Open 640: Diffusion of Power - Mod Abandoned

[karnos]

VOTE: MURDERCAT

A cat is a terrible thing to murder.

[karnos]

More interesting to see what people are thinking
Then tell them how to think
Latter is pretty pointless anyway you'll think as you wish

Random votes do serve a purpose, as people reveal different information depending on whether they are being voted or not, especially at L-2 or L-1. My vote is not so random, because I always pick the player on the top of the list, because why not? Any one of you is equally likely to be scum from my POV, so top of the list is as good of a pick as any. Optimally it would be nice if you could wagon every single player to L-1, get a page of responses from them, and then compare notes, but that won't happen in any typical game. Still, you get a bit more information with every vote, generally, so the random early votes do help to a degree.

Wasn't really much to discuss a page into day one, but since you decided to call me out I am explaining my thinking. And see, without your (claimed) non-random vote on me, I might not have felt the need to explain my actions (or lack of).

[karnos]

rather than comment on anything in the thread.

There was nothing of value in the thread. There still might not be.

[karnos]

Random votes do serve a purpose, as people reveal different information

depending on whether they are being voted or not, especially at L-2 or L-1.

My vote is not so random

, because I always pick the player on the top of the list, because why not?

Why not? Because you're admitting that you're using a strategy to avoid revealing information, and there's much more motivation for scum to do that than town.

How what?

Random votes serve some purpose, because people reveal information when they are being voted,

but that doesn't mean to imply that non-random votes do not also help reveal the same information.

It's just that, on page 1-2 of a new game, there isn't really much basis for anything but a random vote.

And my vote was random, I just called it "not

so

random". It's out of my control, and might just be truly random depending on what method the mod uses to decide the player list order.

[karnos]

VOTE: karnos
Too much discussion about random votes. Zero discussion about any of the players.

Meh, I discussed random votes because I was voted and told that the vote is because of my poor logic, I either respond and talk about random votes to explain the flaw in the logic used against me or I can ignore the attack and look like scum because other players won't see the flaw. Lose either way

I don't think discussion of the players holds as much value as you, I suppose. You know this game does have a strategy element to it, for town.

One approach is to immediately call out a scum tell the moment you see it. This might work *if*

1: you are god-like at detecting scum and never pick wrong, and

2: you can convince all the other town to follow along with you and lynch the scum.

However, that strategy falls flat in situations where 1 or 2 above are not true., because by calling out the scum tell the scummy player immediately knows what part of his behavior to change if he wants to appear more like town. I prefer to play more passively during the early stages of the game. We potentially have 10 more days before our first lynch, what is the rush? I absolutely am making notes of which players are acting scummy and why, but the last thing I am going to do at this phase of the game is share that information and give the scum a guide to follow if they want to fool me. Instead I will wait and watch, see if a pattern emerges, and then it's a little harder for the scum to back-peddle when the scummy behavior has already been repeated multiple times.

[karnos]

That said,

VOTE: GreyICE

Same reasons as above, and obviously I am a little biased because he is voting me! But yeah, his initial vote on me was apparently due to the fact that I didn't participate in his "lets all claim" discussion, making me think even more that he was making the suggestion simply as a trap, especially in light of the time stamps between 47 & 48, as Persivul pointed out.

[karnos]

Karnos spends multiple paragraphs discussing what is scummy and what is town, adds a clause that his actions are not in fact OMGUS and that he has legitimate reasons to believe what he did, paraphrases a few things Percy says then... does the same thing.

Just saying, I think I know which one is which alignment.

You are just posting lines of summary, followed by a conclusion that doesn't follow.

Yes, I posted why I made a semi-random vote, and I posted why I am not sharing all my reads- both posts were in response to scum claims.

I see you are also making posts defending yourself from scum claims, in fact so many that you probably have more posts than anyone else in this thread.

Go ahead and call it OMGUS if you want, but it really seems like an odd argument. It's like you aren't even claiming to be town, but just that you were voting for me before I voted you so that somehow proves you aren't scum?! The logic doesn't follow. I may be new to these boards, but my impression of a true OMGUS situation is when someone counter votes when there is no other reason to vote, not like this case where there is a pretty strong argument in favor of you flipping scum.

[karnos]

I don't like these posts. Seems like Karnos is happy to sit around and let other people scum hunt instead of him...

Why don't you like that? Do you think a scum would prefer to let others scum hunt, or take lead and push a wagon on someone the scum knows is town?

I don't think I am unique in that I'm fallible. I make mistakes. I misread, especially on day one. Rather than try to push a lynch on someone who I only have a slight hunch of being scum, I am voting for someone who I think may be scum

and others have already made a clear case against

. Doesn't that not make sense?

Basically I am going by the theory that while my hunch might be wrong, it's much less likely that me, persivul, aneninen have all read grey wrong in the same way, it's much less likely.

[karnos]

Bleh. "Does that not make sense?"

[karnos]

I like how karnos shows up once again to insist that what he's doing isn't scummy at all.

Let me understand your argument.

I'm scummy because I am not scum hunting enough for you.

You aren't scummy though, because telling people to claim when that is a losing strategy isn't scummy at all?

[karnos]

Karnos, you do seem to be playing from a scum perspective. You trust other's reads, a big mistake I made once, and jump onto bandwagons. But I'm happy with my vote on Ranger, so consider yourself lucky.

No, I don't. Don't misrepresent what I wrote.

I have a couple potential scum in mind. I am voting for the one in which other reads coincide with my own.

[karnos]

Grey:

telling people to claim when that is a losing strategy

[karnos]

So you think that's what I did?

Given the time-stamps, and your joined date... yes. Evidence says that your "strategy" was just a crafted newbie trap, hoping that some would post claims before seeing your next post retracting the plan.

It's also what *else* you did. You called me scum because I did a randomish vote... which seems odd, considering many other players made random votes before me, and even some made them after me, and several of those players didn't "participate in the discussion either". I agree that hiding and posting the bare minimum is often a scummy thing to do, but on the second page of the thread it's way too soon for that sort of accusation, and seems incredibly arbitrary when you see other players doing the exact same as me.

And then you go on to refer to me as "obvscum". Really? I didn't scumhunt enough, so I'm obvscum? Look, your very first post was voting for me. You knew little to nothing about me, my only post in the thread was a random vote, much like several other players. You just decided to try to push a wagon on a newbie, and now you are tunnel-visioning me. All of your so-called scum tells on me after that point are a direct result of me defending myself- as if defending yourself is something a town player would never do.

I expect that a player with 6 years of experience would know better. The logical conclusion is that you do know better, but since you are scum pushing a wagon onto a town player isn't a bad thing.

[karnos]

Just to make it easier for the lazy, here are the relevant posts- my first post, GreyICE's posts until he pushes out the claim strategy, and Robert E Me's first post.

Spoiler: page 2 stuff

VOTE: MURDERCAT

A cat is a terrible thing to murder.

Vote: Karnos

Not random.

Hey everyone!

Vote: Kappy

Why would a poster make an effort to stay within RVS during a discussion? Is the RVS more interesting than the discussion? Or merely safer

More interesting to see what people are thinking
Then tell them how to think
Latter is pretty pointless anyway you'll think as you wish

Basically, I'm puzzled why Grey would tunnel me so hard when Robert came in and made his own random vote later in the thread. And what exactly has Grey been doing for scum hunting? Not a thing, except tunneling me because of my apparently scummy first random vote post.

[karnos]

Note that this came

after

the "incriminating post". He specifically said there wasn't much to talk about regarding setup discussion. But now he's changed his mind and it was incredibly important to discuss and part of a secret scum strategy.

I see that you are writing words that form sentences, but you don't really make a point.

There wasn't anything worth discussing.

In 72 I said "It's just that, on page 1-2 of a new game, there isn't really much basis for anything but a random vote."

In 123, I explained it further "calling out the scum tell the scummy player immediately knows what part of his behavior to change if he wants to appear more like town"

I thought most of the players would be able to put 1 & 1 together and come up with 2, but since you seem to be confused I will spell it out:

In the extreme early game (pages 1-4), I personally noted suspicious posts and potential scum tells, but didn't see any value in sharing them, because IMO telling the scum exactly what posts they need to change to look more like town is a stupid thing to do. Later, things changed because Persivul pointed out exactly the same scum tell I noticed, so at that point there was no value gained by keeping it private. In addition, other players were pressuring me because I apparently wasn't scumhunting enough for their liking, so I had to at least offer something.

Hope that helps you, and hope you flip scum

[karnos]

rather than comment on anything in the thread.

There was nothing of value in the thread. There still might not be.

Heh, forgot this one.

What a classic.

See, here you are being obtuse. "was" means paste tense, specifically that "was" referred to my very first post, which indeed was prior to your scummy post.

"There still might not be" You do understand what I meant about not telling scum why they are being read as scum, don't you? Here is a real shocker for you: if I think you are scum and I want to see if you do more scummy stuff, I might even lie to you in the thread.

[karnos]

Why don't you like that?

Do you think a scum would prefer to let others scum hunt

, or take lead and push a wagon on someone the scum knows is town?

Yes, that's

exactly

what scum prefer to do. In endgame scum don't want to be seen as the drivers of a bunch of town lynches. Classic scum play is to let town start a push, then jump on somewhere in the middle of the wagon.

Not how my last completed game played out. Scum started a lynch, pushed hard, and then actually switched votes before the hammer to divert attention away. However, town saw through it and won in the end.

I don't think scum really care. If there is an opportunistic lynch in progress, they may jump on the wagon. If there isn't, they may try to start one. If the biggest wagon is on a scum, they might try to build a competing wagon. Or they might just bus. I don't think there is a hard and fast rule about what scum do. But the fact is, scum can lynch any town and win. They don't need to hunt for a good target the way town do, they start the game knowing exactly who to lynch and kill. So while scum can switch up strategies at will and still do okay, town can't- town need to actually lynch scum, and a town that just arbitrarily picks lynch targets is possibly going to just do more harm than good, by lynching fellow town players.

That is to say, scum.karnos wouldn't care who gets lynched as long as it's not scum, and would be happy to lynch someone else to avoid OMGUS appearance. Town.karnos doesn't have that luxury, and has to vote for the most likely scum, as throwing off attention from myself by lynching another town player hurts town just as much as letting myself get lynched.


And one last point: When you say "scum never do X" or "scum always do Y" that is a good way to get scum to seriously consider doing X and/or avoid doing Y in that particular game, just to throw you off.

[karnos]

I read this as saying that you've multiple games of experience with Karnos. But a quick look at his games shows that is not the case. I don't see any games that you have in common. Is this some alt thing?

My first game was with ranger, and I am also currently playing another game, currently in progress, with ranger.

I have no idea how the forum search functionality works or doesn't work, so I have no idea why they might not be showing up for you.

[karnos]

And one last point: When

you

say "scum never do X" or "scum always do Y" that is a good way to get scum to seriously consider doing X and/or avoid doing Y in that particular game, just to throw you off.

I'm not sure who that you refers to. Did you mean a generic you, as in, when one says...? If it refers to Persivul, I don't think that's what he said at all. He talked about what scum prefer to do and classic scum play. Why do you morph that into never do and always do?

It's a generic statement to make a point, somewhat relevant to Persivul's message. I simplified it to make it readable and concise.

"When someone says "scum are unlikely to do X" or "scum are likely to do Y" then scum will become less unlikely or less likely to do X or Y in that game." - while this version would fit more with the specifics of what was said, to me sounds a lot more awkward and doesn't really get the point across.

[karnos]

I don't think I am unique in that I'm fallible. I make mistakes. I misread, especially on day one. Rather than try to push a lynch on someone who I only have a slight hunch of being scum, I am voting for someone who I think may be scum

and others have already made a clear case against

. Doesn't that not make sense?

So, Karnos is either a townie with little self-confidence or scum playing pretty well.

Basically I am going by the theory that while my hunch might be wrong, it's much less likely that me, persivul, aneninen have all read grey wrong in the same way, it's much less likely.

Wait-oh!
It sounds as if you knew our alignment!

Uh, I wouldn't say a self confidence issue. It's just plain smart play. If I have 3 players I think are potentially scum, and of those three one has 2 lynch votes and the other two have zero, why would I try to push a lynch onto one of the 0-vote potential scum? It doesn't make much sense to me.

As a careful player, even when I am very sure someone is town or scum, I am always open to the possibility that I made a error. In this case I don't think you are both scum because it would be foolish and reckless to buddy up and push a lynch. I mean, taking what persivul said at face value, scum wouldn't want to start the wagon against Grey, scum would rather join the wagon after it's gained momentum. I don't personally agree 100% with such ideas, but I do think it's very unlikely that two scum together would push a wagon together.

So yeah, I have a pretty good feeling you are either both town, or possible one town and a scum trying to act town to blend in, in which case the scum could even be bussing, so it doesn't mean the wagon is bad.

[karnos]

Oh I see, it was a clever ruse to get me to incriminate myself

You were just lying. Mmmm. Lots of lying, I see.

So Karnos, lets talk about more of your lying. You say I have not scumhunted anyone besides you. You stand behind that?

Hey Karnos, inquiring minds wish to know.

Well, first of all I don't think I ever said that. I mean, I did post a lot of crap last night when I was tired, so maybe I said something that could be read that way, but I am fairly certain I didn't use those words.

Can you just do me a favor and quote me instead of making me try to guess what post you are misrepresenting?

[karnos]

Wow, you really are obtuse.

I will spell it out, for you. Really though, is English a second language for you? Am I crazy? Is anyone else interpreting my posts the way GreyICE is?

You are completely ignoring context. I was asking why you jumped on me, when Robert did the exact same. And then I pointed out that you had been doing zero scum hunting except for tunneling on me- point being, if you are calling me scum because of my lack of scumhunting when making my first post, you are the pot calling the kettle black, because you also hadn't been doing any scumhunting at that point in the thread.

Really though, it's clear that you either have the reading comprehension of a 1st grader or you are purposely misrepresenting my posts. Don't be surprised if I ignore your questions in the future, I don't think they are useful and I don't think defending myself from you is a valuable use of my time.

[karnos]

karn walks into a room wearing a blue hat
grey is wearing a blue hat, and punches billy in the face
grey says "that is because you were wearing a blue hat!"
3 days later, grey puts on a red hat.
karn claims grey was a hypocrite, because he attacked him for wearing a blue hat while wearing a blue hat himself.
grey is like- HA! caught you in a lie! see, I am wearing a red hat now!

[karnos]

I don't want to respond, yet I feel the need to clear up some gross misrepresentation. Don't bother to read below unless you really care about GrayICE vs Karnos.

Spoiler:

Can we pause for a second and note we've caught Karnos in two obvious lies at this point?

You mean zero? You aren't as smart as you think you are.

Lets look at the facts.

I'm assuming this is your idea of lie #1:
In #175 I said I may lie to a suspected scum to see if they give the expected scummy response. Your failure to comprehend the English language somehow translated that into me admitting to a lie. Nope. Sorry buddy, I was telling you why I might lie, I wasn't excusing myself of a lie in that quote.

But, please feel free to prove me wrong. This is the lie, according to you:

"There was nothing of value in the thread.

" By all means, prove to us that there was something of value in the thread prior to my first post. And then prove that I knew about it (an accidental error isn't the same as a lie).

And if you can prove how

"there still might not be"

is an absolute lie, well then you are a wizard. It's a non-committal statement, "might" by definition means there is or there isn't, so either way it's not a lie.

Seriously, you just seem to be trolling. I'm can't take your post seriously anymore.

lie #2:
This is simply you ignoring context. Here is #170 with context:

"Just to make it easier for the lazy, here are the relevant posts- my first post, GreyICE's posts until he pushes out the claim strategy, and Robert E Me's first post.

Spoiler: page 2 stuff Show

Basically, I'm puzzled why Grey would tunnel me so hard when Robert came in and made his own random vote later in the thread. And what exactly has Grey been doing for scum hunting? Not a thing, except tunneling me because of my apparently scummy first random vote post."

Clearly, I was talking about the first 2 pages of the game. I even listed the quotes as "page 2 stuff". If you still think it's a lie, please quote yourself where you were apparently scum hunting in those first two pages, because I sure didn't see it.

[karnos]

This is unacceptable. The game isn't fun with greyice in it.

Mod, replace GreyIce or replace me. Thanks.

Slightly offtopic:

I wish you would stay in.

I'm not going to respond to Grey anymore, hopefully that puts an end to the garbage posts. The first game I read on this site was one you were in, so I was curious to see how you would play in a game I am actually participating in.

And for the record, when I read the post in question I had to double-check the site rules, because I felt like his attacks might be crossing a line, but ultimately I decided it wasn't worth reporting. I can handle it, but I agree that it has just become un-fun, so I will cease my part. If my lack of defending myself against Grey gets me lynched, so be it.

[karnos]

VOTE: ROBERT

I think we need to light a fire under this guy's ass to get him to play. Also, he looks scummy on account of minimal posting and aforementioned lame leap onto the GreyICE bw.

I actually agree. Not switching votes just yet, but he is clearly my second choice for voting right now.

[karnos]

I agree with GreyICEs case on Karnos.

Which case?

The case that I am obvscum because I did a random vote for my first post, or the the case that I'm a scum because I lied when I said nothing of value has been posted?

Just curious. I've kind of lost the urge to try to defend myself, but it would suck to see GreyIce "win" when I flip town.

Going to switch votes, because while I think GreyIce is clearly scum right now, that might just be a natural reaction to his attitude towards me. With a new player in the slot I will reconsider the possibilities.

In the meantime, I hate inactive hiding players, so I will put pressure where it's needed:

VOTE: Robert E Me

[karnos]

Psyche: That all sounds good. Of course, you would have incentive to post that as scum, just the same as town.

I am taking a wait and see approach. Of course I have already switched votes, but mainly I just want to see Robert actually post a little bit more often and offer some explanation. Depending when Robert responds and what if anything he posts, my vote may revisit you, it depends on how your posts read between now and then.

[karnos]

Umm the fact that you lied....as town? In my experience lying is not a town tool to catch scum. It's a scum tool. I feel like you coming out with it was to act like you weren't scared but it came across as very fake.

Alright. I repeat myself, but I didn't actually lie. What I said is I *might* lie. Here is the exact quote: "

if I think you are scum and I want to see if you do more scummy stuff, I might even lie to you in the thread

" Note the words

if

and

might

, I wasn't saying that I had lied, and I wasn't even saying I will lie. Depending on how the game goes it might not be a useful tool, as it happens I may never have a reason to post a lie.

I said then, and still feel the same today, is that there are certainly times where lying as town is a great thing to do. Basically I could see exactly where GreyICE's argument was going, and rather than let it drag out and bog down the whole thread, I thought I could just save everyone some time by refuting his final point, which seemed to be that a lying player is a scum player. (That idea certainly didn't work out, but that is beside the point.)

Let me ask you two very important questions.

1:Do you believe that any player who lies in the thread is clearly scum?

2:Do you believe I knowingly lied in the thread?

Please answer carefully, I may hold you to your answers.

[karnos]

I will vote Sickofit1138 once I have a chance to do a vote count to confirm I am not accidentally hammering him.

[karnos]

Thanks for the vote count.

VOTE: Sickofit1138

Still would love to see him answer my above questions.


And to respond...

This is kind of weird because it is very unclear what the "Same reasons as above" refers to, since neither karnos nor anyone else had recently voted GreyICE at that point.

@karnos: What reasons were you referring to here?

Also, I'm really not buying the whole "GreyICE was setting a trap" line - if he was, why no ga at all in the timestamps between #47 and #48? If you set a trap, you need to wait a whiles for your prey to fall into it, not spring it right away.

Also, I don't like karnos' "obviously I am a little biased" comment. Since when does someone voting you automatically make them scummy? Betrays OMGUS-y thinking even as he attempts to pre-empt accusations of OMGUS.

"reasons as above" was referring to Persivul and Aneninen's cases against GreyICE at the time. Perhaps my choice of terminology was bad, I think of "above" as anything above in the thread, I didn't mean the posts immediately prior.

As a newbie, I found myself sometimes responding to a post before reading the entire thread. I could see a newbie falling for his trap in #47 and posting his role before reading #48. And hell, even #48 is flat-out wrong as well, as it says "we know the setup", when it should say "scum knows the setup", all in all a newbie could be confused and think that the winning strategy is to claim roles. I'm glad it didn't happen, but the attempt sure looks scummy to me. And why make post #48 at all? Because if he didn't, it would be scummy as hell, and instead of arguing about how scummy it is we would have just lynched him by now.

re: OMGUS, what exactly are you complaining about? By admitting my bias, I was hoping to head-off anyone from trying to accusing me of ignoring the vote GreyICE had on me. I guess I can't win.

[karnos]

Nope. I see #49 as a helpful note about what the real rules of the setup are, and I think it makes GreyICE look bad more than it helps give him an excuse to correct himself.

I don't see a scum motivation behind the post.

[karnos]

Just for the hell of it, trying my hand at a reads list. I find myself reading a lot like ranger, but I don't give absent players the benefit of the doubt much, so anyone who hasn't posted recently is 1-2 tiers lower than they could be if they were more active (this is especially true for kop, Shadow_step, and Persivul). Of course I will quickly adjust my opinion of them once they start posting more often.

town:

karnos

townish:

ranger, texcat, aneninen

nullish:

Persivul, drmyshottyizsik, Chip Butty

scumish:

Psyche, kop, Shadow_step, SirCakez, Murdercat

scum:

Sickofit1138

Caveat being, I don't have a lot of faith in any of these reads on day 1, the only player I know for sure is myself.

[karnos]

I'm not going to respond to Grey anymore, hopefully that puts an end to the garbage posts. The first game I read on this site was one you were in, so I was curious to see how you would play in a game I am actually participating in.

Which game?

It was kids with guns.

[karnos]

Umm the fact that you lied....as town? In my experience lying is not a town tool to catch scum. It's a scum tool. I feel like you coming out with it was to act like you weren't scared but it came across as very fake.

Alright. I repeat myself, but I didn't actually lie. What I said is I *might* lie. Here is the exact quote: "

if I think you are scum and I want to see if you do more scummy stuff, I might even lie to you in the thread

" Note the words

if

and

might

, I wasn't saying that I had lied, and I wasn't even saying I will lie. Depending on how the game goes it might not be a useful tool, as it happens I may never have a reason to post a lie.

I said then, and still feel the same today, is that there are certainly times where lying as town is a great thing to do. Basically I could see exactly where GreyICE's argument was going, and rather than let it drag out and bog down the whole thread, I thought I could just save everyone some time by refuting his final point, which seemed to be that a lying player is a scum player. (That idea certainly didn't work out, but that is beside the point.)

Let me ask you two very important questions.

1:Do you believe that any player who lies in the thread is clearly scum?

2:Do you believe I knowingly lied in the thread?

Please answer carefully, I may hold you to your answers.

Why should I need to answer carefully? I don't need to blend in.

I have no reason to lie

. and my answer is I believe we should lynch all lyers in this setup.

You should answer carefully so you don't say something you regret.

So your answer to 1 is yes. How about 2?

[karnos]

@Karnos
I retread the thread and I see what you mean now.

Obviously not, because you are still dodging the question.

You said earlier that you think I am scum because of lying. So it should be really easy to answer the question:

2:Do you believe I knowingly lied in the thread?

[karnos]

It's time to take this game seriously guys you can't just sheep onto psyche or my wagon. Unless you have legit reasoning of course.

This strikes me as a weird thing to say. As town, you could know that you yourself are town, but why are you defending psyche so hard? You are so confident in your read that you would never consider lynching him?

[karnos]

@Karnos
Hmm I thought it was kinda clear my answer was no.

Interesting. So you voted me because I lied, but when asked if you believe I knowingly lied in the thread, your answer is no?

So did you lie when gave your reason for voting me, or am I missing something here?

[karnos]

I'm invting you guys to vote me now. I'm

Daring

you >:)

In my limited experience playing here, these types of posts (or self-votes, which are similar) have been made by scum just as often as not. 50% chance of hitting scum isn't terrible odds.

[karnos]

Incorrect. There's some confusion in this thread regarding RVS. Despite it standing for RANDOM voting stage, part of the idea is that they're NOT REALLY RANDOM - people may unconcsiously reveal information in who they select for their RVS vote, and in how they say it. Since you put random in quotation marks, you seem to understand that. So, if someone really does use a random method in RVS, they're doing so to avoid revealing information.

About to head out, but I have some thoughts on this I want to excplain later.

Psyche is not an acceptable lynch tonight, sorry.

I am guessing because he is replacing out?

[karnos]

Persevul is simply wrong to say that Karnos' strategy (voting the first player on the list) is designed to "avoid revealing information"; it's just a misreading of what karnos is (unclearly) trying to say. Voting the first player in the list in the RVS stage has exactly the same potential for eliciting information as any other "random" vote.

Incorrect. There's some confusion in this thread regarding RVS. Despite it standing for RANDOM voting stage, part of the idea is that they're NOT REALLY RANDOM - people may unconcsiously reveal information in who they select for their RVS vote, and in how they say it. Since you put random in quotation marks, you seem to understand that. So, if someone really does use a random method in RVS, they're doing so to avoid revealing information.

I wanted to come back to this.

I think it depends on which part of your vote is random.

For example, picking a random player is random, sure. But, for example, if you always vote Persivul, it's also a random vote in that you don't know what role persivul got. I guess my idea of RVS was that you were voting for a random role/slot, and it didn't matter as much whether the player was randomly picked or not. I also don't think of it as by choice much, I mean someone has to make the first vote and that can't be based on any in-game reads, so it's going to be essentially random even if the player isn't picked randomly.

Maybe I am confusing the issue, perhaps

blind vote

is a better phrase for what I am thinking it is, because random can be defined multiple ways.

[karnos]

Sickofit looks to me like a scum trying a desperate gambit to maybe survive an extra night. It also seems like he is trying to protect another scum. It could just be good sportsmanship not wanting to pile on a player who is getting replaced out, but I am not convinced.

[karnos]

Throwing it out here, my wild guess for our 3 scum is Sickofit1138, SirCakez, & Scott Brosius

Probably wrong, but that is where my thinking sits currently.

[karnos]

What I don't get is sick is unwilling to even consider a lynch on Scott brosius. He may read him as town, but if it ever comes down to town-me or a town-read playerI would happily steer the lynch away from myself, because I can only be 100% sure about myself. This setup has no masonry.

This is playing out exactly as I would expect it both of them are scum, as stuck knows if we lynch Scott brosius first after the scum flip he will be next, so he is pushing for a lynch on someone else even though it's a huge longshot.

[karnos]

Blah, posting from my tablet and Android autocorrect messed up a few names above.

[karnos]

im no newb. i would totally bus the guy.

You would bus scum as scum, but you won't accept a lynch on a guy why may or may not be town because you would rather selfhammer?

You are not playing to your win condition.

[karnos]

yes i am. ive made it clear why my self hammer is pro town rather tha a random hammerer. have you not read the forum?

Only if your reads are 100% accurate. You can't know Scott brosius isn't scum. Why do you value him higher than yourself?

You also can't know ranger is scum, even if you are town. If you self hammer and we lynch town.ranger tomorrow you just now the game for us.

[karnos]

Threw* not now. Android keyboard hates me.

[karnos]

Trust me. I am 90% confident in my reads

100% is better than 90%. That you would rather self hammer than lynch Scott brosius shows you aren't playing to a town win condition.

[karnos]

Throwing it out here, my wild guess for our 3 scum is Sickofit1138, SirCakez, & Scott Brosius

Probably wrong, but that is where my thinking sits currently.

Why Cakez?

All the posts after his first "bussed so hard" post. Read with the assumption that Scott & sick are scum, he really plays as a bit of a silent supporter, backing away when it looks like GreyICE might get lynched, same when Sick of it is under heavy pressure, and now that Sickofit is in an unredeemable situation cakes has decided to bus him.

Not going to quote posts because it's way too much right now, instead I am showing a summary of pages.

1- random vote, not notable

2- says "This makes no sense" towards kappy's (sickofit now) "We should only have the cops claim" post. this could be scum distancing themselves from other scum

3- votes kappy based on 'awkward posts' notably, this is right after persivul puts out a strong case as GreyICE being scum. if you are going to vote a scum partner, might as well do it when your other scum partner already has some heat, right? later on this page, kappy votes SirCakes back. IMO this could easily just be scum voting scum.

4- sircakez seems to be trying to use kappys votes as an odd sort of attack towards aneninen

5- nothing. this is the page I voted GrayICE for the first time

6- a few comments, some fake attacks on kappy, and he says he will do a readlist "soon" - May 26 10:49AM

7- nothing. this page is a lot of back and forth between GreyICE and me.

8- he posts calling my posts scummy, but then says it's probably just TvT. I see this as a way to vouch for his scum partner without being too obvious, and a way to give GreyICE an out if he wants to just back off and change tactics. cakez posts again later in the page to question why ranger reads me as town, and to announce V/LA until Monday. Oh well, so much for that readlist we were promised "soon"

9- nothing, on V/LA I guess

10- again, support for his scummate without being too obvious: "I think Grey is town" Of interest, not a cakez post, GreyICE last post on the page is a reads list, he suggest me, Chip & Kappy are the scum. I still think the theory holds, at that point GreyICE just decided it was worth bussing kappy (sickofit) if it might make a couple other townies look scummy.

11- votes Robert. questions shadow_step claim that kappy's slot is scummy now- funny turnaround, since cakez was calling kappy scum earlier in the day. To me I see this as more evidence that the early back and forth between them was SvS trying to sow confusion, and now that others are willing to actually for kappy cakez gets worried and backs off, using robert as an excuse to change votes

12- some interesting stuff here. sickofit reads list with SirCakez in the "least scummy" position. GreyICE near the middle of his read list- I think at this point in the thread he knew there was a good chance for GreyICE to be lynched and flip scum, so he didn't want to dare read him anywhere close to "least scummy". I guess he didn't realize kappy was previously calling sircakez scum. immediately sides with GreyICE vs me, fits with supporting a scum buddy. sircakez makes a few contentless posts such as "stop bickering", and questions some of sickofit's reads. what strikes me here is the difference in tone. When questioning other players, I get the idea that sircakes is writing in an accusatory manner like every error is intentional, while in these posts it's like he is just trying to coach sickofit and make sure his posts look properly towny.

13- more of sircakez coaching sickofit's readlist. sickofit seems to go on the attack agianst me, which is interesting because I don't recall kappy being so vocal in calling me scum. impression i get is he subbed into the slot, saw me as his scum parnter's main foe, and sensed some weakness with psyche's post offering an alternative explanation for why GreyICE appeared scummy.

14- SirCakez votes me. this is, ironically enough, the one post so far that really makes me doubt my theory. Would all 3 scum really be so blatant to try to push the same wagon when they can't even guarantee a hammer? I don't know. everything else fits, but this doesn't.

15- "Sickofit/Karnos are acceptable lynches." this is a post to separate himself from his scum buddy sickofit, making him sound like he is opposed to him, while his vote for me says something else entirely. That, and he is starting to realize with all his coaching is ineffective and sickofit is going to get himself lynched anyway, time to consider bussing.

16-24 nothing at all for 8 pages

To me, this is indicative that he is waiting and seeing if sickofit can climb out of the hole he has dug. His last post prior to this radio silence was on page 15, and he doesn't dare defend sickofit much more because it will implicate him when sickofit flips scum. But he isn't ready to bus, yet... there is still some chance sickofit may land a gambit or fool enough people to lynch a town.

25-

Spoiler:

If we're not lynching Psyche today, we're lynching Sickofit. No other lynches today are acceptable, and no claims they make should let them off the hook. Mkay?

I am dead serious about this, by the way.

I'm flat-out delivering an ultimatum here: sheep me or face my fury and wrath on future days. In particular, this is to SirCakez who voted karnos, but also applies to karnos, shotty, Chip Butty, and Murdercat. (texcat I'm beginning to think

could

be scum, and definitely is if I'm wrong on any of {Aneninen, GreyICE, Sickofit}, most likely Aneninen.)

I don't get reads this good that often.

But I am absolutely

DEMANDING

to be sheeped. Not asking. Demanding. Choose one of {GreyICE, Sickofit} to lynch. We're not touching anyone else today. You can prod, you can poke around, you can ask questions, you can push, go ahead and do all of this and more for names outside of them, sure, that's your prerogative. But as for the actual LYNCH, we're sheeping me today, period, end of story. Don't like it? Either cop me or kill me.

I'm also fine lynching Sickofit. I'll vote after I catchup, I saw something about self-hammering being possible so I don't want to derphammer.

Just for the hell of it, trying my hand at a reads list. I find myself reading a lot like ranger, but I don't give absent players the benefit of the doubt much, so anyone who hasn't posted recently is 1-2 tiers lower than they could be if they were more active (this is especially true for kop, Shadow_step, and Persivul). Of course I will quickly adjust my opinion of them once they start posting more often.

town:

karnos

townish:

ranger, texcat, aneninen

nullish:

Persivul, drmyshottyizsik, Chip Butty

scumish:

Psyche, kop, Shadow_step, SirCakez, Murdercat

scum:

Sickofit1138

Caveat being, I don't have a lot of faith in any of these reads on day 1, the only player I know for sure is myself.

I really don't like this ending line. He tossed down a reads list only to immediately put doubt on himself, like "hey these reads shouldn't lead back to me if the scum reads flip town".

Sickofit/Karnos are acceptable lynches. I still think the Grey/Psyche slot is town.

Um no, I'm not an acceptable lynch.

I'm not convinced.

{Ranger, Cakez}
{Persivul}
{MURDERCAT, Shotty}
{Karnos, texcat, Shadow, Robert}
{Anen}
{Psyche}
{Sick}

Why is MURDERCAT above null? He's barely done anything.

Anen what's wrong with the dogpile onto a lurker? He did nothing to scumhunt.

One of the laziest things scums are doing is pushing lurkers. Pushing an active player may lead to a long and protracted fight, which may result that the whole push gets backfired on them.

I think Chip is town fyi, a mix of gut and the amount of effort and content he's putting in looks like too much to be from new scum.

Never underestimate relatively new players!
In a Newbie game I was IC-ing I drew scum and got quicklynched on Day2. My buddy, a newer player, won the game for us smoothly.

True but that assumes the lurker is town.
Chip seems very unsure of himself at times though. I'm not sure how your newbie scum buddy acted but I doubt it was like this.

Full on bus mode! Toot toot! Of course he is fine lynching the scum, there is no getting out of this hole, sickofit is going to get lynched, and defending him will just make cakes look even worse upon the flip.

"I really don't like this ending line. He tossed down a reads list only to immediately put doubt on himself, like "hey these reads shouldn't lead back to me if the scum reads flip town"." not surprising at all, given he still has a vote on me. He needs a viable lynch to push for tomorrow, after bussing.

[karnos]

VOTE: Sickofit.

That's hammer.

I'm N3 cop.

Ranger and chip bitty are scum. 3rd slot is Karnos/Texcat

I hope you are joking. If you are legit cop, you just hurt town big time by self hammering. There goes all my theory above.

I guess we will see the official flip.

[karnos]

As to me possibly lettin you guys lose if ranger is town... You were already on the track of lunching grey ice which I know nearly for sure is town.

If you really are town, then you need to realize something.

You misread me. I am not scum, I am town. So when you say X is scum or Y is town, I already know that your reads are terrible, because you read me wrong.

In this setup, the only player you can be sure of is yourself on day 1, unless you are scum. You played against your win condition by trusting your read instead of trusting the 100% provable fact that you are the role you know you are. I wouldn't have minded lynching GreyICE instead of you, but your insistence that he is town sealed your fate.

And your idea that you will get night-killed anyway so it doesn't matter is BS, and you should know that. By self hammering, instead of getting night killed the scum can kill another guaranteed town player, someone stronger than you.

"Knowing" you will get night killed is never a valid reason to be okay with getting lynched.

[karnos]

Cop shotty or anen pls and ty

Or ranger. Give more options to the cops, you don't want to narrow it down and give scum a high chance to kill the investigated player before anything comes of it.

[karnos]

Or me- if cop is still in doubt of my faction, by all means investigate away.

I'm still hoping sickofit is just messing with us, and will flip as scum.

[karnos]

Claiming Night 1 Cop

Anem is town doctor.

mod, are you giving cops role as well as alignment?

This is really crucially important.

[karnos]

Yes, he played against wincon. They should ban RC from the Newbie games. Newbies see an established player do it and they think it's OK. It isn't. Town should never self vote.

Hey, in all fairness when scum.RC self voted in my second newbie game it just made it easier to lynch him and led to a town tin.

I agree though, self voting as town serves no purpose. Self voting as scum doesn't serve much of a purpose, but I guess there are corner cases.

[karnos]

VOTE: drmyshottyizsik

BUSSED SO HARD.

Is that how I am supposed to do it?

[karnos]

Claiming Night 1 Cop

Anem is town doctor.

mod, are you giving cops role as well as alignment?

No.

That's that. I'll vote him whenever there's consensus to end the phase.

The mod is lying. Also the mod never told me to keep it under wraps, I just got a sorry if this gets you mis lynched.

Either
1) you are scum pulling a gambit: correct move is to lynch you.
2) you are a townie being taken advantage of by the mod: correct move is to lynch you and determine the game has been irreparably damaged by mod actions

In neither case does it make sense to keep you alive, sorry.

[karnos]

I think he meant the first post of the thread. I didn't see it say doctor, but I did see the edit time stamp was later than it should be, so maybe it did originally say doctor.

[karnos]

UNVOTE: drmyshottyizsik

Just want to buy a little more time, don't want shotty to hammer himself yet.

[karnos]

It doesn't make sense as anything but a stupid error.

As town, he has no incentive to reveal role.

As scum, he couldn't even be a cop, so he couldn't know role.

[karnos]

Anyone has a theory to why texcat was killed?

Either my reads are

completely

and entirely wrong with texcat's being superior, or it was a cop-snipe.

Her last post:

VOTE: Psyche

Omgus + trust in Ranger' s reads

So, something I like to consider, especially when a very heavy scum read of mine turns out to be town (i.e. sickofit), is that I have been reading all wrong this game.

Why did

texcat

die last night?

Rephrase the question: why didn't

ranger

die last night? In my brief experience on these boards, I have come to understand ranger has a bit of a reputation, and scum are extremely likely to target her for a nightkill above all other players.

Scenario- ranger is scum, that is why ranger wasn't killed last night. Why texcat? Texcat's last post was her saying she trusts rangers reads, what better target to kill who would draw zero suspicion towards ranger? Of course with contrary thinking as I am using now, it draws a lot of suspicion.

Scenario- ranger is town. Scum killed texcat because... why? If texcat was so scary to scum, when texcat was merely following ranger's reads, wouldn't it make more sense and go to the source and kill ranger directly?

Scenario- scum full expected someone to ask these exact questions, and carefully crafted a plan to kill texcat in order to throw suspicion on ranger. This is a very serious possibility, the idea being that if ranger isn't killed at night, maybe town will lynch her for them and save them the need to night kill.

I'm not calling ranger scum, I really don't know. Maybe because I made this post, scum will avoid killing ranger again tonight. I can live with that, because town.ranger is worth keeping alive.

I don't see this day ending in any way other than a shotty lynch, and tonight's scumkill may bring some more useful data.

[karnos]

UNVOTE: drmyshottyizsik

Just want to buy a little more time, don't want shotty to hammer himself yet.

He was already on his own wagon.

Ah of course he is, I misread his vote, thought he was saying he was going to vote himself.

VOTE: drmyshottyizsik

[karnos]

747: Replies to Scott's 693, which contains the following bizarre mistake: "The first post also says texcat flipped doctor,". The flip post about textcat, which I presume Scott is referring to here, clearly said texcat was Town COP. Yet shadow doesn't pick up on this at all. More questions, including one questioning the view that Anen looks more Town regardless of Shotty's alignment. In #736, Shadow already agrees that if Shotty is scum, then he is prob framing Anen, i.e. Anen looks more Town. Why doesn't he see the blindingly obvious fact that if Shotty is Town, then he is telling the truth in his claim about Anen being Town Doc? Answer: because he is too busy asking questions to look busy to do any real thinking about the issue.

I agree with most of your points, but I think the mod may well have made a mistake in #0, and then corrected it. Time stamp for #676 is 5:16pm, while #0 is last edited 8:54pm. Plenty of time for an erroneous post to say doctor, get seen by a few people, and then the mod corrected back to what we see now.

[karnos]

After my first readthrough, texcat seemed the most scummy. Shadow_step's case on him seemed pretty compelling! Texcat's vote for karnos seemed like a copy of greyice's. That would be okay on its own, but the way it's done feels like something pretending to be original content. Texcat's latter posts similarly seem conciliatory and deliberately

not

impactful on the course of the game. Ss's criticism back on post 82 seems just as relevant now at post 300.

vote texcat

Interesting. Psyche (now Scott) backing up Shadow's "case" on texcat. Calls Shadow's case "compelling" when it was anything but.

Only problem with the theoretical shadow scum theory- who are the scum partners? If scum shotty indicates a scum annnnnn, both shadow & GrayICE (now Brosius) can't be scum ,that is too many scum.

[karnos]

Spoiler:

747: Replies to Scott's 693, which contains the following bizarre mistake: "The first post also says texcat flipped doctor,". The flip post about textcat, which I presume Scott is referring to here, clearly said texcat was Town COP. Yet shadow doesn't pick up on this at all. More questions, including one questioning the view that Anen looks more Town regardless of Shotty's alignment. In #736, Shadow already agrees that if Shotty is scum, then he is prob framing Anen, i.e. Anen looks more Town. Why doesn't he see the blindingly obvious fact that if Shotty is Town, then he is telling the truth in his claim about Anen being Town Doc? Answer: because he is too busy asking questions to look busy to do any real thinking about the issue.

I agree with most of your points, but I think the mod may well have made a mistake in #0, and then corrected it. Time stamp for #676 is 5:16pm, while #0 is last edited 8:54pm. Plenty of time for an erroneous post to say doctor, get seen by a few people, and then the mod corrected back to what we see now.

Also, Scott Brosius's post was 8:50, prior to the last edit of #0 at 8:54. I don't think his bizarre post is really scum indicative, I think it's indicative of a mod error.

[karnos]

Great now that I'm hammered I can maybe get more clout. I am night 1 doctor. I target anen and was told town doctor. I said hey should I know role and alignment? I was told well the wiki wasn't specific so yes, I don't think it a big deal. I said it is a big deal. I was ignored. Then I said watch this. I'll get lynched because of this. He then replied sorry if you get lynched.

sorry, that sounds pretty crazy.

[karnos]

I did, sorry phone post while being pulled over

So on top of everything else, you are also getting a speeding ticket?

Shotty and the terrible, horrible, no good, very bad day.

[karnos]

Throwing it out here, my wild guess for our 3 scum is Sickofit1138,

SirCakez

, &

Scott Brosius

Probably wrong, but that is where my thinking sits currently.

Was so close. If only sickofit could have voted scott brosius instead of himself. Not sure I would have ever guessed persivul as scum though.

[karnos]

And for the record I was night 4 doctor.

[karnos]

Since the game is over now, can you paste in the PM you got? Just curious how he worded it.

[karnos]

I would like to do it, though I am getting close to my personal limit for number of games I can handle at once.