Open 427: PYP X/Y (Day 7)

[Venmar]

Vote: Arugula

Question: Do we claim our roles or no?

[Venmar]

Why do want to be lynched, Om?

He isn't being serious.

7 is a legit number.

[Venmar]

Hoopla brings up a point.

Except OmNom was 10th on the list, i don't see how he would have gotten Vengeful.

[Venmar]

Besides, it's not likely that a vengeful, or anyone ftm, would get their best reads on day 1.

- For OmNom? Oh, you would be surprised.

I am going to claim VT right now, with a failed draft.

[Venmar]

Make sure you don't say what role you tried to get.

- Wasn't planning on it.

[Venmar]

Venmar just flash lit 1-3 on the draft list regardless of his motives.

- Don't act like the scum didn't have those on the top of the list already in their mind to kill or investigate. I didn't reveal what role i tried to draft either.

[Venmar]

Idk that. Don't be speculating, i have no idea what scum have, for all we know they got to draft a role cop.

[Venmar]

No. Naturally, the scum would kill the top drafters. If they have a investigative role, they would investigate them as well.

[Venmar]

For someone who says we shouldn't speculate, you've done more speculating than all players combined.

- Which is...?

[Venmar]

VOTE: Venmar

- Useful as always. My vote is staying on you.

[Venmar]

That was the third vote on me, so i doubt it was pure RVS. You said nothing, so i assumed it was a normal vote. I also assumed we were out of the RVS, but you wanting to keep RVS going is pretty suspicious.

[Venmar]

1. I agree. But it means it wasn't random then.
2. You didn't explain it?
3. By random voting when there is normal discussion around.
4. You were useless in that post, and usually you don't post much content. You are going to haunt me with that game for the rest of my life, and if you are kind enough, i would be glad if you stopped. Bringing up that game every game we're in is not evidence or reasoning.

[Venmar]

White Knight much?

- White Knighting is not a scum tell. It is a null tell.

Actually I'm not aware of any "facts".
Is it a "fact" that scum are looking at the top of the list?

- This is just common logic. You seem to heavily deny it, why?

Who said they (the scum) couldn't actually be at the top of the list themselves?

- No one. Doesn't change the fact that by common logic the scum would still be looking at the top of the list even if they got partners there.

I didn't say that because I don't know. They could be anywhere on the list but, again, you seem to think it's a "fact" town is all on top which suggests you may be the informed minority WKing someone you know to be town.

- This suggests i am town. I thought you said i was scum?

It's unlikely for you BOTH to be scum because it would be irrational for scum to run to the defense of another scum mate so early in the game.
Still you are looking scummy right along with him.

- Now you're just attacking him for even lifting a finger to protect me.

PEdit:
- I only called you useless once. I have no intentions of replacing out in any of my games anymore.
- You're making it serious, which i understand. I unfortunately tend to look scummy in how i play, you take it for granted.

[Venmar]

That's all you got to say?

Arugula isn't bitting scum for me, just being himself right now ( So far ). I am liking a Contra vote though.

Vote: Contrapposto

[Venmar]

No it wasn't. Venmar had two votes and bandwagons often get out of RVS.

- This statement would be true if we were still in RVS at the time.

[Venmar]

No it wasn't. Venmar had two votes and bandwagons often get out of RVS.

- This statement would be true if we were still in RVS at the time.

Who are you to say whether we were out of RVS or not?

- Who are you to say we WERE in RVS? Me and OmNom claimed and there were discussion flying back and forth between several players. I think that is considered out of RVS. I am pretty sure though that your vote is no longer "random", and rather a serious one now, so arguing this does little.

[Venmar]

I realize claiming VT wasn't the best thing to do for those above me in the draft order. While Hoopla's say about the motivation behind my claim is a bit harsh on my part, it is mostly true. I thought it was a good move at the time, clearly I was wrong.

Still comfortable with my vote for the time being.

[Venmar]

@Hoopla, Do you think scum are in the top 3 drafters? As in, have any of them said anything that would tip them off as scum. Interested in what your scum reads are.

Also, Rach hasn't talked yet, if she wasn't prodded yet i would appreciate if that was to be done. She is usually more active as town.

[Venmar]

I was referring to Venmar's post above mine wherein he needlessly confirms that he is comfortable with his vote.

- Why is this such a issue with you? Seems like a weird point for town to focus on.

[Venmar]

Vote: Jal

- Bandwagon away!!

[Venmar]

Why did you feel the need to reinforce that you were still comfortable with your vote on Contrapposto?

- Just something i felt I wanted to say given Contra lost a vote or two at the time.

Why did you feel that claiming VT then was a good move at the time?

- I wanted to try out how it would work out for me. Also, something about he draft results made me want to claim, which i now regret doing honestly, I can see it didn't help those above me. Regardless, it happened.

[Venmar]

Is Hoopla savvy enough to look super duper town as scum?

- Do you see any scum motivation behind Hooplas posts?

[Venmar]

Contra, what is the scum motivation behind me claiming VT on the first page. Trying to get a free get out jail card does not count, at the 4th ranking, unlikely to be pulled by scum.

[Venmar]

[Venmar]

Sorry.

[Venmar]

Not seeing BK scum.

[Venmar]

Skill.

- Lol

[Venmar]

Hoopla is looking very townie to me.

@Contrapposto- Why do you think her number analysis is a bad thing to do right now? I do realize you think it it might be premature and confusing the town like you said, but why is her initiative to investigate players choices in numbers and such a scummy move? I think her analyzation of it is not a bad move. The giant clump of people that chose the number 4 are probably mostly town with 1 possible scum there. There isn't much reason for scum to double or even triple up their number pick, and I think no matter how you want to put it, Hoopla brings up some good points. She also has experience in this setup, so I think she knows what she is talking about.

Although, Hoopla's contradiction saying Scum would double up but then later saying they probably wouldn't, does look bad.

Skill.

- Lol

Seriously? You aren't going to question that? Hoopla can just make assumptions and that's ok?

- What makes you think my "lol" comment meant I supported or didn't question Hoopla's response? Can't see how you could draw me supporting one of the sides with just that three letter comment I made.

[Venmar]

@Venmar
I think you are the type of player that wouldn't accept a BS answer like "skill" from Hoopla. It just unnerved me that you said lol without questioning her flip-flopping assumptions. It makes me even more nervous that you have a townread on her despite admitting her flip-flopping is scummy.

1. The "lol" comment wasn't clear, and I am going to ask you one more time how can you draw the conclusion I am either questioning or supporting Hoopla's comment in a three letter post. What makes you think my comment meant I was accepting the "BS answer" rather than laughing at it because I found it ridiculous? You're trying to make a null comment into a scum or town comment. Why?

2. Her flip-flopping IS scummy, but i personally feel like the other things that she has contributed outweigh that and make me lean town on her.

[Venmar]

Exactly, I didn't clarify what I thought. So why did you draw the conclusion I was accepting her answer if I didn't clarify my answer. You're not really answering my question in how you got that from a three letter word.

PEdit: You're a experienced player in this setup Hoopla, that's why i found the flip-flop scummy. Since you got a lot of experience in it and know the facts with all these numbers, I don't see why your opinion would so suddenly change over the course of 1 game.

[Venmar]

Venmar, I have explained it. You are stretching this out too much.

- I agree. On that note, what is your read on me?

@Venmar So you're skeptical of Hoopla's flip-flopping around meta theory. Although your votes seem to have gravitated around Hoopla's hypothetical scum reads. Why is this? Coincidence?

- Maybe. My vote on Arugula was not based off of anything that Hoopla said, and my existing vote on Jal was exactly what I called it, bandwagoning. I followed Hoopla on the vote, I agreed with her reasoning and i I thought Jal could use the pressure. Also, note my Jal vote was before Hoopla flip flopped, so I don't know what you are getting at.

[Venmar]

Hoopla has made one scummy thing this game, I think everything else outweighs that into a town read.

[Venmar]

Everything else? I'm not going to go back through the whole thread and bring up her entire ISO.

[Venmar]

I have a Town read on her.

[Venmar]

What are you talking about?

You said, "Everything else?" and I asked why you were asking me if it was everything else.

- You're nitpicking my response. By " Everything Else? ", i meant pretty much everything else she has said has been townie, which outweighs that one scummy thing Hoopla has done.

- I thought you said I was town? Why are you feeding this argument?

[Venmar]

You are frustrating me.

- I know that feel bro, I KNOW THAT FEEL.

[Venmar]

Anybody want to answer my last question?

unvote

- What question?

[Venmar]

How about us all voting Pressed Bunson and save Scott the time of trying to find yet another replacement for a probable scum role nobody wants.

Iow, it's my experience that more times than not scum tend to be the ones who replace out.
UNVOTE:
VOTE: Pressed Bunson

- Lol. Your vote is horrible. Your reasoning is also pretty horrible.

[Venmar]

Lol, Contra is backtracking. Cute.

[Venmar]

Kind of unfair to immediately call me scum because I have a townread on your scumread, but okay, I can see the logic behind that.

[Venmar]

Ok, so I will be scum because Hoopla scum decided to cling on to me, okay.

Cobbler, look at the post where i voted for Jal. Answer is right there.

[Venmar]

Yeah, Arugula is lining up lynches with bad logic.

I found myself agreeing with a lot of what Hoopla has had to say ( No Arugula, the fact he put down as town is the not the only reason why ). For now, I am going to unvote Jal and think this through a little bit.

Unvote

[Venmar]

Hoopla is still scum.

She is a good enough player to make that wallpost as scum,

and when she does flip scum, it will be a WIFOMy mess.

- Which also implies she could make that post as town ( which she did ). That is WIFOM itself, your argument stinks.

I don't see how Venmar/Om are auto-town for claiming VT. I think scum are more likely to claim VT in a PYP because they are informed as to whether they got the PR or not. When they just get a goon role PM, they don't think Vanilla, but when they become vanilla due to losing a PR opportunity, claming VT makes more sense.

I don't really know how to explain this :/

- Town is informed whether or not they got the PR or not as well? I don't think Hoopla was trying to connect me to OmNom either, and I can't figure out why you are.

[Venmar]

Would you consider lynching a guaranteed PR in Day 1 the best way to "crack open the game"?

- Claiming a Power Role doesn't make you town, because we all know scum could choose any role in the game. Even if some roles are more likely to be chosen by town, they can still be chosen by scum and that alone makes the claim not much of a town or scum tell. Those on the top of the draft are also in no way "guaranteed" to be power roles, is there any reason why you have reason to believe that? ( I know those near the top are more likely to have one, but it doesn't in anyway make it "guaranteed". )

[Venmar]

@Mod - V/LA until Wednesday, I will have limited access. I am going on a trip with some friends, and I will try my best to keep up.

[Venmar]

I need to make a vote yo.

Vote: Pecan

[Venmar]

Your case is basically you voting Rachmarie because she jumped on you for doing something scummy. No shit her previous read was going to change, what did you expect?

I don't think it is

" more than strong enough "

in my opinion. In other words, I don't buy it.

[Venmar]

Contrapposto, I get what you're saying, you don't have to give me another lecture on why you think RachMarie is scum, I just simply didn't and still don't buy it.

Your latest post also looked a bit like you were trying too hard to look town with the last couple sentences.

[Venmar]

@Venmar: I disagree. It looks like his personality moreso. Also, chances are if it looks like he is trying to be too town, he probably is town being townie. While you're here, what are your thoughts on the Pecan wagon, Andrew, Hoopla, and Cobbler?

- No, if it looks like he is trying to be too town it doesn't indicate he is probably town, it can also indicate scum trying to fit in by attempting to look as townie and pro-town as possible. It's probably WIFOM now that I think about it, so it's probably worth dropping for now. Regardless, I see this move come from scum more than town, as town have less incentive to try and look like shining stars because they aren't trying to fit in so hard unlike scum.

-

Pecan

is my best bet for scum. We need a lynch as well because this day has been pretty long so far and he seems to be a pretty good bet. The wagon itself isn't that much of a worry for me, and the fact Hoopla kind of pushed it a long made me feel a bit better about joining it.

-

Andrew

is a null tell, with a bit of a lean on the town side. This is purely from meta, as this is how he usually plays; sparce posts with weird formatting. But he usually has good things to contribute when he does post. Leaning town for now.

-

Hoopla

is obvious town for me.

-

Cobbler

is a null tell. I don't have a definite read on him yet unfortunately.

[Venmar]

Mafia have day chat? Since when?

[Venmar]

@Petapan - That vote sure did look you chose the larger wagon of the two. Though you did give a decent explanation of why you chose him over Rachmarie, it still sure does look convenient.
@Elmo - Are you going to move your vote somewhere where it's going to do something?
@RachMarie - Same thing as above, are you going to move your vote somewhere where it's going to do something?

Errr. I'm going to look over that big batch of posts where BK and Hoopla come up a lot, i'll see if I got any opinions on that..

[Venmar]

First of all i am going to say that I know BK very well. We played a good more than hand full of games off-site and I can say that and he has the unfortunate experience of going through some very unfortunate deadline lynches, one of which I modded off-site, a game where the mafia basically just deadline lynched everyone, and I think BK's experience has grown into a paranoia.

That being said, I don't like BK's claim and I think his paranoia is a bit over the top because one vote isn't going to swing the whole game into forming a wagon on you. Considering it's Elmo, I don't think you should be that afraid of your lynch, and the premature claim was also not very helpful. If your goal is to survive into Day 2, claiming isn't exactly going to save you during the night, so you basically just ruined your motives by claiming.

BK is worth taking a look at Day 2 if he is still alive.

[Venmar]

@ Jal

Besides the fact that Venmar is already trying way to hard to make it look as if I am trying too hard,
THIS post REALLY bugged me.
Talk about looking contrived.

That post of Venmar is a great example of trying too hard to either throw a weak FoS my way or to look town.
petapan's response didn't look good to me either.

It makes me wonder if we have a 4/7/7 combination for scum.

- So you think my misunderstanding was me trying to FoS you?

- I am not following your case.

[Venmar]

@ peta

Yeah no shit, Sherlock.
It's kinda how day 1 works when trying to sus out scum.
My scope narrows as the days progress.

- So? you're still awfully spread out and as scum that gives a great variety of players to pick from when you think you want to pick someone up as "scum".

[Venmar]

Lol, what did I say? Hoopla was town.

Pecan was scum.. lol. I think that clears Rach as town for being a counter-wagon.

Cleaning house right now though, votes and further thoughts later.

[Venmar]

BK, can you prove your role now?

[Venmar]

How does everyone feel about Contrapposto?

[Venmar]

Looking back at what Hoopla has said, she predicted the scumteam of Arugula, Cobbler, and Pecan. So far she got one of them right and I am willing to agree with her because all three of those have chosen different numbers, thus meaning they didn't double up ( which scum don't do ), and two of them are at the very top of the draft picks. If I had to choose one of these to lynch it would be Arugula, but Cobbler is right behind.

I will also need to look over Jal to see what I can pick up from her posts so far, but for now:

Vote: Arugula

[Venmar]

BK201, don't ignore my question, can you confirm your powerrole like you said you would?

[Venmar]

[Venmar]

Also,
Venmar's VT claim looks even more suspect, in light of what we know, i can see Venmar as scum making his VT claim to create a plausible reason as to why he would still be alive, so close to the top of the draft list.

- How? Dude are you serious? Where have I tried to enforce that as a reason for myself to be town?

I think it's actually possible that scum picked 7/7/8.

- No, scum probably haven't doubled up.

Venmar, what role did you try to get?
I think it's time to figure out if you are lying or not.

- No, i'm not saying.

[Venmar]

Om, why would Arugula go after someone (Hoopla) who was leading pecan's wagon, and a confirmed townie, while bitterly speaking out against it, if he were scum? Is anyone THAT transparent?
Also, in light of the fact pecan was scum vengeful, why would Arugula argue so heavily against his lynch?

- I don't think you realize Arugula chainsaw defense'd on Hoopla while protecting Pecan. Hoopla was also not a confirmed townie at all as well, I don't know where you got that from.

- You're really creeping my scumdar right now, but I believe in Hoopla's reads right now and looked over Jal's ISO, she has agreed with Hoopla's Cobbler and Pecan reads, so I feel that much better about being behind their logic.

[Venmar]

That's exactly why Arugula is probably town. You don't get points very well.
Why would he so loudly and outwardly do that as scum?
Why would scum put a target on their back like that?

- I don't think you understand the meaning of chainsaw defense. Petapan actually explained it fairly well.

Right, so you have two people with essentially the same reads. If they happen to both be wrong on the remainder of their scum reads, and on one or two town reads, then following those reads blindly without question would only be to the detriment of town.

- You should put more faith into the reads of those we knew were town, and especially those coming from Hoopla. Now that we know Hoopla's points aren't WIFOM, we can actually put more faith and thought into them. You should realize Jal was shot by Pecan, and there is probably a reason behind why he got rid of her, and it's worth taking a shot at taking out either Cobbler or Arugula today. If you're just going to treat every shot by the scum as WIFOM then we aren't going to get anywhere.

As far a scumdars go, your's and other's inability or refusal to even consider some of what I'm saying is pinging mine.

- Let me rephrase what you just said.

"You're scummy because you don't agree with me".

[Venmar]

This is what leads me to look at Venmar more closely.
This exchange with pecan.

While pecan appears to be questioning Venmar, it is done in a rather 'soft' manner.
Also, the very end statement looks like scum trying to appear to place a weak FoS on another player, however we now know that pecan was scum so he KNEW Hoopla would flip town, thus creating a reason to say Venmar was town.

- So how does this mean I am connected to being partners with him? If you look at it in a different way, you could also take Pecan's comments as him trying to get closer to me and make me think he is town. In other words, buddying. Scum want to make allies once in a while, it's called manipulation.

- I am going to say this right now that you are now just grasping at straws and pulling on the smallest of things to call me scum. Not to mention how widely spread out you are in your scum reads, you can't seriously think more than 50% of the game is scummy when there are only two scum left in the game. This point and the one below can be taken in a variety of ways, and I don't think it holds much or any water.

I also pointed this inconsistency regarding Arugula having made the statement to begin with

however I don't see scum quoting another scum to clear a third scum. I suppose it's possible but unlikely

unless we are dealing with the suckiest scum team of all time.

I can more easily see scum (pecan) quoting weak town logic (Arugula) to appear formulaic to try clearing another scum buddy(Venmar).

- Look at the above quote in this post and read the bolded part. Now look here and compare. Dafuq? You just went from saying you find it unlikely Pecan would try clear me through Arugula, but here you just said you can see it more likely to be done...

Scum will (should) be trying to create a plausible degree of separation from one another.

- See this doesn't make sense with all of the parts above. Pecan buddying to me and agreeing with us is not going to make him distance or separate from us if we were scum. You just went from saying Pecan was trying to clear us as town ( thus getting

more

associated with us ) to saying scum should be distancing from each other ( thus getting

less

associated with us )

[Venmar]

I also find it kind of suspicious that Contrapposto just went from pushing the belief that me, Pecan, and Arugula are scum to pushing Cobblerfone as scum as well.

[Venmar]

Contra, that's all nice but it doesn't change the fact a lot of your points can be perceived differently, and doesn't change the fact that you contradicted yourself at least twice in the posts i addressed. I also think your case on Rachmarie is unconvincing. Not to mention your scum reads kind of require double ups, which I don't believe in.

[Venmar]

Right now my scum list is Arugula, Cobbler, and maybe Contrapposto. Everyone else is either null, leaning town, or town.

I still stand by my comment that Contrapposto might be trying to look like he is trying too hard to appear townie and look like he is scumhunting. Regardless of the fact that I can see that some of his points are weak and some are stretched, I can feel come genuity in his effort and since he is fairly new, I can let some of it slide. He is still a scum read of mine, but definitely one of the weaker ones.

I would prefer the Arugula lynch to be honest, but if it comes down to it a Cobbler lynch can work as well.

[Venmar]

@All....have you played in any PYP games before this one?

Does anyone know if pecan had?

- This is my first PYP game ever.

- I don't know about Pecan, this was my first game with him.

[Venmar]

I don't think scum have doubled up... I mentioned it multiple times actually.

[Venmar]

Claiming vigilante doesn't clear you as town. One second, I will look back before I do much.

There's also no confirmation that the scumkill was a fail or if they simply didn't make one. How did you know it was the former?

[Venmar]

Arugula, why would you shoot Hoopla? I know you suspected her, but I don't feel like letting you off the hook on the off chance you're scum trying to slip away with a claim that could be believed because of your suspicions on Hoopla.

For now though I can see the case on Cobbler, and I more than willing to compromise on him, as he is my second pick for scum.

Unvote

Vote: Cobbler

[Venmar]

Also, why did you use up your shot on night 1?

[Venmar]

If Cobbler is supposedly the Cop, and Arugula is was a 1-shot vigilante, then I know what Rachmarie's role is but I don't know if I want to reveal that just yet. She can claim herself and I can confirm for you guys if it legit or not, as to prevent her from trying to fake claim or such.

I'm the cop.

Unfortunately, all I learned was that Hoopla was town.

- While I can kind of believe this claim, it doesn't change much of my opinion on you because Hoopla was killed.

@Venmar...Why would you ask such an obvious question of Arugula? And what is the case on Cobbler that you agree with?

- Is there a problem with my question? Arugula won't answer such a question unless he is pressed about it. I think Cobbler could be scum because i'm mostly following what Hoopla and Jal have said before they were killed.

------

- I am willing to lynch Arugula just to see if Cobbler lives through the night tomorrow. Since Pecan and Arugula took the killing roles, the only killing power left in the game should be the mafia, and if there is a doctor, then we can maybe form a follow the cop strategy and potentially break the game. But based off of Cobblers power result, it is hard to believe it when his target was shot dead during the night.

[Venmar]

Fine, I tried to get the Tracker / Jailkeeper role, which is what I believe Rachmarie is.

[Venmar]

Fitz, Arugula was a 1 SHOT vigilante, not a full fledged one. I wanted to know why he shot Hoopla instantly the first night he could rather than save it and form better reads. I find it awfully suspicious that both Arugula and Cobbler ( Hoopla's top picks for scum ) "targeted" her the day she died.

[Venmar]

So you guys think she's scum because she didn't use her power? Seriously?

[Venmar]

OmNom already claimed Vanilla.

[Venmar]

I don't mind being vanilla.
I am slightly annoyed I didn't get my role though

[Venmar]

Not a fan of wagoning someone and then jumping off just because they claimed and then proceed to wagon someone else and do the same until they claim.

Fitz, what do you think of Cobblers investigation on the nights victim? Is it not suspicious?

[Venmar]

BK201 is looking townie if anything for being all paranoid about his role rather than scummy. It's a typical thing I see from town players for the most part.

[Venmar]

We're not lynching Rachmarie today, either Cobbler or Arugula, one of the two.

[Venmar]

Why the fcuk not? Zero content. Continued promised content. Story involving access to internet that does not add up. She is a quality lynch.

- All of those aren't even scummy behavior, more of anti-town. The thing about her internet access should not even matter, I don't see the reasoning behind making her out to be scummy just because she wasn't able to make an action. You're lynching her because of anti-town behavior, and that's bad, especially when it's this early and not really even near MyLo or LyLo, where that reasoning COULD work.

Cobbler...wtf? He's a claimed cop. Why is he worth killing? Present a case that does not involve his draft position and I'll be happy to entertain it.

- Why should his claim matter? While Hoopla was a target of interest for the majority of the game, the investigation result was awfully uninteresting and bland. I don't think my reasoning for Cobbler should be top notch when your reasoning for Rach scum is shit, and Contrapposto makes a better case than you.

Hey Rach....what library does NS go to that is open in the early am hours?

More votes for Rach please.

- Why are you so focused on her and her boyfriends personal life? Just because she wasn't around to make an action? Rachmarie has been having site wide problems in all her games regarding her access and night action capablity. In a recent open game ( Medical Mafia, Completed ) Rachmarie wasn't able to make a night action for the first night, and her activity was minimal as well. She flipped town. I have had no reason to suspect her the whole game and this wagon on her is bad.

[Venmar]

arugula makes no sense as scum from his claim

- Arugula makes sense as scum just because you have said that.

- More seriously, a scum vigilante is actually a pretty strong role, and then there is the mystery of what has happened to the scum factional kill, because I don't see why they would no-kill the first night.

[Venmar]

Okay, Andrew claim.

[Venmar]

Fruit Vendor is totally pimp.

[Venmar]

Fitz, that was a boring investigation by Cobbler. Hoopla was an obvious target for night actions because she was either going to be a giant factor in towns success if she was town, or a giant factor in town's downfall if she was scum. Basically, most of the game already thought she was scum an it's a waste of a investigation to investigate such a high priority target. She was going to get lynched or looked at the next day, it's a waste of an investigation, the right investigation would be on someone like Andrew or Elmo or OmNom, people who are null and keeping away from the game for the most part, people you DONT have a good read on.

Maybe we just believe differently in what is a good and bad investigation, but in mine I think Cobbler could have used it more effectively, if he even is the cop, of course.

This is a setup where roles don't confirm alignment, and i'm not a fan of jumping off of someone's wagon and drop everything just because of one claim and wagon someone else to do the same.

BK, did you use your watch investigation? If you did, please tell me you investigated Hoopla.

[Venmar]

BK, did you use your watch investigation? If you did, please tell me you investigated Hoopla.

[Venmar]

Andrew isn't a bad player, I don't see why you're attacking him at such a low level that you have to insult his skill and playstyle. I don't know if it's your thing to attack and insult people like this, but it's not cool man.

[Venmar]

Andrew might post less than everyone else, but he has good reads. I've seen him win a game with a smart gambit, i've seen him catch scum, and I don't think you have given him enough credit and are just giving him shit for the games you think he did bad in.

I'm not really going to defend Andrew but i'm just ticked off that Fitz has to attack Andrew at such a low level to make a point.

[Venmar]

Well, Hoopla surely wasn't wrong, and neither was I about Rach. The last scum is Klick.

Vote: Klick

PEdit: Lol no.

[Venmar]

Contra if you think Hoopla is one kick ass scumhunter then why are you trying to lynch one of the few reads she said should never be lynched?

[Venmar]

Om: a straight up oddity all the way, I can't stand playing with guys like this because they do nothing but make town's job harder - wanting to eliminate the "?" one way or the other and we have the breathing room.

- You're wanting to lynch the guy because you don't like how he plays. You're not pinning him for scummy play you're pinning him for his playstyle, and at its best I think you're pinning him for anti-town behavior.

Contra, we lynch the Arugula slot today, because like you said, we got room for error now that we got breathing space with Pecan and Cobbler dead. If he does flip town, I am willing to lynch HavingFitz. The last scum is either Klink or Fitz, and I cannot believe OmNom to be scum.

There is no doctor in the setup, Rach didn't JK anyone, Arugula's claim makes some sense while it doesn't explain where the factional scum kill went. It also kind of makes sense for Arugula's meta to try and buss his partner(s) at that stage, he did it once and ended up winning the game for the scum by ridding on a bunch of town credit.

[Venmar]

Okay. I glimpsed.

Now what.

[Venmar]

Like I said Contra, we can do Klick today and then OmNom / Fitz tomorrow.

[Venmar]

Sorry, I fell asleep.

@Venmar: Notice that Cobbler, pecan, and Arugula are all voting Hoopla. And that they are the only ones voting Hoopla.

- And that wagon didn't really attract much attention. OH I WONDER WHY.

[Venmar]

If we're wrong about Klick I can do OmNom or Fitz, one of the two.

We don't know if Rach did JK Fitz or not, and it's awfully hard to determine in my opinion. I've seen players try to pursue their highest scum read during the day but during the night they target someone completely else. It's hard to determine, and i don't know if it was Fitz or not.

Klick today, then Fitz or OmNom tomorrow.

PEdit: Good, I need you buddy

[Venmar]

Fine, i'll bite, but if this lynch doesn't flip scum, we're lynching Klick next.

[Venmar]

Vote: Om of the Nom

[Venmar]

Ughh, I still think Klick is a good lynch even if y'all aren't on my side, but I think I am in favor of going either:

OmNom --> Klick --> Fitz

or

OmNom --> Fitz --> Klick

Keep in mind a new scum suspect might become visible to me depending on who is killed next night, but that's what I am thinking of so far.

[Venmar]

Going to Fitz would mean joining OmNom and Klick, your follow up suspects. Staying on OmNom should feel more reassuring since it's with PetaPan and Me, and I guess Elmo.

I'm still good with a Klick lynch by the way.

[Venmar]

Lol, I kind of said OmNom shouldn't be our lynch.

But let's move on then?

Klick or Fitz?

[Venmar]

Yup, lynch Klick.

[Venmar]

Right, I thought I was.

Vote: Klick

[Venmar]

If you're up for a 1v1 why are you so edgy about us lynching you before Fitz?

[Venmar]

Bull. The whole concept of 1v1 means we lynch the other if the first flips town. By putting the idea alone is a very small towntell, but since you're backing away from doing it the other way around actually means you might have something to hide.

Lynch Klick now.

[Venmar]

I don't follow, you're an alt of Kondi?

[Venmar]

You see, while I appreciate your honesty, i don't think I'm going to let you live past today because I don't trust you. You manipulated me for a while in Bird 7p and from your recent posts it doesn't sound like you are going to follow through on your 1v1 proposal.

The fact alone that you're preparing for tomorrow alone gets me worried which could hint that you KNOW Fitz will flip town.

I can guarantee you that if you're town, I'll lynch Fitz tomorrow.

[Venmar]

Why not lynch you and then Fitz tomorrow? What's wrong with that suggestion?

[Venmar]

You can't give us your take on what to do in LyLo if Fitz is town NOW?

I want to lynch you first because you evidently have a problem with doing the 1v1 the other way around, when your reasoning ( Fitz is hard to lynch ) is nullified by the concept of a 1v1, and the other ( Take on LyLo ) can be answered right now. And don't you dare say you're waiting for the kill, that's just scummy.

[Venmar]

@Mod - If there is only one mafia member left, are they allowed to use their ability along with the factional kill in the same night?

[Venmar]

Kondi, what is you take on Hoopla's town and scum reads?

[Venmar]

Omg this game is giving me a headache, I have no idea what to do.

Unvote

I need to take a look over the players again.

PEdit: Who the hell is Xelath.

[Venmar]

Vote: Klick

Lol, 1v1 agreement?

[Venmar]

I'm not letting Kondi live another day, this is ridiculous and I swear, Hoopla is somekind of a god at scumhunting because NONE of her town or scumreads have been wrong so far. Klick isn't accepting the very basics of 1v1, isn't doing what he promised ( insight into LyLo ) and is instead pushing the lynch of someone else without accepting defeat of the 1v1. I see no other possible scum than Klick right now other than MAYBE Elmo, but even on that assumption, I don't think Klick should be left alive.

Why? I know Kondi, he's an amazing scum player and from the looks of it he's going to just slip past all of us like a weasel and trick those in LyLo, i've seen it happen. Even if Klick is town, not having him in LyLo will make me that much more happier and comfortable.

[Venmar]

How're you confirmed town.

[Venmar]

@PetaPan - I think you're the most town out of this whole group, and I plead for you to see reason and let us lynch Klick. If you don't realize Kondi has basically tricked us into lynching HavingFitz by putting forward his proposal of a 1v1. I think Kondi realize that he needed to lynch Fitz since Fitz generally didn't crack under pressure ( from my experience ) and thus he would be a bad player to keep around in LyLo, and he needs the factional kill to kill off the obvious town players ( BK and Contrapposto ). He also realized Fitz is hard to lynch, so he had to do something to get him lynched.

- Now Kondi isn't manning up to the 1v1 agreement, he isn't giving us his LyLo insight in case Fitz flipped town like he said he would, he isn't doing what he promised he would after Fitz's lynch, he is trying to ignore all of that and is now trying to manipulate the rest of us into lynching Elmo.

If Klick flips town, then fine but it makes me feel much, much better once we go into LyLo because I can't trust Kondi, his actions are kind like scum trying to squeeze away from the grasps of others and trying to manipulate us.

[Venmar]

I also don't realize why people can't assume Klick got the 1-shot Vig role but never used his shot and is now using his fake claim as an excuse and is riding on that town credit. As scum you can't deny it's a bad plan and I can see Arugula being smart and devious enough to come up with such a claim. Basically, you guys are basing him off as town through a mist of pure WIFOM, and I think you guys seriously should cut it out.

As for the wagon analysis, I don't see how it could incriminate Klick as obvious town, I don't understand why the whole scum team piling on a TOWN player wouldn't make much sense, especially considering they were piling on Hoopla, a town player who was a serious threat to them. People appeal to wagons that have numbers, the mafia team has numbers and cooperation to give that illusion, and I don't see why it's so hard to understand why all three of the scum players couldn't be so wary of such a huge threat to them as Hoopla.

[Venmar]

* You can't deny it's not a bad plan

Typo.

[Venmar]

Klick keeps ignoring my points about him not fulfilling his 1v1 proposal and his LyLo insight...

I refuse to lynch Elmo...

[Venmar]

I do not.

[Venmar]

I think you and PetaPan are town. I also think Elmo is town, or at the very least, much more town looking than Klick.

Elmo was one of the three people Hoopla seriously believed to be town. PetaPan was also a town read of hers. While a minor one i agree, I think Petapan has shown some pretty good town qualities.

I don't take Hoopla's reads for granted, as blindly sheeping them wouldn't be the smartest of things to do, but I keep them in mind and the more I watch Klick the more I want to agree more and more with them. Given they haven't been wrong as of yet...

@Petapan - Could you please unvote Elmo?

[Venmar]

Venmar, the fact that you refuse to listen to a word I say is making me doubt you.

- The fact I think you're scum should be a decent explanation on why I am ignoring you. But please, I am all ears, what do you want me to address?

[Venmar]

You also should consider the fact Arugula could have kept his shot, and simply claimed to kill Hoopla to be in the "confimed town" position that you are in. There is no doctor in this game and Rach never protected on night 1, so you can't say the mafia's kill was blocked.

You could say both Arugula and the mafia shot Hoopla, but then we're back in the same position where when Arugula and Cobbler both overlapped on Hoopla, except in this case you replace Cobbler with the mafia. You also can't say Arugula was redirected by Cobbler, because Arugula claimed to have shot Hoopla directly.

Either Arugula lied about using the shot and claimed shooting Hoopla for brownie points, either the mafia no killed ( unlikely ), or both Arugula and the Mafia shot Hoopla. Given that Cobbler was scum, the mafia shooting Hoopla would make sense especially since she was a threat. I can go with option 3, which wouldn't make Klick scum but neither would it make him town because it's WIFOM.

I don't think there's a way to prove you actually DID shoot, I don't think there's a way to prove anything about you being town without relying on WIFOM, and deciding to put our trust in your word.

As for the first part, it's kind of Arugula's meta to hard bus his partner(s), even at that stage. If you look at the tone that Arugula took when lynching Cobbler, it was more of quick and desperate than calm and calculating.

Thinking back, why can't it be clear that Arugula, Cobbler, and Pecan all make perfect sense as scum? They don't overlap with their draft numbers, Arugula and Cobbler are at the top ( Usual scum positioning in draft )... etc.

What do you want me to do Klick? I refuse to lynch Elmo unless you can give me a REALLY good reason on why I should kill him off, I am keeping in mind both of the people you wanted lynched ( OmNom and Fitz ) flipped town, and you're now avoiding the 1v1 deal with this "confirmed town" BS that is based off of some VCA and WIFOM over night 1? Nah, I'd like you to be lynched.

I know Cobbler would want me to lynch Klick. I hope i'm not doing the wrong here, i'm going with my gut now and I trust it enough, forgive me those in the DT if i'm completely wrong.

[Venmar]

Lol if you think I am scum then vote for me rather than balls around on Elmo.

I can't see how Arugula "wasting" his vig shot is a bad exchange for confirmed town status after getting such from the night AND hard bussing his partner in Day 2. Arugula has won from such a gambit before by himself after losing both teammates day 1 and day 2.

[Venmar]

He didn't NEED to waste his shot, just keep it and use the factional kill to imitate as if he DID shoot. Why would Arugula shoot his own teammate when he can shoot Hoopla ( removing his biggest threat ) and get the same satisfaction by bussing Cobbler? Why would he waste the redirection power of Cobbler as well? I don't even think scum can shoot each other either...

Arugula kind of site flopped to try and use it as confirmed status, but at the very least I can assume he did it in a way so that he or his replacement could exploit it. He didn't get around to exploiting it because he was gone before Cobbler flipped, meaning he couldn't use it just yet.

[Venmar]

Honestly you still haven't explained to me why Elmo is scum. Considering I am somewhat sheeping Hoopla's reads, you'll have to be pretty convincing.

Regardless if my case on you is good or not, you're the odd one out of all of us and you're trying to use WIFOM yourself to make yourself look confirmed town, which is a even worse offense than what I might be doing with my read. Add on the fact I don't trust you enough to go into LyLo while thinking the rest of the game is likely town, you have a recipe of me wanting to lynch you after you evaded the rope and instead got OmNom and Fitz lynched, and then one of the people who was probably going to agree with me from the point on after Fitz's lynch was killed, you're my suspect. ( I'm talking about Contra )

[Venmar]

Do you not agree with this read? I sure do. Hoopla also expresses town feelings of the same level towards me, a good townread for Andrew, and a townread nonetheless for PetaPan. But she never made one for you, she listed you as part of the Cobbler / Pecan / Arugula scumteam. She hasn't been wrong so far, why should she be wrong now?

Elmo TeH AzN

is also incredibly likely to be town. When you're as active on site as Elmo is, it's incredibly unlikely you'd not just jump in the game straight away if you knew it has started. Having been scum in a couple of PYP games, you're usually talking quite a bit pregame about numbers and then what roles you got. Having people to talk to pregame means it's highly likely he would have known when the game started, either by himself or when scum were talking to each other in the QT.

Again, like Venmar, you have to ask yourself, is this the sort of thing scum would realistically fake for the sake of getting town points? My answer here is categorically "no". For this play to work as scum, you need to KNOW this tell will look town and then deliberately lurk until page 6 before entering. I find it extremely unlikely that Elmo would ever dream up a gambit that good and on that level. He just isn't that experienced to know that would look extremely town and then be clever enough to exploit it. Occam's razor is applicable in both of these scenarios - is it possible scum were clever enough to exploit meta and post these tells

knowing

how they'd look? Yes. But is it the likeliest explanation? Hell no. It's not even worth considering. The far simpler answer is that they're town.

[Venmar]

Then give me a reason why Elmo is scum as of opposed to being null.

[Venmar]

Then you're not lynching someone on the basis of thinking their scum, see where the problem is in that? Lynching null players isn't a bad idea in most situations, but this isn't one and you haven't made a solid or concrete reason to lynch someone on the basis of them being scum, and I think the closest you got was with your theory of me being scum, but even there you dismissed it.

[Venmar]

@Petapan - Maybe you could shed some light on why YOU are voting for Elmo, do the events between me and Kondi change anything? Does Klick finally revealing that he doesn't have a basis for why Elmo is scum change your opinion of him or Elmo? Where do you stand right now?

PEdit: That's fair enough, but if you can't agree with Hoopla's reasoning's, even though they have been spot on so far, why is everyone else town?

[Venmar]

Also, Kondi why haven't you mentioned your reasonings for wanting to lynch Elmo in the first place when you wanted to lynch him? Why didn't you mention PoE and everyone else being town?

[Venmar]

Sorry, i'll check back if you did mention those.

I want Petapan to explain himself on what his stance is, i need a second head in this right now.

If you believe me questioning mafia daytalk to be convincing, why do you doubt Elmo about him and the mafia thread that Hoopla has proposed as a reason for him being town. Elmo is about as good as me, but with more experience and less vocality, so why do you believe my townslip that is nearly identical to that of Elmo's townslip?

Why is Andrew confirmed town at this stage? I think i can guess why but can you explain yourself?

PEdit: That was last day phase, you could understand my confusion when you didn't use a similar explanation today.

[Venmar]

Okay, well i'm going to wait to see what Petapan thinks and see what Andrew has come up with from his questions.

[Venmar]

I [/b]CAN[/b] believe that, read the end of the third paragraph in my post #1426.

Now that I think about that it would make him town, but it's still WIFOM and we're supposed to take Klicks word. I can't see Andrew, Peta or Elmo being scum at this stage, so if you want you can add PoE as to why I think Klick is scum.

Basically, i'm at the same stage as when i analysed Cobblers choice of "investigation", it was bad. Also worth noting both of the people on Hoopla's wagon "used" their "powers" on her. Like I said on day 2, Cobbler investigating Hoopla was a bad move and a waste if he was a real cop, I am inclined to say the same for Arugula's choice of kill, it's better to kill off the null players then people you're going to dog after the next day, like Arugula.

[Venmar]

While that is true, people you are dogging to be scum are probably scum, and a waste of your power if you're going to guarantee their death the next day. Picking off null players can help you take out players who are avoiding contribution or are just kind of in the dark, all scum attributes.

I'm not going to enforce that reason for why you're scum, but i'm keeping it in mind.

[Venmar]

I'm going to prepare for the worst... I can't see you two ( Andrew and Petapan ) agreeing with me today. I can see where you guys are going from and unless Andrew has a role that I forgot to take in and consider confirming Klick, I think it's all crap and Klick needs to be lynched.

[Venmar]

Help me out here, what am i missing that you're referring to Peta?

[Venmar]

Because.. you know. You're doing anything Elmo?

[Venmar]

Sorry English isn't my first language, I make grammatical errors like that.

I meant to say : " Because... you know, like you've done anything Elmo? "

[Venmar]

This game is really... " WTF " right now.

Elmo, please do something. SOMETHING. I am tired as crap right now and I will make a post tomorrow...

Idk, I don't think Andrew is scum for that, if anything townier. Petapan did speculate his role pretty hard though... I actually don't know what happened there 100%. I still think Kondi is the right lynch.

[Venmar]

So why did Andrew just vote for you? I'm not sold until he clears this up for me.

I'm not hammering anything, and Elmo shouldn't hammer himself either. Elmo, do something please, even if you don't do much I know you're sharper than this, so help us out anyway you can.

[Venmar]

If you KNOW it's going to a 3p LyLo why aren't you trying to help us out?

[Venmar]

Lol, Petapan you know yourself that is a shit explanation. I have played with Andrew before and he is anything but dumb and unaware.

[Venmar]

I'm not hammering Elmo, sorry to break it to you.

Andrew needs to confirm for me that he can prove that Klick shot Arugula, in his own words. Unless that happens Kondi is still my top suspect.

[Venmar]

Andrew, please don't hammer Elmo.

I can compromise on Petapan now that i think about it.

Unvote: Klick

The thing is, Klick or Peta aren't going to hammer, so neither you or I Andrew can get what we want.

[Venmar]

Why are you preparing to recap? I am voting in hopes of ending the game for a town win.

Why can't you say or recap something right now?

[Venmar]

Why would Elmo, as scum, throw in the towel with two people in the game ( Me and Andrew ) who both aren't all that interested in his lynch? This wouldn't be the time throw in the towel.

I am at a crossroads right now, but I still think Klick is a good lynch. If not him then I can probably compromise on Petapan, but not Elmo.

[Venmar]

No, we screwed up last day phase.

I suggest we no-lynch to get 3 people tomorrow.

[Venmar]

Vote: No Lynch

[Venmar]

Vote: No Lynch

[Venmar]

Vote: No Lynch

[Venmar]

Okay, well I am going to have to think through before I really say anything or consider making a vote.

Klick's death just proves to me of how wrong i have been...

Idk.

[Venmar]

Kind of died in here.

Petapan and Elmo, give me your reads and feedback please.

[Venmar]

I am leaning on Petapan scum right now.

To kind of shed some light on this, i looked on to Iamausername's ISO, before he replaced out. I found it pretty suspicious that IMA threw suspicions on Pecan but didn't push on it, while at the same time rather than expanding on it or pursuing anything else, he jumped on the Jal wagon out of pure sheep. This indicated to me his bad support of the Jal wagon while distancing to some extent from Pecan. I see no connection to cobblerfone however from his ISO, but i didn't expect all that much since IMA's post count was limited due to RL issues and all that.

I am keeping Hoopla's reads closely in mind at the same time. I am going to keep her comments on both Elmo and Peta in mind for now.

Now with that said about the IMA portion of Peta's role, i am going to look into Peta's ISO now and then see if i can make a connection between him and Cobblerfone. To note something quickly before i go off to to that, i noted that Peta supported both major wagons the day he came in, regardless of the situation.

[Venmar]

Ok so yeah...

Cobblerfone didn't give me much info regarding Petapan, his reads indicate a town read on Elmo and null read on petapan. I don't know, i can interpret this as him buddying or being friendly to elmo while distancing from petapan. Then Pecan comes in an calls Elmo scum and Petapan null. The thing that overlaps is that they both thought Petapan / IMA was a null read. Peta's slot effectively put him in a easy position where his predecessors inactivity game him an easy pass as a null for a while, which i can see cobbler and pecan taking an advantage of. Now, their changing opinions on Elmo is interesting, cobbler pushed Elmo as scum but then put him as town, while Pecan has elmo down as scum the whole time. Something to consider is that Cobbler lived longer than Pecan and into day 2. There i can understand his scum moivation to change Elmo into a town read to give him some protection in a sense.

Basically, either they both were distancing from Petapan and avoiding putting suspicion on him with scumreads or buddying / making connections with him with townreads, which would make sense for me for Petapan to be their partner. Then again the side for Elmo scum can also make sense to me since they both could have been bussing Elmo, a player who was only a liability due to his inactiveness and little contribution. Cobblers change of read on Elmo could make sense after Pecan's death in an attempt to give Elmo some WIFOM or town credit.

I am not the best at this ISO thing.. but right now I am grasping at some WIFOM that only brought me back to square one, since I can see SOME KIND of connection between Elmo and Pecan / Cobbler, as well as Peta and Pecan / Cobbler. I am going to ISO Petapan now and Elmo, see if i pick up anything there.

Man, i really hate LyLo's... i'm not the best man for this.

[Venmar]

Ok well i went with Elmo first since his was faster... and i don't know what to think. Elmo's reads and votes have been predominantly completely on town members as of what i can see, and he has had little to no intention on pushing on Pecan or Cobbler. His vote on Pecan looked awfully like " Oh okay.... FINE ", like a forced vote as if he had no option left in the world. Not to mention in post 368 Elmo shows his approval of Pecans actions. Given he hasn't given any reads, and hasn't said much else on Pecan, I can probably safely assume this is a town read from Elmo. He makes no reference ever to Cobbler except for post 552 where has says he can compromise on Cobbler. He also makes a small mention of cobbler in the bellow quote...

Aside: Elmo is giving me the scumvibes. I'll try to explain if anyone's curious.

Surprise Surprise I give up with this already.

- Which i don't understand...

So here's the deal with Elmo. He literally makes no real contact with Pecan or Cobbler other than some small comments that don't mean much. This shows that he is ignoring them, and maybe distancing. However, regardless of his small town mentality on Pecan and no opinion of Cobbler, he is willing to compromise on BOTH of them. Except he doesn't actually do that on Cobbler. Add on the fact both Pecan and Cobbler had scum reads on Elmo and tried to "buss" him, I can see the connection between the three of them now.

I also found it hilarious in how Elmo just tunneled into OmNom and BK the whole game, but decides to lay off of BK in post and completely contradicts himself by agreeing with BK and going with BK's train of though in post 1045. Wut? Add on to the fact that Elmo has been hunting down only town players and avoiding contact with the flipped scum players... i am seeing the connection right now.

Scrap my leaning on Petapan for now, i need to factor in Elmo now.

Also, I took a look at the number drafts and both Petapan and Elmo have chosen the number 4... which kind of makes number analysis weak since it's obvious to me that the scum number picks were 1 ( Cobbler ) / 4 ( Peta or Elmo ) / 8 ( Pecan ).

Going to ISO Petapan now. I would appreciate if y'all started to play now.

[Venmar]

Ok sorry i will do the Petapan ISO today, i got a call yesterday and had to go out. I got school today too... so expect something from me at noon at the very earliest.

Why does this game suck so much after the active people died....

[Venmar]

Petapan, i expect something from you at some point, you haven't really been doing or saying much as of late.

This is a hard decision right now... i'll get started on that petapan ISO soon.

[Venmar]

I did a short ISO on Petapan, and i'm still wary on his jump on the two biggest wagons during Day 1. I'm also curious as to why PetaPan was so sure and positive that Arugula and Cobbler made no sense as scum. Although i do apologize for being so obtuse and blindsighted with the Klick situation... it was bad play on my part to not pay full attention to that.

I can't decide right now... but i am leaning on Elmo for now. I'll do a bit more in depth ISO on Petapan later, i kind of skimmed right now.

Still can't shake off Elmo's near suicidal behavior last few days.. I usually see it as a town tell than a scumtell.

[Venmar]

Going to wait for Elmo to ACTUALLY SAY SOMETHING.

[Venmar]

What's stopping you.

[Venmar]

Well that's the first time i've seen such reasoning.

[Venmar]

It's currently 7:40pm here, Sept 27. Seeing as the deadline is exactly in about 24 hours and 20 minutes ( assuming i am on the same timezone approximately to that of Scott's ), i am going to give Elmo until midday tomorrow to make a post and give me his thoughts before I throw down a vote and risk the fate of town right there and then. I need to know what you're thinking Elmo, if you're town you got to help me trust and believe you, otherwise i will just vote you.

Still kind of 50/50 town on who to vote, hopefully the following hours and a goodnight sleep will help me make the decision tomorrow.

@ Mod: What timezone are you in? I want to know if my assumption until deadline matches yours

[Venmar]

Really I'm leaning peta

- Try harder.

[Venmar]

Petapan your vote delay and reasoning is concerning to me.

[Venmar]

Elmo is useless as always.

I'm posting during my programming class and i can't concentrate on what to do, i'll make a vote when i get home.

[Venmar]

What the fuck.

Screw you Elmo... like royally.