Open 248: Two of Four - Game Over

[charter]

/confirm

[charter]

Let everybody answer the question: I'm a Miller (y/n)?

And I'll be the last to answer, if you don't mind.

Lol.

vote }|{opa

Tripped up by his own cleverness. Thor explained in 24. His response is just utterly terrible as well with how he's defending it by saying it's a protown plan (which I would debate, but isn't the point) instead of defending why he wanted to be the last to claim.

The only way his plan worked if he was town, is if he was the miller hoping to catch scum claiming miller. What is the point of confirming a townie at the start of day one? Now, no scum will even try and fake suspicion on him if he is town. His plan is hugely beneficial to him as scum with his "I'll claim last" because if no one claims, then he claims and he's 'confirmed' town today and probably when we get to LYLO.

And I believe edmund is likely his buddy with his big explanation of going to vote whoever discusses the least. Pretty much just setting himself up to do nothing all day then policy vote a lurker at deadline. The way to avoid this, is to wagon him and not drag out the day. Unfortunately, I only have one vote

[charter]

How am I "in the middle and drifting"? Reach much?

[charter]

I'm not seeing how you can can play the newbie card with regards to terminology but you have this ultimate knowledge of protown claiming actions.

You haven't satisfactory addressed the reasons people have brought up against you, pardon me for not inventing a false reason for voting you instead of reiterating the good ones.

[charter]

Hopa's posts and suspicions are looking super forced. Like how he's saying Blak is scummy for unvoting, what does he think town would have done, keep voting for a no longer valid reason? His suspicions on me are constantly changing, and is defending himself against my vote (and others on him) by saying I'm wagoning instead of defending the points against him. So what if I'm wagoning? Why should I not vote someone scummy just because everyone else is using the same reason I'm suspicious of him?

[charter]

There's probably others, I'll check when I get more time.

[charter]

@charter - your read on edmund?

Scummy, like I said after his first post, and how he's basically sidestepping a lot of the Hopa issues (though in his last post he kind of addresses them), but I still find him suspect.

Hopa also is now defending himself by saying we shouldn't lynch him since he's the most active player. Being active correlates to being town the same degree as cheese to the milky way.

Now I don't even know how his argument against me has shifted. It's like every time I refute his point, he comes back with a new one. He says

That's scummy. Seems it hard for him to talk specifically. At the moment of ur vote "everyone" was Thor665 and ... wait a minute... only Thor665!
So if u town let me advice something, Mr. charter: think for yourself don't look at somebody even if ur thought that he's clever and more expirienced than u.

Ok, I said everyone and everyone was just Thor... And that benefits me as scum... how? I am thinking for myself, I thought the exact same thing as Thor, so I said that. I didn't think it because of Thor's experience, I thought it cause it's right. I don't see how this is even a point.


I'm fine with a hammer whenever. I loathe scum squirming after they're caught.

[charter]

Just got a new computer, I'll be able to catch up tomorrow for sure, maybe tonight.

[charter]

vote Blak

Thanks for making this easy for me scum. I need to reread, but off the top of my head I think the other scum is edmund or Thor, most likely Thor. I believe it was Thor who suggested massclaim yesterday, and it's unfortunate I wasn't around to quash that idea quickly, since it was just an awful, awful idea. You have one person who claimed miller (I assumed he was town yesterday, and barring a counterclaim, do today as well) which is essentially a useless role, the only point of it is to confirm someone. So you know the other role is something useful, as in it does something. So you're basically telling the scum who to kill at night. Even with massclaim not happening, clearly it told them who to kill. Hell, I could tell from Smashbro's post that he had something to hide with how he said no to massclaim and gave this meek justification, like he felt the need to defend his reason, which he would if he was a power role.

Time to go prove Blak is scum. It's so much easier when they tell you who they are, I don't have to do any thinking, it's quite nice.

[charter]

Also there was Thor starting out and fueling the Hopa wagon, then leaving at the end of the day.

[charter]

EBWOP: Charter, you voted black but then gave all of these reasons why thor is maf.

Reason for voting black?

He's scum, which he told me with his vote on me. If he's town, then he wouldn't vote me since he wouldn't be sure that I'm scum and scum could quicklynch me. His reason for voting me is nonexistant, so he knows scum aren't able to quicklynch me, because he is one of them.

[charter]

Yeah, sure. You realize you're caught and now you're backtracking.

[charter]

@Charter: Tunnel vision much?
And if you could, please explain something to me.
You said you're worried about scum quicklynching since I voted for you. We know for a fact that there are two scum in this game.
Now, there are two ways this could play out:
1) I'm town. This would require both scum to be online at almost the same time (which would be highly improbable) and make a risky play in order to pull it off.
2) I'm scum. That would only leave one other scum to vote for you, so that would require a townie to put a second vote on you, and seeing as how we've played so far, it doesn't seem to me like anyone would be willing to put that vote on you.

The way you seem to be viewing the issue of my vote on you seems to me like you know I'm town. Care to defend yourself?

This is a terrible defense of your backtrack. First off, I don't think any scumteam with half a brain between them doesn't plan a quickhammer for LYLO. Here's a quickhammer we pulled with no daytalking that was two minutes apart. I'm sure there's been plenty of others.
http://www.mafiascum.net/archive/viewto ... 0#p1933446

Your second point is just trying to defend your action by saying that I was in no risk of being quickhammered, which was exactly the justification I gave for you being scum.

How about you give me the town motivation for your vote, 'starting discussion' is the classic backtrack answer.

[charter]

Quick case on Blak, not much time so it's a little rushed.

Pretty non commital on a lot of his reads, leaving them wide open to shift if he needs to later. Here's a few examples.

That's the thing, I'm having a hard time labeling you as scum or newbie town. I was almost in your exact shoes in my first few games so that definitely seems realistic to me. I'm just having a hard time making up my mind.

@Thor: I really have no idea how I feel about smashbro. He's only made one post, and there's not a whole lot to take from it. I do find it strange, however, that he argues for the popular wagon, suddenly shifts gears and votes for Edmund instead for buddying up to Opa. Like I said, I'm really not sure what to make of it right now.

@Thor: The case on edmund so far revolves around the idea that he's buddying up to Opa, and in my mind that means the case sort of hinges upon whether or not Opa is scum. He seems to be at least trying to be pro-town, so I'm holding off on him for now.

Then he masks his vote on Hopa as a policy vote.

Okay, Opa, you want me to speak up?
I'm officially ready to hammer Opa at any time. If anyone else thinks I should wait, then speak up, change your vote, do something. I'll give... let's say until nine o'clock tonight, my time. That's twelve hours from now. If my mind hasn't been changed by then, I'm hammering Opa.

Well I hate to end it before everyone's had a say, but I've waited long enough. I've kept my word to wait til 9, now it's hammer time.

vote: }I{opa

Even acknowledges that he's trying to cut the day short.

Then he starts out today acknowledging we're in LYLO, and then immediately voting me for about no reason.

This actually looks really cut and dry. Now to go take a look at which of Thor/Edmund is his buddy.

[charter]

I'm not unvoting Blak, it's pointless. As is Thor and edmund unvoting. Basically all that matters is who CommieX votes, since if he votes wrong, the scum will quickhammer, if he votes right, they won't and we'll lynch the scum.

I've explained why I believe it to be a good reason and now because you two disagree with me suddenly it's a scumtell

I never would have agreed, I wasn't around to express my disagreement when everyone was talking about it yesterday.

Why do you think scum killed smashbro?

Cause they thought he was a PR and they knew the other power role was useful.

[charter]

@charter - do you always try to lynch Pie is Good when you play with him?
What's your read on edmund? You said you'd work on that.
Having two of three people unvote is arguably good since, by definition, one of us was wrong in our vote. I have zero issues with you holding your vote since I know one of you and BA is scum.

Why do both you and edmund want CommieX to decide the lynch for today? Yeah, he's proven town - all that means is we don't vote him, it doesn't mean he's gained mystical insight into who is most likely scum. You're being silly.

As far as I know, I've only played with Pie once or twice, I don't remember much about the games I was in. So I don't remember if I always try and lynch him.

My reread on Edmund hasn't happened yet, I'm still caught up with Blak.

Why do I want CommieX to decide who to lynch? He's going to have to vote for scum today or we won't get a lynch (unless scum bus each other) so it just makes sense to wait for him.

Wasn't that part of your reason for voting blak?

No, my reason for voting Blak is he knew I couldn't be quicklynched because he is scum.

[charter]

Meh...Well I guess there's no point in beating around the bush, the lynch is going to be blakadder or charter.

@Blakadder: Charter's already made a case against you. Your turn. Why should we lynch him instead of you?

Not only that, but he completely ignored it, like he's hoping it will magically go away or something.

[charter]

The main reason I'm hung up on Charter is that he's so dead set on getting me lynched. After not mentioning any suspicion of me at all on the first day, he suddenly is absolutely sure that I'm scum because I voted for him. Bonus points for that fact that he refuses to take his vote off of me after everyone else removed their votes.
In addition, he specifically phrased his rereading me as "going to prove BlakAdder is scum." (Post 172) If I'm so positively scum, couldn't you had given some proof besides OMGUS when you voted for me originally. Quick counter-question to Charter while I'm on the subject. What do you think makes your vote any less suspicious than mine?
In addition, in his reread of me, the only evidence he could muster against me was some drifting and turning my vote on Opa into a scum tactic. I can't see any valuable information that would have been gained yesterday with Opa drawing attention to himself so frantically anyway, there was no harm in my vote even if it eventually turned out to be the hammer anyway.

When someone votes you in LYLO and you are town, they are either scum or the game is lost. The game didn't end. That leaves two options, either I am scum, or you are scum. That leaves one option, you are scum. What do you mean, " If I'm so positively scum, couldn't you had given some proof besides OMGUS when you voted for me originally"? I did give a reason, quickvoting in LYLO, and I didn't make a case because I didn't have time. When I did, I made a case, and you ignore it until this, which I'd say is still ignoring it. Why is my vote any less suspicious? I didn't vote right out the gate in LYLO with zero reason.

Thor, I made a case here, http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 0#p2529320

To be honest, I believe his vote today was to try and bait someone in to following him and voting me so his buddy could quickhammer. I know that seems kind of far-fetched, but look at the rest of Blak's play...

[charter]

Sonnuva!

Guess I'll be hopping out of the airlock next. Though maybe now I'll learn if charter was serious about thinking massclaim Day 1 was a terrible idea.

I think that once the miller claimed miller, it was a bad idea. I don't think it would have been a good idea even if there was no miller, but I don't think it was actually a scumtell either. If massclaim had gone through, I'd have claimed a powerrole for sure day one, then argued to lynch others. I also don't think that claiming a powerrole, but not which one, would have been any better. Whatever happens at night, you free scum up mold a claim that makes someone else look scummy since they aren't locked in to the lie. Even if a real roleblocker blocked whoever made the kill, the scum could fakeclaim doc and it's still a he said she said.
As far as massclaim in general, I'm usually a fan, but in open setups it's different, ESPECIALLY in a semiish open setup like this. Normally you would massclaim early since it would be extremely difficult to fake a claim throughout the whole game, here the game is so short, it's not that difficult.

BA, voting right out of the gate day 2 was just a terrible move to make as town. You should never do that unless it's obvious who scum are. No matter who you voted, it could only end poorly. Either you vote scum and it gets twisted into a scumtell on you, or you vote town and scum quickhammer.

We didn't kill Commie because we knew his role was useless, but a roleblocker or doctor interfering with our kill would have been crippling.

Hopa, being active doesn't equate to being town at all. You pushing that looks scummy, since other people know this, and it's something you try as a last resort as scum.

@edmund, your first post was amazingly scummy. If I was town, I'd have never stopped trying to get you lynched over that. After that though, I think you did good.

Thor, you keep assuming that if there was a massclaim that scum wouldn't fake one. I would definitely fakeclaimed if massclaim went through, then you just add a whole new layer to have to figure out. If you figured it out and lynched scum day one (either the fakeclaimer or the other) town would be in a great spot, but if you don't, it would be very tough for town to win at that point. All in all, I don't think it matters much, I think it's crucial to lynch scum day one whether there is or is not massclaim.

The thing I was worried about the most, is that someone would figure out that Edmund or I HAD to be scum because of the NK, which is why I came straight out and said I thought it obvious Smashbro was a powerrole in order to hopefully plant a little seed in everyone's head. Once they saw that, they could say 'yeah, I guess that does make sense' and they wouldn't try and figure out how we knew to kill smashbro. In my head, I reasoned that the other powerrole would not want to claim day one and get killed, hence would be opposed to massclaim. How would scum have known to kill Smashbro since both myself and Edmund didn't advocate massclaim, that left a 1 in 3 shot of hitting right if all of us were town. If Smashbro had just said "no" it could have easily led to someone pointing out that scum would only have a 1 in 3 shot of NK'ing the other powerrole, so it stood to reason that at least one of myself and Edmund was scum.

Here's out qt http://quicktopic.com/45/H/JuswrFwqvQC

I selectively lurked hardcore in this game, there were so many times I wanted to post something, but then I had to post nothing because there was something that needed commenting on and I didn't want to take a stance on it, and I saw that if I just held out a little longer, it would just work itself out. These times include commenting on massclaim, telling Hopa not to go about hammering himself, pointing out some of the logic I explained up there, and I almost told Commie to unvote today .

Thanks for modding Fenchurch. Good game town.

[charter]

Even if there's no massclaim, there's a 2/6 shot of lynching scum day one. Massclaim really doesn't help here unless it's a doc and roleblocker, then a massclaim would be devastating, the roleblocker would have significantly better chances of blocking a kill. Else you just get a confirmed townie day two, which didn't help much.

The other thing that bewildered me, was why people were suggesting massclaim right at the start of day one. If you do it right out of the gate, then scum know not to even try and fake suspicion on certain people. I think it would be MUCH more beneficial to do it towards the end of the day, then go back to see if anyone was faking.