Open 319: Jungle Republic - Day 5: Calamity *GAME OVER*

[TheFool]

Hey everyone, interesting game so far!

Policy lynches are retarded, they solve nothing, especially in this setup.

What about this setup makes policy lynching worse?

1. What's your prior experience with Mafia at this site? At others Sites? With other players in this game?
2. If a Seer found a werewolf on the first night, would it be better to claim and get a werewolf lynched or not claim and hope they can find the other werewolf before they are killed?

1. One other game with this name, a few others elsewhen.
2. I'd claim on a guilty myself; finding one wolf typically makes the other easier to dig out.

The Ray wagon has virtue beyond Thor's evidence.
VOTE: Ray Montano

[TheFool]

Blegh theory argument.

what virtue does the wagon have beyond it?

Fluff posting. 15 posts, 0 content.

[TheFool]

This is stupid. DK, pick a stance and stick with it. They're either cheating or they aren't. Your vote doesn't need to be on a different player every page. Stop arbitrarily refusing to answer questions if your just going to answer different ones 5 minutes later.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: DeityKabuto

[TheFool]

Woah, unless you want a mislynch go ahead and hammer me, if not than lets play this game normal now and stop trying to EZ wagon me. o.o. None of you can provide 3 legit reasons for even wanting me lynch so GTFO.

1)DK, pick a stance and stick with it. They're either cheating or they aren't.
2)Your vote doesn't need to be on a different player every page.
3)Stop arbitrarily refusing to answer questions if your just going to answer different ones 5 minutes later.

FightingShadow's post is also very valid here.

[TheFool]

No, some of the votes on you are from early policy lynch requests, which you specifically indicated as scummy.

[TheFool]

Help, then. Who is scum and why?

[TheFool]

tyhess never voted DK in the first place, his vote was on Ray, which he removed because he thought Ray was at L-1 I think?

Some clarification there would be nice.

[TheFool]

The Fool never answered the 'deeper' reasons to vote Ray, did he? He should really answer that - like - na0w!

Fluff posting. 15 posts, 0 content.

To elaborate, 24 posts, no vote, no voiced suspicions, no content. His only stance thus far is "quicklynches are bad".

Could someone explain to me why it was scummy that DK called two players as having a similar playstyle?

For me it's less his finding their playstyles similar and more the way he shifts discussion with it away from legitimate questions about his wagon hopping. In essence I guess it's a function of the question derpiness.

[TheFool]

@TheFool - how is wagon hopping scummy in any way?

Understanding the rationale behind placing and moving votes can go a long way towards understanding that person's motives and alignment. Dodging questions about said rationale is therefore suspect.

Post #164... Help? What've you done this game so far that helps the town, please tell me?...

I'm feeling kinda mis-repped here; that post is a direct response to you indicating that you'd like to help. Does prodding the town's current suspect into giving his reads not count as help?

As far as opportunism and flying under the radar, I've given reasons for all two of my votes. Is there anything you'd like me to elaborate on?

That said, I'm less sold on DK-scum.
UNVOTE:
VOTE: Ray Montano
Ray, who is scum and why? (also vote them please)

[TheFool]

Whispersilk, it's concerning the extent to which you've avoided talking about Thor/Ray. It's practically consumed the thread in the last few days; do you not have a read on either of them?

I'd like to believe Thor is a good scum hunter, and I'm sure he is one when playing a town role, but I don't exclude him from being anti-town in this game just because he's aggressive. I think he is experienced, and probably plays both sides pretty well.

This is very fence-sitty, and basically says nothing. I agree that the ability to scumhunt doesn't clear him as town (there are multiple scumteams this game, so scum can even legitimately scumhunt here), but are you indicating that you think Thor is scummy? It's pretty unclear.

How do you feel about Ray's unresponsiveness to Thor's case?

[TheFool]

No. If I thought Thor was scum, I would say so. I'm saying that I believe he is skilled at scum hunting, but the fact he is being aggressive in this game does not automatically make him town in my eyes. Is what I said that hard to understand?

Yes, I wasn't sure what you were getting at in that statement, and was surprised by the lack of comment on Thor?Ray in your ISO. Thank you for the clarification.

Hmmm, what took you so long to get here?

It was 12 hours into the game...

This is pretty lol coming from someone with 1 post and 0 content. Care to explain how you can find someone with 14 more posts than you scummy? Or how this equates to virtue?

In my two posts I comment on the state of the game, express suspicion of a player, and follow it up with explanation and a vote. The first point at which I have any idea what Ray thinks about anyone is iso 28, 5 days into the game. And from there on out he largely ignores his three scum-reads anyway, focusing instead on specifically not defending himself.

If Ray's wagon had so much virtue, why jump on DK's? Was it because you thought his wagon was a safer bet?

I has hoping to get something coherent out of DK. It even kinda worked!

I don't like how you suck someone else's reasoning into your answer, without offering anything of your own other than your 3 previous meh reasons, especially as you then withdraw your vote a few posts later.

Agreeing with other people is not scummy. Inconsistency is, so I'm not sure how it's a "meh reason".

How about you give your reads on everyone, instead of jumping on and off the obvious wagons and offering nothing yourself?

...

I'll take that over 8 posts, 3 wagon hopping votes, no real voiced suspicions of your own, no reads, and fluff content at best.

Sure; list of reads incoming later today when I get a chance.

My case on Ray was unstated prior to me, so I'm not sure who's suspicions they are, if not mine? You seem to think that joining existing wagons is scummy; I'm not sure how that works.

I don't agree with quick lynches either.

Yes, that was my point. Quicklynches deprive the town of information and are often led by scum. His "quicklynches are bad" (iso 22) is a good example of what I mean; he comments that speedlynching DK would be bad, but manages to refrain from actually commenting on DK himself.

Bit of advice: Don't bother trying to divert attention attention away from yourself by making me look bad or by playing dumb. Once I have a gut feeling, I don't let go. I think you are scum, and until you do something drastic to change my mind, I will focus on you and I won't stop until my questions are answered.

That's not my intention; I'm not much for mudslinging, and if I'm being dumb, it's not playing. :(

That said, I do agree that I need to be more productive, and will try to ramp it up a bit. I have a bad habit of assuming my motives are self-evident and not explaining myself well enough.

[TheFool]

Reads!

BBmolla - townish. Reads are explained and rational. I like post 419, and agree that the game could use a wider focus.

blindfaeth - leaning scum. The recent switch to Ray is odd, considering the rationale leading up to it mostly agrees with Ray? Interested in his further thoughts on BB.

CMPunk - lurky, but null. Don't see a scummy intent there.

DK - null read due to my inability to read. Others who have played with him before claim that he's reading townie in this game, I guess? Id be fine with lynching him; not sure what to do if I end up in LyLo with him..

DonJosh - iffy. Wants to policy lynch DK, but isn't much for meta? Something feels off about his play, can't put my finger on it.

FightingShadow - pro-town beginnings, but then falls off the map. Need more content!

Ray - scummy, as detailed previously.

Sky - pro-town, good play so far.

The Tick/tyhess - townlike. tyhess's play was a bit off, mostly distracted with seer-theory and bickering with DK (don't blame him there), but I like his unvote when he thought Ray was at L-1. The Tick reads well to me so far.

Thor - nuetral leaning town. Actively scumhunting and generating discussion.

whispersilk - neutral leaning scum, see post 324.

[TheFool]

I meant I don't like using meta to build a case or read.

Isn't meta the only basis for a policy lynch?

Do you have previous experience with DK?

[TheFool]

I've played half a game with DK (I replaced out)
IIRC, you are correct, there were no interactions with me directly. But I still dislike your playstyle.
Besides,
1. The policy lynch was during RVS
2. This.

Fair enough.

CMPunk on V/LA and Ray not responding makes for a slow thread right now :(

[TheFool]

I don't know, but I have a hard time believing that Thor is wrong about both Ray AND I. I mean, come on, draw a name out of the hat of 11 players that aren't you and you have almost a 50/50 chance of picking a baddie lol.

I'm so confused here, are you saying he's NOT wrong about you?

Or are you making some sort of weird case that Thor is scum because he's wrong twice?

Well if you are bad, you are already WIFOMing the crap out of us. I was being kinda sarcastic but like I said I wouldn't be surprised.

Don't throw out accusations if you're not willing to stand by them.

Basically I was WIFOMing lol. I know it doesn't mean anything to everyone else. But in my thinking, the only two people Thor have REALLY been suspicious of are Ray and myself. He was wrong about Ray, and he's wrong about me. I just find it hard to believe with his experience and play style that both of his main suspicions are incorrect. (Note that if you are on a scum team your chance of hunting someone from the other team narrows. For example, suspicions aside if he's town just picking someone at random. He's one of the 10 remaining so 5/9 chance of picking scum. If he's a werewolf he won't pursue the lynch of his buddy so he has a 3/8 chance (3 mafia, 10 townies - himself & teammate), and as a mafia 2/7 chance (2 werewolves, 10 townies - himself & 2 teammates).

I'm not sure what you're getting at here, though.

If you mean he's deliberately targeting townies: why? We're in multiscum, he'd have a whole other scum team to hunt.

If you mean he's mistakenly targeting townies: being wrong is not a scumtell. It's even less of a scumtell if you agree with his case against Ray, which you presumably did since you yourself were on the wagon.

Also I think he was trying too hard to set himself up to be suspicious of me/pursue my lynch in Day 2 during Day 1 - regardless of how Ray flipped :p

Finding you suspicious Day 1 and voting you Day 2 isn't a scumtell, it's consistency. :P

The odds are true. We must lynch someone on the wagon today. And it's not because I wasn't on that wagon.

Eh. While it is more likely that there are scum on the wagon than off, that is only because the wagon is the bigger group. This doesn't in itself increase the odds of any given person on the wagon of being scum; statistically that's a 50% chance for each person either way.

If you think their reasons for being on the wagon are suspect that's one thing, but approaching the problem mathematically is the wrong way to go.

lol, have to laugh at this now considering the town I live in was in a state of mass rioting, arson and looting over the entire weekend.

<3

Ouch, my condolences; hope life stabilizes for you :(

Back in Day 1, I had Thor as Null-scum, and now I've moved it to Leaning-Scum because of Ray's flip, which should have been pretty obvious to everyone.

Seriously? If you thought Ray's flip should have been obvious, why did you hammer him?

I can see where Thor is going with blindfaeth, another ML.

Why are you so certain the blindfaeth is town?

Thoughts:

I like CMPunk's recent posts; we seem to be in agreement here. DK's stance is pretty scummy (519 is particularily bad). Not liking blind here either though, as noted above. Thor still reads as town to me; I'd be interested in a case that's more fleshed out than 'you were wrong'.

VOTE: blindfaeth

[TheFool]

I don't think he is deliberately targeting townies. Obviously if you are scum its in your best interest to hunt the other team to make you appear more townie and blend in. But he isn't being objective in his reads, he's just completely convinced that I am bad, just like he was convinced Ray was. As a townie your job is not to tunnel someone to death it is to ask all the hard questions and get dirty and find out the truth. Which he is not doing.

Tunneling, while anti-town, is not something town doesn't do.

Consistency isn't a towntell

Nor is it a scumtell!

BADBADBADBADBAD

Huh?

[TheFool]

TheFool, you think a 50% chance of lynching scum isn't good?

No, and I'm beginning to think I misspoke in that post. I just disagree that we "must" lynch someone on the wagon.

Think. There was a wagon on a Townie day 1. Why the hell wouldn't scum be on the wagon?

To stay away from a mislynch and keep their hands clean?

Do you think that all five scum were in on the lynch?

Also, another question for those not voting CM, what makes CM townier than the person you are currently voting?

I think the sheeping and generic reads in CM's play is just coming from a newer player's perspective, and it looks like genuine scumhunting to me as a gut read.

There were two three person groups - he was in one of them, hence he is a scumspect.

Sorry if this is totally obvious, but what's the distinction with those groupings? I'm not sure how you derived them.

[TheFool]

Because blindfaeth is in a three person group with two players I consider pretty likely town

meaning

DonJosh, blindfaeth, DeityKabuto

but

I was never super enthused on DK town - and his presence as a counter wagon to town when before that I thought he was counter wagon to scum does tend to adjust ones beliefs. Derpy-doo.

seems contrary. And even without that, I'm not sure I see the logic in assuming that at least one of the last three votes

must

be scum.

There's also scum off the wagon, but those are a little harder to predict where they were lurking until you get a couple more flips.

There's also three of them; it's just as concise a group :P

[TheFool]

1. Despite misgivings he's still more town looking than you or CM - sorry, deal with it.
2. Not scum in the last three votes of a Day 1 wagon on town with 5 scum available? Really? Where the heck were the scum then, 2-3 in the first 4 votes and then 2-3 in the three votes off the wagon? Derp-derp-herp, amirite?

Yeah, I get that, but it still seems like a jump from that to "blindfaeth is dramatically scummier than CMPunk because he was next to townier people on the wagon".

Also, I'm not sure how it's so derp-derp-herp to assume that the votes were scattered non-uniformly.

And yeah, the signiture thing is pretty pointless.

[TheFool]

This guy goes up a notch on my scum list every post...

:(

[TheFool]

Oh hey, goodposting from whispersilk! One question:

There has to have been at least 2 scum on it from your perspective.

Do you have a different perspective?

Sure, I'm tunneling CMPunk, but until she responds I will do nothing to change my vote.

Who else do you think is scum, though?

[TheFool]

Yes, in total there were 4 people off the wagon. Me, Sky, havingfitz and The Tick. We now know The Tick was town, and I know I'm town, so that leaves at most 2 possible scum off the wagon. So I know there was at least 3 scum on the wagon, possibly more, depending on Sky and havingfitz.

From DonJosh's perspective, me, Sky and havingfitz are all potential scum, meaning there is at minimum, 2 scum on the wagon from his perspective.

But for me, I know for a fact that there are at least 3 scum on there.

Make sense?

Ah, yes, it does. Thank you for the clarification, I'd managed to read that pretty wrong.

[TheFool]

Wait, Thor thinks CM might be scum?

unvote CMPunk

:D

This is hilariously bad. The moment CMPunk claims vanilla you find some lame reason to leave the wagon; Seer hunting much?

Thor's been calling CMPunk scum all Day now, so no that's not a great reason for leaving.

vote Thor

Is the case more than 'he was wrong'?

[TheFool]

Good to know!

[TheFool]

I don't want to lynch blind, almost sure he's town.

Why?

[TheFool]

vote Thor

Is the case more than 'he was wrong'?

?

[TheFool]

Seriously TheFool are you kidding? I didn't spend the first half of Day 1 arguing back and forth with Thor or anything lol. Him being wrong is just a bonus :mrgreen:

Fair enough, it's possible I'm just reading you wrong or something. I feel like my reads are way off in this game in general.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: CMPunk

BB's case is reasonable, and most of my townier reads seem to point this way.

Nice activity post, whispers. :/

Man, for serious. That was a pretty hardcore prod dodge.

More content from fitz would be nice too.

DK, what do you think about CM?

[TheFool]

Nope, no pretending here, CM's still not my scummiest read! But my vote on blind isn't doing anything, and CM's a better vote than Thor.

[TheFool]

Yes.

And the fact you don't is part of what bugs me.

why?

Oh and there goes Thor again with the OMGUS~ I'm not surprised >.>

It's OMGUS to refute the case against him? =\

"Oh yeah, I always thought CMPunk was a scumbag"

I don't recall saying anything like that. I'm honestly not even sure where you're getting that.

And hey, my favored wagon just gained some momentum, so
UNVOTE:
VOTE: blindfaeth

PEDIT: Hey, CMPUnk, who other than DK is scum? Your vote is kinda idling.

[TheFool]

Just in support of Sky's call - when did you tell us this was your favored wagon?

You do mention that blindfaeth is leaning scum, but I have not found evidence of a favored wagon.

By favored I meant 'the one I've been voting for all day". I thought that was a good indication that I liked it.

You're cutting out my quote. After I say that, there were some parenthesis that explain that I'm paraphrasing.

Yes, I know you're paraphrasing, but what are you paraphrasing? I'm not seeing anything in my ISO that indicates this. For the record, I haven't always thought CMPunk was scummy, though that should be apparent. Still not sure what you're getting at.

Maybe I didn't find it, but could you please show me where you say that blind is your favored wagon

I didn't say it in so many words, but if it helps, I'll say now that I think blind is the best lynch choice today. Calling him scummy Day 1, and voting him and questioning him Day 2 are the effects of that.

and that you suspected CMPunk all along.

Nope!

[TheFool]

Still have a fairly pro-town read on him.

[TheFool]

So TheFool, you haven't had a sinking suspicion for CMPunk at all this game?

Still

not sure what you're getting at. There's not a binary between 'thought him scum all game' and 'never suspected him'. The post where I vote even specifies: "BB's case is reasonable, and most of my townier reads seem to point this way". The fact that three of my townier reads (BB, Thor, and yourself) are all either voting CM or expressing interest in the wagon causes me to wonder if my read is off there.

just do me a favor and vote him tomorrow for his tunneling today AND yesterday

Tunneling is still not a scumtell. Not even remotely. Town do it all the time.

[TheFool]

One day until deadline; I foresee a likely no lynch.

BBmolla, further thoughts?

[TheFool]

Eh, skim, check out the cases on blind/Thor/CM, see if you're happy with where your vote is.

Are you? You're as culpable as CM in that regard.

Do you think there's no chance of lynching CM?

[TheFool]

I would also prefer a lynch, if we can help it.

You sure waited a long time to ask for it lol

This is crap, I've been trying to get you to elaborate all day now :P

Mod: if it helps, DeityKabuto does have his V/LA flag thingy up.

[TheFool]

That's L-1, for the record.

[TheFool]

Hey, I technically win! :D

The flavour was AMAZING, Shadow! I really loved it. You took the time to format every votecount, every announcement, and the graphics were great. Loved the amount of mod effort. It made the game experience so much better.

Yeah, seriously, the game was very well modded. Everything was nicely formatted, the flavor was amusing, prods and replacements went smoothly. I appreciated the effort!

What I'll definitely change in my next game is making the deadlines much shorter and be more benevolent concerning extensions instead. Basically every day after D1 of this game seemed just to drag on and stall at one point or another.

That would probably help. The players in this game, especially later on, seemed determined to run everything out to deadline, but not actually do much with the extra time. Possibly a side effect of so much the game being scum.

@Thor: I did not say it was your fault... You just had really bad luck to be in a really disfunctional team with Deity. I am mainly pointing it out for Deity, so he can learn something from it. You know, there's always hope.

I laughed out loud when I got my role PM and saw that my teammates were Thor and DK. They were the only two names in-game I'd heard of before, and for completely different reasons.