Open 214 - Lovers Mafia (Game over)

[Incognito]

Hi.

1)

Mindgamer

2)

Maemuki

3)

Haylen

Original Roll String: 1d3

1 3-Sided Dice: (1) = 1

[Incognito]

vote: Maemuki

, obvscum.

I'll start off this game similar to the last Lovers Mafia game I played by bringing to everyone's attention the fact that the scum can day-talk.

So Maemuki, do you wanna self-vote to end the game now or do we really need to go through formalities here?

[Incognito]

Happy birthday, Hoopla!

(I've always wanted to say that.)

PS Die-roll votes are scummy. They say nothing about you, which is anti-town.

Since when does anti-town = scummy? Also, if you feel they're "scummy", why have you still resorted to a

random

vote when you'd apparently have two completely separate actions that have been done so far that you consider legitimately scummy that would therefore be completely worthy of votes?

PPS... I'll bite. Incog, Why only 3 choices? (maybe they DO say something about you after all...)

Guess.
I'll give you 3 townie brownies if you get it right.

I think I know less about you than Incognito so far.

Can you clarify what you mean by this?

[Incognito]

Hoopla: That's what I thought you meant, but I wanted to double-check anyway. As for Haylen self-voting in a Lover Game, I'm assuming you're talking about the Lovers Game that I was in with her? If so, I think that instance actually gave her more positive attention than anything (from me at least).

This is a good point though. But surely the logic applies to you too Incog - why not vote camn for this oddity, rather than keeping your random vote?

The thing I called camn out for is an inconsistency, but I don't know if I necessarily find it scummy yet especially knowing what I know about camn's playstyle. So I didn't really see reason to change my vote to her at that time. In comparison, camn actually

did

classify two separate actions here as "scummy" but still decided not to vote for either one of those so-called "scummy" actions. Plus, Maemuki hadn't checked into the thread yet, and I wanted to at least see her reaction to everything before deciding what to do from there.

Except........... I didn't Random Vote, now did I?
I gave a reason and everything.

I guess. But surely our completely dice-driven votes would be "scummier" in your eyes than your unfamiliarity with Mindgamer and therefore more worthy of a vote, no? Especially if you actually do believe that dice voting is a legitimate scum tell.

Your guesses were all good guesses, but they were all wrong, sadly. I chose to vote for those three because I figured, why should the scum be the only ones to be able to have fun with loving? Why can't Incog-town get a lover too? I knew off the top of my head that those three were unloveable for various reasons:

1)

Mindgamer's a guy. I'm straight. 'nuff said.

2)

Maemuki's like 10. She's jailbait. 'nuff said.

3)

Haylen's engaged. And therefore off the market. Also, 'nuff said.

So yeah.

Formalities, if you wouldn't mind~

Confirm vote: Maemuki

What's your take on what's happened so far, Miss Mae?

[Incognito]

I like how you've kept yourself open as your potential lover if all else fails.

I learned from fat, black women and Dr. House that if you can't love yourself, how could you possibly love anyone else?


Mindgamer, did you have a look at my past games too to see if I've ever dice-voted before?

[Incognito]

Nyaha~ Personally, I think that Mindgamer is taking the RVS a bit too seriously.

Really? More seriously than say me or even Hoopla? Can you point out what makes you feel that way?
And more importantly, can you explain why scum would be more likely to take RVS more seriously than town would?

@camn:

What's contrived about that?

-~-~

At the moment, I can buy Mindgamer's responses. I'm receiving a minor town vibe from him in that I think town would be more likely to meta-game at this point of the game than scum would -- especially coupling this with the fact that the Search function is down, which would make looking through games more difficult than it normally would. It's just a minor tell right now though.

@Haylen:

If you continue to post loads of IIoA when I feel this game has had pretty decent content to comment on, I will vote you and seriously push for your lynch hard. Share your

game-related

thoughts so far.

[Incognito]

Camn, reaction gathering has become such an inherent part of all my opening votes that I completely forgot to list that as one of the reasons. But yes, that was one of the reasons too, obv. I'm sure you could recall me using a similar random voting technique in Mini 803 where I didn't explain why I chose the four people I chose there, and I waited to see how people reacted to my vote first. I figured I'd employ a similar strategy here, but I explained the logic from the joke perspective instead of the serious one. Ya get?

I don't understand your post 40; I've seen absolutely no empirical data that suggests that Haylen has a tendency to leave off her actual role when she does her joking claim stuff. In fact, the only time I've seen her do this role claim thing was in my Mafia 108 here and if you notice, she actually

did

claim her role in that post. I do slightly agree that her not answering your "are you scum?" question could be a tell, though.

Having said that, I'm concerned about the fact that you seem pretty set on your Haylen-is-scum sentiment but yet you haven't switched your vote to her. Reasons? Here, I'll even get the ball rolling for you -

unvote
vote: Haylen

Also, chance to attack somebody for no reason.

I think we differ in opinion then. In my experience, I've found that the people who try to push the game out of the RVS, or the ones who try to build mountains out of the molehills of the "joke vote stage" are more often town than scum. Have you seen otherwise?

[Incognito]

I don't want a PBPA. I want general thoughts about the game and about each player. Your PBPAs are generally too long and are, quite frankly, completely unnecessary at such an early stage of the game. Short, concise thoughts every so often are much, much better. Everyone has moods, everyone has feelings, but people still make it a habit to post. Do you think that every time I post, I have a huge, cheesy smile on my face and am listening to "I'm Siiiiiiinging in the Rain"? No.

Now, why did you pop back into the thread directly after receiving another vote?

[Incognito]

@Haylen:

I'm going to try to take your suspicions one point at a time.

- Mindgamer's vote on you was exactly like any other random vote that might happen at the start of any other game, except he used a dice tag to add what seemed like comedic value to it. Why does his "focusing on you" in the RVS make you suspicious of him?
- Yes, Maemuki clearly OMGUS'ed me. Do you find her scummy for doing so? If so, why?
- Have I ever not been aggressive in a game before? I think I'm playing fairly in-line with how I always play. As for me confirming my vote on Maemuki, you do realize that was borderline joking around, right? And my vote hopped to you for fairly legitimate reasons, don't ya think?
- Agree that camn's post 42 is slightly townish.
- And fair enough on Hoopla.

Why no vote on any one of {Mindgamer, Maemuki, Incog}?

@camn:

Yes.

You're being a bit more critical of me than I'm used to from past games. Are you scum here, or are you just worried about my ability to fool you as evidenced by Brrr Mafia?

[Incognito]

Don't understand how people are giving her town points for her post 42, though.

Speaking for myself, her explanation for the whole "seems contrived" thing made more sense to me. Before 42, I couldn't figure out what her issue was with my posts, and I thought she was just throwing words that just sounded good together against me to see if they'd stick. 42 at least explained that her issue with me had at least some basis to it even though it was unfounded.

Nope, a few posts earlier, you had said you were going to vote for me if I didn't post anything of game content in my next post, then you didn't give me a chance to post and voted me anyway. If you had thought I was scummy before that, why didnt you vote for me then? See what Im saying?

I noticed you posting elsewhere after I made that comment. That led me to think you were possibly lurking and deliberately choosing to be non-contributive, so I figured placing a vote on you might help bring you back into the game. Also, I wanted to see what camn would do when you had an additional vote on you. She kept calling you out on stuff and lamenting that you were prob-scum, but she still decided to not move her vote to you.

It's a 6 player game, I'm not voting until I'm sure I've caught scum.

3 pages in to the last Lovers Mafia game we played together, you had your vote on Kmd. Why are you being so much more cautious this time around?

-~-~

I don't mind the Mindgamer pressure. I don't like the fact that he hasn't really produced much in the way of content as of yet, and the minor town tell that I found earlier was just that -- very minor.

Hoopla, why didn't you mention that you and Mindgamer have some experience playing with one another before?

[Incognito]

Hoopla: Yeah, camn seems all right so far. I'd say the only difference I've seen in her play so far is that she feels more paranoid about me than she usually does in past games I've played with her, but I'm taking that to mean that if she's town, she's more concerned about me than she used to be because I tricked her when I was scum in the recently completed Brr Mafia.

As for her as scum, I think she's just generally not as firm with her suspicions as she is when she's town. My experience with a her-scum is fairly limited though -- I lost against her when she was non group-scum (an SK in cr3t1ns mafier) and when she was part of a two-person scum team in SpyreX's game where the scum's role PM flavor seemed to imply the presence of another team.

I've had experience with everyone here, except you I think. I didn't think it was a necessary detail. Why should I have mentioned this?

You seemed to have an issue earlier on with his aversion to bandwagons, so I thought you might have maybe questioned him on the last game you two played together where you were scum, he was town, and he was fine with joining a random wagon very early on. I didn't know what to make of the fact that neither one of you seemed to bring that up.

Also, I didn't realize you played with everyone else here. You and me played with one another (VERY briefly) in a Marathon Vengeful game. You hammered me and I shot you.

@Haylen:

Fair enough, I guess.

-~-

Maemuki's 60 does make me FoS not because of the unvote or the lack of vote but because she seems somewhat wishy-washy with respect to Haylen. Also, the thing that made her ":S" about Mindgamer doesn't really seem too bad to me, so I'm not sure it's troubled her. Maemuki?

[Incognito]

How about we just lynch Haylen before she gets back?

[Incognito]

I think I'm getting impatient.

You should include various people as a joke vote when you use a dice otherwise, there are a few people around like me who will believe you are tunnelling them

I know this wasn't written at me in particular but this is such a terrible argument that I have to respond to it anyway. How could you possibly accuse someone of tunneling on you or actually

believe

someone's tunneling on you when that person only voted you during the joke vote stage? Is Mindgamer pushing for your lynch right now? Is he suggesting that we rile up the troops and have you hang? No. So explain how exactly he's "tunneling" on you. Mindgamer's vote can't possibly be the first vote you've ever gotten in the so-called RVS, can it?


Also, one other thing that's bugging me is people quoting each other without the name tag written on the quotes.

Maemuki, Haylen, Mindgamer:

Could you all begin using that? It's not that hard and it makes things a lot simpler to look through.

And place some votes down while you're at it. I don't care for this "cautious play" stuff when this is a

Lovers

Game with a bunch of experienced players, so I don't even see how any of you could potentially be worried about a quicklynch or something like that. L-1's in Lovers Games give the absolute most information that could possibly be garnered out of any other time during the game.

[Incognito]

See, this is exactly what I want. A more involved Haylen is a better Haylen. I'll try to keep this as brief as possible.

Tenner says either Mindgamer or Mae are your buddy.

So why not vote for one of them over me, more particularly Mindgamer who has an L-2 wagon on him and who therefore, at the moment, seems more likely to be lynched? Do you find me scummier than him?

You saying you'll vote me if I don't post content for one and then voting for me anyway.

I already explained this in my post #62 to which you responded to. I saw you posting elsewhere and decided to vote you because I thought you were lurking.

You said fair enough earlier to my response about being cautious and now you are attacking me for it.

Right, I said "fair enough" meaning I could buy your explanation; i.e. I could see why a hypothetical you-town might be more cautious here. That doesn't mean I like it as a playstyle, though. In my last post, I wasn't really attacking

you

specifically for it; I was attacking the cautious playstyle in general for Lovers Games because I think it's much less useful for gathering information for the town in this type of game. If you notice, my "attack" would also be critical of both Mindgamer and Maemuki because they've both been cautious here also. Instead of cautious stuff, I think votes, wagons, and L-1s are much MUCH better because they really let you see who really thinks what about each person, whose vote actually has some teeth to it (keep in mind we're dealing with completely dependent scum Lovers, so you can do the math from there hopefully), etc. The cautious method doesn't produce anywhere near that kind of info, imo. You're completely welcome to prove otherwise.

Quite frankly, I think you are being more aggressive than I remember you to be when we have played games together. I'll retract that statement though if I reread some of your games and find it be a mistake on my part.

It's possible, but "is Incog this aggressive as scum?" is probably the real question you want to answer before you begin citing meta for evidence.


As for the rest of your post, ok, so you claim that you personally don't want to go through RVS anymore and that you want to actually dive into the meat of the game, but I'd argue that pretty much everyone in this game looked at your first three posts here and thought "random joking chatter from Haylen" rather than "wow, this Haylen chick sure seems serious and non-RVS-y and stuff". So no, I don't really see how you approached this game with "serious mode" on your mind straight from the opening gates -- it looked jokey to me all the way up until the point you actually got a vote on you from me. Do you disagree with that? Also, don't give yourself credit for apparently helping us out of RVS -- I'd argue we exited that stuff on page 1 right around my third post of the game. If anything, you actually brought us

back

to joke vote stage rather than moving the game forward.

[Incognito]

EBWOP, just wanted to add something to clean that last post up a bit:

In my last post, I wasn't really attacking

you

specifically for it; I was attacking the cautious playstyle in general for Lovers Games because I think it's much less useful for gathering information for the town in this type of game

than a more assertive, gung-ho type of playstyle

.

[Incognito]

I'm really trying to cut the sophisticated words like "garnered" out of my game because I don't think I've ever used that word irl, but I can't help it sometimes.

camn: current thoughts about Mindgamer? You previously said you want him lynched -- still feel that way?

Haylen: Chainsaw? Seriously? So now I'm scum with Maemuki, Mindgamer,

and

camn?

[Incognito]

@camn:

Yeah, Idoknowwhatyoumean. Mindgamer's picked up on some minor things I might have missed, but he still feels background-ish to me. Curious to see what tomorrow morning will bring. And yeah, Maemuki does need to post.

@Haylen:

See, it's stuff like this that let me know you're just making up stuff as you go along:

It's four pages into the game >.> It takes me a while to sort my thoughts out. You might be scum with Hoopla too btw.

Your excuse here is that the game is still too young for you to find my potential buddy, but apparently the game isn't young enough for you to think I'm scum, period. If you're town, do us all a favor and re-read the thread to find some real suspicions. Because as of now, this cartoon summarizes you fairly nicely right now:



And to "garner" (not

gaMered

) something means to acquire or get it.

[Incognito]

unvote
vote: Mindgamer

[Incognito]

Damn, I thought he'd be lynched by now.

In case I need to spell it out for you guys: Mindgamer just dropped the absolute largest scum-tell that you could possibly drop in a Lovers Game. I'm about 99% certain he's scum, and that Maemuki is probably his buddy.

I'm assuming this is what Mindgamer thought the Haylen-wagon looked like:

Haylen (3) <-~ Incognito, camn, Hoopla

Not voting Haylen (3) <-~ Haylen herself (obv), Maemuki, Mindgamer

The ONLY way a hypo Mindgamer-town could possibly feel that Haylen is the best lynch for Today is if he believed Maemuki stood a much higher than average chance of being her buddy. Why? Because {Incognito, camn, Hoopla} couldn't possibly be her buddies since we're fine with her lynch, Haylen obviously isn't going to vote herself, and Mindgamer would know he himself is town meaning the odd person out would be Maemuki

-->

she'd have to be scum with Haylen. Instead, Mindgamer said he has camn/Hoopla at neutral and "no clue" on Maemuki.

Also, this:

O really? How so?

Town doesn't leave questions unanswered before hammering.

Let's roll.

[Incognito]

Yes, this is true. Why do you think camn though?

[Incognito]

You rock. How cool is it gonna be when you're one step closer to being .500 as town?

[Incognito]

Hahahahahaha. This game gets better.

So what do we have... a Hoopla who doesn't hesitate for a moment. And only 17 minutes later Incognito appears to attack me as well. I posted in the middle of the morning guys (In American perspective), isn't it weird that you are both so quickly at the scene? Perhaps Hoopla informed Incognito of the situation? Likely.

I've arguably been the single most active player in this game posting at all kinds of intervals during the Day. Unless you could somehow justify that my "jumping quickly at the scene" is out-of-character from my already hyperactive posting style, the argument you've sprouted above holds little to no weight.

How hilarious you guys aren't even discussing what I just did. Go straight for the quicklynch. I'm 100% positive at least one of you is scum.

I've already explained why I'm pretty sure you're scum. And now you're claiming that your hammer was fake and was instead some kind of gambit? What could you possibly have been gambiting on?

Actually, explain why a Hoopla/Incog scumteam makes any kind of sense right now. Because, if you actually stop and think about why this argument makes absolutely no sense, what you're arguing is that the following sequence of events happened:

1)

You placed what would be a Haylen-town at L-1 (knowingly, according to you).

2)

Incog-SCUM switched his vote from Haylen-town to you.

3)

And Hoopla and I are scum buddies together with our votes on you.

I'm just curious as to why a me-scum didn't, um, I dunno, whisper over in Hoopla's ear in my Quicktopic to say PSSSSSSSST. Could you hammer the heck out of Haylen-town already? kthx.

Unvote. Vote: Incognito

Quick change for someone who was pretty sure I was town. What actually changed? My vote on you?

This post is reserved. I want to wait for other people first. This post will be posted when at least four people have given their opinion or someone actually puts me at L-1.

Can you explain this part? I have no clue what you're saying here.

[Incognito]

I didn't even notice Haylen's post hahahaha.

So Maemuki, I'm expecting you to place your vote on me anytime soon. And then I'll probably bust a kidney and die of laughter.

[Incognito]

Responding to multiple stuff here:

@Mindgamer:

How exactly is that a strawman? I gave a pretty good summary of what you're claiming to believe and what you're expecting the rest of the town to believe in order for a Hoopla/Incog scum pairing to make any kind of sense. I was hoping you'd explain why that series of events makes sense to you, and why a Hoopla/Incog scum team wouldn't just take the easier route of just hammering a Haylen-town. It's not like Hoopla would really take that much flak for hammering Haylen when she's already said what she's said about her in her posts over the last page.

And it wouldn't be a quickhammer "out of nowhere"; Hoopla pretty much already justified why she would have switched to Haylen, and you even cited what she said in your "hammer" post.

@Haylen:

All the reasons you've given are invalid. I've already responded to each one of them, and you didn't respond back so...?

And camn called me scum? Where? IIRC, she called me obvtown.

[Incognito]

How did I get broken? What are you talking about?

[Incognito]

Gawd I love a woman with a sense of humor.

[Incognito]

Haylen, I wanted a serious response to this btw:

How did I get broken? What are you talking about?

I know why Mindgamer agreed with you, but I don't see where

you

got that from.

[Incognito]

Reread your post, understand what happened over the last few pages (or, if you're scum, stop pretending you don't understand what happened over the last few pages), and then you might understand why I was laughing the way I was.

[Incognito]

And by "reread your post" I'm talking about the post you made that I was referring to in my hysterical laughter post. Your post #105.

[Incognito]

Why isn't this game over already?

Seriously, here's the Cliff's Notes of what happened over the last page:

:arrow: Incog states that Mindgamer dropped the most obvious scum-tell known to a Lovers Mafia Game and is obvscum because of it.
:arrow: Mindgamer says "LULZ! I was KIDDING about that hammer (which was, "coincidentally", the obvious scum-tell)! That was a TRAP! And it caught YOU, person-who-knows-I-dropped-huge-scumtell! OMGUS: Incognito!".
:arrow: Hoopla and camn become even more obvtown than they were to begin with.
:arrow: And now indecision from Haylen?

Let's finish this already!

[Incognito]

I don't know what to make of Mindgamer's recent posts. Claimed willingness to self-hammer especially in a Lovers Game seems really town to me, and the fact that Maemuki has claimed that she's willing to hammer also gives me a lot of pause as well since the pairing that best came to mind through these whole shenanigans was Mae/Mindgamer. Either Mindgamer really is town here or this is one huge bluff to try to divert the wagon away from himself.

Mindgamer/Haylen really wouldn't have made sense if his "hammer" was NOT a mistake after all, which is what the retroactive justification thing that Hoopla and I have been arguing this looks like hinges on - a supposed Haylen-town. So even though Haylen's defense of Mindgamer absolutely reeks of her seeming like a potential buddy, that pairing really wouldn't make sense in the big picture.

-~-~

Just to respond to Mindgamer because he keeps bring this point up, and I want to clarify my position here:

Incognito comes to mind first, because he makes a pure vote post first, but later on makes a big explanation post nonetheless. This feels like he doesn't want to be called on an easy mislynch, since he was acting against his natural 'big post' nature.

This interpretation of my actions doesn't really make much sense. If a hypo me-scum could pump out a "large post" that explains why I switched my vote to you, wouldn't it make sense for me to have just done it during the initial vote switch rather than the following post? Especially if a me-scum actually wanted to just be convincing enough to get you mislynched and to make myself seem as innocuous as possible?

The better explanation is the one that's the real reason: I thought your scum-tell was so obvious that I felt it likely didn't need further explanation from me for you to get enough votes required for a lynch. Then I realized that it might not be as obvious to others as it was to me, so I decided to explain it so that you actually

could

be guaranteed to get the votes I wanted you to get. Simple as that.

Anyway,

unvote

for now. I don't want you self-hammering, and I'm beginning to consider a new possibility. Let me respond to other issues in a separate post.

[Incognito]

And now indecision from Haylen?

Sorry, you're going to need to provide evidence for that.

You can't be serious, can you?

Here:

^ He's hysterical. Did we break Incog? ._.

I'm spusicuous of Incognito definately for reasons I have given and Mindgamer's case against him has further covinced me.

I am slightly suspicious of Mae because she's been lurking.

I'm suspicious of camn because of her insistance that Incog is scum and for her putting both me and Mindgamer at L-1. That's both of the major wagons. Yet she hasn't moved over to the Incog wagon yet. Coincidence?

People are confusing the Haylen .__.

If these posts don't look like indecision, then I don't know what does. In the above posts, you pretty clearly look like you have no clue what the hell you're talking about.

-~-~

vote: Maemuki

I think we should lynch her. If I'm correct about camn and Hoopla being town, then the only pairings I can see at this point given all the actions we've gotten so far are Mindgamer/

Maemuki

and

Maemuki

/Haylen. Lynching the common denominator gives us the best shot of hitting a scum and winning the game at this point.

Maemuki has been lurking like crazy, non-contributive, and when she mentioned that she was willing to hammer, she didn't even seem like she was attempting to analyze the whole situation -- the whole post was about Mindgamer, and she didn't touch on her feelings of me or Hoopla or anyone else for that matter. I personally am beginning to think the pairing might be Haylen/Maemuki actually. Haylen defends Mindgamer to seem "clean" the next Day and Maemuki is prepared to do the dirty work of laying down the hammer. Quite frankly, it doesn't matter though. Lynch the common denominator.

[Incognito]

Also, Mindgamer, if you really are town, I just need to say that everything Hoopla said is chock full of QFT:

On the slim chance you are town, you need to learn to take the outsider's perspective into consideration when gambitting, rather than just trying to prove scum to yourself. Because to an outsider, it looks more like scum fucking up, and finding a reason

after

to make it look like a town play. An example that often spawns this sort of argument are pressure votes and unexplained votes - even if these have pro-town motives, you need to explain what you were doing

after

the actual vote, which enables you to adjust and tailor your answer according to everyone elses responses. This doesn't work because it opens the door for scum to get away with doing something scummy (or poorly justified), and then say later it was for something else. See how this mode of attack just isn't efficient?

When you perform a gambit, you can't just bull-head your way at the people who reacted the most strongly to it and claim that they're scum without fully thinking about why they're reacting that way. If you're town, I'd really like you to stop and think about everything you've been saying and try to figure out which perspective (either pro-town or pro-scum) a reaction like mine actually makes more sense coming from ESPECIALLY considering the fact that you claimed you had a pretty solid town read going into the "gambit". Because if you really are town, your play has really gotten absolutely reckless and non-rational, and it could end up costing us the game.

The fact that you couldn't even pick up on Hoopla's joke gambit proves this further.

[Incognito]

I honestly dont see what you think is indecision.

Why aren't you voting anyone then?

Also, Haylen, take a stance already on Mindgamer. We all KNOW what the implications would be if Mindgamer self-hammered so your post 154 amounts to exactly nothing. What do you think his threat of self-hammering says about his

alignment

? Also why didn't you comment on my Maemuki vote?

Mindgamer:

Think a bit more about why I might be leaning towards changing my stance on you. Then respond to me. Because right now, you're either being tunnel-visioned town or scum and if it's the former, it really doesn't matter

what

I say you'll still continue to push against me.

[Incognito]

Nevermind, you're voting me. Either way, the rest of my post is still valid.

[Incognito]

If I get mislynched here when I'm obvtown, I swear I will never play with any of you morons again.

[Incognito]

No seriously. What the FUCK is the case on me?

[Incognito]

I don't have a number one choice for a scum team. I said I could see it being any one of Haylen/Maemuki or Maemuki/Mindgamer but that I was LEANING H/M given Mindgamer's reaction to being at L-1. I also said I wanted to lynch the common denominator of that bunch because if everything else is correct, then it should give us the easy win right here right now.

Tell me, what sense would it make for a me-scum to back off a hypothetical Mindgamer-town (who was at L-1) to try and start up another brand new wagon on someone completely new? Think about that logically. Seriously? This game is tough enough on scum as it is that Incog-scum is gonna go ahead and give even MORE reason for everyone to believe that another person is likely town just to start a wagon on someone else? Why wouldn't Incog-scum just keep pushing the Mindgamer case? It's not like it's not solid enough as it is. You can say this is all WIFOM, which it is, but just because it's WIFOM doesn't mean it doesn't hold any weight.

I'm going to bed now. Assuming I'm not lynched by the time I wake up, I'll deal with this bullshit later. Oh and re: the buddying up thing, I have a tendency to do that regardless of my alignment. Look through any of my past games and you'll see for yourself.

[Incognito]

Sorry for the outburst last night.

I'm ruling out myself, and I think camn is more town than you.

Hoopla, I hope you realize that from your perspective, camn would be the

only

person who could possibly be my partner since I'm now at L-1 by your hand, and I'd think it would be clear to you that I'm obviously not scum with any of the people currently on my wagon or Maemuki who's not voting me but who I personally am voting and want to lynch. This is one of the other major reasons why your logic of "camn just seems more town than you and therefore I vote you" so flawed.

And the process of elimination stuff is God-awful. Haylen was barely at L-1 because of Mindgamer's whole fiasco, so we couldn't even see what Maemuki's reaction could have been to that. Mindgamer reached L-1, yes, but for damn good reasons. And because those two people reached L-1, you're thinking that one of the people on those wagons absolutely has to be scum? What if we were about to be right about Haylen but because someone in this game pulled a really bad move of "gambiting" (whether it was actually gambiting or just a huge fuck up) we ended up getting sidetracked? Your logic is flawed because we haven't seen any role flips yet to actually use wagon analysis effectively.

[Incognito]

...Maemuki, you gonna post in here or just stay in GD?

[Incognito]

Oh, look. It's Haylen too. Who's supposedly V/LA. How nice.

[Incognito]

Bullshit.

[Incognito]

I wish the Search function was actually functioning. Hilarious that you popped back into the thread after I called you out about it yet again but you're so damn "busy". And you don't even comment on what's going on here. All you have is survival on your mind in this game.

[Incognito]

Any comments on me being at L-1, Mae?

[Incognito]

Camn: I should just point out that given the current voting situation and my stance on Maemuki, I should practically be confirmed town to you at this point.

Maemuki: I made my case on the bottom of this post. I don't know why you're making it seem like I've voted you without providing anything for you to defend against. Also, like Haylen, popping into the thread to respond to something when being called out about it is the very definition of active lurking. It tells me that you are following along with the game but are deliberately choosing not to contribute. That's a major scum-tell in and of itself. You still haven't really given us your thoughts about the current situation. If you're town and are claiming that our thoughts are misguided, maybe you should help us out by sharing what you're thinking.

[Incognito]

What are the interactions then? It's not like you pointed any of them. I can't guess, I don't have a lover to identify the interactions.

You've been following along with the game, right? If you read back through my posts (particularly the post directly before the one I linked to), you should know what I'm talking about.

And what's lol about that?

[Incognito]

Yes.

I'm being voted by the following people: Mindgamer, Haylen, and Hoopla. The people not voting me (not including myself for obvious reasons) are camn and you. I've already said I am very fine with a you-lynch which means we're extremely, extremely unlikely to be Lovers. So, from camn's perspective, no matter what her alignment is, I should be confirmed town because she knows that I'm not her Lover and none of the other people in this game make sense as my Lover.

[Incognito]

Mindgamer, I'm going to explain as calmly and rationally as I can why your plan doesn't work. And then I'll probably place you on ignore mode for the rest of the game because you'll probably just pick something out of it and say something stupid about it. All of this I've written below has been written under the assumption that you're town.

You are not a Cop. You do not have a Guilty result on me. So no matter how great of a scum hunter you think you are or how great you think your "gambit" was, your plan amounts to exactly nothing except you being dead. And if you're town, all that tells us is that your suspicions were genuine. Does it mean you were right? Hell no. So any town that would just proceed to lynch the person you told us to lynch directly after your self-hammer deserves to lose the game. And actually, if you were smart about this, you'd realize even further that your plan actually amounts to even LESS than nothing. Why, you ask? Because by self-hammering, you've completely robbed us of the information we could have gained from the person who decided to hammer.

Either way, you're not even at L-1 anymore, so I don't even get why you're still referencing the plan.

@Haylen:

It's nice that you're not even responding to me anymore:

Also, Haylen, take a stance already on Mindgamer. We all KNOW what the implications would be if Mindgamer self-hammered so your post 154 amounts to exactly nothing. What do you think his threat of self-hammering says about his

alignment

? Also why didn't you comment on my Maemuki vote?

Judging by your last few posts, I'm assuming that your answer to the above is that you think Mindgamer is town, yes? If so, I can't understand at all why you'd talk to Mindgamer in this roundabout manner about win conditions and the like rather than just trying to talk him out of self-hammering and showing him why it's stupid. Unless of course you're just scum.

[Incognito]

OMG guys! I came up with this really cool plan too! How about

I

self-hammer and then when

I

flip town, you guys can go after Maemuki tomorrow?

Pretty cool, right?!?!?!?!?111111

[Incognito]

Holy crap! I forgot about Mae

So fake. You two are the most obvious scum team to ever scum on MS.

[Incognito]

P.S. Maemuki, if you're trying to figure out how to hammer me in as unscummy a way as possible, the best way to do that is to probably write out a huge case and then to cast your vote at the end. People MIGHT actually think you put some thought into that.

[Incognito]

Hoopla, it's Maemuki/Haylen. Just try and convince tunnel-visioned Mindgamer to lynch one of those two so we can end this game already.

This is flawed:

Haylen/Maemuki

- I really don't buy it. During Mindgamer's L-1 phase which lasted almost 24 hours, this was one of Haylen/Maemuki's most active periods, where they both had the opportunity to hammer Mindgamer who was looking scummy as hell. They would have known they ran the serious risk of the noose swinging their direction if Mindgamer didn't die then. Why wouldn't they take this opportunity? Why would Haylen defend Mindgamer in this situation without Mae hammering? It's just an absurb combination that I cannot see being possible.

#1:

Haylen actually thought that Mindgamer was

lynched

when camn switched her vote to him. That's when she pumped out post #105 where she "in retrospect" explains why she couldn't see Mindgamer as scum. It almost seems like she's attempting to set up a future mislynch from all of this. THEN she figured out that Mindgamer

wasn't

hammered. She couldn't exactly go back on her "town read" of Mindgamer at that point because she was pretty much committed to it after her comment about his alignment.

#2:

Maemuki was

building up

to a Mindgamer-hammer in her post #139. This is called "making the bed". I called her out about this in my case against her:

and when she mentioned that she was willing to hammer, she didn't even seem like she was attempting to analyze the whole situation -- the whole post was about Mindgamer, and she didn't touch on her feelings of me or Hoopla or anyone else for that matter.

A town-Mae would have tried to see which pairing she thought could be plausible before she'd even CONSIDER hammering. But, as I mentioned above, she exclusively focused on Mindgamer's actions and ONLY Mindgamer's actions and threatened to hammer. She wouldn't just quickhammer because that would look too scummy. So building up to a hammer would make more sense and would seem less scummy. But she never got the chance to do that because the wagon wildly switched to me suddenly.

Also see this:

Camn: I should just point out that given the current voting situation and my stance on Maemuki, I should practically be confirmed town to you at this point.

wait, lolwtf.

This is more "making the bed". She's trying to blow up my quote to seem scummy so that she could finally hammer but when I rationally explained what I meant, she couldn't pin anything on me, and she vanished yet again.




Besides, Haylen already explained the scum-team's frame of thought about this game here:

He wouldn't have hammered in a game as scum, because in a lovers game, it would lead to him being under immediate suspicion tomorrow.

The scum have been too timid and non-existent to hammer.

[Incognito]

I was gonna say 90% but then I saw this. I'm gonna go out on a limb and say 95% sure.

I scum hunt looking for a collection of town tells and scum tells. Maemuki only dropped a single, very minor town-tell in her first post of the game. Other than that, I've seen some major scum-tells (lurking and guilty by association/process of elimination), minor-scum tells ("making the bed" x2), and neutral tells (seemingly fake anger) but not a single other town-tell.

P.S. Haylen has also posted at least once on-site today as well.

[Incognito]

Haha, and I didn't even check the Scummies thread. If I had two votes, I'd almost certainly be hammering her right now.

plz.

[Incognito]

Excuses, excuses... more excuses.

Totally not commenting on the current situation.

Oh.

[Incognito]

Haylen, what's your reason for thinking I'm scum again exactly? Why aren't you asking me questions and still trying to figure me out instead of just riding my wagon for the hope of a mislynch? More importantly, who do you think my buddy is?

This fake argument is cute to watch.


Camn, did you hit up the beaches yet?

[Incognito]

Mindagamer, I am suspicious of Mae for the lurking and she could potentially be Incog's scumbuddy.

That makes loads of sense.

You've been overaggressive

I asked you to look into my playing history. Your findings were...?

the misrep of me being indecisive

But you were...

not giving evidence until pushed over the indecisive thing with makes me think more that it was definately an attempt at misrepping.

You didn't push me to do anything. You asked me where you were being indecisive and I showed you.

Inconsistancies with your votes.

Where?

Strawmanning basically everything I say.

Where?

Buddying up to camn and Hoopla.

I think they're town. I buddy up to people I think are town all the time. Explain why my buddying is more likely to be coming from an Incog-scum here.

It's never difficult to get a mislynch off of me and Mae.

It's not a mislynch if you're both scum though. And Maemuki hasn't demonstrated at all why we should think she's town. Interesting that you classify her as a "mislynch" now but when you were responding to Mindgamer, you said she could potentially be my buddy. Why would you attempt to tie her to me if you think she's potentially a mislynch?

[Incognito]

Mindgamer?

Ready? ... aaaaaaaaaand.........

action!

[Incognito]

WHAT?

[Incognito]

P.S. a bit too intoxicated to analyze this right now. We are in LYLO though, so obviously nobody should throw out a vote just yet.

[Incognito]

If you're town, I strongly suggest you unvote. NOW.

[Incognito]

I swear if it turns out to be Hoopla/Haylen, I'm going to take great pleasure ripping into you post-game.

[Incognito]

Vote: Incognito
Vote: Incognito
Vote: Incognito
Vote: Incognito
Vote: Incognito

Fucking moron.

Do everyone a favor and go play a few more Newbie Games before you ever even consider playing games with other people again. You COMPLETELY suck at Mafia. I'll have plenty more to say about WHY you suck at Mafia when I get out of class.

[Incognito]

I can't be nice, Hoopla. The guy

single-handedly

lost us the game because of some STUPID GAMBIT that supposedly proved me as scum. WHAT THE FUCK? You played well, Hoopla, but Haylen was EXTREMELY OBVIOUS scum. I only wish Maemuki got more involved and maybe I would have been able to clear her as town too the way I did with camn and Mindgamer already. Mindgamer's antics completely swayed a town-driven wagon on SCUM from the scum onto HIMSELF and then onto another townie and then another townie. And then he threw out the FIRST VOTE in LyLo without showing any kind of a thought process going on in his mind.

Seriously, Mindgamer, what the HELL were you thinking? You didn't even seem to comprehend the point that HOOPLA was trying to get at when she did her joke gambit. And I thought she explained that really well through parody even though she was scum. It was one of the main reasons why I thought she was town and why I thought the game would be sealed with a Haylen or Maemuki lynch.

[Incognito]

But if you could point out why I was wrong in some cases that would be great =)

You weren't scum-hunting. When you voted me, you just locked onto it and didn't continuously try to figure me out, which is something you would have done as town. You lurked (which you do as town but it felt different here). You called out practically impossible scum pairings for the flimsiest of reasons (at one point you said you could see a me/Maemuki scum team when I was the one who pushed her wagon to L-1 to begin with after switching it from Mindgamer. I can't fathom you believing that as town). After the RVS was completely over, you brought the game back to it and didn't comment on anything that happened on the first page in your first post.

Your thought process just didn't seem town at all.

[Incognito]

Incog, you played a solid town game, and I was really stretching to find any dirt on you at all - this became obvious to me when I was trying to link you to a potential buddy, but could only find camn, which was a longshot at best. I think you were too quick to confirm people as town in your mind, and should have pressured those extra players a bit more. I'm usually pretty flimsy when I come under forceful pressure as scum.

Thanks.

Thing is, I only really confirmed Mindgamer and camn as town - Mindgamer for the self-hammer threat and camn for the whole her-not-being-my-buddy thing and her not hammering me when I reached L-1. You seemed town enough, especially when you wrote up post 198, and Maemuki made herself look like a pretty obvious buddy to Haylen, so I figured there was no point in pressuring players more. It's a real pet peeve of mine when people lurk and then the active townies begin attacking each other just for the sake of attacking each other. It gives lurker scum way too much material later on in the game to misrep as being something "scummy". I'd rather just clear people and move on with the Day to see what happens from there. I really thought game would be over with a Maemuki or Haylen lynch.


Also, Haylen, as for chilling out, I would but that's also something I can't do here. I've been mislynched in the past, and I could go back to those games and say "yeah, I know why I was mislynched here" and "I could see why people thought this of me" and "I could have done this better". But in this game, I thought I played extremely well, and I honestly can't believe that anyone could have found me scummy here. Nothing I did in this game made sense coming from scum at all. I've thought about how the game must have looked from Mindgamer's perspective, and yeah, I probably would have checked MYSELF off as obvtown looking at things from his view.

Mindgamer would have probably lynched Jesus if he could.

[Incognito]

Also, sorry to burst into the post-game chat Sarag before you could call the game. Thanks for modding - you were efficient and ran the game very smoothly, well done.

qft.

[Incognito]

Incog calling everyone morons.

A lot of things set me off about this game haha. I don't think I had been this riled up about a game of Mafia in a long time. At least it showed me that I still have enough passion to actually wanna play Mafia.

I want to kill myself. Anybody wants to come and watch?

Don't do it, chica! It's not worth it.
I was expecting Mafia 108-Mae here and got pre-108-Mae instead. I was sad.

[Incognito]

Yeeeah about that:

Nocitogin (2:26:26 PM): Yeah...
Nocitogin (2:26:43 PM): I have some pretty decent reads so far though... I think.
Nocitogin (2:26:54 PM): Hoopla and camn seem really town.
CaffieneDeity (2:27:29 PM): Heh.
CaffieneDeity (2:27:39 PM): Are you just saying this because you think they're hot? :P
Nocitogin (2:27:55 PM): That's what's bugging me. It could be that.
Nocitogin (2:27:57 PM): Haha.

[Incognito]

In retrospect the flaw in my plan was that I expected townies to behave like I myself would have behaved. Perhaps I should indeed play a few more newbie games to improve my understanding of the difference between town and scum mentalities.

Even if you expected townies to behave like you would have behaved, what did you think of my follow-up reactions to your self-vote threat where I went as far as to unvote you and practically consider you confirmed town? In a game this tight on mislynches for scum, would you really expect scum to try and give even more reason for people to believe that you're likely town? Or would scum just keep pressing the same issues they had with your whole gambit?

However, Incognito, you're overreacting. While I admit my play in this game wasn't brilliant, attributing the loss of this game solely to me is wrong. I did give you a chance by voting for the Maemuki wagon, of which you said you were 95% sure. You shouldn't have been suprised that at Day 2 I voted for you with not only my 'case' but also the knowledge that you had been pushing very hard for two lynches, both on townies.

Well yeah. I said I was 95% sure because I expected a town-Mae to try to defend herself when she reached L-1, not ignore the game and post elsewhere until prodded. My case was solid, and I gave Maemuki plenty of time to respond to issues -- if anything I'd be more leery of the people who only half-supported the case against her like say Haylen. And I wasn't the only one who pushed the lynch of two townies either; your wagon reached L-1 at the hands of me, camn,

and

Hoopla who were ALL also on the Maemuki-wagon but the difference between us three was that I was the

first

to write you off as town, which should have been good evidence for you to believe I was town considering the Lovers Game mechanic.

Couple that with the fact that nobody really made sense as my buddy and yeah... you can see where I'm going with this.

[Incognito]

Incog is just mad that he got beat by girls

Actually, I'd rather be beaten by girls than guys. I have a bit of an alpha male complex, I guess.