just a joke).

[Chip Butty]

If I was scum running a gambit... Then when I self hammered... I would how up as scum.

The sheer depth of your insight here is breathtaking.

BTW: Is self-voting allowed in this game?

[Chip Butty]

Thanks MC. It was disallowed on the site where I played some earlier games.

[Chip Butty]

Persevul is simply wrong to say that Karnos' strategy (voting the first player on the list) is designed to "avoid revealing information"; it's just a misreading of what karnos is (unclearly) trying to say. Voting the first player in the list in the RVS stage has exactly the same potential for eliciting information as any other "random" vote.

Incorrect. There's some confusion in this thread regarding RVS. Despite it standing for RANDOM voting stage, part of the idea is that they're NOT REALLY RANDOM - people may unconcsiously reveal information in who they select for their RVS vote, and in how they say it. Since you put random in quotation marks, you seem to understand that. So, if someone really does use a random method in RVS, they're doing so to avoid revealing information.

What about those who joined in the "Shotty bussed so hard" joke, including yourself? Isn't that also potentially a way of hiding information, and therefore potentially scummy?

[Chip Butty]

um... probably because im being atacked for something i missed.

I think your loss of confidence has something to do with the fact that you have gone from

"I'm such a GENIUS that I've worked out how to break this ESTABLISHED SETUP on N1, even though nobody who has ever played it before has managed to do that" (Hint: If it was that easy to break, it would have fallen into disuse by now)

to

"Oh golly! I missed something really basic that several other players picked up on immediately."

[Chip Butty]

BTW: Is self-voting allowed in this game?

So he apparently missed a rule. But when i miss a bit of info, i am scummy?

Well, I'M not trying to sell a sketchy scheme to "clear" myself, am I?

[Chip Butty]

um... probably because im being atacked for something i missed.

I think your loss of confidence has something to do with the fact that you have gone from

"I'm such a GENIUS that I've worked out how to break this ESTABLISHED SETUP on N1, even though nobody who has ever played it before has managed to do that" (Hint: If it was that easy to break, it would have fallen into disuse by now)

to

"Oh golly! I missed something really basic that several other players picked up on immediately."


SICKOFIT has messed up the quoting here, and conflated my post with Kop's. SICK, you should go back and fix up the quoting and re-post. And use Preview...



A rule that isn't written on the first page, is something that could be missed. Where setup specifications, is on the first page and can't be missed.

2 different examples, don't you think?

so you are saying im town?
It think you messed up.

its a different example but my point still stands that we both missed something.
self voting is never disallowed. i dont know how you couldve missed that, but i also dont know how i could have missed what i did.

[Chip Butty]

Sick, you've messed up the quoting and conflated one of my posts with one of Kop's. You should go back and fix that up and re-post. ^^

[Chip Butty]

so you are saying im town?
It think you messed up.

[/quote]

<sigh> No, the double-quotes were intended to convery that these were the gist of what you were presenting over a period of time. First, that you had broken the setup and then, after you got found out, that you had made an elementary mistake. First you were posting as if supremely confident in your own ability, and later much more humbly.

I read that as, first, you tried to pull the wool over our eyes with that sketch scheme of yours, then when everyone saw through it right away, you had to make it look like just a dumb mistake, hence the apparent loss of confidence.

[Chip Butty]

mmhmm?

i cant fix that now can i?

You can't change the original post, but you can do it over and re-post. You should do it, because it is potentially misleading by putting Kop's words in my mouth, so to speak.

[Chip Butty]

Yo, Kop.

Good to have you in this game.

The quick news here is: I'm town this time. If you have any doubt whatsoever, cop me.
We are lynching one of {Psyche, Sickofit} today. Aneninen is currently my top pick for the third, but texcat is not far behind. You're free to read the game, but know this is happening regardless of whether you do or don't.

I get the feeling you are using reverse psychology here, by confidently asking him to cop you. So that even if he is the cop he doesn't cop you.

If Ranger is scum, then her audacity is breathtaking, and the only way that that is what is happening is if she is bussing both Sick and Psyche so hard that they will be just gooey blots on the road by twilight D2. And going into D3 with (at best, from a scum perspective) 8/1 with at least 3 cops left wouldn't be attractive, even if Sick and Psyche do appear to be scum liabilities, so I don't think that is what is happening. Also, Mafia have daytalk, so whoever is in the third Mafia slot doesn't seem to be having much luck coaching these two slots. I guess, partly because they keep replacing out / getting replaced out, but also maybe because the third slot is not filled by an experienced player.

Also, I don't think Town!Ranger would stick her neck out so far unless she was

very

sure, and she seems to be a good enough player that if she is that sure, she has a decent chance of being right.

[Chip Butty]

If I was scum running a gambit... Then when I self hammered... I would how up as scum.

You weren't going to self hammer.

yes, i was

You mentioned earlier, while trying to sell that scheme of yours, that you were prepared to hammer yourself in order to get a 1:1 trade with Mafia. Well, if you flip Town, Ranger is going to look extremely scummy and prob an autolynch, so if you really are Town, you can still self-hammer and get 1:1, right? So, there's your chance to prove your sincerity about self-hammering.

[Chip Butty]

What? Why?

Because this:

If we're not lynching Psyche today, we're lynching Sickofit. No other lynches today are acceptable, and no claims they make should let them off the hook. Mkay?

I am dead serious about this, by the way.

I'm flat-out delivering an ultimatum here: sheep me or face my fury and wrath on future days. In particular, this is to SirCakez who voted karnos, but also applies to karnos, shotty, Chip Butty, and Murdercat. (texcat I'm beginning to think

could

be scum, and definitely is if I'm wrong on any of {Aneninen, GreyICE, Sickofit}, most likely Aneninen.)

I don't get reads this good that often.

But I am absolutely

DEMANDING

to be sheeped. Not asking. Demanding. Choose one of {GreyICE, Sickofit} to lynch. We're not touching anyone else today. You can prod, you can poke around, you can ask questions, you can push, go ahead and do all of this and more for names outside of them, sure, that's your prerogative. But as for the actual LYNCH, we're sheeping me today, period, end of story. Don't like it? Either cop me or kill me.

Ranger's put her neck waaaaaaay out on the line here.

[Chip Butty]

A "clear" by a claimed cop would give us pause, of course, but it would also potentially also implicate the claimed cop, even in the absence of a counterclaim.

[Chip Butty]

MC, let's just wait to hear from Sick, m'kay?

[Chip Butty]

In the meantime, please consider my posts #504-#508.

[Chip Butty]

Sick, do you think Ranger is scum trying to get you lynched? If so, self-hammer and get her on the hook. If she is scum, and you really are Town, you'll have helped Town get a 1:1 trade.

[Chip Butty]

Of course, if you're scum it means you were never sincere about self-hammering, and if you refuse to do that now when you have a chance to help Town, it will just look like you were insincere when you outlined your scheme to break the setup, ergo scum.

[Chip Butty]

If your test sets up a situation where the person you are testing is wrong either way it's a shitty fucking test. Self hammering as town never helps town. It ends discussion, removes a vote you can analyze from the wagon, and makes it impossible to lynch scum that day.

<sigh> The point is that Sick is NOT Town. He isn't going to self-hammer because he is scum. I'm just throwing his self-hammer BS back in his face, okay? Like I said back in #504, there is no way Scum!Ranger is going to stick her neck out so far to lynch Town!Sick, and I doubt that Town!Ranger would stick her neck out if she wasn't sure. Happy?

[Chip Butty]

Oh and @Chip my point is if he is town he shouldn't self hammer so you saying him not self hammering means he's scum is wrong.

Look, he said he wanted to self-hammer if it would get Town a 1:1 trade, right? So, he has a chance to do it now if he thinks Ranger is scum. So, let's see if he was being sincere, or was just BS-ing us with that talk about self-hammer. Get it now?

The self-hammer has very little bearing anyway, since he is very likely to get hammered regardless.

[Chip Butty]

Was für eine Menge of fucking new posts?
!.

I don't want to take advantage of you inebriety but...um...are you scum? You can tell me, and it'll remain our little secret. You can even say it behind spoilers so the others can't see.

[Chip Butty]

Is anyone else sane here? I'm stuck with a drunk german and two people who think self hammering as town is a good play.

Are you even fucking reading my posts? I'm not talking about Sick self-hammering as Town. I've said multiple times he is scum, and my vote is on him. Take your typing fingers off automatic ffs, and put some thought in before posting. You are missing the point.

[Chip Butty]

Fuck, no!

You'd get it if you had ever happened to get tried to get killed via magic.

Hmmm. Maybe THAT'S why I'm not getting it...

[Chip Butty]

No you are missing the point. You are saying if he were town he should self hammer to help town. That is not true. Self-hammering as town does not help town. You saying he is scum if he doesn't self hammer is wrong because if he is town he should not self hammer. If you two are so convinced ranger is scum, just vote her.

Three things you can take to the bank: Ranger is Town. Sick is scum. Subtlety (and, no doubt, irony) is wasted on you.

[Chip Butty]

Let me spell it out. If he believes Ranger is scum (which he said a couple post ago), and he thinks his self-hammer will convince people to take his reads seriously (and therefore lynch Ranger D2), then he thinks his self-hammer will bring about a 1:1 trade.

He said earlier that he is willing to self-hammer to bring about a 1:1 trade, and I am calling him on that. If he refuses to go through with it, it shows he was being insincere earlier when he said he was prepared to do that.

I can't make it any clearer, so please stahp.

[Chip Butty]

In case I need to spell it out even more:

And that insincerity would be evidence of scumminess.

[Chip Butty]

And if he's town then we lose the chance to have a successful day.

That would be the case even if he gets hammered by someone else. So, it seems you are saying we should not lynch sick today?

[Chip Butty]

He said earlier that he is willing to self-hammer to bring about a 1:1 trade, and I am calling him on that. If he refuses to go through with it, it shows he was being insincere earlier when he said he was prepared to do that.

The problem with that is if he's scum and is put to L-1, he's probably self-hammering

anyway

, to end the day.

If he's town, he's going to follow through and self-hammer; if he's scum, he's most likely still going to self-hammer. Regardless, putting him to L-1 ends the day once he self-hammers, and I'm not ready to end the day yet. We've still got a replacement to hear from, especially given it's the GreyICE/Psyche slot. I'm even more confident in that slot being scum than I am in Sickofit being scum, and therefore it is absolutely

critical

to let the day continue until we have

forced

content from that slot.

I'm not in any particular rush. So I guess the plan is to pile onto Psyche's slot, force a claim, then return to Sick?

[Chip Butty]

So I guess the plan is to pile onto Psyche's slot, force a claim, then return to Sick?

Not exactly. The plan is to force content from the Psycheslot, force claims from both Psycheslot AND Sickofit, and then we lynch whichever of them we like. In that order. Scott gives content or dies, that's step one. If he refuses, we lynch him. We get a claim from him and Sickofit. If they refuse, we lynch them.

Sounds like a plan.

[Chip Butty]

But maybe Sick can show his bona fides in the meantime by taking himself to L-1. If someone hammers and he flips Town, we take his read seriously, and look really hard at the hammerer. If he flips scum, ok we have a D1 scumlynch, and we can still interrogate Brosius D2.

BTW: Hi Brosius! Thanks for replacing in, and welcome to the game!

[Chip Butty]

Why introduce that artificial condition? If you can hammer yourself, why can't you take yourself to L-1? I'm sensing insincerity here; you don't really wanto to go through with it. You're bluffing.

Ninja'd by Sick:

Yes, it would be informative if you do somehow flip Town. And if you flip scum, okay, we nailed scum. It's all win.

[Chip Butty]

My vote is already on you. It's out of my hands, and you know it. Come on, stop evading and do it. I'm calling your bluff.

[Chip Butty]

If you are Town, scum won't dare hammer you because it would put them under the spotlight.

[Chip Butty]

@Sick: If you're scum, scum might well be tempted to bus you. Maybe that is what you are afraid of. But remember: Town or scum, Mafia is a team game.

[Chip Butty]

and i told you. i want to hammer myself. i am stubborn.

I

absolutely will not have any other way than my own.

Tch, tch, tch: there's no "I" in "T.E.A.M."

[Chip Butty]

i am leaving enough info behind for town and getting them back on the right track. Didnt you understand that?

What I understand is that the only info you are leaving behind for Town is that you were bluffing when you said you wanted to obtain a 1:1 trade for Town. So be it.

[Chip Butty]

On to Brosius, I guess. See you a bit later, Sick...

[Chip Butty]

yes i am. ive made it clear why my self hammer is pro town rather tha a random hammerer. have you not read the forum?

No you haven't. You've only said that you insist on doing things your way. But here is your chance: Pray tell, why it is so important that you self-hammer, rather than take yourself to L-1 and take a chance on someone else hammering you?

[Chip Butty]

and i told you. i want to hammer myself. i am stubborn.

I

absolutely will not have any other way than my own.

Tch, tch, tch: there's no "I" in "T.E.A.M."

you are not on my team.

I agree. So, if someone reads me as Town, you are saying they should then autoread you as scum? I'm fine with that.

[Chip Butty]

right but when:

Ranger wrote:
If we're not lynching Psyche today, we're lynching Sickofit. No other lynches today are acceptable, and no claims they make should let them off the hook. Mkay?
I am dead serious about this, by the way.

I'm flat-out delivering an ultimatum here: sheep me or face my fury and wrath on future days. In particular, this is to SirCakez who voted karnos, but also applies to karnos, shotty, Chip Butty, and Murdercat. (texcat I'm beginning to think could be scum, and definitely is if I'm wrong on any of {Aneninen, GreyICE, Sickofit}, most likely Aneninen.)

I don't get reads this good that often.

But I am absolutely DEMANDING to be sheeped. Not asking. Demanding. Choose one of {GreyICE, Sickofit} to lynch. We're not touching anyone else today. You can prod, you can poke around, you can ask questions, you can push, go ahead and do all of this and more for names outside of them, sure, that's your prerogative. But as for the actual LYNCH, we're sheeping me today, period, end of story. Don't like it? Either cop me or kill me.

its totally town. right.

I love how chip just sidesteps my quote. Doesn't even attempt to answer it.

Okay. If I understand you correctly, you are asking why I read you as scum when you demand to get your own way, but I don't read Ranger as scum when SHE demands to get her own way? Is that right?

First, read my #504 for why I don't think Ranger can be scum and pushing you this hard as Town or bussing you as scum. So, Ranger is in the clear as far as I am concerned.

Second, it is not the demand to get one's own way, in itself, that I find scummy, but rather the intent I perceive behind that demand. As a corollary to the content in #504, I read Ranger's demand as that of someone who is so incredibly certain of her reads on you and Psyche (now Scott) that she is willing to stick her neck out that far to get a lynch. In your case, I read it as an attempt to squirm out of your bluff-offer to arrange a 1:1 trade for Town. If you were serious about that, it would not matter to you whether you took yourself to L-1 or self-hammered, because it doesn't make any difference to the chances of getting that 1:1 for Town.

If you were a Newb, I would perhaps have been willing to entertain the thought that you are just playing the slot in a very inexperienced way, but you insist (vehemently) that you are no Newb, so I guess that isn't it...

[Chip Butty]

Throwing it out here, my wild guess for our 3 scum is Sickofit1138, SirCakez, & Scott Brosius

Probably wrong, but that is where my thinking sits currently.

Why Cakez?

[Chip Butty]

So you think I'm scum
And you think I'll self hammer.
As scum.
Seems legit.

This is just my fourth game, and the first in which the issue of self-hammer has come up, so I have been struggling a bit with the idea of scum self-hammering. My initial thought was 'Why would scum ever self-hammer?'

In the light of Ranger's suggestion that Town now move on to trying to get content and a claim from Scott rather than lynch you right away, I conclude that the reason scum might sometimes self-hammer (and thus end the day) is precisely to stop Town (at least temporarily) harvesting content from their scum-mates. So, yeah, you might self-hammer as scum.

I no longer care about your self-hammer issue. I just wanted to show that you were bluffing, and insincere with your offer to arrange a 1:1 trade, and I have accomplished that. We don't need you to to self-hammer, or take yourself to L-1, or anything else, because your time will come soon enough, with or without your active participation.

[Chip Butty]

Looks like twilight is on the way. If there is a N1 Cop, I welcome being investigated.

[Chip Butty]

I said "twilight is on the way". How is that ignoring what happened? And yeah, I think you are telling the truth about self-hammering now because I can see your vote.

[Chip Butty]

If you really are N3 Cop, then self-hammering was just terrible. And that gambit you tried was just as terrible. Hell, your whole game has been terrible. Don't try to blame anyone else for your self-hammerl; you are the one who suggested it in the first place.

[Chip Butty]

I had said that I I got out at L1 I would self hammer. You brought it upon yourself

I didn't want to self hammer,

In m experience, a self hammer stumps scum in conversation and makes it easier to find them.

So, in #650 you imply your self-hammer was a bad thing for Town ("You brought it on yourself"). And in #653 you say you didn't want to self-hammer (Guess what? Nobody forced you to do that. You could have waited to be hammered, and kept defending yourself - you could have redeemed yourself, perhaps, by giving us decent reads on other players, esp. Psyche/Scott). But by #659 you are saying that self-hammering is useful. Either you are scum or you are very confused.

I'll be glad to see an end to your BS, because I am "sick-of-it".

[Chip Butty]

VOTE: sickofit

Plz explain your vote on me plz don't just sheep.

What is our read list?

See this is what I called a slip, now re reading it I guess he could have just meant your not our, but still.

Shotty, that looks pretty weak to vote on. What was the other slip?

And why did you take Sick to L-1 when he said he would self-hammer if that happened? Did you not get that some of us wanted to question Scott before dayend? What was the rush?

You're def a scumread for me now, regardless of how Sick flips.

[Chip Butty]

Also, looks like you're trying to distance yourself from your vote now ^^

[Chip Butty]

MC's urging of Town!Sick not to self-hammer looked genuine to me, so I think Town.

During the night I checked some of Karnos' games. He does vote the first player on the playlist in each game, both as Town and as scum, except one where he mentioned it but chose the second player for some reason I can't recall right now. Looks legit though. I'm not quite sure I can pick his Town game from his scum game yet, though, so neutral for now.

Shotty looks really scummy after that awful vote. He's an experienced player and even mods, so I don't see him taking the risk on Sick like that out of naivety. Looks like he just wanted to get the day ended.

Was starting to think Anen might be Town, but Shotty's endorsement has put paid to that.

What do people think: DId Sick play against wincon? It looks that way to me. How could he possibly have thought that was good for Town? Did he really think it would make people take his reads more seriously?

Ninja'd by Persivul: Nice pick-up...

[Chip Butty]

Regardless of shotty's alignment, Aneninen is less likely to be scum.

Yeah, you're right. I'm not thinking clearly right now. Tired, many hours online today.

Nice pick-up.

[Chip Butty]

Claiming Night 1 Cop

Anem is town doctor.

mod, are you giving cops role as well as alignment?

No.

It strikes me that, if the Mod had slipped up, the smart play from Shotty would have been to keep the extra info under his hat and only claimed that Anen was Town. Also, that this is what the Mod would have required him to do, once it was brought to his attention, as Shotty says he did. And if the last was the case, the Mod will Modkill him for disobeying instructions. So I think Shotty is lying.

Shotty
BUSTED SO HARD!

[Chip Butty]

Although I don't really know if the Mod would have been okay with Shotty having secret extra info, so maybe not. I think the crucial question is, what would the Mod have done if confronted with a slip like this? End the game, perhaps? But just saying "Carry on"? Sounds unlikely...

[Chip Butty]

If the mod doesn't say something I will post them.

Shotty, you've been playing long enough to know it is just a game, right? We've had enough fuckwit behavior (from Sick) for one game, so stop this talk about posting comms from the Mod, m'kay?

Answer us this: If the Mod wasn't concerned, why didn't you just claim Anen is Town? And kept the fact that you knew he was Cop under your hat?

Alternatively, why didn't you announce the Moderr at the start of day, instead of when you were caught out?

[Chip Butty]

Anyone has a theory to why texcat was killed? Probably be wifom anyway, but I would like to listen to some thoughts on this.

Yeah, presumably because scum thought the likelier targets would be protected. But, while it is regrettable that we got a NK, I wasn't too upset to see it was texcat, since she was still on my suspect list.

[Chip Butty]

Ranger, I recall the plan, prior to Sick's self-hammer, was to go on and question Scott. so, maybe we should be laying down some questions for him?

[Chip Butty]

Ranger, can you explain why you think I am a candidate for third scum? I'm more than happy to address any questions you (or anyone else) has about anything I have posted.

[Chip Butty]

Regardless of Shotty's alignment? Are you serious!

Because if Shotty is Town, he is telling the truth about his investigation of Anen. And if Shotty is scum, he is trying to set up Anen in the event that Shotty gets killed, which was looking likely given his awful vote on D1.

More of a concern is that Scott just seems to be copying a view ranger already expressed.

[Chip Butty]

Ranger, can you explain why you think I am a candidate for third scum?

Interactions, mostly.
You had shotty as pretty town the whole game. (I know, pot kettle black, but I

do

have to keep it under consideration.) You defended GreyICE(Scott Brosius's slot) as "dumb" rather than scum. You even defended him against Aneninen's attack. When momentum built on GreyICE, you were the driving force behind diverting attention onto the Robert/Kop slot. While Psyche became a scumread of yours later, you were among the ones who chose to pressure Sickofit instead of Psyche. You were also goading Sickofit, as if to get that lynch to go through. This list from GreyICE:

Bank 2 of Karnos, Chip, Kappy.

Is likely to contain one scumbuddy, and like it or not, you're in the running with karnos for being it. There's also this gem which ties all three of you together:

As for that Chippy, Shotty doesn't like your posts either.

All-in-all, your interactions fit as being scum, and then there's also how much on-the-fence posting you've done.

All those are valid concerns to have. We are in D2, so not much is certain at this point. Some comments:

Yes, I did see Shotty as Townish through most of the day. Did anyone read him as scum? I'm too lazy to go look right now.

All the Grey/Psyche/Scott-related stuff is predicated upon that slot actually being scum (and it might well be). But yes, Anen looked scummy to me, so I was suspicious of his attack on Grey. I thought Grey was likely just trying to divert attention.

If G/P/S IS scum, then yes that list of three IS likely to include a scumbuddy, and Kappy is out of contention. Obviously I am going to point at karnos there, but it is too early for that yet - first we need to establish Scott's alignment. Grey's attack on karnos was so over-the-top though, that maybe it was the ultimate attempt to "create distance"?

Yes, I did start the wagon on Robert, but as soon as he requested replacement I moved on. Prob it did suck air from the Grey wagon but that wasn't the intention.

By the time that Sick self-hammered, I had already agreed with you that we should move on to questioning Scott. I did goad Sick, because I thought he was scum and I wanted to show that he was insincere about his offer to self-hammer. I never dreamt he would self-hammer as Town. Even if I was scum, I wouldn't have expected him to do that.

That final quote - I'll have to go back and look at the context of that. Same with fence-sitting. I think I have taken some pretty definite stances - Anen, Kappy/Sick, Psyche (eventually) on the scum side - you, Cakes, Persivul and, yes, Shotty on the Town side. karnos has been my main fence-sit. But maybe if I ISO myself I'll see that I have sat on the fence more than I have been aware of.

[Chip Butty]

*para 3: I thought

Anen

was just trying to divert attention

[Chip Butty]

Overnight, I was thinking scum woul likely be among: Scott, shotty, Anen, texcat.

The first two are still looking like scum. I'm going to do ISOs on karnos and Shadow, and look more at karnos' meta.

[Chip Butty]

Chip is lousy, and up there. He seems to like the phrase dumb or scum, so I'll use it here. He's leaning the latter. What's the point of voting someone who is barely posting? Get them to post more? It's not going to work. It's a lazy vote, and he's opting our of real discussion to park a vote on a guy who probably won't post much due to time contraints.

Does that make Robert town? Nah. Parking a vote on a buddy like that is super weak. They don't get lynched from pressure votes. If they do get lynched they're free town cred. Distancing. Or just going after weak town.

As I understand it, scum often tries to glide through under the radar by posting minimally. That minimizes the chance of them making a slip, and limits the number of associations with other players, making them harder to read. I'm not committed to lynching the guy by a long shot, but I

am

hoping we can get some votes on him and compel him to play the game more. If he looks scummy we can go ahead and lynch; if he looks Town, we can back off. We have oodles of time to do it - Days last two weeks, remember.

Also, if he is Town, we need him to contribute, not just be a dead weight. If he truly doesn't have time to play, he ought to request to replace out; staying in the game means making a commitment to contribute adequately.

Robert's entire ISO so far:

Hey everyone!

Vote: Kappy

Oops sorry guys. Don't have much time right now but Persivul's case is pretty convincing so far.

Vote: GreyICE

Take a look and tell me that you are confident he is Town. And if you are not confident he is Town, why not pressure him a while? You don't even need to bother with that WIFOMy stuff about my motives. If he is scum and we lynch him, it is a Day 1 scum lynch, which can't be sneezed at. And like I said, if you think he looks Town after he posts more, you can withdraw your vote.

Others I could vote ATM: Kappy, Anen.

Sure, lurking is a top shelf scum strat. Post the minimal amount, skim under the radar, start posting only if you start to draw attention.

On the other hand there's such a thing as just not using the site. Here's all the posts Robert has made recently: http://forum.mafiascum.net/search.php?a ... 9&sr=posts

I mean there's lurker. Then there's just not here. Robert isn't a lurker, he's just not here. And voting won't suddenly cause him to log on and make a post, meaning we can assemble a wagon on him... but what's the point? To put pressure on some one by definition they have to, y'know, read the game and be on site. Which Robert really isn't. He's in another game 2, if he was posting up a storm in that game and treating this game like it was handing out cases of leprosy, lynch away. But he's not posting there either (that's not discussing ongoing games, that's discussing Robert's posting history).

So yeah,you might think he's scum. And yeah, that wagon hop is awfully convenient. But if we start a wagon on him right now, you know what's going to happen? A whole lot of nothing.

I should point out this post, wherein GreyICE does his best to hose down the Robert wagon I started. If we had a plan to divert attention away from Grey's wagon, he sure wasn't doing much to advance that plan...

[Chip Butty]

Shadow ISO:

12, 13: RVS stuff, looks legit.

26, 64,66: Questions, no scumhunting yet, and we're a couple days into the game already. Really, he needed explanation of how Ranger's ranking list worked? #13-#66 are all widely speced out, chronologically, and ONLY questions...Lurking without lurking?

80: This pings me fairly hard. Shadow ISOs texcat and accuses her of being hypocritical for voting karnos in 78 for lack of real discussion, and of looking like parking her vote, which makes HIM hypocritical for exactly the same reason when he votes texcat. We now know, of course, that the dear departed texcat was Town.

83, 86: Questions why Ranger reads texcat as Town. Twice.

95: Yet another question. Somewhat ironically perhaps, he asks: "Is making useless conversation a scum tell or something to that effect?"

205: This is another one that pinged me. sounds paranoid and guilty. Does he really need to ask why Persivul is asking Anen for his read on Shadow? Yet more questions.

241, 242: Points finger at Kappy's replacement, Sick, because "I can say that players who replace out of games by their own wish are 90% of the times scum". Votes Sick. Of course, we now know that the dear departed Sick was Town too, just like texcat.

498: After a couple days' absence, pops up to effectively accuse Ranger of being scum. The post itself is prob reasonable in its actual content.

500: Defends his stance on Kappy/Sick.

736, 737: Another days-long absence, then produces this somewhat bizarre post on the Shotty claim, where he seems to completely miss the point. The point isn't that Town!Shotty is revealing info about Anen's role, the issue is how did Shotty get that info when the Mod has stated he only gave Shotty Anen's alignment. Does some analysis and concludes most plausible theory is that Shotty is setting up Anen for lynch on D3.

747: Replies to Scott's 693, which contains the following bizarre mistake: "The first post also says texcat flipped doctor,". The flip post about textcat, which I presume Scott is referring to here, clearly said texcat was Town COP. Yet shadow doesn't pick up on this at all. More questions, including one questioning the view that Anen looks more Town regardless of Shotty's alignment. In #736, Shadow already agrees that if Shotty is scum, then he is prob framing Anen, i.e. Anen looks more Town. Why doesn't he see the blindingly obvious fact that if Shotty is Town, then he is telling the truth in his claim about Anen being Town Doc? Answer: because he is too busy asking questions to look busy to do any real thinking about the issue.

So...not looking very Town there in my opinion. In fact, if Shotty wasn't looking so very bad, I'd probably slap a vote on Shadow right now.

[Chip Butty]

Why did

texcat

die last night?

karnos, I like that you are asking these questions and thinking about it from a new angle, but why not consider the possibility that scum picked a lower-profile target to ensure no Doc save?

[Chip Butty]

BTW: If Shadow and Shotty are scum buddies, I don't think Anen comes out looking so clean after all. Their interaction could be read in a way that they are contriving to get scum!Anen cleared. Shadow's very first vote was an RVS vote on Anen...

The problem with this is where GreyICE/Psyche/Scott fits in...

[Chip Butty]

After my first readthrough, texcat seemed the most scummy. Shadow_step's case on him seemed pretty compelling! Texcat's vote for karnos seemed like a copy of greyice's. That would be okay on its own, but the way it's done feels like something pretending to be original content. Texcat's latter posts similarly seem conciliatory and deliberately

not

impactful on the course of the game. Ss's criticism back on post 82 seems just as relevant now at post 300.

vote texcat

Interesting. Psyche (now Scott) backing up Shadow's "case" on texcat. Calls Shadow's case "compelling" when it was anything but.

[Chip Butty]

Claiming Night 1 Cop

Anem is town doctor.

mod, are you giving cops role as well as alignment?

No.

That's that. I'll vote him whenever there's consensus to end the phase.

The mod is lying. Also the mod never told me to keep it under wraps, I just got a sorry if this gets you mis lynched.

This sounds like BS. If the Mod wanted to carry on, he would have told you to keep quiet about it - that would have had way less impact on the game than getting you lynched/mislynched. And, if you were Town, you should have realized you should just reveal Anen's alignment.

Maybe we should just hammer. This is having a toxic effect on the whole game...

[Chip Butty]

Okay then. So moderror flipping texcat as Doc rather than Cop. Prob best to just move on and not get too distracted by it, I guess. I think the mod should have owned up to the error rather than just sweeping it under the carpet. You need to be able to trust the mod 100%, particularly when something like the Shotty issue comes up.

[Chip Butty]

Everyone looking for my scum buddy is going to feel really stupid

Shotty, you are going about this the wrong way. In fact, if you are Town, you are making a similar mistake to Sick. Instead of stuff like this (almost identical to a Sick post), please give us detailed reads, starting with Scotty, Shadow, and Anen. No Town wants to lynch Town, so convince us by doing some useful work for Town.

Everyone else: Please don't hammer yet. We still have 13 days until deadline; there's absolutely no need to rush into hammering. In fact, it might be an idea to back off to L-2, just so scum can't hammer.

To be clear, I'm still 95% sure Shotty is scum, but I think we have enough time to indulge that other 5%. If Shotty isn't forthcoming with the requested reads in a reasonable time, we can proceed...

[Chip Butty]

Scott is on the Shotty wagon. That in itself should be cause for caution.

[Chip Butty]

It's worse than that. I just got pulled over in a company truck for no insurance, the cop then called my agent and argued with Farmers, then got mad he lost the argument, and then took the opportunity to write me a ticket for not having someone 21 or older in the car with me... I'm 23 and have a valid dl. Now I missed a meeting after being unlawfully detained for 45 minutes and then given an unlawful ticket even though he had no reason to pull me over anyway. My lawyer said it will be super easy to get out of, but now I have to go to court, and my boss wants to sue the police department for loss of production and for losing a client. Btw speeding isn't illegal in Texas, just not recommended

You should have said to the cop 'So...you're a Night 1 Cop too? Who do you think the scum is?'

[Chip Butty]

Right, page 25 convinces me of two things.
One, Scott Brosius is absolutely scum.
Two, SirCakez is almost assuredly town.

Ranger, can you say specifically what on page 25 brought you to these conclusions, especially the Scott one? It worries me a bit that, despite you insisting D1 to be sheeped on Scott or Sick, and being wrong about Sick, you have absolutely not wavered at all on Scott. I'm not necessarily disagreeing at this point, but it was only while Psyche was in the slot that I found it looking SAF, so maybe it was just a playstyle thing.

[Chip Butty]

This list from GreyICE:

Bank 2 of Karnos, Chip, Kappy.

Is likely to contain one scumbuddy, and like it or not, you're in the running with karnos for being it.

This list IS likely to contain a scum buddy, IF Grey/Psyche/Scott is scum. But the problem is that we know Kappy was Town, I'm reading karnos as Town now, and it's not me. So for me that casts doubt on G/P/S being scum.

I said earlier that, if you are scum then your audacity is breathtaking. But a part of me worries that that is exactly what is happening. Consider, we start at 10/3. If scum!you gets two Town (let's say, for the sake of argument, Sick and Scott) lynched in a way in which no mud sticks to you, and scum gets two successful NKs on N1 and N2, suddenly it is 6/3 heading into D3, and the audacious plan starts to look like a brilliant gambit...

Now this whole Shotty business is muddying the waters to will wait until we see his flip. If you ARE Town, I urge you to go over your case on G/P/S with an open mind, and see if your case still appears so strong.

Also, about Shotty: If scum, he would have been in contact with his scumbuddies N1 about the NK target at least, and it is hard for me to picture his scumbuddies advising him to claim Anen's role...

[Chip Butty]

It's mostly lazy commentary, same as what the predecessors had given,

But Grey was anything but lazy commentary. I mean, I've never seen anyone go so hard after another player as he went after karnos...

[Chip Butty]

{Persivul, karnos, Murdercat, Aneninen}
{SirCakez}
{Kop}
{Shadow_step}
{Chip Butty}
{drmyshottyizsik, Scott Brosius}
A few names in here are a bit rough, but I think this is a fair approximation of where I'm at.

It does rely on shotty being scum, and Scott being scum, but the former is something we're going to find out and the latter is basically a given regardless.

I mostly like your rankings here, except mine of course. I don't think I would have Anen that high just yet - maybe on a par with Kop? As I mentioned, I'm having some doubts about Scott. If karnos is Town, I think he must be Town too (because of the list of three from GreyICE).

[Chip Butty]

Ranger, really, go back and read Scott's 620 again. I just don't see what you say you are seeing. Scott gives def views on what were the current issues when he joined, gives alignment-reads on several players, and casts a vote. There really isn't much fence-sitting or waffle at all. I think you are either tunneling on that slot a bit as Town, or trying for a mislynch as scum (see my post above). Maybe if you were to do a blow-by-blow of #620, that would help me see exactly what you find so objectionable about it?

[Chip Butty]

It was a pity all that crap happened, because it is an interesting setup to play. Well done Cakez and Persivul. It's funny how the game started with the 'Shotty bussed so hard' joke and then that happened big time. Sick, thanks for taking the trouble to apologize in-thread.

I was a N2 Doc.

[Chip Butty]

Also, thanks to Llamafluff for sorting that out and giving us closure.

[Chip Butty]

I'm in, good idea.

[Chip Butty]

im there, but unless no one else offers, i wont do it.

Could someone please translate this into Meaningful for me?

[Chip Butty]

God help us all.