Open 242 - Friends and Enemies Mafia (Over!)

[Jahudo]

Welcome back zwets. Now quick let's lynch him!

Vote: zwetschenwasser

[Jahudo]

There once was a BM from UK,
Who rhymed whatever Jordan did say.
Though his ISO is a quick study,
It looks like an attempt to buddy,
Which makes him a good lynch To-day.

unvote;
Vote: Battle Mage

[Jahudo]

Battle Mage, it looks like you are trying to defuse your wagon with a joke. Do you think the wagon on you has no reasoning behind it? Where do you go from here to end joking and begin scumhunting?

*is a little suspicious of the sudden bandwagon that caused this turn of events*

You think the wagon caused BM to self-vote and claim? Are you trying to imply that there was an intention to get him to act like he's really about to be lynched? I think his post was in a joking tone and more his nature anyway. I think he was aware he wasn't in danger, but decided to claim anyway regardless of whether he is a VT or not.

[Jahudo]

unvote

Me and Jordan are good friends irl. We were just playing around.

Ah. I was wondering why the rhyming posts continued to happen. Real life friendship explains it. Not that I had much of a lead to begin with.

And on the topic of scum masonhunting, I would think the later part of the day is more helpful to them in finding masons because they may have to consciously join or avoid a mason buddies wagon. Unless they are good at distancing from each other. But I do not see how the RVS is a good for scum.

You voted without a reason right after you said we should skip the RVS.

BM's reason for skipping the RVS was not about getting to serious business quicker, but rather to avoid any insight into who the masons might be. Something in this was not clear to you from the reading? It was clear to me. It makes me think you maybe choose not to see, unless you want to argue that the scumtell is about him voting without giving the reason (or admitting there is a lack of one) up front? Because at that time how are we to know if he had a reason and choose not to give it up front? (something I used to get peeved about alot more).

[Jahudo]

smashbro_of_the_SSS hasn't posted either. Did you guys forget he was in the game too? I think they both just need a prod.

@Mod: Can you prod smashbro and shotty?

[Jahudo]

@Jordan: what do you think of haylen having a gut read on you already? do you have one on her?

And I don't know what to say about the misrep thing. That's honestly what I perceived.

Wasn't your vote originally about him talking about one person and voting another in the same post? And not about his opinion of the RVS? So does the first part still mean anything to you?

[Jahudo]

@Jordan: what do you think of haylen having a gut read on you already? do you have one on her?

translation: could you please OMGUS so I can vote you?

Unvote; Vote: Jahudo

What do you mean OMGUS? Between which two people?

[Jahudo]

I dont follow zwets thought process right now, so I'm going lurker hunting while I try to make sense of it.

Vote: shotty

we know he confirmed that he got his role, but he hasn't made one game post yet. start talking lurker.

[Jahudo]

Good summary, though I think mole has provided about as much content as Haylen. Although if this is a content contest we should all be losing.

@DarkLight: Why did you unvote Haylen? Are you accepting that the self-vote is null?

[Jahudo]

I just said, the case against me is EXAGGERATING my meta.

I thought your meta was 5 words per post.

[Jahudo]

I was not joking with gandalf, and what makes me not a hypocrite is the fact that he was only behaving the way I do to draw attention away from the good cases that were being presented against him.

I still don't understand what you meant by "translation: could you please OMGUS so I can vote you?", but how is someone that's been defending themselves look scummy for also commenting on something else?

Unvote, Vote Haylen

Until I get some ice cream
I'm not unvoting.

*hands molestar some ice cream*
Do you have any suspects yet? Because you're still on this random vote and haven't talked about who could be scum.

unvote

[Jahudo]

I don't follow you zwets.

[Jahudo]

Good summary? Could you quickly respond as i have to each of SSBF's points, and prove to me that it's a "good summary". It scarcely contains an iota of sincerity.

Sure, but the good summary stuff I was referring to wasn't all about you. It was about him taking a stand on everyone. I find that pro-town.

What's your meta on CSL?

Not sure why you're asking DarkLightA for his meta on CSL, when CSL already provided meta himself with DarkLightA. So basically, this question has already been answered by CSL, which makes the question kind of redundant.

How do you figure that? Why would Darklight's meta on CSL be the same as CSL's meta on Darklight? Presumably the purpose of my question was to compare the former to the latter.

Actually I didn't understand this part. CSL only said he played a game with Darklight, which isn't the same thing as saying you know how they're going to play. But whatever, it seemed like a harmless question to promote discussion on SSBF's part.

Because it only helps the scum ascertain who are likely to be masons.

Unvote, Vote: DarkLightA

Since you're apparently not in RVS, could you mind explaining your vote on DarkLightA?

I believe i already have, at least once. I voted him for buddying.

Yeah BM explained his vote in post 74. But since he never pushed this suspicion, its worth asking him if he still likes it, etc. But its true SSBF probably should have been on top of this one.

No reasoning at all. Complete OMGUS.

Did you read his later posts where he explains his vote on you? To be honest, your vote on DarkLightA was pretty bad from my perspective as well. And this is hypocritical of you considering that your vote lacked reasoning as well.

WRONG WRONG WRONG. My vote lacked STATED reasoning, but did not lack reasoning. It's clear that you haven't read the game, simply skimmed, decided i'm lynchable and tried to set after me. What other explanation is there for the fact your opening analysis seems to be almost entirely criticism of me, with very little comment on anyone else. There's no sign of any objective analysis from you yet.
You are voting for me though, right?

You're both right. BM is okay for not stating reasoning in the post, but BECAUSE he does that DarkLight is okay for voting him back without a reasoning for the purpose of not having a reasoning. Its not the same as attacking the player for voting you BECAUSE the vote is focused on the why and not the because.

Town:

gandalf5166, molestargazer, Jahudo, (To a lesser extend), JordanA24.

Neutral:

None so far.

Scum:

DarkLightA, Battle Mage, zwetschenwasser, (To a lesser extend) Haylen

Lurkers:

smashbro_of_the_SSS, CSL

My top suspect is DarkLightA. While I thought his attack against Battle Mage was slightly pro-town, he turns a complete 180 on his play starting with his horrible case on Haylen which he fails to support. He isn't even voting someone now, instead simply FoSing zwetschenwasser without really explaining his suspicion on him. The scumminess of his recent posts exceed Battle Mage's post.

Battle Mage is also suspicious. While his play is better later on, his early play was pretty scummy, and he's a decent candidate for today. Will support his lynch if DarkLightA doesn't get through.

I'm not seeing this. The majority of your post was set out as a pre-meditated attack on me, and then at the last minute, you back out and gun for DarkLightA? Gimme some examples of my play being "better later on".

I disagree with BM here. Half the post is about DarkLight, but for the sake of transparency SSBF is giving reads on everyone. I don't like BM's call that this is a pre-meditated attack, because I don't see it that way.

Post about gandalf coming up.

[Jahudo]

Gandalf was at L-1 with mole's vote actually. And for future reference I think gandalf should have been the one to claim, since a counter-claim would have been unlikely and at least the third mason could stay hidden for a little while. Since we know this is an open setup with verifiable power roles, there should not have been any worry over a quicklynch.

But what's done is done and, of course, gandalf and darklight are off-limits. Unvotes please.

[Jahudo]

SSSS
what was scummy about Gandalf being a follower? You only said that it was, not why.

I'm seeing the point on Gandalf being a follower, including his last post, so I'm thinking that he is scummy at the moment.

This next quote is a very empty statement. It basically sounds like you want people to know you are reading the game, which should be a given.

There are a few other's I'm watching, but nothing enough to note at the moment.

Maybe you want to look like you are trying.

gandalf has done little in this game aside from the random comment or two, which usually isn't a firm stance on anything.

Pot calling the kettle black. How do you rationalize this for yourself?
--------------------------------------

CSL
only thing he said of interest so far is this:

It's gandalf vs Zwet, eh?

This is Zwet's town meta, so he's town. Where is gandalf dragging that unneeded case on him to?

What is zwet’s meta? I don’t like how this statement is limiting the game’s focus. There’s no reason we have to lynch one or the other, but it’s a good position for scum to take if they’re both town and scum don’t want discussion on them or their buddies day 1.

--------------------------------------

Haylen

I don't believe right now that Jordan's scum. Gut feeling.

Jordan only made 1 post after you asked him if he was scum, to when you made this post. Did that post affect your gut read, or had you already had it for a while?

--------------------------------------

Molestar
why did you think gandalf’s agreement posts were scummy? People had already recognized him as a follower. Did you consider his motivation to do this as scum? Because you didn’t explain it like you did for the other tells in your case, and I don’t know why.

- "I agree with SSBF."
- "I agree with DarkLightA."

---------------------------------------
My reads are as follows: scum are SSSS, Mole and CSL. I don't like how SSSS and Mole went after Gandalf for being a follower without explaining why that was a case. Too easy for scum to throw a buzzword up without providing reasoning. I don't like CSL limiting his focus. It tries to stem the natural flow of discussion, which scum can use to avoid talking about each other. I also don't like how SSSS is trying to act like he's providing more contribution (by watching people) than he can show for it. Since he didn't even have reasoning for the people he talked about, I can't imagine how he'd have any explanation for why he was watching other people closer than others in the first place. So it looks fake.

Also I'm believing the masons unless they are counter-claimed, which I think has a .00001% chance of happening.

Vote: SSSS

[Jahudo]

I agree with BM on this one. I don't really have a zwet scum game in mind, but this attitude feels like playstyle he wants to have as town or fakes as scum. And I have a slight town read on him because I've seen him make a few decisions that don't look like the best scum strategy, or that there were other ones available. EX: he doesn't backtrack or take a wait and see stance when all logic is against him with the mason claim.

My one concern is that he defended himself using meta, which looks like a cheap shot. So he's only a slight town read now.

[Jahudo]

PLEASE STOP REFERENCING ZWET'S META UNTIL YOU GIVE ME SOME ZWET SCUM-META. Just had to get that out of my system.

Fair enough. My theory is that his personality is so apparent that he knows whether he's keeping in character, so he could pull these types of stunts (voting for non-counter-claimed PR) as any alignment. And since they wouldn't help him as scum, I don't see it as a point against him.

Who remembers a zwet scum game?
@zwet: what was your last completed scum game?

Empire at War is one example. Haven't read it yet.

And I don't care how fucking stupid he is, he's voting for confirmed town. That's scummy under any circumstances. Not to mention, he's not only leaving his vote there, he is actually trying to push a lynch.

And we all recognize this, so what motivation does scum have to do this? The only one I can see if to avoid voting someone else, and we've already seen zwet doesn't have a problem initiating wagons on people. Maybe he doesn't have a valid reason for the things he's doing, but they wouldn't help him as scum either from what I can see.

[Jahudo]

gandalf is very quick to mislead town into blindly believing the mason claim.

Are you going to counter-claim?

Actually, 1 day and 3 hours until deadline? I think I found a pro-scum reason for zwet to stay on gandalf. Stalling. He wants a scrambled lynch.

I changed my mind. Zwet is pretty scummy. Is there enough support for a zwet lynch?

I'll reconsider SSBF but I just haven't been feeling that wagon.

[Jahudo]

zwets, what'cha got?

That makes no sense btw. Zwet-scum would try and start a new wagon, if you're creditting him with the intelligence u seem to be.

I'm not saying he'd still try and lynch gandalf. I'm saying he'd direct our attention to his stubborn voting so that we are all less ready for this deadline and have to make a hasty lynch. That is still a cunning strategy.

Although I just saw the vote count and realized zwet has the most votes with 3. So if the hasty lynch was him then its not the best strategy.

Jahudo, i do have a request for you though. Please comment on SSBF's self-defined "attack" on me, for contradiction. He hasn't done anything protown all game. Can we PLEASE lynch him now??

His attack doesn't make sense because I see what you meant. The masons and zwet are off limits for separate reasons in your opinion. And the masons are off limits today without a counter-claim. But that doesn't mean there couldn't be a counter-claim tomorrow (in the off chance the hypo real masons are holding out for the 3rd scum to reveal themselves).

@SSBF: Do you still see it differently? Like, do you think BM ruled out candidates because he thought they were 100% town? I don't, so I don't see how it matters if he wants to rule someone out for today if they are not 100% town. It just means they are not a logical play for today. And the masons aren't, don't you agree with that anyway?

[Jahudo]

@Mod: no problem with the proxy vote. we need a majority.
Also, zwets vote should be on me.

I'm okay with either a zwet or SSBF lynch. I'll be here all day in case I need to switch between them.

unvote;
Vote: SSBF

@Non-voters who is your top suspect and would you compromise for either/both of the biggest wagons?

[Jahudo]

I still don't understand why you called me out earlier in the game.

And your first two reasons don't sound very convincing coming from you.

[Jahudo]

I haven't voted zwet yet because my gut is hitting me really hard and saying zwets is town.

But can we even get a majority by tonight? Zwets needs two more votes (one if I switch now). SSBF would need three as it stands.

Who all is here? CSL, Darklight, SSSS where are you?

[Jahudo]

My gut still says zwet is town (against plenty of reason), but in his position I could understand him hammering as scum. I think I was wrong about SSSS though. If he was scum he wouldn't have needed to place that vote, since no majority means no lynch.

Mole is my top scum pick. It doesn't look like he tried to understand the SSBF wagon at all, just discounting it for as long as he could. Meanwhile he doesn't go out and say he finds zwet suspicious when he votes him. Just a comment on how BM's read that doesn't mean anything and doesn't make mole stand a stand on his own.

Vote: molestargazer

[Jahudo]

@gandalf and CSL: What do you think about SSBF's early suspicion and later vote on zwetschenwasser? Does it look like distancing?

I think BM is town so if SSBF was trying to lynch Darklight or BM on day 1, I can find it reasonable for him to throw a scumbuddy into his top 3 and hope he didn't have to go full-on bus. He did seem to attack BM and Darklight more convincingly. One thing I'm wondering about is how SSBF agreed with Jordan's case. That would make it more difficult for SSBF to second-guess the case or change its tone, since he might have to be at odds with Jordan.

I didn't have much time, but I took a quick look at each.

It looked like you had plenty of time on August 20 to post in another game (that was not close to deadline BTW). Why couldn't you have spent an hour looking at the SSBF and zwet cases, and commented on them directly?

You had previously agreed with zwet's case (106 to 111) on gandalf. Then you say BM's reasons for finding zwetscenwasser were dubious? Can you explain that now?
Because from where I'm standing, BM was partly talking about the posts you also liked about zwets. So how are you not a hypocrite here?

And Jahudo, I was also 100% sure that SSBF was town. :/ Doesn't make me scum. I'm still wondering where the case was.

You make a valid point, but at least you explained why you voted zwet. Mole did not.

[Jahudo]

Hi afatchic. I think there's a good chance mole is scum because he seemed to have time to read the game and make a real post before deadline, but instead made that post where he just voted zwet over SSBF without saying what he felt about either player. Getting a majority lynch on day 1 was looking kinda iffy, so scum could have easily stalled or avoided the thread in order to get no lynch or push zwet over SSBF (if zwet is town, which I think he is).

I also figured there would be mafia between BM and the smashbro who got lynched.

How so? Just because they were after each other?

[Jahudo]

@mole: who are your top scum picks?

[Jahudo]

I still don't understand why you voted me that first time. And are you confused, because we've already caught a scum.

[Jahudo]

There is one scum in {mole, jordan} and the other is in {afat, haylen}. Sorry zwet, I'm not in either bracket

[Jahudo]

Hey zwet, are you just going to keep tunneling on me all the way to china, or are you going to explain your vote ever? And not that BS about vote hopping again, because you were always more guilty of that than I was.

Jahudo- why?

SSBF connections.

[Jahudo]

afatchic have you finished reading yet?

Haylen are you around?

I just have a gut feeling that Jahudo is scum.

Not enough to vote me? Can you see anything with what SSBF said that makes someone more likely to be scum with him? I think that's better evidence to go on than gut at this point.

[Jahudo]

- Note points 2 and 3, which in large talk about scumhunting. But really, any scum who don't want to die would attempt to 'scumhunt'.

One of those points you are talking about is this, right?

I find that scum use the "confused" gimmick to backpedal after recognizing a mistake.

Zwet attempting to scumhunt. Town-tell.

That happened right before a series of zwet posts that you liked, because you said this:

- Zwet's 106-111 discussion with Gandalf makes perfect sense to me, but he's acting confused.

So at that point in the game didn't you think zwet was scumhunting, and that it looked okay?

[Jahudo]

Someone would still have to counter-claim at some point. You would never lynch an uncounter-claimed power role in an open setup. So the best the scum could hope for is to look more pro-town late in the game. Which I guess is possible, but probably wouldn't work in most games. I would never expect 2 scum to claim masons that early, or 2 masons to avoid countering when you could trade 2 for 2. That just seems like bad play all around.

zwet, why aren't you voting right now?

[Jahudo]

Ugh, I said it was an open setup yesterday.

Gandalf was at L-1 with mole's vote actually. And for future reference I think gandalf should have been the one to claim, since a counter-claim would have been unlikely and at least the third mason could stay hidden for a little while.

Since we know this is an open setup with verifiable power roles

, there should not have been any worry over a quicklynch.

I take it you aren't reading me that close?

[Jahudo]

If you wanted to be the hammer, you're one vote off.

[Jahudo]

Im calling your bluff.

What was the point of this? You didn't think he'd actually hammer himself? I guess you've never played with him before?

[Jahudo]

Haylen, does zwet being town affect your read on BM? You had them paired together earlier.

I don't see what zwet was getting at with BM being scum. At first he said BM was playing his town meta, then changes his mind at the end of the day for no reason. Maybe it was a gambit. In any case I don't see BM as scum and can't find anything useful in what zwet said.

---------------------

gandalf, does my mole case do anything for you? Right now I'm thinking about looking for scum in either Haylen or afatchic. The night kill is giving me WIFOM paranoia about mole, so I'm taking a step back from that case for the moment.

[Jahudo]

gandalf, does my mole case do anything for you? Right now I'm thinking about looking for scum in either Haylen or afatchic. The night kill is giving me WIFOM paranoia about mole, so I'm taking a step back from that case for the moment.

[Jahudo]

The night kill is giving me WIFOM paranoia about mole, so I'm taking a step back from that case for the moment.

Can you fill me in on this one?

Scum should have killed gandalf last night but didn't. They choose SSSS, who was voting mole yesterday. Maybe they wanted to take out a threat to mole or make it look like getting rid of a threat to mole is more important than getting rid of confirmed town.

I'm not against lynching mole still, but I want to have a better idea of what Haylen and afatchic are first because I'm pretty confident one of them is scum (by way of process of elimination and SSBF connections mainly).

Though with Jordan, this is pretty null.

Yay for difficult to read players
I agree he hasn't looked very pro-town by himself, but SSBF's comments about him make me lean Jordan-town right now. Specifically with this quote:

Liked JordanA24's quick case on zwetschenwasser. Not only is he hypocritical in calling gandalf5166 out for vote hopping, he is completely wrong about this. Later explanation about this doesn't change my mind about this. He's an okay lynch IMO.

I think its more likely he would have piggybacked a townie's case than a buddy's. He'd feel more legitimate in taking that stance and maybe start to buddy to a townie in a subtle way.

[Jahudo]

Haylen why did you switch from zwetschenwasser to SSBF? About four hours from deadline on day 1 they both would have had 4 votes with you on the wagon.

Unvote Vote SSBF

Just because lynch is better than no lynch. I have deadline lynches.

So that can't be the only reason because when you left the zwet wagon you were making the largest wagon smaller.

[Jahudo]

@BM: I believe that Jordan (and to a lesser extent Haylen) are not lurking. What makes it an endorsement?

@Haylen: The question I still have is, why did you think SSBF could be lynched easier than zwet?

@self: NK WIFOM is silly so get over it.
Ok done. mole is a good lynch

[Jahudo]

CSL have you finished reading yet?

Then you're wrong. They are close friends of mine irl, and i know for a fact that they have not had limited internet access. Jordan is doing fantasy football for crying out loud! And you really think he's UNABLE to post here? Argh!

Ok and since you also think Haylen is scum then she might be covering for him But why would he want to lurk? Do you know past games where he did this?

If Haylen was scum, she would not want to get lynched by me, would know im probably going to keep a closer eye on her than most, and would therefore probably kill me asap. I guess she can elaborate on B if she wishes to defend herself in this way. It's not really appropriate for me to do so.

You specifically because you think she thinks you can read her better than most? Why do you think she would give you more credit than anyone else in the game (assuming Jordan is her hypothetical scumbuddy)? Do you have past games where you caught her?

Whyzat then?

Haylen is also a good lynch. I'm pretty sure one of you is scum just for how SSBF treated you alone. He called you town and Haylen an active lurker but looking back I'd say you had the same amount of content when he said that. And he didn't even put Haylen into his lurker category, he put her under scum. So either he was trying to distance from her and buddy to you, or he was trying to hide your lack of content while attacking a townie for it more than how he dealt with a real lurker like CSL. I don't know why he'd treat two townies differently here. Do you?

[Jahudo]

Welcome. We're not in lylo yet.

@BM: Who else would you vote today? Just haylen?

[Jahudo]

I don't understand the BM part of it. Scum-SSBF pushed for his wagon and he tried to stop a town-zwet lynch. That counts for something with me.

Gandalf, can you explain your CSL read? Not that I find anything scummy about him, I just don't know why you said he looked so town. He's looked null from his lack of posts.

[Jahudo]

Interesting catchup post. If CSL is scum then that looks like a rushed bus attempt. But if mole is town then I think CSL is also town for talking about other people's fluff like its not a hypocrisy.

I can hammer mole after yabba is caught up (unless he has some awesome counter case). If mole ends up town, haylen is scum.

[Jahudo]

I don't think I've gotten that opinion about my question phrasing before, but I also don't think I'm doing anything different than my normal playstyle.

@Jordan: what do you think of haylen having a gut read on you already? do you have one on her?

translation: could you please OMGUS so I can vote you?

Unvote; Vote: Jahudo

This actually is an intriguing remark brought up by zwet, what was the purpose of that question?

I asked him specifically because they are a couple. If haylen was feeling something from him that early, it might have been because she knows him personally.

How did zwetschenwasser make an interesting remark? I still don't understand the OMGUS he's talking about.

I dont follow zwets thought process right now, so I'm going lurker hunting while I try to make sense of it.

Vote: shotty we know he confirmed that he got his role, but he hasn't made one game post yet. start talking lurker.

Another post that garners attention from me. What is the purpose of this post?

Like I said I didn't know why zwetscenwasser was voting me, so I was stating that I would ignore his case until he gave me something to defend against that I could understand.

The other part of the post is about how I thought shotty was avoiding the game, and I think that is a good suspicion. I don't know why, so I asked. Maybe real life, maybe boredom. It felt like there had to be something because he didn't make a RVS post that took no effort, even though he had confirmed by PM and was posting elsewhere on the forums.

@DarkLight: Why did you unvote Haylen? Are you accepting that the self-vote is null?

And yet AGAIN a questionable question. See, what my issue here is that you seem to be setting up a lot of leading statements that try to somehow “trap” people into giving a wrong answer, i.e. if DLA gives the wrong answer to that, he’s a scummy backtracker.

I might have, but would that be an unfair attack? Darklight was not straight forward with why he was unvoting. We know he did not unvote to revote, because he didn't. Haylen gave him something to talk about, but he choose not to comment on anything related to his case. It was worth addressing.

I think that would be a good thing to do, because otherwise we don't know if you are changing your mind, taking a step back from the case to re-examine it, or realizing the case is unpopular and that it might hurt you. The first two are legitimate excuses, the third is not.

[Jahudo]

This is weird. Keeping gandalf alive for WIFOM doesn't make sense to me, because without a counter-claim there's not logical reason to lynch him. Either scum think he's not a threat to finding them or... I guess that's the only good reason. I modded a game (Cowboy Bebop Mafia) where a town mason fake-claimed to be buddies with a non-mason to help hide his real buddy for as long as possible, but Darklight's claim looks honest enough to me.
So anyway,

What does this even mean?

If Haylen was scum, she would not want to get lynched by me, would know im probably going to keep a closer eye on her than most, and would therefore probably kill me asap.

I don't see Haylen-scum, because she would've killed me by now.

Why would Haylen-scum, and only Haylen, find BM or CSL more of a threat to her than SSSS or yabbaguy?

Battle Mage pushed hard for Jordan's lynch, who was replaced by yabbaguy and flipped town. Major scumpoints for him.

That would mean BM didn't think his case would eventually work, wand I don't see evidence of that. Both Haylen and I were putting Jordan into hypo-scumteams. You were neutral on the subject, and gandalf was suspicious of BM which would go against the theory that scum are keeping gandalf alive because his reads are off.

BM still looks like town to me. I'm pretty sure its Haylen for stuff I've said, and CSL by default. I'll hold off from voting for now.

[Jahudo]

Turkey? That sounds like fun.

The first one is proven to be null. I'm currently living with Jordan, we've had the same internet problems, and the same Uni problems plus we moved in together last week. Jordan turned out town yet it was apparently scummy.

I didn't argue that for either of you, I said it was null. BM was the one who said Jordan would have replaced out if he was town and had activity problems.

Why am I scummy for changing my vote to scum at deadline? I wanted a lynch and it looked to be as though SSBF would prove to be more lynchable thus I switched my vote to him. The only possible way I could be scum here would be if my and Zwet were scumbuddies and I was distancing myself from him and then preventing him from being lynched at deadline. The next day, I then went back to my Zwet suspicions and called his bluff putting him at L-1. I did not believe that he would vote himself - this shows that my actions and thoughts have been consistant with each other. See, now Zwet flipped town, so there was no way that I could be bussing him.

The actual act was not scummy because it helped to kill scum instead of town, but it looks like someone had to have bussed. Your switch was more questionable than others because you haven't provided any physical evidence that you thought staying on zwet risked a no lynch more so than switching to SSBF.

I don't know why you are bringing up zwetschenwasser as a defense here, because it has nothing to do with my case. You vote switch looks like bussing, not trying to save a buddy.

I would also like you to point out to me where on earth I have connections with SSBF.

The part where he treated you and mole differently over the same scumtell. I felt he was likely reacting to town different than a buddy, I just picked the wrong interpretation yesterday.

Here's his quote:

Haylen isn't as scummy as my other three suspects, but I really wish she would provide more substance in the game. There isn't really much going in the eight posts she has. Of course as active lurking is my only reason for suspecting Haylen, I'll keep a closer eye out for her.

He says its not a strong suspicion, but it was enough to put you in his scum category.

The break in logic (that I'm seeing) came when he put molestar in his town category without defending why mole hadn't given any substance either. This is my opinion of mole, but I think it was obvious enough from mole's ISO that SSBF would have seen it too but chosen not to attack mole for it.

[Jahudo]

Also, I believe the point that BM is making is that himself and CSL are part of the few people onsite who would be a threat to me because they can read me so well. I've played in many games with both of them. I believe that BM would have a more accurate read on me that CSL can though because BM knows me irl and could therefore tell very quickly if I was stressed or desperate.

Ok that makes sense.

[Jahudo]

Def. not hammering here. We should wait for BM to return.

[Jahudo]

I'm gonna hammer, Haylen speaks the truth. Hence, she's definitely town. I don't know about you, but I don't bring up things that confirm my partner as scum in LyLo after everyone else has forgotten them(events, not player, since BM is obviously a suspect).

Can you elaborate on this? I don't get it.

Also,

Vote: Haylen

[Jahudo]

Haha, whatever scum.

gandalf, you should step back and look at both CSL and Haylen again. They may look town to you, but they have not done townish things. I can go over any post if you'd like to discuss something while we wait for BM to make a case.

[Jahudo]

@gandalf: part of my case is explained here.

Sorry but there's only so much a person can do when they're moving house.

Which is unfortunate because I believe you wouldn't intentionally lurk as scum. CSL, I'm not so sure.
But if you want a scumtell, I will continue to argue that your SSBF vote had the poorest rationale of the wagon.

Both SSBF and Zwet were even and you could have chosen either one. Your own ISO strongly prefers Zwet over SSBF because you are already linking BM to a Zwet scumteam. This shows alot of confidence if you are willing to look into the future before a flip. But you go against this confidence because of some perception that you have not been able to articulate. You have not been able to show us in this game how Zwet didn't have the support for a lynch. It doesn't matter that you picked scum over town, because the only way your decision makes sense is if you knew who would flip what.

Now look at the person being wagoned right now. After the mason claim event BM went after SSBF hard and argued against the competing zwet-town wagon. He didn't say the zwet lynch couldn't happen; he said it shouldn't happen. This makes no sense as a bussing gambit because he's defending someone that would still look scummy regardless of the SSBF flip, so BM could still look like he was attacking one buddy to save another. The townie cred doesn't work if he is not supporting the group's feeling on someone like zwet.

So both BM and Haylen helped lynch scum, but only one of them looked genuine doing so.

[Jahudo]

Right, zwet and SSBF were at equal votes without your vote. You could have bumped either one to 4.

And yes, CSL was the lurker. No telling if he'd login to make any stance, so you couldn't count on him to push a wagon to 6.

Which made zwet, darklight and SSSS the active ones. It was clear who zwet would vote for, so you could bump that wagon to 5 with yourself on it. And Darklight was suspicious of zwet, so you could have also bumped that wagon to 5 with his help.

But SSSS was still an unknown. He was active but hadn't chosen a side yet. So why not ask him if he'd like to join the wagon you preferred? Why make that choice for him by saying the SSBF wagon was the viable one?

Or did you also think SSSS was a lurker? Did you think the only way to get a lynch was for both you and darklight to switch wagons?

Heck, why didn't you ask me to switch? I had posted just before you saying a SSBF lynch did not look as viable. I hypothesized switching to zwet and putting him to L-1. But you didn't ask me to. Why not?

[Jahudo]

There's burden of proof with all our arguments of, "I think X is town so by process of elimination these two people must be scum", so I think that route would be unreliable.

My advice is to focus on SSBF. Only CSL was off the wagon so someone had to be bussing. What do you think of our timing and our reasoning for joining that wagon?

[Jahudo]

CSL I know what it looks like, but I'm not scum.

She probably didn't kill you because you got replaced. Otherwise maybe she would have so you couldn't read her. At least we know why Haylen kept BM around.

Haylen buddied to you like BM buddied to me. We were only able to see the other as scum, which worked to their advantage so they did their best not to disturb it.
Haylen has done some good bussing in this game, but not good enough:

I also note the major defending of Zwets that BM is doing. I think that if one of them is town, then the other has to be two and if one of them is scum then the other must be.

If she really believed that, she wouldn't have gone after BM after zwet flipped town.

She had no reason to suspect BM other than by process of elimination, which doesn't work if she is the scum.

Guys, I can pretty much prove that Battle Mage is one of the last two scum.

After CSL voted for him, nobody quick hammered.

Doesn't count if you are the scum!

Vote: Haylen

[Jahudo]

So please read her again. Tell me what alignment she looks like, if you say you can read her well.

[Jahudo]

My case is that Haylen's votes have made no sense and only scum would have her thought process.

And from what I can see, Haylen has no case on me other than her saying she is town. She has not looked into my ISO, or even BM's ISO back then, to say that our actions were scummy.

if you look at Jahudo's "case" on me, you will be that I have been backed into a corner where the only way to answer the questions is by resorting to WIFOM.

False. I have tried to get you to explain your actions and you have not. Since I never got a reason for why you voted SSBF that made sense, I kept believing you were scum.

RECAP: SSBF and Zwet were even in the vote count. Haylen's ISO shows she preferred Zwet. She instead picks SSBF based on nothing she has ever been able to articulate. The only explanation is bus.

--------

That's where my BM read came from during the game. I was trying to use logic one day but got forced to use my gut the next because the feeling was way too strong.

So there is no physical evidence to explain why you went from BM-town to, by process of elimination your other gut reads supplant him? Not big surprise.

RECAP: Haylen argues that CSL is confirmed town when I did not quickhammer BM. This has burden of proof fallacy written all over it, because it relies on her alignment. She has not proven her alignment to us. What has she done that is town? We've both lynched scum. She has not scumhunted; just make jokes in the early stage and use gut reads in the later stage. Her activity is not an issue for me, but her lack of contribution when she was active is a problem.

[Jahudo]

I was referring to how you confirmed me and BM as scumteam, CSL as town without a case. Yes, you were allowed to argue process of elimination but that means nothing to us.

[Jahudo]

The facts speak for themselves.

Here is a lie:

But you accept that my voting on BM was gut though and to me

that is a scumslip

because the only way you could accept it's a gut read is if I was town which would make you the scum. What you've basically done is say that I'm town, CSL is confirmed town, meaning you're scum.

Because you just told me your vote was gut!

Right here:

I was trying to use logic one day but got forced to use my gut the next because the feeling was way too strong.

--------

She calls this scummy but she did it too:

* He decides to lurker hunt rather than use the information we already had at the time. It seems as though he was only trying to sow the seeds of doubt rather than actually try to scumhunt because out of nowhere he suddenly decides to lurker hunt. SCUMMY

Um, you were lurker hunting shotty. Its a null tell.

She is confusing me with someone else here:

* He seems to take meta into account with Zwets posting, but is hypocritical when it comes to mine and he seems to not accept that my self-vote,

I never had a problem with your self-vote, and I only asked Darklight about it because he was the one that did and it became clear to the group you did it alot. How is this a scumtell on me?

This is a lie:

* He didn't seem overly worried about the masons claiming so early. He was basically, like, 'oh well...moving on', he then goes on to ask somebody why Gandalf was scummy. This indicates that he still thought he might be able to get a lynch on him despite him being confirmed mason. Why would town want a PR lynched? SCUMMY

I said they were off-limits and asked everyone to unvote. That's the exact opposite of thinking they still could be lynched. Liar.

Misrep here:

I don't understand why someone would self-hammer as town and if he had self-hammered as scum then that would have meant that we only had another left to find. Obviously this was so that he could shroud doubt on me later. SCUMMY

Misrepresentation here. You voted because you didn’t think he’d hammer. I pointed out that he had already tried to hammer. You didn’t care.

Another lie here:

Jahudo, did it ever occur to you that SSBF might have been buddying up to Mole, hence why he wasn't put in his scum category? I doubt it because you're trying to twist every little thing to make it look like me, BM an SSBF had a connection when I had no connection with any of them. Why not presume that Mole was the scum because he was let off easily? SCUMMY

Fail. If you have been reading the thread, you would know that I was trying to decide whether SSBF was buddying to mole or distancing from you.

[Jahudo]

No, I was town. Was there anything I could have said to clear me?

Anyway, good job scumteam. I wonder how much the N0 mason kill and early mason claim gave you confidence to distance/bus. I'm guessing it allowed you to play a little outside your comfort zone at least, Haylen.