Open 276- Friends and Enemies Mafia (OVER)

[Dafish]

I don't like this wagon... not yet.

VOTE: flinter for practicing his bullshit in his first post.

Nacho, how many games have you played with Hoopla? Do you want this lynch to go through, or are you trying to gauge reactions?

Fate, are you going to kiss Nacho's ass all game? Who is on this "list" of people you want to respond to Nacho's post?

Park, are you participating in the policy lynch because you believe in the policy, or because you believe in Nacho?

[Dafish]

Fate, how exactly does this guarantee Hoopla as non-mason? I see more than 2 people not voting Hoopla.

[Dafish]

Park, is "asking for it" a sufficient reason for a vote? Or is there more to the vote then that?

Abelcain, why do you say "little content"? Do you find RVS content to be unusable in your reads?

Totally agree with flinter's analysis. Was going to point out that exact thing but I wanted to give Abelcain time to incriminate himself more thoroughly.

[Dafish]

Unvote

VOTE: Abelcain

[Dafish]

Yo Dafish. What do you think of Fate? You ever played with him before?

Never played with him before. Normally, the intense emotion that is signified by capslawking alot makes me read town, but not on Fate, he seems to do it too often. Initially, I was put off by his incessant latching-on to Nacho, but his willingness to be abrasive and unfriendly with DDD made me rethink that. I also like how he always seems to be going somewhere with his actions... where he is going I'm not sure yet, but for now I'm hopeful. I'll be watching though.

This Nacho/Hoopla argument is really, really dumb.

Dumb in the sense that the argument is useless or dumb in that you can't get any reads from it? Does this mean you want them to stop arguing? Or is there a clear answer to the argument that you wish to share?

[Dafish]

@Abel - With regard to what I agree with in flinter's analysis, it was your point-counterpoint structure plus excuses/qualifiers that made that post stand out as scummy to me.

Anyway, this whole Hoopla wagon gained a whole lot of speed really fast, and I'm not sure I like how it looks. I agree with Fate that Hoopla should have defended herself earlier than she did, but I'm not complaining now that there was a decent post on her part. I'm going to have to give this topic another read-over tomorrow, when I'm not so tired, but it looks like there was surprisingly little content for fifty posts (or maybe I'm spoiled by the newbie games I played).

Boiled down:

"Whoa, X is going on, but I'm not going to give an opinion. Player A said something valid about Player B, but I'm willing to let it slide for now. I'll have to take another crack at this later."

That just isn't sitting right with me.

[Dafish]

Fate, would you mind elaborating on your stance on Andrius? While you're at it, go ahead and elaborate on your stance on me and Nobody Special as well (though of those 3, Andrius is the one I'd like to see you talk about the most)

Please try to use quotations and/or playstyle analysis in your answer.

[Dafish]

I know for a fact that you didn't nail the entire scum team. Please stop fucking around and answer the question, posting in all caps is not a suitable substitute.

[Dafish]

Andrius, if you believe Nobody Special is scum, why is your vote on Hoopla?

Fate, congratulations, you've addressed 2 of the 3... only 1 more to go!

[Dafish]

Actually, you didn't really address the causes of your scumread on me, so you should probably do that as well. Do I have to hold your hand through this whole process?

[Dafish]

VOTE: Nobody Special

6 pages, no vote, no cases on anyone, a bunch of filler content.

[Dafish]

Fate, I think you misunderstand. I'm not being condescending, I am just getting irritated, which I think is the ultimate goal of your playstyle, no?

Could you

please

answer the questions I have posed you?

On a related note, have you played any Newbie games? Could you link me two (preferably of different alignments) recent ones?

[Dafish]

I mean, I don't think there is any rule, but I wanted to see your meta unfold in a regular setup, rather than the more elaborate ones.

[Dafish]

I meant recent assuming that people continued to play newbie games later in their mafia career. In addition, I wanted recent because I want to see your current playstyle, and not an outdated one.

Are you unintentionally provocative or are you actively aggressive?

[Dafish]

Also, is there a reason you still aren't answering my questions?

[Dafish]

/done wasting my time with brick walls.

Are there even any possible pro-town motivations to not answering the questions I've brought up? I am asking you to provide support for your scum reads, is this seriously too hard?

[Dafish]

Here's a basic thing about mafia you may not have thought of:

Lynches are our destination. The votes are the fuel that get us to that destination.

Reasoning? Explanations? They are the type of fuel, the specific details.

Is he using unleaded scum fuel to get to the lynch? Bonafide Grade-A town fuel?

I have no town motivation to describe my type of fuel since I am already heading in the right direction toward a scum lynch.

There is also little reason for me to explain myself, since the only reason one would need to do that is if they needed to be viewed as town.

This has a serious flaw. Yes, lynches are our destination. However, you cannot expect an entire town to realize the scumminess of a particular player through osmosis. In order to get support for a lynch, it must have a valid basis and an explanation that others can follow. I, and I assume others as well, have a hard time supporting a case with my vote if that case has not been laid out beyond "Player X is scum".

I don't need to be viewed as town for reasons that should be apparent without explanation.

This gives more room for OTHER people to explain their motivations and fuel choices, as you can see ABR did in 139. This way, you get more reads on more people that we actually need to get reads on.

Since I started this trip toward City of Andrius, you can judge my actions by the appearance of the city when we get there.

Was this the best place to go? Why did Fate take us on this trip?

Those are important questions you can ask yourself when we get there, rather then questioning me en route.

I believe I'm going to take a page out of Kant's book here and suggest that this should be rethought using the categorical imperative. Pro town play is what, if everyone does it, will result in best environment for scumhunting. What you are describing is a style of play that is inherently anti-town, and if everyone followed it, this game would devolve into an essentially random game of probabilities.

Saying that you don't need to be viewed as town is both wrong and will not help us in the long run. If you continue to vote and call people scummy without explanation, then you become infallible. This style is for scum only, and I cannot see any pro-town motivation behind it.

You can continue to get reactions in whatever style you want. You can yell in caps for the rest of the game for all I care. However, when you vote or express suspicion, you need to provide some sort of support.

[Dafish]

Park, how are you so sure of andrews guilt? Your contribution hasn't actually been all that much, contrary to what you seem to assume. In fact, you've "contributed virtually nothing" and use "short-ass posts." Is there something I'm missing?

[Dafish]

I don't like Andrius for posts like these:

I can't care less about anything you say Andrew. I wouldn't have been surprised if the policy lynch was on you.

Me neither, tbh.
But he's probably town.

Nobody Special is probably scum.

Somebody's "probably" going to have my vote for the entire day...

Could these "probably"s not be explained by the fact that we've only had 6 pages of game play? Does Andrius usually have stronger reads in the early stages as town?

[Dafish]

Nobody Special, what about it baffles you?

ABR, are you voting Hoopla for the assertion you quoted in #157?

[Dafish]

Nobody, he only talked about Nacho as far as I can tell, so it's not as weird as you seem to be implying.

Andrius, you missed the point. The "Probably" hate is because it's too strong of a read, not the other way around. Also, how does park's tunneling a policy lynch make him town?

@Anyone willing to answer, does parknourie's frustration with the lack of support for the andrew lynch read as forced or as geniune? I have an answer, but I'm curious to see what you all say.

[Dafish]

Hmm, I was interested in what other people had to say about it. But it sounds fake as hell. I see no logical connection between the start of his lynch on andrew and his frustration with people not following him.... what did he expect to happen? In any case, I think his reaction is purposefully being augmented.

Dafish or park are

probably

scum.

Hypocrisy?

Dafish will probably join once I give him a case that he can believe in.

An excellent idea which should be implemented immediately.

[Dafish]

What your posts contain seems to be as ineffective as what is in mine.

VOTE: parknourie

Dafish: Why do you talk about how much Fate is hurting the town while keeping your vote on Nobody Special, a lurker?

I'm afraid I don't see the connection between these two things. I read Nobody Special as scum, so I have my vote on him, what does my opinion on Fate's playstyle have to do with it?

Could these "probably"s not be explained by the fact that we've only had 6 pages of game play? Does Andrius usually have stronger reads in the early stages as town?

How will the answer to this question help you? Do you think it is a good reason to vote just because Andrius couldn't make a decision for a vote and usually does within 6 pages? What if he usually has stronger reads as town and scum? What I'm getting at is that your question is a perfect example of active lurking. Similarly, so is your next question in your last post, where you ask about parknourie. How would the information help you? Are you just going to go with the flow?

The answer will help me because I want to see exactly where the case came from, because I found "probably" to be a relatively benign addendum to Andrius's read (this answers your second question as well)

I don't think I quite grasp where the Andrius wagon has come from, and what the power behind it truly is. I'm asking this questions so that I can decide whether I want to put my support behind it or whether I want to dissuade people from joining. If that's active lurking, I should probably just quit MS now.

The parknourie question came from the fact that I found parknourie to be scummier than Andrius, and was curious to see why a wagon had not evolved on parknourie. I don't have two votes, unfortunately, so I can't vote Park and NS at the same time, but I wanted to keep park's scumminess in the forefront of discussion (especially what I thought was his scummiest move, which is the feigned anger).

[Dafish]

-Because Nobody Special is deliberately ignoring what is going on in the game. Fate seems to be paying attention and reacting.

-Because I haven't gotten the gut reaction to Andrius that I had to Nobody Special and Parknourie. I'm looking for something to grab onto. Townies help other townies (as Hoopla said earlier), so I'm looking for a case that I can then react positively or negatively to. I haven't made a decision on Andrius because I'm constantly second guessing myself. My read on Andrius isn't worth a vote, nor is it worth a resistance against other's votes.

-My question was leading towards a case, but I need more things to reference before I make a "case". I try to focus on one read at a time. If you think that's the "easy way out," then so be it.

Your vote is on Parknourie, yet all of your commentary so far has been on Nobody Special, and all of your interrogation has been of me. What's the deal?