Open 596: Mega PopCorn Mafia - Over

[julienvonwolfe]

/confirm

[julienvonwolfe]

Jesus, this is what posting cat pictures can lead to, it seems.

I'm wondering at Nacho's being chosen to be gunbearer. Is this because Nacho is a strong player and scum want him to make a shot based on the least amount of info possible (ie. on day one)? I haven't played in a while so I don't know. On the other hand is it because scum were hoping he'd shoot Heartless because of the cat picture thing? That seems like a weird idea to me because it only makes sense as a play if Heartless is town. Heartless could be vengeful I guess but it would be a waste for scum to invite a shot like that as there are only a few of them. It's possible that Heartless is scum and that this is the reasoning that scum want us to follow, but at the moment I'm choosing to think that's less likely, as it seems more high-risk than the alternative of, you know, not posting a cat picture.

I don't have as many thoughts yet on other players. A couple of gut reads, a couple of 'hmmm' moments, but nothing worth posting just yet.

[julienvonwolfe]

Hi guys. I'm posting from my phone so formatting might be awkward. In reply to vonflare's characterisation of my earlier post as something like 'mostly wifom', I would point out that I did try to evaluate all the possibilities and say which I preferred. Read it again if you want.

And, to business:

VOTE: Wanderer-nl

I vote that we use votes, despite the cosmetic nature.

When I read the set-up, I thought about something that happened in a Lights Out 1 (completed theme park game in 2006) where Pooky created a referendum-based voting system to create a papertrail to ensure that there was always something to look back at. And in a game with "cosmetic votes", I think we need to do something specific to ensure that everyone can be held to some standard. Thoughts?

I also remember Kingmaker (and the subsequent other versions...I think there was a consulmaker too?) where there were several other voting methods in a game where a small number had power to decide the "lynch".

Yeah I like this. If we all vote the scum will have to join to not stand out so lets not wait too long either. If the gunbearer doesn't know who to shoot, they can always go with the person who has the most votes.
Or we decide right now the gunbearer will shoot the person with the most votes? That might pressure scum a little more into making cases on town.
When a gunbearer attempts to shoot a towny, he dies and the targetted townie gets the gun. If a vengeful gets shot, they both die and mafia gets to pick the new gunbearer. I think we should find the vengefuls as quick as possible because I'd rather have scum control the gun early game. It will be harder to assign a gunbearer later in the game because of associations.

I'll reread and see if I find something worthy of a cosmetic vote.

Here our friend Wanderer proposes normal mafia playing techniques (voting, lynching those with the most votes) as if they are incredibly useful scum hunting techniques. I'll admit that there's a reason that we use them in every other game, just about, as getting people to state their opinions is good for town, but I don't like the suggestion that we coerce (or constrain, perhaps) the gunbearer. From my perspective, the gunbearer is confirmed town, and any majority opinion of players will include scum joining and maybe even steering the wagon. I trust the gunbearer more than the collective will of the players, in other words.

But what really rubs me up the wrong way is the 'cosmetic' vote (because of course votes don't matter anyway, right, guys? ) and then the jumping on people like dcl and vonflare, both of whom seem to me to be more divisive than scummy.

[julienvonwolfe]

I just dug up what Pablo's system is. If we do force people to comment on the gunbearer's shortlist that works for me.

I'm a bit 'meh' on the last few pages of discussion. Nothing jumps out at me overmuch. Wanderer's explained a few things, reasonably, I think, but I still disagree with her vonflare vote and so my vote on her remains.

Speaking of which, flubber seems to still be fine with going dcl and vonflare - why? To my reading the dcl thing stemmed out of a weird aversion to the deadline/planned pace of the game (go play a smaller/speedier game next time?); to interpret that as scummy you have to think that he's trying to hurt the town by, what, making us play a faster paced game? My thinking on vonflare is that people are making too much of the ninja kerfuffle, as I can't see how that matters, but whatever.

I have more town reads than scum reads at the moment. I'm annoyed at the amount of lurking.

[julienvonwolfe]

@julien can you show me where dcl is scumhunting?

Seems to me that she was angry and didn't post properly until 150 and then promptly went on V/LA. I'm wondering why you needed to ask me that.

~~

@ Wanderer in 298: In your discussion of vonflare, you say that presently you assume that "scum are not going to accuse town on little things because scum already know who's town and are going to be careful lying". How does that really differ from a normal game in which the alignment of the person who is lynched is revealed anyway? Scum need to whittle down the playerlist somehow.

~~

@ West in 312: Okay, thanks for explaining. I am uncomfortable basing a read on an early game instance of somebody getting flustered under pressure.

~~

@ Maxwell in 325 & 329: I'm not sure where I said that we should follow the gunbearer, nor that we should abandon all of our critical facilities and ignore the way in which people have interacted with the gunbearer. Theory relating to the gunbearer aside, what I was objecting to was wanderer's suggestion that we use essentially traditional mafia mechanics - agree on somebody to lynch and then analyse the lynches. I'm not sure that I buy the 'struggling-to-play-this-game' vibe she's putting out at the moment, as it is a way of posting stuff that is not useful.

~~

I have more town reads than scum reads at the moment. I'm annoyed at the amount of lurking.

Who are your townreads? Who are your scumreads?

I've been thinking a bit more about the mechanic that means that a shot townie keeps the gun. I think that in this setup we should expect scum to take a less-than-pugilistic stance in this game because if they are seen to drive a mislynch, the person whom they mislynch will be alive the next day with the power to shoot whomever they like (and maybe a grudge as well). It makes sense, then, that scum would want to lurk or soft-pedal, perhaps even more so than in a normal game.

To that end I like the people who are getting stuck in a bit. Pablito and Heartless I think are town. I'm not sure that I like the content of West9's posts but his willingness to make his views known speak well for him based on my theory that scum will try to lurk this one out. Perpetual Nonsense tends towards active lurking but voted for RedCoyote, which I like. Flubber maybe.

Scum reads: Wanderer. In iso I think she's town, almost, but I dislike the 'I find it hard to play this because I have no experience' thing (don't people play theme games and deal with this sort of thing all the time?) and the way she is null on people like Coyote and Lucky 298. Also RedCoyote. Lucky. Millar. Enomis, who in 301 seems to acknowledge his own active lurking; defended Red as well.

[julienvonwolfe]

'defended as well' where did I defend anyone?
If I can't read someone, they're null on my list.
And can you please stop misrepping. I said I have no experience with nightless, lynchless mafia. How do people that play themed games deal with this all the time? It's my first themed game on this site and I haven't read any other theme games, are you saying all themed games are nightless and lynchless?

Okay, I admit you didn't say that they were town. Still, you were pulling back from the attack, and maybe that's a better way of putting it.

Also, I didn't know it was your first 'themed' game (not that I think this is a themed game, really), ever. In that case perhaps what you say is a little bit more understandable. I myself haven't played a game with quite this killing mechanic either, but it's hardly uncommon on this site for games to throw weird mechanics at players, particularly in theme games, which is why I bring it up. I suppose why you're pinging to me is that you have been leaning on this issue heavily, to the point that it is almost becoming an appeal to emotion or some sort of newbie card. You're doing it instead of playing the game, which remains fundamentally the same (town vs mafia).

~~

Shouldn't iso be more important as a read then some "I find it hard to play before i have no experience.". I think you are enlarging the "null on coyote and lucky" part. You seem insincere on this read.

You seem very sincere in your defense of wanderer.

(Also, no - I don't think that iso is more important. We don't play mafia in iso.)

~~

@ Max in 372 - out of curiosity, how do you arrive at the view that Millar isn't vengeful?

~~

@ Red in 375: What?

~~

@ Flubber in 385: I really don't understand your issue here. Would you share the backstory? (Unless there's an ongoing game of course)

~~

@ Red in 416: Are you saying that Nacho should simply trust you? Rule 13 of this game would seem to forbid that. I don't know what site-wide meta led to that (pooky?) but it makes sense to me as a rule.

[julienvonwolfe]

Never mind, I did some reading up on trust tells. I don't think Red quite used one but if he's trying to suggest that we should know he's town based on his playstyle and his meta, rather than engaging more with this game, it is tedious if nothing else.

[julienvonwolfe]

Sorry guys, busy weekend, catching up now

[julienvonwolfe]

Okay, Nacho's 464 makes a lot of sense to me. I think I like Red after all. Victor's definitely worth a shot; I missed how his 'unless I get shot' post could be a slip.

UNVOTE: Wanderer

VOTE: Victor

~~~

Regarding Lucky's post 473: Jesus.

~~~

Comment on Lucky getting shot after the weekend. Do you agree with this shot?

Sure, though I prefer Victor just now.

~~~

Other referenda:

1.1 (Vonflare): Okay with a Vonflare shot. I had a vague sense initially that the criticism was undeserved but he has flown under the radar since.
1.1 (CB): Not okay with a CB shot.
1.3,4 (Wanderer): Okay with a wanderer shot.

~~~

Jeanne either needs to play properly or replace out.

~~~

Eh. I'm kind of done right now. The referendum mechanic is okay but isn't really a substitute for the usual analysing of votes. I realise this post is a bit insubstantial but am running out of steam a bit.

[julienvonwolfe]

@Julienvonwolfe

- So instead of trying to justify your Wanderer scumread your just going to sheep Nacho. That's weaksauce.

I can back a Julien shot as well at this point.

I did justify my Wanderer scumread. You're welcome to look it up.

Regarding Victor, since multiple people have commented - I read his 455 as a scumslip because only scum would die if they were shot, but I had skimmed past it previously. Ahem.

Pablito, if you think Max is your #1 scum target, why don't you want him shot? I don't understand.

[julienvonwolfe]

-I have added Julien. I kind of liked his opening posts but that catch up post 531 was really underwhelming to me. I don't like how he seemed very apathetic towards the game.

I have thought about this and I think I misspoke when I called that post apathetic. It is more of a feeling that he felt the need to appear to be putting out content that I find scummy.

With all due respect, that is bullshit. Is the optimum play now to wait around doing nothing until Victor decides to shoot someone?

[julienvonwolfe]

In any event, if I were gunbearer right now, I would shoot: vonflare (I defended his early posting but am not getting a town feel from the slot at the moment), lucky (come on, he's got to be bluffing - shoot him already), with Jeanne as an outside bet.

I'm meh on these players, in order of wouldn't shoot to would shoot: PN (doesn't always make a lot of sense but seems genuine), Feirei, pablito, Wanderer (I think that my Day 1 reads were clearly a bit off), Flubber, enomis, CB.

I wouldn't shoot Heartless, Maxwell, or RC.

I think that's everybody. I can't work out how to use this dang macbook yet and so this isn't formatted beautifully.

[julienvonwolfe]

Oh, West9 goes in the 'wouldn't shoot' category. Sorry for the triple post.

[julienvonwolfe]

Guys I've asked the mod to replace me, as real life is taking more time than I thought it would. Sorry about that. Good playing with y'all.