Open 349 - Masons and Monks (Endgame)

[Whiskers]

Vote: sorgter

Also, look around onsite for the article of why RVS is not a terribad thing before you bitch about it, thanks.

[Whiskers]

Didn't Sonic turn into a werewolf?

[Whiskers]

Sorgster and Gen_wolf for werewolf team.

[Whiskers]

sorgster, has that always been your avatar?

[Whiskers]

Excellent, well, I'm uploading an avatar for you then.

Preeedit: One for
BLUEGINGHAM, I mean.



Here you go.

[Whiskers]

Nice to see we're out of RVS.

Kondi is afraid of me, since I'm a damn good scum player and I'm a damn good town player in marethon games-- the only games kondi's competed with me in.
I'm a different player outside of marethon games, kondi.

Oh wait, no, we had a regular game together, didn't we...? Why don't you link it, so everypony can get up some meta on us.

[Whiskers]

Hey kondi, why are you /in'ing for this game, but leaving another game hanging?

Post Date -

Open 348 - JK9

Moderator:

ConSpiracy

Status:

Day 1 just started

Replacing:

kondi4242

Game just started, kondi didn't show a sign of life.
And a wonderful game, go play!

[Whiskers]

I dont-- I don't understand this rule and it's not makeing any sense. I absolutely hate that rule. Don't talk about the fact that there are other ongoing games that exist?

That is literally fucking ridiculous. It makes me rage. It makes me want to flip over the table and say, "You know what, fuck it, I don't want to play with this stick-up-his-ass mod!"

Can I please have an

explanation

for this ruling on that rule?

*Please note that I am using the technical term, and have, indeed,

not

flipped the table, nor said anything about the mod's mother.

PM'd you. -Eijo

[Whiskers]

Interesting DLG, I'd think you'd be voting for me, for usurping your place.
FoS DLG.

[Whiskers]

A few things that I've noticed:

VOTE: Sorgster

I can't help what my replacement did! Honest! I was rooting for you the whole time after you claimed!

UNVOTE: Sorgster

There's my participation in RVS :p

Okay, a few things I've picked up on:

Whiskers

What's up with your first post?

Agreeing with Deas' post #22 about your willingness to provide meta. Or well, have Kondi provide the meta.

Post #26. Let me guess, you're going to be our aggressive player?

Kondi:

Why did you place a serious vote on whiskers in RVS? And what basis did you have for it?

But seriously guys, Whiskers is scum.

VOTE: Kondi

And you could only know this if you were scum-buddy.

Two basic questions:

How much experience do you have on this website?

- 2 completed games, 2 replaced, 1 finished

Timezone?

- US Central time: I think GMT-6. it's currently 10:46 my time.

OmFG, I am already enamored.

My first post: What of it? There is something "up" with it?

Meh. Meta is w/e. I was mentioning it in passing, since if he did provide it, you'd all be able to go

"teehee, meta!"

or, you would if you're that kind of player.
Also, iirc, it was the Carbon-14 game that I rigged and we lost anyway, but I don't remember why. Were you scum, Kondi, or not? Also (Kondi), link me to a town game of yours that I didn't play in. Since you've decided to piss on me, I'll decide to check your meta.

Agressive? Maybe. I'll likely be confused, I'll probably be a minor troll,

I'll likely type in pink

, and I will be-- or at least, often will be-- 100% transparent. If you have a question, ask it me.

Hm, having looked back to see what, specifically, post #26

is

, why did you pick it to decide I was the aggressive player?

As for Kondi's questions, (or, your questions to Kondi,) why is it bad to place a "serious" vote on somepony in RVS?
(Oh yeah, I'll also be using

pony

isms.)

I have some experience on the site. A while ago I replaced into a whole bunch of games. I have some completed games in which I was an original player. I played some

MARE

thon games. I played in one Newbie game and then am playing in another one now, but I can't say I'm in another game, because it's ongoing.

I consistently refuse to answer the timezone question. Instead, I substitute my own, equally useful and game related question: What is your favorite flavour of ice cream?

[Whiskers]

unvote.

Vote: Kondi2424.

Actually, they asked different questions.
It's your policy to lynch VIs Day 1 right, Kondi? This ought to please you.

[Whiskers]

A spite vote from a game that wasn't over. But now that game is over, vote: pinkfloyd.
Come on, read the whole post.

[Whiskers]

Nice reasoning. You still in RVS?

[Whiskers]

See,

THIS

makes me suspicious of

you

I don't like Whiskers over-reaction the the mod rule. That's pretty standard knowledge/a common rule (this is sort of independent of allignment tho).

Then why mention it? It doesn't matter, we discussed it out of thread.

Things like the following, however...

Interesting DLG, I'd think you'd be voting for me, for usurping your place.
FoS DLG.

Sounds paranoid. Not to mention that terrible FoS. If DLG HAD voted for you in RVS, how would that change any notion you had of his allignment?

What makes you think it's paranoid. I also didn't fos him, but thanks anyway for putting words into my mouth.

Also, iirc, it was the Carbon-14 game that I rigged and we lost anyway, but I don't remember why. Were you scum, Kondi, or not? Also (Kondi), link me to a town game of yours that I didn't play in. Since you've decided to piss on me, I'll decide to check your meta.

Agressive? Maybe. I'll likely be confused, I'll probably be a minor troll, I'll likely type in pink, and I will be-- or at least, often will be-- 100% transparent. If you have a question, ask it me.

Way too over-defensive. Kiwi mentions a suspicion, and instead of answering it you say "what about it," (thus not really responding to her point. Also, saying you are being "pissed on" from one comment? Yeah, wayyy to over-dramatic.

So why did you quote this post, instead of the part where I said "what about it"? I wasn't really responding to her "point"-- it wasn't a "point", but a question, and I was asking her to be more specific.
Her "Point" was "What's up with that post?" How do you expect me to answer that vague question? Nothing is "Up with" it, but she seems to think there is, so I asked, "What about it?" Not defensive, but maybe you could explain to me how you got confused.

"Pissed on me": Would you rather I use a different but similar phrasing? Kondi came in and declared me scum for... fun? He decided to declare me scum, I decided to retaliate by checking him out.

Unvote:Vote:Whiskers

for now. Better than an RVS vote.

Quite, I now have a read on you.

Some stuff on other players:

@RedPanda: How is asking "How is Whiskers scum?" blending in?
@Sorgster: There were other players with only one post. Why EC?

I don't really think anything of bluegingham at the moment and I have a feeling that you are scum. It might just be your play-style though.

soo its a gut thing? Why did you only mention bluegingham and none of the other players? Why didn't you say this when you voted Whiskers?

Uh, maybe because She had

voted

for bluegingham and none of the other players, and she said it in That post instead of when she voted me, because I

asked

her about it.

[Whiskers]

I know I am. I

like

being the strongest player in a game.
I also like being scum.

[Whiskers]

Oop, my bad, kondi. I missed the part where he says he asked the same question, therefore making my defense of him void.

Yoyo, the point is that you're trying to suckle the towncred given to pink by asking the same question. He asks a good question, you recognize that, and ask the same question (without all the surrounding context). Then, you both get towncred for asking a good question and having a "townie mindset."

THAT is kondi's logic.
Also, DeasVail is right, your reaction is an over-reaction.

[Whiskers]

So.
You've been here for awhile.
Played a couple games.
Know the site meta.
And site rules.
So what's the big deal?
You're not an idiot.
Clearly you can read.
So, what's the big beef with on-going games?
Seriously, your overreaction to that is just lulzy and stupid as hell.

And I consistently have a problem with this rule. I'm not playing that game in this game, I'm not commenting on something in that game, I'm not doing anything that would be cheating or unfair or any shit like that, and it pisses me off that every mod has to take this out of the spirit of the rule and go to extremes.
Figure out why the rule is there,

then

enforce it. As I already said, this one was dealt with (kind of) in PM between E and I.

Whiskers has responded in a townie matter. I just think people are afraid of experience and skill.

I do not support the wagon.

I know I am. I

like

being the strongest player in a game.
I also like being scum.

Anyone else think this man is full of himself?
I agree with the vote currently placed.

Ahem,

"man?"

Pinkfloyd says, "I think people are afraid of experience and skill."
Whiskers says, "I know I am. I like being the strongest player." <If there are other players with more experience and skill than me, then I am afraid.
Whiskers says, "I also like being scum." <I like to be in control, like to be informed-- and therefore, the informed minority.

I'm full of myself how?

[Whiskers]

I keep forgetting to

Unvote Kondi,

putting me at wagon leader with Three Votes!

What am I doing that makes you think I'm "sticking my neck out so early"?

[Whiskers]

Whiskers lied?

[Whiskers]

Interesting DLG, I'd think you'd be voting for me, for usurping your place.
FoS DLG.

Ah, yes, I did.
My mistake.

Now, @PK:
I don't like the extent to which that rule is enforced. The rule makes sense, but is taken too far. On another site, we just had a game where a player was modkilled for describing the picture in his role pm (different rule)-- the first picture of his role title, if you do a google image search. It's just me, maybe, but this is like paraphrasing. I have a problem with rules that are taken out of "the spirit of the game."

I'm not bringing this up again.

Uh, yeah, it kind of

is

his job to provide meta.

Without any reasons, we weren't particularly worried about the "serious" vote. Also, it came from kondi, so I figured if something went wrong I could always wait for his replacement to unvote me (trolol)
Also, the way RVS went is fine. I like longer RVSs, but when it ends naturally, instead of, "OH, I HATE RVS SO I WILL END IT AS QUICKY AS POSSIBLE" I don't mind.

The bit on calling kondi a VI: I had been reading his play from another (very early) game. His catchphrase at the beginning of that game was sort of like, "Lynch the VI, he'll only hurt us later." I was ribbing, and yes, looking for the emotional response.
You don't think it could have been townie vs mafia? That kondi is at least as innocent as I? Interesting.

Retaliation by checking it out: When I called him a VI, I was referring to a previous game of his.

"You seem very self-confident. Most townies don't boast about how they're the strongest player, as they usually don't have all the information required to be the strongest player. You say over and over again how you like being scum because you're well informed. You've been minorly trolling, trying to get a lynch on Kondi. You have yet to use any solid reasoning behind said wagon, which strikes me as odd since you're so experienced. What are your reads on Kondi? What are your suspicions? Is it just a retaliation vote or what? You don't appear to be scum-hunting to me, only mentioning over and over again how you're the strongest and how you like being scum. I can't see town motivation behind this and you've gone up a few knotches on my scumdar because of this."

I didn't say I

was

being the strongest player, I said I

like

being the strongest player. Scum is informed minority, by definition? I've been minorly trolling, but only in attacks. I've not been pushing for a lynch on kondi, but I

have

been putting pressure on him. My suspicions? FF, for the fluff post. I'm confused by DLG for barking at FF about me lying, but not at me. I'm also a little worried, because it wasn't a "lie," I had forgotten.

I AM NOT CLAIMING TO BE THE STRONGEST PLAYER.

I WILL NOT TALK ABOUT THIS AGAIN. MOVE ON.

I LIKE BEING SCUM, IT'S MORE FUN.

I WILL NOT TALK ABOUT THIS AGAIN. MOVE ON.

I actually was leaning town on DLG, but I don't know why he hasn't brought up my "lie" as evidence against me.

[Whiskers]

Your post #76?

I think it

was

pointless, as your "problems with whiskers reaction to the mod" weren't your problems, but mine, and the mod had, as clearly quoted in your post, PM'd me. You answered the question from kiwi of "how experienced are you?"

How experienced

are

you, FanF? Your join date is Oct 6, so who are you an alt of? What other sites have you been on? How many years have you been playing?

Why am I your biggest scumread? Because I'm full of myself?

I expect an answer to this.

Also, I think there are some ponies who expect an answer to

this,

@ FanFiction
Why, when you responded to Whiskers again, did you let this lie slide?

@ Whiskers
Why did you lie?

Aha, and there's the question to me, "why did you lie." I didn't, I forgot. Sorry.

[Whiskers]

Go ahead, bro, ask me a question.
I'll answer it, even. Ask me a question. I'm not refusing to answer questions. If you want to talk about my playstyle forever and ever, that's cool with me, but I'm done.
But ask me a question. I'm not avoiding any question, am I? Is there something I missed? Ask me a question.

[Whiskers]

@Daes: What are your thoughts on Whiskers trying to take control, it could be a good thing (if she's town) but it could be a bad thing is she is scum (Duh, thanks captain obvious) anyways, my point is, I think Whiskers is trying too hard to take control, also with aggression and uncertainty in her play style won't help that.

In my posts makes you think I'm trying to take over? I need to document it.

@Whiskers, i'm not saying its bad to wear your heart on your sleeve but your too emotive, it makes us edgy and then uncertain! I don't like uncertainty!

So basically, you

don't

have a scum read on me, I'm just making you nervous. Good to know

Go ahead, bro, ask me a question.
I'll answer it, even. Ask me a question. I'm not refusing to answer questions. If you want to talk about my playstyle forever and ever, that's cool with me, but I'm done.
But ask me a question. I'm not avoiding any question, am I? Is there something I missed? Ask me a question.

Well you said you refused to talk about "You being the strongest player" again. Bad attitude. That's all i'm saying, it doesn't look very town like does it?

Right, but you didn't accuse me of "not talking about being the strongest player." No,

you accused me of avoiding questions.

Go ahead, and point out a question I avoided.

Vote: Gen_Wolf

I'll wait.

[Whiskers]

Because buddying. You agree with me, therefore, if I flip scum, you must be scum for not having the same viewpoint of, "OHOHO, WHISKERS OBVSCUM."
Don't worry about that, I won't flip scum. I still don't know how

you're

gonna flip, though.

[Whiskers]

It's flattering that you think I'm the strongest player.

[Whiskers]

Iso 0, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, are fluff, but you get those for free, up until your first real post, ISO 6, or Post #80.

In post #80, you say you don't like me, because I'm "Sticking my neck out there too much" which other players have described as "being agressive" (Playstyle, Null) and which you explained away later (#111) as, "You're making me nervous."

Also, this is the first time you tell me, "that again is just trying to take the reins rather than earn it!"

So show me a post

before

#80 where I'm "just trying to take control."

Next! Post #88.
I'm "trying too hard" (alright, fine, scumtell. I'll give you this one.) and "trying to get you to look in the direction I point." (Nope. This is mafia. Where I try to make you look in the direction I point. If we just walked around and ignored each other, we'd never get a lynch through.)

#91 is a response to Kiwi being weird

#109 is you refusing to move on from bullshit non-tells. It's also where you accuse me of avoiding questions.

Point me to a question I've avoided.

#111, you AGAIN say I'm "trying too hard to take control." And that "agression and uncertainty in her

PLAY STYLE

won't help that." So, the first point, no, I'm not, and the second point is a playstyle tell.

Also in this post, you say that I'm making you edgy and uncertain.

#112, you try to back out of accusing me of avoiding questions and accuse me of "BAD ATTITUDE."
I refused to talk about a preferance that was derailing the game, hardly relevant, save for the fact that other players were focusing on that as if it were some sort of tell, and you tell me, "that's all I'm saying, it doesn't look very much town like does it?"

#124: There we are! There's a question!
I

DON'T[/T] THINK I AM THE STRONGEST PLAYER, BUT THANKS FOR TWISTING MY WORDS?

What about the future tense?
Tell me what questions I avoided.

[Whiskers]

WHERE HAVE I AVOIDED A QUESTION?

And no, I won't stop bolding things because it scares you. If it scares you, how do I know you won't something something later when I use bold and you're scared?

[Whiskers]

No, I won't move on! If I want to talk about it I will talk about it and so will everyone else if they want too and you know what, if you don't want to talk about it but then I will just keep voting for you because avoiding questions doesn't benefit town.

^Implying that I am currently avoiding questions.

So you are voting for me on a hypothetical situation, then?

I really can't figure out what's going on here.

[Whiskers]

I can't stop being an idiot in a post I made in the past.
Instead, concede or counter that you were implying that I was currently avoiding questions.

Also, answer the question I asked you--

you

are avoiding:
You're voting me based on a hypothetical situation in which I avoid a question?

I bold things to call your attention to them. Me next post will list clearly all the questions I've asked you that you haven't answered, do you have no excuse for avoiding them.

[Whiskers]

And apparently some statementsthat I've turned into questions that should be answered.

Do

you

think I am the strongest player, Gen_Wolf?
If yes, then Why?
If no, then why did you refer to me as such?

Is "Sticking my neck out too much" a scumtell?
Is "being too aggressive" a scumtell or a playstyle trait?
Is "bad attitude" about a derailing, non-game-related topic a scumtell?

Show me a post

before

#80 where I'm trying to take control.

Are you voting me for avoiding questions

in the future???

If Yes, then I will need to read your meta to see if you are incredibly stoooopid or just scum.
If No, then why

are

you voting for me?

That's everything, I think. Thanks.

[Whiskers]

I'm not liking Whiskers at the moment!

Let's find out why!

She' sticking her neck to far out, trying too hard to convince us she is "town", she also stated she like's being in control and that again is just trying to take the reins rather than earn it!

I'm missing this part. I'm playing the game. When I get asked a question, I'm accused of "being aggressive." The only thing that doesn't quite fit in to this is where I was upset by the mod's decision, which wasn't a tell afaik.
But "I'm trying to take the reigns rather than earn it."
If you need to use multiple posts to prove this, go ahead.

I think your scum taking a risk and trying to come off townie by trying to convince people that "scum wouldn't be out there so early"

Oh look, the same thing again. "Sticking my neck too far out."

and for this

Unvote: Vote: Whiskers

And you have

nothing

else?

How about this question, Gen_Wolf: do you really think I'm Mafia?

[Whiskers]

EC, take a look at Gen_Wolf.

[Whiskers]

btw, I don't support the yoyo wagon, but I do support the FF wagon. Not for the same reasons, but I do support it.

[Whiskers]

I disagree. Generally, scum teams (that work) will have 1 lynchbait, 1 sheep, 1 active leader (which I see whiskers as being). This is more about mafia philosophy however and is up to debate.

Interesting. I'll have to record this.

[Whiskers]

btw, I don't support the yoyo wagon, but I do support the FF wagon. Not for the same reasons, but I do support it.

Not for the same reasons as whose? There are multiple reasons posted against FanFiction. Then, if not for any of those, why?

Oh wait, no, I do. My bad.

I was paying attention to mostly the fact that, "Why didn't you call Whiskers out for the lie" and just say a bunch of ponies sheeping you onto the wagon with that.

However, there's ponies like this,

At the moment, I don't feel very suspicious of whiskers. I'm much more suspicious of FanFiction who seems to have built a case on Whiskers focusing on personality and play-style (e.g. arrogance, aggression) rather than likelihood to be scum, which I think is much more likely to be from someone who is scum than someone who is town.

So,

Unvote: Whiskers
Vote: FanFiction

So, yeah, I do agree with some of the reasons. Sorry about that.

[Whiskers]

It's based entirely on the fact that he asked a towncred-giving question immediately after somepony else. I won't go so far as to say that the wagon is

bad

... it's "meh."

[Whiskers]

Why do you apologize to feminists?

Yoyo's defense is reasonable. The thing to do is wait a week, like he says-- give him the benefit of the doubt, a bit more time if he needs it, and

then

have him play the game. Look, real life is real. This is a bullshit internet game. Okay? Also, it's against MS.net rules to make up IRL excuses that are lies.

Or, it's against MS.net

ethics code

.

I trust him, at least on this.

Yoyoguy: You might want to post a V/LA for like, a week, so you don't get tunneled on when you should be focusing on something Real.

[Whiskers]

Who the hell is RedPanda talking about all this time?

1: votes are to lynch, usually. If you vote, we will, usually, assume it is to lynch.

2: a hypocrite because he took pressure and stuff off after he was revealed to be only applying pressure? How? Did he call somepony else out for doing this? Oh, and also whomever it is is an "idiot." Good to know.

3: "Good reaction. Looks very townie. If I hadn't already decided that you were scum for looking townie or something, I'd say good job."

4: "Wow, this is a good post too. You're so townie looking, that everypony will want to sheep you forever. That great-- except, oh wait, I decided you're mafia. Also, Appeal to Emotion."

5 & 6: This point is acceptable. It's you saying, "I said this, and it was bad, and you turned around and acted like it was your own idea, trying to get townpoints for the original, townie idea, acting as though you are looking out for the town with an, "I'm sorry, was I derailing the game?"."
So, the only point I can distinguish from the whole post that has any validity. (and is actually pretty good)

[Whiskers]

The only thing in yoyo's play that stands out is that he seems to overreact. Yes Yoyo, the vote on you was for a bad reason, but freaking out about it doesn't make you look any townier.

EC

has

been similarly (in)active, but with no excuses. He also hasn't had any play that jumps out at me.

RedPanda's ISO: fluff,
fluff,
sheeping onto the yoyo wagon for a

completely

different reason (so, not really sheeping, even though he says it is.),
explains to

somepony

that he thinks Kondi did good with the yoyo wagnoa dn then askes whomever he is referring to to also answer some questions.
Ah, but ISOs #5&6 here, when I read them, I understand both of them. It was a good idea. now, subtract the stupid, "err, um... my vote was neceasary to get more reactions! Yeah!" and i've got a nulltown read on him.

How about sorgster? He's pretty active-lurky, and sheepy, and "sticking his neck out there" for all the vote he's placing. He has three more posts, but Redpanda has three times more content and three times fewer votehops.

[Whiskers]

I know I said I would give more reads tonight, but I'm super tired. Long day at work and I have to be there early in the morning, so I'm going to:

@ Mod- V/LA until Tuesday evening after school

Sorry guys. I have homework to do and a test to study for tomorrow night, so I won't be able to post at all tomorrow.

Since you just left this out here with a big scumread on whiskers, I'm eager to see your return and post some other cases.

[Whiskers]

Okaaaay, Kondi. You do another one of your "tests" and then take your vote off, Imma vote you. The first one I could let slide. This looks bad. He passed because you wanted some other player to call out the slip? Meaning you didn't find a slip? Meaning, you wanted somepony else to make a case against DV, and you sheep it and go, "yeah, yeah, that's

exactly

what I'm talking about."

[Whiskers]

Good catch, although I'm still suspicious of kondi for doing that.

He keeps pulling his vote off like it's not a big deal, like he doesn't want to leave his bluff on too long, like he might get called out on it. It just reads as nervous to me, like his votes don't really hold any weight.

[Whiskers]

You are helping others to gain reads.

The actions you are doing, the way you're going about getting reads, they look sketchy to me. Maybe I'm conditioned to look for tells, but it looks like you are afraid to keep your vote in one place and as soon as you're called out --

nvm, I looked. I distincly remember somepony saying, "I read the iso, and I don't find him all that scummy!" but idk now, because I can't find it.

It looks odd to me. that's all.

[old, old preedit]

Apparently every time I hit submit, there was a new post. So this was supposed to go right after kondi's post, then was ninja'd by Kiwiw, then apparently Ninja'd AGAIN by FF, when I switched to another window. So here it is.

[Whiskers]

This is nonsense and I have yet to see any pattern to prove such.

Teams with just lurkers do not work. Teams with a bunch of sheep do not work. Teams with a bunch of aggressive players do not work. Teams with lynchbait do not work. A balance does. Everytime I've used this model, its been pretty accurate. The key, of course, is that GOOD scum teams are balanced in this manner. Yet to be proven here, but I don't see any damage in adapting it a bit earlier.

Want to ask, what do GOOD towns have in the way of stock-characters?

[Whiskers]

I was there when people started having to catch up.
This is my prod-avoidance post, waiting for content...

[Whiskers]

I seem to be town, so I don't see what's wrong with that.

[Whiskers]

Is

it much? It isn't much. Is it?
Then he stop talking about me and talks about a player who looks scummier for doing a bad job of building a shitty case on me when it's still pretty early for building good cases.

Protip: RVS allows for them cases-- the kind you want to build but don't have much content for now.

[Whiskers]

I think the accusing-another-player-of-being-defensive thing is sorat weird. Deas might be a scumteam, but until then, let's not have a fight over whether she's too townie to be town.

I'm pretty sure deas is scum. Not exactly sure if it is with whiskers. Whiskers distanced herself right after I made the first accusation for both of you so that seems likely she is scum if you are scum.

I did

not

distance myself from him. I buddied him back. Then,
"The deflection is that you talk about whiskers act as if it isn't much and then start talking about fanfiction."
"It isn't much. Is it? Then he stop talking about me and talks about a player who looks scummier."

I was responding directly to you, sorgster:

#The deflection is that he talks about whiskers act as if it isn't much. Well, it

isn't

much, right? So that makes all of the sense.
#And then start talking about fanfiction. Well, since fanfiction is diong scummy shit, like trying to build a really bad case on me, that makes a lot of sense too.

Connecting: sorgster & fanfiction.
The question is, are you mafia or werewolves?

[Whiskers]

Yes, because you are trying to link us together. We're both coming under fire for really STOOPID reasons, so I'm going to defend him back! I'm not scum, and if he is, then I'll catch him later. Right now, he's playing pro-town, he's not doing anything particularly scummy, and he's under attack for...

buddying?!

Go and read Gen_Wolf or FanFiction instead. Go build your STOOPID case against one of them.

[Whiskers]

Nope. double o for emphasis.

[Whiskers]

Here's my problem (And the reason for that post):
Sorgster is attacking DV on the grounds that DV is "buddying" with me.
I'm not mafia or werewolf, so DV "buddying" with me isn't really a huge problem.
DV is being otherwise protown.

[Whiskers]

I'm not saying I'm conftown. No matter how many times I repeat it. Read what I've written, not what you want me to have written so you can call me scummy for it. That seems to be a major problem in this game.

1. This is true. I have no other reason to believe he is scum, though.
2. Correct. Even if I were a mason or a monk, I would still not be conftown.
3. I'm not, as addressed above, but thanks for twisting my words.

DV is buddying with me. Do you have anything else on him? Because him "buddying" with me really doesn't make either one of us scum.

[Whiskers]

Also, I get the feeling that Gen_Wolf may be trying a bit too hard to suspect me for different reasons from those used by sorgster.

Explain.


@Werehog: Defending another player from a shit case is not scummy. Attacking a player with a shit case is scummy. Therefore, DeasVail is not scummy, and... wait, who was DV even defending me from?

Anyway, I have one really good townread. It's not Sorg, Gen, or Red.

[Whiskers]

This is gonna be a greaaaaat game.

-________________-

You know, Day 1, in the early pages, is a great time for scum to slip up. In the endgame, you go back and read it, and find stuff that doesn't match up.
When you have players replace out, it totally fucks this process.

[Whiskers]

It's okay to post suspicions, and maybe even change votes, but the latter is more touchy, when you're in V/LA.

@ Sorgster
Why did DeasVail have to ask you to post those examples?

I'd like an answer to this, Sorgster.

I missed this. I'd also like an answer. The masses have noticed. Raise awareness.

[Whiskers]

Doesn't look like a joke to me. Looks to me like he was brushing off your threat very cooly, and with a level-head.

[Whiskers]

because i Pointed out a reason which felt scummy to me. And you used that reason to call me scum. And now you think hes scum. which means You have to take it as a null read.

Or, I think you are both scum from different teams.

Surely, with your superior playing ability, you can grasp this concept.

This is the basic failure of your insistence that pointing out a scummy move by a player attacking someone equates to a defense of the player being attacked. In this set-up, that doesn't hold true.

He's calling you out here, because you say:

1: I (RedPanda) have a scumread on X.
2: You (DLG) have a scumread on X.

Conclusion: I (RedPanda) am null, not scum, since we both have a scum read on the same player (X).

He's saying,

1: We have scumreads on the same player (X).
2: There are two scum teams.

Conclusion: You (RedPanda) and Player X are on different scum teams.

1: You, (RedPanda) are experienced and know how the setup works.

Conclusion: You (RedPanda) are either stupid, or being intentionally misleading.

[Whiskers]

RedPanda: Why should his scum read on you be a null read? I don't get it. You have a scumread on X. He has a scumread on you. He also has a scumread on X, so votes X. Therefore... his scum read on you should be null?

Gen_Wolf:
Here's the justification: You get a little pressure for your vote and you immediately unvote it.

I"m not following the stuff in this game so well, but I'm clarifying the arguments.

[Whiskers]

If he didn't realize he was buddying, then he really wasn't.

Buddying: When a player tries really hard to be another player's friend.
Buddying as a scumtell: When a scum player tries really hard to be a town player's friend, in order to be right when the town player is lynched/killed, or so that the town player will be best friends and have the scum player as a great town read.

You don't accidentally make friends with a player to be right or to be on their good side. If it's accidental, it's not a scumtell, and not really buddying.

[Whiskers]

But whiskers, you've ignored Sorgster's main supicion that we are a scumteam and defending each other so we survive.

But why? That would be asinine. Even Masons and Monks wouldn't do that. There will be some buddying, sure, but there I can't see any reason for there to be buddying from scum.
Also, I like to bus my partners into the ground. I don't get towncred for it (or, I lose it again really fast), but Then I'm in control of the nightkills.

Been reading this game for the past couple of days. I'll come back tomorrow to explain things. Let it be known where I stand tonight..

Unvote; Vote: Whiskers

*scratch*

Who the hell are you?

[Whiskers]

EpicMafia=noob

Also, Kise, what a shame, I'm about to open my first modded game with a Cat theme.

[Whiskers]

Kondi is afraid of me, since I'm a damn good scum player and I'm a damn good town player in marethon games

And today you'll be a damn good lynch.

Cute.

-- the only games kondi's competed with me in.
I'm a different player outside of marethon games, kondi.

Oh wait, no, we had a regular game together, didn't we...? Why don't you link it, so everypony can get up some meta on us.

What is with the drawn out, Hitchcock esque, dramatic storytelling here? You made this one post saying you didn't have games together, then switch personalities and say OH you did, then you tag that cliffhanger at the end about sharing meta. And this is page 1.

I remembered. *shrug* I could have lied, instead.
Also, what do you mean by, "drawn out, Hitchcock-esque, dramatic storrytelling"? I said somestuff. Wasn't particularly dramatic. Bite me.

I'm sensing you are threatened by kondi's vote. Now what you want to do is turn the heat up and give others the impression she cannot be taken seriously. Or, perhaps, cannot be trusted. Yes? Yes? Let's see:

I was attacked by Kondi. I wasn't attacked by another player. I "turn up the heat"-- you mean, I look at meta? Do a little background checking? Yeah, you're right, I

do

do that. Hey look, you've caught on to my playstyle!

Hey kondi, why are you . . . .

I'll respect that we shouldn't bring ongoing games here, so there's the link in case anyone forgot what else was said here. The fear must be heightening by now because you're more than just a detective. You've turned into Batman now and pulled up external information on kondi. My my, looking for anything that sticks.. After the mod chin-checks you, you continue the drama queen behavior and rant. And this is page 2.

Yep, I'm fucking batmat, putting time into my games.
Also, Obviously, EtherealCookie, just to throw out a name, is 100% town. Because, man, he's not really put any time into the game at all.
effort = scum. Good to know.

To me, this is too early in the game to let someone rile you up when they

should

have nothing concrete to use against you. I ask myself, why would Whiskers as a townie become this paranoid of kondi off the first post/vote against her.(?) Lastly, I get the feeling you're a try-hard. Who are you trying to impress here?

I wasn't "riled up." He attacked me. If the somepony else had done so first, I'd have gone to them.

(LOLing @ Kiwi's post)

Which post?

Why werewolves and not mafia? Could it be because you are actually mafia?

Mafia is too obvious!!

Holy shit why aren't we lynching this scumslip?!!!

I am. Oooh...
Oh, and also, scumslips are often bullshit. +town points to Gen_Wolf for having Kise call him out on a "scumslip."

Vote Yoyo

Kondis right.

How is Whiskers scum

is totally how scum would phrase it to blend in.

Is totally how scum would phrase it to sheep on to a wagon.

Out of all the things you could pick on, why pick on something as neutral as Panda's post? And by pick, I mean nitpick. I noticed you selectively chose to

only

comment on Panda and no one else. So now I'm wondering what your mission is, what with the selectiveness of your focus.

Point.

My first town lean is Princess Kiwi. Therefore I'm going to vote with her.

ThiS, DLG, THIS IS SHEEPING! WHY HAVE YOU IGNORED TJHIS LINE!?

...because blue is a big newbie? or appears that way? Appeared that way, rather. Looks like a decent player. We'll see.
Oh, you mean because DLG skipped this while pointing out RedPanda and calling it sheeping.

I also like being scum.

This isn't an answer to anyone's question. Is this some kind of mind trick; Some kind of conditioning; Lamp shading, even???

Correct. I mean, correct that it isn't the the answer to anypony's question.

*casts a spell*

kondi, pinkfloyd, and Fan read town at the moment. I'm flipping the page.

Kay.
Wait, is pinkfloyd still in this game?

[Whiskers]

Wait, Whiskers don't act like you don't know me. Pretty sure you played one of my marathon games since that's your specialty.. Bow down.

Yeah, it probably had shitty flavor and I probably died Night 1. I don't remember it.
I remember Tragedy's Marethon games.
I remember Bowser's game I played in.
I remember playing

with

some players.
But I don't remember you.
Kekekeke.

[Whiskers]

Point.

and

Oh, you mean because DLG skipped this while pointing out RedPanda and calling it sheeping.

Nope, not a point, at all. What it was, was a neat little attempt to pigeonhole me by referencing old posts that no one is likely to bother looking up the context surrounding them. It looks really neat, for a repalcement to come in and point out something everyone else missed. Even supplied the quotes to save everyone else the hassle of going back there.

Yeeaah... but I was kind of unhappy about the whol one-liner thing that you, RedPanda, yoyo, and kondi did.
kondi: "Whiskers is totally scum."
yoyo: "How is whiskers scum?"
RedPanda: "That's how scum would say it to blend in!"
DLG: "That's how scum would say it to sheep!"

yoyo's bit in all of this is the only thing I can approve of. Also, I gave +Townpoints to DLG, but he's not a town read, so.

[Whiskers]

Oh, fanfiction, I just figured you're all (mostly) so scummy that It works better to give out townpoints. Positive reinforcement, you know?

[Whiskers]

once again, whiskers is just obnoxious, but town. everyone needs to get off that wagon lol.

Scumread on RedFF.

[Whiskers]

whiskers made a good point about how as soon as kondi called out deas for something, yoyo posted something about deas as well.

That wasn't Whiskers who called YoYoGuy435 out over that.

Good, good. +scumpoints to redff.

Who did call yoyo out on that, though?

[Whiskers]

what do you mean by, "drawn out, Hitchcock-esque, dramatic storrytelling"? I said somestuff. Wasn't particularly dramatic. Bite me.

You've set this grand scene where you drag out your dialogue and create all these twirly, zany, thrill-seeking segways. Your thought channel was on full display, when you could have just trimmed the fat and provided what was hard-hitting and most relevant. Instead, you chose to play a cartoon character. But hey, who am I to talk when I'm anime?.. Exactly.

"Your thought channel was on full display."
completeness = scum. Good to know.

I was attacked by Kondi. I wasn't attacked by another player. I "turn up the heat"-- you mean, I look at meta? Do a little background checking? Yeah, you're right, I

do

do that. Hey look, you've caught on to my playstyle!

I'm being told to chalk it up to playstyle.. kay then..

Yep, I'm fucking batmat, putting time into my games.
Also, Obviously, EtherealCookie, just to throw out a name, is 100% town. Because, man, he's not really put any time into the game at all.
effort = scum. Good to know.

Stop. There's no absolute way to determine what a player is by something as generic as effort. It's your approach at digging up dirt on kondi to discredit him. It's scrambling, point blank. I'm surprised you're not even aware of how desperate you looked for going after the first person to "attack" you. Are you familiar with the concept of OMGUS?

Yes. Are you familiar with the part where I didn't do that?
post 50is where I vote for him.
post 75is where I realize that I missed a piece of information and my vote was stupid, and had intended to unvote him (even though it takes me another two posts to do so.)

...

I just went and looked at my ISO. I didn't attack him-- not to the extent I thought I had. Not to the extent I'm being accused of. The lines in question are,
"Also, iirc, it was the Carbon-14 game that I rigged and we lost anyway, but I don't remember why. Were you scum, Kondi, or not? Also (Kondi), link me to a town game of yours that I didn't play in. Since you've decided to piss on me, I'll decide to check your meta."

Oh, and also, scumslips are often bullshit. +town points to Gen_Wolf for having Kise call him out on a "scumslip."

Often, I've seen scumslips get dismissed by the ignorant. Guess what? Those scumslips turn out to be worth something. Here's one from recent memory:
http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 0#p2814430
Take note that xRECKONERx is the first to defend his scumbuddy werewolf on this page. Oh, guess how the ignorant townies lose the game? For one, by not following up on even the smallest-yet-most-obvious of shit that happens right under their noses. I'm not subscribing to this claim that scumslips are often bullshit. If you're not into psychology, then you don't get it. But if you ARE, then you will understand how the subconscious mind works. I'm sticking to the theory that Gen_Wolf is scum.

Unvote - Vote: Gen_Wolf

And then this mofo is named wolf too. I'm having a bad relapse remembering NY 126. I'm not letting this shit get slippery again.

First: Scum using "scumslips" to frame town? Sure, scumslips exist, but I'm not putting 100%, lynch all day long, faith in them. "scumslip" noted. I have better reasons for him to be scum, though.
Second: You're voting with me now. Interesting. Man, I hope I'm not bussing my partner.
Thirdly: Yeah, I picked up on that too. Also take a look at Sorgster. Sonic the hedgehog is a lycanthrope.

I also like being scum.

This isn't an answer to anyone's question. Is this some kind of mind trick; Some kind of conditioning; Lamp shading, even???

Correct. I mean, correct that it isn't the the answer to anypony's question.

*casts a spell*

So why did you bring up that you like being scum?
õ__õ

Pinkfloyd says, "I think people are afraid of experience and skill."
Whiskers says, "I know I am. I like being the strongest player." <If there are other players with more experience and skill than me, then I am afraid.
Whiskers says, "I also like being scum." <I like to be in control, like to be informed-- and therefore, the informed minority.

Rtft, bro.

[Whiskers]

Gen_Wolf, A lot of people suspect you and I'm also considering changing my vote to you. I'd like to know what you have to say.

what for, bro?

Connecting...
...
...

DeasVail and Gen_Wolf...
Connection Established.

[Whiskers]

I'm sensing you are threatened by kondi's vote. Now what you want to do is turn the heat up and give others the impression she cannot be taken seriously. Or, perhaps, cannot be trusted. Yes? Yes? Let's see:

I "turn up the heat"-- you mean, I look at meta? Do a little background checking? Yeah, you're right, I

do

do that. Hey look, you've caught on to my playstyle!

I'm being told to chalk it up to playstyle.. kay then..

^In this set:
-You accuse me of searching out meta on other players. Scummy? No. Construed as scummy? Yes.
-I refute by saying, "yeah, I play that way."
-You step off after that tiny bit of pressure. Afraid? Not worth the challenge? Gonna Nightkill me instead?

The fear must be heightening by now because you're more than just a detective. You've turned into Batman now and pulled up external information on kondi. My my, looking for anything that sticks.. After the mod chin-checks you, you continue the drama queen behavior and rant. And this is page 2.

Yep, I'm fucking batmat, putting time into my games.
Also, Obviously, EtherealCookie, just to throw out a name, is 100% town. Because, man, he's not really put any time into the game at all.
effort = scum. Good to know.

Stop. There's no absolute way to determine what a player is by something as generic as effort. It's your approach at digging up dirt on kondi to discredit him. It's scrambling, point blank. I'm surprised you're not even aware of how desperate you looked for going after the first person to "attack" you. Are you familiar with the concept of OMGUS?

^In this set:
-You accuse me of being afraid of Kondi's vote, which is a rationale for your next accusation:
You accuse me of Becoming a detective, Batman, and doing research on the other players. Scummy? No. Construed as scummy? Yes.
-I read what you said: That, because I am taking the time to do the research, I must be scum. Effort = scum. I also slam EC, for being a lurkerpants.
-You say, "OHNONONONO, EFFORT IS REAL GOOD, PLEASE KEEP IT UP YOU ARE DOING A GREAT JOB." after that tiny bit of pressure.

You've set this grand scene where you drag out your dialogue and create all these twirly, zany, thrill-seeking segways. Your thought channel was on full display, when you could have just trimmed the fat and provided what was hard-hitting and most relevant. Instead, you chose to play a cartoon character. But hey, who am I to talk when I'm anime?.. Exactly.

"Your thought channel was on full display."
completeness = scum. Good to know.

You're using absolutes again.

I bring up OMGUS because as soon as kondi, myself or WHOEVER look your way, you just look right back at them. And in relation to when I asked if others thought you were just obnoxious, I'm genuinely finding it hard to get a strong read on someone who just gets pissy in retaliation. My first post in the game was a vote on you and you respond with "who the hell are you?" This temperament isn't healthy and won't help us trust each other if you're town. I hope you get what I mean and now get where I'm coming from. BUT speaking of if you're town, yes, I have moved my vote over after studying you.

^In this set:
-You accuse me of talking too much, but insert this great little line, "Your channel was on full display." Transparency: Scummy? No. Construed as scummy? Yes.
You then try to get to ignore it by saying, "oh, lol, I'm a cartoon too!" You will use this later in your case against me, saying, "gee, Whiskers was derailing the thread!"
-I call you out on it. Ohoho, My channel being on full display makes me scum? I suppose I

am

good as scum... Still, the fact that I'm posting my shit and not hiding it-- scummy? No. Construed as scummy? Yes.
-"OH NO, YOU'RE USING ABSOLUTES AGAIN, THAT'S NOT WHAT I SAID AT AAAAALL." After that iny bit of pressure.
You go on to say that, in early game, in RVS, in the first-- what, was it really the first page?-- That, "GIVE ME A REASON" isn't a good enough reason to look into a player being scum. You wanna get up in my shit Day One? Page One? I'll return the favor. Yes, I will.
THEN you brush me aside with an, "Oh, well, you're

obviously

not scum, only simply obnoxious." You leave yourself open to have a scumread on me again, when the opportunity presents itself.
NEXT, we move into how your first post was a vote against me and how I'm so mean or something.
"WHY WHISKERS THAT IS A BAD TEMPERAMENT TO HAVE YOU OUGHT TO BE ASHAMED OF YOURSELF DON'T YOU GIVE ME THOSE CUTE EYES YOU'RE SLEEPING OUTSIDE TONIGHT." Cue Gen_Wolf complaining about my "bad attitude."
Then there's the "WAH WAH, YOU DON'T TRUST ME?" Nope. In fact,

Unvote.

Vote: Kise.

What, we're supposed to trust each other? (i.e., me, trust you.)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ClXAaGoT5eE

[Whiskers]

RedFF are you going to answer that?

RedFF is newkondi?
Just asking.

Also, I want to point out that I was being a bit of a douche to kondi, giving him a hard time for replacing out of games.
Guess what? It was justified, oooooh...

[Whiskers]

redFF, how is whiskers an idiot and how is he town?

no scum is this much of an arrogant prick.

Incorrect, and if that were the case, we'd see a lot more scum being arrogant pricks in order to look town.

WIFOM disarmed.

[Whiskers]

bitch plz

Case in point: I present to you, fellows, a scum being an arrogant prick in order to look town.

[Whiskers]

FanFiction, a question about your scum team speculation: Isn't it possible to be neither of the following: lurker/sheep/aggressive/lynchbait? If this is the case, then I imagine it would be possible for both scum of each team to be balanced players without one needing to be aggressive.

Also, can someone tell me what lynchbait is?

FanFiction:

What does Gen_Wolf fall into? He's not really a sheep.
What does RedFF fall into? He's not exactly lurking.

Add to the list, the stereotype of "bitch." (Not Gen_Wolf, sorry.)
Think Hiraki. Thing Empking. Think Parama. A player who, generally, active lurks, refuses to be protown, is aggressive in his unsupported reads. He seldom posts anything longer than one line. He is almost always an experienced player.

RedFF:

Who are you an alt of?

[Whiskers]

How about a little bit of I didn't ask you, nor did I call you one.

Unless, of course, you're just taking offense to me calling you approximately a sheep, in which case, ad hom away.

[Whiskers]

Ugh, why is everyone so against whiskers? Wasn't he just pointing out a possible inconsistency of FanFiction's?

No, I was asking her to revise her categories, or at least tell me where Gen_Wolf and RedFF fall.

Oh yes, Red? Why do you think I'm town?

[Whiskers]

@Gen_Wolf: It does matter if he's trying to understand my basis for reads.

I was actually going to give your basis for reads a try. You've got a formula that, you say, often works? Sure, there's no reason not to put it to use.

Ugh, why is everyone so against whiskers? Wasn't he just pointing out a possible inconsistency of FanFiction's?

No, I was asking her to revise her categories, or at least tell me where Gen_Wolf and RedFF fall.

Oh yes, Red? Why do you think I'm town?

i said why

Hmm, Wifom? Thanks, but I just ate. Try again.

[Whiskers]

i wanna give the replacement a chance i guess

Calling bullshit on this one.

1.A mason and monk are not confirmed town. They still could be mafia or werewolves.
2.By I'm sure I meant about 50% sure. Seems highly likely at least 1 of you 2 is scum.
3.You still keep buddying

Unvote
Vote Deas

I'm pretty sure you are working together so is it as werewolves or mafia?

The difference here is that buddying is not a scumtell. Scum aren't going to buddy with their teammate because it looks scummy, Masons aren't going to buddy with each other because they're afraid of getting caught and nightkilled-- oh, and they won't buddy with each other because one of them could be scum. The only buddies are going to be players who have no other connection. Go ahead and apply wifom to that.

ok, ok, Sorgster. You got me. We're part of the Foxes & Ponies Alliance (FPA for short) and we're working together to dominate the world! (It's a shame that those silly mafia and werewolves get in our way though)

Don't you fucking dare drag me down because of some joke. The internet is all kinds of serious business and if you dun goofed I will report you to the State Police and the Internet Police, and let me tell you, consequences will never be the same.

[Whiskers]

1.A mason and monk are not confirmed town. They still could be mafia or werewolves.
2.By I'm sure I meant about 50% sure. Seems highly likely at least 1 of you 2 is scum.

Man, one of us MIGHT be scum.

I'm pretty sure you are working together so is it as werewolves or mafia?

Man, BOTH of us definitely are scum.

Just wanted to clear that up.

Also, both of us being the masons doesn't mean that one of us is scum. Masons are no more likely to be werewolves than any other player.

[Whiskers]

True but deas said you guys weren't masons or monks.

He also said that if we were he wouldn't out us.

And sorgster, how can you afford to trust me?

[Whiskers]

Trying to find scum. If they aren't monks/masons they're scum. If they are less options for scum to kill trying to hit other scum at night.

Trying to find scum. Good. That's awfully townie of you. *light applause*

If they aren't monks/masons, they're scum. Ah, well, this is your case.

If they are, fewer options for scum to kill, trying to hit other scum at night. Not sure what this meant, but why are we helping scum?

Also, shouldn't scum be trying to kill town powerroles, too?

Since town powerroles could, potentially, also be scum, doesn't this make it doubly important for scum to kill town power roles?
Since the town is already trying to kill scum, why should it be the first priority of scum to kill opposite scum?

[Whiskers]

FanFiction: what do you think of Gen_Wolf?

[Whiskers]

Perhaps more importantly, what do you think of Kise, who backs it up as soon as anyone so much as looks at him, and kondi (redFF), who you only actually mentioned twice in your iso, and maybe only once directly spoke to?

[Whiskers]

On page 9. I see that I've asked questions that have already been answered, so don't expect me to play until I get around to finishing up.

Perhaps more importantly, what do you think of Kise, who backs it up as soon as anyone so much as looks at him

That's not me. That's you counterattacking everyone. Wake up.

Did I say you were counter attacking everyone? No. Thanks though, for trying to put words into my mouth?

[Whiskers]

Kise says Whiskers is scum for some reasons.

I counter with meh-strength points.

Kise freaks out and retracts everything he said about me.

There was actually another, earlier two posts where this happened-- one where Kise attacked me, one where I refuted that attack-- but idc enough to find it right now.

[Whiskers]

Do

you?

[Whiskers]

Besides, is it really optimal play to out our (more) power(ful) roles?

I'm willing to take the slip at face value.
I'm also willing to say that I don't see a town motivation for fishing out the masons.

Vote: sorgster

Sonic the Werehog?

[Whiskers]

RedFF - your just stupid aren't you? or are you trying to get a reaction from me?

@Fanfiction That was a really stupid question. But are you making a case out of that? lol.

yoyo/DLG = one team. Fan/genwolf? maybe for the second.

here you go.

redFF, instead, defend yourself from the accusations that you are a total dumbass? Instead of nitpicking? You're being unhelpful regardless of who said that quote.

[Whiskers]

Ok, as requested I'm going to go through the "scummy" posts I pointed out earlier. For DLG they are ISO # 0, 3, 6, 16, 19, 21, 22, 25. I know that a lot of this has been pointed out earlier but I wasn't there at the time so there will probably be some repetition.

0:

VOTE: bluegingham
Might as well experience being waggoned, too.

This is early in the random voting stage, so it doesn't mean much, but the snarky comment is a good excuse to start an early wagon while leaving room for the old "it was just a joke in the random phase so it doesn't mean anything" gambit.

Okay.

Vote Yoyo

Kondis right.

How is Whiskers scum

is totally how scum would phrase it to blend in.

Is totally how scum would phrase it to sheep on to a wagon.

UNVOTE: Gen_Wolf

VOTE: RedPanda

That kind of reaction, DeasVail.

This is what first caught my attention and I know it's been commented on before, but the hypocrisy here just said scum.

Okay

This is assinine.

Princess Kiwi, your vote was

never

on Whiskers, as Gen_Wolf pointed out correctly.

sorgster and Princess Kiwi, it takes

7

votes to lynch someone. No one has more than 3 by my count. Stop with the "quicklynch

bad

" line, unless we are actually near that point.

All this scrambling

WILL NOT

distract from the fact that Whiskers lied and FanFiction ignored it. FanFiction is the player who should have jumped on Whiskers for it, because FanFiction included commentary on Wiskers' FoS of me as part of his (FanFiction's) attack on Whiskers.

Other players should have seen it, too. But, FanFiction was giving an impression of going after Whiskers. Would any townie allow a suspect to lie in answer to them and then ignore it?

I want answers.

Making a huge deal about Whiskers forgetting a minor FoS, mischaracterized as a "lie." And what do we do to liars? Also encouraging quick lynches by criticizing people who warn about caution.

Err.... doesn't actually push on me for the "lie." Pushed on FF, who should have picked up on the "lie" and used it in her case against me.

DLG, what makes you change your vote from FanFiction to YoYo? Why do you suspect YoYo and do you still suspect FanFiction?

I already found YoYoGuy435 suspicious here. After reading through after being gone myself, I found he popped in again with a quick little vote post. I think it is scummy to post suspicions and votes while under the nominal protection of V/LA.

I do still suspect FanFiction. I think my original points still stand. However, I won't refrain from looking at other players, too. YoYoGuy435's play was worth a vote, and I've only got the one.

@ Sorgster
Why did DeasVail have to ask you to post those examples?

I'd like an answer to this, Sorgster.

This has been pointed out already also, but using someone's limited access to hammer them for making a post while on V/LA is pretty scummy. Not to mention repeatedly going after Sorg for fishing, then posting examples when asked.

Uhm... what? He wasn't "using someone's limited access to hammer them." That doesn't even make sense. However, he

was

saying that, even though yoyo was on LA, he had the nerve to post votes in the game that he couldn't really pay attention to was reckless at the least, and not pro-town.

Also, it's good he went after Sorg for fishing. Sorg's fishing is one of the things that makes him look scummy.

Also, it's good that he brought up examples when asked. Bringing up examples is how we know you're not just pulling some bullshit out of your ass. Bringing up examples is how you support your case.
So, you just pointed out two nice strong towntells?

I Totally understand that. But your reasons for finding me scummy were that i sheeped on to someone (who you didnt have a read on.)
but i didn't and I've shown that i found him genuinely scummy. Im not asking you to say im town. Shouldn't that read of yours be null?

And Also your still assuming i think you are town which you shouldn't be doing Because I'm going in a whole different direction.

Sure, you gave an explanation,

after

you were called out for sheeping. But, you can't unring a bell.

And, when I want your input on what my reads

should

be, I'll ask for it.

Your stern warning is duly noted. I tremble with fear of the terrible wrath that may yet ensue should I fail to heed it.

This seemed like an overreaction. I don't see why he didn't take RP at his word.

Why he didn't take RP at his word... Hmm, let's think of reasons:
RP isn't confirmed town and therefore might be scum. If RP is scum, then taking him at his word would be taking scum at his word. Why is this a good idea? It's not, unless you're RP's partner.
Connecting...
...
RedPanda and Painted Face of Death.

Also, RP tells DLG what DLG's read on RP should be. wtf? Why should he take that "at his word"?
Hey, Painted Face of Death: You should have a really strong town read on me. Take me at my word, okay?

After reading "I don't see why he didn't take RP at his word," nothing in this post can be taken seriously.

[Whiskers]

I disagree with the points I wrote arguments against. Not just one.

Painted makes a big long post:
>Painted's first point, he effectively negates, saying "It was RVS."
>Painted's second point, he ignores RP, who

was

scummy. Yeah, DLG's comment was scummy, but so was RD's, in the same way.

"is totally how scum would phrase it to blend in."

Is just as scummy as

"Is totally how scum would phrase it to sheep on to a wagon."

is.
>Painted's Third point, I let her have this one for free. It looks like Painted misread, or maybe just

didn't

read, because she entirely misses the point of DLG saying my thing was a "lie."
>This is the first point that is... wrong. He didn't hammer yoyo, so idfk what he's talking about-- Painted has made up a tell. Just completely made it up. It's like Gen_Wolf attacking me for not answering questions

in the future

. Also, Painted doesn't have any opinion about Yoyo voting while on V/LA. (V/LA is basically protecting you from getting voted and lynched and stuff, and then it looks like he's abusing that in order to sneak votes in while protected from being lynched.)
Oh, then there's the part about how he calls sorgster out for rolefishing. +townpoints to DLG.
Then the part where he provides examples, which is good. +townpoints for DLG.
>Ah, well. "why didn't you just take RP's word for it?" I've already mentioned how fucking incredibly stoopid that is, with my quote, "Painted, you should have me as a town read. Take my word for it."

Painted goes on to say some stuff that I really didn't pay attention to, because I was focussing on taping my head and bandaging my desk. All it says is "ohoho, DLG is scum," and the case is bad, the case is weak, and the case shows that Painted decide that DLG was scum before he started ISOing.

[Whiskers]

The bad case on DLG means that there isn't a good one to be made. Towntelling, DLG is confirmed town until further notice.

[Whiskers]

So if I had to vote right now, it would be for DLG. There are (at least) two other people who stood out though and I'll go over them as well. Apologies if I've missed something or gotten confused... still trying to figure this game out.

I'm also curious why PFoD

didn't

vote. He's made an awful case and said, "If I had to vote." You never have to vote, except in some games, where you do. This isn't one of those games. It isn't that you HAVE to vote. You willing volunteer to vote because you think a player is scum, not because you HAVE to vote.

[Whiskers]

I'm surprised by the wagon on whiskers. I still don't see anything that makes it that likely for him/her to be scum. Regarding the lie, if the FoS wasn't all that serious (which I think it mightn't have been?) then I can understand why Whiskers would forget it. But if it was a serious FoS, then it would make me more suspicious of Whiskers, because I think scum would more likely forget it than town.

This is why I find Kiwi interesting. To actually vote for someone and then forget about it seems a bit strange. I see no reason why she would pretend to forget it and I'm thinking that scum would be more careful than that, but I also think that town are generally more serious in their suspicions than scum are, so I would think it more likely for scum to forget they voted someone than town. I'm contradicting myself and I'm not all that suspicious of kiwi, but I'll keeping an eye on her.

At the moment, I don't feel very suspicious of whiskers. I'm much more suspicious of FanFiction who seems to have built a case on Whiskers focusing on personality and play-style (e.g. arrogance, aggression) rather than likelihood to be scum, which I think is much more likely to be from someone who is scum than someone who is town.

So,

Unvote: Whiskers
Vote: FanFiction

This is why you were voting FanFiction. Since then, many other players have done the same thing (that is, attacked my playstyle)-- Kise, RedFF-- and then you have other players who have done more concretely scummy things-- sorgster, rolefishing, Painted Face of Death, terribad case-- and maybe we'll come back to FanFiction, but maybe 354 posts later, it's okay to change your vote.
A little touchy about moving the vote?

Also, make your own damn case, instead of asking us to make a case on your fos. <3

[Whiskers]

That said, looking at FanFiction's ISO, he's been doing some great sheeping recently-- or at least, it feels that way to me.

Unvote Whiskers for "better lynches." Check.
sorgster scummy for rolefishing. Check.
RedFF is an asshole. Check.

[Whiskers]

RedPanda, what kind of Quicktopic do you share with Painted Face of Death?

[Whiskers]

No, I had a weak scum read on him for a while, until it was brought to my attention that we could only make incredibly bad cases on him-- therefore meaning he's town.

Now answer my question.

[Whiskers]

I tried to make a post attacking you in the style of your post attacking DLG, but I can't. I can't be so vague. It's a talent you have, apparently, to refer to things so generally.

First answer my question.

Then, answer these other questions:
Why have you decided that DLG was "bussing" Yoyo, instead of attacking him?
Where does he "TURN INTO A CHICKEN"?
Is the attack on FanFiction scummy or something?
Is the attack on sorgster scummy or something?

See, you listed a bunch of stuff, but I'm missing the part where you say why he's scum.

[Whiskers]

Deas let me ask you this one more time- Are you and whiskers masons or monks together? I'm sure that at least one of you is scum and could be affected by that claim.

This was a really Stupid question. Anybody who asks this turns into lynchbait. the chances of this being a scumgambit is zero. The chances of scum being this stupid is low.

Hm, sorgster asks stooopid question, becomes conftown.

You're right, scum wouldn't do that.

[Whiskers]

Never assume someone is being too stupid to be scum!!!!!

I think that if sorgster is scum, he may have been hoping to find masons/monks, while hoping that he would just be dismissed as a stupid townie.

I was trying to find masons/monks as they are not very powerful or useful. They have great potential to harm the town if a scum mason/monk is smart. I already showed the scenario with 1 town, 2 werewolves, 2 scum. Scum want to kill scum. If a mason/monk set is formed and as someone said earlier they are less likely to be scum, then the vts will be targeted more because people will be more likely to be scum. Werewolves won't target monks and mafia won't target masons.

But they will target the other team-- If we out masons and monks, Werewolves WILL target masons, and Mafia WILL target monks, in hopes that they'll kill a Mason/monk of the opposite scumteam. By outting masons and monks you pretty much guarantee that they will be killed.

[Whiskers]

Unvote

[Whiskers]

From the bottom:
Why would scum attack you when they could let the town lynch you for free?
So you vote for a bandwagon, instead of for whomever you think is scum?
So what? A lot can change in four days, and if you really think Deas is scum, you'll make a case against him. Maybe you did, idr. I'll ISO you to look.
Really? Okay, look:
-Kill a PR that

might

be a PR of the opposite scum team, or
-Kill a vanilla that

might

be a vanilla of the opposite scum team.
Hm, should we use our nightkill to do a lot of damage or a little damage? Gee, idfk.

Really, there are no

positives

to outting them, so "what are the negatives" is a really weak defense-- You have no pros, but counter with that there are no cons. Well, there

are.

[Whiskers]

@ Whiskers

Why the unvote?

Yes, that is now correct, but I think I find gen_wolf more likely to be scum right now.

That is fair. I don't agree.

[Whiskers]

Your numbers don't make sense to me.
Assuming No Mafia-Monks:

If Mafia shoot randomly, they will have a... what, 2/10 chance of killing W-scum.
If the Mason team is revealed, the Mafia will have a 2/10 chance of killing W.
If the Mason team is revealed, and a W-Mason is Lynched, the Mafia will have 1/9 chance of killing W.
If the Monk team is revealed, the Mafia will have 1/8 chance of killing W-scum.
If the Monk team is revealed and a W is lynched, then the Mafia will have 1/8 chance of killing W.
If the Mason team is revealed, and the Monk team is revealed, then the mafia will have 2/8 chance of killing W.
If the Mason team is revealed, and the Monk team is revealed, and a W-Mason is lynched, then the mafia will have 1/7 chance of killing W.

However, if the Mason team is revealed (and both alive), the Mafia will shoot at least one, to remove the advantage that the Town-Mason or W-Mason would gain from having Mason Nighttalk.

The same is true for Werewolves, just change the names accordingly.

[Whiskers]

Now, here is my master plan:

If one Mason is lynched or shot, and flips town, then other should claim immediately. He is no longer useful as a Mason, but is useful as a Named Townie. If he is Town, then He should claim and be willing to take the Nightkill like any good Vanilla, and if he is scum, then it is good for town for him to be Nightkilled.

Actually, if one Mason is lynched and is town, he should out his partner:

His partner could be scum. Since his partner is now effectively a Vanilla Townie, he should be willing to take the nightkill. If his partner is Not a townie, but really is scum, then it is beneficial to town for him to be killed.
If the lynched Mason is Werewolf, then it would be detrimental to his faction to reveal his partner (clears one townie, allows town and Mafia alike to find the other Werewolf).

[Whiskers]

You seem to be confused, we're voting sorgster primarily for rolefishing.

redFF, what meta reasons were you voting sorgster for? Perhaps they can shed some light on the whole damn thing.

[Whiskers]

Deas let me ask you this one more time- Are you and whiskers masons or monks together? I'm sure that at least one of you is scum and could be affected by that claim.

This was a really Stupid question. Anybody who asks this turns into lynchbait.

the chances of this being a scumgambit is zero.

The chances of scum being this stupid is low.

Hm, sorgster asks stooopid question, becomes conftown.

You're right, scum wouldn't do that.

Sorgster asking a stupid question does not make him conftown. But it does not make him scum.

Bolded, therefore, you've put him as conftown. Care to explain your backpedal?

[Whiskers]

One Major Reaction test You failed Was your inability to Even consider the fact that I could be town. You Said This wasn't true After i called you out on it. I Haven't gotten support from anybody in this game. Kise and Painted face of death Called you out Because You are scummy.

He didn't ignore the fact that you could be town either... I don't know where you're getting the whole, "YOU IGNORED THE FACT THAT I COULD BE TOWN!!!" but You're making something up. He called you scum somewhere, that doesn't mean that he threw out any possibility that you are scum. You are scummy for pushing this point. He can't defend himself from it because you made it up. Try supporting this point. You can't.

But Your trying To give an attitude That your Obvtown And i am Stupid for suspecting you.

You seem to have a strange inability to admit when you are wrong. What I see from you is tunnelled town. You got defensive when you were attacked. You lost the argument. You pouted. Then, you tried to sneak in on the coat tails of Kise and Painted Face of Death when you hoped your piss poor arguments would gain some traction.

Any of that could come from scum, too. But, you really seem to believe in your assessment that I am scum. That kind of unreasoning belief in someone else being scum is difficult to fake, and is more likely to come from tunnelled town.

And now Your calling me Town Whos tunneling on you to get me off your back. nice try.
Sorgster Can get lynched. but You and whoevers trying to make case based on that better take responsibility When he flips town.

Oh, and now Sorgster can get lynched?
Who takes responsibility if Sorgster flips scum?

What does it mean to "take responsibility"? Assuming Sorgster flips town, what are you suggest they do to "take responsibility" for it?

Another Reason Why i think Your scum Is your unvote on me. You stopped Trying to get reads from me. and said "As for my original charge on you of sheeping like scum, I think it's still valid. But, it is far from the scummiest thing at this point. There is a grey area between agreeing with another player and sheeping." This Looks to me like Your Going to use this to set me up for a lynch in the future.

I can't blame him. We can't lynch ALL the scum Day 1, only one of you at a time.

[Whiskers]

you still dont get it do you? HE could be scum.

BUT THAT STATEMENT WASN'T a scumgambit.

You using that for a case is bad.
Bolded So that Anyone including the not smart ones can easily understand.

He didn't ignore the fact that you could be town either... I don't know where you're getting the whole, "YOU IGNORED THE FACT THAT I COULD BE TOWN!!!" but You're making something up. He called you scum somewhere, that doesn't mean that he threw out any possibility that you are scum. You are scummy for pushing this point. He can't defend himself from it because you made it up. Try supporting this point. You can't.

I didn't sheep onto the yoyo wagon. Yoyo is scum. I called him out on his post Which clearly to me in my head Was what scum would say. DLG says This is a scum post. I would agree if DLG thought yoyo was town. He didn't have a read on yoyo. But then He gets a scum read on yoyo and votes yoyo. How does my post become a scum post when i actually catch scum. he keeps saying there are two scum factions. Which means Both scum and town can use that exact same line. So in my head = Thats a null read. I Ask him this. He replies no. Its a scum post. I ask him to reconsider. he says no its a scum post. Looks to me like Hes going to use this day2 or day3 and use this and setme up for a mislynch. I call him out on it. He then backtracks and says " Oh i never said You couldn't be town."

Quotes 1 & 2:
But he never said you couldn't be town. Just like you never said sorgster couldn't be scum. It's exactly the same. DLG says a post you made was scummy, so gives you a scum-read for it. You say a post sorgster made was Not Scummy, and so you give him a town-read for it.

Quote 2:
Also, your scum-catching post is bad because it is for a bad reason. Like you're making something up just so you can hop onto the wagon. "How is Whiskers scum" doesn't seem scummy to me. The placement (right after another user asked the same question) is slightly scummy, but you don't mention that. You say that the question itself is scummy. It's not. Therefore, bad reason that you used to hop on the wagon.

[Whiskers]

Accidentally escaped from the end of that post:
Scum can do that to bus (notice how you're now attacking DLG instead), or, since there are two scumteams, you could just be a bad player and hopping on the wagon for really weak reasoning.

[Whiskers]

Oh, and now Sorgster can get lynched?
Who takes responsibility if Sorgster flips scum?
What does it mean to "take responsibility"? Assuming Sorgster flips town, what are you suggest they do to "take responsibility" for it?

You guys are pushing a lynch with a bad case and bad tells. In my head, Very few town are that stupid to jump on a sorg lynch with that case. All your posts are all "sorgster is scum lets lynch him now"

Im not going to lose this game Because scum or stupid town get to decide who to lynch based on bad cases and not take responsibility for it and then Do the same thing again the next day.

Great, thanks for letting me know, but this time, answer my question, since you bring it up again here and again later.

I can't blame him. We can't lynch ALL the scum Day 1, only one of you at a time.

Calling me scum but in a very general way. And after you and DLG Mislynch Sorgster. You can ofcourse setme up for an easy mislynch.

I don't like defending other people. But seeing As i see a yoyo/DLG connection. and you Sheeping and defending him along the way - I'm Forced to. And btw I have a Strong town read on sorgster. Strong scum read on yoyo. If You are Going to disregard this And still lynch someone who i think is going to flip town And Then tell Me you Won't take responsibility for a sorg Mislynch I'd be really stupid and the town should feel stupid if they Still let you both dictate tomorrows lynch with your bad cases and tells

Here you bring up, again, "I WON'T LET YOU NOT TAKE RESPONSIBILITY FOR HIS TOWNFLIP." Great. Answer my questions, and maybe this will mean something. Right now, it means nothing. Buzzwords and catchphrases are cool, I get that.
But "YOU MUST TAKE RESPONSIBILITY if he flips town" is something that will be interpretted differently by everypony who reads it. Does it mean that, if he flips town, I should be willing to step up to the gallows in some kind of zombie revenge scheme? Will I need to publically apologize? Do I actually have to attend the funeral, or can I just send a card?


P.S.: You're buddying with every town player by saying "they are so smart and they

totally

wouldn't go on that case for that reason and that's just soooo dumb and only scum would do that and the townies aren't scum and they are also smart so they will stay off of the sorgster wagon." Guess what? I'm a townie. And I'm really that dumb.

[Whiskers]

Deas (not voting), redFF (doesn't appear to be voting..?):

meta.

Whiskers, DLG:

PR hunting.

Gen_Wolf:

saving his own ass since he's the other wagon.

FanFiction:

???

[Whiskers]

You say a post sorgster made was Not Scummy, and so you give him a town-read for it.

Its a null read. My town read on him is from before. THAT Statement he made according to me should be taken as a null read.

Responsibility according to me Is Just Shutting up And admitting you Make Bad cases And pushing lynches for the wrong reasons.

Aaaaand my other question?

[Whiskers]

I asked three questions. The first was rhetorical. The third was answered. The second was,

"Who "takes responsibility" if sorgster flips scum?"

Come on, it's not like I haven't quoted them recently, demanding that you answer them.

RedPanda, what do you think of Sorgster's latest post?

[Whiskers]

Also, your scum-catching post is bad because it is for a bad reason. Like you're making something up just so you can hop onto the wagon. "How is Whiskers scum" doesn't seem scummy to me. The placement (right after another user asked the same question) is slightly scummy, but you don't mention that. You say that the question itself is scummy. It's not. Therefore, bad reason that you used to hop on the wagon.
Scum can do that to bus (notice how you're now attacking DLG instead), or, since there are two scumteams, you could just be a bad player and hopping on the wagon for really weak reasoning.

Listen I know Exactly What Scum posts look like. and that was a scum post. It added nothing Plus The way he phrased it sounded so innocentlike Which Got me a scumvibe. I am 80% right about When people are faking stuff or lying. And this is Good enough reason for a serious vote on page 2. Its not good enough for a lynch obviously. but Its Good enough For a Vote. Please dont call it weak reasoning.

Okay, well, it

is

weak reasoning, because you can't really prove it to any of us more concretely than if you had said, "gut."
I think you're wrong, but I think you're honest.

Well Rationally If sorgster flips scum - i should Shut my mouth and Let you guys do all the scumhunting Because you guys are really good at it.

but If you do want my lynch over sorgs Flipping scum

= i will not argue.

OOOOOOOOMFG NO.

Firstly, Townies are allowed to be wrong. If you are wrong, it doesn't mean you should stop playing. If we are wrong, then we should not roll over and die, we should not stop scumhunting, or let another player take over. That would allow scum to bus and have infinite towncred while they led, it would allow other scum to be intentionally wrong and then hide out while he lets other scumhunters "take over." The way to get better at finding scum is to try to do it, not to quit trying to do it.

Secondly, appeal to emotion (bold) noted. Who is pushing your lynch?

[Whiskers]

I certainly wasn't looking for you to (with either answer) pull up something like, "If you're wrong, you should stop scumhunting!"

I also asked you another question.

[Whiskers]

Other than 1 of his posts he has posted nothing. I brought attention to packbat as I saw him posting and realized he was playing in this game.

He's also a replacement. You didn't just "bring attention" to him, you

voted

for him.

[Whiskers]

Okay, fair enough. The question is, though, is there really where your vote should be?
Is that a good place for your vote?
Is there a better place for your vote?

RedPanda, you always seem to miss the question I really want the answer to. "Who is pushing your lynch?"

[Whiskers]

Welcome TheRaven. I'll make lots of jokes about quoting you.

Also, how do you feel about replacing into a town slot?

[Whiskers]

So my question is why are you saying things like this? Almost as if you are trying to put words in my mouth!

Careful now. I said you were just doing it to save your furry hide and you agreed with me. DLG pointed out that you were on sorgster

before

it became a wagon-- meaning that it was

before

it would have been a viable move to save yourself. DLG is just asking you some questions, that's how the game is played. This reaction, where you omgus to questions that can help both us and you, makes you look scummy.

[Whiskers]

but If you do want my lynch over sorgs Flipping scum = i will not argue.

Okay, fair enough. The question is, though, is there really where your vote should be?
Is that a good place for your vote?
Is there a better place for your vote?

RedPanda, you always seem to miss the question I really want the answer to. "Who is pushing your lynch?"

Nobody for now. but Weak cases get pushed on this site all the time. Can You blame me for being Paranoid when There are more scum wins than town wins on this site. ---> Town make Bad cases. town make scummy posts. town make mistakes. town sheep. town lurk. And yet all of this are used To lynch people without trying to differentiate between the two.

What is it with you guys and making future accusations about stuff?
So basically, that was just a huge AtE and you get scumpoints for it.

[Whiskers]

He is attacking my lover, whiskers!

UN-TSS UN-TSS UN-TSS UN-TSS UN-TSS UN-TSS UN-TSS UN-TSS UN-TSS UN-TSS UN-TSS UN-TSS UN-TSS UN-TSS UN-TSS UN-TSS UN-TSS UN-TSS

Protip: Raven only likes people he has a townread on.

[preedit]
Why do you say things that set you up to be asked questions that can only be answered scummily?

[Whiskers]

redFF: Friendhunting, but not scumhunting.

[Whiskers]

Then don't. There's plenty of stuff to comment on between your last post and now.

[Whiskers]

I don't really feel that sorgster is as likely to be scum as others (e.g. DLG, whiskers) are suggesting.

Yes, but look, we caught RedPanda with this. I, personally, DFK about sorgster. I also don't know about Gen_Wolf. Noobs abound.


Oh, and to the rest of your post: Instead of saying, "Stuff I said before," recap for me. It will work a lot better in convincing me.

[Whiskers]

Whomever. Gen, RedPanda, sorg, Kise, whomever replaced Kondi, it's all good. I have a few town reads and some are stronger than others. I'm up for any lynch, so long as we lynch scum-- it'll be my only Day in the game, as I am a prime choice for a Nightkill, roles notwithstanding (were we all vanilla, I'm a great Kill). So, I really don't know.

[Whiskers]

Who "takes responsibility"

Who is pushing your lynch?

Whiskers. Can you think of any answer to these questions that Will not be considered scummy?
You forced me to answer these questions.

Why do you set yourself up to be asked questions that can only be answered scummily?

"Fffff, if he flips town, you'd better take resposibility and not scumhunt! All your point will be definitively proved wrong!"
"What if he flips scum?"
"Then all of MY points will be proven wrong!"
"No, then we'd forgive you and you'd keep playing the game as normal. Are you trying to escape from the responsibility of scumhunting if we lynch scum? And to lead the town if we lynch town?"
"WHYYYY DID YOU MAKE ME ANSWER THAT, IT MAKES ME LOOK SOOOO SCUMMY!"

"BAAAAW, YOU THINK PUSHING MY LYNCH IS BETTER THAN LYNCHING SORGSTER-SCUM (who I was just defending)!!!"
"What? Who was pushing your lynch?"
"Uh, uh, Nopony is pushing my lynch, I was just, you know, sayin'."
"Why are you attacking us for something that hasn't happened yet, and may not happen at all?"
"WHYYYY DID YOU MAKE ME ANSWER THAT, IT MAKES ME LOOK SOOOO SCUMMY!"

[Whiskers]

MAYBE WIGGLES?

[Whiskers]

No, it's just that he's a kangaroo. All the others fit on the heads, whereas Gen_Wolf's avatar is a transparency (<3).


I don't know who is scum. I also like Kise for scum, and sorgster is kind of meh. RedPanda would be a good lynch, as would RedFF, I think. RedFF's playstyle is the one where, "Mafia will never kill me, I'm acting so scummy, they'll leave me alive for a mislynch!" Well, if sorgster is to be believed, you're actually more likely to take a nightkill-- fine, I guess, if you're vanilla...

But they won't do that. The scum will still shoot the best players outside of their faction.

Speaking of Kise, where IS Kise?

[Whiskers]

Panda, according to sorgster, I will only die

IF

I am scum.

"Clearly Me trying to be a force in this town is not appreciated."
Perhaps not, but let me tell you something-- lurking is prosurvival, and therefore proscum. FanFiction, who defends herself by saying, "I'm not a leader, look, look, I did lots of OTHER scummy stuff!" Is, perhaps, more likely to be scum.


"Maybe i should be like Theraven and say "oh whiskers your so awesome" and then get called town."
I called him town before he did me. bluegingham was my strongest only townread, theRaven lives up to and perhaps beyond that.


@FanFiction: "5 people of focus: Whiskers, sorgster, raven, packbat, RedFF"
Notice how he mentions Four of these players. I mean-- ONLY four of these players.

[Whiskers]

Oh shutup. Everything's there. If you are reading all my Interactions with DLG and still not seeing it as anything more than interaction , then your comprehension skills suck.

Rather than relying on insults, explain it to him. It is in your best interests for him to understand your thought process & stuff. If he does not, how can yo uever hope to convince him of your stance?

3. At the point I quoted, it was not a Page 2 vote, it was a Page 12 vote ... with no more justification than it had on Page 2.

Page 2 - 12 yoyo did nothing. So Page 12 can be considered page 2 with regards to yoyo. why its page 25 and you/yoyo still have done nothing.

I also remember saying il work on yoyo when he comes back when he posted V/LA.

He explained why he had done nothing. Yoyo was flaking in that time, and Packbat was reading for the rest of it.

2. YoYoGuy453 was "lurking" because he was flaking out. Given the fact that he replaced out, the fact that he was lurking is almost valueless from a scumhunting perspective.

It doesn't seem to look that way to me.He never addressed my vote whenever he popped up. Calling it valueless from a scumhunting perspective is very poor defense in my opinion.

Well, your opinion is wrong. It's like saying, "Oh you were on V/LA? LYNCH ALL LUKRES!!!" It's not exactly like that, but it's

like

that. He wasn't just lurking, he was actually Not Part of the Game. He replaced out. If he intended to lurk and keep playing, he wouldn't have replaced out. He wasn't lurking. He was busy or negligent; from a scumhunting perspective, the fact that he was inactive is valueless.

1. I was "lurking" because I was reading up. That's why I stopped reading up at the bottom of Page 14, in fact - because I clearly wasn't going to be done reading up by the deadline, and it was more important for me to participate than for me to read.

I'm not calling the both of you scum for lurking. I'm only pointing out that "No Proper case" Can be made on the both of you on account of that. The "NO proper case" is significant because you called me out on that.

But a proper case can be made on other players, so why are you suddenly on this guy, who will be given the appropriate time to catch up and be a useful player, when you could be attacking sompony with a good case to be made against them?

I already stated in Point 3 that I found the explanation insufficient.

I think its sufficient.

Well, Packbat didn't. Since this post of yours is a response to the post of his, now is the appropriate time to make an explanation that even Packbat finds sufficient.

It strikes me as a very poor test, but I don't know pinkfloyd's meta well enough to judge.

You answered it yourself.

It was a single post. Okay? You can get a read, but you definitely can't conf him for this or anything. It wasn't a great test-- it got you a strong gut read.



As if there weren't already enough stuff to vote him for,

Vote: RedPanda

for just this post, because:

-Ad Hom (insults) and refusal to answer/explain.
-Attacking Packbat as though he hadn't countered it already-- this is explained again in
-Attacking Packbat for Yoyo/Packbat lurking. This was already explained away as Yoyo leaving the game and Packbat trying to catch up in the game.
-Hunting lurkers when there are far more scummy players, and even far more scummy lurkers. You are likely stirring up mud.
-Being unwilling to explain yourself further in order to help "fellow" townies.
-Treating a gut read as anything more than that.

[Whiskers]

RedPanda, in 627 and 632, you quoted a shit ton of posts.

What information are we supposed to gain from them?
Why do you refuse to make your case clear for Packbat? (This is a question that you'll look scummy if you give an answer I've thought of to for.)

"I'm hoping you gain more sense on day 2 and you actually vote whiskers after reading post 632.
Whiskers is super townie right? Hes supposed to be a big target. So Please don't start buddying to him tomorrow as well.
And Please don't fall for his WIFOM bullshit which Hes going to use tomorrow."
How about, even better, you play the game normally, keeping your eyes on me up until late, laaaate into the game, then, with a well-backed case, push for my lynch as scum? Wouldn't that be way better than saying, "MAN, IF YOU LYNCH ME, YOU'RE ALL WRONG AND EVERYTHING YOU SAY IS WRONG AND YOU SHOULD JUST GIVE UP MAFIA FOREVER. TAKE RESPOSIBILITY BRO." <--that was a direct quote from Red, just saying.

Red, answer my questions.

[Whiskers]

ugh, I don't know what to make of all this.

Can someone explain to me the case against RedPanda and how he is likely to be scum?

Sure

1.) He is psychic, claiming to have figured out the alignment of one player off of a single post, not doubt or hesitancy at all, only scum have that kind of knowledge

2.) He makes a laughably terrible case against DLG, which smacks of scum trying to appear contributory

3.) When asked a question he preemptively defends his behavior from a "terrible bandwagon" without even having been accused of anything yet

4.) When I call him scum, he goes into full rage mode, bashing me, trying to discredit anything and everything I say, because if I think he is scum I must be retarded.

These are not town reactions, redpanda is terrified of the wagon that is forming on him and is lashing out at those around him in an attempt to discredit or scare them away.

And there is the "I wasn't voting to lynch" statement earlier witch is just LOL.

Thanks Raven, but my null-slightly leaning scum read on RedPanda hasn't changed much.

1.) Doesn't make much sense at all.

2.) Good point, but I don't believe this is indicative of scum.

3.) This is what I'd find most scummy about him.

4.) From what I've seen of his play-style, he'd probably do this if he was town, so I don't think it adds much to his likelihood to be scum.

I often vote to generate reactions rather than to lynch, so I don't know why it's so LOL.

1: He used his magic powers to read... what,

Gen_Wolf

(seriously, idr)? 's alignment from a single post. It doesn't make sense, and that's why it's scummy.
Unless, of course, he

does

have magic powers, in which case it makes great sense.
2: Active lurking isn't indicative of scum? What is it indicative of?
3: Odd, that. I actually missed that "Terrible bandwagon." Oh, is this the place where he says, "if you want to push a lynch on me instead of lynching Sorgster-scum"?
4: Well then, this is the best place ever for him to learn, and his playstyle be corrected.

Also, read the post in which I voted for him. There's a whole case right there.

[Whiskers]

quotes.

NO. NO MORE WALLS OF QUOTES.

STATE CLEARLY AND CONCISELY THE BEST THING YOU GOT OUT OF THE REACTION TESTS AGAINST DLG AND YOUR BEST CASE ON YOYOGUY. DO NOT QUOTE ANYTHING.

In other news, when did RP self-vote?

[Whiskers]

A self-vote does not play to town wincon. It is a giant AtE designed to get people to relent. In combination with everything else, I'm willing to lynch him.

I've only ever seen town self-vote before though.

It is also done by caughtscum to end the day more quickly (to discourage town discussion), although that's usually a self-hammer.


Also, redFF, I believe is not really so stupid, just acting stupid to avoid the nightkill. It's rather brilliant, and I bet you all my muffins that it will work.

[Whiskers]

Actually, he's probably just a good VT.

Now let's WIFOM about whether Red is really outting his partner?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ClXAaGoT5eE&

[Whiskers]

I was mildly sus[picious for the way he said stuff-- really cautious.
Not enough that I would have caught him.

Woohoo forever, though. Raven is exactly right, let me look at the math real quick to see when that would be optimal play.

[Whiskers]

I want to see something from Painted and I want to see something from Kise.

I don't know th math exactly, but I think now is

not

the time to out our prs.

[Whiskers]

I still don't understand why you think scum would necessarily go for each other. You were "the scummiest person alive," so therefore, shouldn't scum try to lynch you instead?

[Whiskers]

No, Gen_Wolf is an on-again, off-again scumread of mine.
Consider me the IC for this game.

[Whiskers]

I guess it was off then.

I was pointing out his mistake. DLG noticed an inconsistency and was asking him a few questions and Gen_Wolf, instead of answering them, attacked DLG for it. I pointed out what was going on, since Gen_Wolf didn't see it.

Meh. Gen_Wolf might be scum. Why push him when I didn't think he was scum? At that point, I didn't think he was scum.

Also, Gen_Wolf joined after I did. Like I said, consider me your IC.

[Whiskers]

Ah, and reading to see the context of that quote, I've decided to go ahead and suggest

FanFiction and Gen_Wolf as the scumteam.

Why? Well, I'm not 100%. But here's why.

RedPanda attacked me for something that occurred in the future. Or, rather, hadn't (and still hasn't!) occurred yet. RedPanda flipped scum.
Gen_Wolf did the same-- attacked me for avoiding questions in the future and for "having a bad attitude."

FanFiction also gets hit with an Omgus-- made a really bad case on me early on that amounted to nothing more that playstyle-- that's "bad attitude" and "sticking your neck out way too much." Oh, and that I was trying to take control.

Actually, look at Post 141. Gen_Wolf pretty much inherited his bad case on me directly from FanFiction. It's near exactly the same. Gen_Wolf starts attacking me where FanFiction stops.

sorgster's be my third, but no great obvious case and no great obvious case like FF&GW.

All three are on theRaven's list as scum. I'm cool with sheeping him, he's had fairly good success so far.

Vote: FanFiction

. Time to get the wagons rolling, I reckon.

[Whiskers]

...

VOTE: Whiskers

The reasoning in this post is surprisingly sound.

Unvote.
Vote: Whiskers.

[Whiskers]

also Whiskers, did we not just have a conversation about selfvoting? You know, the one where redpanda ended up dead? Stop being silly and vote for people who are actually *likely* to be scum. -__-

The difference is that he did it at the end of his wagon, and that his wasn't a joke/sarcasm vote.

That said, I'm sure that, if you all read Packbat's voting post, you can clearly see where he's coming from.

[Whiskers]

Okay.
As for 393, "paranoid." I came off as it, but I wasn't. At that point, I believe I was still pretending that he and I were Masons together. I don't know what to tell you here.
VOTE: FanFiction[/b].
Why do you want me lynched, Packbat? You're done your analysis on me, but why me, and why haven't you looked elsewhere?

[Whiskers]

I mean, you like me for scum so much that you want to

lynch

me. Who's my partner? Your case on me is defending and buddying, and incredible paranoia. Is there a better case to be made somewhere? Do you really think I'm scum?

I have to say, though, that this case is far better than the previous ones on me. If you want to pursue it further, be my guest, but I doubt I'm a candidate to lynch toDay.

[Whiskers]

Wow, you have a high opinion of your unlynchability. My case on you is solid, and you have no coherent retort to any of it. The only other player I might have considered was sorgster, and sorgster was obviously gambiting to draw an NK.

I disagree.
I think your case on me is a lot of speculation, and I have no coherent retort to any of it.
Even if it were more solid than it is, it would still be wrong, and I am town-aligned.

Also, sorgster, were you gmabitting to draw and NK?

Gen_Wolf, that's Wifom -- Too scum to scum. I don't know what I would have done in that situation, were we scumbuddies. I might have coached you then too. You were overreacting, and rather than let you burn yourself to the ground, I alerted you to the fact that you were doing so. Would I as scum? I don't know. My scumbuddies don't usually put themselves in that kind of position.

Actually, I'm willing to give you townpoints for that. Don't you think scum will be a little more cautious than to attack anything that moves? That kills the GW/FF team though, so I really don't know where to put you. Could be just that you are a newbie and don't know how scum is played, or that you are a newbie, know how scum is played, and overcompensated.

Packbat, who is my partner?

[Whiskers]

Where was sorgster coached? That is what you were saying, right?
Why do we make a nice scumteam?

I never said I was obvtown, but thanks for putting words into my mouth.

[Whiskers]

So vote FF yet?

Idr if I did, but If I didn't now would be a good time to do so:

VOTE: FANFICTION

...again maybe.

sorgster, How do you like FF? Give me your reads, werehog.

[Whiskers]

And why is that?

[Whiskers]

Hey, I fos'd him for Wolf first!

Kise, do you have anything useful for us?

[Whiskers]

Oh, because I have a "Bad attitude" and I "Stick my neck out way too much." The same reasons I'm scum. Wifom, wifom, wifom. I'm not scum, but I don't think you can prove that. I may or may not get killed, but until Raven comes back into play with us, I'm happy to lead the town.

Packbat, your case on me, while better, is still sort of bad. My omgus case against FF and GW are better than that, more provable, more solid, more likely.
Also, you've failed to answer my question: Who is my scum partner?
redFF, I'd prefer an EC/PaintedFaceOfDeath lynch.

[Whiskers]

Town would coach in the situation that: A player is a big newbie and needs that coaching.

[Whiskers]

Yeah, no. coaching should only happen in newbie games.

Anyways, I'm suggesting coaching within the wolf QT b/w sorgster and someone else. Like, someone told sorgster they were killing deas veil for such and such reasons, and sorgster then applied it to themselves. In any situation,

vote:sorgster

.

LOL at the votes on me.

Can you explain this further? I don't understand the paragraph in the middle.

[Whiskers]

1: Extreme Paranoia
2: Tutoring Gen_Wolf
3: My reactions to your case.
Is that right?

1: How do I counter this? Worst case, "Yes, I didn't want to be called scummy for Deas joking with me." I don't know what to do with this except say, "...yyyyeah, sure, whatever." Because I

did

do something that you might think is "extreme paranoia."
2: I concede this point. I did tutor him, and it does look scummy. As Raven said, this really only is a thing if Gen flips scum.
3: Again, I didn't really know how to counter this. My reactions were bad-- illogical-- because I was trying to defend myself and realized I couldn't. Yes, I

did

tutor him. I don't know why. Why not? I didn't see the danger in it. Lynch me if you will, I could still be a werewolf. Mason, remember?

[Whiskers]

You said part of your case was that my reactions to your case were illogical. Okay. They were illogical because I was trying to defend myself from them when I realized that I couldn't. You think something I did was scummy, and while I am not scum, I can't deny I did those things and I can't dispute that you could (and, in fact, do) interpret them as scummy.
Basically, your case is some tells that are open to interpretation. I say to you, and to the town, look at them! Do what you think. I can't stop you from saying I did those things, because I Did do those things. I can't stop you from saying they are scummy, because that's a matter of opinion.

[Whiskers]

Where's the vote? Shouldn't there be a vote in that post?

[Whiskers]

That's cool, if redFF is willing to lynch regularFF.

[Whiskers]

Where's the vote? Shouldn't there be a vote in that post?

Why?

I suppose I'll answer this and the game will start going again.

You made a big long post and bitched about some stuff. All the times before that, you threw out a bad vote at the end of it. The, "Shouldn't there be a vote in that post?" bit is a slam on you.

It's like the tutoring-- in this case, you're being inconsistant.

Also, that post took a slightly different tone to it... apologetic, almost. Like you're not trying to defend yourself so hard anymore and be agressive (which was what I was tutoring you about before), But you're trying to be friendly now.

[Whiskers]

Why? Post something.

[Whiskers]

Okay, well, the part that

I

find wierd (I can't speak for Packbat), is that you were doing one thing, and now you're doing something else. You're being different. Inconsistant. It's curious.

Oh look, more tutoring. Man, we must be scum together because he's "trying to learn" and I'm helping him.

@Packbat: I'm not saying he should make more bad votes. Surely it's a change for the better. However, I was pointing out that he usually made bad votes at the end of similar posts, and that this was different.

[Whiskers]

whiskers is harping over the whole teaching thing as if its central to all suspicion on him.

You mean there's another element to the case against me?



...?

[Whiskers]

Connecting Sorgster and Packbat.

[Whiskers]

I DID keep saying that Deas and I were Masons together.

[Whiskers]

Iso'd again. STRONG feeling Whiskers is town now. Not feeling the wagon, Pack. Still curious why you would read the game during night.

I'm gonna go ahead and assume he's a mason or a monk.

Maybe it's because he was out of game all day Day 1, but I don't have a big scum read on him.
Then again, you could do things like reread during the night even if you

weren't

talking about it with your partner. That's about all you can do as a VT, so.

[Whiskers]

Oh yeah, I'd forgotten about that.

[Whiskers]

Kise, I wish you'd stop having such a great big townread on me, it's gonna get me killy'd

[Whiskers]

I don't see the connection between Gen and PF. Explain? Or Not?

Also, Kise, your votelist is the same as mine (except sorgster floats around in there somewhere). I'll likely be sheeping you today, since I'm cool with any of those lynched.

[Whiskers]

Nah I think Whiskers and Kise are werewolves. His beard is too scruffy.
Hmm.

SHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!

[Whiskers]

Vote: Painted

You need to be more active in all aspects of this game.

[Whiskers]

I think that's ridiculous.

I wish I had more to say, but I don't.

[Whiskers]

Well, I'm glad we all agree there.

Sorgster, are you really a VI? You seem to have a bad habit, this game, of being really stupid. I know this looks like an insult, but it isn't meant to be. I'm curious as to what your motive is. Are you just trying something new? Are you a werewolf? Are you a new player testing boundaries? Do you really believe what you're posting, or is it just a reaction test?

[Whiskers]

What was your case on him, btw?

[Whiskers]

Here, gonna ask this:

Because I didn't put them before and he didn't realize he was buddying so much to whiskers.

Ah, so would I be wrong to interpret this as you saying you were just trying to warn your scum partner under the guise of a vote to bring his attention to it?

Is it just as likely (from a third-person view) that you killed Deas to prove that

you

weren't scum with him?

Also your case on me took a couple of iterations, first was that:

If Whiskers is scum, Deas is also scum.
(then you vote deas)

Deas being town wouldn't clear me in this case, but me being town would clear Deas.
That's okay though, because later you change it to be,

I'm pretty sure Deas is scum. Idk about Whiskers though.

Again, him being scum or town doesn't clear or condemn me. No reason to kill him.

I have an even better reason not to kill him: he was buddying, sheeping, and defending me.

Oh, oh, add that to the part where I didn't have him as a scum read (and he couldn't have been on my scumteam, therefore, if I am scum, I would have thought he were town), and why would I kill the townie that was defending me to the grave?

I'm not seeing it.

In short:

You accused Deas of being scum IF I was scum, but never changed it around so that I was scum IF Deas was scum. Deas was not of the same faction as I am, no matter what faction you think I belong to, and was protecting me hard. Killing him would not have cleared me or removed suspicion from me. Killing him would have removed my main supporter. There was no good reason for me to kill him.

YOU, however, were accused of being scum WITH Deas. I think that you may have been projecting your situation onto me. Why? It doesn't make sense for me to have killed him to show he was not scum with me; it would have neither cleared nor condemned me. It DOES make sense for you to have killed him for the same reason. Since you were accused of being scum WITH him, you would have killed in order to avoid further persecution. Killing him WOULD have removed the suspicion from you.

What do you have for me, Sorgster? You should have killed me. You should have attacked anypony else during the Day. But I omgus, and I omgus hard. What do you have for me Sorgster? Come At Me, Bro.

[Whiskers]

Okay, fair enough. The question is, though, is there really where your vote should be?
Is that a good place for your vote?
Is there a better place for your vote?

RedPanda, you always seem to miss the question I really want the answer to. "Who is pushing your lynch?"

This post was done when whiskers wasn't voting anyone at all yet advising me to vote someone else.

Yeah, because you had put down a shitty vote-- iirc. Who were you voting for at that time, and why?

Because buddying. You agree with me, therefore, if I flip scum, you must be scum for not having the same viewpoint of, "OHOHO, WHISKERS OBVSCUM."
Don't worry about that, I won't flip scum. I still don't know how

you're

gonna flip, though.

Distancing from deas.

Why should I distance from a player whose alignment I know nothing about? Yes, distance from Townies.

Other than 1 of his posts he has posted nothing. I brought attention to packbat as I saw him posting and realized he was playing in this game.

He's also a replacement. You didn't just "bring attention" to him, you

voted

for him.

Vote: Painted

You need to be more active in all aspects of this game.

Whiskers attacks me when I voted someone for not posting much but she is doing the same thing right now.

No, I think I voted you for claiming to be "bringing attention to him," when you voted him. I'm voting him because I want him to become more active, or become lynched. Big difference here is motive.

Sorgster and Gen_wolf for werewolf team.

Besides, is it really optimal play to out our (more) power(ful) roles?

I'm willing to take the slip at face value.
I'm also willing to say that I don't see a town motivation for fishing out the masons.

Vote: sorgster

Sonic the Werehog?

You insist werewolves a few times. I wonder why werewolves and not mafia?
Is it because you are a werewolf and want to say it is someone else?

How about because Sonic the Hedgehog never turned into a Mafioso, as far as I know. Gen_Wolf because

his name has wolf in it.

It was silly. I wouldn't have made as much sense to call the WEREWOLF AVATAR pLAYER and the WOLF USERNAMED PLAYER "mafia," right? As my suspicions grew, I continued to use those terms as they fit, and I didn't know who the Mafia was instead.

Whiskers, what possible reason would the werewolves have for killing deas?

Reason: They had a big scumread on him and thought that it was a good idea to kill the other scumteam with their nightkill, instead of with lynches.

[Whiskers]

Why should I say "scumteam together" when you both had potential to be werewolves based on non-game-related stuff? I'm not sure if I ever

really

seriously called you scum together, if I did, go ahead and point it out.

Working on responses to your last post, maybe you should work on a response to mine.

[Whiskers]

1.When was I ever accused of being scum with deas? Deas's death does help me seem town or less scum regardless of him alignment

Here, gonna ask this:

Because I didn't put them before and he didn't realize he was buddying so much to whiskers.

Ah, so would I be wrong to interpret this as you saying you were just trying to warn your scum partner under the guise of a vote to bring his attention to it?

I

totally

] just answered this before you even asked it.

2 .I was voting packbat for a lack of posts and only having one post. You are voting painted for a lack of activity. There isn't much of a difference.

Oh really? You said you were "calling attention to him." But Let's pretend you're off the hook for that.
You were voting Packbat for "just look at his iso."

3.Why did you ask ''is there a better place for your vote to be?' when you weren't voting anyone at that time.

[/quote]
I asked you if that was a good place for your vote. I didn't think it was. It was on a lurker, when there were far scummier things going on,

much better places for your votes.

I asked you if you thought it was a good place, you said yes. And Then I Left You Alone About It, because if you really thought that was a good place, I wasn't going to challenge it. I thought there were better places, but I wasn't pushing a lynch at the time.

Look at Packbat's intro post. Just like Sorgster, he puts Deas & me as a scumteam-connection, and then fos'es Sorgster. Connecting.

[preedit]

You keep repeating that. Not like the rest of us can confirm/deny that. Buddying like that does make you

guys

scum.

guys means both of you.

Who keeps repeating what? Context, please.

It could also be scum buddying scum when both are coming under fire to save themselves in the long term

Another thing I saw as potentially happening in opposite

scumteams

.

How can opposite scumteams buddy with each other successfully? They don't know who the other scumteams ARE. So how can they potentially buddy with each other?

There was no case on deas if whiskers wasn't scum. There was no case on whiskers if deas wasn't scum.

The case on whiskers depended on deas being scum.

No, it didn't. There wasn't a case on me at all. The closest thing was if I was scum WITH deas, but you didn't ever say that "If Deas is scum, then Whiskers is scum," It was "If Whiskers is scum then Deas is scum," meaning that really, you should have tried to lynch me first, because if you lynched me, and I flipped scum, Deas was scum.
No, instead, it was, "If Deas is scum, then Whiskers is scum," meaning that:
#If Deas died and flipped town, it still didn't clear me.
#If Deas flipped scum, it confirmed I was scum.
#There is no good reason to have killed Deas.

[Whiskers]

So, here's the question:

What's the motive for me, as a werewolf, to have killed him?

In your response, please keep in mind the following:

I wouldn't have been cleared if Deas had flipped town. (Fact)
I wouldn't have been cleared if Deas had flipped scum. (Fact)
Deas was protecting/defending me. (Fact)
Scum would try to kill the opposite scum. (Your Theory)
I didn't think Deas was scum. (My word)


Also, what's the rest of your case on me? Other than interactions with a player who couldn't have possibly have been scum with me?

[Whiskers]

Well, Your case on me was okay. I mean-- I couldn't shoot it down. I'm still town, and your case is therefore still wrong, but it's a better case than sorgster's.

How about this Packbat:

Sorry for the delay - I'm still back at #191 in my reread. So far my notes consist of:

[Whiskers/DeasVail: scumteam? Connection there.] Downgrade?
FanFiction: possibly on opposite scumteam from Whiskers
RedPanda: suspicious as anything.
sorgster: wtf? suspicious.
[kondi2424: crazy] upgrade to scummy?

...which, as you can tell, is ... not exactly concrete, nor exactly definitive, nor exactly

possible

. Also note that kondi2424 replaced out and is redFF's slot.

If my reads on any of these slots still hold up by the time I catch up to the present, I'll put together cases from what I've seen.

Now would be a great time for that case on Sorgster.

[Whiskers]

But, you're not willing to make a case on him.

[Whiskers]

Pack: instead of telling me that they could be interpreted multiple ways, tell me what YOU think.

Hell, even take a few of them and tell me in what different ways tehyr could be interpreted. That way, you're not committing to any one read, but I know what your thoughts are and you don't get to stall for fre while your buddy sorgster feeds you lines or something...

[Whiskers]

So, Kise, I'm not fully understanding-- do you agree with the case being made against me, or not?

Also, sorgster/packbat: Deas and I claimed to be Masons together. It's actually totally likely that Werewolves were aiming for a Mason-- wait no. They'd be aiming for a monk. Still, they'd want a town-team gone. Since Deas and I actually

claimed

Masons (however in jest), It makes sense that they'd shoot for one of us.

Hm. If that is the case, then they either thought we were monks (maybe?) together, or the Mason team is clean too. That's very interesting information.

[Whiskers]

More importantly, what kind of slip?
This sounds kind of like, who was it, kondi? who did stuff and then said it was a reaction test.

MORE importantly, did I slip?
I'm guessing not, since you just unvoted me.

MORE IMPORTANTLY, why were you trying to make ME slip?
Were you suspicious of me? Why? for how long have you been suspicious of me?

Since I didn't slip, where do I go in your reads?
I don't trust this at all.
Who do you

REALLY,

if I didn't slip?

How about the link with Packbat?

If it was weak, why did you push it? Wouldn't scum have just seen right through it and shot it down? Therefore, I can't really be cleared to you either.

Vote; sorgster.

Why should mafia kill other mafia? It sets them up for a situation where there's 2 scum vs 8 town, in this case, and they can make links in places where they couldn't normally if there's another scumteam, and there's no reason, early in the game, for scum to shoot scum.

It makes better sense to eliminate good townies, then lead the bad townies to lynch the other scum.

^Answer this and give me your real reads with a real case.

[Whiskers]

That's a lot more likely.

However, I'd probably kill a player I was afraid of, like Raven. Can you imagine if he turned on me?

But deas was pro-whiskers. I thought he was a townie (but was (very!) mildly suspicious of him for being nice to me and stuff), and if I were scum, wouldn't have killed a townie who thought I was fucking god.


sorgster, when did you start thinking I was scum?

[Whiskers]

Maybe.

Go and find it, because it's important to me.
Otherwise, you can just defend yourself against the case I made against you.

[Whiskers]

the whiskers case has absolutely no substance. it's terrible.

sorgster is just dumb but packbat pushing the case as well is really strange to me. it almost looks like scum trying to get a mislynch going but then realising that the case is retarded and unvoting before he can get incriminated.
VOTE: packbat

RedFF: We won't be lynching Packbat today, so please do the scummy thing and bandwagon on the VI.

[preedit]

Going now to look.

[Whiskers]

It could also be scum buddying scum when both are coming under fire to save themselves in the long term

Another thing I saw as potentially happening in opposite

scumteams

.

Let me start here: How does scum buddy opposite scum, in order to save themselves in the long term? ?

[Whiskers]

To the above: Why would scum try to lynch town? If the scum thinks the townie is scum, and the other scum is town, why would they work together to lynch the believed-to-be scum? Why would both scum have town reads on the other and a scum read on the townie?

Don't answer that. I don't understand why opposite-scum would buddy together, or

why

opposite scum would buddy together-- if one scum tries to buddy with the other scum, wouldn't the other scum think the first scum was scum trying to buddy, thereby revealing to him the real townie? If a scum tries to buddy with a townie in lylo, wouldn't a

real

townie give up and cry, since he wouldn't possibly win in lylo anyway, no matter WHICH scum got lynched? If scum tries to buddy with the supposed-townie, and the supposed-townie tries to buddy back, doesn't that reveal to him that his supposed-townie is really the other scum?


Here's something that makes more sense:

The whole case on whiskers was based on deas and her being scum together. If deas was to be killed a lot of that suspicion would end. The werewolves would know that deas/whiskers wasn't possible night one because there was only 1 mafia left. I believe deas was killed to stop the case on whiskers. There wasn't much of a case on deas without whiskers either way.

How about this?
There wasn't a case on me, that I knew of, but you say that there was.

Well, I killed Deas, and he couldn't possibly be scum with me. But now, because a player turned up dead (a player which it would have benefitted me to kill), I am scum. Right?

How about, sorgster wanted to kill his scumread, and set up a good reason why it would beneficial for me to have killed him, therefore trying to frame me. Since you framing me with a kill that benefits me, you are scum, right?

HOW ABOUT THIS:
You are still suspicious of me, Correct?

Why.

[Whiskers]

I thought he was effectively V/LA until wed...?

[Whiskers]

Lol.

[Whiskers]

@sorgster: That does add up. I was thinking in terms of drawing an NK away from a town PR, but trying to convince the scum that they should shoot each other makes a lot more sense - especially given that the PRs aren't very powerful in this game. I was on one of two competing scum teams in Communications Breakdown 2 (link on my wiki page), and shoot-town-lynch-opposing-scum was the plan we used to win. Convincing scum to abandon this plan in favor of shoot-opposing-scum-immediately (and given that DeasVail followed RedPanda's instructions to shoot DLG, it looks like both teams did) plays very strongly in our favor.

Actually, that is a good point.
That is the point that I've been arguing-- so if Sorgster was really trying to convince scum to kill other scum (and not do the smart thing), then.


Fff.

Unvote.

Vote:Kise

Haven't you been doing a lot of sheeping me with little or no content? Kind of like, hmmm, DV?

[Whiskers]

Gonna take the time to point out here that Gen_Wolf and RedFF are online and visible.

I support the part about being visible.
I disapprove of the part about being online but not posting here.

[Whiskers]

Oop, and there's Gen_Wolf, browsing this forum.

[Whiskers]

Ok, so your case on Whiskers has just been an absolute failure. You then try taking the heat off yourself by immediately saying "I'm not going to forget gen_wolf either. He seems to be lurkerish currently."

Well Sorg, if you read correctly I have been on V/LA until today. Anyways, right now you seem like your a scum motivated player who has got themselves in the spot light and just keep digging your hole! Your case against Whiskers was weak and apparently you knew it yet carried on pushing it? That makes a lot of sense.

This is his last post.

Watch, as GW posts in his other game, but not in here.

That said, "Nevermind," because

Unvote: Kise,
Revote: Sorgster

Let's see your great suspicious case and stuff on lurking Gen, who'd been on V/LA.

[Whiskers]

Connecting...

...

...

zMuffinMan with Painted Face of Death.
That's whom and EC?

[Whiskers]

tl;dr, Whom did you replace?

[Whiskers]

I made a nonsensical case? Where?

[Whiskers]

Is that post (the one quoted) the baiting?


Can you build a better case?
Can we have a sorgster lynch today, and go from there?

[Whiskers]

@Packbat:
You didn't answer my question, but did give me words of ancient knowledge. Why is that?

[Whiskers]

I must agree that "Lol" is the best way to start a page. However, Packbat,

@zMuffinMan: I'm not sure I can explain it - I just have a gut feeling about sorgster which, as pretty much everyone has pointed out, has nothing backing it up. I'm pretty much leaving him in the "deadline lynch" box for now.

@Gen_Wolf: Wow, what a staggeringly tasteless stereotype about 51% of the human race! The 1950s called, they want their misogyny back.

In other news, I'm a little surprised at both Whiskers and Gen_Wolf suddenly shown up with completely nonsensical cases. Oh, wait, I just remembered: who was I saying were the werewolves starting shortly after dawn today?

VOTE: Whiskers

I made a nonsensical case? Where?

@Whiskers: There are

lots

of reasons to get online and post in one game and not another. Gen_Wolf pointed this out.

@Packbat:
You didn't answer my question, but did give me words of ancient knowledge. Why is that?

[Whiskers]

Painted and I share a nightchat.