Open 317 Masons & Monks (Game Over) Finished: September 8

[Scott Brosius]

I tend not to read very thoroughly when I replace in, especially without a scum flip. So I'm skimming. Anything EXTREMELY important I should know immediately?

[Scott Brosius]

This game has been painful to skim and honestly, there isn't much substance. A lot of petty arguments and not much else. This game needs a flip more than anything right now.

Unvote
Vote: Guido

I agree with whoever said that claims in this game are generally fruitless especially D1.

[Scott Brosius]

Yeah, actually I didn't consider that any mason/monk claim should be cleared up at night as long as the scum team isn't completely dumb.

Unvote

[Scott Brosius]

Quickhammering? He's been at L-2 or L-1 for awhile now. Also lol that you think he is scum and aren't voting for him.

Vote: cjdrum

[Scott Brosius]

Attempting to look for relationships where there hasn't even been a flip yet is always baseless.

[Scott Brosius]

I would love a flip, but this early in the game with a mason or monk flip, it will undoubtedly take care of itself at night. Mafia don't want masons running around and Wolves don't want monks running around. Why lynch someone that is almost certainly (if the scum teams aren't completely dumb) dying tonight?

D3 or so and after it's fine to lynch claimed monks and masons. But today there is no need.

[Scott Brosius]

Well after a certain point they need to be lynched regardless of claim. Now we have flexibility. If we don't lynch Guido and he is still alive tomorrow, I will be confused and suspicious.

[Scott Brosius]

Please explain the case.

Also we have 5 days. It's not like we have 10 hours to deadline.

[Scott Brosius]

Dear lord you must be removed.

Unvote
Vote: DeityKabuto

[Scott Brosius]

Both

[Scott Brosius]

I'm not as active, sure. I'm still reading up. Right now, I second Guido's monk claim, for I am the other. That was probably pre-mature, but I don't want to lose him.

VOTE: YankCane for tunneling me, partially.

Why wouldn't you want to lose him? You have no idea of his alignment.

Agree with Vitamin that it pretty much confirms him as town.

[Scott Brosius]

Uhh... this is getting confusing. Hmm... I'll keep my vote for now.

NO YOU WILL UNVOTE BECAUSE I AM NEITHER WEREWOLF NOR MAFIA.

AND YOU TARGETING AN INNOCENT TOWNIE SUCH AS MYSELF MAKES ME FEEL THAT YOU'RE SCUM.

I ALREADY HAVE A LIST OF PEOPLE WHO ARE CLEARED AS TOWN, BUT THE LIST FOR SCUM ARE BIGGER.

Anyone who targets you is scum. That's logical thinking.

Also you have a list of cleared town? Please share.

My vote is cemented.

[Scott Brosius]

Masons and Monks

A 12-player open setup probably proposed by Fiasco (check this).

There are 2 Mafia Goons and 2 Werewolves. Arbitrarily two players who are not mafia are Masons who can talk at night but don't know each other's alignment. Similarly arbitrarily two players who are not werewolves are called Monks.

http://mafiascum.net/wiki/index.php?tit ... _and_Monks

[Scott Brosius]

WHY

[Scott Brosius]

@cjdrum

: Why are you lurking again now that the attacks against you have stopped?

This is a good point. My vote will return here.

Hopefully with 2 scum groups one of them will take care of DK.

unvote
vote: cjdrum

[Scott Brosius]

What. Please don't do that. We're going to end up having random no-lynch nights based on confusion. Either extend it or don't.

[Scott Brosius]

I don't want an extension. We need flips at this point more than anything.

[Scott Brosius]

The odds of getting the mafia day 1 are low anyway.

I haven't had a chance to see the "omg day 1 so hard" tell in a long time. Almost always scum.

Unvote
Vote: darkcoffeejazz

[Scott Brosius]

The odds of getting the mafia day 1 are low anyway.

I haven't had a chance to see the "omg day 1 so hard" tell in a long time. Almost always scum.

Unvote
Vote: darkcoffeejazz

What a moron.

Namecalling a solid defense.

[Scott Brosius]

Right, that makes it a bit more vital that we hit mafia today.

Particular scum group hunting is noted. Killing mafia is fine, but removing the wolves and lessening the NKs to 1 per night instead of 2 is also fine. Look for the scummiest player.

[Scott Brosius]

^ Oh so yeah, we better take our time today, because we don't want a mislynch occur, this is LyLo day for town.

Also it is not LYLO. I need to read over this mess of a game again.

[Scott Brosius]

Literally anyone who has any suspicion on you deserves a vote?

Again there is no point in lynching DK today. If he is alive tomorrow he must die.

[Scott Brosius]

Can both mafia be monks? Or does it have to be at least 1 town?

[Scott Brosius]

Didn't you claim Vitamin R's mason partner earlier? Are you purposely just trolling at this point?

Anyway my question was not based on you. It seems bizarre that the wolves would kill anyone but a monk. Although Blackberry's post mortem comment perhaps means there was some error? This game continues to hurt my head.

[Scott Brosius]

Alright. As I was saying, is it possible that the mafia can both be monks (as in, no town monks). This would explain the lack of monk killing last night. Although I do not see any scum reason for smallpeople to out himself like that.

[Scott Brosius]

Will werewolf masons flip as such or just simply "werewolf"

[Scott Brosius]

Also applies to Mafia Monks.

[Scott Brosius]

Well given that there is only one mason left....unless we have idiot wolves (or DK is wolf) they will kill DK for their own protection.

[Scott Brosius]

Scum tend to lurk in these 2v2vtown setups.

Vote: Tomie

[Scott Brosius]

Alright I'm an idiot. First page wasn't updated.

[Scott Brosius]

I do believe his claim, but I think he's Mafia . . .

But, in the interests of not quickhammering...
*

glare

*
... I'm not going to vote for him right now.

Also,

vote: Cirno

We have 3 scum left. Guido I'm not seeing as scum. Thor... Not really, but possible. I think Scott Brosius, smallpeoples and Cirno would probably be the three.

What changed from D1 to now?

Vote: cjdrum

[Scott Brosius]

"So, Top 3 suspects based solely on a reread of ScumBerry:
Guido Crescendo
smallpeoples343
DeityKabuto"

This is most likely coming from scum because I AM MASON LMAFO, U JUST SCUM SLIPPED.

This is faulty though.

GC and small claimed Monk. Therefore they cannot be wolves. So any relationship you attempted to find here is an illusion.

[Scott Brosius]

I would also be fine with a Chevre lynch.

[Scott Brosius]

If I get lynched, so be it I longer have to read this trainwreck of a game.

[Scott Brosius]

I no longer*

[Scott Brosius]

Nah that ain't me.

[Scott Brosius]

I'm not going to be upset if I get lynched. However that doesn't mean I'm not going to try to find scum.

cjdrum would be my first pick. Chevre would be my second.

It is weird that both Guido and small are still alive. Small had no reason to claim like that as scum however so it's more likely that Guido is scum.

[Scott Brosius]

So, Top 3 suspects based solely on a reread of ScumBerry:
Guido Crescendo
smallpeoples343
DeityKabuto

That is what I meant to quote in 828. This is completely wrong since GC and small CANNOT be wolves. You just completely made up these reads.

Unvote
Vote: Chevre

[Scott Brosius]

I'm here, but I don't really have much to say. I feel like this game especially with all the claims out is completely based off of flips and not scumhunting (not just this specific game, the setup in general).

Chevre needs to die. That would help with the replacement problem too =)

[Scott Brosius]

smallpeople please claim

[Scott Brosius]

err shion please claim.

[Scott Brosius]

Just checking =) would be an easy slip for scum (even though there really was no scum-motivation to out oneself as a monk) to not realize their predecessor claimed. Carry on.

[Scott Brosius]

Are you really confirming the Monks? That makes 0 sense.

How are they confirmed town?

[Scott Brosius]

Just checking =) would be an easy slip for scum (even though there really was no scum-motivation to out oneself as a monk) to not realize their predecessor claimed. Carry on.

Had you read my Chevre case when you made that post?

No I saw you replaced in and figured with a claim out there, better make sure it's the right one. I see your mention of it there.

As I've said, Shion is pretty much town with the way smallpeople claimed. There was no reason when Guido claimed monk that a Mafia Monk would put himself out there like there especially since Guido was not revealing his partner. So either they are both town or Guido is Mafia.

[Scott Brosius]

I'm still here, DK still not providing actual reasons for anything, Chevre should still be lynched.

[Scott Brosius]

Stfu you hypocrite, you are just as worse, you continue to post 1-2 line statements.

I actually provided a case on someone.

Your votes are basically based on which one of me or Thor has posted most recently in the thread.

How about an actual scum case on me? Or Thor? Or why Chevre is town?

[Scott Brosius]

And you continue to ignore all pleas for you to provide any sort of case on anybody.

[Scott Brosius]

So, Top 3 suspects based solely on a reread of ScumBerry:
Guido Crescendo
smallpeoples343
DeityKabuto

That is what I meant to quote in 828. This is completely wrong since GC and small CANNOT be wolves. You just completely made up these reads.

Unvote
Vote: Chevre

lol good catch.

Unvote: Scott Brosius
Vote: Chevre

@DK - actually Scott is at least second and possibly third with that catch.

@Everyone - yes, I'm voting along with one of my suspects for another one. You should all join this wagon too - it's incestuously good.

These posts are consecutive.

Does this like I'm "hopping on Thor's dick"? Or that I presented the main points of this case, that I guess you have forgotten, you AGREED with.

[Scott Brosius]

Are you completely insane? Town mason? Do you realize YOU are a mason? And that he is NOT your partner.

[Scott Brosius]

I KNOW THAT. You asked if he was a Town Mason 2 posts ago.

[Scott Brosius]

At this point whatever. I'm going to have a million games to play to cross-replace into my large theme anyway, and as with half this site, avoiding any game with DK in it from now on.

If you promise Chevre will not be alive at the end of D3, go ahead and lynch me.

[Scott Brosius]

I have and will never self-vote.

[Scott Brosius]

At this point whatever. I'm going to have a million games to play to cross-replace into my large theme anyway, and as with half this site, avoiding any game with DK in it from now on.

If you promise Chevre will not be alive at the end of D3, go ahead and lynch me.

Rofl? Avoiding games with me?

Your play is even sadder than that of mine so far.

You think you're good at Mafia now, huh?

Please continue to ignore all the questions and requests for any sort of case on anyone.

Your voting history is basically the last person to call you scummy. That's it.

[Scott Brosius]

@MOD: Please prod cjdrum and Shion.

@cjdrum,Shion,Descent

: Vote someone. Whoever you most think is scum. There is still time to start alternative wagons if you don't want to follow Thor.

Now, I want the day to end. So I am willing to change my vote. But first, I want these guys to commit their votes somewhere.

Also, just ignore DK. There is nothing to gain in arguing with him except more frustration.

Why don't you vote? Seems suspicious to want to essentially feel out which wagon will work by telling other people to vote.

[Scott Brosius]

Chevre obv for completely making up reads.

[Scott Brosius]

There's no reason for the living monks/masons to alive unless most of them are scum.

[Scott Brosius]

Parking votes in the middle of nowhere should not be a reason for clearing Yank/DK. If anything that's a scumtell for avoiding major wagons in an attempt to skate by. But leaning towards null.

Muffin as scum would have no reason to out himself earlier in the game as monk after Guido claimed. It puts a target on your back for the other scum team to kill you. It has to be Guido. Given that he has been floating in this game especially after the wagon disintegrated D1.

In terms of actual gameplay, cjdrum was next on my list after Chevre.

Not really sure why you are clearing andrew. Can you explain that?

Your analysis is fine, and replacing myself in for you leaves me with you cjdrum and andrew. Given my earlier scumread on cjdrum, that's where my vote is. Guido also needs to die though.

Vote: cjdrum

[Scott Brosius]

That's your entire case?

Guido and cjdrum have also been on both wagons.....

[Scott Brosius]

And if we had listened to you yesterday we would have ML Thor.

Don't get on a high horse here.

[Scott Brosius]

Actually, there's no reason both monks should have avoided both NKs from wolves that's idiotic.

Vote: Guido

[Scott Brosius]

I cannot wrap my head around this setup for the life of me. You are right though.

I am still confused why the monks and masons are remaining alive.

Who do you think is scum then?

unvote
Vote: cjdrum

[Scott Brosius]

And continue to ignore questions directed at you...

[Scott Brosius]

And continue to ignore questions directed at you...

Well sorry for not giving respect to my a fellow scum, but when I'm certain people are scum, there opinions matter less and their input. I hate discussing any further when I'm near that 100% sure mark that someone is scum.

To a "fellow scum"? Hahaha slip much?

Unvote
Vote: DK

[Scott Brosius]

Fellow = being sure?

Nice try.

[Scott Brosius]

Can you promise to leave the site forever when I flip town? That will be well worth my mislynch.

[Scott Brosius]

DK is parading around here like he is the town leader when he isn't even confirmed. This is starkly different than the Large Normal I played with him where he claimed JK on the first page and was obv town, but continued to derp through the game generally unhelpful. This playstyle does not match that here as a claimed PR. Link below.

http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=17531

I really don't remember much about Yank. There was something I think in the beginning of D2 that sensed of specific scumhunting that I pointed out. Other than that I'm pretty null on the slot.

andrew does have a point about mafia not wanting to kill the monks. I still don't think smalls (Zmuffin currently) had any reason to just claim the other Monk as scum. That's why Guido would be my guess as scum. Given that he popped in only to discredit my admittedly faulty logic and vanished again, I still am getting scum vibes from him.

[Scott Brosius]

guido got run up to L-1ish and claimed. we decided to let him go since generally non-idiot wolves would kill him that night.

Muffin claimed pretty much unprovoked a few pages after that if i remember right. Makes no sense for a mafia monk to put himself in the line of fire like that unprovoked.

DK was cryptic and weird the end of D1 and i think ended up actually claiming D2?

[Scott Brosius]

That is correct.

[Scott Brosius]

If we kill the other wolf, that leaves us in an equal situation. There will only be one NK (instead of 2, which is a wash no longer crosskills but only ONE NK), if either Guido or Muffin live the next night (or both) they are clearly 99.55555% scum. I don't understand the specific scumhunting here. If you think DK is scum, you should be voting him.

[Scott Brosius]

scott, just assume for a moment that neither Guido or I are scum. Tell me why scum would want to kill us, especially after what you just posted.

Yeah I goofed up the setup again. Scratch that.

1098 has some solid points against andrew.

Unvote

[Scott Brosius]

@cirno, or it might mean scott knows hes not....

scott do you mind enhancing what your saying instead of leaving it at just that

This is idiotic.

Even if I was scum I would have no way of clearing anyone from both groups. Clearly he's not going to put himself on his own list. Keep reaching though.

How does me being on wagons look bad? I don't understand that concept. It's not like I'm looking for the easiest lynch hopping around. GC was rung up to L-1, claimed Monk we decided that would clear itself up (which it has not). Deadline was fast approaching, I found usually a great scumtell in the not caring about D1 garbage which I have pointed out in other games and got on the wagon.

Day 2 I was pushing the Descent/Chevre case probably the most or = to Thor all day.

These are not opportunistic votes.

The VCA is interesting though. Cirno looks bad on the GC wagon assuming that it's not all town.

[Scott Brosius]

What's also interesting about your VCA is that Yank was on

none

of those wagons.

This is certainly more interesting/scummy than being on every wagon. Trying to blend in and not give opinions/votes is not indicative of town play.

>Cirno looks bad on the GC wagon
And why is that exactly?

Knowing myself to be town, it would be all town if you are town. That seems unlikely but is ultimately WIFOM.

1:1:2 needs the townie volunteer. Lynch scum they kill town. 1v1 One of the scum groups wins. We need crosskills at this point.

[Scott Brosius]

Cirno if you are town, then the wagon is entirely town. That seems unlikely.

I never suggested that, or at least I did not intend to. In a game that is 4/12 scum with 2 scum groups it seems HIGHLY unlikely that any collection of 6 players would all be town. Even just randomly taking 6 players puts that at about 8%. But opposing scumteams makes it even more likely that scum was somewhere on the wagon. It's something to consider later, given Cirno hasn't really pinged my scumdar otherwise. However, this points more towards Cirno being the final wolf, as we know GC is not a wolf (granted bussing is possible both being mafia)

I'm leaning toward GC being scum. I still feel that slot has also been floating through the game even since L-1. I replaced in as that was happening though, so I don't really recall the playstyle before that. I'm going to go back and look at that.

Yank being off every wagon was the only other interesting thing to me. That screams avoidance and an attempt to just cruise through.

[Scott Brosius]

I don't understand the concept of being on wagons, when I have explained all my votes. If I was senselessly vote hopping for the easiest lynch, that would be one thing. But I explained all my reasons for being on the wagons. GC was clearly the weakest reasoning for me but this game was going absolutely nowhere when I replaced in and a flip was going to be best. Especially with 2 scum groups killing, much more information can be divulged with 2 dead bodies the next day especially looking into potential crosskills. Explained further in post 1111

[Scott Brosius]

I never suggested that, or at least I did not intend to. In a game that is 4/12 scum with 2 scum groups it seems HIGHLY unlikely that any collection of 6 players would all be town. Even just randomly taking 6 players puts that at about 8%.

I've seen far too many people lynched on this basis. It's a really easy excuse for scum to jump on. For example, Cold War Mafia (which bvoigt played in) - Enigma was lynched pretty much purely on bandwagon analysis (he was part of an 8 person bandwagon on town that was entirely town, and supposedly the odds of that happening were extreeeeemely low). I'm always wary of people using this as an excuse for lynching someone because it's a cop out substitute for actually scum hunting.

Yank being off every wagon was the only other interesting thing to me. That screams avoidance and an attempt to just cruise through.

So what's your actual opinion on andrew then?

Do you think he's scum?

Why are you withholding your vote?

I don't understand the concept of being on wagons, when I have explained all my votes.

Most people explain their votes. Even "senseless vote hopping" is generally explained in one way or another.

----

Anyway, back to business.

VOTE: andrew

I was also in that game. Which is why I said since I have no other reason to think Cirno is scum, it's not currently worth pursuing. I'm not saying it's the basis of a case, but it's something to think about. Not sure why you are trying to make it seem like I want to lynch Cirno simply based on that.

My votes have had legitimate reasons.

I really have nothing to say about that slot as nothing sticks out. No opinions nothing besides that one comment about specifically hitting a scumgroup. That's a giant concern and coupled with the avoidance of every single wagon its quite scummy. Actually going through his ISO he has made about 3 votes total. For a split second on DK and mostly on small/muffin slot before andrew replaced in. I'm fine hammering.

Vote: andrew

[Scott Brosius]

My vote will undoubtedly be on bvoigt (mostly due to cjdrum) or GC.

Any reads from either monk from your QT? Lack of participation, anything of interest?

[Scott Brosius]

I'm not voting until everyone pops in, but I'm leaning heavily towards GC. Few reasons.

I replaced in as the initial wagon on him was growing, Cirno might be the only one who can accurately attest to this, but it is my feeling that since the wagon disassembled, GC has been coasting. Again, maybe Cirno being the only person in this game who replaced before I did has a better idea in terms of content but this game is 46 pages. He had 29 posts Day 1. He has had 40 posts total. That means since D1 and the wagon fell apart on him....he has only 11 posts in 2 full days and 16 pages. Is this the same playstyle that we saw D1? This is very indicative of being close to a lynch then avoiding attention for the rest of the game. Standard scum behavior.

Second is that muffin is most likely town. That leaves 2 scum in voigt Cirno GC. Given the pisswar that happened pretty much the entirety that cjdrum was in the game between cjdrum and Cirno, that is definitely not scum/scum (especially now that only 1 scum group is left). Since only one of them is scum, GC has to be scum.

Cue GC coveniently appearing in thread 2 hours after this post.

[Scott Brosius]

My vote will probably be on Scott, but I'll try to do more thorough analysis as soon as I can.

Is this only case here that I've been on wagons? Why choose me over GC if that is true (given that he has also been on every wagon besides his own)

[Scott Brosius]

cjdrum and Cirno were having one of those arguments for most of D1-D2 if I remember right. One of those arguments that serves limited purpose and basically the rest of the town ignored as they tunneled on each other. Either an impressive acting job by both, or extremely more likely that it is not scum/scum.

Anyway I'm confident in my vote. The complete coasting since being at L-1 on D1, the significant drop in posting and content since that point completely reeks of scum trying to avoid suspicion for a second time. Also the complete buddying of obvtown Thor in 803 is scum behavior. Plus the process of elimination scenario I posted earlier.

Vote: GC