Open 316 - Hard Boiled (Day Two)

[Oversoul]

/confirm

[Oversoul]

My idea for claiming is this: basically just the Hider/HT/det-psych claiming and the hider/det-psych co-ordinating night actions. This narrows scum down to a pool of 9 players and also means PRs can avoid each other (with the exception of the vig-tracker). Lynch one. Hider hides behind another (who he/she announces before nightfall). det-psych and vig-tracker would check/kill whoever they want of the remaining. Scum will target the det-psych first prob, then assuming the hider dies we can go from there. Worst-case scenario is that we go into MyLo D2, but that's happened before and turned out well, so 'sall G. Best case scenario, PRs rock scum and we win, gg.

Scum really cannot counter-claim in this setup, so I don't think counter-claims will be an issue, but if they happen, it can be discussed if/when it happens.

Anyway, I figured I'd lay this idea out here as a basis for discussion, BUT I don't think it should actually happen until much later in the day.

Also a good discussion point is whether or not the vig-tracker should choose to be a vig or a tracker. I personally prefer vig. As long as the vig doesn't take out the det-psych N1 with the hider hiding behind

her,

I think it's a much better choice than tracker. Although it depends on the D1 lynch, really. If scum is lynched, Tracker might be a better option.

Am I missing something here or did the detective already (soft)claim? Or are you just using a random pronoun because you feel like it?

I don't think a mass claim is going to be beneficial until it is confirmed whether or we have a vig or a tracker. For your set up wouldn't it be more beneficial to have the detective, especially if Mafia fake claim a vigilante?

[Oversoul]

Ok.

Hoopla, what percentage for success would you give your game-breaking set up? I am a little hesitant to go all in, but if it is for the good of the town I will.

pedit: (is this when you edit your original post as someone makes another?) That makes sense. I was seriously confused when he used her to describe detective lol.

[Oversoul]

Ok. I am posting to check in with everyone. I already perused the new posts, specifically Hoopla's plan and than the situation with the Hider role, but I will need to reread the posts again in order to (hopefully) gain a full understanding of the plan. It is a lot to wrap my tiny little head around, so bear with me please.

My opinion still stands though, we should wait until after the first night if the PRs are going to claim. Hopefully the Vigilante doesn't kill a PR on accident.

I have a few reads, but I will post those later when I have more time to think.

[Oversoul]

Also, if we do go ahead with this, I have some things I will discuss after mass claims are over.

Wouldn't it be better to discuss before hand, incase Hoopla has overlooked something?

[Oversoul]

No, 3/6 split is better. It almost guarantees scum in both pools.

Agreed. This seems most optimal for town.

[Oversoul]

I'm not zMuffin, but I would have to say that Up is my favorite Disney movie. :3

[Oversoul]

What's with the T's, Hoopla? O_o (forgive my stupidity)

[Oversoul]

I have zMuffinman and Neil as scum. I also have a few opinions for people who are power roles, but I would rather not say their names should anyone magically disagree with the plan.

[Oversoul]

Neil Read:

Okay I'm going to risk looking stupid and probably getting heat from others in this game for "not reading the thread" or whatever, which I'm fine with. Hate me if you want. But I can't quite figure out from the postings between Am and Glow, is the plan a no-go?

Why does it matter if you get heat at this point? If you are legitimate town you wouldn't be scared of such heat. This post shows cautiousness which is somewhat a must for scum.

Glow, you keep bringing up the possibility that Hoopla is scum and using this plan to her advantage? In your mindset, how would this plan benefit the scum team, if you were scum? Because I can only write this off as town minded, considering how it turns the playing field to benefit us, and not them? Unless I've missed something?

It looks like he is trying to fish for some loophole in Hoopla's plan. The post gives me an anti-town vibe especially with the unnecessary last two sentences.

Muffin, I'm with you there. I have very little reads, because I feel like this game is going away from normal Mafia to formulate it's new plan. I would rather this game just get on, either with the plan or without it. But I'm tired of spending the past 7 or 8 (maybe more?) pages between three people discussing the plan...

This post seems nervous. Hoopla at this point already stated the fact that using the plan would be much more beneficial to the town than just trying to play normally. However, Neil wants to ignore this "for the sake of the game". If he was town, he would go with the plan and ignore the fact that it has taken a while to work out all the kinks. Also, this is the first time that he makes any recognition that zMuffin is in the game. It almost seems like at this point he is purposely ignoring zMuffin.

UNVOTE: Neil1113
It was supposed to be a reaction test, but we got really sidetracked, so there never even was a reaction.

To be fair... I didn't even notice you voted for me. Sorry. If you'd like to vote for me again, I'll gladly give you a reaction.

Glowball makes me smile with her style of play, but I think town is wrong to go her direction for today's suspect pool (or in other words, a main wagon on her would be a mistake I believe because I believe her to be genuine town.)

I'm not sure what the case on LittleGreen is, or why people find him/her suspicious? I think I'll have to look over this play slot before I can really comment on it, but I'd like those that are serious about pushing this slot to explain why.

Jakesh I'm pretty sure just dodged the prod, and is lurking. Noted. If you don't have time for the game, why bother playing it in the first place?

Amrun makes me nervous, because she has a "really townie" feel about her. But I'm very tempted to fall into a too townie fallacy with her, so I'm trying not to think about her too much.

Ever since Glow's mention of the possibility of Hoopla being scum and orchestrating this plan, it's got me nervous about the Hoopla slot. I really wish you'd explain to me the benefit to scum this plan would have though Glow, because I just don't see it. And I've tried to imagine it.

Probably the scummiest post of Neils. In my opinion.

The reaction part is negligible. I don't see anything inherently scummy there apart from the fact that he can now "prepare" a reaction. Why bother even saying "vote again, i'll give you a reaction" if you already know it is coming...

The first (real) paragraph and the last paragraph focus on Glowball. He *knows* she isn't scum because she isn't on his team, but is willing to keep her around because she makes other townies nervous and apprehensive. If I was in a scum team I would sacrifice her first, seeing as the scum don't get any power roles to lose and everyone is already suspicious of her playstyle.

Again, though he asks Glowball, what mistake could exist for the scum. He really wants to know and this is in

DIRECT

contradiction to his earlier comment saying he wants the game to go "with or without the plan". Why ask that question if you want the game to move forward? You are only impeding yourself by asking another question. In addition, he needlessly adds to the Hoopla paranoia that Glowball legitimately created out of fear. What better way to avoid a mafia murder plan then to peg its creator as scummy?

His LittleGrey comment doesn't give anything of substance here, but his explanation is completely horrible later on in the thread. Plus, he immediately hones in on the fact that people are calling him, zMuffin, and LittleGrey as scum buddies. What do you have to lose here Neil? Those are just suspicions that won't come into play for a while and you can prove your towniness later.

Nothing overtly scummy about his Jakesh comment. Also, Jake is playing the same way in [redacted]. Neil should know that because he is also playing [redacted]. Seems like a fluff comment to give himself credibility when he inevitability goes after the lurker/inactive player for a mislynch.

"Too townie"? Are you serious, Neil? To me this is just fear mongering and fluff to dispel suspicion from himself or another scumbuddy just like the Hoopla comment.

PS: Oh, neil... You're scum again, aren't you? That sucks. Was hoping for a town game with you.

How'd you know??? What gave it away? Dangitt, I thought I was doing so good too!

Actually no, not this game. So we have a town game together now! However I'm going to be very upset if we lose.

The first part is completely unnecessary. I think this is an allusion to the zMuffinMan/Neil scumteam that he will *definitely* say is sarcastic or such.

Grey, now I see why people think you're scummy. Out of the three people you signaled as scum, you picked the one person that is least likely to address your suspicions based on his play this game? I'd have picked Muffin first, since he's active and would be most likely to address my suspicions, then Quilford, because I know Quilfs meta, and I know Quilf will respond if pressured, and THEN FINALLY, if both have cleared their name for the time being in my book, then I'd address Jake. It seems like this post of yours if a false sense of scum hunting, and you just don't really want to be confronted with your reads, so you picked the one person that is least likely to confront you about them and pursued your lynch target on that person.

How does you knowing Quilf's meta help Grey? At all. At this point I think he is trying to push a LittleGrey bandwagon either because he knows she is scum and would thus gain townie cred for "correctly" reading her. However, his answer as to how she is scummy is flimsy at best and is just a filler to get people off his back. He also indirectly supports zMuffin by saying he is active and will be able to address any suspicions as well as throws Jakesh unto the traintracks of a Jakesh/Little Grey scum team possibility later on in the game.

zMuffinMan:

... Damn. I'll do MuffinMan in another post. I have to go. Again.

I'm just going to say that Muffin's earlier posts sound like a scum trap.

[Oversoul]

NEVERMIND- He isn't a replacement.

I read the case and Oversoul just comes off as active lurking to me and then very opportunist with that case on neill. I mean if you ISO Oversoul he hasn't done much in this game until that case and to be fair I've seen scum just float under the radar.

I admit I've been very lurky, but I have been reading the thread. This is actually my most active thread (in terms of my own personal work) and Neil's read was actually my first attempt at an iso. Clearly I have some things to work on. I am doing Muffin's right now and I'll post it when I get done (with spoilers).

This game has actually taken me away from my other two. Then again, this is the only one that truly interests me.

[Oversoul]

zMuffinMan Read:

Spoiler: Muffin

My idea for claiming is this: basically just the Hider/HT/det-psych claiming and the hider/det-psych co-ordinating night actions. This narrows scum down to a pool of 9 players and also means PRs can avoid each other (with the exception of the vig-tracker). Lynch one. Hider hides behind another (who he/she announces before nightfall). det-psych and vig-tracker would check/kill whoever they want of the remaining. Scum will target the det-psych first prob, then assuming the hider dies we can go from there. Worst-case scenario is that we go into MyLo D2, but that's happened before and turned out well, so 'sall G. Best case scenario, PRs rock scum and we win, gg.

Scum really cannot counter-claim in this setup, so I don't think counter-claims will be an issue, but if they happen, it can be discussed if/when it happens.

Anyway, I figured I'd lay this idea out here as a basis for discussion, BUT I don't think it should actually happen until much later in the day.

Also a good discussion point is whether or not the vig-tracker should choose to be a vig or a tracker. I personally prefer vig. As long as the vig doesn't take out the det-psych N1 with the hider hiding behind her, I think it's a much better choice than tracker. Although it depends on the D1 lynch, really. If scum is lynched, Tracker might be a better option.

I get a pretty towny vibe from this post and early on in the thread zMuffinMan is already proposing a plan before Hoopla even unveils her master town-win plan. I can't really decipher this post much other than some backwards logic, but that doesn't really telling anything other than a null tell. Although, I am curious that you would have Hider openly hide behind someone. Hider is probably the most important role when it comes to Nightkilling. Having the Hider declare who they hide behind is like giving the scum a 2 for 1 shot.

Also, just because luck was in the town's favor last time doesn't mean it will be in our favor this time. Luck is the *only* thing you can't prepare for in life as it just happens. Dismissing the worst-case scenario like that seems rushed especially given the magnitude of the subject.

Spoiler:

Muffin

This line here is what I really don't like about swank's #48. It

sounds

to me like he thinks whatever plan Hoopla is going to propose will benefit scum in some way, but he's willing to blindly follow it for 'experimental' purposes.

This seems to be the first notion that some believe Hoopla is scum and has orchestrated a grand scheme that looks beneficial to the town, but in some obscure way it puts them all in grave danger. Perhaps in the scum QT (do they have one?) they have created their own plan beginning with this post?

I still don't see how following it for the sake of experimental purposes is a scum-tell either. Hoopla stated that this would benefit the town right from the get go. Why would scum blindly follow a plan that would lead to their demise?

Spoiler: more muffin

Yes, it would neutralise one of town's PRs (in my plan, the det-psych), but here's the thing.

Any

sort of mass-claim is going to 'neutralise' at least one of the PRs. My plan protects what I consider to be the more useful PRs (vig-tracker, HT) in exchange for the sacrifice of the det-psych (baiting the N1 kill) and most probably the hider at some point.

You brought up the issue of counter-claims, but it's a non-issue, because the vig-tracker cannot be counter-claimed (he won't be claiming) and the HT issue I already proposed a solution. But here's the thing: even if the vig-tracker did claim and was counter-claimed D1, the real vig-tracker could choose to be a vig and vig the liar, and we'd have all our other PRs alive tomorrow. There is really no counter-claim issue here. So yes, I'm being dismissive.

Nothing scummy about the first part and it actually presents itself as a town read. However, I am curious as to how the Hider Tracker is more beneficial than the hider itself. Should the Hider even be chosen as the nightkill, scum will most likely lose a night. Also, what point is there to the Hider Tracker if the Hider is publicly claiming who he is going to hide behind? It seems contradictory.

Spoiler: Muffin

I disagree that the hider should flip coin to decide who he hides behind.

I think, if we go ahead with your plan, hider should announce who he hides behind before nightfall. Yes, there's a possibility he hides behind scum and scum kill either HT or det-psych, and we're down 2 PRs, but it also means we'd have confirmed scum going into tomorrow on top of D1 lynch + vig shot + 2 town PRs left with the vig still in hiding. And if the hider doesn't die, then we have a confirmed town + hider + 2 PRs still left + vig shot + d1 lynch.

Also, this circumvents the issue I had with your plan (that all 3 scum could hide in the possible-vig pool and aim the vig tonight) because we'd be building a pool of confirmed townies outside of the possible-vig pool.

You fail to mention the possibility of straight up killing the Hider and his Towny shield which I feel is very scummy. Hider Tracker is absolutely useless in a mass claim scenario (apart from a counter claim in the beginning/being confirmed town) and you are still supporting their somehow inherently better value over the Hider.

Also, what if a confirmed scum hides in the Vig pool? This essentially forces the town to lynch someone they don't have a strong read on as well as make the Vig kill the already confirmed scum, negating both of the benefits for the split pool system.

Spoiler: MUFFIN!

EBWOP: disagree that he should flip a coin to decide whether he hides*

I think he should always hide and announce it (just in case scum do kill the HT first).

Also the HT could technically be counter-claimed, so the hider should only claim after the HT claims and has no been CCed.

Order would be like: everyone claims det-psych or not-det-psych, once that is over, everyone claims HT or not-HT, once that's over Hider claims.

I think this is rather self explanatory. You are still pushing the HT > Hider because of the counter claim issue (which you said was a non issue earlier). However, you do present the order (I believe) for claiming that we will use *after* Hoopla has posted. It seems like an opportunity post to try and pass yourself off as an aid to the plan, but other than that I don't know. Very nullish at this point in the game.

Spoiler: can you guess..

To clarify, if the Hider announces a town target - then the scum just need to target that player to net a townie/hider double kill. We don't get any confirmed innocents from that situation, as the Hider's target doesn't live.

This would be optimal for town.

Hider/townie dying while the vig takes a shot, the det-psych gets a check and the HT is a confirmed townie alive D2? I'll take that.

Absolute worst case scenario, we'd be down to 8 people with 3 scum still alive, 2 confirmed townies, 1 vig who could claim D2, and we'd be in a really, really good position to win the game.

Um what? How does a vig claiming with 3 townies alive still good? O_o I am not following that post.

True,n but I still don't think it's good to announce.

And if the scum kill the HT, then we get a spych/det result AND we know there's scum in that VT pool so we just kill it until it's dead.

Which is why I think if the Hider isn't going to announce it, he should just not hide altogether. Saves complications with losing 2 PRs N1, especially when a det-psych investigation isn't necessarily reliable.

That would just be reckless. Earlier you proposed a situation (MyLo D2) that was just as reliant on luck as choosing a candidate to hide behind, but you were fine with it.

Spoiler: M

I'm being really, really paranoid here, but this should explain why I'm not liking play based solely on odds.

To be honest, I'd much rather play the game as is and consider mass claiming again further down the line.

Even when the game is tipped in your favor? This post also shows that zMuffin is also willing to play the game as is, in a suboptimal fashion for the sake of not going against odds that are tipped in the town's favor. Surely he would know that given he already proposed an optimal situation and defended it in #83.

we have to gamble on some players being town throughout the game

You call it gambling, I call it reading.

Your plan doesn't eliminate gambling in any way, though. There's still a gamble.

If I'm scum, I wouldn't lock us into a suboptimal play.

You call it sub-optimal, but it really isn't. You're nullifying all the town PRs except for the vig (essentially they'd all just be confirmed townies) and pretty much ensuring you get to at least LyLo because you probably wouldn't be vigged or lynched over other candidates. You'd be removing most of the PR luck elements that could potentially destroy scum before D2.

I don't actually believe this is a scum-sided game when played straight. Although it really comes down to town PRs playing well, and in past hard-boiled games I've looked at, town have misplayed or scum has been a bit lucky (e.g. in one game, the last remaining scum took out the tracker on the night he tracked the last remaining scum).

All this said, I am a sucker and I do believe you're town, but I really don't like that you said that you must be town because you wouldn't suggest this if you were scum.

You state in your the post preceding this one that you are against the luck elements of the plan, yet you don't want to follow the plan because it removes the luck elements of the PRs? It seems contradictory and scummy. You try and discredit Hoopla's plan stating that it isn't suboptimal for scum when at first you even proposed your own plan for mass claiming. That also seems contradictory.

In addition, another reference to the possibility of the master creator (Hoopla) being scummy.

Spoiler: M

Actually...

What's your take on how easy the vig could get lynched / pointed out if all the scum hide in the no-claim pool?

This isn't really a concern.

We should go ahead with this, with a 4/5 split. No more questions or hints for scum. And no more discussion about what would or wouldn't be optimal for scum.

This post is completely dismissive and if my hunch is correct, then zMuffin seems to be coaching Neil. Also, zMuffin already said that a 3/6 would be a good idea and yet he chooses the option that he previously had qualms about?

He then goes on to dangle information over our heads saying he will tell us after massclaims are done. At this stage in the game, the plan is not in action and therefore cannot be undone. Why wait until we as a town have already progressed too far to correct the problem unless you know of a fool-proof solution?

Spoiler: M

Just 'coz.

Mostly too scummy to be scum. I don't see scum trying that hard to derail this claim plan; much more likely scum is in the people agreeing with everything without questioning anything. There's probably also scum hiding in the 'helpful' players, and you are the first that comes to mind in that regard. But I'm not scum hunting like I should be due to the circumstances in this game, and the only real reads I have right now are gut reads with little or no substance to back it up.

This post is a reference to Amrun's question whether or not he thinks Glowball is scum, which he replies with a curt 'no' needing to be asked why she isn't scummy. He then replies with the same sort of thought process that Neil used to be wary of Amrun. Coincidence? He turns the tables onto the people who legitimately hope and agree that this plan will be able to bring them a town victory, confirming what we already know. He also mentions Amrun as a possible scum for basically the same reason Neil is wary of Amrun. He also then provides no substance other than gut reads giving him a pass until someone should ask him again. He already has "gut" knowledge that Glowball isn't scum because she isn't a part of his scum group.

Spoiler: Muffin

@Amrun,

Yes... Because I am coaching her. She should stop doing it if she's town.

@neil,

Yeah, which is why I didn't want to go ahead with this until later in the day, but apparently people want to get this over and done with now. So I don't really mind, as long as there's at least day or two before it happens so I can make sure I'm not missing anything. I still have some things that I will discuss only after the mass-claim is over, and people will probably not like it at all.

I think this post is setup for a possible scenario later that would give him town cred by avoiding the lynch on a townie (Glowball). Also, he still holds that ever valuable information and seemingly gloats about it knowing that people will be mad he withheld the information.

Spoiler: Muffin

It's not that scum has an idea of how to beat it. It's that scum has no choice but to agree with it and hope they look town enough to avoid being lynched/NKed while trying to find whatever loopholes they can in the plan.

Which is why I don't want to go ahead with it so quickly, until all aspects have been evaluated to screw scum over as much as possible, and it's why I think scum is in the people blindly agreeing with everything, and maybe one of them is in the people being really 'helpful'.


PS: Oh, neil... You're scum again, aren't you? That sucks. Was hoping for a town game with you.

Again he hints at Amrun being scum because she is acting too helpful. I wouldn't be surprised if both zMuffin and Neil are on her bandwagon at some point later in the game based on their suspicions for her generosity.

He contradicts himself saying that he wants all the wrinkles ironed out, but he refuses to post his specific information until after the mass claims are over? o_o wat?

(already addressed the neil you're scum comment in Neil's read)

I want to see Amrun in the lynch pool.

He has a read on Amrun that must be pretty well established at this point. We still haven't even seen what Jakesh thinks of the plan at this point, but he preemptively seeks to form a wagon on her. All because she is being too helpful.

Furthermore, his next post after that

It's not a slip out of context either. It's not a slip altogether. It's a fairly self-explanatory sentence fragment.

Is what I think a defensive post for his scumbuddy. He doesn't give a reason other than that the sentence is explanatory and therefore should be obvious.

[Oversoul]

I'll get back to your points later, Neil. I'm tired right now.

[Oversoul]

Muffin, you are null-leaning scum.

Glowball, it is funny you say those are slips when they aren't. And I can't accuse Muffin and Neil of doing the same thing? I don't need answers to my questions because I'm not looking for the answers. They are rhetorical questions. I hope your other reads aren't as wrong as this one, Glow.

[Oversoul]

Does it matter who goes first between Hider and HT? Like would it really have a significance of difference if the Hider went before the HT, and the other way around?

I don't think so, but I am pretty sure we have it go as Det-Psych then Hider Tracker then the Hider. Or at least, I think that is set up we established.

[Oversoul]

Oversoul...I still think you are scum, because you are. However, I want to personally strangle Jakesh sooooooooooooooo there's my new vote-deal.

Oh Glowball. You are so silly. However, I guess we can agree on something. Jakesh is annoying. Just don't beat yourself up too much when you are wrong.

[Oversoul]

Waiting for Jake to respond, is it that important to respond? Couldn't we do.. you know... process of elimination? Have everyone claim and if Jake is left, and you only have 2 claimed PR's, then Jake must be the 3rd.

P-Edit, now that I think about it, the problem with this is that if there are 3 PR's, and Jake is one but hasn't claimed, scum can fake claim a PR and practically get away with it for the moment due to the lurker. Would it be a big deal if we moved on to Hider and HT and then all of a sudden get a counter claim of PR's by Jake? While it's not optimal, I don't see it being that difficult to be able to change in the moment depending on how the plan goes...

Why would we risk any sort of advantage for scum? We will wait in order to fulfill this plan in its entirety.

Still trying to rush things, Neil?

[Oversoul]

Pedit: Now I am seriously confused. O_o

[Oversoul]

Just gonna leave me hanging, Quil...? That's cool. I guess.

Anyway, I have already stated that Neil is scum and one of my reasons is that he has continually tried to hinder the plan which I feel like he just tried to do again.

Just wish Jakesh would either replace or ... do anything really.

[Oversoul]

Just gonna leave me hanging, Quil...? That's cool. I guess.

Anyway, I have already stated that Neil is scum and one of my reasons is that he has continually

tried to hinder the plan

which I feel like he just tried to do again.

Just wish Jakesh would either replace or ... do anything really.

Last time I checked, "trying to rush things" and "trying to hinder the plan" is contradictory... I'm not sure what you're accusing me of anymore.

If you rush the plan so that it goes out of the already set order or just completely ignore a PR for now, that is trying to hinder the plan. You are hindering the plan by rushing things.

Quilford, I agree on your points except for Amrun being scummy. I have her as leaning town and I don't really understand your #198 comment. Amrun is stating that Glowball wants to do a different plan in order to confirm that Hoopla is townie. Amrun states that this would lose the original efficiency of the plan and then indirectly states that Hoopla is town by saying Glowball knows that the plan is town driven because Hoopla isn't in Glowball's scum group.

Basically, Amrun thinks Glowball's suggestion is a ploy to lose the first night and day and then proceed with the plan after Hoopla has been lynched and confirmed town which Amrun says Glowball would know and scum get a free mislynch, plus they have successfully impeded the plan.

[Oversoul]

Need a more replacement, so we can get a jakesh replacement. A side note though, he flaked in another of my games (was lynched just recently for reasons unrelated to his flaking, and flipped VT). So it's not like a scum-lurking tactic. Not to say he isn't scum, but that his inactivity isn't a tell of any sort.

Agreed. He is about to be force replaced in another game that I am in so I don't think scum motives are behind his inactivity, just lack of interest.

[Oversoul]

@Mod

If he doesn't post anything of substance or say that he agrees with the plan can he be modkilled or forced replaced?

And Neil.

[Oversoul]

On Oversoul v. neil. I've been suspicious of neil from the beginning, and I don't think they're both on the same side. My gut doesn't like Oversoul, but I think that's just his smugness.

Why does no one like me... Makes me feel like I have been ass to you guys, in which case, I am sorry.

[Oversoul]

So, er, why are we waiting on pacman? Does he need to do something or can I claim vig now?

What the fuck is your problem?

[Oversoul]

Wow...

I wanted to do that now. :\

[Oversoul]

So can I say my claim?

[Oversoul]

I know, Glowball.

Claim: PR

This is why I was being so defensive and aloof.

[Oversoul]

I don't think Glowball realized that Andrew posted on page 20. right now we are waiting on Swank and Little Grey, once they claim we can get this show on the road.

[Oversoul]

Just when I thought this game was going to get interesting. Ugh...

*viciously prods Swank and Little Grey*

Also, Amrun, I am incredibly sorry to hear what happened to your father. I hope he heals and there is minimal damage. You and your family are in my prayers. Take as long as you need.

[Oversoul]

Can we just lynch Muff--- he's obviously scum, or just annoying town playing against his win condition.

Who would you rather lynch, anti-town or scum? Remember, they aren't always the same thing.

I'm not for policy lynches usually, but there's such a lack of content this game could anyone really make any cases? No pressure or alignment revelations, just waiting and talking about your favorite Disney movie...

I am going to assume you think my case on you is still tunneling given the above statement.

[Oversoul]

No, glowball.

Your job as unconfirmed town is to get lynched or vigged.

My job as confirmed town (pending the remaining two claims) is to sit back and laugh as you get lynched or vigged.

I don't particularly care what you think, and I'm just waiting for this claiming crap to be over and done with.

Why do you have to be so mean? :\ And nice implication that Glowball is scum.

[Oversoul]

We're separating it 3 to the vig pool and 6 to the lynch pool, right? Does the vig make the choice of which one to hide in? I was under the impression that the vig would hide in the lynch pool but if all the scum hide in there with him/er then it's still VERY easy for them to hit. The vig choosing which one to hide in ameliorates that issue a bit. Maybe this has already been brought up. I skimmed a lot of the semantics.

*sigh* lol

The vig will hide in the vig pool (6 person pool) for several reasons such as to reduce the amount of guesswork when choosing who to shoot at night, make it difficult how many mafia want to hide in each pool, and avoid the possibility of being lynched or to force a claim.

The vig will only shoot people from the vig pool. The town will only lynch people from the lynch pool.

The vig will still rely on scumhunting tactics, just as the town people will vote for someone to lynch based on scumhunting tactics. The plan just organizes the scumhunting into a more orderly fashion to reduce the amount of mislynches as well as vig-town kills.

[Oversoul]

So basically Oversoul is stalking me- I feel my life is in danger.

It's okay, I'm not scum and I'm not the vig.

[Oversoul]

So basically Oversoul is stalking me- I feel my life is in danger.

It's okay, I'm not scum and I'm not the vig.

If you were scum you'd tell me, right?!

Ya, and for the record, you switched into my game. So you're stalking me lol

[Oversoul]

Correct, Andrew.

[Oversoul]

MARATHON DAY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Happy 4th you guys!

See ya there. and you too, Glow.

[Oversoul]

Unless Swank has prod dodged. :/

[Oversoul]

reads

lol

lol

[Oversoul]

I lied. Simple as that, and I know what the scum will say about me "why would you lie if you are town?" Because. I didn't like this plan or outing all of our PRs.

Now, I propose that we don't lynch any of the PRs and we don't go massclaiming.We continue on as normal lynching and viggging, and the scum will eventually be outed as they attempt to knock off the other PRs.

I hope you all forgive me, and I know there will be backlash.

Wait..

So you are in the 3 Non Vig PR pool?

I kinda figured you were a PR from your paranoia.

[Oversoul]

So... Glowball, zMuffinMan, Silverbullet, and I are all PRs.

I put my suspicions on zMuffinMan. I am getting townie vibes from Glowball and Silverbullet really hasn't supplied anything of substance. zMuffinMan for reasons stated earlier (I posted those right?) is my most scummy pick.

[Oversoul]

ftr, I couldn't give two shits what you think of me, and a mass claim of PRs isn't happening today.

We proceed with the plan as it was (lynch/vig pool) and sort out the rest tomorrow.

I hope that wasn't directed at me? You're so aggressive. And "it's my meta" isn't a good cover to hide behind because that just implies you're a dick. Naturally.

If we proceed with the plan we either cut one out of the Vig pool or cut it out of the lynch pool. Both of which are undesirable because an either or reasoning is not something you want to pressure town into so early in the game and you give the vig a smaller pool to hide in. Although if I had to choose I would choose to cut the lynch pool as vig is more valuable than a townie in my opinion.

[Oversoul]

Then we see which exact PR has two claims. There will only be one.

We lynch the one we think is scummiest. If we are wrong, the vig shoots the other one overnight. Guaranteed scumkill.

dumb idea. If there's two hider claims, for example, all a mass claim would do is out all the PRs as well as possibly killing the real hider and then another PR dies at night.

You're also overlooking the fact that scum fake-claiming in this group is doing so because they're somewhat confident they won't be lynched after a mass-claim of PRs. Which means lynching the "scummiest" player is a stupid idea.

It is a far better idea to wait until D2 and there are a number of reasons for this. If you actually think about it, you'll understand.

Are you implying someone in particular?

[Oversoul]

No. Do you have a guilty conscience?

I thought so.

If we are going to lynch someone it is either going to be zMuffinMan or Silver. I trust Glowball's suspicions and she may have just helped us catch scum. Plus, she was very paranoid in the beginning, but I can see the judgement on that is scum behavior (I used it on Neil earlier _

[Oversoul]

but swan didnt claim>?

He is saying Silver claimed because he knew that Swank would not because Swank is also his partner and therefore would not have a power role. His plan was ruined when Glowball came out of the woodwork with her sneakiness (I am curious to know what Hoopla thinks of that action). Either way, I want to nominate Swank for the gallows. Pretty good detective work, Quilford.

[Oversoul]

I get a pretty good town read from Amrun :\

[Oversoul]

Your claim is least townie

Glowball's claim exists.
Does not compute.
>scum

Well. Let's see. Silver replaced grey who was on my scum reads with Amrun.

The weakest of the three but glowball has looked like town the whole time.

I'm inclined to believe silver is the scum out of the PR claims but Amrun is scum too. Bussing gambit is all too likely with the way town is raping this setup.

Error Error. Bold does not compute...

No, he is calling Amrun scum by saying that she shouldn't just ignore Glowball's wild claim. Unless you mean something else?

[Oversoul]

I would like to see Neil in the lynch pool if possible. Maybe Andrew.

[Oversoul]

I would like to see Neil in the lynch pool if possible.

Why? What would my lynch give, given the circumstance that I'm town to other people that are in this game?

Fine. -.-

[Oversoul]

Yeah, no. Andrew has been pretty scummy up to this point, though this weird self-voting thing is throwing me off. It could be a gambit.

He didn't vote himself?

He hasn't really contributed to anything, but that is his style of play. I am with him in another game and he is acting the same way. Unless he is scum in both game, it is probably the way he participates. I hate using meta, but Andrew... hasn't given much other than meta to analyze.

Also, are you really his sister?

VOTE: Andrew for not really doing anything this game. :\

With zMuffinMan's plan, wouldn't we be going behind Hoopla's back about the plan and essentially stopping the whole thing that we have wasted so much time preparing for?

[Oversoul]

2 of {neil, Amrun, Coventry} because the rest of the vig pool are town, as are hoopla, andrew and myself. I'm not even going to try to guess who's lying in the PR pool. It doesn't concern me. If I'm still alive when it matters, then I'll get to figuring it out.

It isn't me.

I am fine with a Neil or Amrun vig tonight. At first I felt Amrun was pretty town, but the way she has handled Andrew is not to my liking.

[Oversoul]

so why are they town?

'coz I said so.

And you wonder why people are beginning to dislike you...

[Oversoul]

I don't think zMuffinMan would be this arrogant as scum unless he had something he could prove later on. I still suspect Silverbullet and Neil and wish someone would vig them tonight.

However, we must not stray from the path that Hoopla set out for us. If zMuffinMan *is* scum then you are all playing into his hand. He is getting under your skin, he is getting you to move away from the well established 2 lynch pool. He is making you all make irrational decisions.

Also, Quilford, a no lynch would give scum the upper advantage to take a free shot at our PRs of course depending on who they would kill it would free up a lot of possibilities, but I don't want to risk a PR.

[Oversoul]

I don't think zMuffinMan would be this arrogant as scum unless he had something he could prove later on. I still suspect Silverbullet and Neil and wish someone would vig them tonight.

However, we must not stray from the path that Hoopla set out for us. If zMuffinMan *is* scum then you are all playing into his hand. He is getting under your skin, he is getting you to move away from the well established 2 lynch pool. He is making you all make irrational decisions.

Also, Quilford, a no lynch would give scum the upper advantage to take a free shot at our PRs of course depending on who they would kill it would free up a lot of possibilities, but I don't want to risk a PR.

Let's just say this Oversoul- you consult with Hoopla a lot, and so does Muffin so I can only take what you say so much. IF in fact Muffin is scum, I wouldn't be playing into his hand...I'D BE LYNCHING SCUM.

Scum don't want you to proceed with this plan as it is systematic destruction of their faction. If they got you to deviate from the plan that basically ensures their defeat, then they have a higher chance of winning as people can turn that around and WIFOM will be everywhere.

I trust Hoopla. People call her the design breaker, the numbers queen, etc because she is very keen on what can make or break a set up. I highly doubt that scum would come out in the open and state a set up like this. It seems like too much hassle unless she planned to make a set up as scum and coincidentally got a scum role this game.

[Oversoul]

Someone kill Andrew please so we can go to night. Town is tearing itself up and I am almost positive after people have died things will be easier.

[Oversoul]

People should stop being retarded, too. We don't have time for another wagon.

D1 lynch is andrew, simple as. Get over your townread on the slot and do what's right for the town. Lynch.

At this point the plan is fucked. I applaud zMuffinMan if he is the town because he basically destroyed all the planning we had Day 1. I had a vig read on Neil which is why I gave up so easily on not wanting him in the lynch pool. It was pretty obvious based on his nervousness about the plan and then refusal to volunteer combined with his other remarks towards zMuffinMan. Although, this does make Amrun's slot less town than before and chkflip is suspicious with this comment.

I definitely want Silverbullet to die some time because right now zMuffinMan is giving off town vibes.

Neil, why would you ever do that. You weren't at risk for a lynch.

[Oversoul]

Someone kill Andrew please so we can go to night. Town is tearing itself up and I am almost positive after people have died things will be easier.

Who called it?

*sigh*

[Oversoul]

The problem with lynching Andrew is that it gives us very little information and for exactly the reasons you outlined earlier, Oversoul, I am very uncertain he is a bad guy. From my first read I was almost sure Little Grey/Silver and Amrun were scum, with Neil close behind, because I didn't think he was reacting to pressure the same way he had in our last game with him (I know, he eventually did). Given how the day has developed now, though, I can't imagine us going forward in any useful fashion without dealing with the 800 pound gorilla that is zMuffin's strangely bullying and seemingly scummily opportunistic play.

Just lynching someone to clear the room is still preferable to no-lynch but the reason for the "easy lynches", Hoopla's plan, is now mangled beyond recognition and I believe strongly that you lynch from information and to get information. It is just not clear to me how lynching Andrew is from the first or would offer much of the later.

As always, if anyone can explain to me how I'm wrong I'll certainly reconsider.

I think the reason you are most likely scum, Coventry is based off your predecessor's play. Jakesh and Evilpacman weren't the towniest of players.

[Oversoul]

It just felt like Evilpacman really didn't want to read the plan and was intent on others doing the work for him once he replaced in.

Also, he restated a lot of things that I think was to try and appear towny without actually contributing.

As always, though Coventry, you make the slot look towny.

[Oversoul]

Who is your daddy. Called it.

[Oversoul]

How are we going to prove which PR is lying?

[Oversoul]

And if we are claiming I am claiming last for a few reasons.

[Oversoul]

Lol, oh dear.

Each PR claims - it doesn't matter what order. It's game over for scum. We lynch the matching claims back-to-back.

But I has a plan.

[Oversoul]

Glowball has been mia for some reason.

[Oversoul]

Hmm. That makes me feel honored to be in this game.

[Oversoul]

Either way, I'll claim last.

Also, once we nail it down to 2 people could the scum just out themselves? If we lynch the wrong person they will be kille by the big anyways and all they would be doing is prolonging the game needlessly and ruining the perfect win. :/

[Oversoul]

Meh, it's obvious Oversoul and zMuffin are town, so I'm just going to vote now.

VOTE: glowball

I had a good trap too. :/

VOTE: glowball

[Oversoul]

I hid behind Hoopla in order to calm Glowball's mind the next day.

I wanted to go last should the Fake PR claim to be Hider or Hider Tracker that way I could catch them in a lie. However, I suspected that they would lie and go for investigator and had this wifom argument thing set up to try and lure it out of them. But him claiming to investigate me last night pretty much solved that problem.

And lol at scum trying to shoot me last night. Cute.

Just wondering, but why me? O.o

UNVOTE:

VOTE: YoYo

[Oversoul]

Perfect victory get.

Hoopla, are you going to actually try to do your plan in the next game now that you have a basis for its results?