Open 214 - Lovers Mafia (Game over)

[Mindgamer]

Camn
Except MindGamer. Who the f is that?

It's-a-me!

Hoopla, I took a quick glance at your completed games and I saw you don't usually use dice rolls for your first vote. Why did you decide to imitate Incognito here?

I haven't seen the dice roll before, but it looks interesting. I'm going to give it a try.

1)

Haylen

2)

Haylen

3)

Haylen

Original Roll String: 1d3

1 3-Sided Dice: (1) = 1

[Mindgamer]

Vote: Haylen

[Mindgamer]

Hoopla
Why did you choose to vote Haylen over one of the other four players with a vote already?

Haylen deserves some vote love too.

[Mindgamer]

Hoopla
Why did you choose to vote Haylen over one of the other four players with a vote already?

Haylen deserves some vote love too.

So, is it basically a random vote, then? Why Haylen over me? Why random vote at all, when there is other information to go on?

Yesss. Haylen over you because you already had a vote.
In general I like to make a vote at the start of the game. The posts on this page have had only light content in them, at least nothing to base a 'serious' vote on.

[Mindgamer]

Mindgamer, did you have a look at my past games too to see if I've ever dice-voted before?

No, because it was the imitation, not the dice rolling itself, that interested me.

[Mindgamer]

Yesss. Haylen over you because you already had a vote.
In general I like to make a vote at the start of the game. The posts on this page have had only light content in them, at least nothing to base a 'serious' vote on.

Firstly, I haven't received a vote this game. And secondly, why not put a vote on someone who already had one?

*checks* Hmm, my fault.
I didn't put a second vote on someone because... I wasn't in the mood to do that.

[Mindgamer]

Mindgamer, did you have a look at my past games too to see if I've ever dice-voted before?

No, because it was the imitation, not the dice rolling itself, that interested me.

Then why check to see if I'd rolled dice before? Why not check to see if I've imitated someone's early play?

If you hadn't dice rolled before it was clearly an imitation. Checking for dice rolls takes a lot less time and effort than checking for imitations of play. That isn't worth it since imitation is a small scumtell at best.

[Mindgamer]

Maemuki
Personally, I think that Mindgamer is taking the RVS a bit too seriously.

I don't know what the big deal is about the RVS but I will respond seriously to serious questions.

Haylen
As another side note: I had a drink (pint of pepsi) in the bar with someone on my course today ^.^ I feel very proud of myself...cause I'm scared of going out...And now she's invited me to spend some time with her family cause I don't get out much.

Yeah... that's really relevant. With all respect, but I don't understand why you would post this stuff in a mafia game of all places. I'm noting this as a general buddying attempt.

Incognito
especially coupling this with the fact that the Search function is down, which would make looking through games more difficult than it normally would. It's just a minor tell right now though.

Don't give me too much credit. It's not that hard since Hoopla has a nice organized Wiki with links to games where she was town and scum.

Hoopla
Really? I would have thought such a vivid imagination would be well capable of lying.

Since when is creativity related to the ability to lie?

Haylen
I'm suspicious of Mindgamers vote on me because he didnt have his eye on anyone else.

I didn't have my eye on you, I joke vote. Why should I include various people in my joke reasoning?

Maemuki
Also where is Mindgamer?

Right here.

Hoopla
Mindgamer reasons;

- Alright, his choice to not put someone on two votes on page 1, makes his vote not random, and deliberately cautious. Early play is telling.

Interesting how you call this a scumtell but ignore Haylen when she admits to the same thing later:

Haylen
I'm being more cautious now because I learnt not to be so vote-happy in a game that begins with less players.

[Mindgamer]

01:00 AM doesn't stop me from posting!

Haylen
Yeah, it was irrelevant. Can't say I really care though, I always post things like that in games - more so recently. I don't really think you can call it a buddying attempt when I talk to two of the players in this game via PM a lot, speak to another for about an hour a day on MSN and have previously had a few amusing conversations in scumchat with another.

If you have so much contact with the players in this game, it makes even less sense to make that post. Why did you not tell them on MSN/PM?

Haylen
You should include various people as a joke vote when you use a dice otherwise, there are a few people around like me who will believe you are tunnelling them

Tunneling in the Random Voting Stage? Seriously?

Incognito
Also, one other thing that's bugging me is people quoting each other without the name tag written on the quotes. Maemuki, Haylen, Mindgamer: Could you all begin using that? It's not that hard and it makes things a lot simpler to look through.

Fine. Tomorrow.

----------

*falls asleep and is unable to do anything*

More content tomorrow morning.

[Mindgamer]

Hmm, hmm. I'm not happy with Haylen's responses. Especially those about 'cautious' play. How are we ever going to find scum if we don't use our votes? There aren't even any nightkils from which we can substract information. Voting patterns are very important and even more in this game.

Incognito looks town to me. He makes solid points and I have an overall good gut feeling about him. My gut sucks though (refers to Mini 909 ). Hoopla and Camn look kinda neutral atm. There is not much to base an opinion on Maemuki on, but I don't like how she earlier said 'Where is Mindgamer?' and is almost invisible herself.

So I decided to treat everyone's votes as real votes rather than joke votes.

That's good. But it still doesn't explain why you think one vote = tunneling.

I think this is mostly because a Mindgamer/Maemuki pairing seems too obvious.

O really? How so?

----------

I think Haylen is by far the scummiest right now. That seems to be the consensus, and since Hoopla is ok with Maemuki hammering Haylen, I can as well hammer now.

Unvote. Vote: Haylen

[Mindgamer]

So what do we have... a Hoopla who doesn't hesitate for a moment. And only 17 minutes later Incognito appears to attack me as well. I posted in the middle of the morning guys (In American perspective), isn't it weird that you are both so quickly at the scene? Perhaps Hoopla informed Incognito of the situation? Likely.

How hilarious you guys aren't even discussing what I just did. Go straight for the quicklynch. I'm 100% positive at least one of you is scum.

Oh, and in case you really don't get it: Of course I was aware that I wasn't hammering. Who do you think I am? Donald Duck?

Unvote. Vote: Incognito

----------

This post is reserved. I want to wait for other people first. This post will be posted when at least four people have given their opinion or someone actually puts me at L-1.

[Mindgamer]

Gah... how annoying. One of you thinks I am Donald Duck.

Out of these three, I think Incognito is most likely to be scum. Against his big post nature, he makes a pure vote post at 3:15 PM (my time), as if he thinks my scummyness is obvious and no explanation is needed. But at 5:52, more than two hours later, he still makes a big post. I get the impression he doesn't want to be called out for not thinking during day two.

[Mindgamer]

Don't worry, Haylen. Camn put me at L-1, she didn't hammer me.

[Mindgamer]

Oh, and in case you really don't get it: Of course I was aware that I wasn't hammering. Who do you think I am? Donald Duck?

Then why did you do it?

Isn't it obvious? I was hoping for reactions like yours, reactions that were aiming for a quicklynch because I was 'obviously mafia'. Any person with rational townie thoughts would ask themselves what in the world I was doing. My plan worked almost perfectly, you didn't hesitate and soon another bandwagon'er appeared who wanted to profit and speedlynch me as soon as possible.
The only problem now is that there are three quicklynchers.

I expect Camn to be the townie, because she from the start of this game has showed quite the anti-Mindgamer attitude and I wouldn't be suprised if she just wants me out of this game for any reason. But that's not really a big tell, what's more important is Incognito's votepost to big post. Also, he is pushing the hardest 'Damn, I thought he'd be lynched by now'. Of course, the sooner I would be lynched the better since at any moment someone like Haylen can come in and stop the wagon with rational townie thoughts.

[Mindgamer]

These responses are mostly an attempt to take the attention away from the actual situation. But I will respond to the more interesting parts.

If I informed Incog of the situation, wouldn't that have to mean we're both already online?

I'm online multiple hours a day as well, but I'm not regularly refreshing MafiaScum.

Actually, explain why a Hoopla/Incog scumteam makes any kind of sense right now.

Already did.

what you're arguing is that the following sequence of events happened:

1)

You placed what would be a Haylen-town at L-1 (knowingly, according to you).

2)

Incog-SCUM switched his vote from Haylen-town to you.

3)

And Hoopla and I are scum buddies together with our votes on you.

Strawman.

I'm just curious as to why a me-scum didn't, um, I dunno, whisper over in Hoopla's ear in my Quicktopic to say PSSSSSSSST. Could you hammer the heck out of Haylen-town already? kthx.

Yeah, quickhammer out of nowhere without any strong accusations. That's something scum would do... of course not. Are you serious or have you given up?

This post is reserved. I want to wait for other people first. This post will be posted when at least four people have given their opinion or someone actually puts me at L-1.

Can you explain this part? I have no clue what you're saying here.

Being at L-1 is very dangerous, because it means a townie didn't think and voted me. If one townie did this, chances are another one will. To prevent this, I already made my post and was ready to post it if someone would put me at L-1.

The thing is though, I'm failing to see this as a town-gambit over retroactive justification. You left no hints or breadcrumbs, to indicate this might be a sneaky town plan, and when you've had your vote on Haylen for the entirity of the game, it's very plausible that you genuinely forgot you weren't voting her. Saying it's an 'obviously mafia' move isn't evidence that you were fishing for reactions.

So you really think I would quickhammer a wagon I was already on?

Even if this was a town gambit trying to fish for scum, how was it more likely to ensnare mafia over townspeople? I don't buy the rational townie explaination, because rational townies bandwagon scum when they make mistakes.

Except this isn't just a regular mistake. And even if it was, a rational townie would hear me out about it, not speedlynch me in record time. The fact that you and Incognito were keen on speedlynching me is evident by your little conversation here.

----------

Pizza just arrived. When I come back, I'd really like to see Haylen's, Maemuki's and Camn's opinions on the situation.

[Mindgamer]

Oh, no more posts?

I didn't even notice Haylen's post hahahaha.

So Maemuki, I'm expecting you to place your vote on me anytime soon. And then I'll probably bust a kidney and die of laughter.

Here's our champion IC speaking. Busting a kidney and dieing of laughter... At a loss what to do, scum?

^ He's hysterical. Did we break Incog? ._.

Yep.

[Mindgamer]

@Mindgamer:

How exactly is that a strawman? I gave a pretty good summary of what you're claiming to believe and what you're expecting the rest of the town to believe in order for a Hoopla/Incog scum pairing to make any kind of sense.

My case is short and simple. There's no need at all to summarise it. The Strawman is that you leave out all the details to make it look weak.

I was hoping you'd explain why that series of events makes sense to you, and why a Hoopla/Incog scum team wouldn't just take the easier route of just hammering a Haylen-town. It's not like Hoopla would really take that much flak for hammering Haylen when she's already said what she's said about her in her posts over the last page.

And it wouldn't be a quickhammer "out of nowhere"; Hoopla pretty much already justified why she would have switched to Haylen, and you even cited what she said in your "hammer" post.

Come on, Hoopla's arguments were in no way strong enough to justify a hammer that early.

Incognito is just blabbering nonsense now. I say we lynch him.

Even if this was a town gambit trying to fish for scum, how was it more likely to ensnare mafia over townspeople? I don't buy the rational townie explaination, because rational townies bandwagon scum when they make mistakes.

Except this isn't just a regular mistake. And even if it was, a rational townie would hear me out about it, not speedlynch me in record time. The fact that you and Incognito were keen on speedlynching me is evident by your little conversation here.

ATTN EVERYONE, I HAVE AN ANNOUNCEMENT TO MAKE:

You may be shocked to learn, but I knew Mindgamer's gambit was a gambit all along. I decided to play along with a gambit of my own! and tried to speedlynch him in order to fish for reactions to the wagon. As much as I looked scummy for trying to speedlynch Mindgamer, you'll be pleased to know I actually did it on purpose, which unfortunately voids Mindgamer's suspicion on me, because I

deliberately

bandwagoned him.

I therefore officially declare myself not scummy, and Haylen's reaction defending the Mindgamer wagon to be scummy. Mindgamer is also scummy for his reaction to my gambit.

Discuss.

Nice try, but you should've said this immediately to be trustworthy. Not post defenses first.
This post is clearly a lie. Scumteam is Incognito/Hoopla. I'm willing to support an Incognito/Hoopla lynch.

----------

Any questions, Haylen, Maemuki and Camn? I think it's quite obvious now.

[Mindgamer]

I really don't get it.

Spell it out for me, please...?

Ok, one more time in great detail.

The original plan was to fake a hammer on Haylen by voting her, although I was already on the wagon. Assuming everyone overlooked this, scum would immediately attack me to set up a second mislynch, while town would be confused at first, think for a moment, and come to the conclusion I was already on the wagon and question me for my actions. The differences in responses would make for great tells.
However, it turned out even better. Hoopla and Incognito knew the hammer was fake, but instead of questioning me, went for the quicklynch instead. This is scum behaviour, since they see the chance to lynch me for being 'obvious scum for wanting to quicklynch Haylen'. A townie thinks like Haylen does, why would I quickhammer Haylen? Would scum do that? Questions first, not a quicklynch.

Unfortunately, Camn joins the bandwagon as the third person, which ensures one townie is on the wagon. Hence I reveal my plan, to prevent someone from hammering me before I can explain my plan.

The next step is to look who from the three people on the bandwagon are the scum. Incognito comes to mind first, because he makes a pure vote post first, but later on makes a big explanation post nonetheless. This feels like he doesn't want to be called on an easy mislynch, since he was acting against his natural 'big post' nature. Furthermore, Incognito tries twice to restructure my plan into some kind of 'LULZ' reply, which is a heavy Strawman. Incognito's latest post also provides proof against him. All this time he has been arguing that my intention was to hammer Haylen, and I made a mistake in the votecount, but now:

And now indecision from Haylen?

This implies a Mindgamer/Haylen scumteam. However, if my hammer should've been real, that means I was going to hammer my own scumbuddy. Incognito's argument is flawed.

Hoopla-scum or Camn-scum was for some time not ensured, but Hoopla's gambit claim solves that problem. It is clearly an attempt to make my plan void. However, I immediately came forward with my plan, where Hoopla first made futile attempts to attack my plan. Hoopla's gambit is not believable because she waited so long. Also, she hasn't done any research at all since instead of sharing her supposed finds, she merely says 'discuss'.

This leaves Camn as town. Which is actually believable since she showed hostility towards me from the start of this game.

Why did you change your vote from Haylie to Incog? This is a lovers game, both would die.

Haylen is town. Incognito/Hoopla are the scum. This shows you have no idea what I'm talking about.

Also Mindgamer's reactions to that is just...lol. What a gambit. The gambit was so good, that even now I can't see it as a gambit.

Any last answers before a hammer is dropped on you?

Before you hammer, I want you to fully understand what my case is. At this moment you fail to see what I'm arguing. This is important, since my flip will make clear that my plan was honest. At that moment it's important that you realize my case on Incognito/Hoopla is legit and lynch them without hesitation. To exclude any risks, just go for the Incognito lynch.

So, does EVERYONE understand what I'm saying? Do you understand that after my lynch you will immediately lynch Incognito without hesitation? If Camn, Haylen and Maemuki all post they understand this, I will self hammer. But if you have any questions or don't understand something, ask now.

[Mindgamer]

Hoopla-scum or Camn-scum was for some time not ensured, but Hoopla's gambit claim solves that problem. It is clearly an attempt to make my plan void. However, I immediately came forward with my plan, where Hoopla first made futile attempts to attack my plan. Hoopla's gambit is not believable because she waited so long. Also, she hasn't done any research at all since instead of sharing her supposed finds, she merely says 'discuss'.

For clarification (because I think the point went over your head) my 'gambit' was not a gambit, it was a satirical parody of your idea of a gambit. It was trying to show you the faults of your claim, through a slightly more absurb situation.

The faults of your plan are that you need to lie, or deceive, or withhold information from the town to prove your point or discover the information you were chasing. The thing that gives me pause (and that you don't get) is that you're completely rejecting the concept of retroactive justification, which from an outsider's perspective looks more likely than it being a gambit.

On the slim chance you are town, you need to learn to take the outsider's perspective into consideration when gambitting, rather than just trying to prove scum to yourself. Because to an outsider, it looks more like scum fucking up, and finding a reason

after

to make it look like a town play. An example that often spawns this sort of argument are pressure votes and unexplained votes - even if these have pro-town motives, you need to explain what you were doing

after

the actual vote, which enables you to adjust and tailor your answer according to everyone elses responses. This doesn't work because it opens the door for scum to get away with doing something scummy (or poorly justified), and then say later it was for something else. See how this mode of attack just isn't efficient?

Ah, but you did not show me any faults.

Where did I lie? Where did I deceive? Where did I withold information? That's the genius of this plan: The fakehammer is completely up to your own interpretation.

Retroactive justification? I think my case is convincing as it is, but if you really are in doubt, I have the ultimate proof: My life. If you really won't believe me, I can die and that will prove that my plan is real. Scum needs two hits, town need only one hit. I'm willing to take a hit, I win as long as Incognito is lynched. It's the reason I'm willing to selfhammer as long as you guys understand you need to lynch Incognito.

This mode of attack isn't efficient? I think it's extremely efficient. We will see at the end of this game who is right.

[Mindgamer]

Can it get any more obvious? Incognito has been pushing pushing pushing since my fakehammer. And his post this morning didn't leave any doubts about his intentions.

Why isn't this game over already?

Seriously, here's the Cliff's Notes of what happened over the last page:

:arrow: Incog states that Mindgamer dropped the most obvious scum-tell known to a Lovers Mafia Game and is obvscum because of it.
:arrow: Mindgamer says "LULZ! I was KIDDING about that hammer (which was, "coincidentally", the obvious scum-tell)! That was a TRAP! And it caught YOU, person-who-knows-I-dropped-huge-scumtell! OMGUS: Incognito!".
:arrow: Hoopla and camn become even more obvtown than they were to begin with.
:arrow: And now indecision from Haylen?

Let's finish this already!

Push push push! Come on, hammer Mindgamer!
I have explained my plan before, Incognito understood it but claimed he didn't believe it. But now that I make clear my lynch should be followed by an Incognito lynch, Incognito makes a complete 180 degree. He even unvotes me to prevent my lynch!

I'm preparing a selfhammer, which makes Incognito go from 'push push push!' to 'no no no!'. Is there anyone who still thinks Incognito is town?

And now he aims for Maemuki. This is an attempt to break away from the Mindgamer vs Incognito focus. My death will reveal my plan to be honest, thus lead to an Incognito lynch. That's what he wants to prevent at all costs. A Maemuki lynch says nothing about my plan though. Incognito knows what he's doing.

I'd like to hear from Camn, Maemuki and Haylen now. Did I make myself clear?

[Mindgamer]

Clear as crystal.

Not to mention that by self-hammering, if you come up as town, it would've been extremely anti-town for you to do that, as it makes us one townie down. We'll be in lylo. One false move by a townie and the scum can quicklynch.

Apparently it's not 'Clear as crystal' since you still don't understand that after my selfhammer you should lynch Incognito without hesitation.

it really doesn't matter what I say you'll still continue to push against me.

Quite right.

If I get mislynched here when I'm obvtown, I swear I will never play with any of you morons again.

Nice AtE.

However, his reaction to Midgamer's.... thing was very town to me. Incog is a conservative scum... he wouldn't push a mislynch so hard.

Camn doesn't comment on my plan and puts everything aside for a 100% meta argument. You've GOT to be kidding.

You are, at this point, a liability.
We need to catch scum either now or tomorrow... and we can't do it without a lot of information on everyone.
People criticize me for this, but unless I see obvscum.. I tend to lynch people I can't trust in endgame.

Deadline is April 4th. If you want more information, wouldn't it more make more sense to ask Maemuki questions instead of trying to lynch her?

----------

These posts actually make me think Camn is the scumbuddy. Camn unvotes me without giving any reason. She doesn't comment on the situation at all, says Incognito is town with a 100% meta argument and jumps on the Maemuki with crap reasoning. Wow. But in the end, that doesn't matter. Just lynch Incognito.

I don't even understand the cases on me.

This is not the first time. Please take the time to read the thread and understand the situation or ask for a replacement.

[Mindgamer]

Last quote tag should be Maemuki.

[Mindgamer]

Hmm, hmm. Incognito, how sure are you Maemuki will flip scum on a scale from 1 to 100?

[Mindgamer]

Gah, still no content from Maemuki.

Haylen, what is your opinion on Maemuki?
Maemuki, what is your opinion on Haylen?

If one of you is suspicious of the other, I'd also like to know why.

[Mindgamer]

Maemuki has posted today... but not in this thread. I can't believe an experienced player like Maemuki would lurk this bad without asking for a replacement, except if it's some kind kind of scum tactic. As much as I'd like to lynch Incognito, Maemuki's behaviour can't be ignored.

There's no reason to continue this day if Maemuki just keeps on posting shit even at L-1. Maemuki, if you actually flip town, you're the worst non-newb townie ever imo. No offense. The fact that I think this only strenghtens me in my decision.

Unvote. Vote: Maemuki

[Mindgamer]

Vote: Incognito
Vote: Incognito
Vote: Incognito
Vote: Incognito
Vote: Incognito

[Mindgamer]

In retrospect the flaw in my plan was that I expected townies to behave like I myself would have behaved. Perhaps I should indeed play a few more newbie games to improve my understanding of the difference between town and scum mentalities.

However, Incognito, you're overreacting. While I admit my play in this game wasn't brilliant, attributing the loss of this game solely to me is wrong. I did give you a chance by voting for the Maemuki wagon, of which you said you were 95% sure. You shouldn't have been suprised that at Day 2 I voted for you with not only my 'case' but also the knowledge that you had been pushing very hard for two lynches, both on townies.

Anyway, what has happened is in the past. This was not a game of life and death, there's no need to insult eachother for a loss. Let's say I do something about my skill level, and you do something about your temper, and then we can meet in a future game under better circumstances, ok?
Au revoir.

Congratulations to Hoopla and Haylen for winning the game.