Open 329: Mayo Clinic D3: Town WINS!

[BBmolla]

Hello everyone!

I'd like to ask everyone a few questions just know of everyone's experience and philosophy. Now this isn't required, but I'd appreciate it and it'll help me read you earlier.

1 -

Experience

- What is your prior experience with Mafia? How many games have you played at Mafiascum? How many games have you played elsewhere?
2 -

Philosophy

- Should the vigs claim early?

I normally have something involving a cop for philosophy, so I'm kind of at a loss. I'll post my answer to the philosophy after I hear some of your responses.

[BBmolla]

Alright, here's my reasoning behind vig claiming. Incoming wall of text. Possibly gamebreaking.

Now, ideally if a serial killer or mafia get bandwagoned to the point of having to claim, they'll most likely claim Vig, at least in the SK's case. Cause then they can prove their vigness by shooting a chosen target or whatever.

Now let's say we have vigs claim early. This is assuming everyone's reads on each other are exactly the same.

Situation 1 - Two Vigs Claim
These two vigs would then be confirmed town, because there have to be two. Docs would be on them because they are the only confirmed town. Now, we could split all the players in two groups and have one group protect on vig and the other group the other vig, but this would be a waste of doctors. We could just assign players to protect the vigs, random players. Even if the mafia are assigned to protect the vig, they can't kill him because it'll out the guy as mafia. If a serial killer is assigned, he's the only one who knows, and killing the vig will get him lynched. And if it's a real doctor, they're protected. So essentially mafia can only kill vig if there's that small chance that the serial killer is the one assigned to protect, and I don't know why they'd take that risk anyway. With the two people protecting the vigs, everyone else could be on random.

Situation 2 - Three Vigs Claim
This of course means either a mafia or serial killer is claiming vig, most likely the latter. This one I'm not as sure as how to approach, because the SK is bulletproof. We could keep the SK around till it's neccessary to lynch him, or if one vig dies we could lynch between ccs. Unfortunately not really sure how to approach this one. It could be also be approached the same as below, but it doesn't work as well I don't think.

Situation 3 - Four Vigs Claim
This one I know how to approach. Have all the vigs shoot each other, and docs no protect. Why? Because then, most likely, both vigs will die leaving the two ccs, who will be confirmed guilties. Now, if we ML'd a doc d1(The most likely scenario), and the vigs all shot each other and the vigs died, we'd be left with 9 people, 5 docs, 3 mafia, and 1 serial killer. We obviously lynch the sk or mafia this day, and also create a doc train. The only possible role left is doc, so if anyone dies that shows they didn't doc and they are maf. Ideally the maf will be forced to NK and the SK will kill someone random that made succeed or not. Now we continue doc training and it essentially becomes a nightless.

P-Edit: I didn't take into account that mafia could NK, possibly leaving a vig alive. Hm. We could still lynch between the vig ccs, cause there's still mafia/sk in there.

Situation 4 - No Vigs Claim
Vigs shoot whomever they want at night, and the game is played as intended.

I think it could be considered, but it's risky and I feel like there's a factor I'm forgetting. But essentially if the vigs die, we can proceed to doc train which will force the mafia to NK. If the vigs are the only ones who claim, we have confirmed clears.

Thoughts? Flaws?

@Mod: Quick question, it says doctor protects person from a "single" night kill. Does this mean that if two people shoot the same person, and they are docced, the kill will still go through?

And in regards to my thoughts on the game so far, I don't think anything really significant has happened to look upon. RVS always seems useless to me.

Oh, and hi Maru.

And experience wise, I played a ton of games at EpicMafia prior to Mafiascum. Here I've completed 4 games, 3 of which I screwed up in terribly. I've played once in real life, but when people don't care or want to think about the game, it really sucks.

[BBmolla]

who gives a fuck about balance. I'm a fan of those /v/ EM 25-player Sandbox games any day.

Forum version would be a RIOT

Oh, and this was my exact thought when I saw that game.

But it'd need a paranoid gun owner so there's at least five deaths per night. And I don't even know what kidnapper and announcer are.

[BBmolla]

Shall we have a vote then?

Yes to Vig Claims:

izak
Maru
BBmolla

No to Vig Claims:

Glow

@Glow: Reasonings? It's fine, I would just like to know why exactly. I still feel like it's exploitable in some way, I'm just waiting for someone to point it out.

[BBmolla]

I generally have a bad feeling about claiming-

I just don't like it and I think that there are several ways for it to go wrong and cripple town a whole lot more than scum

. You are putting us at an even bigger disadvantage by giving scum the only information that they don't have which are the exact placement of PRs. Also, you can vote all you want if someone isn't on board they can lie and mess up the whole thing...don't test me, I've been known to lie during these pushy claim situations. OH AND GUESS WHAT? Town won in that game perfectly after we spent pages discussing claiming for it all to fly out the window.

You need to do better than that.

How

can it go wrong? Think about how exactly it can go wrong.

Also, the town doesn't know who PRs are either, and considering we have six docs, I'm not that worried about outing PRs. Also, if our PRs

do

die, we have Doc train that'll force mafia to NK, and we'll also at least get 1 maf/sk if our PRs die.

[BBmolla]

Actually I don't have to do better than that. Every plan has faults HELL you couldn't even adequately explain what would happen with all of the claims, so you cannot hold me to a standard of disproving them until you have sufficiently proven them. Like I said, if you don't have everyone on board especially the PRs you want outed then your plan doesn't work at all.

K, enjoy your scum PM. If you're not going to try I won't either.

VOTE: glowball

Also, thinking about it,

Serial Killer would put a HUGE risk on himself by claiming vig. It's almost a for sure lynch at some point, so IMO he wouldn't claim.

Mafia don't have day talk, so they'd have the same reaction glowball is having, because they wouldn't know how to handle it.

I think the two vigs claiming is the most likely occurance. Maybe two vigs with one mafia claiming. If that's the case we get one mafia and proceed to doc train.

[BBmolla]

ah now we are talking. I don't like your plan, and I don't sheep you so I must be scumz. Glad to know how quickly you threw your plan out of the window

Expected this response.

Nope, that's not the reason I'm voting you. I'm voting you cause of you're reaction to the plan.

A town member would say "I don't like your plan. What if..." and proceeds to give examples of why the plan would fail.

You, however, said,"I don't like your plan. It'll probably fail." No reasons. You just don't like it. Why? Cause you're scum and it'll screw you over.

Glowball's reaction is exactly what I would expect from scum faced with this. We need everyone on board for it to work.

Glad I'm not the only one who saw this.

[BBmolla]

There are 4 anti-roles if I am counting correctly resulting in a possibility of 2 kills (1 from the scum faction, 1 from the SK)
2 vigs.

What do you do with 6 claims?
and 4 kills out of that same group-- you still don't know who is who and OBVIOUSLY your reads are off so I doubt that you'll be able to direct the nightkills properly

If all mafia and sk claim vig, they can't kill the real vigs because then they lose, and the 6 docs are confirmed inno and doctrain each other. That means the game becomes nightless.

[BBmolla]

OR they start taking out protective roles first? If scum skates under your radar they won't be targets, although 6 claims is a bit much 4/5 claims would be more reasonable. You guys are under valuing the doctors in this set up and having them not protect anyone and let the night kills go ridiculous how does that help? Not to mention, your plan takes a slight numbers change when you mislynch because someone doesn't agree with your plan. Let's see

You can lynch me and if I am a vig, then you are down one for that plan
You can lynch me and if I am a doctor, then you are down one protection where at least the doctors could all protect each other 3 for 3

Or we lynch you, and because you're scum, we're one step closer to achieving our victory condition.

Even if 3 mafia and sk claim vig, the docs STILL train because if someone dies on that train it means:
A. Their protector is mafia.
B. The SK and the Mafia targeted the same person.

Please note that the probability of B, if there are 6 docs and 1 maf, is 1/42(1/6 x 1/7, I think, I hated probability), and that's not even including the factor that the mafia or sk may not even attempt to kill a doctor.

[BBmolla]

Also might I add, boom, there's one flaw in the plan in my last post. However, I personally am willing to take that risk considering how low it is. If it occurs where a doc protects his target and the target dies and we lynch him and lose, then the mafia and SK got extremely lucky and deserve to win.

P-Edit: And I already discussed the mafia NK check my first post on the matter:

P-Edit: I didn't take into account that mafia could NK, possibly leaving a vig alive. Hm. We could still lynch between the vig ccs, cause there's still mafia/sk in there.

Docs still train regardless.

I would like other people to give their thoughts too.

[BBmolla]

Congrats, if the docs were VTs that is exactly how it would play out.

Two Words that you forgot to consider:
Doc train.

Even if a doctor

is

lynched it's:
D D D D D

V G G SK

MD

Vig1 is confirmed because he killed his target. We have three scum right there. GG.

I do appreciate the effort, truely I do, but I've still yet to see a reasonable cause for us not to do my plan.

[BBmolla]

In other news... found scum

You looked in the mirror I take it?

It's not foolproof no, but it DOES allow us to lessen the NKs.

What's the worst case scenario? Vigs both die? Cool, then we Doctrain it up. Game is then nightless.

Also, remember, if both vigs die and there's still a cc, THEY ARE AUTO MAF.

Any path the mafia/sk take causes a huge risk for them, ESPECIALLY cause mafia can't talk about it right now. Their best bet, imo, would be to not claim vig. Then we have two clears. But if they do claim, they have to keep one vig alive or they die. You see? Either way they get screwed.

[BBmolla]

I'm done arguing for now, you won't change your mind, and I'm pretty sure I've gotten my point across.

Hopefully your mafbros can come up with better reasons not to then you could.

[BBmolla]

We are now talking in circles. I am pretty sure none of us active posters have anything more to do than reiterate our points. glowball won't budge, and neither will we. I guess we wait for the others to check in, then go ahead with the lynch.

This.

I could expalin the whoe lthign out but it is realyl long and pointless. If you;d liek me to I will, if not, then trust me. It'll work.

And this.

[BBmolla]

Okay, did some research.

My idea isn't original.

It was suggested in this game:
Open 99
Town said it was a bad idea and proceeded to lynch the vig. Two docs died that night, they then lynched mafia. Two more docs died, a doc was lynched, and then mafia won.

I really think Vigs claiming would benefit us more than hurt us. Doctrain would lengthen town's lifespan a ton.

[BBmolla]

Yes to Vig Claims:

izak
Maru
BBmolla
Piggy

No to Vig Claims:

Glow

btw, I'm not counting initial vig claim responses, so if you still agree with them, post again to reiterate.

Oh and keep in mind that glow is at L-2 guys, I don't want ANY mishammers(meaning hammer without a claim) and you will be lynched if it happens.

[BBmolla]

Spoiler: This is what your post seems to be to me neil

White Knighting

Hopefully your mafbros can come up with better reasons not to then you could.

This is called trapping, or in better words, appealing to fear. You've now intimidated everyone in this game that wants to oppose your "precious plan", by setting the trap to make it seem like the ONLY people that could possibly be opposed to this plan are scum, thus when town have issues, they become scared to say it.

See:

ah now we are talking. I don't like your plan, and I don't sheep you so I must be scumz. Glad to know how quickly you threw your plan out of the window

Expected this response.

Nope, that's not the reason I'm voting you. I'm voting you cause of you're reaction to the plan.

A town member would say "I don't like your plan. What if..." and proceeds to give examples of why the plan would fail.

You, however, said,"I don't like your plan. It'll probably fail." No reasons. You just don't like it. Why? Cause you're scum and it'll screw you over.

I'm not voting glow because I'm mad that she won't go along with the plan. All I asked was why, and her response was,"Just cause." Do you really think her response seemed townie? Honestly.

I generally have a bad feeling about claiming-

I just don't like it and I think that there are several ways for it to go wrong and cripple town a whole lot more than scum

. You are putting us at an even bigger disadvantage by giving scum the only information that they don't have which are the exact placement of PRs. Also, you can vote all you want if someone isn't on board they can lie and mess up the whole thing...don't test me, I've been known to lie during these pushy claim situations. OH AND GUESS WHAT? Town won in that game perfectly after we spent pages discussing claiming for it all to fly out the window.

You need to do better than that.

How

can it go wrong? Think about how exactly it can go wrong.

Also, the town doesn't know who PRs are either, and considering we have six docs, I'm not that worried about outing PRs. Also, if our PRs

do

die, we have Doc train that'll force mafia to NK, and we'll also at least get 1 maf/sk if our PRs die.

Actually I don't have to do better than that. Every plan has faults HELL you couldn't even adequately explain what would happen with all of the claims, so you cannot hold me to a standard of disproving them until you have sufficiently proven them. Like I said, if you don't have everyone on board especially the PRs you want outed then your plan doesn't work at all.

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I don't want ANY mishammers(meaning hammer without a claim) and you will be lynched if it happens.

I don't know if it's your motivation, or just your playing style that I really don't like. But threatening again "you will be lynched" is angering me. ATF(appeal to fear) is not a town motivated style of playing, which I called you out on once already so far just in this game and it's only been a day. You may be pushing the town right now, but you're definitely not leading it. You will be lynched if it happens? Great, so if it's town misvoting, we now have two lynches why? Because you said so? I don't know what motivation as scum you'd have to bring up your plan, I'd have to take another look at it before I say anything about it, but I will say this... you're not playing town-motivated so far. Be careful how you play. Appealing to fear does not help your case as town.

It's day one. A wagon reaches L-1 but we don't want it to end just yet because we still need to plan out the night. So you unvote right? Well, just as you post, jimmy24 hammers on the person, lynching the Town Power Role. Jimmy says "oops sorry guys my bad :/." Do you really think this does not deserve a lynch?

I'm not saying this to scare people, I just don't want this situation to occur as I was once hammered before I got a chance to claim, and low and behold, the person who did it flipped scum.

I honestly could care less if you like me, that's completely irrelevent to the game. I'm quite sad that I'm unpopular, but I think I'll live.

Oh man it's like high school all over again ;-;

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The fact that you happened to read the entire game, but happened to not read the plan, is a really amazing feet. Seriously, well done. Considering the "triple team" or whatever was based entirely on that plan.

Read the plan please.

If your answer is still no to it, please come up with a reason, unlike glow.

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@Vitamin:

Thoughts on the vigs claiming?

And why is glowball town?
P-Edit: Ah k. Please do. I'm absolutely fine with not doing the plan, but I need to be shown that going through with Vigs claiming would be unbeneficial to the town.

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P-Edit:

It's Anti-Town as well, and while I believe you to be town this game (due to my last game with you, and how you responded to that plan... sigh)

This is very relevent info. Link?

Finally posting, I seriously wrote this right after neil's post. Jeez.

[BBmolla]

BBmolla, again thank you for your response. Please read mine carefully, before posting another rediculous photo in a sad attempt to discredit something I say.

Your first point, if I see correctly is:

I'm not voting glow because I'm mad that she won't go along with the plan. All I asked was why, and her response was,"Just cause." Do you really think her response seemed townie? Honestly.

Here's the problem with this quote. You start out with one point, change midway through and end with a completely different point. You start out stating that you're not voting her because you're mad she won't go along with the plan. However, the quote in question of mine that you've brought to the plate says nothing about your vote on her. It has to do with one of your responses to her response. Again to clarify I say, not your vote. Then, you suddenly change and it's not about your vote anymore. Now we're onto the subject of her response to your question (not your vote) being anti-town. To answer this, no I don't believe her response would benefit town more then scum, if that's what you're asking. However I also don't believe her post to necessarily be scum motivated, so much so that it would warrant a vote. I'll give you a link that you request later down this post, and you'll see why.

You lost me.
#66 she said she didn't like the plan cause she doesn't like claiming
#67 I told her to do better than that.
#69 She said no she doesn't she just insists the plan is bad.
#70 I vote. Expecting her next response...
#71 She says I'm voting her cause she doesn't like my plan.
#74 I clarify that I'm not voting because she doesn't like my plan, someone not liking the plan is fine, however, not liking the plan without providing sufficient reasons as to not follow through with it AND when asked to do so absolutely refusing is the reason I am voting for her.

I'm really not sure what you're arguing here.

You then go on to give me an example of Jimmy and his poor unfortunate timing. You ask me a trapping question (leading question, if it makes you feel better to call it that instead), by asking

Do you really think this does not deserve a lynch?

Any Mafia player knows this question is not a fair question. Who is Jimmy? What's his playing style? What was he doing at the time of the post? Was it a quick turn and burn post? (Wasn't paying attention, read the last page and thought he knew..) There's multiple factors you'd have to account for, before making that assessment. Unless of course, you believe in the LAL policy (for those that aren't following, LAL is Lynch All Liars) in which case this would be a debate of opinion, and is not necessary for this game.

Look, my point here is that I don't want people hammering without people claiming, and to make absolutely sure nobody "accidentally" does it, I added a warning.
I'll keep in mind next time to say "Please don't hammer someone without them claiming or I will be quite upset and possibly throw a tantrum." It'll probably work better.

Unfortunately, you're following point is also voided.

I'm not saying this to scare people

I'm not scum. Does it make it true? Does it rest your suspicions concerning me? Does it ease your brain? Probably not. My playing style, my motivation behind my posts, that should be your assessment layout. Not because I said I was, or was not scum. In the same manner of speaking, because you say you're not saying anything to scare people, does not make it more or less true then when I say you are. Here's where the issue comes in. I've provided evidence in which you did ATF (again, appear to fear for those reading.) While you on the other hand, gave a leading and outlandish example to further some point that you weren't? I gave evidence of the game, you... well, you did not.

Are you saying that me claiming this makes it not true? If it bugs you so much, then fine, you caught me. I'm actually Hitler and I will use fear to convince everyone to vote with me or I'll lynch them all! MUAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!
...Come on man.

I honestly could care less if you like me, that's completely irrelevent to the game. I'm quite sad that I'm unpopular, but I think I'll live. Oh man it's like high school all over again ;-;

This whole sentence was ATE. (Appeal to Emotion.) Look it up, I don't need to further explain this.

Forgot my sarcasm quotes, sorry about that. At least my point got across. I misread "I don't know if it's your motivation, or just your playing style that I really don't like." as "I really don't like you." and thought you'd actually done an AtE yourself. My mistake.

And talking about the plan is not wasting words at all, because the plan determines the entire direction this game goes in depending on our refusal of it or our acceptance of it.

And thank you, I will be sure to read her ISO.

Now please, find a flaw in the plan to back up your no to it.

Side Note: I keep reading your posts in The Rock's voice Neil, lol.

[BBmolla]

I'm pretty sure BBMolla is town, btw. His tone feels markedly different from the last game I was in with him (in which he was scum).

Ah, was wondering if you recognized me

[BBmolla]

I refuse to read a plan that seems to have been re-worked several different times. Also,

notice how I don't care.

I said I was going V/LA you guys could be a little considerate on the posting and know that

NO I don't want to read pages and pages of thoughts.

And there it is, her meta is confirmed as lazy townmember.

UNVOTE:

Doesn't absolutely clear her, but it explains her actions.

P-Edit: Just double checking and making sure this is the right topic oops -.-'

[BBmolla]

BB you need to think a little more into the doc train idea, in that situation the mafia could still kill but would have to kill a player that hasn't been assigned to any of them, and if they kill the same person as the SK then the person dies anyway, even if they are protected by a town doctor.

Alright I addressed the SK/Mafia targetting each other already. The chance is so unlikely it's not even funny.

Your doc train "exploit" makes no sense.

Let's say 6 docs and a mafia claim doc.
D1 is on M1
M1 is on D2
D2 - D3
D3 - D4
D4 - D5
D5 - D6
Who do the mafia target to get a kill without making them get auto lynched the next day?

oh noez i am against the idea am i scum now BB?

Cause I've clearly OMGUS'd every single player who said no. Congrats on not reading the thread.

and i expect more than 4 vig claims too, it is all well and dandy putting this strategy on a golden platter but the mafia can do what glow explained and shoot the doc pool rather than the vig pool, and if the vigs shoot the scum the mafia doc would be on them anyway.

That's fine. It becomes Nightless then, because the only POSSIBLE way for them to kill within the doctor pool is SK and Maf hitting same doc, which is, once again, incredibly unlikely. And hell, if the SK hits the mafia docs target, that'll out a mafia right there for us. SK hitting Mafia Doc's target has a greater probability then SK and Mafia hitting same target.

Your reasoning is the same, and as bad, as Glow's.

As per the rest of them, THEY'LL ALL BE ON THEIR PROTECTEES, so none of them will die

SK and maf will kill in the doctor pool if they are smart, and if they hit the same person WHICH IF YOU DO A DOCTOR POOL WILL HEIGHTEN THE CHANCE, then we mislynch that doctor.

See above.

Also, the alternative to vigs claiming is 2 deaths per night on average, keep that in mind please.

[BBmolla]

Oh and when you said that not everyone who apposes the strategy is scum

Hopefully your mafbros can come up with better reasons not to then you could.

Says otherwise, it makes it seem that if anyone apposes the strategy is scum trying to find better reasons.

I feel like a broken record here. Seriously. I've responded to this umpteen times, reread.

[BBmolla]

I just don't understand a possible town opposal to the plan as of now.

The maf and sk hitting the same target is the only flaw, and if that happens we still only have one death opposed to two average each night.

Using that as a reason to not go through with the plan is like wanting to walk everywhere because you might get into a car crash if you drive.

I've revised the plan a bit:

2 Vig Claims:

If two vigs claim, we assign two random people to be on the vigs. If these two are both docs, it is literally IMPOSSIBLE for the vig to die. So, if the vig DOES die, we know one of the docs gaurding them are fake. Everyone else doc trains, or if preferred, we can doc on randoms for WIFOM sake, which could be decided if this occurs. We now have two confirmed unkillable vigs. Also, with this in mind, during the day we have two votes: One to who we want to lynch during the day, and the other to who we want both our vigs to target.
Listen to this: If both vigs shoot the same person, we will have a for sure kill on everyone except the SK. And if the SK is hit, we lynch him.
Upside: Town gets lynch, followed by a 11/12 times for sure kill. Also, town has two clears.
Downside: The mafia/sk can easily target the bodygaurds.

3+ Vig Claims:

We have vigs shoot each other randomly. The next day shots are outed. If no deaths occur, cool, we lynch one of the vig claims.
While this occurs docs doctrain, reducing doc night kills to a maximum of 1, but most likely 0 docs being night killed during the night.
We don't lynch any docs who let their target die till the vig situation is dealt with, meaning all vigs dead or all vig claims dead.
We repeat this till we find scum amongst the vigs. We can still lynch both our vigs at this point and win the game.
Upside: We are confirmed to catch at least one scum, and night kills on docs are reduced to 0-1.
Downside: We lose our vigs most likely.(Honestly though, they're rather useless unless they shoot together. They can only kill 2/4 scum.)

I still stand by this being a good idea.

I need a major flaw to be pointed out for me to change my mind. And I mean Titanic major.

[BBmolla]

Oh forgot a case

We Don't Vig Claim

Upside:

Need this to be filled in by you opposing the plan.

Downside: No clears
2-4 deaths per night
Vig shot can only kill 2/4 scum.
Vigs will probably die because no one knew they were vig.

So, essentially, Vigs not claiming is very similar to 2 Vig Claims except we have no clears.

Those who say no, fill in the upside.

[BBmolla]

So you don't lynch any doctors who let their target die-- so Mafia Doctor protects someone in the vig pool adequately framing another player, and then the mafia kill whoever the MafiaDoctor was supposed to protect because you won't lynch doctors until the end. The end comes sooner, when this is a game of numbers for them...

I'm aware of the Mafia doctor protecting which is why the shooting is random.
And I said at first to lynch the doctors even if their target dies, but I got a lot of opposal to this because of the chance about the SK and shit. I personally think we should lynch anyone whose target dies, as the problem you stated comes up, but I'm wrong either way so whatever.

It's not even worth it anymore. Let's just shoot randomly tonight after MLing a doc. I don't care anymore.

[BBmolla]

I personally don't think anyone who jumped on the bandwagon did it in a scummy way. Glow's playstyle seemed scummy, and without the meta, she seemed like she reacted as scum would.

If mafia and SK target the same vig claim then the vig would still die, they are only safe with two doctors on each.

Did you even read my post?

If two vigs claim, we assign

two

random people to be on the vigs.

If these two are both docs, it is literally IMPOSSIBLE for the vig to die

.

Look. If both of them are town, they have to be doctors, meaning the vig will not die. If they do die, one of the doctors is fake.

[BBmolla]

@BBMolla- I was scummy because I went against a plan, with experience you realize that more often than not scum sheep plans and ideas as to not bring attention to themselves

No, you were scummy because you were opposed to attempting to find a flaw in the plan, because you're a lazy townie. However, without the knowledge of you being a lazy townie, it looked like scum trying to avoid the plan.

@Thomith: Ah k.

[BBmolla]

Nope. It's about laziness.

I refuse to read a plan that seems to have been re-worked several different times. Also,

notice how I don't care.

I said I was going V/LA you guys could be a little considerate on the posting and know that

NO I don't want to read pages and pages of thoughts.

This was a completely different game. Notice the similarities. Here you are not standing your ground or whatever, you are being lazy.

You're town, be happy.

[BBmolla]

K. Whatever you say. You're town, I'm town, no point in arguing.

[BBmolla]

Alright so I think most people (except for Quar and Mega who only have one post, and Neil and Glowball) are on board.

How do we want to execute this? We just want to have vigs claim right now or does someone want to say something first?

[BBmolla]

I think the best way to go by doing this is to have EVERYONE either say:

I am a Vig

or

I am a Doctor

This way we can account for everyone.

At least one Vig should claim first imo. I don't want a Doctor to claim and then have people pussy out on the plan.

Thoughts?

[BBmolla]

Popcorn style very solid.

I am a doctor

Popcorn to Neil1113

Oh, this works good too.

[BBmolla]

Maybe we should start a second popcorn train to speed this up?

[BBmolla]

Okay, assume Neil is doc, I'll go next.

I am a Vig

[BBmolla]

btw, if you're a vig and don't claim you could be gamethrowing by doing so.

I doubt Glow will claim, skip to Thomith. I'd appreciate it if she would claim though.

[BBmolla]

I don't think I should claim... I have a habit of lying when forced to claim in these situations. Also, given that I will most likely lie because I don't agree I can foresee myself being lynched at end game because you refuse to believe me then. You might as well lynch me today, and I do support Neil being against this plan. I am not letting you guys bully me into this, but without 2 claims you've got scum open to successfully claim our slots. BRAVO.

Could you replace out?

This is a serious question.

[BBmolla]

I did fight for what I believed in. I am not necessarily giving in I just don't want to talk about it anymore.

There is good in the plan, but it can also go wrong and I've already said what I propose: I PROPOSE YOU GUYS STOP LOOKING FOR AN EASY WAY OUT UNDER THE GUYS OF A PLAN THAT IS NOT FOOL PROOF AND IS ONLY SYSTEMATIC. IT DOES NOT INCREASE OUR ODDS. JUST SCUM HUNT AND STOP BEING LAZY.

Glowball, for what it's worth, my initial reaction to the plan was very negative. I like to play games the way they were meant to be played, even if that can be difficult. One thing that swayed me is the fact that this set-up is pretty much going to turn into a killfest without some sort of plan like this and not like a game of careful scumhunting or anything. This plan maybe takes away a bit of good old-fashioned scumhunting, but it also keeps the game sane.

Did you read this?

Also, claiming doesn't detract from scumhunting all that much honestly. We still have to figure out whose lying.

I truly suggest you replace out if you're that against it. You are going against your win condition by not claiming.

@post above.

No. If two vigs claim, and everyone else claims doc. We have two "lynches" per day. One to whom actually gets lynched(Which we have to SCUMHUNT to find) and the other is who both vigs shoot. This, like the lynch, will be voted upon. The decided target will be left out of the doc train, and because two vig shots go through mafia doc, mafia members are for sure dead. If the person doesn't die they are SK.

And yes, I think a game of nightless is more in town's favor. The less people who die per night the better off we are.

Claiming does not remove scumhunting in any way. It just prevents useless amounts of deaths every night.

[BBmolla]

@Neil:
Do you think I'm scum?

[BBmolla]

We're not scared or lazy. If mass claiming benefits the town, you bet your ass I'm for mass claiming.

[BBmolla]

It doesn't benefit the town if you just end up shooting town members! Like I said you thought I was scum for going against the plan, and ignored others completely obviously your reads are off.

So you're saying if we don't mass claim we won't end up shooting town members.

[BBmolla]

Glowball the only read I've given is that you're town.

[BBmolla]

Nope. It's about laziness.

I refuse to read a plan that seems to have been re-worked several different times. Also,

notice how I don't care.

I said I was going V/LA you guys could be a little considerate on the posting and know that

NO I don't want to read pages and pages of thoughts.

This was a completely different game. Notice the similarities. Here you are not standing your ground or whatever, you are being lazy.

You're town, be happy.

[BBmolla]

You are so hopeless.

Please blacklist me for future games.

[BBmolla]

I don't hate you. You just don't listen to reason.

And you wanted to blacklist me before, so go ahead.

[BBmolla]

You are fighting your own town. You are fighting your team. You are quite literally helping the scum right now.

[BBmolla]

They could both be scum and I'd never know because you're being so anti town.

[BBmolla]

Can you just replace out please?

And I'd like a mass unvote until claims are finished please.

[BBmolla]

*waits for his popcorn to pop*

Just go for it while you're here.

[BBmolla]

So remind me again what makes this (incredibly town) plan benefit us? We already have one claimed vig, and now we've put him in danger. The minute the chance comes, you better believe the scum will take him out. Then what? But by that point, I'll admit, we probably can turn ourselves out of that whole. Just please, for the love of God, do not let another person claim. We're ruining our chances slowly by doing that, by giving the Mafia information that they don't need to have.

Also, to answer your question from before, do I believe you're scum? I couldn't honestly say yes, though I don't believe you're playing pro-town... at least not as much as you can.

I'm impossible to kill if we follow the plan. If I do get killed, we have a 50/50 scum lynch the next day. If we didn't follow the plan, I could have been uselessly killed tonight.

We're not ruining chances.

You're ruining our chances by not undergoing the plan. This quite literally forces us to lynch you, because scum aren't going to kill you if you're being anti town or you could just be scum.

We're leaving you out of the doc train. If you or glowball are the other vig, then congrats on gamethrowing.

Your whole "flaw" in the plan is that we cannot scumhunt, and if that's the case THANK GOD we have the plan. Cause then we'd be lynching our vigs left and right.

You're ridiculous. Consider you either my lynch vote today or my vig shoot vote.

@Glow: You aren't playing. You are wasting your slot. Period.

[BBmolla]

Cool personal attack bro.

[BBmolla]

All I said is I'm lynching you or vig lynching you. You're acting as if I called your mom a whore. Stop being immature, it's a game.

Why don't you take your head out of your ass so you can understand what I'm saying, instead of sniffing yourself and continuously telling yourself you smell good, despite the obvious stench that comes from your lack of knowledge.

When you grow a pair of balls, then you can correct a man. Until then, learn to be one.

your thick, uneducated skull

None of this garbage was needed.

If your e-peen gets hurt because of a game you need to leave the internet.

[BBmolla]

My plan B is very similar to your current plan. Self vote and be anti town.

[BBmolla]

Also might I add the irony in you using fear tactics to make me quit my plan?

[BBmolla]

Yup.

[BBmolla]

K Glow claims doctor.

[BBmolla]

Ugh. This is getting tiresome.

Would much rather just scumhunt at this point, honestly.

This is what scum want us to do.

[BBmolla]

I don't even understand the arguement against it.

The plan requires scumhunting still. You guys want to scumhunt. Let's do this:
1. All claim.
2. Set up the doctrain
3. SCUMHUNT
4. Vote who to lynch and who vigs should shoot.

I don't see the issue. I really don't.

[BBmolla]

Whose even next to claim?

[BBmolla]

Low free time on weekends (I rarely, if ever post friday-sunday), and I haven't had the time to read the whole game.

You haven't missed much. Just a personal attack and some scum bickering.

Thomith are you going to claim?

[BBmolla]

Thomith are you going to claim?

There is a thing called sleeping, i do it sometimes.

I am a doctor

Sorry didn't mean to sound rude I literally just wasn't sure if you'd claim.

@neil: Same thing could be same about town. You're probably SK.

[BBmolla]

I am interested in the game, thomith.

and maruchan, you figured all three of those situations? because I don't recall a plan where you only have 1 vig claim, but scum would be GENIUS if they did do that. Just all of them hide in the doctor claims hahahahahahahahahahahaha

If only one vig claims, a townmember is literally throwing the game.

And yeah what Maru said.

[BBmolla]

Alright, Grey do you want to set up the protection plan or shall I?

[BBmolla]

Well scum could possibly set it up and make it work in their favor somehow(I guess). I think Grey is town, I know I'm town, so I'd like one of us to do it.

Also, he's kind of been leading the plan anyway.

BTW me and Quar are confirmed innos. You could argue that glow or neil could be vig, but they're not.

[BBmolla]

I love how when GreyICE tells Glowball how it is he needs to "grow up."

But when neil says I need to grow a pair she acts as if he's god.

Sorry I agree with GreyICE 100%, I was happy to see her be replaced because literally the person only had to say:

"Oh, hi everyone, I claim X."

And is instantly 1000 times more useful than Glow is currently being.

Anywho, we need to create the plan excluding Neil/Glow. It'll just be like:

BB protected by Doc1.
Quar protected by Doc2.
Doc3 WIFOMS.

Doc 4 on
Doc 5 on
Doc 6 on
Doc 7 on
Doc 8 on Doc 4

Correct?

[BBmolla]

BBMollA THOSE THINGS WERE VASTLY DIFFERENT AND I ASKED GREYICE TO STOP REPEATEDLY. IF SOMEONE JUST KEPT GOING AT YOU WHILE YOU POLITELY ASKED THEM NOT TO THEN I'D FEEL THE SAME WAY. IT IS JUST A GAME.

I-

Not even gonna bother. You're "LALALA I'M SO PERFECT" glasses are on too tight.

WIFOM it up, I mean the doc is on either of them. Grey came up with that idea, I think it's good. For safety, I still may prefer the double doc up though.

[BBmolla]

Not even bothering. Pointless fight.

[BBmolla]

glowball protects BBmolla

I foresee a problem.

[BBmolla]

Thank you Neil for claiming.

Glow do the same, whether you're vig or not changes this game drastically.

[BBmolla]

Let's vote on both the vig shot and lynch.

IF ANYONE HAMMERS BEFORE THE PLAN IS MADE YOU WILL BE LYNCHED! YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED! DON'T DO IT! PHEAR ME!!!!

I can try to keep up a vigshot VC, I just need people to type "

Vig: John Smith

" and we can start up another votecount.

[BBmolla]

Glow, I am sorry for tunneling you when I thought you were scum. We really need that claim or it's going to screw us over in future days.

Agreed with Neilscum.

VOTE: Neil

In before more jokes about how unmanly and dumb I am.

[BBmolla]

@Neil: I don't see how you can prove yourself to be a normal doctor as opposed to a mafia doctor without flipping.

@Glow: <333
Me and Quar are confirmed vigs.

[BBmolla]

More on that idea, greyICE you are hammering me for claiming vig when I claimed when the claims popcorned to me. You can hardly blame me for the delay in the claim. If I'd claimed out of order you'd have cried about it too. In short screw off.(at least on this point) Thanks.

Pedit: saw glows claim, I giggled at greyICE.

You're clear shh.

[BBmolla]

Are we voting upon Vig shots or are me and Quar just gonna decide?

[BBmolla]

@grey: I say we use him. The minute he doesn't follow our instruction we lynch him.

Don't understand why he wants to help us though :/

@Maru: If he's mafia, mafia has to kill for us, which is fine by me.

Vigvote

:
1. Glowball -
2. Mega -
3. GreyICE -
4. PiggyGal15 -
5. izakthegoomba -
6. BBmolla -
7. VitaminR -
8. Thomith -
9. Maruchan -
10. Quaroath -
11. neil1113 -
12. whispersilk - GreyICE

[BBmolla]

He doesn't have to help us.

And mafia don't have to kill for us, they just avoid the lynch one day.

A scum lynch day 1 here is excellent. Any flavor of scum. We have two confirmed town and 1 confirmed scum, this is an excellent day 1, lets not derp it up.

Alright, that's fine by me.

[BBmolla]

Guys dont be stupid, we direct neils kills

ON THREAT OF DEATH

if he doesnt do what we direct him to we lynch him on the spot, and we lynch him before lylo anyway, we are basically gaining a temporary vigilante.

I agree. I'd prefer to use him. Why do you want him to go so bad right now Grey, it's a bit nonsensical. As scum he would have nothing to gain by claiming SK, in fact, it would hurt the mafia as a team.

[BBmolla]

I lulzed pretty hard at that flavour

Divided on this issue tbqh

Which issue?

You read the plan and everything btw?

[BBmolla]

I will be hammering Neil, but I want to make sure our plan is solid and that we have a decided vig target.

He's going to lose anyway, and I guess we might as well lynch a for sure anti town.

@Quil: Elaborate on probable-scum-izak, your read is useless unless you explain it.

And yeah Thomith you are in no way confirmed town.

Also, considering we already outed the SK, I think this plan is going rather well, and I laugh at you who opposed it.

[BBmolla]

We're not vigging Piggy.

Also, scummiest players should be protecting the vigs. This'll force scum to kill scummy players, helping us.

[BBmolla]

I like Whisper's plan. A lot actually.

However, it is dependent on neil flipping sk.

[BBmolla]

I can only shoot #1, #2, #3, or #4. Quar can only shoot 5, 8, or 9.

If we shoot the same person, the night becomes pointless.

Let's go with Quil's plan.

[BBmolla]

NO. YOU NEED TO LAY OUT WHO IS PROTECTING WHO. I am serious, these things get exhausting to read. Don't cut corners type everything out fully every name every time, each person that each vig can shoot. This needs to be preschool simple because if it isn't followed exactly we could end up fucked.

What are you talking about. Quil lays it out.

[BBmolla]

By the by, why are the non-confirmeds setting up the night action plans?

Because it's funny to let scum set them up?

If I die tonight, you morons better make sure BB sets up every night action plan. One of the players whose setting them up so carefully is slotting their scumbuddies exactly where they want them. My bet is Izak.

Can do. I think Quilford's plan seems pretty not-scum-setting-up-his-scum mates considering it's based off the player list in OP.

I'd like to go with that one.

Are both vigs shooting Grey/Izak/Thomith in the case of SK/Goon/Doc or is it just one of us shooting them? Or is that not part of the plan anymore?

[BBmolla]

Why did we all claim in the first place? Was there an original plan to follow or something?

I posted the first plan forever ago but it was flawed.

I'm confused as to what we are arguing about.

[BBmolla]

I just realized part of my problem with the plan.

If the vig and mafia target same person it goes through regardless of being docced.

I think this is why I wanted vigs to target the same person. Just realized it.

[BBmolla]

Okay just read Whisper's plan all the way through.

Liking it. Let's do it.

Is Neil at L-1? And are we ready to go into the night phase?

[BBmolla]

Nooooooo. Let me finish typing up the alternate plan in case he is not the SK.

k

[BBmolla]

I think we broke the game.

VOTE: Neil

[BBmolla]

Nope. I shot one of my three. Shall I out which one?

Piggy is confirmed scum.

[BBmolla]

Shot Quilford.

GreyICE is no way confirmed inno, but he's a doc.

Shall I make the plan for today after we lynch Piggy?

[BBmolla]

@Maru: I guess so. That works for me anyway.

[BBmolla]

We're lynching Piggy. She's confirmed scum.

[BBmolla]

The only person who's plan I'll follow for protect order/targets is BB's. He's the only other confirmed townie. I can think of holes in anything that anyone else would propose. I don't want to mention them because then everyone would see them. Suffice it to say BB should call the shots, not glowball (or anyone else)

In that case Quar, you should probably make the plan. I don't want to make a plan with holes in it.

[BBmolla]

Time to random.org it up. I think we're good to go.

Gonna wait till everyone gives the okay.

[BBmolla]

Time to random.org it up. I think we're good to go.

Gonna wait till everyone gives the okay.

Hey BB

You're confirmed town

Why don't you go random.org it up and then tell us what we're doing.

Jesus weeps

I thought Quar said we were going with Quil's plan.

We're lynching piggy.

[BBmolla]

VOTE: Izak

I want to say a bit in end game about this.

[BBmolla]

This setup is broken and I will be bringing it up to the setup people.

I'd like to apologize to a few people.

First off, I'd like to apologize to Toasty. I promise you when I joined your game, it was not my original intention to break it, it was something I discovered along the way.

Second off, I'd like to apologize to Glow and Neil. The early game arguements and insults were undeserved and I apologize.

Third off, I'd like to apologize to the mafia for making this game unwinnable for them. This couldn't have been any fun for them.

In my opinion, I'd like for this setup to be fixed and then I'd like to play with this same playerlist and mod. But I don't really have a say in that.

Once Izak's death is declared I will be posting in Mafia Discussion forums, you guys can back me up if you'd like.

[BBmolla]

There are two issues that need to be addressed:

1. Discouraging vigs from claiming day 1.
2. Doc train being unstoppable chain.

A roleblocker would be semi effective, but considering only one vig could be roleblocked, it doesn't help that much.

Follow the Vigs is a valid strategy here, and that's unfortunately because of the six doctors.

I still feel with just a role blocker, mass claim is still viable. Less effective, but viable.

[BBmolla]

@CES: Then do you think setup is fine as is?

[BBmolla]

^I agree with this.