Open 323: Murder at Happy Sunshine Hospital (Scum win!)

[DarthYoshi]

*waves at Quaraoth, silavor, Newman, and MuffinMan*

Vote: teamsleep.

Because only scum know from the outset they are on a team.

[DarthYoshi]

Sorry man, you guys don't do RVS here?

I agree with everything NStride said, I like the using the docs as a vig idea. And in the terrible case where we **** up and kill town, at least we can get good info out of them flipping town.

We should control the doc kill, not the scum!

We do do RVS here.

Posting from my mobile, so this isnt going to be the most detailed post, but while i think the doc as vig idea with everyone voting is fine for day one, i would hesitate to use it after that if we miss scum, because the scum will begin to control a higher and higher proporton of the remaining alive town, and voting will be much harder to use for pro town purposes. I am willing to vote for using it for day one, but using after that should be conditional on us hitting scum either via lynch or via doc nightkill.

[DarthYoshi]

@ Team - My point is, of the responses made before Nstride revealed his 'plan', yours was the worst by far. Using other peoples logic to further your own response does not impress me.

The only person prior to Team who mentioned concern with the kill was Silvor, soooo wouldn't that mean that Darth is comping what others already stated?

I am doing what now?

[DarthYoshi]

I'm not opposed to it, but if it fails during the first attempt and it ends up backfiring, then we're at a disadvantage. I guess what I'm saying is, I do want to try it once, but if it backfires, I don't want to do it the upcoming days.

Okay, so you are not opposed to it, even though you admit that there is a chance that it could backfire, leaving us down 3 (count 'em, THREE) townies. Noted.

But wait, not only are you not opposed to it, you DO want to try it once. Sounds like scum trying to set up for an easy night 1.

I could go through your case on teamsleep and point out why each and every single one of your points is ludicrous, but that would be a waste of time. Seriously, your case is so bad it makes me want to unvote him.

I will discuss the quote above though. You slam teamsleep for agreeing with the plan even though it can backfire and saying so in his post.

What you don't seem to realize that EVERYONE that agrees with this plan understands this also. Of course it can backfire. That's kinda how the game of mafia works. Town tries to kill mafia, sometimes it kills town.

This point is so arbitrary in its conclusion it sickens me. Basically it says "even though you're thinking the same thing that at least 4 people are thinking, you're scummy for it."

You get one response to make me not vote you.

This post from tclawren is awful. Let's count the ways--

-Massive appeals to emotion: "...makes me want to unvote, "...it sickens me..."

-Thoroughly unhelpful analysis: "Town tries to kill the mafia..."

-Thoroughly unhelpful analysis masquerading as helpful analysis: "EVERYONE who agrees with this plan understands..." (Really?)

-And, perhaps most damning, the final line--if any of this outrage were authentic, I have to think tclawren would have just voted Newman, especially with Newman only having Farside's vote on him atm. Instead, he keeps his vote in the holster, which to me screams fake scumhunting when you combine it with the rhetoric he's using and the reality that he is using the threat of a vote, rather than a vote, to get reactions, which weakens the vote's power, something a townie never wants to do.

Newman is still thoroughly null to me, and I need to re-read his reactions to Farside in particular, but this particular post reacting to Newman is scummy.

FOS tclawren

Also...

-Congratulations on the coming kid, Quar!

Not to mention picking at teamsleep hardcore for little things, kind of makes me feel like there might be some partner bussing going on.

Huh? Man, I was gonna vote tclawren and then I saw this gem of a line from glowball. First, if you think it was a bussing attempt, then why stop the teamsleep wagon when bussing would imply he is scum? You're de-railing a wagon you are claiming here is on scum. Furthermore, weak speculation like this with no real evidence to go on just screams "I'm scum teeing up mislynches."

Unvote. Vote: Glowball.

I also second the request to stop it with the goofy .gifs.

[DarthYoshi]

and as for singling out teamsleep, I didn't SINGLE him out- he was paired with Newman. I am scumhunting, what exactly are you doing?

You're teamhunting, not scumhunting. It's almost as bad as serial killer hunting.

OKay, I am going to give you some time to think about what you just said and get back to me on that....

Silavor's right on this one (at least, before there have been flips). Teamhunting is a very small part of scumhunting, and on page three, is unlikely to be useful. However, it can be used by scum to pretend like they are being useful.

That being said, Silavor, what do you think about Newman's reactions to being voted?

[DarthYoshi]

I'm a delinquent and still haven't done my promised re-read of Newman. It'll happen, but it may have to wait until Monday. I just came down with a virus (ironic given the flavor of this game), and my Newbie games that I'm modding and ICing have been my highest priority.

That said...

Hiraki's entry into the game at the top of the page LOOKS townish. I am not sure it is, for one reason--he, like others, is convinced that Newman is scum, but if you check, Hiraki's vote is still not out, and I have no idea how to explain that discrepancy from any pro-town standpoint. No matter who your target is, if you claim to be that sure of someone being scum but don't have your vote out, that's a red flag. This is especially problematic given Hiraki's most recent post where he reiterates his suspicion and still doesn't vote. Hiraki is null-leaning-scum.

@Darth Yoshi: Why is reaction fishing bad? Because that's what I was doing. You even mention it in your post. So why is showing my vote off bad? I wanted reaction from not only HN, but also everyone else. The idea was to throw around some high charged rhetoric and see if anyone jumped on the wagon or if HelloNewman did something stupid to make me really believe he was scum.

As for my current opinions from the reaction fish. I've got a feeling of town from HelloNewman (I think he's being a tard though...) and I think Glowball's vote was terrible. Really, really terrible.

Don't say "tard." Just don't.

Reaction fishing isn't bad per se, but what is a great way to get someone's reaction? Voting for them. What did you explicitly refuse to do? Vote. Why are you so interested in hindering your own ability to scumhunt? There is no pro-town reason for doing so.

I'd also like to hear you explain more your townread on Newman and your vote on glowball.

Current suspect list, from most to least scummy:
glowball (his #68 is not a defense, it is an indignant reframing of what he is trying to do, and little more. with no scumhunting that he promises.)
tclawren (noted above)
hiraki (likewise noted above)

[DarthYoshi]

Darth.

Most notably, 57.

That looks like a classic FoS/Vote scenario when he flips scum.

All I have to say to this is lawlz, it took you nine posts and a prompt from another player to decide that my #57 looks scummy? This looks hella insincere, and ergo, looks like fake scumhunting. You get to stay on my scumlist.

Though, I do want to ask, it sounds like you have previous experience with scumNewman. If so, which games?

Okay see that?

That's damning content. That's something I would vote for immediately.

But no, it's just an FoS.

Who does Darth vote?

Dude, read my post again. It is blatantly obvious I was teeing up a serious voting case on tclawren, and I was, until I read that bit of genius bussing theory from glowball. I put WAY more effort into indicting tclawren's post, it is just that glowball's argument was so unbelievably scummy that it was even scummier than tclawren's post--I had to vote there, and since I didn't win the super-awesome nonexistent role of double-voting rockstar, I had to settle for an FOS of tclawren.

And, if it is as damning as you say it is, why didn't YOU vote for him, Hiraki? This is the second big inconsistency between your stated suspicions and your voting record.

I feel this is an overreaching attempt to both buddy Yoshi, and “make a case work”.

This is a good point from Q. Sil's post had left me uneasy and I was trying to put my finger on why, and this made me realize it--this is my third game with Sil, and I can say this pretty confidently based on past experiences--TownSil does NOT buddy, especially so early on in the game. Silavor makes my scumlist now, too.

Not really. Forgetting isn't a scumtell.

Yeah, but you "forgot" for several posts in a row, mate.

FTR, being partway through my re-read of Newman, the emotionally-wound rhetoric from him is independently scummy, but at least the one game I can remember him being scum, he played it cool more...granted he was under somewhat less overt suspicion in that game than he is already in now. Hence my asking Hiraki for games--meta is going to have to play a factor in this for me, at least as far as Newman is concerned.

Finally, %@#%$^, all of you need to stop looking so scummy. My vote is staying on glowball, but I need to go over my scumlist's ranking of scumminess, because I've got four, maybe five players who I think are voteworthy atm--tclawren, glowball, hiraki, silavor, and newman.

[DarthYoshi]

All I have to say to this is lawlz, it took you nine posts and a prompt from another player to decide that my #57 looks scummy? This looks hella insincere, and ergo, looks like fake scumhunting. You get to stay on my scumlist.

Shucks. I can't stand on staying on your scumlist. You know, when your credibility is already low.

Meaningless posturing.

And, if it is as damning as you say it is, why didn't YOU vote for him, Hiraki?

No, I'm saying damning in your terms.

I haven't looked into tclwaren but when you get a list of 5 against a list of two, that aren't really that good, you should probably vote for the 5 rather than the two.

This is a terrible argument to make, it is basically just saying "quantity over quality." By those standards, two minor scumtells should outweigh a cop guilty result. What you're saying is, on its face, preposterous.

it is just that glowball's argument was so unbelievably scummy that it was even scummier than tclawren's post--I had to vote there, and since I didn't win the super-awesome nonexistent role of double-voting rockstar, I had to settle for an FOS of tclawren.

But again, like I've pointed out, your argument itself shows that tclwaren is much scummier than glowball. You had one small thing that could've been a mistake on glowball's part rather than something actually scummy.

You never stopped to consider that it could be both a mistake and something actually scummy?

-And, perhaps most damning, the final line--if any of this outrage were authentic, I have to think tclawren would have just voted Newman, especially with Newman only having Farside's vote on him atm. Instead, he keeps his vote in the holster, which to me screams fake scumhunting when you combine it with the rhetoric he's using and the reality that he is using the threat of a vote, rather than a vote, to get reactions, which weakens the vote's power, something a townie never wants to do.

This is decent. I will admit that. However, due to everything else, he's not that scummy. This is just that bad mark on his overall good record.

In addition, this is way too obvious for tclawrenscum.

How exactly has tclawren compiled an "overall good record" in this game?

[DarthYoshi]

@Mod: You have Quaroath both voting silavor and not voting.

And the deadline is in two days? Hmm. I'll do a reread tomorrow and make my comments then. At this time I have a bad headache and I don't know why.

Actually, the deadline SHOULDN'T be in two days. The OP is dated July 26, which was six days ago, and the game began the following day, so that's only one week instead of two.

@Amrun: Can you please correct the deadline? Your ruleset gives 14-day deadlines for Day phases.

[DarthYoshi]

Okay, Newman coming in after being prodded and not even giving a hint at content to come is, in fact, scummy. Not scummy enough to become my #1 just yet, but if he's today's lynch, I ain't gonna fight it one bit.

@Hiraki:

Because every post but that is obv. town.

(referring to tclawren)

Please elaborate on this.

Incorrect.
Because you're working off the assumption that we magically won't hit town and we'll go to a perfect town win.

Day 2: Let's say that (god forbid) the plan backfires and, let's say, me and... I don't know, another player end up dead and both of us are town. Is your rationale that the only reason that happened is because "our scumhunting sucks" and you're willing to do it and risk the down at a disadvantage again, meaning that at worst we're down six players by day two?

I can't argue with that logic.

Huh? On D2, we'll be, at most, down three townies, not six. On D3, we'd be down six and presumably at LyLo, not D2, which is why, FTR, I said that unless we hit scum during the Day One/Night One cycle, we shouldn't attempt the doc-as-vig experiment afterwards because scum will have too much influence and make it even more likely we hit townies to set up LyLo. Without that NK on N2, we postpone LyLo to D4, even in as bad a scenario as that one.

I can't argue with that math.

And again, please, no more gifs. Even if they are of funny Lonely Island songs.

DarthYoshi is scummy because....
He's being sheeped by my other two scum reads, heavily. They all seem to be buddied up and on the same page- admittedly not the best scum read but besides that he is alright.

Wouldn't this make me more likely to be town? Scum usually aren't dense enough to just vote in lockstep early on D1--they want to divide the town, and the easiest way to do that is to stay on separate wagons.

Still digesting the giant Silavor wall. Again, it feels weird coming from him--I'm not used to the high-octane rhetoric, bold and all caps style he's exhibiting in this game, and I've seen him twice as town. Usually, I tend not to view that kind of rhetoric and style as a scumtell, because I think scum don't want to piss people off, but I have NEVER seen this from townSil, and I've gone head-to-head with him before in games.

Glowball is making bad arguments (see above, also keeping scumspects to yourself. I get keeping townreads to yourself but keeping scumreads to yourself? Durr?) but has been explaining himself fairly patiently and in some depth. I'll move my vote for the moment.

Unvote. Vote: Silavor. By my count, this is L-2 (Pedited to include Sundy's vote).

PEdit: Sundy, you like my "Yoshi" case? Lolwhut?

[DarthYoshi]

One other concern with Silavor--aside from *maybe* a clarifying question to NStride over theory, Sil doesn't do any scumhunting or questioning of anyone until after I make the case on glowball, which feels like scum waiting for a townie to legitimate an idea sort of a tell, as well as the whole "scum-look-helpful-by-talking-theory" tell.

[DarthYoshi]

Okay, Newman coming in after being prodded and not even giving a hint at content to come is, in fact, scummy. Not scummy enough to become my #1 just yet, but if he's today's lynch, I ain't gonna fight it one bit.

I don't like walls, so I will try to just quote little things here and there.

- This is a forced face of aggression. Everyone, watch out, you don't want to be on DarthYoshi's number 1 scum spot! In fact, you don't want to be on his scum radar at all. If you're on it, he won't fight lynches one bit! The only time one would

fight

lynches would be if that person were scum either trying to get some town points the next day, or trying to prevent his partner from getting killed if he thinks he can hide in that WIFOM. Fighting lynches is very anti-town;

I prefer to just post things as I see them and not pay attention to who might get lynched and who isn't.

This "but if he's today's lynch, I ain't gonna fight it one bit" shows a clear lack of individuality and attempt at mob mentality.

This is terrible reasoning packaged with lots of AtE. First, fighting lynches is NOT anti-town, I will swear that up and down. If you have a serious townread on someone, then by all means go to bat for them and say so.

Second, emphasis mine--this is scummy. Indicting me is one thing, even if it is for an absolutely crap reason. The bolded part is posturing to make yourself look good by comparison. Who is interested in making themselves look good? Scum. Thanks for billing yourself as a straight-shooter. In the parlance, we call that a scumslip, Lone Ranger. I think Farside might have been onto something.

Unvote. Vote: NStride

Third, lawlz at lack of individuality. I put cases on my own on glowball and tclawren, and at least the case on glowball gained some traction. You're entitled to your own opinions, but not your own facts.

One other item of note--you make two posts back to back expressing suspicion of me, but you won't vote for me, you won't FOS me, you're simply throwing dirt at me. All windup and no follow-through? Yeah, you're scum.

[DarthYoshi]

Other points of interest--

tclawren's most recent posts are decidedly more townish.

Sil, I'll take you at your word for the moment that I don't know your meta, but I'm still digging around.

Farside's slot is probtown. Scum would have just asked to be replaced and left it at that.

[DarthYoshi]

I swear to G-d I am amending my standard ruleset for my games to include a clause allowing me to modkill players who post gifs.

Sleepy, please explain each of your FOS's.

[DarthYoshi]

glowball's posts are scummy.
pinkfloyd is a fluff machine.
NStride has done nothing sine his OMGENIUS gamebreaking, which isn't as foolproof as one would be lead to believe.
Newman's posts are scummy.

Also, my Daycop got redirected. DY is town.

Explain why glowball's and Newman's posts are scummy, please.

If we're going to go through with the doc-nightkill scheme (since, as was noted, we are six days to deadline), I'd vote for Hiraki.

[DarthYoshi]

In my experience, NS tends to play a lurkertastic game.

[DarthYoshi]

At this point I'd throw my weight towards a vig of Pink Floyd. He's been useless, almost to Vezok levels. Needs to die at some point.

Just ISOed PF. Not only has he not posted content, but at least twice promised content was coming and didn't deliver, which suggests to me he is scum trying to skate by in the background.

Vig vote stays on Hiraki, but let's see what this does:

Unvote. Vote: Pink Floyd.

[DarthYoshi]

Silavor bandwagon FTW

You know.

I only skimmed your posts and they were mergh worthy.

I'm going to have to take another peek.

Is "mergh" bad? If so, I might agree with this.

Also, am posting this in all my games:

V/LA except for modding commitments for the weekend.

Sorry, I know that's not great timing for this game, but RL forced my hand.

[DarthYoshi]

I'm back, and am just now starting my re-read. Catch-up content will be coming later today.

[DarthYoshi]

I thought this would take more time, but page 12 just makes me want to puke, so I won't be reacting to it.

People (ahem, NS) need to remove vig votes from SK. He's being a total troll, but he's town, Farside's last post in the game screams town-alignment. Find someone else to vig-vote.

Tclawren's catch on the timeframe about glowball's case (as opposed to vote) of Silavor is a good one. And as my vote is doing nobody any good where it's at so close to the deadline, I'll bite--

Unvote. Vote: glowball. I believe that is L-2.

A glowball scumflip would not in the truly clear Silavor. Sundy actually has a good point there. It's WIFOM, so it doesn't tell us much either way, teamsleep, but a D1 mutual bus is a viable tactic for scumteams to use--the hitch will be if one of them does flip scum, to go over the ISOs in detail to see.

Hiraki has disappeared. WTF? Yeah, my vig vote stays on him. Players lurking to deadline are teh scummorz. He should die.

Newman, stop justifying your own play so much, or I'm going to have to start suspecting you more.

[DarthYoshi]

@Newman and teamsleep: you guys are the holdouts on not getting on either the glowball/quil or silavor wagons. Why are your votes still where they are? If you had to choose one of the two wagons (which I think you will), who would it be and why?

@NS: Why exactly are you not convinced that Quil is scum?

@PF: Do you actually think Sil is scum, or is there any other reason for asking the docs to vig him other than "he has the most votes"?

[DarthYoshi]

All of these unexplained votes make me a sad panda.

Ergo, I shall do one myself--

Vote: Hikari Link.

[DarthYoshi]

silavor: Since your alleged #1 suspect is now both confirmed town and confirmed dead, who's at the top of your list now?
Hikari Link: gimme dem reads.
Everyone: We should probably think long and hard about

not

doing the nightkill thing this day/night cycle. If we flunk out like that again and end up with another 3 town players dead, I

think

the following day would be lylo. Not sure.

DY likes these parts of team's post.

DY also does not like that Sil ignored team's question to him.

Unvote. Vote: Silavor.

DY believes, per his D1 argument, that we should not utilize the doc-as-vig strategy for N2. Our docs should protect who they think will be NKed tonight.

DY is currently referring to himself in the third person. He is not sure why.

[DarthYoshi]

So he's at L-2, huh? We should probably refrain from voting on him anymore then until we at least have some discussion regarding the DocVig. We don't want to put him at L-1 and let him hammer himself so that we can't get in a decent discussion. In fact
UNVOTE: silavor
Just in case someone decides to "accidentally" not read this post. Rest assured, my vote will be back on him once we have things sorted out. We probably don't want to end the day this early anyway.

Gut is telling me that this is manufactured concern. You are doing an awful lot to try to pre-emptively justify what is not that controversial of an unvote. And now I feel dirty that you were on that wagon with me.

Unvote. Vote: Hikari Link.

[DarthYoshi]

EBWODP

So he's at L-2, huh? We should probably refrain from voting on him anymore then until we at least have some discussion regarding the DocVig. We don't want to put him at L-1 and let him hammer himself so that we can't get in a decent discussion. In fact
UNVOTE: silavor
Just in case someone decides to "accidentally" not read this post. Rest assured, my vote will be back on him once we have things sorted out. We probably don't want to end the day this early anyway.

Gut is telling me that this is manufactured concern. You are doing an awful lot to try to pre-emptively justify what is not that controversial of an unvote. And now I feel dirty that you were on that wagon with me.

Unvote. Vote: Hikari Link.

Wait, what the fuck? How is this even remotely scummy? Now mater how I look at this, it just doesn't make sense as a proper justification to vote me. I mean for starters, even if it was scummy (which it's not, it's just fucking logical), how does it "make you sick" to have your vote on the same place as me? It somehow fucking magically washes away silavor's scxumminess? Massive apeal to emotion, blatant disregard for scumminess, and mind-boggling vote change for no real reason? I'm calling fucking bullshit.

FoS: DarthYoshi

It is scummy because scum often over-justify their voting moves because they know how a player will flip and will want to pre-empt finger-pointing by coming up with as many reasons as possible for why they did something.

Your FOS is scummy because throwing a little suspicion your way (on a slot that, btw, I have suspected for a long time) shouldn't ever negate a serious townread from a town-aligned player. Scum find it harder to stick to their stories and to represent a particular viewpoint because their scumhunting is manufactured.

Also, I want to take a moment to wallow joyfully in the irony of you whining about me "appealing to emotion" when your post above contains the following:
-"Wait, what the fuck?"
-"It somehow magically fucking washes away..."
-"Blatant disregard"
-"I'm calling fucking bullshit"
-And, last but not least, a serious misrep--I never said "it makes me sick." I said it felt dirty, which is a more humorous way of putting that I feel like all of the sudden my vote was aligned with a scum's.

[DarthYoshi]

Oh, I'm sorry. I wasn't aware there was such a huge difference between "makes me feel sick" and "makes me feel dirty". Truly, I have misrepresented you greatly. /sarcasm
Yeah, that's still the same shit.

Still waiting for the answer to that question, by the way. Your strong reads, what are they? If I'm so scummy for having no strong town reads, then surely you must have the strng reads if you're town.

^Note how the above doesn't deny HL's frequent use of AtE himself, despite using it as a scumtell.

Yep, I got strong town reads. Should I be giving them because my #1 suspect is telling me to? Well, you can figure these out if you ISO me, so I might as well. I've got pretty strong townreads on Krew (largely due to Farside's play, Krew himself is mostly a troll), tclwaren, and Quaraoth, though Q's read is weakening the more and more he lurks.

[DarthYoshi]

OMGUS vote is OMGUS.

[DarthYoshi]

Quar--the other thing I should have added is that for that scumtell to work, it would mean that if HL flips scum, Silavor is almost certainly town, because scum wouldn't bus like that, since they know they're right. If we do lynch HL, I do think it probably means Sil is town. If HL is town, Sil could still very much be scum, and he is def on my scumlist.

HL--take a fucking chill pill. I'll swear by this up and down, being nitpicky is a good thing in mafia, it is often how scum are caught. My views about your playslot aren't inconsistent at all, I was pushing hard for a Hiraki vig well before you ever touched this game. You were already facing an uphill battle for my townread, and you blew it with that post.

[DarthYoshi]

I'm really trying to find something useful in this back-and-forth between Q and SK, but SK, why exactly do you want Q dead that badly? I'm still leaning towards Q is probably town, and this back-and-forth isn't doing it for me. Convince me.

*Also am noting the irony of HL being so up in arms over my play that he switches his vote off of me with such ease...hehehehe*

[DarthYoshi]

Why exactly is everyone on board with a docvig voting when the town/scum ratio right now is 7:3?

Please tell me we are only considering this if we lynch scum today, and even then, I'm still not liking it that much.

[DarthYoshi]

lol, re-reading that made it more followable. Okay. I get it now. I need to stop posting when I'm uncaffeinated.

[DarthYoshi]

FTR, I think whichever of Hikari Link/Silavor isn't lynched is the more urgent priority to kill off--PinkFloyd has just run about going "herp de derp" all game, which feels more like newb than scum. Even newbscum would try to pretend to be more active, albeit perhaps unsuccessfully, but wouldn't be so transparently acting as dead weight right now.

[DarthYoshi]

I agree with DY. Hikari would be my second choice right now, if silavor wasn't so deliciously dripping with scumminess. So I think a Hikari vig would be cool after we lynch silavor.

...in your immediate previous post you say you want a PF vig, and now you're saying he is, at best, your #3 with no real reasoning?

...

FoS: NS.

[DarthYoshi]

I agree with DY. Hikari would be my second choice right now, if silavor wasn't so deliciously dripping with scumminess. So I think a Hikari vig would be cool after we lynch silavor.

...in your immediate previous post you say you want a PF vig, and now you're saying he is, at best, your #3 with no real reasoning?

...

FoS: NS.

I see the problem. I had written up a post in the interim ranting on about Hikari and his arrogance, and leading town, etc. Apparently it never made it to actually be posted (not surprising, as I wrote it at about 4 in the morning...). So, yes, pinky is not nearly as scummy as Hikari and silavor.

...and do we not get to see this secret post?

Also,

V/LA through Sunday. Sorry.

[DarthYoshi]

Posting from my mobile to say--

@Singer: Why is your vote not out? You've contributed very little since replacing in.

Unvote. Vote: Singer.

@Amrun: Can we get the deadline listed with each new vote count, please?

[DarthYoshi]

And I will vote no one for the vig because I feel it will fuck up the town and secretly I feel that the docs will choose who THEY want.

This is dumb. If town hadn't established who we wanted to vig at night, and the docs were flying solo on this, I would've suggested protecting the scummiest person. Which essentially would've done the same thing but less accurately. If you leave it open, there's the possibility of THREE kills per night, as opposed to only two.

The fact that you don't even have an input is just a cop out because you don't want to feel responsible if we were "wrong."

More posting-on-the-go...

Pretending that I didn't vote you because you are not at all proactively scumhunting isn't a defense.

I'm serious about this lynch. People should start voting Singer.

[DarthYoshi]

Pressure-voting doesn't work on me.

But now that there's a nifty-little V/LA tag, it'll be a little more obvious to people that I've been phone posting since the 3rd.

Please.

I guess it doesn't work in that you're still not scumhunting.

Which is all the more reason to lynch you today.

[DarthYoshi]

Singer's not a newbie.

Though FWIW, I did have a vote on PF at some point in the game, IIRC.

[DarthYoshi]

Singer's not a newbie.

Though FWIW, I did have a vote on PF at some point in the game, IIRC.

It's that kind of attitude that clouds town's judgement. Holding people to a different standard just because of the amount of time they've been on the site. Let me ask you a question: if you were forced to consistently phone-post for the past three weeks, would you be as active?

Why is it ok to hold different players to different standards?

The "it's this that clouds town's judgment" line is a vague suspicion cast on someone putting your feet to the fire, with nothing whatsoever to back it up. That is scummy.

I am not merely holding you to a different standard--as I noted, my vote was on PF earlier in the game.

But if you accept the premis that I am, it is ok to hold different players to different standards for two reasons--one, because player's playstyles differ (holding Empking to the standard of posting walls of substance, MoI style, to show he was town would be ludicrous). Two, and especially importantly, I have seen you promise content and not deliver it before as scum. Hey, Silavor, remember Newbie 1048? Your vote was on Singer like white on rice when Mastin pointed that out. But instead you're casting doubt on my Singer vote. Why?

Finally, allow me to answer your question with a question--why did you replace into a game when you could only phone post for weeks and couldn't deliver much content?

[DarthYoshi]

Also, equally telling is that you still have neither voted nor told us who, if anyone, you suspect.

[DarthYoshi]

DARTH YOSHI
ARE YOU SCUMCLAIMING?

No. I'm ignoring you.

But if you must know, I think your interaction with NS looks like classic town-on-town.

Q is becoming increasingly difficult to get a read on atm.

[DarthYoshi]

Hey, Silavor, remember Newbie 1048? Your vote was on Singer like white on rice when Mastin pointed that out. But instead you're casting doubt on my Singer vote. Why?

Because singer wasn't on vacation then, and didn't have to read and post solely through her phone. Moreover, you're basically suggesting that singerscum is falling for the exact same scum tell twice in a row with the exact same people around to catch it. I'm not saying you're wrong, but I'd rather reserve judgement until she has proper computer access.

That said, though, Singer, your semi-regular check-ins make it seem like you're at least reading the thread and keeping relatively up to date. Have any thoughts to share?

If I'm not wrong, then how about you help apply some pressure beyond just basically saying, "Heeeeeeeey, singer, what's happenin'? Listen, if you could sort of actually help catch scum, that'd be great?"

[DarthYoshi]

Hey, Silavor, remember Newbie 1048? Your vote was on Singer like white on rice when Mastin pointed that out. But instead you're casting doubt on my Singer vote. Why?

Because singer wasn't on vacation then, and didn't have to read and post solely through her phone. Moreover, you're basically suggesting that singerscum is falling for the exact same scum tell twice in a row with the exact same people around to catch it. I'm not saying you're wrong, but I'd rather reserve judgement until she has proper computer access.

That said, though, Singer, your semi-regular check-ins make it seem like you're at least reading the thread and keeping relatively up to date. Have any thoughts to share?

If I'm not wrong, then how about you help apply some pressure beyond just basically saying, "Heeeeeeeey, singer, what's happenin'? Listen, if you could sort of actually help catch scum, that'd be great?"

Why are you so insistent on pestering Singer while she's V/LA? I'm pretty sure we've all made our point already; singer needs to provide some content, or else the three or four of us asking her for reads are gonna get angry. In the meantime, though, pressuring someone who's not even here isn't all that productive when there're people like Q and PF floating around.

Dude, the deadline is in four days and she hasn't contributed diddley shit to helping town over the course of nearly an entire game day. That is why I am so insistent on pestering her. That and, apparently, she isn't limited to phone posting after all.

Also, funny story--because of this post, I actually think Singer should be lynched not only for being scummy, but because it will be very informative as to your alignment--the final sentence looks like you trying to refocus attention on two other players, and a Singer scumflip would not only implicate you, but exonerate Q and PF.

So yeah, I'm gonna keep pushing the Singer lynch. Go, wagon, go, go, go.

Darths defense of PF’s obvious scummy/dummyness is intersting, as is his dogged pursuit of singer.

Interesting how? I'm especially curious about your answer here because you have pretty much taken over the pushing of the singer wagon in the last RL day or so.

@PF: Who did you protect last night and why?

[DarthYoshi]

I don't really like how DarthYoshi thought he could try to use the same "tells" from a previous game, appealing to silavor who was also in the game.

So...let me get this right: you don't like that I am using my own experience to scumhunt?

Yeah, you're scum.

I think in a LyLo, PF if he's town, is the mislynch that costs us the game if he's alive. Taking PF into a LyLo is a scary idea to me. And there's always that very real shot he is lying about being a doctor and is you know, scum. I never like it when any player defends someone else who is playing scummy, because they are "new". I have a very hard time taking the doc claim seriously. I think he's the mafia doc, and is flailing "I'm a doctor damnit!" But the chance of him getting lynched today is remote, so... bleh.

I found your chasing of singer interesting because it was very out of place within the rest of the discussion thread. at that point it was swirling with NS/PF/Me talk and it stood out. I went and looked and saw what you did. It got my attention, and in *part* of why I jumped in on Silavor's question to you about why you were pushing someone on a V/LA. I hadn't really registered singers absence, since I'd been playing games with her outside of MS.

So yeah, it was interesting. that post i started out as a quick hits, and copy and pasted the initial thoughts into word, then went, reread more carefully, and typed out the last bit about singer in the same post.

This doesn't make any sense. First, a PF lynch is still on the table--3 votes are on him, if you switched yours, he'd be at L-2. You say he's scum, why aren't you voting for him? Second, yes, PF could be the scum doc, but I also think that if he had competent scumbuddies, they would have told him in the QT during confirmation or N1 not to claim until L-1 once they realized he was a newbie. His claim suggests panicked town more than panicked scum.

Second, are you seriously dinging me for being "very out of place" when the thread was going around in circles? You say you "saw what I did," what is it that I did that was so freakin' interesting that all you could do was call it interesting without elaborating?

You're hemorrhaging towncred right now.

@PF: You need to switch your vote. An HL lynch isn't going to happen before the deadline; put your vote where it will matter. Preferably on Singer.

Still want a Singer lynch, obv, but am fine hammering NS or PF to avoid a no-lynch if need be. Ideally, we'd lynch Singer and, if we're vigging anyone, it should be Silavor.

I have a friend who is a freak of nature and can do it with an attached arm.

I honestly think there is something wrong with his torso because he can do some freaky shit with it.

He should have been a contortionist instead of a preacher.

He probably just has a demon.

[DarthYoshi]

If I had to take a guess on who I thought scum were, I'd say Nobody Special, tcl (<-both of those were from reactions to my preliminary guess at alignment), and someone from one of the other wagons. I have reason to think Quaroath is town BUT THAT'S USING OUT OF GAME INFORMATION SO I WON'T LET IT AFFECT IN GAME DARN YOU.
And DarthYoshi...has made a pretty crappy argument all things considering. He thinks I'm scum because I acted the same way in another game where I was scum due to two mutually exclusive reasons (hint: being in the hospital did not make me scum you jerk). And actually, my other game is finished so I can talk about it now, but I'll tell you that I was the doctor in that one, too, and specifically made a conscious effort to stay out of the limelight. Good job at outing two docs (and wanting to kill BOTH OF THEM) on day two you guys. Scum's getting an easy friggin win.

That's about all I care about giving you guys to work with since I'm tired, on vacation, and dealing with...you guys... >_>

First, I'm not fine with you calling me names. Knock it off.

Second, YOU DECIDED TO REPLACE INTO A GAME WHEN YOU WERE ADMITTEDLY ON V/LA-VACATION-WHATEVER. You have nobody to blame but yourself for getting wagoned for lurking along for nearly an entire game day.

Third, if doing next to nothing is your idea of optimal PR play, then please, try a different strategy.

Fourth, only part of my argument against you hinged on our previous game together, and it was in that both games, you promised content and then failed to deliver. I was (and am) dinging you for way more than that--not scumhunting (at all), not voting until poked multiple times, and general lurkertastic behavior.

Fifth, appeal to emotion much? Oy vey. It's like you're coming up with excuses for why you shouldn't be helpful when, if you're town, you still win with us in the end.

Sixth, you were dinging me earlier for my tactics in scumhunting on you, but now, apparently, based on your list here, I must still be town?

Seventh, if you're claiming, full claim, please. Who did you protect N1 and why? (FTR, PF, sorry I missed that in your claim. But I don't see this info in Singer's, which should be telling.)

Eighth, I don't know why I numbered these. It seemed like a good idea starting out.

[DarthYoshi]

Singer, I don't want twilight to become a pissing match between you and me, so I will say just these two things to you, and if you want the last word, by all means--

I do apologize for insulting your playstyle. The bottom line is that I was irritated and said something I shouldn't have.

I generally believe that in mafia, you can make 99.9% of the arguments you need to make, ever, without having to name-call. You did not need to call me a jerk, you simply did. I didn't say it was scummy of you, I simply asked that you not do it. That you were in the hospital during the previous game sucks, but the ONLY thing I was connecting from that game to this was your promising of future content, which, if memory serves, you were doing before getting sick. The not-being-around argument was a point I was making independent of previous experience with each other.

If you want to continue this conversation via PM whenever Day 2 officially ends and Amrun locks the thread, please, please PM me.

Okay...

PF, WTF? That was an awful hammer.

HL, why are you all of the sudden back on lynching me?

[DarthYoshi]

Vote: PinkFloyd.

Should be pretty obvious.

[DarthYoshi]

HL, unvote now. With 6 total alive and 2 of them scum, this is MyLo (mislynch or lose). No lynch is the right move to make here.

Vote: No Lynch.

[DarthYoshi]

Also, FTR, in case we do no lynch (which we should) and I am the next NK, I want to say now that contrary to my earlier read, I am currently almost certain that HL is in fact town. Going through PF's votes, all of his votes were, I believe, on confirmed town (tclawren, glowball, singer, etc) except for HL, which to me says that PF wasn't the type to bus, especially with as hard as he was pushing a Hiraki/HL playslot lynch on D1.

Ergo, this means that the remaining scum are almost certainly two of [NS, Q, Sil, TS].

[DarthYoshi]

:headdesk

@HL: No Lynch is NOT a waste of time. At both LyLo and MyLo, the town loses if it mislynches. But at a 3:2 LyLo, random chance states that the town has a 40% chance of not losing, whereas here, at a 4:2 MyLo, that chance is 33%. And that is irrespective of the tells and opinions we have formed. So WHY are you willfully trying to decrease the town's chances of winning here? The math doesn't lie.

@Q: I get what you're saying, though the lack of strong rhetoric from you is worrisome to me (I recall you as town in Follow the Cop, where you were much more insistent on hounding your scumreads rather than saying "this makes my gut feel bad"). There is only one reason I decided to say what I said about HL, and that is I was a staunch proponent of killing that playslot earlier in the game, and I didn't want to take for granted the only opportunity I might have to publicly reverse that read. If it had been a read I was more lukewarm about, I almost certainly wouldn't have bothered.

@Sil: What say you? You've posted elsewhere since this day started.

@NS and Teamsleep: Same question to Sil. We need you to weigh in here.

[DarthYoshi]

Bleh...I probably made that particular NK a certainty with what I said the previous day, but at least we aren't mislynching HL in LyLo. I am fully prepared to take some flak for this postgame.

Now that it's LyLo, I'm asking why I am here and why all of you are here. I've never had a whole lot in the way of impeachment of my towncred except for HL (though with what HL has said about me, I'm leaving open the possibility that I am the mislynch candidate for today), so really, I'm guessing it is because my initial reads in the game were wrong. If so, this would strongly suggest that Q is in fact scum.

As to why all of you are here--Q has had even less suspicion on him than I have had over the course of this game. I'd be amazed if any of Amrun's VC's had a vote on him. Again, this suggests that he is scum, as a player with such towncred surely would have been NKed by now.

NS has been incredibly difficult to read, but I maintain that his interactions with Skrew look like town-on-town (which would make sense with Skrew flipping town). I'm willing to gamble he is town; at the very least, he isn't my strongest scumread.

I have to think that Silavor at this point is either scum or one of today's strongest mislynch possibilities if he is town because of the suspicion he has been under pretty much all game. He was onto PF and Q earlier, but is still alive now, which suggests to me that (assuming NS is town) unless he was trying to perform a double-bus, either Q is scum or Sil is scum, but they are likely not scum together.

TS has done a fantastic job of floating under the radar as of late, and reading him has, like reading NS, been quite difficult for me. I tried going through his ISO and all those fucking .gifs made it too painful. I really need to think about him, I can't believe he is still null to me, but he is.

So, in short, I am convinced that either Sil or Q is scum, but I am not certain they are scum together. Nevertheless, I think they should be the top two candidates for lynching today, but seeing as how it is LyLo, I will not vote just yet.

[DarthYoshi]

TS's vote of me is clutch--it says a TON. First, I can't imagine a townie literally risking the entire game on the chance that a dead VT was right. But second, HL WAS PUSHING A Q LYNCH YESTERDAY, NOT MY LYNCH. If TS is really going to sheep HL, then voting Q would have been the obv play. Instead, his vote of me looks like trying to create a counter-wagon. TS says in his first LyLo post that he's going to re-read, and then just sheeps instead. That look like a pro-town work ethic to you?

Okay. Now that I am posting, everyone in the game has posted at least once within the last, what, 18 hours or so, since Silavor's Q vote, and there was not a quicklynch. Ergo, I believe my initial hypothesis was correct in that either Q or Sil is scum--if both were town, we'd likely have seen the scumteam quickhammer.

Next--if TS is scum, then he almost certainly has to be scum with Q, otherwise he would have voted Q and waited for his buddy to quickhammer.

Finally--Q is using what little time he has right now to justify his own play, and NOT to scumhunt. This is scummy.

I think Sil is right and we are looking at a Q/TS scumteam. Part of me wants to lynch TS first, since is scumflip would seriously be the nail in the coffin for Q, whereas I guess a Q scumflip still leaves open the possibility of a different partner--likely NS, as I'm still not sure Sil was pulling off a double-bus. In my experience, scumbuddies usually bus each other one at a time.

So, Sil, what say you to a TS lynch instead of a Q lynch? I mean, I'll probably be ready to lynch either, but if you're right and TS flips scum, this should be an auto-win for town.

Also @Q: I'm not talking about your push for a Vasudeva lynch. I'm talking about your push for MY lynch after I slipped and changed my stance on the cop claiming.

[DarthYoshi]

Rofflcopters, TS, you just had to weigh in on the cake line, but you have nothing to say about my trying to persuade Sil to lynch you?

Yeah, you're probscum.

[DarthYoshi]

Your vote on me is for abysmal reasons, especially for LyLo. Your vote also makes it look like you're trying to protect someone, most likely Q. You have done a laudable job of floating underneath the town's collective radar for the last few game days. Finally, if you needed my case explained to you again, why didn't you just say so the first time?

What part of that don't you get?

[DarthYoshi]

And FTR, the last eight or so posts of NS's ISO are collectively fluff. You owe us some content, man.

[DarthYoshi]

V/LA through Wednesday.

Sorry for the frequent V/LA's, this should be the last for the duration of the game. If I'm lucky, this V/LA should be more limited access than true no access.

[DarthYoshi]

Again, disingenuous. I didn't push for your lynch, in fact I never pushed you at all until post claim. I called you out on flip flopping, but I intentionally didn't make a big deal out of it. In fact I didn't even VOTE you, I just asked you how you reconciled two opposing views, and FoS'd you. That's hardly "pushing a lynch"

Dude, you said postgame that my flip flopping was what confirmed me as scum to you. You had zero-ed in on me pretty good.

As for your theory of a DY/Sil team, I can offer you my entire scum meta: Mini 1121, Mini 1146, Open 298, and Open 301. I do so for two reasons--first, I have yet to bus a buddy on D1 unless I absolutely had to. I voted Sil pretty early on D1 and had no need to do so out of self-protection or anything of that sort. Second, I usually stay on separate wagons from my buddies on D1. This was not the case towards the middle and end of D1 with Sil. When you look at my D1 interactions with Sil and my scum meta, the two do not match at all, and in any case, your own reasoning for it is really very vague-sounding.

[DarthYoshi]

i'll do it if you vote DY tomorrow.

As recently as your ISO 64, which would be ten posts ago in the ISO, you refer to Q as town. Haven't said a word about him since. That you are already thinking ahead to a subsequent LyLo in which Q is gone indicates that you KNOW Q will flip scum.

In the parlance, we call that a scumslip.

Boys, I really do think we have our scumteam. I'm comfortable enough now to

Vote Quaraoth.

[DarthYoshi]

Quick posting from my phone--

My reads were off all of D1 and D2. I'm sorry, town. Not my best showing as town.

After three games with Q, I don't think we've ever been on the same side once. He's also won all three games.

Amrun, you are indeed an attentive mod, but I would request that you please, please always include the deadline in your VC's.

@Hoopla: I think after reflecting on it that this is a scum-sided setup (and I'm not just saying this because town lost). Scum have two good PRs, and town has three that either are significantly weakened (if they don't agree on protection targets) or are collapsed into a relatively mediocre PR (vig). Town doesn't have the firepower to stack up with that. I'd remove either the maf doc or the maf RB, but that may just be me.

[DarthYoshi]

This setup would be too easily broken without a RB.

For example, if the mafia Doc dies before any of the Doctors die, it would be literally impossible for scum to win this without a roleblocker because 2 goons are powerless against a 3-way masonry that can protect each other from dying. All docs would have to do is claim. If a 4th doc claim happens, they just organise protects between the 4 of them and if one of them dies, they know who the fake-claimer is and it becomes 2 conf docs vs 1 goon. etc etc etc

There are probably variations that could balance this but yeah, I don't think flat-out removing the RB is the way to go.

Yes, that scenario is broken, but it also has an easy fix--all mafia lynches/vig deaths will flip goon, and the doc isn't revealed until postgame.

And Q's idea about even/odd being a protect/kill is a good one, imo.