Open 576: The Enemy of my Enemy is my...Enemy? (Day 2)

[dragonspawn]

VOTE: clusk

cause anyone with a goatee like that has to be up to something

[dragonspawn]

What's with the self vote astinus? How does that help anyone?

[dragonspawn]

VOTE: Teen Girl Squad
because dinosaurs eat teen girls.

I would have thought the teen girl obsession with werewolves would be a better reason.

this seems like you are the aggressive one not her. Do you normally eat people?

[dragonspawn]

What makes you think my Astinus vote was the serious one?

because it wasn't random. Though I suppose the one for me might not have been either

[dragonspawn]

I've read on the MafiaScum wiki that self-voting can help your game in certain circumstances, depending on your role. I feel that it would be beneficial to my game, so that is why I'm self-voting.

that doesn't explain why it's beneficial. Unless attracting votes is a good thing I don't see why it would be in random vote

[dragonspawn]

As for my experience here, I have 3 completed games, one of which is a non-Newbie Game, and I am in two games right now: this one and Newbie 1548.

Anything else anyone wants to know?

yes why the self vote and why the scum claim?

this is the weirdest first day I've been on. Who claims to possibly not be vt in a game without power roles.

I'm going to finish reading through and think about all this discussion so far. Let's not lynch anyone soon though

[dragonspawn]

I'm not saying that self-voting is helpful for vanilla townies, because I don't think it is. But I'm also not saying that I'm a vanilla townie. I'm voting for myself to hopefully help my side win, whichever it is.

rereading everything. This post still sets off huge red flags for me. He pretty much said he isn't a townie. The only question is we wolf or mafia?

so how can anyone read this as town? I know there are some saying they think astinus is town. I don't see how that's a reasonable conclusion here

[dragonspawn]

Is he, stupid autocorrect

[dragonspawn]

On a more serious note, with the exception of a grand total of three players here, I don't recognize a single name among you. Now, for most scummers, that might seem insignificant. However, I'm Mastin. I'm a bit of a rock star among mafiascum.net. (Before the scum go eager to nightkill me, and/or the town gets to have unrealistically-high expectations of me, though, please note that rockstar simply means 'really well-known'. MS.net has a love-hate relationship with me and my quirks, about 50/50 split, even, and therefore I'm both famous and infamous, neither unjustifiably so. Overall, I'm only a mediocre player. But I digress.) What that means is that...well, between me and my alts, I have seen basically every big-name player around, so if I don't recognize your name *at all*, either you've been hanging around extensively in sections I haven't, or you're a relatively-new player. (To be fair, both are true, since I typically don't join opens except on request.)

What this is all leading up to is me asking about how much experience each player in the game has. Their past games, their general playstyle, what they expect, and whatnot. That way, we may be able to have some better understanding from the get-go. With that in mind, my internet was out all of yesterday, so that means I've got three pages to catch up on.

I keep rereading this post over for some reason and it bothers me. I don't know if it's the "I am so cool so listen to me" vibe that is so presumptuous or it's my scum radar.

I'll have a much better idea as the game goes on.

[dragonspawn]

This claim makes no sense.

Which is why I'm pretty sure it comes from town.

By the way, on the wagon, Oilura is another name I'm highly-suspicious of.
In fact,

Vote: Oilura

.

why are you suspicious of oilura. She hasn't really struck me either way yet

[dragonspawn]

@2birds1stone, why do you doubt Astinus is scum? She essentially said as much. What was wrong with Mathdino's unvote if you doubt Astinus is scum?

In my experience, the most anti-town play comes from town; scum are just too cautious to do certain things. Scum do not want to come into the game with a self-vote and keep that self-vote on even at L-1, and scum do not really want the attention of holding a self-vote. If I had to guess, I'd say this is some extremely misguided attempt at sparking discussion (and sure, it worked, but it's fucking WIFOM and liable to turn into a theory discussion).

The unvote struck me as a way of looking town without actually contributing to town. Outside of newbie games, it seems safe to say that nobody's going to derphammer a declared L-1; on top of that, the unvote only served to remove pressure from a player who really needed more of it. Finally, on the off-chance that Astinus is scum, Mathdino's unvote looks like it comes from a spooked buddy.

There's very much a part of me that wants Astinus policy-lynched.

What this is all leading up to is me asking about how much experience each player in the game has. Their past games, their general playstyle, what they expect, and whatnot.

This is my second game after coming back from year-and-a-half hiatus, had 18 games before that. I personally feel the only game representative of my current play is my most recent one, Mini 1606.

pretty good argument concerning the biggest anti town usually being town since scum won't take that chance. Can we take that chance?

all and all I'm thinking bird comes across as town to me.

[dragonspawn]

Like I said, I voted for myself to hopefyully help my side win. And I did not claim to be scum anywhere.

so you aren't vanilla town and you aren't scum. Exactly what team are you playing for?

[dragonspawn]

Like I said, I voted for myself to hopefyully help my side win. And I did not claim to be scum anywhere.

How is your play helpful to

any

side you could be on right now? I'm honestly asking, I'm not trying to insult you.

I second the question. And I don't mind if you feel insulted by it.

[dragonspawn]

Here's what I'm thinking right now.

bird and fink are town. Just getting a town feel from them.

astinus is completely anti town and even scummy in his play so far.

mastin and Dino are slight scum reads right now. I need to see more from then to determine if they are actually scum or if their game play just annoys me.

the rest are pretty null. I would like to hear more fro. Clusk on what is going on. Since that is my random vote and I am not ready to switch to someone else I am going to keep my vote on him to see what he has to say. I am very strongly leaning to lynch astinus at the end of the day though.

[dragonspawn]

Because I'm not inclined to rush a lynch so soon. I like to get as much info as I can before the day is up

[dragonspawn]

This is playing your best?

[dragonspawn]

I am inclined to agree that we don't benefit from a quick lynch. Let's keep the discussion going and get catch some scum for a good lynch day two. Especially if astinus somehow turns out to be town. The more discussion we keep going the more likely we will be to find the scum.

[dragonspawn]

unvote

VOTE: mastin

id like to hear more from mastin. Why are you so sure astinus is town? What was it you saw about oilura that you found suspicious?

[dragonspawn]

Teen girl,

to answer your question, I didn't really have a read on njac when you asked. I went back and read his extensive postings.

one being his random vote for mastin.

two being him questioning astinus on his self vote

third urging us not to rush lynch astinus.

thinking about his lack of participation and his few comments, I think he could be scum.

I was voting for mastin in hopes that my questions would be answered. Mastin answered. I'm still processing the answers but I think njac could use little pressure.

unvote

VOTE: njac

why don't you tell us what you think of astinus's answers njac? Or how about some reads and a serious vote?

[dragonspawn]

Mostly a gut reaction. Hence the pressure vote

[dragonspawn]

Astinus honestly does read town outside of the scumclaim, for the reasons Mastin outlined.

I simply do not feel it healthy for the metagame to leave scumclaims unlynched, and it is also dangerous for the sake of this game. I feel that not lynching Astinus over this makes her effectively unlynchable; no matter how scummy you look, nothing will ever top a scumclaim. Non-confirmed unlynchables are dangerous.

Astinus absolutely needs to be lynched. Not necessarily today (today seems the best day for it), but sometime.

I am inclined to agree that we don't benefit from a quick lynch. Let's keep the discussion going and get catch some scum for a good lynch day two. Especially if astinus somehow turns out to be town. The more discussion we keep going the more likely we will be to find the scum.

Thank you for jumping on the "guys, quicklynches are bad" PSA bandwagon.

This becomes especially ironic here:

...

I didn't really have a read on njac when you asked. I went back and read his extensive postings.

...

third urging us not to rush lynch astinus.

...

I'm still processing the answers but I think njac could use little pressure.

unvote

VOTE: njac

...

I'm quite liking dragonspawn for scum. Unsure whether the inconsistent attitude towards Astinus is same-alignment indicative or not, but I'm thinking not.

inconsistent attitude? How so? I've been clear that I want astinus lynched. I've also been clear how I'm going to use the time until we are ready to lynch to scum hunt. Why do you seem to think using my vote to pressure people for response shows an inconsistent attitude toward astinus?

[dragonspawn]

As for my experience here, I have 3 completed games, one of which is a non-Newbie Game, and I am in two games right now: this one and Newbie 1548.

Anything else anyone wants to know?

yes why the self vote and why the scum claim?

this is the weirdest first day I've been on. Who claims to possibly not be vt in a game without power roles.

I'm going to finish reading through and think about all this discussion so far. Let's not lynch anyone soon though

this is my first request to not rush a lynch on day one. So why is my second one being quoted as an effort to make it look I was just jumping on the bandwagon. If there weren't people who wanted to rush lynch astinus despite the need for us to use the time to scum hunt I wouldn't have been making my request multiple times. The only person I saw asking to not rush things before this post was njac, and that was prior to astinus explicit scum claim. Of course since I was skimming this time, I may have missed another's request.

so why the need to quote the second request I made and ignore the first one? Other than to make it look like I was just tagging on at the end?

[dragonspawn]

I'm buddying you for answering your question teen girl?

[dragonspawn]

I am more than willing to hammer astinus if she fails to provide any information as promised. We are giving her plenty of time to pony up. But I will give plenty of time before.

as for alleged inconsistencies, I am voting njac as a pressure to provide substance. I'm reading him as slight scum not for the content of the votes as much as the lack of content.

[dragonspawn]

Wasn't expecting a hammer so quickly. I'd offer some thoughts before the flip but I don't have time to sift through and process all the posts since I last posted. Let's see how she flips.

[dragonspawn]

Saw the hammer, but am leaving in 15 minutes--not enough time.

Regarding Mastin's comment about this being more common from town.

I've been trying to figure out if there was a logical scum or town motivation for Astinus' claim, and the best I've come up with is some bullshit I don't think is very smart.

I can promise that if I survive the night, I can explain fully EXACTLY why.

Short version short: I've claimed scum as town before in my own game history; I did it all the time. Salamance also pulled an EXCELLENT scumclaim as town in The Wire, which would have netted a scumbag if players had listened to him. The basicv motivation as town is obvious, as it can help you differentiate between town and scum. Astinus never actually scumclaimed, because she chose her wording VERY carefully. As a master of selective wording (because I love 'crumbing), I instantly saw this in her. She never said self-voting was beneficial to a VT...but she also didn't say that it was the self-vote itself that was beneficial. The reactions TO the self-vote ARE beneficial to a VT. She also never claimed scum, and insisted that her actions were useful to her faction. Considering the scumhunting we've been able to do from her wagon (me in particular, recognizing the motion), that holds true for town.

It does NOT hold true for scum, because self-voting serves only to draw attention to yourself. Given this was the RVS, NOT the lategame where she could be distracting from a scumbuddy, her pulling the move could only hurt her as scum, since there would be no way of knowing she'd have any defenders whereas it most likely would earn her condemnation. Thus, the move has EXTREME town Motive, and if you've read my articles, you know that I scumhunt primarily using it. And she had no scum motive, plenty of town motive.

Yet this was potentially me writing onto her elements of my own play, thus why I wanted her to defend herself.

that's the short version?

[dragonspawn]

Mastin2 is town? Interesting...

I thought he was scum. Well, there goes most of my reads.

As for why I hammered, it was because some of you implied that you wanted a hammer:

Astinus

, answer the below before someone waltzes into the thread and hammers you.

I'm also more than willing to

hammer Astinus in the near future

, once we've heard from her.

I am more than willing to hammer astinus if she fails to provide any information as promised. We are giving her plenty of time to pony up. But I will give plenty of time before.

there is a reason I said we should let her have time. It's because I wanted her to have time to answer. If I wanted her dead I would have hammered and not given her time waiting for someone else to do it.

this excuse of yours seriously sucks

[dragonspawn]

VOTE: Fink

I Fink this guy is scum

Oh My God You Suck (at puns) VOTE: Clusk

finks random vote. Doesn't mean much but it seems a good place to start.

Actually, I think my previous vote doesn't count. It was a stupid vote anyway. It had stupid hair.

VOTE: Teen Girl Squad

Early wagons are sooooo good!

finks second random vote. Not sure it says much more than the first. After this he was on astinus the rest of the day as his main suspect.

This game cannot be real, I... I have no idea what I'm reading.
I just finished a game where everyone I wagoned was bad as opposed to scum, and I'm a little worried because I'm getting those vibes again.
At the same time, I cannot ignore the blatant misrep and simply nonsensical argument with a hint of OMGUS.

Yeah, I was kind of blown away yesterday, and it's only got weirder since. This seems like it is going to be crazy

independent

of the interesting setup.

That said, while I think the vote on Mastin was super douchey, I'm not convinced it came from scum. Mastin came in and did something unexpected and someone voted for it. Esp. if he is town, Mastin picking on him might indicate Mastin's reasoning being bad and even more inspire thoughts of a bad motive. It doesn't look like he's doing much to discredit Mastin with this vote (maybe I'm just hung up on the

result

in that we're all thinking it's an unhelpful dick move rather than suddenly turning on Mastin, but it feels more like lashing out than manipulative discrediting to me.)

The "confirmed town" thing is dumb, but it was on page 2 (or 3, whatever, not checking this far into the post), it's trivially easy for us to point out it was bull, and again feels to me like an off-the-cuff angry reaction to Mastin. And not a particularly well-thought-out one.

Honestly the way Mathdino jumped on it as a misrep made me more nervous than the misrep itself.

casting suspicions at math.

might be something to look at.

I can't figure out Oilura's scumhunting-by-looking-for-scum-being-terrible-at-being scum technique.

@Oilura: I second Teen Girl Squad's question: What would good play for scum be right now, in your opinion?

And let me add to that: Assuming scum are competent players, what do you look for?

questioning oilura. Not really a scum suspicion though.

Sorry, wanted to let some things unfold first.

@Nova: What was it you were waiting for to unfold before making your first post of the game?

questioning nova.

possible suspects? Of them math is probably the only one he had strong suspicions on.

[dragonspawn]

Mastins posts are a bit longer I'll look through them later when I have more time.

[dragonspawn]

VOTE: dragonspawn

Previously-stated reasons plus block-quote IIOA post.

Dragonspawn's vaguely-stated suspicion against Mathdino is based on a misrepresentation of Fink's short ISO, and I don't like that. Whether or not it's actually scummy... I'm unsure, but Math has stated suspicion against dragonspawn, so there's motivation.

that's fairly defensive. I went through finks quotes to look at anyone who he was suggesting might be suspicious. I didn't misrep anything. He openly stated that he was suspicious of math for jumping on the misrep. Whether there is anything to it, I don't know. There is a reason I haven't cast a vote yet. But it does seem wise to ignore evidence or lie about me misrepping the dead.

and scum hunting by looking at the interactions of those who died seems a better strategy the declaring day 1 a wasted day that will tell us nothing since it focused solely on astinus and then tunneling players you suspect because of actions that occurred on day. Your position here is a bit inconsistent

[dragonspawn]

Doesn't seem wise to ignore evidence. I hate autocorrct

[dragonspawn]

Was gonna say the same thing against 2birds except the last part; I only stated suspicion because I PoE'd him.

@dragonspawn: Your NKA sucks. Fink was one of the towniest people in the game. That's it. Scum wants to cut down on the people who they can't lynch.
Mastin? I'm guessing scum either killed her because they agreed with "If Astinus is town, mastin is scum", or because of exactly what she said: she just gets NK'd a lot because she's good like that.

Here's the thing with NKA. If there's not an obvious reason, sure, you can try to second-guess the scum, see who the NK benefits. But in this case, Occam's Razor works best.

I really don't like how you're trying to muddy it up by starting there. NKA is never a good starting point. Furthermore, by no means did Fink display 'strong suspicions' for me. He was a protown player who predictably flipped town.
I never actually got around to ISOing the suspects in my scumlist by PoE, so lemme do that real quick.

nka analysis isn't a good starting point? Why not?

and you seem to think I think my strong suspicions comment is what's throwing causing the miscommunications. I should have said strongest. I wasn't trying to imply fink was arguing that math was definitely scum. I meant to say that math was the one he had the strongest suspicions or concerns on. Others were just questions or random votes.

if you haven't noticed, I didn't vote for math. If I thought it was damning evidence I would have. But the fact is it funk was pretty obviously town. He could have been killed for that. Someone might have killed him to set someone up. They may have also killed him because they thought he was on the other scum team.

so considering the multiple reasons possible I don't think there is anything inherently wrong with going through their interactions. Should I presume you guys dont want me going through mastins interactions or is that okay because he was suspicious of me?

[dragonspawn]

I'm really disappointed in the hammer. And I disagree with your reasoning for it Oilura. A hammer when we had (was it 4 or 5) days left for discussion only benefits scum. I agree that Astinus should have been hammered, her play was weird and anti-town. But I also think there was plenty of more discussion we could have had both with her and others. For example, I was looking forward to seeing what Astinus had to say about Mastin's guess as to why she was playing like that. But, we'll never know now because of the quick hammer. Also, I was planning to spend a couple hours on Saturday morning to do a good full write up on everything that had gone on, but instead I come back from Trick-or-Treating on Friday night to find the thread locked.

Odd. Where I come from, we lynch scum the moment we are sure they are definitely scum.

Apparently they do it differently here.

if you didn't notice, astinus didn't flip scum.

[dragonspawn]

I have a problem here.

On the one hand, I'd like a nice long day today in order to make up for the nine-page D1.

On the other hand, Astinus was something of a black hole D1 and almost all discussion surrounds her; with her and mastin2 dead (the player most closely linked with her, and something of a town leader), I'm actually not seeing a whole lot to discuss. Many of the game's prominent scumreads have a hint of lurkaderpery to them, which doesn't help post analysis.

I'm going to reread tomorrow and hopefully hit game-breakingly good gold, but I do have a really cool plan B if I'm still totally useless after that.

In the meantime, here are some cute

pics

posts of TGS distancing herself from her scumbuddy

UNVOTE: dragonspawn
VOTE: Astinus

UNVOTE: Astinus
VOTE: dragonspawn

UNVOTE: dragonspawn
VOTE: Astinus

I agree that dragonspawn is looking scummy - it seems like he's trying to buddy me a bit?

P-EDIT: Woo, things to do, thank you Riabi.

Dragonspawn certainly hits all the cues for "lazy" (come on, mastin2's posts were the best part of this game), but misrepping the dead and the NJAC inconsistency I pointed out D1 cannot be chalked up to the same excuse. The reason the Fink one hit me so badly was because the ISO is short and concise, yet dspawn still comes away with a bizarro-world interpretation of it, and uses that interpretation to push against a player who happens to be scumreading him (even if only through PoE).

I have very little in the way of reads right now outside of dragonspawn (and players linked to him), but I am extremely sure of that one read.

Oilura is interesting, and something that probably needs to be talked more about. Despite comments I made D1, I am forced to acknowledge that town does indeed derphammer on occasion, and Oilura hasn't played a newbie game. The thing that bugs me about Oilura is not the hammer; it's his defence of the hammer. Town should not seem so desperate to justify casting hammering votes, and that pings.

P-P-EDIT: Uhhh, okay, Oilura, where do you play?

first, I agree oiluras hammer and more especially her defense of it is highly suspicious. It wouldn't be the first time I've seen scum hammer and then defend it immediately. You don't defend a hammer immediately the first day unless you know it was bad. And you usually dont know it was bad unless someone has told you so. That seriously perks my scum senses.

as for your suspicions of me, you have odd interpretations. I was suspicious of astinus. Highly in fact. Most everyone was. But I've already explained how I was using my vote for pressure on different people. It's a common technique to hun scum and get answers from lurkers. Why do you think it's lazy to illicit information from people? Or do you think I should have just hammered astinus before I or anyone else was satisfied with the day?

VOTE: oilura

she was one of mastins suspects too. Her defense of the hammer right off the bat. And a townie pushing for her ends up dead.

[dragonspawn]

The thing that bugs me about Oilura is not the hammer; it's his defence of the hammer. Town should not seem so desperate to justify casting hammering votes, and that pings.

This is precisely what I thought.

On the other hand I am quite suspicious of everyone that has been Badgering Oil for the quickhammer but just because it was a quick hammer. That wasn't particularly damning. There are other things about Oilura that makes me suspicious of him, like Oil's OMGUS vote, giving a pretty bad explanation about someone being scum (playing badly as scum), what bird said, and thinking that lurkers are scum, --> DISCUSS.

I can't help noticing the feeling that there is a fabricated rivalry between Dragonspawn and TGS. also DISCUSS.

you guys need to get the story straight. Is there a fabricated rivalry or am I buddying her?

because quite frankly I haven't focused on teen long enough to do either. I think people are seeing what they want to and the story changes when convenient to push the narrative

[dragonspawn]

Untrue. He said my calling out the misrep made him nervous. NOT that he had 'strong suspicions' for me. Saying he had strong suspicions when he was simply 'nervous' is in fact misrep.

Saying something like "Hmm, here's some evidence that may vaguely point to a protown player, but I'm not going to say anything" is very fencesitty and seems like you're looking for public approval before you make a move. Are you suspicious of me or not? Are you afraid people will jump on you if you say you are?

D1 was not a wasted day. Scumhunting by looking at the interactions of those who are ALIVE is far better. A townflip from the NK in multiball means jackshit, since even the scum couldn't know if they were town or not.

he was the one who said day 1 was a waste. Dont look at me.

I've also been clear from early on that I find you suspicious. I haven't decided of that means you're scum. Hence why I am still looking

[dragonspawn]

I haven't been clear that I was suspicious of you, but you quote my posts where I am suspicious of you and demand I explain why I had those reads. WTH?

either I haven't been clear or I need to explain them. You can't consistently accuse me of both.

I made it clear my suspicion of mastin was gut reaction to his "I'm so awesome" intro. But since I don't know him well enough I wasn't sure if it was actually scummy behavior that was setting me off or his gaming style. The same issue with you. I suspect you but it could just be your gaming style setting off alarms.

btw I can't help but notice the day 1 analysis which was supposedly useless when I did it has suddenly become useful when you are trying to make a case for me. And you guys are saying I'm inconsistent.

[dragonspawn]

I haven't dodged anything. If you didn't notice I answered your question just under where I pointed out your inconsistency. Just because you don't like the answer doesn't mean it's a dodge.

but hey if it makes you happy to tunnel me because I called you suspicious and quoted fink doing the same, feel free. It just gives the scum more ammunition to go after a townie.

[dragonspawn]

I'm not clear, but when I clarify I'm simply restating what I already said.

both you and mastin were gut reactions. But as I hadn't figured out whether it was your game play that annoys me or actually scummy behavior I decided a wait and see approach. I know I am only restating what I said before, but as you didn't understand the previous times, I was hoping another attempt would make it clearer for you.

oddly enough this discussion is clearly showing that your game play annoys the heck out of me. Which is why I'd much rather focus on oilura. Because I don't think it's game play there. There is no reason to be so defensive about a hammer out of the gate if you thought there was nothing wrong with it. That tells me there is a good chance someone chewed him/her out during the night telling him/her to prepare to respond.

so oil, why did you open with a defense of the hammer before anyone posted?

[dragonspawn]

Am I buddying teen girl or in a rivalry or setting her up? I find maths dense of oilura. Interesting. Is that why you are gunning for me? You mad that I'm going at your partner?

[dragonspawn]

Why are you not voting?

trying to rush a lynch?

[dragonspawn]

Just checking in. Been busy since yesterday morning. I noticed some questions for me and I will get to them. But with job hunting and a sick child today I've been busy. Try to get back to it asap

[dragonspawn]

Oilura

, try harder. I understand what your issue is, but scum here are harder to find than on other sites. You won't find them by searching for people who suck at the game. Sort your townreads maybe, use PoE. I assure you that there's scum in the active people of the past 2 pages.

If I use my gut, I would say that guille and Nova are scum.

It is pretty hard to find scum when there are 3+ lurkers (unless lurkers are scum).

if you think nova and guille are scum, why are you voting for njac?

[dragonspawn]

You haven't really taken a stance on Oilura since very early game. But in the latter post you're speculating on what scumteam he's on. What's your current read on him given the meta information? Is he in your lynchpool?

Null-scum, emphasis on "null". He's not in my short-term lynchpool (though that's a very narrow pool), but I wouldn't mind getting him out the way if we earn some free mislynches.

I'm a little unhappy about guille vs Riabi, I was kind of hoping we could all silently agree to townread each other and PoE the game out.

I'm little confused by this. Why would you hope for anyone to silently agree to town read each other? Especially if someone finds another person suspicious? It doesn't make any sense to me.

[dragonspawn]

Wait two seconds math. Sheesh. Takes time to go through everything.


oil is probably my biggest scum read right now. Math probably second. Still haven't seen much fro. Njac or nova so maybe them.

as for birds in still thinking he is town. Misguided about me and I'm not understanding the statement I quoted but still pretty much a town read.

I'll have some more reads later when I can look through everything again.

[dragonspawn]

I was kinda hoping I'd be able to put in more effort D1.
UNVOTE: TGS
VOTE: Astinus

this is probably the first post that made me suspicious of math. It rubbed me the wrong way because why stop putting in an effort when we have a suspect? Even assuming the choice is correct we have three more scum to find. We have interactions between people to watch. There is no need to state there is no more effort needed unless you are looking for a place to park a vote and want an excuse if you get called on lack of activity later.

[dragonspawn]

Fun, first game with mastin and she sextuple-posts xD.

@mastin: Useful questions but I can't really answer many of them; haven't played that many games really. My wiki's kept updated, although I didn't feel like putting this game in because it was abandoned and mostly consists of me translating a post restriction and bickering with scum about setup. I want to make a rule not to self-meta anything recent (at least not in gameposts, so you can make what you will of my play. That said, I played my first 3 games like shit and that was over a year ago, so I think an ISO of Mini 1617 will give you a better impression.

I'm confused as to your read on Astinus. He literally said what he did may not be helpful to VTs, when that's the only town role in the game. Explain?

Oh, yeah, and can someone please get Astinus off L-1 on friggin page 3? Thanks.

looks like he is buddying mastin.

in fact, he jumps on oilura two posts later. At the time I wasn't sure if it was just more buddying of mastin or just reaction to oilura reaction to mastin votes. But it seems to me it could be both.

I wasn't sure if he was scum or it was just the play style since I've never played with him before. I'm leaning scum right now though I think oilura is a better candidate.

[dragonspawn]

I'm not sure I like your certainty in the face of this level of craziness. Any claim that amounts to "I'm not town" obviously needs to be lynched, but I have no idea how anyone can be as confident as you are.

And I'm not sure I like how quickly you're trying to lynch her. There are 3 more scum, and either 1 or 2 perspectives that are going to die tonight. Just because we're going to lynch Astinus doesn't mean we have to do it

right now

. All it does is help the other scumteam get a free pass today for not contributing.
Also, Astinus has a partner assuming she's scum. Keeping the day going gives us more to analyse come D2.

D1 quicklynch has never benefited any town.

totally backtrack of what math was saying when he originally voted astinus

[dragonspawn]

Oh hell I was just ISOing mastin when I realised I came up with the exact same reads as her inadvertently.
Dammit.

Well, I can use mastin's PoE here. I'm almost certain the remaining scum are within {Clusk, dragonspawn, Oilura, TGS, NJAC (iffy on this one), mastin}. Judging by everyone's reactions to Astinus reading through the thread, I don't think anyone's really bussing suspiciously and so far the most suspish reaction is coming from mastin, so going with her as scumpartner.

Of those, Oilura's definitely still my top scumread. Gonna ISO her with a few other players, and then I'll ISO dragonspawn, TGS, and mastin altogether to see if there's any credence to the dragonspawn and TGS both being scum theory.

more buddying of mastin while trying to make it look like he was suspicious of mastin.

interesting that oilura is his top scum read at the end of yesterday and yet he has been on me all of today.

[dragonspawn]

I correctly predicted that the entire day would revolve around Astinus and her dumb move, and when this happens, player interactions are always more difficult to analyse pre-flip when one player goes and hijacks the day. Furthermore, I knew it'd probably end earlier than usual despite our collective best efforts to promote further discussion.

You'll also note that I in no way stopped putting in effort, and I tried to invent a possible strategy to deal with Astinus in order to get more out of that discussion than "Astinus confscum, let's lynch". And at the end of the day, I did watch interactions between people and came up with reads.

If I wanted an excuse to not put in effort, why didn't I follow through with that? 37 was a sarcastic comment, nothing more.

Edit: Implying answering a question to the best of my ability is buddying. I want people to be able to effectively metaread me because it doesn't get us caught up on pointless debates about the past.
Honestly, part of the reason I jumped on Oilura was the comment on mental stability and trying to use that as a reason to lynch mastin. It pissed me off.

Edit2: Uh, how's that a backtrack? I said I was hoping to put in more effort than would be required to lynch Astinus. In 107, I tried to promote that by not encouraging a quicklynch.

because when you realized how scummy it looked you needed to backtrack. Hence the quick unvote and call for more time.

[dragonspawn]

Furthermore, I didn't analyse your ISO yesterday. You were on my suspicions list due to PoE. When I decided to go through it and after seeing the argument that you were buddying TGS, it pinged badly to me.

so back to the claim I'm buddying teen.

the new information we have on makes her much scummier looking. Not less. Maybe you thought staging a conflict day one with her would create doubt on being scum buddies. But it doesn't make sense that your scummiest read some how becomes less scummy when she acts summer.

[dragonspawn]

because when you realized how scummy it looked you needed to backtrack. Hence the quick unvote and call for more time.

I don't think I understand you here. Astinus flipped town. Are you saying I unvoted in order to defend her and not get her lynched? Because this argument only makes sense if Astinus and I were buddies.

I realised how scummy it looked when she first made the self-vote. I backtracked after some bastard put her at L-1 within the first few pages. Guess what? She was hammered anyway .

Maaayyybe the majority of my games have involved a derphammer or a speedlynch of some sort and I'm tired of reckless wagons that cut off discussion.

Edit: Thanks Riabi. And no, I don't care about your random vote, haha. Was just the first post I saw when I meta'd you.

you invited because you realized it looked scummy to say there was no more effort needed and because she was at L1 and it was obvious if she got lynched your vote would look bad.

side: I saw your post riabi and I may have missed some questions. I'll go back and double check later. I don't have any more time to spend here at the moment

[dragonspawn]

Wait two seconds math. Sheesh. Takes time to go through everything.


oil is probably my biggest scum read right now. Math probably second. Still haven't seen much fro. Njac or nova so maybe them.

as for birds in still thinking he is town. Misguided about me and I'm not understanding the statement I quoted but still pretty much a town read.

I'll have some more reads later when I can look through everything again.

Riabi you missed this. He directly answered the questions here.

But yeah, it's crap, mostly due to him seeing a scummy behaviour and assuming everyone else, including me, would find it scummy (which would cause the backpedaling).

Edit: What? I really don't understand you here, DS. The new information on you and TGS makes YOU scummier than it makes TGS. Whether or not TGS is scum with you, on opposite teams, or is town, this isn't affecting my read on you.

what does tgs have to do with our discussion on oil?