Open 479: White Flag (Game Over)

[havingfitz]

VOTE: Huntress for the smiley.

[havingfitz]

It looks very much like a cheeky scumpost (similar to how people used to be like "X and I are totally scumpartners" randomly on Day One, and then they would turn out to be scumpartners). It immediately jumped out to me

I thought this a bit as well when I read #27.

VOTE: Remembering Sunday

[havingfitz]

OK...I still like PJ's comments wrt R.Sunday but they aren't significant enough to ignore other suspects. That said...I think DCLXVI's case on Llama is terrible.

He votes Llama for something that doesn't "

seem

like something he

usually

does." This is after Llama has one solitary post...his RVS vote on DCL. I find it hard to believe Llama has never laid a vote down in RVS without reasoning. He notes that Equinox did the same thing but says it's not as bad because Equinox only put him [DCL] at L-3 vice Llama's L-2 vote. Though he never says the fact Llama's vote was an L-2 vote is part of the reason he suspects him [Llama].

Then he gives three reasons why he voted Llama which I would respond to with 1) this isn't a reason, 2) this isn't a reason and 3) this is a reason but again...it's based on one post....and gut now.

DCL's continued justification of his Llama vote includes two terrible examples of past games which Llama accurately describes here.

Still suspect Remembering Sunday but DCL has passed him on my list.

VOTE: DCLXVI

[havingfitz]

ac unvoted

[havingfitz]

Dodge. Post tomorrow.

[havingfitz]

I'm about 3 pages behind and the soonest I'm going to have time to catch up is

maybe

tomorrow afternoon. Even though I had a vote on Remembering Sunday earlier...I think it would be negligent of me to hammer without doing my catchup first so no hammer from me today (if at all). If he lasts until tomorrow I will either hammer or say why I won't.

[havingfitz]

I'm on the fence about DCL. I want to vote him for my previous vote reasons plus the hammer but I'm second-guessing myself a bit. I almost like the point DCL raises in Post 172 about mbf listing three persons of interest but not including Rachmarie, but I can let it slide because mbf had just joined the game and the Rachmarie vote was not placed by him and he made no comment regarding Rach.

What I do have an problem with is him (mbf) excusing his suspicions towards DCL's "quickhammer" by backing off and saying he didn't realize the deadline was approaching so quickly. I do not believe mbf did not realize the deadline was so close. Why?

Because in his short sample of game posts he comes across as an intelligent person.

Because 2 posts prior to mbf's entrance to the game the mod announced his (mbf's) arrival...states the deadline (which was ~32 hours away) and states that the deadline may be extended (ie it is almost upon us) if mbf (or anyone else ftm) wants it extended. I do not think mbf did not see this post.

Because in his very first post he had done a quick read to find something suspect about Sunday (but says nothing about Rachmarie and doesn't unvote her) and he has established that DCL's wagon had run opposed to Sunday's.

Because for mbf to know that DCL ran opposed to Sunday's wagon mbf would have had to have looked through previous VCs as the last VC before his entrance only showed DCL with 1 vote (by moi) whereas RachMarie and CDB both had 2. So why weren't they the counterwagons? DCL is hardly an obv counter wagon unless mbf was paying attention; in which case he would have known full well the deadline was so close; and, in which case his comments otherwise are misleading.

So VOTE: mikeburnfire

And

FOS

DCL

Also...

mod, I'm v/LA from 1pm EST today until Monday morning.

[havingfitz]

OK...back from v/LA. I have a lot of catching up to do in all my games and will try to get to them all asap.

[havingfitz]

They weren't counterwagons because the case against them wasn't strong.

1 - DCLKXVIIII had a near-full bandwagon early on, but most of those votes shifted to RSunday.

I did a quick read for RSunday because he was on the chopping block. I didn't do one for Rachmarie because she wasn't.

2 - I didn't unvote Rachmarie because I hadn't voted her in the first place.

And no,

3 - I didn't realize deadline was so close. I was looking at player behavior and vote counts.

--------------------------------

4 - In other news, I no longer have a null-read on Rachmarie. The last few posts where she has defended DCVII has increased my suspicion that there is a connection.

1 - You suspected R.Sunday enough you were “planning on voting him” and yet you still give DCL a little flack for hammering (despite calling DCL town a post earlier based on your read on R.Sunday). And you said R.Sunday’s wagon ran opposed to DCL’s. How so? Opposed to me says counter wagon…as in both going at the same time. You seem to be indicating that one followed the other.

Please explain what your point was regarding the DCL and R.Sunday wagons and what they indicate to you.

2 - I would say it’s more common than not for a replacement to unvote any existing votes his predecessor might have in play rather than just let it sit there while at the same time expressing suspicion towards the wagon frontrunner. I.e. supporting the mislynch wagon without actually putting a vote down on it.

3 - I find this hard to believe for reasons already provided.

4 - This would indicate to me that you think Rach is scum because she is defending someone you must also think is scum. Noted.

Day 2 is half-over and we've only had one~two posts each from Acfan, PJ, havingfits, Delibird, huntress, and Hiraki. There's no possible way to find scum if only half the players are playing the game, so it's time to separate the chaff. Kill the lurkers.

So what do you do? You vote petroleum jelly and advocate killing lurkers (aka pushing for a policy lynch). You completely ignore the fact your sights are on CDB, DCL and Huntress. Two of whom make your lurker list. Not to mention the assumed suspicions you have indicated up to this point on DCL and Rach Marie who are both giving you a lot more material to digest.

DLCXVI:

leaning-scum

for reasons I already said

Rachmarie

leaning-scum

for reasons I already said, but also because she hasn't placed a serious vote the entire game.

PJ: He is also pursuing RachMarie, to the point of tunnel-vision. He's being very coy and discreet, not the PJ I remember.

null-leaning-scum

havingfits: Only 7 posts so far. He was on both the DCLXVI and RS wagons, and now his case on me is not good.

null-leaning-incompetent

Delibird: Mostly apologizing for lack of content, but bits of scumhunting can be found here and there.

leaning town

So you have a stronger scum read on DCL and Rach and yet you choose to vote PJ. Based on lurking and meta. Nice.

wrt your read on me….piss off.

Regarding your read on CDB. In Post 167 your sights are on CDB

, DCL and Huntress

. In the quote above (Post 215) you say leaning town. In between those two posts CBD only made one post…a short one liner promising to provide comment shortly. HTF does that transition him from someone you have your sights on to providing bits of scumhunting and leaning town?

Tl:dr;

I find mfb to be inconsistent in his reads and I do not believe everything he is saying (most specifically not realizing we were so close to the deadline on D1). I’m good with my vote on him.

As for Hiraki…how can you NOT take reasoning into account when calling someone else’s opinion “fundamentally horrible?” What parts of the post where I vote mbf do you not comprehend? I do provide the rational for why I vote mbf (compounded by my comments above in this post) and he is more suspect than DCL atm IMO because IMO he is more suspect than DCL atm.

Why are you defending mbf so much? (P. 194, 225)

[havingfitz]

Prod dodge....reading up in here today.

[havingfitz]

Ok...well...that was a quick catch up. We obviously have no idea who scum are. 11 players and 7 wagons. Nothing has changed my mind on mbf.

So when is the deadline now? The 4th?

[havingfitz]

v/LA until Monday morning (for Easter activities)

[havingfitz]

Pj...without ISOing him...I would say I haven't felt too suspicious of Llama. Learning town.

[havingfitz]

Mbf....why aren't you voting anyone and what is your current opinion of Hiraki?

[havingfitz]

You need to use the vote button found in the Preview section or

BOLD

the word

vote

prior to the person's name you are voting for it to count. Abbreviations can be found here: http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?tit ... reviations

[havingfitz]

Interest level seems low.

[havingfitz]

@ Huntress...interest level of others (not all mind you). I've made my thought on mbf and DCL known. Also have suspicions towards Hiraki and slightly towards Rach. A flip would help. On the subject of flips...I see 3 of the people I just mentioned weren't even on the D1 mislynch...so unless scum did their best to avoid the RSunday wagon I'm way off.

[havingfitz]

@pj wrt my Post 314....I typed it to express my opinion at that time time and I submitted it to share said opinion. Seems like a silly question given the IMO obvious answers to your question.

[havingfitz]

Just ISOd mbf and I'm still good with my vote there.

mbf...given all the suspicions you've expressed towards people your current Mert vote doesn't make a lot of sense IMO. It seems to me you have stronger suspicions towards others but aren't voting them.

[havingfitz]

Just ISOd mbf and I'm still good with my vote there.

mbf...given all the suspicions you've expressed towards people your current Mert vote doesn't make a lot of sense IMO. It seems to me you have stronger suspicions towards others but aren't voting them.

See that post I just made? Try reading it this time.

I did read it. Are you being a dick? If so, try not so much.

Do you suspect Mert more than anyone else in the game?

[havingfitz]

So mbf...

Do you suspect Mert more than anyone else in the game?

[havingfitz]

Is CDB really voting Huntress?

[havingfitz]

I'll chime in tomorrow. I would say sorry to mbf...I was wrong. And I was wrong about Hiraki too...who was one of my leading remaining suspects. bleh

[havingfitz]

Meant to get to this game today but RL kept getting in the way. Will try tomorrow.

[havingfitz]

OK...so busy weekend and other games have had this game a bit on the backburner. Catching up from the beginning of day 3:

OK...having read through everything today I'm not liking how RachMarie is behaving. Iirc she has not mentioned me at all this game and her first post today is to echo my sentiments (which were to express regret on my mbf push and surprise that Hiraki was town)...along with burying her nose up Thor's tush.

Then...because Thor has unbrilliantly come to the determination I am scum...Rach is happy to hop aboard. WTF Rach?

@Thor...what pressure are you basing your vote on me on? The pressure prior to your vote (which did not exist?) or the pressure you hoped to gain from placing your vote? And the scumtell was my opening post of day 3 I assume? If so...for shame. That's weak shit. Not sure if it's worked for you before but its off the mark here.

@DCL...regarding my comment about having suspicions towards Hiraki...wtf are you talking about? I do not build a case on Hiraki (because he was one of my lesser suspects) but I more certainly indicate I am suspicious of him

Questioning him here 234, getting an opinion of Hiraki from who I thought was scum here 301, and outright stating it here 316.

And there's my tell described by Thor. Um...no where did I say scum's kill was confusing (though it is) and no where did I say I didn't have reads. If anything...saying hiraki was one of my suspects, but not my top suspect mind you, infers that I have others besides him (ie reads). And yes...Rach is ~slightly buddying you.

And why is she Rach now asking for rationale for voting me?

OK...I'm halfway through page 17 and already finding it hard to concentrate. I'm still suspect of DCL for pre-mbf reasoning but I'm more interested in RachMarie. She has not had a good D3 so far IMO with her shameless sheeping and buddying (Yes Rach...buddying) of Thor on Thor's weak case on me, who I know for a fact is town.

VOTE: Rachmarie

As for Thor...I can't recall having any suspicions towards his predecessor (ACfan)...but after Thor voted me and with Hiraki's push on that slot yesterday in mind...I did ISO AC and I did not see anything that jumped out at me as coming from scum. And I do not think AC replacing out has anything to do with alignment because I replace into games all the time and I would say my rate of being mafia is higher in games I replace into than in games I join from the start. So no...replacing out means nada for alignment. Also...if Thor is in fact town, I do not see why scum would leave him alive over Hiraki when Hiraki had at least received a modicum of suspicion his way while no one iirc was really listening to his suspicions. So....as incredibly awe inspiring a mafia player as Thor is...I mean seriously people...come on....it's Thor. OMG!!!!! It's like Beiber with a beard mania. Why is he still in the game if he's town? And oh by the way...his main accuser died last night instead of him.

Not seeing the Llama suspicions atm but then again, I haven't really looked at them.

tl:dr;

Still suspect DCL. Not liking Rach even moreso at the moment. And why is Thor here? Llama wagon why? Where's Mert?

[havingfitz]

Disregard the where's Mert comment.

[havingfitz]

umm hello he replaced in during the night...

What does this matter? He was announced at the beginngin of night or at least with plenty of time left to be considered as a nk option if he is in fact town.

llama is scum. Crappy case on me is evidence of that.
Rachmarie is scum, doing the t v t thing to look good for whiteknighting me but also to protect her partner llama
fitz is scum cause he is calling me mafia but doesn't have the balls to put me at L-1, instead he puts a lone vote on rachmarie to do some bussing.

That's the scum team right there.

It's early. If Rach wagon doesn't gain traction I will be happy to vote...hammer...whatever...you.

Fitz needs to do more than just OMGUSy style finger pointing.

My voting you has nothing to do with OMGUS. What does your vote on me have to do with? Hint:

[havingfitz]

@ Thor...what pressure are you basing your vote on me on? The pressure prior to your vote (which did not exist?) or the pressure you hoped to gain from placing your vote? And the scumtell was my opening post of day 3 I assume? If so...for shame. That's weak Smurf. Not sure if it's worked for you before but its off the mark here.

1. I didn't base my vote off pressure - I voted because I wished to apply pressure. 2. Yes, that's my scumtell. I understand that you do not agree with the scumtell I am using on you. You haven't agreed in the past when I've lynched you and you were scum either, so...meh.

1. How's that working?

2. Nice story Thor. By a quick search on your name in my topics I see this is the 8th game we've been in together. Of the previous 7 completed games...you only participated in getting me lynched once and you were scum in that game (I was a werewolf).

So your insinuation that you have some past success voting me as scum despite my objections is therefore a bit misleading. Your LONE instance of supporting a lynch on me was scum-motivated.

Our lone game were I actually was scum and you were town...you never so much as looked my way (based on votes) and you replaced out early in the game. Did I mention you were being misleading?

As for agreeing or not....who as scum or town ever agrees with suspicions towards them. I.e. why bring up a completely null observation? The more relevant fact is...you have no valid reason for voting me.

Fun fact: In 5 of our 7 complete games you were scum (3 as a replacement)

So....as incredibly awe inspiring a mafia player as Thor is...I mean seriously people...come on....it's Thor. OMG!!!!! It's like Beiber with a beard mania. Why is he still in the game if he's town? And oh by the way...his main accuser died last night instead of him.

For a guy just making fun of how weak my case is, you're responding with 'why are you still alive?' as a case on me? With this playerlist - Thor is the, by far, standout scumkill? Daaaaaaaaaaaaaw.

I didn't make a case on you. I gave an opinion. As I said...I didn't particularily find ACfan scummy after ISOing him. As for you...when I'm town and people vote me I typically think their reasons are either bad play or scum motivated. So which category would your vote fall under? And how does making a weak case AND not being killed at night not go together? You make it sound like the two don't make sense when if you were scum...they would go hand in hand. And if you are town...my point is you should have been eliminated before you had the opportunity to make a case (good OR bad) on anyone. You might not be the standout scumkill (if you are town) but you would be higher on most lists I would think than Hiraki. No?

So for circumstantial, OMGUS-esque related reasoning, and your weak effort to assign suspicions on me....sure.

FoS Thor

[havingfitz]

Why a FoS???

Looks scummy seriously it is not like he as at L-1 or L-2... I think he has no votes on him? Why the heck the FoS instead of a vote if you think Thor is scum?

Thank you for your concern...I'm voting who I think is scum.

[havingfitz]

1. How's that working?

You're certainly reacting to it so...fine? I would say fine.

Agreed. zzzzzzz

2. Nice story Thor. By a quick search on your name in my topics I see this is the 8th game we've been in together. Of the previous 7 completed games...you only participated in getting me lynched once and you were scum in that game (I was a werewolf).

"The only time you got me lynched I was scum" Is what I'm hearing there fitz. Which...y'know, kinda *supports* what I've said. It actually invalidates it not at all. Also, I'm pretty sure there was a second one where I was a cop - at least I'm recalling that.

The main point is that no one (as town or scum) ever agrees with a case/wagon on them. So to say I haven’t agreed in the past when “you’ve lynched me and I was scum” means nothing. What I take from that comment is an insinuation that you have 1) lynched me as scum more than once (by referring to the past in a general manner without indicating it was only once) and 2) the fact you fail to mention that you were mafia when you got me lynched is IMO misleading. In summary… you have only previously supported a lynch on me once (not twice…not never);, I disagreed with your case (null); and you were mafia when you did it. So your point is null and misleading.

Our lone game were I actually was scum and you were town...you never so much as looked my way (based on votes) and you replaced out early in the game. Did I mention you were being misleading?

And then another time you were barely in a game and I was scum, mwu-ha! Yeah, that invalidates me too. Whut?

Your “another time” comment is just chaff and has no relation to the topic. My point that the lone time I was scum in a game and you never gave me a second glance is relevant. I.e. as town you have no experience making cases on me as scum and disagreeing with a case on oneself is not a tell. So wtf is your point?

As for agreeing or not....who as scum or town ever agrees with suspicions towards them. I.e. why bring up a completely null observation?

Then why bring up that you disagreed if that sort of thing bugs you? It's an equally null observation. Whoo-hoo.

Saying a specific ~tell is weak shit is not null if it’s weak shit…which yours is.. My disagreeing with anything you say towards me is null…but specifically calling out one of the points you are making is not.

Fun fact: In 5 of our 7 complete games you were scum (3 as a replacement)

So...you're saying that makes me more or less scummy in this game? Or is this a null observation - that you hate when I do, but do yourself just fine because it sounds like you're saying something?

It has absolutely nothing to do with the game hence the “Fun fact” preface. I find it amusing that in our previous 7 games you were scum in 5 of them. It has no bearing on this game. Where did I say I hated anything? You are really working hard to cast suspicions on me from nothing.

I didn't make a case on you. I gave an opinion.

Okay, replace when I said 'case' with 'opinion' and then respond to what I said.

I did respond to what you said. Why are you asking me to respond to something that I clearly responded to already (ie right after the word “opinion” )

You might not be the standout scumkill (if you are town) but you would be higher on most lists I would think than Hiraki. No?

I dunno, I don't think I've ever played with Hiraki. But, now answer what I sai - amongst the living, are you ranking me higher than all of them as an obvious scumkill? Because if not, you're bringing up something applicable to multiple players, and then only applying it to me. Which is scummy.

Currently happy with vote. Others should join me.

Yes…I would rank you as an obvious scumkill. So my comment is not scummy.

Others should join you why? Because I expressed remorse at pushing a lynch on MBF and surprise that Hiraki was town? I disagree with that (null) because it is a crap case (fact).

And the fact Rach is happy to jump on such a crap case is extremely suspect IMO which is why I am voting her. Her follow on comments are, to put it nicely, absurd. She has tried to use meta on me which I would be inclined to question her ability to do so even despite the fact she is off the mark in here and she’s somehow saying that my FoSing you…and putting a lone vote on you is somehow suspect in comparison to the lone vote I have on her. If town like that train of thought or the non-existence reasoning you are using to promote the “Lynch Fitz” effort then so be it. But both your votes on me are crap and if I do wind up getting lynched before either of you I hope town has the sense to look your ways afterwards.

@Huntress…I thought my exchange with Thor had sufficed as an answer to your question. To be specific…I would think Thor over them if he was town because I have no experience that I recall with PJ and he hasn’t really been on the mark much today (based on his mbf and Hiraki votes….which ~applies to me as well); nor Llama who I have been in several games with….but he is been in the background quite a bit so may not (assuming he is town) be seen as a threat in this game.

To recap for you though Huntress…I did not find ACfan especially suspect…and what I find suspect wrt Thor is his terrible push on me and the fact he survived last night. Something I have used successfully before to find scum with players who have a strong reputation (whether deserved or not).

Why are you voting me Rach?

[havingfitz]

Hectic day yesterday (living in the Boston area). Will try to get a post in this weekend.

Ahhhh...poor DCL...resigned to having to vote me. Almost against your will even. Poor thing

[havingfitz]

Post weekend catch up...

2.)

Want to lynch fitz?

What's the case on havingfitz? The two biggest strikes against him are (i) his Day Three opening post ("my suspect died, what to do?") which is something I think comes from scum more often than Town, and (ii) his claim that you (Thor665) should have been nightkilled on the night you replaced in because of your perceived status (a standard he has not applied to either LlamaFluff or myself, though perhaps we are lesser known / less loved in this day and age).

Please make a concise case.

PJ…do you really consider either of those points big strikes against me? As for those ~strikes…

i)

I never insinuated what you are saying above. I was annoyed at myself for being off on two players. If you or anyone else wants to equate that to the “Whoa is me…the Doc/cop/~PR was killed last night,” give me a break. It’s not what I did and if I was scum…I would be more careful than to drop such a newbie tell for weaker scumhunters to jump on.

As for

ii)

it is what it is. No offense to anyone’s feelings. There are a few players in this game that have been around awhile, myself included. The fact is…even if you, Llama and I were all town…we’ve had time to voice our opinions and we could still be her because we’re off the mark. Thor on the other hand is coming in new to the game…a fresh set of eyes…and therefore, if town, an unknown factor to scum. Why let a player of such ~esteemed ~reknown make it to the day vice (no offense) Hiraki? It’s something that registers on my radar, and as I’ve already stated…I’ve used it successfully before to find scum. The fact I would not base an entire case on it is probably the only reason I’m not more interested in Thor…despite Rach’s objections.

3.)

Well I do think FoSs especially on someone who has no votes on them to be a scummy move... So yeah atm very happy with my vote....

I have FoS'd several people over the course of the game while voting for somebody else. What differentiates havingfitz's FoS on Thor665 from mine on other players?

Did you ever get a response on this question? I know she ignored mine to her.

Please make a concise case.

I kind of feel you just did for me - why is that not a sheepable case?

Cause it’s crap? Yep…that’s probably it. You continually saying lynch Fitz and saying Burn it with fire aren’t much of a case either.

The main point is that no one (as town or scum) ever agrees with a case/wagon on them. So to say I haven’t agreed in the past when “you’ve lynched me and I was scum” means nothing.

It means just as much as you saying the case is "bad" without specifics as to why or addressing of the case. Which was why you got that answer from me. Is this going somewhere either?

It’s hard to provide specifics on a ~case as weak as what you are pushing on me. If you need clarification though you can find it in my first mention of it as well as above in my reply to PJ. It’s going nowhere I think because you aren’t putting any effort into scumhunting and you’re only providing glib responses.

I.e. as town you have no experience making cases on me as scum and disagreeing with a case on oneself is not a tell. So wtS is your point?

What is your point? Because as far as I can tell its' 'when you scumhunt while scum that has no bearing to your ability to scumhunt as town. Which seems a silly stance to take, but you're arguing it very aggressively.

My point is you make it out like you have some success getting me lynched when I am scum. Yes…a lone instance when I was a wolf and you yourself were scum. I.e. your efforts as scum in a Jungle Republic set up (where you were more interested in saving your own ass than a wolf or your next mislynch) don’t equal what you are trying sell here. Plus the fact…as mentioned already…not agreeing with a case on oneself is null. In summary….you’re pushing a null tell from a situation that is apples to oranges from this one.

My disagreeing with anything you say towards me is null…but specifically calling out one of the points you are making is not.

I'd agree with that if you used your words and provided reasoning beyond "your case is Smurf!" as the disagreement.

If you need clarification though you can find it in my first mention of it as well as above in my reply to PJ.”

It has absolutely nothing to do with the game hence the “Fun fact” preface. I find it amusing that in our previous 7 games you were scum in 5 of them. It has no bearing on this game.

So you said it...why?

Did you miss the part where I said I found the fact amusing? Can I not share IMO amusing mafia related observations that are non-relevant to this game? Why are you dwelling on this?

Yes…I would rank you as an obvious scumkill.

Why? Apparently all I do is make crud cases and have no ability to spot you when you are scum - so why would I be a top scumkill in your mind? Y'know, other than to push a skeevy case on me that is.

You’re trying to be slick here but you’re failing. The fact is…as has been proven by Rach’s reactions to you in this game…you are well regarded on this site (which if anything makes me question my read on Rach). Has she been ooh-ing and aah-ing over anyone else in this game? Not that I can recall. The fact you’re pushing a crap case on me is more likely to come from Thor-scum than Thor-town IMO, which in addition to you avoiding the NK makes the role you are in a lot more suspect than before.

So Thor…what is your read on Rach? How do you like her senseless sheeping of you in voting me and vegie?

What is your read on DCL? Is he town simply because he thinks you are town?

[havingfitz]

Some CDB would be nice.

No luck on the Mert replacement mod?

Unfortunately no. ~gg

If anyone other than Thor would like me to address any of the items discussed in our exchange just let me know. The back and forth seems like a waste of time and space to continue with him as I'm town and his suspicions towards me are shit.

As deadline approaches I would say if the Rach wagon doesn't progress my alternative to it would be DCL.

[havingfitz]

RL overload today...will try to comment nlt tomorrow.

mod....will the deadline be effected at all by the delayed Mert replacement?

[havingfitz]

Rach....this is at least the third time I've asked you this Rach...why are you voting me?

[havingfitz]

@ CDB, wrt post 606...what was I wrong about?

[havingfitz]

DCLXVI being scum.

Ok...so a difference of opinion wrong that is tbd. No argument there.

[havingfitz]

He has defended himself, and sort of poked at Rachel but has been stymied in scumhunting by her master plot of 'not answering a question'.

Yeah...not answering my questions must mean she is town and I should take my suspicions elsewhere. I don't think you are an idiot Thor to please confess to being scum or get your head out of your ass.

Also, going back to look.
Rach has actually answered that question, I'm pretty sure. I just don't think he liked the answer.

Duuuuh....""I'm pretty sure"....."I just don't think"....da'hyurp. Way to commit Thor. She hasn't. You starting to change your mind about her a bit?

Since Fitz seems to have missed my answers Here you go Fitz...

Those aren't answers Rach and if that's the best you can come up with...it just illustrates how poor an effort you are making.

Fitz was under the radar until we called him out for it

So essentially it's a lynch all lurker thing for you? Is that what you're saying? Nice.

OK mod...it's Saturday. We have no idea when the deadline is today, if it still is today, and what is going on with Mert. And you haven't posted since Monday. WTF is up? This is your first prod.

[havingfitz]

You seem to be defending her. But considering all she is doing is sheeping your crap case on me...the one you yourself aren't even voting atm...and which you aren't getting others to support says enough to that point. Unless of course anyone who doesn't agree with you is scum. Then that would explain that

As for floating and being relevant....making a crap case and going "Wanna vote fitz now?" "Want to lynch fitz?" "You going to help me lynch Fitz yet?""In other news, the fitz wagon is still available for those who want to look town after his flip.""Fire. Kill it with.""Support fitz death.

Probably

support CDB death."(so wtf you voting him????) is all real quality work.

Yeah...you're a star this game. I hope for Rach's love for your ability that you are scum.

Oh...and WTF is going on mod?

[havingfitz]

I understand that you are just in desperate terror to defend yourself

What terror? Nice misrep.

Let's at least pretend to have a counter wagon to this derp one.

So you (and DCL) both suspect Rach and yet rather than support her wagon and bring it to a lynch this close to deadline, you vote with her to create 2 L-2 wagons.

That's not town thinking. It's ridiculous.

If there are not at least 2 scum within Thor, DCL and Rach I will be very sadly disappointed.

Huntress and CDB

...your votes aren't doing any good where they are at. Huntress and Mert aren't going to get 5 votes before 1230 EST tomorrow. Unless you prefer my lynch to either Rach or DCL...I would suggest you vote one of them.

I will be around tomorrow (moreso than the rest of today) and able to move to DCL if that becomes a more attainable lynch than Rach's.

[havingfitz]

Huntress and CDB

...your votes aren't doing any good where they are at. Huntress and Mert aren't going to get 5 votes before 1230 EST tomorrow. Unless you prefer my lynch to either Rach or DCL...I would suggest you vote one of them.

I voted Rach in post 582.

Mod: You've got me down as voting twice on the last vote count.

Sorry...I saw you voting Mert.

[havingfitz]

Oh dear gawd town, let's kill this thing already? He is scum, it's painfully obvious.

Obviously it's not. Aside from the lackey/scum in your back pocket...who you think is scum...and DCL...who is a prime suspect in this game and has made no case I can recall on me and is therefore happy to a) vote a mislynch wagon and b) save his own ass. No one else is listening to your rubbish. Did I mention I hope you are scum in this game because if you are town you are a huge letdown in this game.

I am town. You are wrong. And you are playing terribly as town or equally terribly actually as scum.

[havingfitz]

Nice scum banter there between posts 642 and 644.

[havingfitz]

PJ and Huntress...what are you current reads on DCL?

[havingfitz]

She's already been hammered CDB.

We're on a mod delay atm......

[havingfitz]

Kind of want to lynch Llama or Jake.

@DCL what are you thinking?

Seriously? What was the purpose of your VC post Thor?

Since you bothered to put the three lynch counts up....why would you want to go for Llama and Mert when your sans-A VCA shows three people on all three mislynches (Huntress, PJ and DCL)?

At least one of them is scum....I think it's DCL.

VOTE: DCL


Still think Thor is suspect...look...he's still here. Plus he and DCL make a nice couple. #3....no idea atm.

[havingfitz]

@Thor...I would have to agree you are on a lot of lynches (I think for the 6 games we have prior to this one you're on about 73% of lynches).  In half those games you were on every lynch.  But in some you weren't so it's not too indicative of anything.  Also...since you are scum in 5 of those 6 games it's not a real good indicator of how you vote as town. 

Since you seem to think you are on all lynches in most of your games though....why weren't you on Rach's lynch?  You had expressed suspicions towards her and it was approaching deadline...so all the more reason to be on the wagon.  Also...why are you not starting today off with me as your top suspect?  You were suspect enough of me yesterday to not support your ~suspect Rach's wagon?  That seems odd to me.

Why not PJ or Huntress?  They could be scum but they haven't been as suspect IMO as DCL so of those three...my primary suspicion would naturally be towards DCL.  If Huntress, PJ and I were to continue existing in this game my reads could shift towards them depending on who was left and their subsequent actions.  For now though, IMO, first stop is DCL.

I do not know if DCL hard buddies or not.  I suspect him independently of whether he "buddied" you or not.  If he is today's lynch and flips scum I think it will not look good wrt you.  If he's not scum

@PJ...re: CDB.  If I had to guess, just looking at the voting...he was the only person to vote Huntress yesterday so it could be an effort to direct suspicion towards Huntress-town...OR Huntress-scum could have requested CDB's kill to get him of her back.  No way (for town at least) of knowing.  So null.  And agreed...another NK IMO a bit unforeseen.

[havingfitz]

Yeah, that last post by llama makes a llama/fitz team look really likely.

How so?

I really am not liking fitz's "oh look, thor is still alive we must lynch him" It comes across as really scripted and is a ton of wifom. The fact that he is comfortable voting so quickly is also suspicious.

I haven't said it today...yet. How do you know I whether I still suspect Thor?

And where did I say we must lynch him?

And when did I "script" that train of thought? Really? Scripted?

[havingfitz]

@DCL...there is no backtracking on any suspicions I may have towards Thor.  I just didn't recall saying anything today...hence the "yet."  I was mistaken.  How about you address the fact your assertion that I think Thor "must be lynched" because he is still alive. 

Prove that comment.

And as for Thor...my suspicions of him are not strong enough to focus on.  OMGUS and existence aren't enough to make me vote over someone I genuinely suspect.  So I haven't (and am not) pushing for a Thor lynch (iirc) even if I do find it suspect that he is still here.  But I would also say given the IMO unusual choices for NK's...Thor's continued existence might carry less weight than I've been giving it.

[havingfitz]

@DCL...there is no backtracking on any suspicions I may have towards Thor. I just didn't recall saying anything today...hence the "yet." I was mistaken. How about you address the fact your assertion that I think Thor "must be lynched" because he is still alive.

Prove that comment.

[havingfitz]

How about you address the fact your assertion that I think Thor "must be lynched" because he is still alive.

Prove that comment.

[havingfitz]

Welcome to the entire concept of 'why scum buddy town, and not scum'
Derp.

Welcome to the concept of DCL is scum.

[havingfitz]

Llama....PJ and Huntress....thoughts in DCL? (if you have already stated them just quote or update please)

[havingfitz]

We need a mod prod

Seriously...a votecount or a check in every other day or so would be nice. Especially in LYLO.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

FMPOV DCL is pretty much confirmed scum. If we were both town....scum would have had ample opportunity to end the game with all three scum finishing DCL or I off.

We're both still here so one of us is scum. I'm town to viola....DCL is scum.

Vote DCL people.

Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

[havingfitz]

Why do I "sadly" read town?

[havingfitz]

Are you a known alt? I can only think of 2-3 players that have expressed the inclination of avoiding me And based on your play so far I don't see you as being one of them.

[havingfitz]

I actually saw a town crossvote in a 5p lylo and scum waited 3 days to come in and hammer. and they were around posting in the thread...quickhammers in 7p lylo are really unlikely especially since there are 3 players calling me town and if one of them voted me it would be obvious they are scum. So basically that argument is bullshit.

You aren't the wagon they would support

[havingfitz]

Mod...I know you said there is no deadline but that's not going to work.  Please provide a deadline.  We need to agree to a lynch (on scum) a a no lynch would = scum win.  A deadline will ~help keep us focused.

Since the game seems to be in the doldrums at the moment I'm going to look at PJ because of Jake's push on him combined with some things I've noticed in PJ's posts that make me go hmmmmmmmmmmm??

Post 391 is the first explicit mention from you of DCL being a townread that I can find.  Unless the numerous previous issues/suspicions (41, 55, 242, 353, stemming from other's actions wrt DCL could be interpreted as your town read on him. 

Also, the only explanation of why you think DCL is town that I can find is you think he is "lynchbait" and because he suspects Llama (and scum would never do that)...which is essentially the same logic I applied to suspecting Thos after his entrance.  Scum wouldn't keep him a live = scum wouldn't continually go after Llama. 
If you think that logic is a strike against me why isn't it a strike against DCL? 

In Post 648 you reiterate that DCL is your town town read but that

you can't explain it well.

Then...in Post 732 point #6 you tell Jake you have explained why your read on DCL is town several times.  Are you referring to your infrequent mention of him being town because he is lynchbait and as scum, would not go after Llama?  Or was there other reasoning explained several times?  I will agree you have been giving DCL townread treatment the entire game but you have not explained why IMO as you affirm.

Other points I found interesting:

I do not care for PJs repeated broaching of the "taboo topic" of nightkills.  Especially with as odd (as I assume the general consensus would consider them) our NK's have been. 

In Post 238 you use meta (against your own wishes) to address something with mikeburnfire.  I find it funny that in your 1st point to mbf you use the fact that your play has changed over the last six/seven years to answer something and then immediately proceed (in the 2nd point) to undermine something mbf had said by saying if your play was drastically different in this game from a game you played with mbf as scum...how does that make sense?

To summarize that last point...PJ infers his game has changed a lot in the last six/seven years...then uses the fact that he is playing differently in this game from a scum game with mbf SIX/SEVEN years ago to weaken a point from mbf. 

The last thing wrt PJ that made me go hmmmmm was his comment at the end of Post 754 where he voted Jake.  PJ says he is happier to vote Jake (despite no previous suspicions I can find towards the Mert/Jake slot) than to vote me over DCL.  Here he is acknowledging he was "eventually" "going to have to vote" me because it was either me or DCL on whom he has had such a consistent (albeit not easily explained several times) townread.  So we're in LYLO...game on the line.  Prior to this post the only votes in play were me and DCL crossvoting...and yet your only option in your mind is apparently voting me over DCL because you don't want to have to vote DCL?  WTF?  Don't you have any real suspects in this game?  There are three scum left and you are resigned to "eventually" voting me because I'm not DCL?

Did you have a case on me?

Instead of compromising and "eventually" voting me...why not make a case on someone else?  I realize you recently have on Jake but you obviously had the DCL or me dichotomy already locked in.  Why resign to doing something (in LYLO no less) that you appear conflicted about when you could have tried to find scum that did not include DCL or I.  And as far as I can see...your only suspicion of Jake is due to his suspicions towards you (OMGUS <---buzzword alert) and DCL (your not easily explained several times townread).

Lastly...PJ...do you find Jake's push on you (if you were town) to be more likely to come from scum or town?  You categorize yourself with Llama in regards to noteriety but while you are willing to call DCL town for his suspicions towards Llama...why not a similar thought process wrt to Jake's suspicions towards you?  Surely scum would pick an easier target than you to go after?

So yeah, I can see PJ as scum.  He's another one who has been on every mislynch and I find the points I raise above very suspect. 

FOS

petroleumjelly

Still prefer DCL but PJ would be my alternate choice at this point.

[havingfitz]

For what it's worth, I hadn't seen the last two posts prior to my last one.

[havingfitz]

I'm near 100% dC is scum though.

today?

I only want to lynch Thor or PJ so anyone else I don't really want to lynch

[havingfitz]

It's almost like you haven't see my posts that explain why I changed my stance on DC and why I thought PJ/Thor are scum...

"you know being a dick doesn't help, if you are town."

Where does your stance on DCL change?

[havingfitz]

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 7#p4939257

All that does is point out you were mistaken in others' reads on DCL. Unless that is what your case on DCL was...the views of others...the post you link to shows no change in opinion from you that I can see.

Since I could very easily have missed it...could you quote the specific change of heart?

Pedit....

mod...any particular time or should we shoot for midnight on the 17th to be safe?????

[havingfitz]

Really fitz, it didn't take me long to find this. like 30 seconds or so

so going through a few ISOs, especially the dead (NK'd) people and I am pretty sure scum is DCL/Thor

What are you saying you found DCL? Was that the only reason he suspected you? IDFK if it is or not. His reasons for initially suspecting you weren't important to me because I already did suspect you. My point was to understand why his read on you had changed....which he claimed was evident in his reading...and IMO was not. Thanks for chiming in though.

[havingfitz]

I'm town so that Llama vote on me looks fcuking scummy as hell. And Llama....DCL didn't nail anything wrt to my opinion of Thor. I suspected Thor yesterday and maintained that suspicion at the beginning of today. Since today has started he has faded a bit further behind DCL (and now PJ).

[havingfitz]

@Fitz, who would you be voting if you were not voting me?

Not sure now. I still need to read PJs response to me but without considering it I would say PJ. Or perhaps Llama once I read through the LIE you claim to have found.

As for this comment, "Fitzs jump onto llama once I finally start going after him is also looking really opportunistic. In case nobody noticed, " what jump onto Llama are you referring to? My objection to his recent vote on me ( which had nothing to do with anything you said)? How is that jumping on him and opportunistic?

I'll try to get to anything else I need to asap. Busy RL day.

[havingfitz]

DCL...could you elaborate on the LIE you say you caught Llama in?

In Post 801 you say something about our crossvote not happening before Llama made his Post 796.  How is your point correct?  We were crossvoting each other from Post 703 to Post 760.  But as I type this and on further review...I see you are focusing on the post timeframe between Post 649 to Post 693.  When we weren't crossvoting.  Why do you pick that posting range as the window for Llama changing his mind and

where do you get that Post 702 is why Llama is voting me?

While I didn't really like his response to your point regarding the why and when crossvoting has factored into his opinion of me...in his defense he does try to rationalize (wrongly) why his view on me is changing in his Post 707.  When he answered your question in Post 796 we HAD been crossvoting so I could see where the timeframes and events you are pressing him about could be mentally overlapped.

tl:dr;

I'm not sure I see the same lie from Llama that DCL is crying Chicken Little over.

Still to DCL...wrt your Post 818, I get that scum Thor and scum fitz doesn't work (attn Llama...and is in fact not the case because I am not scum) for what I assume you are considering Thor's vigorous efforts to get me lynched yesterday.

However,

Why does scum Thor and town fitz not work?

Why does town Thor and town fitz not work?  Why would town Thor and town me equate to your wagon building up?  That would have nothing to do with your wagon size if Thor and I were both town.
 

@Llama...

why does DCL not continue to work as scum and why can't Thor and I both be town?  That could be a reason why Thor does nothing when DCL and I crossvote.  Thor has maintained the opinion that DCL is town.  So no shock there that he isn't voting DCL.  And though Thor was pushing for my lynch yesterday...apparently a lynch, a flip, and a kill and another flip have put me a bit further down on his suspicion list.  Which was his response when I broached the subject of me not being his primary target today.

I am town Llama and have had you at the very least as not a person of any significant suspicion up to this point.  If the town wincon is your wincon I suggest you unvote me.

And where has Huntress gone off to?  Attn Huntress...we are in LYLO.  Your participation might benefit town.

Mod...any chance of getting a 12 hour early, non-binding, courtesy prod on Huntress?

[havingfitz]

^ Cool

[havingfitz]

As for this comment, "Fitzs jump onto llama once I finally start going after him is also looking really opportunistic. In case nobody noticed, " what jump onto Llama are you referring to? My objection to his recent vote on me ( which had nothing to do with anything you said)? How is that jumping on him and opportunistic?

Typo on my part...that should have been Thor not you. Which should have been obvious given the context of Thor having just voted lama.

What was obvious was your use of my name and my recent reaction to Llamas vote on me. Which is what I thought you meant.

So now you suspect Thor?

[havingfitz]

Why does scum Thor and town fitz not work?

Why does town Thor and town fitz not work? Why would town Thor and town me equate to your wagon building up? That would have nothing to do with your wagon size if Thor and I were both town. 

Scum-thor, town fitz:

that means it was a town v town crossvote between me and you. And no one joined in... why would scumthor come in and not jump on you which would make perfect sense based on his suspicion of you yesterday, instead he backs away from your lynch, which makes no sense if he was truly scum and you were town.

So basically this is what I am thinking in regards to thor right now.

Thor cannot be scum with fitz, and him being scum with fitz as town does not make sense. In other words, there is no scenario for this game in which scum thor makes any sense. Therefor thor must be town.

Scum Thor and scum DCL works. As does town Thor and scum you. Just sayin'.

[havingfitz]

well, I'm approaching this from the perspective of myself being town. and from that PoV there is no logical way for thor to be scum.

@fitz, if you could assume for a moment that I am town, would it then be possible for thor to be scum in your opinion?

Why are you focusing on whether or not Thor could be scum? With your emphasis on the proposition that he couldn't be?

Whether you are town or not...Thor could still be scum. But so could everyone else hypothetically.

fmpov the only thing I think could be somewhat safely suggested is that based on yesterday Thor and I probably aren't both scum...which the same thing could probably be said of you and Llama.

[havingfitz]

@fitz, if you could assume for a moment that I am town, would it then

be possible

for thor to be scum in your opinion?

Whether you are town or not...

Thor could still be scum.

Stop fucking waffling on me and give a straight answer. If I were to be town,

would it make sense

for thor to be scum.

You didn't ask if it made sense...you asked if it was possible. I answered your question. Nice try trying to infer that I don't. As for does it make "sense" if you are town for Thor to be scum? Sure...why couldn't he be? In the mortal words of Thor himself....

Welcome to the entire concept of 'why scum buddy town, and not scum'
Derp.

[havingfitz]

In lylo you don't fucking sheep somebody else's case. You make your own case.

Jake...you called everyone scum today except for me and Huntress. What is your read on Huntress and your current read on Llama and DCL?

[havingfitz]

Are you scum in this game Thor?

[havingfitz]

Are you scum in this game Thor?

I meant to not submit this and apparently I did. Disregard the question Thor. The answer won't do me any good.

[havingfitz]

Probably won't get much posted this weekend in part due to Mother's Day stuff.

[havingfitz]

Jake...why would you make such a big deal about sheeping in LYLO when isn't that what you were essentially doing when you based your early suspicions towards DCL on what others thought of him? And your subsequent change of opinion on him?

Ex:

Jake enters game in LYLO.
Jake thinks all the dead people suspected DCL.
Jake suspects DCL.
Jake realizes perhaps all the dead people DIDN'T suspect DCL.
Jake now has slight town read on DCL.

How is that different from what you are all over Thor about?

[havingfitz]

I always look at who the dead people suspect cause that's that single best way to catch scum.

I assume you have used this method before with success. Can you provide a few examples?

And you have been on Thor about his activity level/effort today...which is fine. But in part you are basing your opinion of his activity level on the fact he is sheeping, and...

In lylo you should not want to sheep if you are town.

Don't you think sheeping dead people (like you are) is as bad as sheeping those who are still alive? Also....just because a townie is dead doesn't mean they were on the right track.

[havingfitz]

I can accept that the opinions of flipped town carry more weight than the living because we can at least assume their opinions/reads are honest. But like I said...that doesn't make them correct. In regards to this train of thought...

when I replace into a game yes I absolutely use this method. I can't provide links cause they are on my alt account

...you have over 3200 posts under this account and appear in 61 topics. Are you saying this is the first game you've replaced into under this account?

And I'm on my phone ATM and don't wanna check this next question... but were either of your votes on PJ or Thor supported by what/who the dead suspected?

[havingfitz]

^ BTW...I thought this was posting shortly after post 900 and didn't realize till now that it had hung up do to preview edit on post 901. So I haven't read the recent dialogue.

[havingfitz]

@Thor...what is your current read on Jake?

Huntress? Huntress? Huntress?

5 days till deadline...town needs to get this right.

[havingfitz]

DCL...who are your top suspects?

Also...I have liked a few of the posts DCL has made today but the fact he was voting me a significant portion of today still leaves me thinking if he was town...that scum would have ended the game by now. The same view applies to Llama as well. His convenient move over from DCL (who suddenly became town) for vote number

2

on me...because he was linking me to Thor doesn't make sense fmpov. Why not go for Thor then instead of making a 2nd vote on someone who you at least appeared to lean town on previously?

[havingfitz]

Hey Huntress....question for you.

[havingfitz]

If I move off DCL it will be on to Llama. 1) for his reasoning in voting me and 2) because fmpov (ie town)...if Llama was town IMO scum would have been able to coordinate my mislynch by now.

[havingfitz]

I'm town. A quick and partial ISO on DCL shows no effort in building a case on me. He's been on every mislynch and was the hammer twice. And he didn't even believe he had it right when he hammered Rach. Why anyone has you as town is beyond me. The only thing that gives me the slightest pause wrt to voting Llama is his push/willingness to get DCL lynched ...though DCL did only max out at L-2 with Llama's support. So still a little wiggle room to back out of a bus.

Like I said...prefer a DCL lynch but will support a Llama wagon if necessary and as an alternative to me getting mislynched.

[havingfitz]

^ EBWOP...I overlooked ACs hammer on mbf. DCL was only the hammer on Rach.

[havingfitz]

Why do I get the feeling from the last few posts that Huntress is suddenly interested in the game and is hovering about to get a timely vote in?  One more errant vote on me and she could hammer for a scum win. 

As for hanging around to vote Llama...I've clearly stated my intent wrt Llama.  He is not my first choice but he is still suspect IMO and given the option of sitting on a DCL wagon what for the most part has gotten no support (till jake's recent vote)...or supporting a wagon for someone I have suspicions of...I'm obviously going to try and get a suspect lynched when one of the alternatives is my mislynch.

You scum Huntress?

I find it suspect that yesterday, in Post 924, you call DCL town (though you are paranoid about it).  But you are half considering voting PJ in part for his claiming DCL is lynchbait which you say is painting a false picture.  You say there have been very few people actively pushing DCL's lynch.  How can you say that when DCL has been the leading counterwagon (or tied with the leading wagon) every day.  He came 2 votes of getting lynched both D1 and D2.  So the fault you find with PJ's assessment of DCL is not accurate.  And yet you are still happy to agree with PJ's reasons (which even he can't exaplain) for finding DCL town.

So you suspect the guy who you erroneously say is painting a picture of the suspicions DCL has garnered and yet you agree with his assessment that DCL is town.  What exactly btw do you agree with (considering one the things I found suspect with PJ is his inability TO explain why he thinks DCL is town)?  Yet you agree with him (PJ)????????  But could half support lynching him (PJ)?????

You lean scum on Llama and town on me...yet you don't want to vote Llama and now suspect me.  Because we are voting the town read you are paranoid about?

And you think DCL comes across as town even though you keep disagreeing with what he says and does. 

That doesn't make any sense.  Plus you have to admit you have been very lurky lately.

I suspect DCL and Llama for reasons already provided.  If I'm wrong on either one of them the game should have been over by now.  If any town are considering dropping a 3rd vote on me I would suggest you don't as that would result in a mislynch and game over...scum win.

  Feel free to call this an appeal of whatever variety but it is just me stating the facts.   

DCL needs to go today.  Then Llama.

[havingfitz]

DCL...despite your Llama suspicions earlier today (the whole lying thing) and your every previous day...you aren't interested in voting him today (atm at least).

Why?

Pedit to Huntress...look where the DCL vote is now. Scum still need to be careful because if town does lynch right today...the remaining scum still need to avoid suspicion for LYLO v.2.

[havingfitz]

Well while we are here...what do I know with 100% certainty?

At least 1 of Jake and Huntress are town. They could still both be town as well. But no way they could both be scum.

Pedit...nice to see you've confirmed Llama is scum as well.

Town seriously needs to come in here and vote DCL ffs.

[havingfitz]

If you are town then the game is already impossible for town to win so who cares.

Why?

[havingfitz]

In all seriousness though, if I were to be lynched and flip scum who would you want lynched tomorrow?

btw, call me dumb if I am wrong here but how is this not an admission of guilt?

^^^ ding ding ding

Can we get a few more DCL votes puh-leeese?

[havingfitz]

That is a fucking hypothetical question.... Really...how the hell is that scummy.

Because if you were town (WHICH YOU ARE NOT) this "hypothetical" question wouldn't even be a consideration because your lynch would mean game over.

[havingfitz]

^ scumflail

[havingfitz]

BTW...I was trying to get you lynched before your little slip. Not because of it. Your lack of case on me and sudden Llama love are more than enough reason.

And there is no if DCL. I am town.

[havingfitz]

Where'd you go Huntress? Just a brief cameo? What's on your mind? You waiting to lay down a hammer?

[havingfitz]

Well don't vote me for annoying you (if that's what your last comment infers). The game's been going on too long for that to be the reason the game ends.

So Huntress....can you envision a scenario where both DCL and I are town considering we both have 2 votes? Assuming you of course are town that would leave three scum with Llama; Jake; Thor and PJ. And with the exception of Llama...all three of them have been around enough since my vote on DCL and DCL/Llama's vote/s on me to end the game.

If you are town you need to vote DCL (unless you have a good answer to the question above that doesn't involve voting me).

No thoughts on DCLs switch on Llama, play in general which you have disagreed with and his ~slip this morning?

[havingfitz]

or until thor/pj is around and you can pull off a quick hammer....

^ this is what I was thinking as well.

[havingfitz]

If PJ comes in and doesn't want to decide between DCL and I...I would vote Llama. With Huntress and PJ both considering DCL for some miraculous reason... 4 on DCL might be difficult.

[havingfitz]

Llama and jake both could have voted me without too much suspicioun as they had both previiously voted me. PJ then could have easily hammered. If they were the scumteam the game would have ended a week ago.

Agreed...those three can not be the scumteam. Because the same comment applies to me when DCL was voting me.

DCL and Llama works.

Just for shits and giggles DCL...if you were town...and had the insight to realize I was town and you were actually wrong...is there any way you could envision Llama being town?

So now does Jake have 2 votes on him? If he is town and either DCL or PJ are town...the game is on the brink of being over. Only 4 people seem to be active at the moment. That may or may not be a good thing.

What are your thoughts on recent events Thor and PJ?

[havingfitz]

Missed a few posts. So Jake is now at L-1. Unless he is scum....or everyone on his wagon is scum....town is screwed.

Thor...are you confident enough in your read on Jake to have him at L-1? I'm not voting him. I voiced suspicions of him earlier but he still is not in my top two. DCL and Llama still hold that honor based on me not being hammered when scum had the chance (assuming either DCL or Llama HAD actually been town).

[havingfitz]

Go back to Llama Thor....I'll join you if you can't bring yourslef to vote DCL.

pedit...because I'm not scum and you aren't suspect enough for me to risk the game.

Thor...unvote and think things out a bit.

[havingfitz]

It doesn't work for at least one reason....I'm not scum.

[havingfitz]

so that means fitz is town like my earlier gut read. I'm town.

That means scum is Thor/llama/PJ/DCL

OMG, it's like I am fucking nostradamous or something.

No Huntress? I'm not saying she is or isn't scum but you aren't. Why?

[havingfitz]

Good night. Fingers crossed there is no town loss when I wake up.

[havingfitz]

VOTE: Llama

I'm pretty sure DCL will still be here tomorrow. Whoever of town is still in this game should vote Llama now and DCL tomorrow.

Just look how they have done a 180 on each other from the entire rest of the game up to until the early stages of today.

[havingfitz]

Clarity is a wonderfully amazing feeling.

How would you know? Unless you're referring to your decision to push my mislynch.

[havingfitz]

Why not DCL now?

Because apparently there aren't 4 townies willing to vote him and I think scum would be averse to bussing in this set up when it really counts.

[havingfitz]

If you are town Jake then fypov I am confirmed town. So sheep me on Llama or explain how I wasn't lynched in the 2-3 days (?) Llama had his vote on me? Leave Thor alone....I'm not convinced he is scum. DCL and Llama are much safer bets.

[havingfitz]

You're not confirmed town to me so you could have been sitting at L-1 and not lynched simply because I didn't suspect you enough to risk the game on it. And you weren't at L-1 long...so the other possibility is that scum didn't hammer because they didn't get in here in time. But Thor had no reason..as scum...to unvote you if you are in fact town. He could have easily called it a night like I had and left you for Llama or Huntress to hammer you.

So stop focking around and vote Llama.

[havingfitz]

Llama - scummy

[havingfitz]

Here's a deal for you. Vote Llama so that the niggling feeling I'm getting that you're his buddy will go away along with my increasing thoughts of voting you.

Voting DCL for a pissing match about a lie is stupid. What lie?

Also...cause I missed it...can you explain again why you are confirmed town?

[havingfitz]

You're not even voting Thor. You're voting the person you ~think could maybe be town just for some pissy comment you are construing as a lie.

And that reason for being confirmed town is shit.

Does a Llama, DCL, Jake scum team work? You could be waiting on that town vote on me to hammer. When you got to L-1 last night DCL was sure as shit quick to unvote you.

I need to look over PJs (and Thor's) case on you. Maybe you are the way to go today.

Pedit. Not very townlike to not give a shit about the opinions of the only confirmed town fypov.

[havingfitz]

DCL...in your assumptions post you accurately note that:

Jake - town

&

havingfitz - town

IS

a possibility

Jake - scum

&

havingfitz - scum

IS

a possibility, and

Jake - town

&

havingfitz - scum

IS NOT

a possibility.

But you leave out the option:

Jake - scum

&

havingfitz - town

IS

a possibility. 

Why is this not a possibility?  It is because I am town and Jake is not confirmed town (ie could still be scum).

So you come to the conclusion that Jake AND I are scum...but instead of playing it safe and voting Jake (who is scum in 2/3 of the possible options above), you decide in your burst of clarity to vote for me....who is TOWN in 2/3 of the possible scenarios.

So why not vote Jake who by your logic absolutely HAS to be scum (whether I am town or not) instead of me (who could still potentially be town by your logic)?

Why?  Because you don't want to really focking vote Jake (as evidenced by your quick retreat when he was at L-1 last night). 

Me having 1-2 votes on me for a significant portion of the day has worked because town hasn't voted me yet.  I.e. Llama and DCL are scum and their partner (JFSF?) is waiting for a townie to vote me.

DCL has lasted at 2 votes for a significant amount of time because he's focking scum and his buddies don't want to bus him in this set up.

Sooooooo....PJ is firm on Jake.  Not sure where Huntress is but I'm pretty sure Thor is flexible on the matter.

tl:dr;

 I would like a DCL or Llama lynch and am growing increasingly suspect of Jake.  But I think DCL and Llama are surer bets.  I'll stick with Llama atm becuase I think his wagon has more support but if DCL get's to 3 I'll hammer him.
 
PJ...would you consider Llama over Jake.  Being inflexible at this point in the game (at least if you have more than one solid suspect) is not conducive to getting all 4 town to vote the same scum.  I'm open to considering Jake but he is still probably behind DCL and Llama IMO.

[havingfitz]

PJ...I'm not voting DCL though I would.

[havingfitz]

Jake..with your 100% confirmed knowledge that I am town... is Llama more likely to be scum or town?

[havingfitz]

Well your own personal battle isn't moving ATM so you have time to give it some thought.

[havingfitz]

Hey PJ and Huntress...let's lynch Llama.

Also...any thoughts on DCLs assertion that Jake has to be scum with me, but even though I still have the potential to be town...he's opting to vote me over Jake?

I will say this...the only thing preventing me from voting Jake is his tenuous (the whole lie thing) willingness to vote DCL. Though his unwillingness to vote Llama is giving me strong doubts about her m being town.

Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

[havingfitz]

Just vote Llama ffs Jake. DCL can go tomorrow.

[havingfitz]

Your rationale for confirming town or scum is pretty fcuked up Jake. You are by no means confirmed town (because of Thor voting you) and though I agree DCL is scum...not because he insinuated you lied. It's almost like kindergarden in here.

DCL...you care to address my posts today directed to you?

[havingfitz]

You seem more sure of DCL than you do if llama, yet you push a llama lynch cause of the resistance.

I feel comfortable with either of their lynches. I'm just realistic enough to see no one other than you and I are supportive ofa DCL lynch. There is however some interest in a Llama lynch. Which I support as well.

[havingfitz]

It is relevant. You're using your assumptions to support your ~case on me but you leave out the possibility I'm town (which coincidentally I am) and instead of voting for the option who appears a higher likelihood of being scum in your assumptions (including the relevant one you omitted)..you opt for the person that could be town. Are you saying I'm more likely to be scum than Jake?

[havingfitz]

^ BTW...I'm not trying to convince you to vote Jake. He may or may not be your partner... it doesn't matter. I'm just trying to illustrate how fcuked up your logic is...how it comes from a scum perspective...so that others aside from me and Jake will vote you. Whether it be today or tomorrow.

[havingfitz]

^ also...this logic should dictate a ~town Llama would support a Jake lynch over my lynch.

I.e.Llama's logic is scum oriented as well.

[havingfitz]

Jake..the I know you are but what am I shit with DCL (and Thor iirc) is getting old.

And IMO DCL is scum...so no need to convince me of that. But could you summarize your case on Thor?

[havingfitz]

Jake...does your other (or one of your other) user names have the initials D.H. ?

[havingfitz]

Move to Llama Jake. Your DCL vote is wasted today and I don't see Thor as a legitimate oprion either.

I would ask those considering voting Jake to vote Llama instead.

[havingfitz]

If you're town I'm going to really be annoyed at your play.

Good night.

[havingfitz]

I started to write this up yesterday but then before I posted it I wasn't sure how much it would help.  I'm stuill not sure but since the subject of DCL and I both possibly being town has come up...I'll post it anyway.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Just looking over the opportunities scum would have had to finish me off with two votes on me.

Llama and DCL on me between 793-794:

nada

Llama and DCL on me between 938-1010:

Jake and Huntress posted in very close proximity to each other  So they definitely are not both scum (though one could be):  No sign of PJ or Llama during this time frame. 

Llama and DCL on me between 1058-now:

PJ and Jake posting together so both can't be scum (though one of them could be).  Huntress posting about 30 minutes after PJ....close enough to coordinate 2 more votes on me if they were both scum (or if either of them were scum with Jake.)

Summary -

I do not think Jake AND Huntress nor Jake AND PJ could be scum.  They could all still be town however.  So this doesn't tell us a lot other than to suggest against a few pairs as scum.


So if DCL was town...he would have needed all three scum to jump on his wagon in addition to my vote.  Have there been many good opportunities for that?

Havingfitz on DCL from 689 till 1062:

  Pg 28 has Thor PJ and Llama all posting a few hours apart (so no coordination op).  Jake shows up and decides DCL is absolutely scum.

Pg 29...Huntress Jake and Llama all post within 16 minutes (decent Coord op is they are all scum).  Thor and PJ closely posting (coord op) with Jake I assume who is always around. 

Pg 30 Llama and Huntress post within 6 minutes of each other.  PJ ~90 minutes later.

Pg 31...PJ and Jake close.  Thor and Llama hours later and apart.

Pg 32...a lot of Llama (and Jake).  Llama votes me.

pg 33...Lots of PJ and Thor in proximity (coord op).  In early am EST hours Thor and Llama are both on.

pg 36...a bunch of Huntress and Jake in proximity.  The last few pages seem to primarily be Thor and Jake going at each other.

Pg 38...a lot of Huntress and Jake. 

Tired of looking this up.  Not seeing any conclusive opportunities for 3+ players online at the same time to coordinate a quicklynch on DCL-town.  Even in those instances where at least three players could be assumed to be present...there is no guarantee all three were scum. 

Havingfitz and Jake on DCL between 944-996:

  Huntress made a few appearances...no one else though.

Summary -

So is it possible DCL could be town and still alive?  Yes...it is possible.  Do I think so?  No.  My D4 vote was parked on him until

this morning

yesterday.  So for over ten days scum (if DCL were town) would have had the opportunity to take advantage of town (me) voting (~town) DCL.  Getting 3 to vote in short order would admittedly be difficult...but if you susbscibe to the possibility that either Jake OR Llama are scum...both of them had expressed enough suspicion on DCL to warrant laying a vote on him.  If either had voted DCL-town...a short 2 vote quicklynch would have been a definite option.

I have been at L-2 since last night and Jake, PJ and Huntress have all made appearances.  The fact I am still around suggests that at least two of these three are town and scum are hoping for a town vote on me to get within L-1 and an easy hammer.

Llama has been at L-2 as well since this morning and despite the presence of Jake, Huntress and PJ...Llama  is still here.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

^^^^  So Like I said...I was going to post this yesterday and then didn't.

I think with some of the absences (particularly PJ and huntress)...there could have been some reservations on scum's part to try and get a quicklynch going.

Here is what we absolutely know beyond a shadow of a doubt:  If Jake is town...I absolutley am not scum (because I could have ended the game the other day.  For the sake of discussion...I will say the possibilities of both Jake and I being town still exist...and from any perspective of mine and Jake's...the possibility of he and I both being scum still exists.  But if anyone even has a shred of doubt that I might be scum (attn Llama)...the safer bet is to vote Jake.  Because me maybe being scum is outweighed by Jake would have to be scum.  So WTF is Llama voting me?  Because he's fcuking scum.

I haven't looked all all the poosible scum teams like Huntress is because it's just not something I typically do.  I'm just trying to get the 1st scum lynched.  My frontrunners are DCL and Llama...though I can see a bit of a case on Jake as well.  I do have some very slight reservations about DCL but I have none wrt Llama.

We need to lynch Llama.

[havingfitz]

So then by fitz's logic I should be town then? Interesting. I'm going to go re-read that.

Or you and Jake are scum and you didn't really want him lynched. That's a possibility as well.

[havingfitz]

actually, a PJ, Thor, huntress team doesn't work.

actually look at the post I just made, those 3 ABSOLUTELY work.

How do those work? If this was the team....both PJ and Huntress have been around enough to vote Llama. And I can't see the three of them not being able to finish off mine or Jake's wagons when we have both been at L-2 for large portions of today.

I'm saying my wagon hasn't worked because town hasn't been on it.
I'm saying Llama's wagon hasn't worked cause it has no scum support.
I'm saying Jake's wagon hasn't happened either because he's scum and for the same reasons as Llama or he's town and scum just haven't been able to sync up (or the team is DCL.Thor..PJ..which I doubt).

[havingfitz]

No, wait, i get your point, the DCL/fitz crossvote.

Unvote: Llama

I'm too tired.
This weekend.
Promise.

Funny. This weekend will be too fcuking late. Deadline is at some unknown time on the 18th.

Mod....what time is the deadline?

By the way town.....a no lynch = scum win. Scum have no incentive to lynch anyone. We need to fcuking vote someone because that gives us a better chance (>0%) than no lynching (0%).

[havingfitz]

So what's up Huntress? You haven't voted yet today. Does the possibility of a no lynch bother you?

[havingfitz]

Where does PJ say anything about a "lack" of NKs?

[havingfitz]

He's not saying we've had a lack of NKs...he just discussed the theory behind the benefits of scum not killing. So I don't see what your issue with him is.

[havingfitz]

If we are trying to scum hunt, what's the point of that discussion?

This I would agree with which is why I questioned PJ earlier today.

Llama still needs to go first though.

[havingfitz]

?

[havingfitz]

Never come across that role before.

I don't see Thor as today's lynch. If you are town....and unless you think the scum team is Thor...DCL...and PJ...then he is not the best option. I do not think that could be the team because PJ and Thor could have finished me off (who you at a minimum know is town).

[havingfitz]

And really Jake...is poe and NK speculation the best you can do? If the people isn't based on the nk's and flips...what is it based on?

[havingfitz]

Damn autocorrect. people = poe

[havingfitz]

It bothers me Huntress because I feel like youhave been a bit lurky and the fact you have failed to put a vote down on whomever your prime suspect is makes me think you could be 1) slow rolling the game in preparation for a no lynch or 2) scum waiting to hammer.  A 3rd option is also a possibility...you could be town that just isn't helping out as much as I would like.  And since I am the genesis of my opinions...that's why it bothers me. 

I would say PJ and Llama...who have both been active less that you have today are also bothering me with their efforts.  But since I suspect and am pushing for Llama's lynch...his absence just makes me feel better about voting him.  While PJ hasn't posted much today...at least when he does...he provides a lot of content.  And I will agree that you have some good content as well...but the hesitation to commit to a wagon...especially if you know who you want to vote...is a bit bothersome this close to deadline.  The more information we get from you (and everybody) the better hunting we can do.  And talk is cheap when it's not backed up by a vote.  If you are town I hope when you do get around to voting that you make the right choice...but at least make a choice.  And not at the deadline.

I'd like to lynch scum today and get to tomorrow but if I have to chose between losing the game to a mislynch or to a no lynch...I'd much rather go down with at least a chance.

On that note...fun fact (IIoA-esque): today in LYLO (which has been going on almost 2 weeks....with the game on the line:

Llama has posted 9 times.  And his posts have been crap.
PJ has posted 16 times....good content and a vote...alignment TBD.
Huntress has posted 24 times...decent content for the most part...but no vote yet.

Vote Llama people (at least if you're town)!

[havingfitz]

VOTE: Llama

I'm pretty sure DCL will still be here tomorrow. Whoever of town is still in this game should vote Llama now and DCL tomorrow.

Just look how they have done a 180 on each other from the entire rest of the game up to until the early stages of today.

[havingfitz]

Well...that includes Llama. And I can't see a PJ vote going anywhere.

The only two wagons I see with enough traction to get anywhere today are yours and Llama's. Which would you prefer?

[havingfitz]

EST?

Thank BTW for clarifying.

[havingfitz]

I would say that attitude does show a lack of effort.

You aren't fcuking lynched [yet] and someone you appear to suspect has garnered suspicion from others. Your unwillingness to vote Llama makes no sense unless you are partners.

[havingfitz]

My reluctance to vote llama is mainly the fact that I haven't seen a good case for him. I can make better cases for PJ/Thor/and even DCL.

That's basically my only reason not voting him.

Off the top of my head...how about:

1) the fact he's voting the only person you know 100% is town.
2) he went over 5 pages with 2 votes on him (one by me...the town guy) and did not get hammered? and
3) his crap 180 from someone you do suspect (DCL) to me?

[havingfitz]

And he's lurking the hell out of today and acting all disoriented when he does most (at least in his last post).

[havingfitz]

1) what did you expect me to say? Llama still needs 2 votes and no one else is around.
2) why does confirmed town fypov make you nervous?

[havingfitz]

Maybe because of the points I've raised and the fact he knows I'm town.

Who would you suggest Jake vote????

[havingfitz]

fitz going quite definitely makes me nervous.

Then why are you following him onto llama?

Maybe because of the points I've raised and the fact he knows I'm town.

Who would you suggest Jake vote????

[havingfitz]

I'm not sure what is going on and I am going to bed in a few minutes. I do see that Huntress has joined me in all of the different variations of scum and town with Jake. The main point being if Jake is town...Huntress and I are both confirmed town. Problem is that only helps Jake-town. If Jake is scum then Huntress and I (who is town) could hypothetically be town or scum.

I will say if we do hit scum today...there is enough confusion in place to make another round of LYLO sure to be just as fun ass today.

[havingfitz]

EBWOP:

fun as today

[havingfitz]

I've made my case on Llama. It could be him and PJ but I have no interest in PJ today.

[havingfitz]

I don't think PJ has traction. With both Llama and I having two votes on us a significant part of today I do not see that team working.

Vote Llama.

And Jake...go back to Llama

p.edit...damnbit...you are seriously pissing me off Jake.

Prove to me why Llama is town. WTF isn't he worthy of today's lynch? Unfcukingbelievable. You are schizo today.

[havingfitz]

Good night.

[havingfitz]

7.) On that point, I will mention that I will be away all of Saturday and I expect a good deal of Sunday. Given the gamestate I will see what I can do about getting access to a computer (at least on Sunday morning).

Hey PJ! And everyone else.

DEADLINE IS TOMORROW AT MIDNIGHT CENTRAL STANDARD TIME!

You don't have Sunday to work with. I honestly think we need a lynch by the end of today as IMO trying to get consensus on a Saturday would be difficult.

[havingfitz]

Huntress...do you have a case on PJ? Will you vote Llama?

Jake...vote Llama. If you are town...and you know I am town...then Llama's move from one townie in LYLO to another should set off all kinds of alarms.


Also...where the fcuk is Thor? This close to a deadline in LYLO is not the time to be absent.

[havingfitz]

Jake

PJ could be scum. Unfortunately...fmpov everybody could. It's all just levels of suspicion with me. Who do I suspect more.

For example...the fact one of the things you would bring against PJ is his amount of posting. How the fcuk does Llama not trump everyone on that point? This contradiction wrt is frustrating.

Do you seriously think Llama could be town? From your pov you...me...and huntress are town. So if you are town you KNOW there are three scum within: PJ, Thor, Llama and DCL.

Is Llama really the least likely of that group to be scum? No fcuking way. He and DCL are the only two in the group fypov to have voted two town. At least DCL is now voting Llama so we give him a slight attaboy for voting scum. That just makes Llama all the more likely to be scum.

PJ is not the lynch today. I have to be honest...I find the aversion to actually lynching Llama to be a reason for suspicion...he is that clear to me.

[havingfitz]

Huntress....what combinations have you ruled out and why. And don't leave yourself out.

[havingfitz]

Actually....with 7 players still in the game, I think there are 210 different combinations for the scum team. (Or 120 combinations from any townie's pov that doesn't include them self).

So too many possibilities IMO to get any value out of it.

So just vote Llama.

Pedit....PJ has a 17-10 post advantage today (if my count is right). In LYLI. When it counts.

[havingfitz]

And I believe DCL is still voting Llama. So that's 2. Your's would be 3.

[havingfitz]

Actually...I think there are 35 unique scum team combinations. 20 if I don't include myself. Like Huntress has above. Math in public fail. I blame Google.

Pedit...missed the last few posts.

[havingfitz]

Jake...who benefits more from extending the deadline? Scum or town?

[havingfitz]

Vote Llama people.

[havingfitz]

One more please.

[havingfitz]

PJ...Huntress...or Thor. Any of your votes on Llama would be appreciated. If you're scum...bus for the town cred. C'mooooooon.

[havingfitz]

OK...so Huntress exits another grouping. The one where town Llama and scum Huntress exist. They could still be scum together (devil's advocate).

[havingfitz]

[havingfitz]

Who's everyone's prime suspect?

I believe the odds favor looking off the Llama wagon. If Thor and Jake are both scum...good on them (not even sure if that combo works or not).

I'm thinking my vote is going to wind up on either PJ or Huntress. But no rush. Town either gets this vote right or they lose.

[havingfitz]

^ and I forgot Huntress was one of your clears Jake. She's not necessarily one of mine though. That does help her a bit. Probably moves me closer to considering PJ atm over her.

[havingfitz]

I'm going to at least think things over.

[havingfitz]

I'm going to reread Day four before doing anything.

This. (

tomorrow zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

)

It'd be nice to hear from Thor and PJ as well.

[havingfitz]

I'm not committed to anyone as scum atm PJ. No woe is me is necessary.

I was going to ask you to reconsider such an early vote but since you and Thor are confirmed scum from Jake's POV...if either of you are town....that makes Jake confirmed dcum from your POVs. So I guess cross voting is acceptable between you three.

[havingfitz]

LlamaFluff -- Jake -- Thor665
LlamaFluff -- Jake -- Huntress
LlamaFluff -- Thor665 -- petroleumjelly
LlamaFluff -- petroleumjelly -- Huntress

FMPOV these are the only possibly scum combinations remaining. 

Jake's failure to be hammered yesterday when both Huntress and I had the opportunity could mean a lot things.  All three of us could be town...Jake could be scum and both Huntress and I could be town...or Jake could be scum with Huntress or me (not). 
 
What this does mean however is that Jake is absolutely locked into the situation where for him to be town....Huntress and I are confirmed town and both PJ and Thor HAVE to be scum. 
Likewise...if either of PJ or Thor are town...they HAVE TO view Jake as confirmed scum.  So Jake's vote this morning on PJ was only a matter of time in coming.

I ruled out the LlamaFluff -- Jake --  petroleumjelly team from consideration because I can't see scum cross voting today.
I ruled out the LlamaFluff -- Thor666 -- Huntress team from consideration because that would mean (in addition to myself) that Jake and PJ were town together (which can't be the case as mentioned above).

Since the most common denominators in the teams above are PJ and Jake...one of them HAS to be scum.  That leaves us in a 50/50 situation (which is the same odds town had coming into today anyway).  But at least it prevents town from getting into a situation where they suspect the other two reamining townies (which would = %100 town loss).

So Thor...go ahead and vote Jake...he is confirmed scum fypov. 

That leaves me and Huntress to sort out the game. 
 
Jake or PJ.  That is the question.

[havingfitz]

%100
reamining

It's early.....

[havingfitz]

Why would PJ consider Huntress? If he thought she was scum that would confirm you were scum. But you're confirmed scum for him anyway. Fhpov your partner could be me if Huntress.

[havingfitz]

EBWOP ...me OR Huntress

[havingfitz]

As I said, why would scum mert/myself kill the one player our slot has been tunneling since the beginning of time? it makes no sense.

WIFOM?

[havingfitz]

Yesterday, assuming Jake is town (which would therefore confirm I am town), there were ten timeframes where town was at L-1 or L-2 and in a position to be mislynched (ie with assumed town on their wagon).  Five of these opportunities are on Jake and five are on me or DCL.  So right off the bat it is obvious that scum missed some opportunities to end the game yesterday.  I will say I don't like the odds of scum missing all ten chances (which fmpov would point to Jake being scum). 

Let's see who was in-thread during those timeframes:

793-794 -- havingfitz at L-2 (DCL + Llama) -- Only lasted 70 minutes till DCL unvoted one post later. 

No chance for a lynch.

937-1010 -- havingfitz at L-2 (DCL + Llama) -- No in-thread appearances by Thor or PJ.  Jake and Huntress posted in close proximity to each other (941-943) (960-965) and a few other periods.  A Jake and Huntress team could have ended it right here.  As Huntress can't be scum unless Jake is scum (based on not lynching Jake) they are not scum together so

Huntress is now confirmed town IMO.

944-996 -- DCL at L-2 (havingfitz + Jake) -- No in-thread appearances by Thor or PJ.  Huntress posts a few times. No chance for a lynch. 

No chance for a lynch.

1010-1024 -- Jake at L-2 (PJ + DCL) -- No posts by Thor, Llama or Huntress until Thor votes Jake in 1024. 

No chance for a lynch.

1024-1037 -- Jake at L-1 (PJ + DCL + Thor) --  No posts by Llama

so no chance for a lynch.

1058-1118 -- havingfitz at L-2 (DCL + Llama) -- PJ made one appearance but not anytime near Thor. 

No chance for a lynch.

1060-1062 - DCL at L-2 (havingfitz + Jake) -- Only lasted 25 minutes.  

No chance for a lynch.

1118-1167 -- Jake at L-2 (PJ + DCL) -- A few posts by Huntress.  None from Llama or Thor. 

No chance for a lynch.

1172-1272 -- Jake at L-2 (PJ + DCL) --  Seven Thor posts near the beginning of this timeframe (between 1:40-2:50am est).  Looks like he is waiting around for a partner to show up.  No Llama though until 18 hours later that day in the evening PM hours (8:42 pm). 

1272-1310 -- Jake at L-1 (PJ + DCL + Llama) -- At which point Llama goes for Jake.  Huntress shows up and doesn't hammer.  Thor is nowhere around until Jake is back to L-4 and he promptly drops the hammer on Llama.

tl:dr;

  this was a useful exercise for me because it confirms to me that Huntress is town.  If she is scum that would mean Jake had to be scum and they both had a chit chat together while I was at L-2.  They could have ended the game but did not.  Huntress is town.

Jake however is still not clear IMO.  With Huntress cleared,

possible scum teams (Llama a given) from my pov are now Jake and Thor, or Thor and PJ.

  I can't really see scum getting into a 1v1 (Jake v PJ) with each other when it would mean their loss if everyone agreed and ignored town.

Thor is the common factor in both of these scum pairs.

I'm going to vote Thor.

  I do not care whether the last scum is PJ or Jake.

Discuss

[havingfitz]

Zzzzzzz

You out of there Huntress?

[havingfitz]

@PJ, what is your take on Thor and why?

[havingfitz]

How convenient. And no going away thoughts.

VOTE: Thor

[havingfitz]

We could vote him for the win.

[havingfitz]

I don't expect Thor (even prior to his vca) and PJ to do a lot of posting. I suspect they will lay low and hold out hope that Huntress somehow gives them a shot at a mislynch. I expect most of my posting is done in this game. I'm not straying on Thor and your (Jake) willingness to vote either of them combined with my determination that Huntress is clear locks in a town read on you.

All yours Huntress.

Pedit. Well ffs. Fmpov and the case I made...Thor is the safest bet. What happened to you leaning Thor at the beginning of the day?

[havingfitz]

And if Jake and I were a team together with Llama...why in LYLO...with the win in our grasp would Llama do a sudden 180 on to me and Jake and I go for him? We could have easily slow rolled the game for a no lynch or stayed on DCL. Yesterday makes no sense from a Jake and me scum perspective. It shouldn't be this difficult.

Just look at Thor the night (around post 1172) I point out in my case on the last page...where he is obviously hanging out in the hopes Llama will make an appearance. If Llama shows up and drops a vote on Jake (as he does the next time he appears iirc) they could have sealed the deal. Likewise...the only thing that saved our asses between posts 1272-1310 is that Thor didn't show up before DCL unvoted Jake.

Scum f'd up yesterday in not getting a mislynch/ no lynch. They don't deserve the win. And I know people don't like it when others self meta but here's a tip for you wrt me. I don't lynch partners when I'm scum. If you can find 1 instance I'll check myself into the nearest Alzheimer's clinic...cause I sure can't recall ever doing it.

[havingfitz]

UNVOTE: while I think about that.

[havingfitz]

Huntress....do you have any doubt that Jake and Thor are not of the same alignment?

[havingfitz]

Why do you have you and Huntress as a possibility but not you and I?

And no...I'm not suggesting Jake and Huntress are a possibility because Huntress is town.

[havingfitz]

OK.

I already cleared you band Huntress as a pair because the two of you didn't hammer me when I was at L-2 and you were having a chat.

[havingfitz]

band = and

#&&#@ phone posting

[havingfitz]

OK...I finished up my case yesterday with the following thoughts:

---

Jake however is still not clear IMO.  With Huntress cleared,

possible scum teams (Llama a given) from my pov are now Jake and Thor, or Thor and PJ.

  I can't really see scum getting into a 1v1 (Jake v PJ) with each other when it would mean their loss if everyone agreed and ignored town.

Thor is the common factor in both of these scum pairs.

I'm going to vote Thor.

  I do not care whether the last scum is PJ or Jake.

---

When I made this post I PJ and Jake were cross voting.  I could not see Jake as scum putting the game on the line like that by voting PJ if they were a pair.  But fine.  Since Jake could have had his finger on the unvote button if PJ got to two votes....let's look at today.  Jake has placed Thor at L-1 and allowed Huntress to post giving her the opportunity to hammer Thor.  If Jake and Thor were really partners I seriously doubt they would put the game on the line like that. 
 
I am convinced that PJ and Thor are the final team but since I don't have the solid confirmation of Jake's alignment like I do Huntress...I'm happy to play devil's advocate and say what if...Jake is scum.
 
Well I'm ruling out Jake and Thor for the aforementioned reasons (which were just a vote stronger clearing from my ruling out a Jake-PJ team earlier today).
I'm ruling out Jake and Huntress becuase if they were a team...the game would have ended yesterday (or today just now with ~town Thor for that matter).
That leaves:
 
PJ-Thor
PJ-Jake
PJ-havingfitz
havingfitz-Thor
havingfitz-Jake
 
I haven't tried to see if there are any reasons to clear me from Huntress's perspective so I don't know how to convince her I'm town other than to reiterate the bits about all the potential bussing that would have been going on yesterday not being necessary or realistic (IMO at least). 
 
That leaves me with a similar pair for scum teams from yesterday except substituting Jake-Thor with Jake-PJ.  PJ is in both sets.  He's the better choice.
 
While it would have been preferable to lynch Thor for the win...if you (Huntress) can't see him as scum...I'm fine with PJ.
 
@Huntress...can you really not see PJ and Thor as a team? 
 
VOTE: petroleumjelly

[havingfitz]

possible scum teams (Llama a given) from my pov are now Jake and Thor

this scum team isn't possible either imo

I basically can't be scum with anyone unless there was some sort of bussing going on, if it wasn't lylo I could see that as a possibility but in lylo, it's not optimal play

That was from yesterday before you let him get to L-1.

[havingfitz]

PJ...I agree with your pt 1 above.  Jake is absolutely locked in to you and Thor as scum and any hesitation in a willingness to vote either of you would be suspect.  But here's the thing.  We absolutely know Huntress is not scum.  She and Jake have had too many opportunities to end the game already and haven't (both D4 and today).  And I know I am not scum.  So fmpov...there are three scum in PJ, Thor and Jake.  And I find yours and Thor's play to be more the suspect of the three.  Your unwillingness to consider who the two scum are and make case on both of them is not helpful to town as who knows...you might actually come across something that would definitively clear or implicate Jake or Thor.  But instead it appears like you are content to underpost and stay locked in on Jake because the two of you are in a 1v1.  If I'm picking between you and Jake my vote says where that sentiment lies.  And the fact that I am town voting you in LYLO and you are still here points to either you being scum...or town and Thor is the last scum (ie no hammer because he's v/LA).  Cause if it was Thor and Jake and Thor had joined me on your wagon....Jake is around enough it seems at all times that finishing you off wouldn't be difficult.  So if you are town...you have to suspect Thor.

Jake...are you willing to vote PJ?  Why no vote on him after I went back to him?  Since he and Thor are equally suspect from your perspective?

2...yes bussing occurs....but it wasn't necessary yesterday from a me with Llama perspective.  I could have stayed on DCL or me and womever my partner was could have joined Huntress on your wagon at the close of the day.  Or I think there was some suspicions pointed towards Thor as well so he would have been an option.  The point is...until Llama did a complete 180 in his read on me AND his read on the person I suspected much of the game (DCL)...he was in no threat of me pushing for his lynch.  So why if he was my partner would we both leave DCL and opt for each other?  We wouldn't.  The game was there for scum to win yesterday.  They didn't need to concern themselves with looking good for town...they need to get the mislynch or no lynch.

3.  This is ridiculous.  To hold the fact I asked for the deadline to be clarified against me (and Jake) is absurd.  Who plays in a game where they do not know how much time they have left in the day?  And then...to just be given a day but no time is equally unacceptable.  6am? 11pm?  Kind of matters.  Knowing how long we have was more conducive to making sure town got a lynch done than not.  And if you are saying scum would not consider the option of trying to get a no lynch for the win you are grasping at straws.  Rather than bus a buddy (Llama) I could have made my way onto a town's wagon or a wagon that had less support.  Absolutely. 

The fact is...I didn't go for the No Lynch.
And the fact is...I did push for scum's lynch.

4. Are we coordinated because we are the two doing most of the posting or because we both suspect you and Thor?  We are in 5 person LYLO....it's going to look a little coordinated when 2 players suspect the same players.  Jake is committed to at least giving lip service to wanting you and Thor lynched whereas you and thor represent 2/3rds of my suspects and in fact are who I suspect more than Jake.  So to say we are coordinated is a bit or a stretch on your part.

So PJ...who is Jake's partner and why?

[havingfitz]

Spoiler: Llama interactions...

D1

Makes no mention of PJ or AC1983fan (aka Thor) in 13 posts.  Also no mention of Mert (aka Jake) or I either.

On

D2

he chats a bit with Mert/Jake (200),
- mentions me as a scumpick (237),
- says MBF and Huntress are his strongest town reads and that he is null on PJ, Mert/Jake, AC/Thor and hiraki,
- answers a PJ question (255) and a long response to PJ (290) in 10 D2 posts.
 

D3

Llama responds to PJ (431),
- says he doesn't get the general town reads on mert/Jake and PJ...everyone else (aside from DCL and CDB) are null (448),
- responds to a Thor question wrt me and says he can see me as scum with DCL (491),
- says he is "not super happy" with my wagon (548),
- questions vegie/CDB on whether they have a town read on me (564),
- calls DCL scum and if DCL is scum..I'm town...says last two are in RM/Thor/PJ/mertJake (578),
- tells RM if she is town....2 of Thor/PJ/mertJake are scum (580),
- discusses me with Thor (586), and
- votes RM because she isn't me (649) in 17 D3 posts.
 

D4

starts off with DCL OR I are scum along with 2/3 of Thor/Jake/PJ (693).  LOL at his two main choices (in LYLO) being town. 
- Next he opines wrt Thor about me possibly being scum (707),
- he responds to a question from me (730) and says he is uneasy about the possibility of me and Thor as scum. 
- He also responds to PJ about NKs. 

Interesting to note that in this post and the last he is asking (almost urging) for Thor to contribute.

 
- Next he says it's between Thor and DCL for him and if DCL is town...Fitz /Thor are scum (769). 
- In 793 he pulls his 180 and votes me...despite just having said it was between DCL and Thor in his previous post.  Spends most of the post making his case on me. 
- In 796 he reiterates that is Thor of Fitz OR it's DCL. 
- Spends the next few posts in an exchange with DCL defending his move from DCL to me. 
- In 1054 he says he is confused and that he would still vote either Fitz or Thor...whichever has the most votes on them.  At this point he is still voting me and is alone (until DCL hops on for a short time). 
- In 1263 he tells jake to unvote him and says Thor and I are scum. 
 
Two posts later he votes Jake...but this I think is based on the fact Jake has cleared me and Llama has no choice.  No more posts.

tl:dr;

  I do not see anything ruling out Jake as a partner for Llama....though it felt like early in D4 he was especially interested in Thor doing more.  I would rank it a toss up based on his ISO as for who I think might be his partner (between Thor and Jake) with PJ in 3rd.  I just have a really hard time thinking Jake and Thor could be partners together when Jake and I were both on Thor yesterday and that left it open for both Huntress AND PJ if town) to come in and end the game.  And Huntress especially had expressed interest in voting Thor to start the day.  So there was a genuine risk of Thor getting lynched today with the support of Jake.  So I can not see Jake and Thor as a team. 

And

fmpov the only other two options for scum teams both contain PJ

,

Time permitting I will look at PJ Thor and Jake later.
 

[havingfitz]

PJ...I stated why you should look for Jake's partner here...

Your unwillingness to consider who the two scum are and make case on both of them is not helpful to town as who knows...you might actually come across something that would definitively clear or implicate Jake or Thor.  But instead it appears like you are content to underpost and stay locked in on Jake because the two of you are in a 1v1.

As for the deadline issue....I've never been in a game with no deadlines. For me...not knowing when the deadline is is unacceptable. It's an asinine point to push.

We aren't double teaming Huntress. From both our pov's she is confirmed town. We want her to vote with us. At the start of the day she was not confirmed town to me so of course I cautioned patience...but with the determination that she was town combined with the fact you and Thor should view Jake as confirmed scum (and vice versa)... the need for patience for most of us is diminished.

As for Jake...I recognize he is a sure thing from your pov but he isn't for me and Huntress. Hypothesizing on his partner can only help town find scum.

Jake...are you willing to vote PJ?  Why no vote on him after I went back to him?  Since he and Thor are equally suspect from your perspective?

^ Jake

[havingfitz]

Already answered you

When you said you weren't voting anyone? Seriously? That's your response?

[havingfitz]

Jake....Thor and PJ are equally scummy fypov. So Thor or PJ makes no difference.

Are you and PJ scum?

[havingfitz]

W T F?

[havingfitz]

Jake....Thor and PJ are equally scummy fypov. So Thor or PJ makes no difference.

Are you and PJ scum?

^ wrt question as to why you aren't willing to vote PJ.

I have already proven that there is no possible way I can be scum with anyone.

Apparently Huntress didn't see your proof and I'd like a refresher on it. Can you replay your proof?

---

@Huntress...I'm not sold on Jake being the last scum. He's not proven yet IMO/fmpov but I still think it's more likely to be Thor and PJ. I would not put a second vote don't on Jake if I were you. You should be in a position to hammer him as for Thor and PJ...Jake is the obviously choice and if either of them is his partner they will be averse to voting him. Don't leave it up to them to hammer Jake.

Have you looked equally at all 4 of us and determined Jake is the surest bet? I would like to see that analysis as well. I hope it's more than gut.

[havingfitz]

Also Huntress...something to consider. I'm voting PJ. Thor and Jake have both posted on site this morning. If they were both scum do you think they could have finished off PJ? I realize yesterday that scum showed an unusual ability to miss out on mislynch opportunities so this one doesn't mean as much but still...Jake and Thor COULD have won it already this morning (and still could) if PJ was town.

Thor...why aren't you in here voting Jake?

[havingfitz]

I just got back from being away the last few hours. I'll catch up and give thoughts/questions asap.

Jake...you need to chill. You pissing off Huntress and insinuating she could be scum is ridiculous. If she was scum the game would have ended by now. And I believe Thor voting PJ puts PJ at L-1 and yet he is still here. I need to digest that.

Thor...you should have voted Jake because from your POV...Jake says he is town and he has cleared both Huntress and I. So Jake is locked in to suspecting both you and PJ as scum. Ie...if Jake is town...you and PJ HAVE to be scum. If you are town...Jake HAS to be scum.

UNVOTE: while I think things out a bit.

[havingfitz]

So thor/PJ is the only possible pair for sure

(barring risky trolling)

So want to hear from PJ.

Still would rather lynch Thor over PJ

but will hammer PJ if need be

.

Jake...prior to my unvote just a few minutes ago PJ was at L-1. If fypov Thor and PJ HAVE to be scum.....why the fuck did you not as a good townie just hammer PJ for the confirmed win from your POV?

Your play today is looking suspect as hell at the moment.