Open 304 - Hard Boiled, Game Over. Was DY's Dystopia saved?

[smashbro_of_the_SSS]

hey guys, looks like this'll be a fun game, I know a good number of you. now onto serious business.

vote: RedCoyote

for being a little too serious about chesskid's claim/not claim. I read chesskid's claim as not vig or whatever it was as joking, not quite sure if its worthy of a lynch. also, you're talking in your post a couple above mine in the sense that he is a townie who made a stupid move, and then voting him. do you see it as anti-town (but made by a townie) or scummy?

[smashbro_of_the_SSS]

Does anyone else other than CK, Newman and I find Deity's line of questioning and desire for strong evidence before he lays down a single read scummy? Then come to the Sharks, homie.

Suspicious of Diety, but not convinced of anything on him yet. I don't mind him wanting strong evidence, but I would like a read right away to give us an idea of where he is at. I see where you're coming from Demon, about him taking a backseat while other people do the work, but I want to see how the rest of the day plays out before I definitely call him scum.

VOTE: DeityKabuto

He needs to explain his chess read and if it's an ongoing game, he needs to come up with something better.

Um. I said my reason for chesskid, it wasn't really a serious vote. Right now, I am building up a list of suspects who I find scummy by their words/actions.

alright, deity, right now you have your vote on chess, if i'm not mistaken. if you think he is scum, why? if not, why leave your vote there?



also, not quite convinced on nameloc right now, have someone else i want to build a case on but dont have time now (i might not post tomorrow, but thursday I'll be on), and kinda interested in the Demon case, would really like to see reasons from you Surye. for now, i'm happy with my vote on red

[smashbro_of_the_SSS]

SSSS, are you going to actually stick around this game? Don't replace out.

missed this earlier, so :p. I do plan on sticking around. this is the only game i got right now (aside from modding one soon) so you're stuck with me :p


Ok, so, the other suspect I mentioned: Amrun. Looking back, I'm getting a scum vibe on him mostly from his lurkerish style, posting short one liners and not really putting that much explanation into his posts. rvs, votes nameloc, comments on the dog pics, changes vote on nameloc so that it counts, then corrects it again later. You did explain your vote in one line, but I'm definitely not a fan of you only focusing on him right now. looks like severe tunneling to me, and also a way for scum to sit back and wait until others say their opinions, then join up with the side with the most supporters. that way, you don't have to contradict yourself, or commit to anything yet.

so amrun, commit. aside from nameloc, who are your suspects?

*** on a side note, scottybro and don_j are also like this in that they vote nameloc, maybe answer a question asked of them, and then disappear. I don't think all three are scum (if they are we have a really lazy scum team) but please all of you get involved. for you two, same question I had for amrun.



for now, I'm going to

unvote: RedCoyote

cause I disagree with him on his playstyle, but it might just be that I disagree with the playstyle of another townie. So for now, I got my eye on you.

@Diety: we're no page 6 now. chess has gotten votes on him and has reacted. how do you read into this? is he leaning scummy or townie for you right now? Also, is your vote for nameloc only based on gut and you seeing him as maneuvering scum?


PEDIT: agree, I'd like to see reasons for Surye.

[smashbro_of_the_SSS]

Did I not tell this game I was traveling and would be sparse?

(If I didn't, I meant to, which shows how attentive I've been.)

As an answer to your question about suspects, my most concrete read as far as scum goes is nameloc.

I didn't like nameloc's attack on chesskid, which I did comment on even if I didn't say nameloc's name. And then I didn't like the whole softclaiming business... I didn't like it A LOT. I don't see anyone able to explain how that could have come from town. (Maybe DH wants to take a gander?)

I have also expressed suspicion on Deity Kabuto.

At this point, everyone else is varying degrees of null to town. I have some thoughts on some null reads, but I think observing before expressing will be more fruitful there.

Succintness is not anti-town, sss. I generally post a lot of one-liners until I have a substantial case to post. I also got "called out" on short posts in CryMeARiver's recent Open, Follow the Cop ... Or Not (see link in wiki). I was town.

Rest assured that within the next several days when I am done travelling, you will see something more subtantial.

idr if you said that, if you did, i missed it. thanks for the reads, and i know that it is not necessarily anti-town, but if people are giving little info, it can be. I want to make sure that none of the scum can sit back and lurk for most of the game. Also, for the record, I'm liking your posts right now.


not gonna vote for anyone until we get an updated vote count.

[smashbro_of_the_SSS]

alrighty, sorry, didn't expect to be very busy this weekend, but i was. anyway, good few pages read.

Right now I'd like a DK wagon best, but toffee is a good #2 for me at the moment. I would wanna see more of toffee before her lynch though, so waiting on toffee's answers right now, since i'm not as convinced of toffee scum as DK scum. DK done little all game, aside from vote a few people, and say "I'll explain later" or "I'm just getting a vibe from these people". I feel like keeping toffee alive longer will give us some more info on people (based on toffee's votes, stances, etc.) as opposed to DK.


and chess. you act as if the day is already over (post 191) when the wagon starts on toffee, without voting toffee. Now you're upset that the wagon swung back to DK. all without joining either case. you're more focused on night actions than trying to lynch someone. how come? the claim isn't the main point against DK (at least for me), I've had a scummy feeling about DK most of the game.

also, i'm gonna go through and make up an unofficial vote count. will post again in a minute.

[smashbro_of_the_SSS]

ummm.... I think that was a DK lynch. would be really awesome if the mod came in here right about now to verify. by my count:

toffee:

ScottBrocius

Surye:

chesskid3

nameloc1986:

Surye

DietyKabuto:

nameloc1986, HellloooNewman, toffee, RedCoyote, don_johnson, DemonHybrid, Amrun

HellloooNewman:

DietyKabuto

not voting:

smashbro_of_the_SSS

[smashbro_of_the_SSS]

Yeah, I'm going to go ahead and guess hider was being one of the two townies who died, since I'm not claiming, and I think only toffee is left.

as of now, I'm not convinced of Amrun-scum. to me, the case looks like it's just that Amrun voted for a lot of people. not realizing there was a hammer could just as easily have come from a townie who wasn't paying attention. The only thing else I see about Amrun is the asking about the hider tracker coming out today, but that's a reasonable statement, since the HT is now pretty much just a name claim. An Amrun-scum might say that to try and out the power unnecessarily, but I just don't see that.

... scratch that paragraph I just wrote. I'm going back through the game, and some posts are sticking out to me.

Okay, I'm willing to lynch DK for that.

Unvote; Vote: Deity Kabuto

We need more mod in this thread.

P-edit: who is scum on it, chesskid? I disagree.

obviously you're ok with the lynch. ok, that's fine, but just remember, in this ^^^ post, you're saying you are ready to lynch DK, meaning you're ready for the day to be over. but when we realized that it was a lynch, you post this post VVV

Guys, if that was the hammer, I apologize.

I really did not intend to end the day.

Hence why I requested more votecounts at least once or twice.

I should have done one myself before placing a vote.

wishy-washy much? you say you're ready to lynch, then once people start to say they're suspicious of you for it, you try to appease them.

I thought there were more votes still on toffee at the time.

I honestly don't care if I hammered DK, who is probscum.

But I do think there was more meat on the bone in this game day and I am annoyed that I may have hammered on accident.

oh, hey next post. would ya look at this? now, you're saying you're glad you lynched DK (as opposed to, say, not intending to end the day and seeming to regret the hammer with an apology). something else to note, you said you thought there were more votes on toffee at the time. But if you preferred the toffee lynch, why not push that? From this post, it sounds like you thought the toffee wagon had a decent number of people on it (about equal to the DK wagon I'm guessing). But toDay you said you went to vote DK because you felt like more people preferred the DK lynch. But thinking more people supported a DK lynch doesn't fit with thinking there was a sizeable toffee wagon. Why move from toffee to DK if you thought there were a decent number of people on the toffee wagon.

I read that as saying (if toffee is scum) "i want to bus my partner, but now that a townie is near lynch, I'll go vote him" or (if toffee is town) "the toffee wagon, supposed to be my top read, isn't going anywhere, but DK is near lynch, let's vote him"

vote: amrun

that hammer was scummy, and I don't like your explanations at all. and the chesskid kill fits, since he would have undoubtably been on the case of people who were at the end of the wagon, not to mention that you could frame Surye as possible scum who would benefit from chess' death


aside from that, I'm anxiously awaiting toffee's stance on what happened at night, and the wagons toDay. also, scott and dj, i really want to start seeing more from you. I'm thinking one of you is the last scum scum slot, and neither of you is looking particularly townie to me right now. step it up. post more. do move than vote.

[smashbro_of_the_SSS]

didn't see toffee's post in a preview for some reason. still suspicious of her, i got my eye on you, but i'm looking forward to seeing amrun and toffee interact today.

[smashbro_of_the_SSS]

ugh. honestly, I'm not sure I want to believe amrun completely, really thought we got scum there. but right now amrun is confirmed town of course. unless toffee counter claims. i'll

unvote

for now, don't really have time to go over this game right now. i wanna look at the rc case again next

[smashbro_of_the_SSS]

btdubs, sorry for not posting lately, been busy the last couple days.

I still think you[don] make sense as scum.

I'm okay with an rc lynch today even though he's likely town because it will tell us several things and bring us closer to finding scum.

Toffee lynch = best

really amrun? how are you ok with lynching town right now? With 8 people left, a town lynch brings us to 3 scum 4 town. that means you (still assuming you're the vig) have to hit right to keep it at lylo, and if not, we're screwed.

I can see the case on RC. It's quite good, actually.

Change of heart from 2 days ago?

this is a really good point. if you we're our vig right now I'd see you as oh so scummy. either way, doesn't matter anymore, you're either going to get killed by mafia as our vig, or the real vig can take care of you tonight (the only chance is toffee, or that the vig lied so that they wouldn't die) either way, I'll just have to move on from this.

@mod, scott unvoted amrun a while ago, but your vc still has his vote on amrun

Yes, Scott unvoted Amrun in his ISO #10, but he then re-voted her in his ISO #12. To my knowledge, his vote hasn't changed since. ~DY

as for don, I'm not convinced of your defense. Even if scum could have gotten a lynch on Amrun to win, it would look incredibly anti-town if you didn't bail off that wagon right away. scott had already unvoted, so you would have needed your two scum buddies to be right online at the same time in order to get that lynch through (i'm not scum, and right now I'm seeing rc as town). which is a pretty long shot there, so why not make the effort to look townie?

the vote hopping I have a problem with is your day 1.

i like the rc vote. but nameloc should go first.

toffee: not a whole lot of substance or "case" behind my suspicion of nameloc, but i'll try to flesh it out later. he just reads like maneuvering scum. rc is really making soft votes as if he's keeping a way to avoid accountablity.

in your first vote/wagon, you openly admit you don't have much of a case on nameloc. yes, reading him like maneuvering scum counts for something, but not enough on it's own. my problem here is you don't stick around to try and make a case on nameloc by pressuring him, but instead...

Sorry. Out of town for a few days. Who are we lynching?

you wait for a few days and then come back with this scummy post. You don't allude to the nameloc wagon... at all. ever. again. no reason that you think he's town, or reason you still thought he was scum. Just "who's everyone voting for?" ***I'm sorry, i was wrong. you did mention nameloc again. when on Day2 you listed him as one of your suspects for scum. again. now reason at all.***

vote: deitykabuto

for really trying to avoid that toffee wagon. do you really think the scum team is newman, amrun, RC? i could get with RC being scum, but not the other two.

lol, here is your new vote, after the post above. you jump on the oh so popular dietyk wagon. well played, you got a mislynch for your scumteam.

8 players. 3 scum. i'll go toffee, nameloc, newman. maybe coyote instead of newman.

this is your next post, your first of day 2 (way to let the end of the day slip on by don). read this post of yours, and the one above this. "do you really think the scumteam is

newman, amrun

, RC? i could get with RC being scum, but not the other two." onto your next post. "i'll go with toffee, nameloc,

newman

"

..."I could get with RC being scum, but not the other two." (including newman) ... "i'll go...newman" ... what? first he is not scum, then he is?

Damnit brosius. Why so stubborn?

unvote vote amrun

We can do it your way. But I reserve the right to say I told you so.

but at least you stuck by your statement about amrun not being scum. especially holding your position when there was a large wagon on her.


... oh. but at least you still have the right to say I told you so.

vote: don_johnson

you're suspects have been spotty throughout this whole game, and conveniently those who have large wagons on them. I don't like it.


I have more to say bout other people, but i really should have left my house 5 minutes ago, so gtg, more tonight hopefully.

[smashbro_of_the_SSS]

that would be nice if what you were saying was the truth, smash. check the thread. brosius revoted amrun. did not unvote. i left the wagon at L-1.

scott not unvoting is true, that point is my bad. I went back through the thread, cause it did look weird that he still was voting her, and I thought I saw an unvote. point still stands that it was the only townish thing to do, unvoting, especially if your scumbuddies weren't on.

you've been voting the same exact suspects.

yes. but I've agreed with cases and added to them. you only vote. End of Day 1 you say you wouldn't believe Amrun is scum. Amrun is not on you list of four choices in your first post of Day 2. Then you vote Amrun. How is that justified?

defense from what? noones made a solid accusation. scott voted me for being amruns partner, rc still hasn't stated "why" he thinks i am scum, only that i "am the slickest", whatever that means. amrun voted for my "vote hopping", where again, the places i hopped strongly suggest that i am town as opposed to scum. she still seems to have me pegged on the scum end, but whatever.

the places you've put your vote is the popular wagons. doesn't mean you're town.

scott never left the wagon. you are the player who did just what you are accusing me of. you jumped off the wagon at L-2. waayyyy scummier than leaving the wagon at L-1. if amrun is vig and i am scum, i passed a chance at a win. if you read, you will see that my posts revolve around the posts brosius was making at the time. i unvoted right after he conceded my point. i didn't lurk, didn't leave it hanging for a few days. i unvoted because i had an uncounterclaimed vig at L-1. hours later, you unvote.

I wasn't able to unvote because I didn't look at this game. in my first post I unvoted also. I'll give you that it's not as strong a point because I was wrong about scott, but it was the only townish thing to do in that situation.

bolded is me being honest. not really a scum trait. italicized is just bullshit. you've voted players for less and you know it.

I'm sorry, but I'm not just accepting your words as honest. In other games, maybe. But I've been changing that as I've played. If I do vote someone on little info, I ask them questions to get a better read.

had gut on nameloc. coming back and asking what the general consensus is? how is that scummy? have you ever achieved a lynch in the game of mafia without appealing to the general consensus? can you lynch someone without a majority? the question also serves as a blanket inquiry as to who everyone is voting and why. reversed the read on nameloc due to mufins play. that is documented in thread.

I would be ok with that quote if you actually followed up on it. all you did was vote DK right after. You did not comment on any of the wagons that have happened, aside from one line to justify your DK vote. In mafia, yes, you need to get a majority on your side for a lynch to go through. I know that. But you shouldn't just agree with everyone without putting forth much effort to justify yourself. That's scummy.

Yes, you did talk about muffin. But on Day 2. On day 1, you should have come back and at least mentioned you still found nameloc scummy. but you didn't. Why not mention nameloc anymore if you still thought he was scummy? To me, it looked like you just gave up the nameloc wagon cause it fizzled out and joined DK cause it was strong.

unpopular wagons don't result in lynches. town has as much, if not more incentive to lynch someone. mafia have an nk which they can discuss as a team. only vig can nk for town, and they have to make the decision alone and with much less information. lynching is towns greatest power in the fight against scum. where were you at the end of the day? who were you voting?

No one. I had talked to RC, saw him as town. I was going to join up with the DK wagon when I went to check out the vote count. and what do ya know? It was alraedy a lynch.

and? its not okay to have suspects? is it not okay for your suspect list to change? are you reading my posts in iso? or are you putting them in context with other things going on in thread at the time?

you give little to no reasons for your change of suspects. I understand changing suspects, but you need to do more than voting, or it looks like you're just voting to vote with everyone else.

yup. mafia is a dynamic game. focusing on one suspect above all others is termed "tunneling". do your reads never change throughout the thread?

yeah, they do. but I say when they do, and why. you drop suspects without reason until much later.

as scum, if amrun is vig, i had the win. if amrun is vig, then my read on her was correct. also, if you read the above post it is entirely consistent with my explanation of the vote to others who have inquired.

yeah, if you were scum (which I believe you are) you had the win. which means you would want to vote amrun, even though you act as though you thought amrun was town. which is scummy, voting someone you have a town read on.

you could have at least mentioned who else you had things to say about. but oh well. by not identifying your reads, you can always lurk the day and use the old "well i didn't get a chance," excuse.

sorry, but I was late picking up my brother, so I needed to go. I planned on coming back. hi.

[smashbro_of_the_SSS]

alright, so, in other news. scott. why have you not unvoted yet?

also, what exactly is the case on toffee? I've been throwing toffee in as my number 2 to hopefully add some pressure, but I feel like i can say this now cause she's at L-1 anyway. I agree that toffee has been incredibly anti-town, but aside from that feeling, I don't remember the exact points of the case. can someone outline it for me?

only other thing I was gonna say was that RC looked townish to me from his repsonses, so I'm not on board with that.

[smashbro_of_the_SSS]

ugh. i said i liked the wagon. I wanted to see how toffee was reacting to it, and then decide if she was scum or not, because my read isn't definite yet.

I WAS WAITING FOR A CONCISE SET OF POINTS OF WHY TOFFEE WAS SCUMMY. I SAID THAT WHILE I THOUGHT TOFFEE WAS ANTI-TOWN, I WASN'T SURE IF SHE WAS ACTUALLY SCUM OR JUST AN INACTIVE TOWNIE.

I'm not hammering a wagon until I'm sure of it. Sorry for not doing what all of you wanted, but I wasn't ready for a lynch.

[smashbro_of_the_SSS]

don't really have time now, but I gotta look over the game again, I still thought Amrun would turn out to be lying scum, so I'm not really confident on any of my reads. I still have a town read on RC, but I don't see Muffin as scum either. and Scott is confirmed town. So yeah, I need to read this over. actual content tomorrow

[smashbro_of_the_SSS]

oh. well, at least now i dont have to worry about coming up with some crap defense. ah well, it was fun at least. I actually did end up liking this game.

lesson learned: bus like crazy. I planned on it, since last game, that's what won the game for the wolves and I chose wrong cause of bussing. next time i guess.

About the case on don... it was the first thing I saw i could do, and realized it was complete crap. don-scum would have stayed on amrun for a quicklynch? i did it.

“But…I’m not scumbuddies with toffee and Newman! They’re so good at crime and I would suck so badly at it!”

would have pretty much been my defense, lol. I really did end up being scummiest out of everyone left.

@DarthYoshi --- thanks for coming and taking over modding, you were good.

Also, unrelatedly, I thought town was boned going into D2. Watching that turnaround was astonishing.

yeah, agree with this (though i would have liked scum to win :p)

amrun made a great shot for us, and our three choices for the night kill were scott, amrun, and chess. amrun for being obv town (which would have been the best choice) scott for playing off meta and probably being a power role (... he was) and chess for possibly being a power and also obv town. I decided on chess because I thought that if I killed scott, don would know that i'm one of the few (maybe only?) people who know scott well enough to choose that kill. and i didn't want anything tied to me, since i was looking townie at that point.

but yeah, my mindset starting day 2 was "we got this." ending day 2? we're f'ed.


even though we lost this time, it probably is scum sided, especially if the person is a vig. hider has about a 50/50 chance of dying, maybe a little less. it really depends on how the vig shoots.

[smashbro_of_the_SSS]

i'm good with showing the QT, i'll wait for the other two though.

and yeah, if amrun hadn't been vig, and scott wasn't hider tracker, we would have had a chance at lynching either of them, which sucks. that's why i really hoped someone would come online and quickhammer amrun, when I realized the math worked out. and after town was attacking each other back and forth on day 1... ugh, so close to getting a win here.

but yeah, well played everyone, fun game

[smashbro_of_the_SSS]

oh, and reading over the dead thread, once amrun claimed vig, we were screwed. even if we counterclaimed, the town thing to do would leave both alive and let them shoot each other at night. I was going to claim vig until i realized that and so did someone from the town, so i figured i wouldn't out myself like that.

[smashbro_of_the_SSS]

oh god. reading over dead thread. horrible choice for nk for scum. wish we kept you chess, sorry! lol