Open 276- Friends and Enemies Mafia (OVER)
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Hoopla
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Hoopla
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Fair enoughflinter wrote:Since we know that Hoopla is scum, we can see if this theory is right by investigating Hoopla's interactions with Nobody Special and andrew. It is particulary interesting to see that they have never voted for each other, and that if one of them came under suspicion, the others didn't mention a thing about it and simply went on with what they did.
~ In case you wanted to know my actual reason for not confirming, it was because I was talking with mothrax about why the game was a Night Start, as that completely defeated the point of adding an extra VT to the set-up. If anything, that was probably worse than a 12p Day Start, as it then enables the possibility of a N0 mason kill. I'm glad we're day-starting, though.-
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Hoopla
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Kids say the darndest things.Nachomamma8 wrote:Vote: Hoopla
This is a policy lynch, and a serious one at that. When Hoopla plays, she doesn't play the game of mafia; she posts meaningless numbers and stuff about wagons and COASTS the entire time. She does this regardless of alignment, and she does it no matter what alignment she is. She is a very large detriment to whatever faction she finds herself on, and since chances dictate her being on the town side, we have to take care of this lynch before she begins her coasting and it's already far too late. I urge you to rethink the reputation Hoopla's gained on this site based on blind luck and lynch her based on the horrible play you can expect from her.-
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Hoopla
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Hoopla
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Hoopla
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Hey Nacho, quick question. You seem pretty hellbent on this policy lynch - I'm kind of surprised you're this serious about it. My question to you is, what was your purpose of entering a game with me? If you dislike how I play, and were going to come in and post this about me, and chase my lynch regardless of alignment, isn't that a little sadistic?
You know what I do when I don't want to play with someone, it's a really crazy thing, I don't join the same game as them. If you're just fishing for reactions, you're not going to get one deeper than this: Your meta on me sucks. I am not difficult to read. I don't rely on numbers or statistics - they are a part of my reads sometimes, but I use this as a base and weigh it for or against general tell-based cases I develop, just like you. A large part of my game resides in reading behavioural tells, and I think I am starting to find a healthy balance between gut/behavioural/logic. Since you neglected to offer the other side of my meta (my town game), I'll help you out and do it for you. Here are my recent town games;
Pick Your Power 4 - Role/Number based theory was present here, I admit, but these mechanics encourage that I feel. I didn't vote for a single townie all game, leading multiple scum lynches.
/Invitational: Pick Your Poison 5 - Another mechanic based game (at least initially). We gave the scum the Janitor and I got myself lynched Day 1 to waste the Janitor's shot on a townie. In my closing post analysing the game, I correctly identified 3/4 scum in a 20p game, based on behavioural tells and some wagon analysis.
Scummies Invitational - was an incredibly overwhelming town win. I'd like to say I was responsible for my fair share of it, though we were helped by some accurate vigging. This game had a different mechanic than usual too, but I definitely wasn't reliant on any statistical analysis - most of my reads were gut and behavioural based, with myself and Ojanen indulging in some wagon analysis too.
~ You make me sound like a VI who is an awfully toxic influence on games. I think you're being unfair, as in my recent games I've been exceedingly accurate. If you would like to read up my other games, they're all catalogued neatly in my wiki - feel free to have a look. Otherwise I can provide some more commentary on my other games if you still think I am awful.-
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Hoopla
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Hoopla
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Hoopla
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Hoopla
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Hoopla
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Hoopla
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Nacho, if I didn't know any better, I'd think you were flirting with me from all this forced attention. Lets actually take a deeper look at your argument;
I've provided several examples of games (and can provide even more) where I've either not used said methods or it has been a circumstancial factor in my analysis and scumhunting. The games where I have used wagon analysis, and "number-based" methods I've shown myself to be accurate, completely justifying that method of scumhunting.Nachomamma8 wrote:When Hoopla plays, she doesn't play the game of mafia; she posts meaningless numbers and stuff about wagons and COASTS the entire time.
The next part of your policy post, you state this;
To which ABR asks evidence for. You respond with Mini 1015, where I replaced in as scum;Nachomamma8 wrote:She is a very large detriment to whatever faction she finds herself on, and since chances dictate her being on the town side, we have to take care of this lynch before she begins her coasting and it's already far too late.
I don't drown the town with walls - I work hard on trying to keep the game at equal levels of participation, probing lurkers, and trying to quell spammers. In that particular game, I only had one post that could be classified as a wall, and it was due to replacing into a 36 page game. Besides, it's not like you haven't had games where you've walled (1, 2) or even relied on wagon analysis (here).Nachomamma8 wrote:http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... la&start=0
This game emplifies Hoopla's play perfectly. She is the master of walling the town with meaningless fluffposts. She will do this regardless of alignment, and she will not contribute to the game in any way. She will avoid from doing so with condensending tones and sarcasm. Notice how she responds to my policy proposal in the first place. "Kids say the darndest things", "Nacho and his silly fantasies"... :/. So it begins.
You state I will wall with fluff posts regardless of alignment, but you've given one example of one catch-up post from a game as scum. How about you find some wall posts as town - hard mode: wall posts as town where I wasn't successful in catching scum in (seeing as one of the conditions was them being meaningless, if they exist at all).
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Nachomamma8 wrote:Your accuracy doesn't change the fact you detract from games.
This sort of stuff makes your opinion look very weak, as it's completely dependent on scare tactics. The only town games you've cited where you could debate I've had an anti-town effect have been the two you've quoted; Pick Your Poison and Mini 918.Nachomamma8 wrote:
I've only played a few games with Hoopla, but I've seen what she does to games. And yes, I want this lynch to go through.Dafish wrote:Nacho, how many games have you played with Hoopla? Do you want this lynch to go through, or are you trying to gauge reactions?
The reason for each of these games being questionable isn't due to walling with meaningless numbers and data (your original argument) - it is due to poor gambits. Mini 918 I fakeclaimed as Day-Vigilante and got myself lynched, and in Pick Your Poison, I think my actions were justified, but you obviously disagree. These are the only examples of town play you've cited of mine you have a problem with, which is why I asked for you to rank those players, as players like Fate, DGB and ABR have a far richer history of failed or questionable gambits, yet you don't deem their play antitown. You even gambit youself sometimes - Mini 1044 was a very big risk fakeclaiming Day Vig.
Your argument has shifted from "meaningless data" to failed gambits - so which is it? Because Mini 918 is the only town game of mine that I think you have a case on. If you want to berate me for poor play there, then so be it, but I'd be careful because you don't exactly have the most stellar record yourself.
As for the original question;
Putting myself below drmyshottyizsik completely invalidates your opinion. He is a chronic lurker, spammer, flaker, fakeclaimer, claimer of roles in situations that are bad to so, poor sport, an out and out VI and has self hammered as town in LYLO - though, you've done that last one too, so maybe that's why you sympathise with him? Who knows.Nachomamma8 wrote:What would an acceptable arrangement of the names be in order for me to know what I'm talking about?-
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Hoopla
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Hoopla
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Nacho doesn't know if he's basing my "anti-town" play on number/statistical reliance or poor gambits yet. Once he decides what he's going to use for his policy argument, I can tell you which is worse.Albert B. Rampage wrote:
lol. Nacho has requested your list and I don't see one.Hoopla wrote:players like Fate, DGB and ABR have a far richer history of failed or questionable gambits, yet you don't deem their play antitown.
I think I have a more positive town influence than most if not all those players on that list, though. Maybe a couple of years, less so, because I was lynched often, but not now.
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UNVOTE:
VOTE: Nobody Special-
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Hoopla
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Actually, a more serious vote;
UNVOTE:
VOTE: parknourie
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Fate, what do you think about parknourie's ISO so far, and this post in particular;
parknourie wrote:I'm back...and find myself in a really confusing situation:
I'm still Positive on Andrew's guilt than any other player in this game. Contributing virtually nothing, yet with short-ass posts he is still around. Recently? He seems to be lurking the hell out of this room.
I'm staying put with my vote on Andrew for the moment.-
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Hoopla
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Do it little flinter buddy, since Fate is being a jerk.flinter wrote:I'm very tempted to follow Hoopla's vote on Park. Park's tunneling seems quite unnatural to me. However, I think Nacho's lurking is just a little too convenient for him, and I'll keep my vote there because nothing has changed there. NS's his play would warrant a policy lynch, I guess... But maybe he'll improve later!-
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Hoopla
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Hoopla
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Hoopla
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Hoopla
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Hoopla
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Hoopla
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I haven't manipulated you in a very long time - there must be some level of trust built up between us by now. Besides, this isn't manipulation, this is a call to arms - just good old fashioned town helping out town.Fate wrote:You're a bold scumbag Hoopla, but you can't manipulate me so easily anymore.-
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Hoopla
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Humm, this game has really fizzled out, almost coming to a stop. I think it's some of my fault - I haven't really got overly involved just yet, and going back rereading the thread has been taxing as my motivation drops off very quickly. I think other players might be feeling this way too, so I want to ask some questions to maybe start a dialogue with some people, which I'm hopeful could spark some interest in the game for me, and maybe others;
ABR; I don't understand your reason for voting for me, can you explain your gut read in any more depth than you've given us so far?
Empking, what's the Asterix hovering over your town read on flinter?
Elmo, DDD (and whoever else) - why do you think Andrius lurking/flaking is a scumtell? I have small amounts of knowledge of him, but this wasn't too dissimilar to a town game he played recently.
Newbie2010, I've liked your activity and your commentary so far. I know you think parknourie is scummy, but do you have any town reads at the moment?
Fate, this is probably the one time where your aggressive spamming to rile up players would be a good thing - we need more activity in here, and I kind of expected you and to a lesser extent, ABR to be more vocal and influential. Has Empking looked town or scummy to you since his introduction? I assume he hasn't done enough to outweigh Andrius' play.
Nobody Special, why was Empking dropping a town/scum list in his first post as replacement suspicious or even noteworthy from your perspective?-
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Hoopla
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Hoopla
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Hoopla
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Hoopla
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Parknourie being an absolute tool hammering himself gave us no time between L-2 and hammer to reassess the situation, right when it's the perfect time to be collecting it - you cannot blame me for that there. I don't think the atmosphere felt right for Andrius/Empking to be a scum wagon competing with parknourie on D1.-
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Hoopla
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Fate, you know what's going to suck? If Empking flips town, you've generated fuck all information from today's lynch, because an atmosphere for baseless/poorly reasoned votes was tolerated, to the point where you'll struggle to differentiate between them.
This is L-1 by the way, before someone stupidly hammers.-
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Hoopla
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Hoopla
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What, a dissenting opinion on the avalanche of Empking votes? That doesn't seem slightly alarming to you at all? To me, it seems rather likely that this wagon is scum-fueled, and if so, why actively bus Empking when NS is an equally plausible wagon? I think that indicates Empking is town.Nachomamma8 wrote:...and so it begins.-
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Hoopla
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Andrius lurked HARDCORE as town, nearly getting modkilled for such poor inactivity in PYP4. This is why he appologised at the start of the game to me, and though he broke his vow, I don't think those on Andrius for that reason is a very good one, because it is null at best.Nachomamma8 wrote:
I don't think Empking even has to figure in the equation. Andrius's play seals it for me.Albert B. Rampage wrote:It's a good wagon, Andrius was flakey and inconsistent. Empking hasn't done anything however so I am finding it hard to conceive how Fate seems so convinced he is scum. I'd say Empking-Hoopla is a strong possibility, or else Empking-NS. What do you think?
Hoopla calling for the counterwagon then making absolutely no effort to create one makes her a decent choice for scum.
Not seeing NS scum, though.
Can you explain what facet of his play was scummy besides lurking/flaking?-
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Hoopla
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Yep, me and that lack of effort;Nachomamma8 wrote:Hoopla calling for the counterwagon then making absolutely no effort to create one makes her a decent choice for scum.
Hoopla wrote:Empking is a sucky wagon, I don't think I can stop others so easily, but Fate, you should know better.
VOTE: flinter
Vote flinter with me Fate. You know you want my approval, and I will definitely approve of you if you help me.-
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Hoopla
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~ Fair enough.Nachomamma8 wrote:That's not effort to me.
I think it is easier to read a player when they've generated a significant wagon on them, because they're increasingly under pressure, and you have a whole grip of other players weighing in on them too, creating more links. Ireallythink this Empking wagon is wrong, and I think it is wrong more than I think anyone else is scum - this is a pretty normal experience for me, and I'm sure you feel it sometimes too.
We've had so few players genuinely wagoned, it's hard to base my other reads on anything other than individual behavioural tells, and I find them to be less accurate for me. This is why I am paranoid about Empking being lynched and flipping town, because if that happens, we've had almost no information to add from today other than this wagon.-
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Hoopla
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Do you really want me to explain why proxying my vote to you is dumb? I'll assume yes, because the last time I thought you weren't deadly serious, it turns out you were.Nachomamma8 wrote:Let's make a deal then, Hoopla.
You give me your vote for the day as long as I don't make you vote yourself or Empking, and I'll give you those wagons you so desire.
No one else should respond to this before Hoopla does.
I'm not saying I have no scum reads and no town reads other than Empking. There are several players I probably wouldn't look at pursuing today, and I have some scum reads that are stronger than others. Throwing away the responsibility of your vote completely undermines the whole point of generating other wagons, because that's one less person you don't get a read on from their vote.
I'm also not saying the be all and end of all of mafia is wagons - you should be prepared to lynch if the wagon looks good and the player is suspicious enough, but this one doesn't look good to me. And I think many on this wagon are taking the easy option without giving much thought to the game.-
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Hoopla
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It's mostly gut admittedly, but this is how we get things going. We build a wagon on someone deemed collectively suspicious, we take stock and analyse if this wagon is good and if it should go through. If so, good then, if not, we do the same thing on someone else.Fate wrote:Its funny because Hoopla doesn't even have a semblance of anything resembling a case on flinter
Does anyone else feel this way about flinter? Fate, what is your read on flinter?-
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Hoopla
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Hoopla
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Hoopla
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Hoopla
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Yes, we're married. But we sleep in separate bedrooms.andrew94 wrote:
i unvotedFate wrote:The worse vote is andrews, which goes without saying. DDD has also done literally nothing of note thiis game. Next would be AGMs for reasons ill post when he gets back, with nachos as the best
hoopla, do you know fate in rl or something-
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Hoopla
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I find his play ridiculously anti-town, and I guess I find it scummy too. I would be open to wagoning him if this is what you're suggesting, but he isn't my number one pick. Would you vote flinter?Empking wrote:Oyh yeah, coasting is also something I would call null if it leads to the player replacing out. The thing that causes the coasting is the same thing that causes the replacing out.
Hoopla: You find NS scummy, right?-
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Hoopla
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Hoopla
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If it's town on town banter you really shouldn't have been voting Almaster up until this morning. And if that truly is your belief, I'd expect you to have declared it once you thought it was true.Fate wrote:or what's it worth, you're scum with Empking.
You WANTED my spam posting a few pages ago to STIMULATE scumhunting.
And when it happened, "oh ill just ignore the town on town banter and not take a side because Empbuddy is voting AGM"
Lol.-
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Hoopla
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Hoopla
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Why did you have to find some way of messing with me if you were town?Nachomamma8 wrote:The Hoopla policy was a complete and utter load of bullshit.
Fate and I were hoping to draw scum together this game so we could mess with Hoopla's wagon analysis, but that didn't happen. And since I had to find some way of messing with Hoopla, so I attempted to policy lynch her.-
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Hoopla
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Hoopla
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No it isn't. He's town, and those on his wagon are wrong or scum. Vote for Fate.Albert B. Rampage wrote:Enough of this hogwash. We put Empking at L-1, nobody posted for 3 days, then Fate and AGM spammed the thread in caps, and we haven't discovered anything except how annoying it can be when players spam the thread in caps, so.......I think it's time to discover what Empking's alignment is.-
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Hoopla
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This is Fate's initial excuse for why he declared himself/AGM as town/town, which is a load of rubbish. He knows this too once I call him out on it, so he changes his stance to this;Fate wrote:I basically declared AGM was townier than Empking, aka town on town when I went back to voting EMpKing.
Fate wrote:Its how I get reads <3
Andrius claimed scum awhile back, remember? I just got side tracked by you post reading weird.
Let's get back on track
If these were his intentions all along, he'd have spoke up about it earlier - either when declaring a town/town read or the follow up post (first quote) where I questioned him about it. He's tweaked his story to pass it off as generating reads, but it's obvious to me, this isn't a Fate-ploy to generate reads - Fate isn't that good of an actor, his argument was real. These last two quotes are Fate's attempts to cover his tracks - those tracks being a poor attack and botched explanation for his motives. They are extremely forced and umprompted, which suggest he is a little worried that he might be seen as scummy and wants to make sure the town KNOWS these were his motives all along.Fate wrote:
I'm fucking bored. Anything to spice things up.Nachomamma8 wrote:thank god fate scared me for a second there"Forget all the silly other stuff! THESE ARE MY REAL REASONS!"
Hey, they're not, though. You're overcompensating and look super unnatural doing it. The fact that AGM is so obviously town makes Fate look even worse. This is one of the few times I've genuinely had a scumread on Fate, and I think I am right.
Vote for Fate.-
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Hoopla
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The argument could easily have been town/town or town/scum. It's in scum's interest to take advantage of situations that could be interpreted as scummy, which is what you could have done then. You could have also seen this as town, like you suggest. Both of these are real arguments, and you're not scummy for having a real argument.
What makes you scum is the way you tried to present your motives after the argument, which was obviously false and misleading. You were trying to downplay my questioning of you declaring a town/town duo, by pretending you were doing it just for the reads. I don't think that is true.-
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Hoopla
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Okay, so why didn't you declare that AGM was town when you switched to Empking? Presumably that was the point in time when you got that "read", right?Fate wrote:I was it just doing it "for reads" I was doing it because I THOUGHT AGM WAS SCUM and proceeded to argue with him until that read CHANGED due to SAID ARGUEMENT.
SO yeah I'm summarizing the argument as: "I did it and got a read"
So sure, I may have misspoke.-
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Hoopla
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That was the next post I was going to quote. You heavily suspected AGM in the previous post, and two minutes later changed to vote for Empking. Your entire AGM case being completely undermined in two minutes because Empking was browsing the forum is laughable.Fate wrote:It was IMPLIED.
But I had been mulling over the read ever since before I was getting ready to leave. Empking browsing the forum is what tipped it, because I KNEW he wouldn't post until I had called him out.
And if you notice in the very post above it I say "QUICKLY BEFORE I GO" I was running late to meet someone, and I DON"T have time "suprise surprise" to post all of my thoughts and motives with each post I make.
If this was TRULY your reason for why AGM was suddenly town upon you voting Empking, you really shouldn't have used this as your justification;Fate wrote:SINCE I HAD SAID THE BASIS OF MY CASE WAS FOUNDED IN EMPKINGS "TOWN" FLIP, then me going back to VOTING EMPKING, aka ME THINKING EMPKING IS SCUM, shows that I no longer think MY OWN CASE WAS VALID.
There is nothing here or in any of your subsequent posts that said your case on AGM was based on Empking being town. This says AGM looks more townFate wrote:I basically declared AGM was townier than Empking, aka town on town when I went back to voting EMpKing.thanEmpking, notbecauseEmpking is scum.
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If any of the other townies can't see how ridiculous Fate's story is, then they need to be shot. Fate is scum, and his story is falling apart at the seams.-
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Hoopla
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Why did you say this when I asked why you/AGM was town/town all of a sudden?Fate wrote:
...There is nothing here or in any of your subsequent posts that said your case on AGM was based on Empking being town. This says AGM looks more town than Empking, not because Empking is scum.
Read the CASE I was making against AGM. The PREVIOUS FUCKING POSTS showed that my AGM case was based on Empking being town. NOT REHASHING POSTS =/= SCUMMY.
Why didn't you say your read on AGM was dependent on Empking being scum?Fate wrote:I basically declared AGM was townier than Empking, aka town on town when I went back to voting EMpKing.-
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Hoopla
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He's probably not scum too, as optimal scumplay in that situation is to claim mason. If you thought Empking was under enough pressure as town to claim mason, then there was enough pressure to claim mason as scum too. From my experiences, scum have a tendency to pull the trigger earlier than town in claiming situations anyway - they claim as an attempt to defuse their wagon, because they have much more to lose if they are actually lynched.Fate wrote: ABR brings up a point I missed, Empking was atL-1for a fuckload of time. He's not a mason as is clear to ALL.
I don't think Empking was under enough pressure to claim either way if he was a mason/scum, but if you think he was, that probably implies he's a VT.-
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Hoopla
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Hoopla
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Hoopla
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Pretty much any player in this game is competent enough to know, that if you get to L-1 and are asked to claim or are threatened to be hammered, you claim mason. If a newer player or two is scum, they'd have been told this as scum in the QT. There are not any other possible plays to complicate the system, so it's entirely reasonable to believe that scum should know and would claim mason. Empking is hardly incompetent, also. He'd know to out a mason/get himself not lynched if he was scum.AlmasterGM wrote:
Eh, I don't really buy that argument. 1) Scum don't aways make the optimal fakeclaim, for multiple reasons (one being to manipulate you, seeing as you rely on optimal play a lot) 2) Fate and Empking might have planned for Fate to lay off the bus. 3) My suspicion of Andrius-scum is very strong and isn't getting outweighed by that speculation.Hoopla wrote:AGM, read my previous post on Empking please.
Not claiming mason either means he's a VT, or there wasn't enough pressure on him.-
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Hoopla
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What's the fucking point of having masons in the game then??Fate wrote:
I HOPE YOURE NOT ADVISING EMPKING TO CLAIM MASON IN THREAD, NOW ARE YOU?Hoopla wrote:Fate, it's entirely possible a mason could be run up to L-1. Two masons in 11 players (with 3 scum) is hardly a powerhouse town block, so it's not like they wield that much influence in the game. I hope you're not suggesting any player who claims mason at L-1 gets hammered though.
IM SUGGESTING ANYONE THAT GETS WAGONNED TO L-1 AND CLAIMS MASON SHOULD BE HAMMERED, YES.-
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Hoopla
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Hoopla
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No, I'm trying to keep the masonry intact. You're the one completely eliminating any possibility of Empking being town. You're playing really badly if you're town.Fate wrote:EMPKING IS SCUM. THERES NO EITHER. THERES NO OR.
YOURE TRYING TO OUT THE MASONS WITH THIS DISCUSSION, I SEE RIGHT THROUGH YOU.
SEVERAL PEOPLE WHO WILL REMAIN NAMELESS HAVE WAGONNED EMPKING SCUM TO L-1. THERES NO REASON TO THINK EMPKING IS A MASON.
AGM, we have Fate squirming. Don't let him get away with this. The Empking wagon really does suck.
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Also, I'm not going to post for a while. I've been spamming too much - I ask Fate to do the same too, so others can catch up and have a chance of reading and understanding what is happening, rather than being swamped with another page or two of argument that nobody reads. Please just do it if you're town, Fate.-
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Hoopla
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Hoopla
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Hoopla
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Okay, scrambling since we're in twilight now. I want to get my reads out there so you have something from me tomorrow, incase I die;
If Empking flips town;
Scum:
Fate
Nacho
flinter
Neutral:
DDD
Nobody Special
ABR
Town:
AGM
Newbie2010
~~
If Empking flips scum, I've been wrong about his lynch, and those pushing him would look a little townier, if only because there were so many other players to push, because this town has been sucking badly, it makes no sense to bus. If Emp is scum, flinter is my only real scumread. Though, I don't think this situation is likely to come up.-
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Hoopla
- Posts: 10788
- Joined: October 12, 2008